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Bibliography doesn't mention this settlement as being in Chaonia. The title should be changed.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:30, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
all sources agree that this was a settlement of the Dexaroi, which were a Chaonian tribe, hence Chaonia.WP:OR. Chaonia is placed by scholars in the coastal Epirus, not beyond Pindus, which also is not in the terriotry of ancient Epirus (the eastern border of ancient Epirus is Pindus, while the northern border is Aous, Acrocerauni or Vlora bay). – Βατο ( talk) 09:43, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
@Maleschreiber: In this edit you added then passed hands between Illyrian tribes and the Macedonian kingdom until the 2nd century BCE when the expanding Roman Republic gained control of the region.
right in front of refs 2, 3, and 4, making it seem like this statement is sourced to refs 2, 3 and 4. Yet, none of the three sources back what you added. This is
WP:HIJACK. I will AGF this time, but please don't do that again.
Khirurg (
talk)
02:11, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Regarding the location, no one knows where this place was located. It's remains haven't been found. The only thing we know was that it was a settlement of the Chaonians, hence Chaonia. That's it. Khirurg ( talk) 02:19, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
After 350 BC Illyrian towns are believed to have become established at Lissus (Lezha) and Shkoder and in the interior at Antipatreia (Berat) and also at Selce e Poshtme in the Shkumbin valley, a suggested location for Pelion.and Hammond, CAH (1994) vol VI, p. 429:
It is probable that Bardylis, unlike previous Illyrian dynasts, built a few fortified cities; for Lychnidus and Pelium in the lakeland were walled sites probably before the accession of Philip.– Βατο ( talk) 09:56, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
I propose to rename the article Pelion (Dassaretis), as a great number of sources agree on that, see Hammond and Walbank (1988), Ceka (1990), Wilkes (1992). Thoughts? – Βατο ( talk) 10:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
The Dexari lay to the south of the Enchelees and were thus in Dassaretis, an area to which it seems they gave their name. It is likely that Illyrian tribes occupied Dassaretis before the time of Philip II, because the Dexari disappeared and Alexander's campaign at Pelium was described as a campaign in Illyria... Pelium being somewhere in south-east Dassaretis. An Illyrian king, such as Bardylis, when he occupied northern Epirus for a time, and Pyrrhus the Molossian...must each have held Dassaretis for a period...As Bardylis...There can be little doubt that his authority ran in Dassaretis at that time.Also:
Pomponius Mela (...) put the Pathini and Dassaretae as the most southerly Illyrians in his list, and Pliny (...) put them in proximity to one another: 'gentes Pathini et a tergo eorum Dassaretae...it seems that the Dexari disappeared and were replaced by Illyrian peoples which took the name of Dassaretai after they occupied the region, therefore those people were labeled in later times as Illyrian. However we should see other suggestions in more recent publications on the subject. – Βατο ( talk) 15:55, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Initially a fortified settlement of the Chaonian tribe of Dexaroi? If yes, can you please provide the relative quotes? – Βατο ( talk) 18:54, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Initially a fortified settlement of the Chaonian tribe of Dexaroiprovide them, otherwise it should be removed as per WP:OR. – Βατο ( talk) 19:25, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
It passed different phases of control: the Chaonian tribe of Dexaroi, the Illyrian kingdom, the Macedonian kingdom and finally Rome since at least 198 BCE.You have to provide a source that supports
Initially a fortified settlement of the Chaonian tribe of Dexaroi, otherwise it is WP:OR. About the Illyrian kingdom see Hammond (1966), Wikipedia does not need your original assumptions. – Βατο ( talk) 19:38, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Initially a fortified settlement of the Chaonian tribe of Dexaroiis a WP:SYNTH as we don't know if the Dassareti that inhabited Pelion were the Chaonian or the Illyrian tribe. As suggested by Wilkes (1992, The Illyrians, p.130):
After 350 BC Illyrian towns are believed to have become established at Lissus (Lezha) and Shkoder and in the interior at Antipatreia (Berat) and also at Selce e Poshtme in the Shkumbin valley, a suggested location for Pelion.Hammond, CAH (1994) vol VI, p. 429:
It is probable that Bardylis, unlike previous Illyrian dynasts, built a few fortified cities; for Lychnidus and Pelium in the lakeland were walled sites probably before the accession of Philip.and Hammond (1966):
The Dexari lay to the south of the Enchelees and were thus in Dassaretis, an area to which it seems they gave their name. It is likely that Illyrian tribes occupied Dassaretis before the time of Philip II, because the Dexari disappeared and Alexander's campaign at Pelium was described as a campaign in Illyria... Pelium being somewhere in south-east Dassaretis. An Illyrian king, such as Bardylis, when he occupied northern Epirus for a time, and Pyrrhus the Molossian...must each have held Dassaretis for a period...As Bardylis...There can be little doubt that his authority ran in Dassaretis at that time.Pelion was likely established by Illyrians. – Βατο ( talk) 20:17, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
What were Perdiccas' Illyrian victors doing meanwhile? Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated...( Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon (2011), p. 342) makes it even more evident, but you WP:JDL. – Βατο ( talk) 20:21, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Pomponius Mela (...) put the Pathini and Dassaretae as the most southerly Illyrians in his list, and Pliny (...) put them in proximity to one another: 'gentes Pathini et a tergo eorum Dassaretae...According to Hammond the fortified walls were probably established by Bardylis, see Hammond, CAH (1994) vol VI, p. 429:
It is probable that Bardylis, unlike previous Illyrian dynasts, built a few fortified cities; for Lychnidus and Pelium in the lakeland were walled sites probably before the accession of Philip.and Wilkes (1992, The Illyrians, p.130):
After 350 BC Illyrian towns are believed to have become established at Lissus (Lezha) and Shkoder and in the interior at Antipatreia (Berat) and also at Selce e Poshtme in the Shkumbin valley, a suggested location for Pelion.We don't know if it was a Dexari settlement when the fortifications were built, especially when this source Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon (2011), p. 342:
What were Perdiccas' Illyrian victors doing meanwhile? Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated...states that Bardylis' kingdom were the territory of Dassaretis. You are ignoring evidence by reliable sources with personal assuptions and adding WP:SYNTH content. Currently, the article is WP:POV and should be fixed. – Βατο ( talk) 07:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Nowere was the phalanx more adept than in the Illyrian campain of 335 BC against Bardylis' son Cleitos and his ally Glaucias near the fortified settlement of Pelion. The campain nearly saw Alexander trapped before his Eastern expedition could even begin, and so its topography, beyond Macedon's north-west frontier, has remained a fascinating problem. In 1974 Hammond sited Pelion at Gorice just south of the smaller Lake Prespa, but Sarantes criticized his choise and proposed a site north of Zemblak, slightly to the north-west of Hammond's location. Since 2003, after renewed autopsy, Winnifrith has made a decisive case for Zvezde, even further to the north-west, and has related it convincingly to Arrian's text. Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's, and "if Alexander had taken the wrong turning in southern Albania", as Winnifrith well points out, he would have been destroyed, so "Pelion is important for the history of the world".You can not ignore them. – Βατο ( talk) 07:52, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
was a fortified settlement of the Chaonian tribe of the Dexaroiis yet unsourced, since Roman times historians refer only that it was in Dassaretis, a wide region encompassing many Illyrian tribes. You are reverting the article to your preferred version misusing the sources and giving no proper reasons. – Βατο ( talk) 13:17, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's, and "if Alexander had taken the wrong turning in southern Albania", as Winnifrith well points out, he would have been destroyed, so "Pelion is important for the history of the worldand your reply was a revert and a comment that calling it an Illyrian site is "source falsification ", "quite disruptive", "like saying that Paris was a Nazi garrison". Your reply to Bato here is that him quoting R.L. Fox (an Emeritus Fellow of New College, Oxford) that this was an Illyrian site is "like saying that Paris was a Nazi garrison". I feel that I can't contribute much to a discussion that is moving forward in such terms.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Pelium should be situated on the high saddle of land overlooking Zvezde to the south, the Maliq plain to the west, the pass of Zvezde through which the road winds to the east, and only approachable from the north, which is where the Illyrian wall was build.A fortification and a short term occupation (Dardanian Cleitus burnt the site during his withdrawal) can't justify lead change: it's like saying that Normandy is a Nazi Germany site because of the bunkers built there... Alexikoua ( talk) 16:06, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
[
[5]] Cleitus had occupied Pelion, a fortified city to the west, and it was there where Alexander caught up with him
.
Does this make it an Illyrian settlement? As I've said this was a short-term occupation not an Illyrian settlement. Illyrians may have built a wall there during their very short presence, nothing lead-worthy. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:48, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Since 2003, after renewed autopsy, Winnifrith has made a decisive case for Zvezde, even further to the north-west, and has related it convincingly to Arrian's text. Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's, and "if Alexander had taken the wrong turning in southern Albania", as Winnifrith well points out, he would have been destroyed, so "Pelion is important for the history of the world.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:18, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Here there were some urban settlements such as Lychnidus and Pelium, and it is probable that they were fortified with walls in the time of Bardylis.
To sum up: 1. Pelium already existed there. 2. It was probably fortified by Bardylis. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:05, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
To sum upis your WP:SYNTH. In this case, Hammond's statements (1972, 1994) about Bardylian fortification of Lychnidus and Pelion are in agreement with other scholars of Illyrian history. About the "uprising", it is not my OR because the siege of Pelium is considered an "Illyrian revolt" (also "rising" etc.), you can find an example here: Hornblower, Simon (2013) [1983]. The Greek World 479-323 BC pp. 261–262. Unlike you, I base my claims on reliable sources that I have previously read. – Βατο ( talk) 19:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC):
since the town was prior to that a Dexarian center.again WP:OR, provide a quote please. – Βατο ( talk) 20:55, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
When he rebelled, Cleitus captured Pelium. Pelium was a fortified settlement on the border of Illyria and Macedonia, after Philip II expanded his dominion, he took the lakeland (which includes Pelion) from the Illyrians. – Βατο ( talk) 20:56, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
the Dassaretae possessed several towns, though none has yet been definitely located, including Pelion Antipatreia (probably Berat) Chrysondym, Gertous or Gerous and Creoniondeliberately exluding that it was an information that comes to us from Polybius, a historian of Roman times, here is the full quote from Wilkes:
According to Polybius (5.108), the Dassaretae possessed several towns, though none has yet been definitely located, including Pelion...Pelion as a town of the Dassaretae is attested only in Roman times, you can not use that information for the sentence:
Pelium was among the settlements inhabited by the Chaonian tribe of Dassaretae.which is followed by the WP:OR
It came under the control of Illyrian (or Dardanian) king Bardylis (c. 393–358 BCE). You are misusing sources with WP:SYNTH and OR. @Dr.K., I did not expect from an experienced editor like you to ignore all the issues presented in this talk page. Cheers. – Βατο ( talk) 13:44, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
While Robin Lane Fox states that Pelion was an Illyrian site. You can not insert WP:OR likeThe Dexari lay to the south of the Enchelees and were thus in Dassaretis, an area to which it seems they gave their name. It is likely that Illyrian tribes occupied Dassaretis before the time of Philip II, because the Dexari disappeared and Alexander's campaign at Pelium was described as a campaign in Illyria.
Pelium was among the settlements inhabited by the Chaonian tribe of Dassaretae.in a Wikipedia article. – Βατο ( talk) 15:34, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
And Cabanes himself agrees about the Illyrian Dassaretis and Dassareti. – Βατο ( talk) 20:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)Naposljetku, dodajem da dvije novije studije predstavljene na međunarodnom kolokviju o j užnoj Iliriji i Epiru u antici, koji je održan u Clermont-Ferrandu u listopadu 1984, (9) daju vrlo koristan doprinos boljem rasvjetljavanju problema ilirske države i kraljevstava koja su se smjenjivala u južnoj Iliriji od IV. do II. stoljeća prije Krista. P. Carlier je održao izlaganje pod nazivom "Ilirski kraljevi i kralj Ilira" (10) koje pruža jasnu sliku različitih dinastija i sugerira da je "kralj ilira naprosto onaj od ilirskih kraljeva koji ima hegemoniju nad svim Ilirima, ili točnije, nad južnim Ilirima". M. Hatzopoulos je pak odredio "Granice makedonske ekspanzije u Iliriji pod Filipom II.". On ostaje vrlo blizak stajalištima N. G. L. Hammonda, odnosno sklon mnogostrukim ilirskim državama, pa dijeli i njegovo mišljenje da je Sira pripadao linkestidskoj kraljevskoj obitelji, ali i predlaže, čini se s razlogom, da se Bardileja ne smatra kraljem Dardanaca kao što je to želio Hammond, nego kraljem Dasareta, što stavlja područje njegove vlasti u izravni dodir s Linkestidom i Orestidom te, budući da su ti krajevi uže povezani s argeadskim kraljevstvom, sa samom Makedonijom (11).
According to Polybius (5.108), the Dassaretae possessed several towns, though none has yet been definitely located, including Pelion, Antipatreia (probably Berat) Chrysondym, Gertous or Gerous and Creonion. If you don't know who Polybius was, you can read his Wikipedia article. – Βατο ( talk) 23:37, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
The reason for adding the tag does not appear to have been resolved, so why was the tag removed? El_C 23:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Past research pointed out to it as a settlement of Chaonian tribe of the Dexaroi, modern research has identified it with an Illyrian sitewas removed by Khirurg. After that I placed the tag and explained in my edit summary:POV tags, the result of removing Robin Lane Fox in favor of a very disputed narrative. Then, Dr.K. reverted the tag I placed by saying that Fox wasn't removed. On the contrary he was expanded together with Winnifrith. I can't understand what you mean. It's still in the article like the rest of the bibliography. But as you can see El C, the content was indeed removed and me tagging it and my edit summary obviously had nothing to do with me mistakenly believing that Fox as a citation was removed. In the past days, I have placed on the talkpage the quote by Fox which disputes the narrative many times and tried to initiate a dispute resolution but that didn't happen because I was constantly not getting any replies about the bibliography that was being presented (Fox). After that as you'll notice in the edit history I decided to not engage myself any further [7]. Thank you for restoring a framework under which the discussion can occur. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:20, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
@
El C: The statement Past research pointed out to it as a settlement of Chaonian tribe of the Dexaroi, modern research has identified it with an Illyrian site
is a misuse of Robin Lane Fox and an example of subtle POV pushing using the loaded word "modern". Allow me to explain. The remains of Pelion have not been found. Our only knowledge of this place comes from ancient sources. It's only claim to fame, and probably the only reason anyone has ever heard of it, is that it was the site of a battle between Alexander and the Illyrians. No one disputes that it was held by Illyrians at the time of the battle with Alexander. And this is what Robin Lane Fox states. But he draws no conclusions about the initial founders. The experts in this topic area (Ancient NW Greece/Southern Albania) are John Wilkes (expert on the Illyrians), Nicholas Hammond, and Tom Winnifrith (both experts on the region of
Epirus). Both Wilkes and Hammond state categorically that this was a settlement of the
Dassaretae. RL Fox's focus on the other hand, is not Pelion itself or the Illyrians, but rather Alexander - he only mentions Pelion because Alexander fought an important battle there. Yes, it was held by the Illyrians at the time, but Fox himself is agnostic as to who founded it. So it is dishonest to state that modern research has identified it with an Illyrian site
using Fox. Fox makes no claim regarding who founded it, and the wording "modern" is
WP:WEASEL intended to
poison the well against Hammond and Wilkes (who wrote in the 90s, so they are "modern" as well). Lastly, I am also concerned that the POV tag is used as a blackmail tactic by this group of users, as a bargaining chip to give in to their demands. At
Northern Epirus, they tagged the article, but since then abandoned the discussion and the tag is still there. If their demands are not met, they leave the tag and show no intention of making further efforts to remove it. I am worried the same thing will happen here. Contrast with what happened at
Reaction in Greece to the Yugoslav Wars, where Dr.K and I made a conscientious effort to have the tag which Dr. K. had added, removed.
Khirurg (
talk)
05:06, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
In 1974 Hammond sited Pelion at Gorice just south of the smaller Lake Prespa, but Sarantes criticized his choise and proposed a site north of Zemblak, slightly to the north-west of Hammond's location. Since 2003, after renewed autopsy, Winnifrith has made a decisive case for Zvezde, even further to the north-west, and has related it convincingly to Arrian's text. Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's, and "if Alexander had taken the wrong turning in southern Albania", as Winnifrith well points out, he would have been destroyed, so "Pelion is important for the history of the world".so making a comparison between older and newer research here is not OR because it follows the author's comparison of bibliography and research to come to the conclusion that
Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's. Also, there is confusion in Hammond's writings as well because Hammond (1966) writes:
The Dexari lay to the south of the Enchelees and were thus in Dassaretis, an area to which it seems they gave their name. It is likely that Illyrian tribes occupied Dassaretis before the time of Philip II, because the Dexari disappeared and Alexander's campaign at Pelium was described as a campaign in Illyria... Pelium being somewhere in south-east Dassaretis.All of this means that there cannot be an unambiguous lead sentence which says that it was a fortified settlement/fort of the Chaonian Dexari. It is also wrong to pick one particular (disputed) era from a possible period of up to nine centuries, the best known of which doesn't even involve that particular one. On N.Epirus I almost never got a reply to resolution attempts, the same happened on this article before El C protected it. The dispute resolution attempt here on my part is: A lead sentence with only geographical location and historical time ("classical and Roman antiquity up to possibly the late Roman era"). What do you have to say about that? -- Maleschreiber ( talk)
"Pelium should be situated on the high saddle of land overlooking Zvezde to the south, the Maliq plain to the west, the pass of Zvezde through which the road winds to the east, and only approachable from the north, which is where the Illyrian wall was build... Kleitos' campaigns against Alexander ended in defeat near Pelium, still not definitely located, but clearly again near Ohrid and Prespa.". So he ends up that this site isn't definitely located. This info is already mentioned and I still wonder why this should eliminate some other authors. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:56, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
El_C, the main issue here is about the name Dassaretae, which was attested in Roman times to describe a tribe that inhabited "Pelion" and the region of Dassaretis, and related mainly to the
Second Macedonian War. About the 60s and 70s the historian N.G.L. Hammond supposed that those Dassaretae were related to a
Chaonian tribe called Dexari attested in the 6th century BC by
Hecataeus (although Hammond stated that the Dexari disappeared before the time of Philip II). Hammond's suggestion derived by the fact that the two names are similar, and that the ancient authors often used similar names to describe the peoples of southern Illyria. For instance, there are attested Dassaretii/Dassaretae/Dassarenses etc. So he distinguished between the Chaonian Dassaretae inhabiting the region of Dassaretis and the Illyrian Dassareti, inhabiting further north. There is a current discussion among scholars about the ethne and position of those Dassaret- mentioned in Roman times, and many authors gave a great number of suggestions, like a relation with
Sesarethi,
Taulanti,
Enchelei,
Daesitiates,
Pirustae etc. In more recent research, like M. B. Hatzopoulos, Pierre Cabanes and Robin Lane Fox, the territory of Dassaretis is considered as the realm of the Illyrian king
Bardylis, disputing Hammond's suggestion, that considered Dardania his realm. Hammond's suggestion to exclude Dassaretis as a realm of Bardylis is derived by his assumption that the region was economically poor, but this is contrasted by archaeological finds (see for instance
Trebenista and
Royal Tombs of Selca e Poshtme, all located in the region of Dassaretis and considered Illyrian sites). There is an agreement among historians that Bardylis clashed with
Philip II in the lakeland area, but Hammond considered it an expansion of the Dardanians southwards, while Hatzopoulos, Cabanes and Fox debated him considering that Bardylis' realm was in Dassaretis, including the lakeland area and being in direct contact with
Lynkestis and
Orestis. According to them this territory is more in proximity for the events that happened at the time of Bardylis and subsequently with his son
Cleitus ("
Siege of Pelion"), and Dardania is too far north and makes a southward advance unlikely. Now, because there are all those uncertainties, I replaced in the lead paragraph the sentence "was a fortified settlement of the
Dassaretae located on the borderlands between southern Illyria and Macedonia in classical and Roman antiquity"
with "was located in Dassaretis on the borderlands between southern Illyria and Macedonia"
adding also this information "In Roman times, ancient authors recorded it as a town of the Dassaretae"
(without wikilinking "Dassaretae" as their ethne is debated), because those statements are the only one agreed by a great number of sources and attested in ancient times (which makes them little affected by modern debated hypotheses). Also in the history section I left only that It is likely that Pelion was fortified during the reign of the Illyrian king Bardylis
because also this is a statement commonly agreed by Hammond, Cabanes and the others, and removed Pelium was among the settlements inhabited by the Chaonian tribe of Dassaretae
because is debated. –
Βατο (
talk)
09:33, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Cleitus burnt Pelion (perhaps the Dassaretian inhabitants had shown themselves less than frienly to the Dardanian raiders)". It clearly shows that there was a Dassaretae population in this site that time (and 335 B.C is pre-Roman). So there is yet another source that points to this. Alexikoua ( talk) 10:21, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Since some editors seem to have concerns about Cabanes and Fox, I am starting with the addition of some quotes from these sources.
A partir de la Haute Macédoine, il faut maintenant chercher à suivre la zone de contact avec les Illyriens, vers la fin du Ve siècle, même si la documentation est souvent d’une époque plus tardive... sont établies sur le versant oriental de la chaîne du Pinde, comme les Tymphaioi, les Orestes, ce sont les Dassarètes qui sont le premier ethnos illyrien qui avoisine avec les Orestes...l’entrée en Illyrie étant défendue au IVe siècle par la forteresse de Pélion [From Upper Macedonia, we must now try to follow the zone of contact with the Illyrians, towards the end of the 5th century, even if the documentation is often from a later period...on the eastern slope of the Pindus chain, like the Tymphaioi, the Orestes, those are the Dassaretes who are the first Illyrian ethnos who neighbor with the Orestes...the entry into Illyria being defended in the 4th century by the fortress of Pelion...]
Entre Parthins et Atintanes, vers l’Est s’étend le pays des Dassaretes, dont l’étendue paraît considérable, puisqu’il comprend toute la région comprise entre l’Osum et le Devoll, dont la réunion forme l’Apsus (l’actuel Seman), le plateau de Korça verrouillé par la forteresse de Pélion et, vers le Nord la Dassarétide s’étend jusqu’au lac l’Ohrid (121). C’est certainement une zone centrale de l’Illyrie méridionale, celle qui est aussi la plus directement en contact avec les régions de Haute-Macédoine, notamment avec l’Orestide et la Lyncestide. Selon Polybe, (122), en dehors de Pélion, les Dassarètes possèdent, au début du IIe siècle avant J.-C., plusieurs villes, Antipatreia... [Between Parthins and Atintanes, towards the east extends the country of the Dassaretes, the extent of which seems considerable, since it includes the entire region between Osum and Devoll, whose union forms the Apsus (the Seman), the plateau of Korça locked by the fortress of Pelion and, towards the North the Dassaretis extends to Lake Ohrid (121). It is certainly a central area of southern Illyria, that which is also the most directly in contact with the regions of Upper Macedonia, in particular with the Orestide and the Lyncestide. According to Polybius, (122), apart from Pelion, the Dassaretes owned, at the beginning of the 2nd century BC, several cities, Antipatreia...]
Dans les opérations devant Pélion, en 335, le roi Kleitos, fils de Bardylis, le Dassarète, commande son armée et semble traiter d’égal à égal avec le roi des Taulantins, Glaukias. [In operations before Pelion, in 335, King Kleitos, son of Bardylis, the Dassaretian, commanded his army and seemed to be on an equal footing with the king of the Taulantins, Glaukias]
Here is Cabanes' report about Hatzopoulos suggestion of Bardylis as a Dassaretian king and not a Dardanian one:
M. Hatzopoulos...propose avec raison semble-t-il, de voir dans Bardylis un roi, non pas des Dardaniens comme le voulait Hammond, mais plutôt des Dassarètes, ce qui met son domaine au contact direct avec la Lyncestide et l’Orestide, et, lorsque ces régions sont plus étroitement unies au royaume argéade, avec la Macédoine elle-même (11). [Mr. Hatzopoulos ... seems to be rightly proposing to see in Bardylis a king, not of the Dardanians as Hammond wanted, but rather of the Dassaretes, which puts his domain in direct contact with Lyncestide and the Orestide...]
More recently Robin Lane Fox Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon (2011) analyzed the views of Hammond, Hatzopoulos, Cabanes and Walbank stating:
Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated...
In 1974 Hammond sited Pelion at Gorice just south of the smaller Lake Prespa, but Sarantes criticized his choise and proposed a site north of Zemblak, slightly to the north-west of Hammond's location. Since 2003, after renewed autopsy, Winnifrith has made a decisive case for Zvezde, even further to the north-west, and has related it convincingly to Arrian's text. Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's...
We can use some of these statements with Hammond in the history section. – Βατο ( talk) 19:33, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
(outdent) In this very thread, Bato tried to dismiss Hammond as "outdated" Here is the report of new research on the field, which make Hammond's assumptions outdated
, yet does not seem to share that concern about Cabanes, from 1988. Am I missing something here? AnywayCabanes only states that Pelion was Illyrian in the 4th century BC, which no one here contests. And Cabanes also clearly supports that Pelion was a settlement of the Dassaretae. In contrast to Hammond, he considers the Dassaretae Illyrians instead of Greeks, but as I've said, that can and should be decided elsewhere, not here. As far as I can see, no one disputes that Pelion was a a settlement of the Dassaretae (regardless of whether they were Greek of Illyrian).
Khirurg (
talk)
20:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
– Βατο ( talk) 16:47, 16 May 2020 (UTC)Pelion (alternatively, Pellion, Pelium or Pellium) ( Ancient Greek: Πήλιον, Πέλλιον or Πήλεον, Latin: Pellium) was a fortified settlement located on the borderlands between southern Illyria and Macedonia in classical and Roman antiquity. In the site of Pelion a remarkable battle was undertaken by Alexander the Great against Cleitus, son of Bardylis in 335 BC. The city was also involved in a military operation undertaken by Publius Sulpicius Galba Maximus against Philip V of Macedon at the beginning of the 2nd century BC.
[ [9]] "perhaps the Dassaretian inhabitants has shown themselves less than friendly to the Dardanian raiders"I'm afraid that the author of this quote is quite certain about the inhabitants of this town in 335BC. As I've said there is no strong argument to get rid of this part. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:35, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
was a fortified settlement of the Dassaretae located on the borderlands between southern Illyria and Macedonia in classical and Roman antiquity.should stay as is. I believe we are all in agreement on this much, at least. Khirurg ( talk) 04:23, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Just two posts ago, Bato said I think only a mention of Dassaretae is enough for the scope of the lead
[10], but as soon as I propose keeping the Dassaretae in the lede, in his next post, all of a sudden it's your proposal creates undue weight for the lead
[11]. Then, we have Maleschreiber saying that the POV dispute...requires you to take a step back
. In other words, "because I added a POV tag, you have to take a step back". To me, this proves the tag was added in bad faith, as a pressure tactic. It is simply impossible to have a meaningful discussion with people who do so in bad faith, who say one thing in one post and then the opposite in the next, endlessly filibuster, and who use pressure and shaming tactics instead of rational arguments and concrete proposals. As for an RfC, we all know exactly what will happen: Multiple Albanian accounts, some of whom are hardly active, will appear out of nowhere and spam the RfC with !votes and filibuster, as happens in every vote in this topic area (e.g.
Talk:Religion in Albania).
Khirurg (
talk)
02:27, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Pelion (alternatively, Pellion, Pelium or Pellium) ( Ancient Greek: Πήλιον, Πέλλιον or Πήλεον, Latin: Pellium) was a fortified settlement located on the borderlands between southern Illyria and Macedonia in classical and Roman antiquity. Throughout its history the settlement was controlled by the tribe of Dassaretae, a coalition of Illyrian tribes, the Macedonian kingdom and Rome. In the site of Pelion a remarkable battle was fought by Alexander the Great against Cleitus, son of Bardylis in 335 BC. The city was also involved in a military operation undertaken by Publius Sulpicius Galba Maximus against Philip V of Macedon at the beginning of the 2nd century BC.
Comment I really don't think making a talkpage section with an attack title like this is constructive. -- Calthinus ( talk) 22:59, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
Throughout its history the settlement was controlled by the Chaonian tribe of the Dassaretae, then it possibly became a walled site during the Illyrian/Dardanian expansion under Bardylis, [1] and then a Macedonian outpost during the reign of Philip II. At 335 B.C. during the Balkan campaign of Alexander the Great it was temporarily occupied by Cleitus son of Bardylis. [2] [3] The later burnt Pelion possibly because its Dasarretae inhabitants were not friendly against the Dardanian raiders. [4] During the Second Macedonian War (c. 198 B.C) the city was captured by the Roman forces of Publius Sulpicius Galba Maximus.
It wasn't finally that difficult to provide a concrete text+sources proposal. The Dassaretae presense in Pelion is confirmed by RS, no need to ignore that Alexikoua ( talk) 07:19, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
References
Though more recent research (of 2012) disagrees with the Zvezde location it's interesting that Winnifrith isn't sure about the identity of ancient Zvezde. Apart from an 'Illyrian wall' there is nothing that makes the settlement Illyrian (from Winnifrith 2002):
Pelium should be situated on the high saddle of land overlooking Zvezde to the south, the Maliq plain to the west, the pass of Zvezde through which the road winds to the east, and only approachable from the north, which is where the Illyrian wall was built. ... Diaballo meant originally 'I throw across', and we have shown how Zvezde is a crossroads. It would, however, require more archaeological research to establish the identity of the site. An excavation of Diabolis/Pelium seems improbable at the present time
Question: Was Zvezde an Illyrian settlement? At least Winnifrith concludes that 'more research is needed'. So, for now we have plenty of sources that point to the Dessaretae option.
Alexikoua (
talk)
17:12, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Vujčić (2021) says that the name of the settlement is Greek, however he does not provide an etymology. Hammond & Griffith (1972) say that the name is Illyrian, but without giving an etymology, and I am not adding their information because the source is old. The name is probably related to the root of the name Pella. A reliable source with a full etymology is needed in this case. – Βατο ( talk) 12:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
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Bibliography doesn't mention this settlement as being in Chaonia. The title should be changed.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:30, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
all sources agree that this was a settlement of the Dexaroi, which were a Chaonian tribe, hence Chaonia.WP:OR. Chaonia is placed by scholars in the coastal Epirus, not beyond Pindus, which also is not in the terriotry of ancient Epirus (the eastern border of ancient Epirus is Pindus, while the northern border is Aous, Acrocerauni or Vlora bay). – Βατο ( talk) 09:43, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
@Maleschreiber: In this edit you added then passed hands between Illyrian tribes and the Macedonian kingdom until the 2nd century BCE when the expanding Roman Republic gained control of the region.
right in front of refs 2, 3, and 4, making it seem like this statement is sourced to refs 2, 3 and 4. Yet, none of the three sources back what you added. This is
WP:HIJACK. I will AGF this time, but please don't do that again.
Khirurg (
talk)
02:11, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Regarding the location, no one knows where this place was located. It's remains haven't been found. The only thing we know was that it was a settlement of the Chaonians, hence Chaonia. That's it. Khirurg ( talk) 02:19, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
After 350 BC Illyrian towns are believed to have become established at Lissus (Lezha) and Shkoder and in the interior at Antipatreia (Berat) and also at Selce e Poshtme in the Shkumbin valley, a suggested location for Pelion.and Hammond, CAH (1994) vol VI, p. 429:
It is probable that Bardylis, unlike previous Illyrian dynasts, built a few fortified cities; for Lychnidus and Pelium in the lakeland were walled sites probably before the accession of Philip.– Βατο ( talk) 09:56, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
I propose to rename the article Pelion (Dassaretis), as a great number of sources agree on that, see Hammond and Walbank (1988), Ceka (1990), Wilkes (1992). Thoughts? – Βατο ( talk) 10:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
The Dexari lay to the south of the Enchelees and were thus in Dassaretis, an area to which it seems they gave their name. It is likely that Illyrian tribes occupied Dassaretis before the time of Philip II, because the Dexari disappeared and Alexander's campaign at Pelium was described as a campaign in Illyria... Pelium being somewhere in south-east Dassaretis. An Illyrian king, such as Bardylis, when he occupied northern Epirus for a time, and Pyrrhus the Molossian...must each have held Dassaretis for a period...As Bardylis...There can be little doubt that his authority ran in Dassaretis at that time.Also:
Pomponius Mela (...) put the Pathini and Dassaretae as the most southerly Illyrians in his list, and Pliny (...) put them in proximity to one another: 'gentes Pathini et a tergo eorum Dassaretae...it seems that the Dexari disappeared and were replaced by Illyrian peoples which took the name of Dassaretai after they occupied the region, therefore those people were labeled in later times as Illyrian. However we should see other suggestions in more recent publications on the subject. – Βατο ( talk) 15:55, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Initially a fortified settlement of the Chaonian tribe of Dexaroi? If yes, can you please provide the relative quotes? – Βατο ( talk) 18:54, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Initially a fortified settlement of the Chaonian tribe of Dexaroiprovide them, otherwise it should be removed as per WP:OR. – Βατο ( talk) 19:25, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
It passed different phases of control: the Chaonian tribe of Dexaroi, the Illyrian kingdom, the Macedonian kingdom and finally Rome since at least 198 BCE.You have to provide a source that supports
Initially a fortified settlement of the Chaonian tribe of Dexaroi, otherwise it is WP:OR. About the Illyrian kingdom see Hammond (1966), Wikipedia does not need your original assumptions. – Βατο ( talk) 19:38, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Initially a fortified settlement of the Chaonian tribe of Dexaroiis a WP:SYNTH as we don't know if the Dassareti that inhabited Pelion were the Chaonian or the Illyrian tribe. As suggested by Wilkes (1992, The Illyrians, p.130):
After 350 BC Illyrian towns are believed to have become established at Lissus (Lezha) and Shkoder and in the interior at Antipatreia (Berat) and also at Selce e Poshtme in the Shkumbin valley, a suggested location for Pelion.Hammond, CAH (1994) vol VI, p. 429:
It is probable that Bardylis, unlike previous Illyrian dynasts, built a few fortified cities; for Lychnidus and Pelium in the lakeland were walled sites probably before the accession of Philip.and Hammond (1966):
The Dexari lay to the south of the Enchelees and were thus in Dassaretis, an area to which it seems they gave their name. It is likely that Illyrian tribes occupied Dassaretis before the time of Philip II, because the Dexari disappeared and Alexander's campaign at Pelium was described as a campaign in Illyria... Pelium being somewhere in south-east Dassaretis. An Illyrian king, such as Bardylis, when he occupied northern Epirus for a time, and Pyrrhus the Molossian...must each have held Dassaretis for a period...As Bardylis...There can be little doubt that his authority ran in Dassaretis at that time.Pelion was likely established by Illyrians. – Βατο ( talk) 20:17, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
What were Perdiccas' Illyrian victors doing meanwhile? Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated...( Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon (2011), p. 342) makes it even more evident, but you WP:JDL. – Βατο ( talk) 20:21, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Pomponius Mela (...) put the Pathini and Dassaretae as the most southerly Illyrians in his list, and Pliny (...) put them in proximity to one another: 'gentes Pathini et a tergo eorum Dassaretae...According to Hammond the fortified walls were probably established by Bardylis, see Hammond, CAH (1994) vol VI, p. 429:
It is probable that Bardylis, unlike previous Illyrian dynasts, built a few fortified cities; for Lychnidus and Pelium in the lakeland were walled sites probably before the accession of Philip.and Wilkes (1992, The Illyrians, p.130):
After 350 BC Illyrian towns are believed to have become established at Lissus (Lezha) and Shkoder and in the interior at Antipatreia (Berat) and also at Selce e Poshtme in the Shkumbin valley, a suggested location for Pelion.We don't know if it was a Dexari settlement when the fortifications were built, especially when this source Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon (2011), p. 342:
What were Perdiccas' Illyrian victors doing meanwhile? Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated...states that Bardylis' kingdom were the territory of Dassaretis. You are ignoring evidence by reliable sources with personal assuptions and adding WP:SYNTH content. Currently, the article is WP:POV and should be fixed. – Βατο ( talk) 07:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Nowere was the phalanx more adept than in the Illyrian campain of 335 BC against Bardylis' son Cleitos and his ally Glaucias near the fortified settlement of Pelion. The campain nearly saw Alexander trapped before his Eastern expedition could even begin, and so its topography, beyond Macedon's north-west frontier, has remained a fascinating problem. In 1974 Hammond sited Pelion at Gorice just south of the smaller Lake Prespa, but Sarantes criticized his choise and proposed a site north of Zemblak, slightly to the north-west of Hammond's location. Since 2003, after renewed autopsy, Winnifrith has made a decisive case for Zvezde, even further to the north-west, and has related it convincingly to Arrian's text. Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's, and "if Alexander had taken the wrong turning in southern Albania", as Winnifrith well points out, he would have been destroyed, so "Pelion is important for the history of the world".You can not ignore them. – Βατο ( talk) 07:52, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
was a fortified settlement of the Chaonian tribe of the Dexaroiis yet unsourced, since Roman times historians refer only that it was in Dassaretis, a wide region encompassing many Illyrian tribes. You are reverting the article to your preferred version misusing the sources and giving no proper reasons. – Βατο ( talk) 13:17, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's, and "if Alexander had taken the wrong turning in southern Albania", as Winnifrith well points out, he would have been destroyed, so "Pelion is important for the history of the worldand your reply was a revert and a comment that calling it an Illyrian site is "source falsification ", "quite disruptive", "like saying that Paris was a Nazi garrison". Your reply to Bato here is that him quoting R.L. Fox (an Emeritus Fellow of New College, Oxford) that this was an Illyrian site is "like saying that Paris was a Nazi garrison". I feel that I can't contribute much to a discussion that is moving forward in such terms.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Pelium should be situated on the high saddle of land overlooking Zvezde to the south, the Maliq plain to the west, the pass of Zvezde through which the road winds to the east, and only approachable from the north, which is where the Illyrian wall was build.A fortification and a short term occupation (Dardanian Cleitus burnt the site during his withdrawal) can't justify lead change: it's like saying that Normandy is a Nazi Germany site because of the bunkers built there... Alexikoua ( talk) 16:06, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
[
[5]] Cleitus had occupied Pelion, a fortified city to the west, and it was there where Alexander caught up with him
.
Does this make it an Illyrian settlement? As I've said this was a short-term occupation not an Illyrian settlement. Illyrians may have built a wall there during their very short presence, nothing lead-worthy. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:48, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Since 2003, after renewed autopsy, Winnifrith has made a decisive case for Zvezde, even further to the north-west, and has related it convincingly to Arrian's text. Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's, and "if Alexander had taken the wrong turning in southern Albania", as Winnifrith well points out, he would have been destroyed, so "Pelion is important for the history of the world.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:18, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Here there were some urban settlements such as Lychnidus and Pelium, and it is probable that they were fortified with walls in the time of Bardylis.
To sum up: 1. Pelium already existed there. 2. It was probably fortified by Bardylis. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:05, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
To sum upis your WP:SYNTH. In this case, Hammond's statements (1972, 1994) about Bardylian fortification of Lychnidus and Pelion are in agreement with other scholars of Illyrian history. About the "uprising", it is not my OR because the siege of Pelium is considered an "Illyrian revolt" (also "rising" etc.), you can find an example here: Hornblower, Simon (2013) [1983]. The Greek World 479-323 BC pp. 261–262. Unlike you, I base my claims on reliable sources that I have previously read. – Βατο ( talk) 19:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC):
since the town was prior to that a Dexarian center.again WP:OR, provide a quote please. – Βατο ( talk) 20:55, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
When he rebelled, Cleitus captured Pelium. Pelium was a fortified settlement on the border of Illyria and Macedonia, after Philip II expanded his dominion, he took the lakeland (which includes Pelion) from the Illyrians. – Βατο ( talk) 20:56, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
the Dassaretae possessed several towns, though none has yet been definitely located, including Pelion Antipatreia (probably Berat) Chrysondym, Gertous or Gerous and Creoniondeliberately exluding that it was an information that comes to us from Polybius, a historian of Roman times, here is the full quote from Wilkes:
According to Polybius (5.108), the Dassaretae possessed several towns, though none has yet been definitely located, including Pelion...Pelion as a town of the Dassaretae is attested only in Roman times, you can not use that information for the sentence:
Pelium was among the settlements inhabited by the Chaonian tribe of Dassaretae.which is followed by the WP:OR
It came under the control of Illyrian (or Dardanian) king Bardylis (c. 393–358 BCE). You are misusing sources with WP:SYNTH and OR. @Dr.K., I did not expect from an experienced editor like you to ignore all the issues presented in this talk page. Cheers. – Βατο ( talk) 13:44, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
While Robin Lane Fox states that Pelion was an Illyrian site. You can not insert WP:OR likeThe Dexari lay to the south of the Enchelees and were thus in Dassaretis, an area to which it seems they gave their name. It is likely that Illyrian tribes occupied Dassaretis before the time of Philip II, because the Dexari disappeared and Alexander's campaign at Pelium was described as a campaign in Illyria.
Pelium was among the settlements inhabited by the Chaonian tribe of Dassaretae.in a Wikipedia article. – Βατο ( talk) 15:34, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
And Cabanes himself agrees about the Illyrian Dassaretis and Dassareti. – Βατο ( talk) 20:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)Naposljetku, dodajem da dvije novije studije predstavljene na međunarodnom kolokviju o j užnoj Iliriji i Epiru u antici, koji je održan u Clermont-Ferrandu u listopadu 1984, (9) daju vrlo koristan doprinos boljem rasvjetljavanju problema ilirske države i kraljevstava koja su se smjenjivala u južnoj Iliriji od IV. do II. stoljeća prije Krista. P. Carlier je održao izlaganje pod nazivom "Ilirski kraljevi i kralj Ilira" (10) koje pruža jasnu sliku različitih dinastija i sugerira da je "kralj ilira naprosto onaj od ilirskih kraljeva koji ima hegemoniju nad svim Ilirima, ili točnije, nad južnim Ilirima". M. Hatzopoulos je pak odredio "Granice makedonske ekspanzije u Iliriji pod Filipom II.". On ostaje vrlo blizak stajalištima N. G. L. Hammonda, odnosno sklon mnogostrukim ilirskim državama, pa dijeli i njegovo mišljenje da je Sira pripadao linkestidskoj kraljevskoj obitelji, ali i predlaže, čini se s razlogom, da se Bardileja ne smatra kraljem Dardanaca kao što je to želio Hammond, nego kraljem Dasareta, što stavlja područje njegove vlasti u izravni dodir s Linkestidom i Orestidom te, budući da su ti krajevi uže povezani s argeadskim kraljevstvom, sa samom Makedonijom (11).
According to Polybius (5.108), the Dassaretae possessed several towns, though none has yet been definitely located, including Pelion, Antipatreia (probably Berat) Chrysondym, Gertous or Gerous and Creonion. If you don't know who Polybius was, you can read his Wikipedia article. – Βατο ( talk) 23:37, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
The reason for adding the tag does not appear to have been resolved, so why was the tag removed? El_C 23:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Past research pointed out to it as a settlement of Chaonian tribe of the Dexaroi, modern research has identified it with an Illyrian sitewas removed by Khirurg. After that I placed the tag and explained in my edit summary:POV tags, the result of removing Robin Lane Fox in favor of a very disputed narrative. Then, Dr.K. reverted the tag I placed by saying that Fox wasn't removed. On the contrary he was expanded together with Winnifrith. I can't understand what you mean. It's still in the article like the rest of the bibliography. But as you can see El C, the content was indeed removed and me tagging it and my edit summary obviously had nothing to do with me mistakenly believing that Fox as a citation was removed. In the past days, I have placed on the talkpage the quote by Fox which disputes the narrative many times and tried to initiate a dispute resolution but that didn't happen because I was constantly not getting any replies about the bibliography that was being presented (Fox). After that as you'll notice in the edit history I decided to not engage myself any further [7]. Thank you for restoring a framework under which the discussion can occur. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:20, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
@
El C: The statement Past research pointed out to it as a settlement of Chaonian tribe of the Dexaroi, modern research has identified it with an Illyrian site
is a misuse of Robin Lane Fox and an example of subtle POV pushing using the loaded word "modern". Allow me to explain. The remains of Pelion have not been found. Our only knowledge of this place comes from ancient sources. It's only claim to fame, and probably the only reason anyone has ever heard of it, is that it was the site of a battle between Alexander and the Illyrians. No one disputes that it was held by Illyrians at the time of the battle with Alexander. And this is what Robin Lane Fox states. But he draws no conclusions about the initial founders. The experts in this topic area (Ancient NW Greece/Southern Albania) are John Wilkes (expert on the Illyrians), Nicholas Hammond, and Tom Winnifrith (both experts on the region of
Epirus). Both Wilkes and Hammond state categorically that this was a settlement of the
Dassaretae. RL Fox's focus on the other hand, is not Pelion itself or the Illyrians, but rather Alexander - he only mentions Pelion because Alexander fought an important battle there. Yes, it was held by the Illyrians at the time, but Fox himself is agnostic as to who founded it. So it is dishonest to state that modern research has identified it with an Illyrian site
using Fox. Fox makes no claim regarding who founded it, and the wording "modern" is
WP:WEASEL intended to
poison the well against Hammond and Wilkes (who wrote in the 90s, so they are "modern" as well). Lastly, I am also concerned that the POV tag is used as a blackmail tactic by this group of users, as a bargaining chip to give in to their demands. At
Northern Epirus, they tagged the article, but since then abandoned the discussion and the tag is still there. If their demands are not met, they leave the tag and show no intention of making further efforts to remove it. I am worried the same thing will happen here. Contrast with what happened at
Reaction in Greece to the Yugoslav Wars, where Dr.K and I made a conscientious effort to have the tag which Dr. K. had added, removed.
Khirurg (
talk)
05:06, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
In 1974 Hammond sited Pelion at Gorice just south of the smaller Lake Prespa, but Sarantes criticized his choise and proposed a site north of Zemblak, slightly to the north-west of Hammond's location. Since 2003, after renewed autopsy, Winnifrith has made a decisive case for Zvezde, even further to the north-west, and has related it convincingly to Arrian's text. Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's, and "if Alexander had taken the wrong turning in southern Albania", as Winnifrith well points out, he would have been destroyed, so "Pelion is important for the history of the world".so making a comparison between older and newer research here is not OR because it follows the author's comparison of bibliography and research to come to the conclusion that
Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's. Also, there is confusion in Hammond's writings as well because Hammond (1966) writes:
The Dexari lay to the south of the Enchelees and were thus in Dassaretis, an area to which it seems they gave their name. It is likely that Illyrian tribes occupied Dassaretis before the time of Philip II, because the Dexari disappeared and Alexander's campaign at Pelium was described as a campaign in Illyria... Pelium being somewhere in south-east Dassaretis.All of this means that there cannot be an unambiguous lead sentence which says that it was a fortified settlement/fort of the Chaonian Dexari. It is also wrong to pick one particular (disputed) era from a possible period of up to nine centuries, the best known of which doesn't even involve that particular one. On N.Epirus I almost never got a reply to resolution attempts, the same happened on this article before El C protected it. The dispute resolution attempt here on my part is: A lead sentence with only geographical location and historical time ("classical and Roman antiquity up to possibly the late Roman era"). What do you have to say about that? -- Maleschreiber ( talk)
"Pelium should be situated on the high saddle of land overlooking Zvezde to the south, the Maliq plain to the west, the pass of Zvezde through which the road winds to the east, and only approachable from the north, which is where the Illyrian wall was build... Kleitos' campaigns against Alexander ended in defeat near Pelium, still not definitely located, but clearly again near Ohrid and Prespa.". So he ends up that this site isn't definitely located. This info is already mentioned and I still wonder why this should eliminate some other authors. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:56, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
El_C, the main issue here is about the name Dassaretae, which was attested in Roman times to describe a tribe that inhabited "Pelion" and the region of Dassaretis, and related mainly to the
Second Macedonian War. About the 60s and 70s the historian N.G.L. Hammond supposed that those Dassaretae were related to a
Chaonian tribe called Dexari attested in the 6th century BC by
Hecataeus (although Hammond stated that the Dexari disappeared before the time of Philip II). Hammond's suggestion derived by the fact that the two names are similar, and that the ancient authors often used similar names to describe the peoples of southern Illyria. For instance, there are attested Dassaretii/Dassaretae/Dassarenses etc. So he distinguished between the Chaonian Dassaretae inhabiting the region of Dassaretis and the Illyrian Dassareti, inhabiting further north. There is a current discussion among scholars about the ethne and position of those Dassaret- mentioned in Roman times, and many authors gave a great number of suggestions, like a relation with
Sesarethi,
Taulanti,
Enchelei,
Daesitiates,
Pirustae etc. In more recent research, like M. B. Hatzopoulos, Pierre Cabanes and Robin Lane Fox, the territory of Dassaretis is considered as the realm of the Illyrian king
Bardylis, disputing Hammond's suggestion, that considered Dardania his realm. Hammond's suggestion to exclude Dassaretis as a realm of Bardylis is derived by his assumption that the region was economically poor, but this is contrasted by archaeological finds (see for instance
Trebenista and
Royal Tombs of Selca e Poshtme, all located in the region of Dassaretis and considered Illyrian sites). There is an agreement among historians that Bardylis clashed with
Philip II in the lakeland area, but Hammond considered it an expansion of the Dardanians southwards, while Hatzopoulos, Cabanes and Fox debated him considering that Bardylis' realm was in Dassaretis, including the lakeland area and being in direct contact with
Lynkestis and
Orestis. According to them this territory is more in proximity for the events that happened at the time of Bardylis and subsequently with his son
Cleitus ("
Siege of Pelion"), and Dardania is too far north and makes a southward advance unlikely. Now, because there are all those uncertainties, I replaced in the lead paragraph the sentence "was a fortified settlement of the
Dassaretae located on the borderlands between southern Illyria and Macedonia in classical and Roman antiquity"
with "was located in Dassaretis on the borderlands between southern Illyria and Macedonia"
adding also this information "In Roman times, ancient authors recorded it as a town of the Dassaretae"
(without wikilinking "Dassaretae" as their ethne is debated), because those statements are the only one agreed by a great number of sources and attested in ancient times (which makes them little affected by modern debated hypotheses). Also in the history section I left only that It is likely that Pelion was fortified during the reign of the Illyrian king Bardylis
because also this is a statement commonly agreed by Hammond, Cabanes and the others, and removed Pelium was among the settlements inhabited by the Chaonian tribe of Dassaretae
because is debated. –
Βατο (
talk)
09:33, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Cleitus burnt Pelion (perhaps the Dassaretian inhabitants had shown themselves less than frienly to the Dardanian raiders)". It clearly shows that there was a Dassaretae population in this site that time (and 335 B.C is pre-Roman). So there is yet another source that points to this. Alexikoua ( talk) 10:21, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Since some editors seem to have concerns about Cabanes and Fox, I am starting with the addition of some quotes from these sources.
A partir de la Haute Macédoine, il faut maintenant chercher à suivre la zone de contact avec les Illyriens, vers la fin du Ve siècle, même si la documentation est souvent d’une époque plus tardive... sont établies sur le versant oriental de la chaîne du Pinde, comme les Tymphaioi, les Orestes, ce sont les Dassarètes qui sont le premier ethnos illyrien qui avoisine avec les Orestes...l’entrée en Illyrie étant défendue au IVe siècle par la forteresse de Pélion [From Upper Macedonia, we must now try to follow the zone of contact with the Illyrians, towards the end of the 5th century, even if the documentation is often from a later period...on the eastern slope of the Pindus chain, like the Tymphaioi, the Orestes, those are the Dassaretes who are the first Illyrian ethnos who neighbor with the Orestes...the entry into Illyria being defended in the 4th century by the fortress of Pelion...]
Entre Parthins et Atintanes, vers l’Est s’étend le pays des Dassaretes, dont l’étendue paraît considérable, puisqu’il comprend toute la région comprise entre l’Osum et le Devoll, dont la réunion forme l’Apsus (l’actuel Seman), le plateau de Korça verrouillé par la forteresse de Pélion et, vers le Nord la Dassarétide s’étend jusqu’au lac l’Ohrid (121). C’est certainement une zone centrale de l’Illyrie méridionale, celle qui est aussi la plus directement en contact avec les régions de Haute-Macédoine, notamment avec l’Orestide et la Lyncestide. Selon Polybe, (122), en dehors de Pélion, les Dassarètes possèdent, au début du IIe siècle avant J.-C., plusieurs villes, Antipatreia... [Between Parthins and Atintanes, towards the east extends the country of the Dassaretes, the extent of which seems considerable, since it includes the entire region between Osum and Devoll, whose union forms the Apsus (the Seman), the plateau of Korça locked by the fortress of Pelion and, towards the North the Dassaretis extends to Lake Ohrid (121). It is certainly a central area of southern Illyria, that which is also the most directly in contact with the regions of Upper Macedonia, in particular with the Orestide and the Lyncestide. According to Polybius, (122), apart from Pelion, the Dassaretes owned, at the beginning of the 2nd century BC, several cities, Antipatreia...]
Dans les opérations devant Pélion, en 335, le roi Kleitos, fils de Bardylis, le Dassarète, commande son armée et semble traiter d’égal à égal avec le roi des Taulantins, Glaukias. [In operations before Pelion, in 335, King Kleitos, son of Bardylis, the Dassaretian, commanded his army and seemed to be on an equal footing with the king of the Taulantins, Glaukias]
Here is Cabanes' report about Hatzopoulos suggestion of Bardylis as a Dassaretian king and not a Dardanian one:
M. Hatzopoulos...propose avec raison semble-t-il, de voir dans Bardylis un roi, non pas des Dardaniens comme le voulait Hammond, mais plutôt des Dassarètes, ce qui met son domaine au contact direct avec la Lyncestide et l’Orestide, et, lorsque ces régions sont plus étroitement unies au royaume argéade, avec la Macédoine elle-même (11). [Mr. Hatzopoulos ... seems to be rightly proposing to see in Bardylis a king, not of the Dardanians as Hammond wanted, but rather of the Dassaretes, which puts his domain in direct contact with Lyncestide and the Orestide...]
More recently Robin Lane Fox Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon (2011) analyzed the views of Hammond, Hatzopoulos, Cabanes and Walbank stating:
Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated...
In 1974 Hammond sited Pelion at Gorice just south of the smaller Lake Prespa, but Sarantes criticized his choise and proposed a site north of Zemblak, slightly to the north-west of Hammond's location. Since 2003, after renewed autopsy, Winnifrith has made a decisive case for Zvezde, even further to the north-west, and has related it convincingly to Arrian's text. Pelion was an Illyrian site there, not a former settlement of Philip's...
We can use some of these statements with Hammond in the history section. – Βατο ( talk) 19:33, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
(outdent) In this very thread, Bato tried to dismiss Hammond as "outdated" Here is the report of new research on the field, which make Hammond's assumptions outdated
, yet does not seem to share that concern about Cabanes, from 1988. Am I missing something here? AnywayCabanes only states that Pelion was Illyrian in the 4th century BC, which no one here contests. And Cabanes also clearly supports that Pelion was a settlement of the Dassaretae. In contrast to Hammond, he considers the Dassaretae Illyrians instead of Greeks, but as I've said, that can and should be decided elsewhere, not here. As far as I can see, no one disputes that Pelion was a a settlement of the Dassaretae (regardless of whether they were Greek of Illyrian).
Khirurg (
talk)
20:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
– Βατο ( talk) 16:47, 16 May 2020 (UTC)Pelion (alternatively, Pellion, Pelium or Pellium) ( Ancient Greek: Πήλιον, Πέλλιον or Πήλεον, Latin: Pellium) was a fortified settlement located on the borderlands between southern Illyria and Macedonia in classical and Roman antiquity. In the site of Pelion a remarkable battle was undertaken by Alexander the Great against Cleitus, son of Bardylis in 335 BC. The city was also involved in a military operation undertaken by Publius Sulpicius Galba Maximus against Philip V of Macedon at the beginning of the 2nd century BC.
[ [9]] "perhaps the Dassaretian inhabitants has shown themselves less than friendly to the Dardanian raiders"I'm afraid that the author of this quote is quite certain about the inhabitants of this town in 335BC. As I've said there is no strong argument to get rid of this part. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:35, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
was a fortified settlement of the Dassaretae located on the borderlands between southern Illyria and Macedonia in classical and Roman antiquity.should stay as is. I believe we are all in agreement on this much, at least. Khirurg ( talk) 04:23, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Just two posts ago, Bato said I think only a mention of Dassaretae is enough for the scope of the lead
[10], but as soon as I propose keeping the Dassaretae in the lede, in his next post, all of a sudden it's your proposal creates undue weight for the lead
[11]. Then, we have Maleschreiber saying that the POV dispute...requires you to take a step back
. In other words, "because I added a POV tag, you have to take a step back". To me, this proves the tag was added in bad faith, as a pressure tactic. It is simply impossible to have a meaningful discussion with people who do so in bad faith, who say one thing in one post and then the opposite in the next, endlessly filibuster, and who use pressure and shaming tactics instead of rational arguments and concrete proposals. As for an RfC, we all know exactly what will happen: Multiple Albanian accounts, some of whom are hardly active, will appear out of nowhere and spam the RfC with !votes and filibuster, as happens in every vote in this topic area (e.g.
Talk:Religion in Albania).
Khirurg (
talk)
02:27, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Pelion (alternatively, Pellion, Pelium or Pellium) ( Ancient Greek: Πήλιον, Πέλλιον or Πήλεον, Latin: Pellium) was a fortified settlement located on the borderlands between southern Illyria and Macedonia in classical and Roman antiquity. Throughout its history the settlement was controlled by the tribe of Dassaretae, a coalition of Illyrian tribes, the Macedonian kingdom and Rome. In the site of Pelion a remarkable battle was fought by Alexander the Great against Cleitus, son of Bardylis in 335 BC. The city was also involved in a military operation undertaken by Publius Sulpicius Galba Maximus against Philip V of Macedon at the beginning of the 2nd century BC.
Comment I really don't think making a talkpage section with an attack title like this is constructive. -- Calthinus ( talk) 22:59, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
Throughout its history the settlement was controlled by the Chaonian tribe of the Dassaretae, then it possibly became a walled site during the Illyrian/Dardanian expansion under Bardylis, [1] and then a Macedonian outpost during the reign of Philip II. At 335 B.C. during the Balkan campaign of Alexander the Great it was temporarily occupied by Cleitus son of Bardylis. [2] [3] The later burnt Pelion possibly because its Dasarretae inhabitants were not friendly against the Dardanian raiders. [4] During the Second Macedonian War (c. 198 B.C) the city was captured by the Roman forces of Publius Sulpicius Galba Maximus.
It wasn't finally that difficult to provide a concrete text+sources proposal. The Dassaretae presense in Pelion is confirmed by RS, no need to ignore that Alexikoua ( talk) 07:19, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
References
Though more recent research (of 2012) disagrees with the Zvezde location it's interesting that Winnifrith isn't sure about the identity of ancient Zvezde. Apart from an 'Illyrian wall' there is nothing that makes the settlement Illyrian (from Winnifrith 2002):
Pelium should be situated on the high saddle of land overlooking Zvezde to the south, the Maliq plain to the west, the pass of Zvezde through which the road winds to the east, and only approachable from the north, which is where the Illyrian wall was built. ... Diaballo meant originally 'I throw across', and we have shown how Zvezde is a crossroads. It would, however, require more archaeological research to establish the identity of the site. An excavation of Diabolis/Pelium seems improbable at the present time
Question: Was Zvezde an Illyrian settlement? At least Winnifrith concludes that 'more research is needed'. So, for now we have plenty of sources that point to the Dessaretae option.
Alexikoua (
talk)
17:12, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Vujčić (2021) says that the name of the settlement is Greek, however he does not provide an etymology. Hammond & Griffith (1972) say that the name is Illyrian, but without giving an etymology, and I am not adding their information because the source is old. The name is probably related to the root of the name Pella. A reliable source with a full etymology is needed in this case. – Βατο ( talk) 12:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)