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Reporting errors |
Rmhermen asked me the source for my change of Alf's gggparent's count from eight to ten. I first noticed that the Snopes article linked to from the Pedigree collapse page said ten, not eight, gggparents. I then found this page: [1] which showed a full pedigree. It shows his father had 4 ggparents and his mother had 6 ggparents. (Of course, his father, Alfonso XII, had no more than 8 gggparents by this reckoning.) - R. S. Shaw 22:01, 2004 Nov 29 (UTC)
Regarding "Some geneticists believe that everybody on earth is at least 50th cousin to everybody else."
I User:jamesdowallen challenge this assertion. Most pairs of people are much closer than this; some pairs are much further! First, note that cousins grow (in simplistic model) by a factor of 4 per generation (not factor of 2 as for ancestors), so one would have 4 billion 15th cousins!" This ignores pedigree collapse, but a good guess would be that any two Europeans are closer than 20th cousins. As for "everybody on earth", what about the relation between, say, an Australian aborigine and an Amerindian deep in Amazon jungle? Is there any reason to suppose all such people have post-Columbian Eurasian ancestors? Is there any guarantee of trans-Pacific contact after early migrations? "50th cousin" implies the two isolated aborigines would have a common ancestor within the last 2000 years (approx). Is there any reason to believe this?
Which was the inbred Habsburg whose "ancestry overlap" was higher than if his parents had been full siblings? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.132.41 ( talk) 11:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
What do people think about adding a simple example to the article? such as:
Mary, John, Bob and Carol each have two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, which would bring the total of great-grandparents bewteen the four to 32, except for the fact that Mary, John, Bob and Carol are all brothers and sisters, there for 32 collapses to only eight great-grandparents total due to common ancestry.▪◦▪ ≡ЅiREX≡ Talk 23:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I User:la loi du récit suggest someone translate most of the German article that translates to this article. I believe a great deal is lost in the translation between these two articles, and I don't see how they easily correspond. If someone can suggest how I might find this translation in work in a different article, then link me to that article please. laloidurécit 31 October 2008 16:46 Eastern
Like most people, the family tree of Elizabeth II to five generations has 62 different people in the 62 different positions. The family tree of Charles II had only 32 different persons in the 62 positions. Going back two more generations, he had only 82 different people in 254 positions.
Going back five generations, you have 32 positions. Six generations is 64 (not 62) positions, while eight generations is 256 positions (not 254). I've corrected those numbers, but are the "32 different persons" and "82 different persons" part correct or also mistakes? XinaNicole ( talk) 08:54, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
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It is unclear what this word means in English but it does not appear to adequately cover the entire topic here (called pedigree collapse). [2] say an implex is "a person who appears several times in the ancestor tree" while the implex factor is (total possible ancestor count - actual)/ possible. For the writers of MaqPar [3], it is something different and they have three different kinds and acknowledge using the word differently from "the old-guard Brazilian genealogists". [4] uses "ancestors' implex" for what is apparently implex coefficient elsewhere. [5] seems to use the term to indicate a single location of collapse in a tree. (19:46, August 6, 2010 Rmhermen)
I revised this section, maintaining the references and the general and specific example of royalty Alfonso XII. I removed the more arcane mathematical observations and replaced them with straightforward examples.
In a school paper or a conference paper, the idea is to impress knowledgable, educated readers. In an encyclopedia, and especially in Wikipedia, the idea is make text easily understood by the likely readers. In this case, that might be almost anybody investigating genealogy. So use of phrases such as "directed acyclic graph" and "binary tree" and "High Middle Ages" is counter-indicated, since probably only 5% of readers would know what those all are. 98.210.208.107 ( talk) 01:19, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks LKlundin for maintaining the "binary graph", "directed acyclic graph" and "High Middle Ages terms".
This article would benefit greatly from a measure of how much pedigree collapse typically takes place after n generations. Presumably, for most people there is 0 collapse thru generations 3 or 4 but by generation 10 on average, how much collapse has taken place? By generation 20? Skates61 ( talk) 00:29, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
:"If a child and parent were to procreate, their offspring would have four grandparents, although one of these would also be a parent and therefore introduce no additional genes – thus procreation between parents and children would result in less pedigree collapse than procreation between full siblings." How can the fact that no new genes are introduced result in less pedigree collapse. That's what it says. CapnZapp ( talk) 16:01, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
From my point of view the sentence in this Wikipedia article "If a child and parent to procreate ..." is complete nonsense. -- Hermannh ( talk) 17:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Rmhermen asked me the source for my change of Alf's gggparent's count from eight to ten. I first noticed that the Snopes article linked to from the Pedigree collapse page said ten, not eight, gggparents. I then found this page: [1] which showed a full pedigree. It shows his father had 4 ggparents and his mother had 6 ggparents. (Of course, his father, Alfonso XII, had no more than 8 gggparents by this reckoning.) - R. S. Shaw 22:01, 2004 Nov 29 (UTC)
Regarding "Some geneticists believe that everybody on earth is at least 50th cousin to everybody else."
I User:jamesdowallen challenge this assertion. Most pairs of people are much closer than this; some pairs are much further! First, note that cousins grow (in simplistic model) by a factor of 4 per generation (not factor of 2 as for ancestors), so one would have 4 billion 15th cousins!" This ignores pedigree collapse, but a good guess would be that any two Europeans are closer than 20th cousins. As for "everybody on earth", what about the relation between, say, an Australian aborigine and an Amerindian deep in Amazon jungle? Is there any reason to suppose all such people have post-Columbian Eurasian ancestors? Is there any guarantee of trans-Pacific contact after early migrations? "50th cousin" implies the two isolated aborigines would have a common ancestor within the last 2000 years (approx). Is there any reason to believe this?
Which was the inbred Habsburg whose "ancestry overlap" was higher than if his parents had been full siblings? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.132.41 ( talk) 11:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
What do people think about adding a simple example to the article? such as:
Mary, John, Bob and Carol each have two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, which would bring the total of great-grandparents bewteen the four to 32, except for the fact that Mary, John, Bob and Carol are all brothers and sisters, there for 32 collapses to only eight great-grandparents total due to common ancestry.▪◦▪ ≡ЅiREX≡ Talk 23:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I User:la loi du récit suggest someone translate most of the German article that translates to this article. I believe a great deal is lost in the translation between these two articles, and I don't see how they easily correspond. If someone can suggest how I might find this translation in work in a different article, then link me to that article please. laloidurécit 31 October 2008 16:46 Eastern
Like most people, the family tree of Elizabeth II to five generations has 62 different people in the 62 different positions. The family tree of Charles II had only 32 different persons in the 62 positions. Going back two more generations, he had only 82 different people in 254 positions.
Going back five generations, you have 32 positions. Six generations is 64 (not 62) positions, while eight generations is 256 positions (not 254). I've corrected those numbers, but are the "32 different persons" and "82 different persons" part correct or also mistakes? XinaNicole ( talk) 08:54, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
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It is unclear what this word means in English but it does not appear to adequately cover the entire topic here (called pedigree collapse). [2] say an implex is "a person who appears several times in the ancestor tree" while the implex factor is (total possible ancestor count - actual)/ possible. For the writers of MaqPar [3], it is something different and they have three different kinds and acknowledge using the word differently from "the old-guard Brazilian genealogists". [4] uses "ancestors' implex" for what is apparently implex coefficient elsewhere. [5] seems to use the term to indicate a single location of collapse in a tree. (19:46, August 6, 2010 Rmhermen)
I revised this section, maintaining the references and the general and specific example of royalty Alfonso XII. I removed the more arcane mathematical observations and replaced them with straightforward examples.
In a school paper or a conference paper, the idea is to impress knowledgable, educated readers. In an encyclopedia, and especially in Wikipedia, the idea is make text easily understood by the likely readers. In this case, that might be almost anybody investigating genealogy. So use of phrases such as "directed acyclic graph" and "binary tree" and "High Middle Ages" is counter-indicated, since probably only 5% of readers would know what those all are. 98.210.208.107 ( talk) 01:19, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks LKlundin for maintaining the "binary graph", "directed acyclic graph" and "High Middle Ages terms".
This article would benefit greatly from a measure of how much pedigree collapse typically takes place after n generations. Presumably, for most people there is 0 collapse thru generations 3 or 4 but by generation 10 on average, how much collapse has taken place? By generation 20? Skates61 ( talk) 00:29, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
:"If a child and parent were to procreate, their offspring would have four grandparents, although one of these would also be a parent and therefore introduce no additional genes – thus procreation between parents and children would result in less pedigree collapse than procreation between full siblings." How can the fact that no new genes are introduced result in less pedigree collapse. That's what it says. CapnZapp ( talk) 16:01, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
From my point of view the sentence in this Wikipedia article "If a child and parent to procreate ..." is complete nonsense. -- Hermannh ( talk) 17:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)