This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 18 June 2004 and 26 December 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Pederasty/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Mistress Selina Kyle ( Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 20:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I deleted items about the classical greeks because it is Wikipedia policy to "Cite Sources" none is given. There is no bibliography.
I have read plenty of the greeks, and of classicists especially Muller who is thorough. There is no mention of this *idea* anywhere in classical literature. WHEELER 17:28, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I assume you are referring to the analogy with the Papuans. I support your deletion, and have removed all remaining mentions of the Papuans, who at this point do not fit into the argument. Someone more familiar with their practices will have to integrate them in. -- Haiduc 04:30, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Seeing there are varying opinions, I opt to avoid narrowing down the age range until the issue has been debated. Assuming we can agree they were teens I will leave it as such.-- Haiduc 03:00, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Unless the scene involves historically known persons involved in Eastern kind of pederasty I have no reasons not to think that the affection displayed is, e.g., between father and son. Unless proof of relevance is presented, the image is to go away. Mikkalai 01:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Can anyone translate this into Pidgin English? Mikkalai 02:28, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I take it you'd prefer this in simpler language. But is this a junior high topic? Quasi-universal = "almost universal" Zero-sum is what it is. I take it you understand full well what is being said, but you think others will not. This can all be dumbed down but is it wise? Haiduc 02:59, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While I consider myself very open minded and quite liberal politically, I can in no wise accede to anything other than stating in plain terms exactly what this activity is.
For example the phraseology male same sex is simply abbreviated homosexual, likewise for other terms. Under the age of consent means that the child - yes, a child - had no say, and that the father - women had no rights in Greek society, they were mere chattel - similarly condoned the rape.
To call it rape would more likely be accurate, for few children would refuse if their lives were in jeopardy, and their father were complicit. They would keep quiet to save their lives and/or a harsh beating.
In this age, such behavior is universally criminal. Because some view it at one time as somehow good or just or even attempting to sanitize the horror is as egregious as condoning or attempting to build upon Mengele's activities at Auchwitz as valid science.
The claim at the beginning of the article which states that pederasty is often associated with child sexual abuse because "pederasty" is universally illegal is inaccurate. The "age of consent" in many nations of the post-industrial world is 14, well within the age-range of younger participants in traditional pederastic relationships. The insertion of this juxtaposition seems to be little more than a cheap intended to twist the idea of NPOV until it screams "Agenda!"
This is an encyclopedia article, not a collection of all possible books that say a word or two on the subject. I reverted the last aditions. Please reconsider what is directly related to the subject of the article and is of encyclopedic value, rather than of scientific. I am sure there are hundreds of books. Mikkalai 22:16, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Many of the works are esoteric writings and aren't very easy to get a hold of--for example, the works of Bethe, Licht, and Friedlaender. The majority of the content deals with the practice of paiderastia and gives more insight than any other modern works available on the subject, especially Licht and Bethe. There works focus primarily on Greek paiderastia. Symonds' "A Problem in Greek Ethics" deals exclusively with the subject also, as does Thomas K. Hubbard's work "Homosexuality in Greece and Rome", which was originally referenced.
The references to "Homosexuality and Male Bonding in Pre-Nazi Germany" and Friedlaender's "Renaissance Des Eros Uranios" also deal with the subject of paiderastia. I was going to add a new section under the title "Pederasty in 19th-20th Century Germany". You may omit these at the moment. Dan Asad 13:20, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
These links are relevant:
Homosexual Eros in Early Greece by Paul Halsall (1986) A Problem in Greek Ethics by J.A. Symonds (1901) Homosexuality in Greece and Rome: A Sourcebook of Basic Documents in Translation by Thomas K. Hubbard Ph.D glbtq Encyclopedia - Pederasty Dan Asad 13:23, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It wold be good if you put brief descriptions of the references into the article itself, since book titles show nothing of direct relevance. In particular, reference to particular sections would me more meaningful. Mikkalai 02:45, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"In others there was ongoing conflict between popular culture and the authorities."
As far as I am aware, there was no ongoing conflict in any of the societies of antiquity, neither in the West, Middle-East, or Far East regarding male homosexuality. I think it would be necessary to quote and find scholarly references for this comment. The entire introduction seems to be misguiding and inappropriate for the subcontent provided. It needs to be simplified so that it will reflect the information of the subcontent concisely.
Regarding male homosexuality--particularly pederasty--the practice came to an end in the West as a common norm of sexuality and intimacy with the rise of Christianity. After the Greek states were conquered by the Macedonians, and then by the Romans, it's sociological significance declined in those societies, but it remained a socially acceptable practice. Even after the rise of Judeo-Christianity in the West, the practice still continued as an esoteric ritual and as an aristocratic practice. And in the Far East, Westernization brought an end to it.
Timing is such a crucial part in accurately describing social phenomena and their pecularities; the article does not address social change thoroughly nor does it attribute the various differences associated with the practice of pederasty both in the abstract and concrete senses. Dan Asad 13:21, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Excellent article, really fascinating, especially about the Sacred Band. However, I would recommend, because of the potentially sensitive nature of this topic, that you distinguish pederasty and paedophilia earlier in the article. My previous encounters with the term pederast have not made this distinction and so I came to the article thinking it was synonymous with paedophilia. I doubt I will be the only person approaching the article with this error.
I see from this discussion page that there is some debate as to the maturity of the youths involved. Perhaps the distinction between pederasty and its modern interpretation, whether rightly or wrongly, as paedophilia deserves its own section, outlining contemporary attitudes to historical relationships. It would seem to me that pederasty did survive in the situational sexuality of all-male boarding schools, with the roles of praeposters and fags. Philip Thomas -- 82.38.227.149 17:32, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Among the luminaries of the time who had romantic liasons with youths were Théophile de Viau, Benvenuto Cellini, Caravaggio, Leonardo da Vinci, and Michelangelo."
It may be prudent to strike Leonardo da Vinci's name from the list, as his pedastry is suspected, but not confirmed. That he had homosexual relations at all in fact is largely a matter of conjecture, and while it may be somewhat accepted as to being possible, it should not be listed in such a matter-of-fact way, lest the reader be misinformed. If preferred, perhaps the artist's name should be listed under "assumed" or "suspected", or another such word which would serve to balance the statement.
I removed Afghanistan [1]. I think the article cited doesn't come close to meriting afganastans mention here, and if it does, what nation wouldn't deserve mention? ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:38, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ah, ok, so I guess its a bit like San Francisco. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 15:02, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There is practically no country with sizeable ethnic minorities/ethnic strife where such comments are not made. Utter nonsense. Kandahar is the epithome of cultural backwardness within Afghanistan, moral self righteousness and religious bigotry (see Taliban). Subsequently comments on rampant homosexuality/paederasty are a subversive comment at times of the Taleban and their aftermath - on the background of latent and widespread homophobia, but should not be seen as anything proving or disproving the increased incidence of such behaviour/sexual preferences I have therefore deleted : The same is also true of the city of Kandahar, Afghanistan [3] and Pakistan [4]. Refdoc 15:57, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am not going into an editwar with you over the matter - this would be ridiculous, but please have a look at what you use as sources 1) a friend - this has no value as a sourcce here on Wikipedia 2) a journalist repeating jokes from other areas of Afghanistan about Kandahar, the city of Mullah Omar. Not very reliable, i would say. Bring some real data and I would be the first to agree putting this in again. I am not saying that there is no paederasty happening in kandahar - you misread me here, but your sources are simply not worth much, certainly not for asserting paederasty as a major distinguishing cultural feature of Kandahar. Really the most you can say about Kandahar based on your source is that a) it is at the receiving end of jokes and b) men in Kandahar have a taste for clothing and make-up considered as somewhat 'camp' in other parts of the world.
The source on Pakistan is very different - I admit this, but it again only describes the - undoubted - existance of a homosexual minority in Pakistan's Islamic society. Whether this amounts to cultural acceptance or increased incidence beyond what would be expected across the globe is hard to say.
Wrt sources - it is not just the presence of a quotation on the internet which is important, but also whether the sources are of sufficient quality to support the assertion. Neither of your sources are of such quality.
Finally, the distinguishing part of paederasty from other forms of homosexual behaviour/homosexuality appears from the article some form of paedagogic input/coming of age ceremony etc. The article on Kandahar doe snot offer any evidence for this. I therefore suggest deletion again. In the meantime I have altered the sentence, but would appreciate your further input Refdoc 16:40, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You did not get this straight. The article quoted on Afghanistan did not support the categorical statement, it did though support a much more vague statement like the last one before you changed the position. The reasons for my view are detailed above - a journalist, reporting rumours from other parts of Afghanistan, jokes and observations of 'camp' behaviour but little else. I still struggled with the position in the introduction next and on a similar level to the accounts of a culturally accepted practice of paederasty in Greece, widely documented, supported by uncounted artefacts and documents etc. against hearsay, jokes and doubtful observations. But you have changed to position to a better place and I am perfectly happy with this. Refdoc 19:37, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think you are moving rapidly from "poorly documented" here to "outright speculation". Refdoc 23:30, 22 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Exactly... Refdoc 22:08, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
See Image talk:Photo of magazine page.jpg.
(The image has since been removed.)
Do you think it would be relevant to include a section on ancient Semitic homosexualities, because if I remember correctly, there were certain Semitic peoples other than the Arabs in which paederasty was practiced? Unfortunately, I forgot the sources. If I'm correct, there actually were homosexual practices in ancient Hebrew societies, which is rather ironic as the Jews hold a strong aversion to homosexuality. Dan Asad 13:25, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yea, I know. I vaguely remember reading about it, but I forgot the sources. I think it might have been in one of the older German studies. It was something about boy prostitutes. It also contained information about the sexual practices of the Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Hittites. The only information that I have sources for at the moment is that involving the Hebrews and Phallic worship, which they too, as many other peoples, practiced during ancient times. Dan Asad 13:25, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'll be sure to do so if I can find the time to search for it. While browsing amazon, I came upon a book entitled, "Wrestling with God and Men: Homosexuality in the Jewish Tradition" by Steven Greenberg. That might contain some pertinent information. Dan Asad
Sorry to take up room in the form of a subsection, but I want to say that this is an excellent article, esp. dealing with many potentially controversial topics. -- ShaunMacPherson 04:02, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would dispute that this kind of mainstream advertising has anything to do with pederasty. You see sexy (often young) women in products-for-women ads, and sexy (often young) men in products-for-men ads not because the advertisers think their audiences are secretly or subconsciously homosexual. Nor do audiences respond that way. Instead, these images are designed to exploit self-image, to make people think they could look yound and sexy if only they used the products advertised. The inclusion of the Budweiser Ganymede picture is particularly misleading, because Ganymede is almost certainly being referenced here in his role as cup-bearer to the gods, not as a love object. Besides which, we already have a lovely Ganymede illustration more closely related to the subject of the article.
If modern advertising is to be included at all, I would actually look at images and ideas in ads in the gay press. -- Beland 13:25, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, Griffith also says that during the Renaissance, this image was used "an allegory of the soul's ascent toward Heaven", i.e. not in reference to pederasty, and that over time, changing culture mores caused depictions to lose their "homoerotic charge". His history doesn't go past 1700, though, so I'm not sure it informs us much about the situation in the early 1900s. I certainly agree that it's appropriate to include the other two images of this scene, since they both explicitly make reference to the homosexual aspect. But it seems implausible to me that the beer advertisers wanted to reference that aspect. I will ask for some others' opinions. -- Beland 03:54, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Man boy love is not a synonym for pedersty. I've chosen not to remove this for now, but this should really be moved to the See also section. Exploding Boy 02:38, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
It's a different cultural concept. If there's not an article, maybe Man boy love should be redirected to a related article... Exploding Boy 23:16, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Is there an equivalent concept for females? I read something about married women whose husbands were away in the minefields (or the fisheries?) for long time who took young girls to their home. Somewhere in Africa. -- Error 01:53, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In Greece, was it limited to citizens? -- Error 01:53, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Surely that should be removed -- unless, unlikely as it seems, the LA Times has given express permission to reproduce it here. In which case, all that info ought to be linked to the photo. Hayford Peirce 19:54, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Obviously a person of homosexual orientation wrote the article. There is no substantiation whatsoever that homosexuality or pederastry was a norm in ancient Greece. On the contrary, homosexuality and pedophilia was scorned upon and ridiculed. In terms of pederastry: the words erastis and eromenos in ancient Greek, do not indicate sexual relationship. Over the years the meaning has been corupted as with many other words in modern Greek. It was more a mentor-disciple relationship. For example, a number of erastis would be listed for a single eromenos. You are not suggesting that parents would endorse their precious boys to be taken advantage by many sick perverts are you. One mentor would teach the boy military arts, another philosophy, etc. What normal, logical human being would believe such an absurd claim as yours that actually sexual relationship between men and boys was endorsed and expected by the greek or any culture? You cannot be a total moron, so just tell us; are you a homosexual? If so, your article should be deleted for attempting to fabricate history to justify yours and others sickness. If you say you are not, then your article should be deleted, because only a fool would advocate that a great culture and civilization who founded the western world, would adopt abuse and corruption of their boys.
By the way, all your distortions in the so called "article" (a bunch of ballony) can be refuted in Georgopoulos's book, "Homosexuality in Greece: Myth debunked". -- 63.26.156.107 04:43, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Here is the deleted text posted today by the anon:
There is another episode with pederastic overtones in the life of Jesus, his healing the entimos doulos of the Roman soldier, a boy presumed to be the soldier's beloved. Any inclusion of either episode in the article should be solidly buttressed with references and historical explanations. Haiduc 23:37, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
It is getting rather big, and it is only a matter of time before a request will be made to shorten it. I am minded to make the Greek pederasty section into an article of its own. A summary will have to be left in its place in this article. Any thoughts? Haiduc 02:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
This is an unbelievably biased paper. Whoeverever wrote this is definitely a pro-pedastrian. The author cites numerous sources and studies in favor of pedestrians and hardly mentions any of the overwhelming studies that document harm. Why aren't powerdynamics, psychological vulnerability, or physical vulnerability mentioned. While the author correctly differentiates between pedastry and pedophilia, he nevertheless avoids that almost everywhere in the world "beardless youths" are considered "children" because of their lack of both knowledge and power. There should be links to numerous respected peer-reviewed studies on both sides of the issue. I'm also wondering if this paper was about another type of sexual preference, men who favor young adolescent girls between the age of 12 and 16, whether it would have been written with more balance. Therefore not only is this article biased in favor of pedestrians but is also biased against men.
There are people alleging that "Wikipedia has been infiltrated by Pedophiles":
http://www.perverted-justice.com/opinions/?article=11
Any comments?
I work in a group home for mentally-retarded, developmentally-disabled women. I always thought that it would be immoral to have sex with them. I believed this because I am in a position of authority over them and have greater mental/physical abilities which could serve as a source of intimidation and confusion. But now that I've listened to all of you, I realize that the fact that they are too incompetant to vote, drive,drink alcohol safely, or work is irrelevant because I'm only "loving" them with my body. Thanks for the enlightenment guys!
I have voiced this opinion elsewhere on 'Wiki' but I am relatively inexperienced with the means and methods of contacting/complaining to/notifying administrators of shortcomings of Wiki's supposed "NPOV" so I thought that I would simply complain on this message board to whomever may be reading, and, presumably, the people who are responsible for this article. I came across the article on pederasty while investigating the movie "The Big Lebowski" (a film, where, granted, the phenomenon is briefly and humrously touched upon) and this discovery is something I believe in itself to be an unfortunate and quite odd idiosyncracy of Wiki. It seems every other article I investigate, seemingly regardless of its subject matter, can potentially, via underlined link, lead me to a article concerning homosexuality. This first came to mind when investigating notoriously conservative and now dead senator Strom Thurmond. In the 'Trivia' section, the first, yes first bit of trivia was that a journalist (and apparently the author of some book ((not surprisingly, of homosexual content and bias)) which makes him a reliable source?) was (not claims to have been) solicited by Thurmond for sex. This is ridiculous. I do not understand how Wiki can proclaim "NPOV" and still allow such activities. The issue here is not gay as right/wrong but relevant/irrelevant. In the case of Thurmond, I think its relevancy (and certainly its veracity) should be called into question when considering the article as a whole. Sorry to digress, but now to this article. Perhaps it understandably escapes the contributors (whom so agressively defend themselves on this message board) that this article hopelessly endorses the practices it describes. I would describe the article's tone as a tacit and fond endorsement. I believe the whole subject (while, yes yes okay existent and previously existent) to be along the margins of useful/practical/ or even informative (yes it informs that there were and are same-sex relationships with sociological trends to be seen, but so exhaustively and extensively one wonders if you just could have written 'worldwide' and be done with it) and should probably exist within the subtext of articles on homosexuality (because this is clearly the type of pederasty the authors are interested in, for example, haven't you heard of Lewis Carrol?) I believe it is important to consider sexual orientation when considering "NPOV" and that while the 'junior high level' so spitefully refered to earlier on this wall may not be sufficient to fully grasp the topic, it is important to note that currently, junior high students can be routed here when investigating the Big Lebowski. Wikipedia has a long way to go in my opinion, which is why I keep a copy of the Britannica, which, as of 2003, does not have an entry for 'pederastry' but does for pedophilia, yet the phenomenon is tastefully treated and implied in its more comprehensive coverage of homosexuality.
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 18 June 2004 and 26 December 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Pederasty/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Mistress Selina Kyle ( Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 20:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I deleted items about the classical greeks because it is Wikipedia policy to "Cite Sources" none is given. There is no bibliography.
I have read plenty of the greeks, and of classicists especially Muller who is thorough. There is no mention of this *idea* anywhere in classical literature. WHEELER 17:28, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I assume you are referring to the analogy with the Papuans. I support your deletion, and have removed all remaining mentions of the Papuans, who at this point do not fit into the argument. Someone more familiar with their practices will have to integrate them in. -- Haiduc 04:30, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Seeing there are varying opinions, I opt to avoid narrowing down the age range until the issue has been debated. Assuming we can agree they were teens I will leave it as such.-- Haiduc 03:00, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Unless the scene involves historically known persons involved in Eastern kind of pederasty I have no reasons not to think that the affection displayed is, e.g., between father and son. Unless proof of relevance is presented, the image is to go away. Mikkalai 01:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Can anyone translate this into Pidgin English? Mikkalai 02:28, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I take it you'd prefer this in simpler language. But is this a junior high topic? Quasi-universal = "almost universal" Zero-sum is what it is. I take it you understand full well what is being said, but you think others will not. This can all be dumbed down but is it wise? Haiduc 02:59, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While I consider myself very open minded and quite liberal politically, I can in no wise accede to anything other than stating in plain terms exactly what this activity is.
For example the phraseology male same sex is simply abbreviated homosexual, likewise for other terms. Under the age of consent means that the child - yes, a child - had no say, and that the father - women had no rights in Greek society, they were mere chattel - similarly condoned the rape.
To call it rape would more likely be accurate, for few children would refuse if their lives were in jeopardy, and their father were complicit. They would keep quiet to save their lives and/or a harsh beating.
In this age, such behavior is universally criminal. Because some view it at one time as somehow good or just or even attempting to sanitize the horror is as egregious as condoning or attempting to build upon Mengele's activities at Auchwitz as valid science.
The claim at the beginning of the article which states that pederasty is often associated with child sexual abuse because "pederasty" is universally illegal is inaccurate. The "age of consent" in many nations of the post-industrial world is 14, well within the age-range of younger participants in traditional pederastic relationships. The insertion of this juxtaposition seems to be little more than a cheap intended to twist the idea of NPOV until it screams "Agenda!"
This is an encyclopedia article, not a collection of all possible books that say a word or two on the subject. I reverted the last aditions. Please reconsider what is directly related to the subject of the article and is of encyclopedic value, rather than of scientific. I am sure there are hundreds of books. Mikkalai 22:16, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Many of the works are esoteric writings and aren't very easy to get a hold of--for example, the works of Bethe, Licht, and Friedlaender. The majority of the content deals with the practice of paiderastia and gives more insight than any other modern works available on the subject, especially Licht and Bethe. There works focus primarily on Greek paiderastia. Symonds' "A Problem in Greek Ethics" deals exclusively with the subject also, as does Thomas K. Hubbard's work "Homosexuality in Greece and Rome", which was originally referenced.
The references to "Homosexuality and Male Bonding in Pre-Nazi Germany" and Friedlaender's "Renaissance Des Eros Uranios" also deal with the subject of paiderastia. I was going to add a new section under the title "Pederasty in 19th-20th Century Germany". You may omit these at the moment. Dan Asad 13:20, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
These links are relevant:
Homosexual Eros in Early Greece by Paul Halsall (1986) A Problem in Greek Ethics by J.A. Symonds (1901) Homosexuality in Greece and Rome: A Sourcebook of Basic Documents in Translation by Thomas K. Hubbard Ph.D glbtq Encyclopedia - Pederasty Dan Asad 13:23, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It wold be good if you put brief descriptions of the references into the article itself, since book titles show nothing of direct relevance. In particular, reference to particular sections would me more meaningful. Mikkalai 02:45, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"In others there was ongoing conflict between popular culture and the authorities."
As far as I am aware, there was no ongoing conflict in any of the societies of antiquity, neither in the West, Middle-East, or Far East regarding male homosexuality. I think it would be necessary to quote and find scholarly references for this comment. The entire introduction seems to be misguiding and inappropriate for the subcontent provided. It needs to be simplified so that it will reflect the information of the subcontent concisely.
Regarding male homosexuality--particularly pederasty--the practice came to an end in the West as a common norm of sexuality and intimacy with the rise of Christianity. After the Greek states were conquered by the Macedonians, and then by the Romans, it's sociological significance declined in those societies, but it remained a socially acceptable practice. Even after the rise of Judeo-Christianity in the West, the practice still continued as an esoteric ritual and as an aristocratic practice. And in the Far East, Westernization brought an end to it.
Timing is such a crucial part in accurately describing social phenomena and their pecularities; the article does not address social change thoroughly nor does it attribute the various differences associated with the practice of pederasty both in the abstract and concrete senses. Dan Asad 13:21, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Excellent article, really fascinating, especially about the Sacred Band. However, I would recommend, because of the potentially sensitive nature of this topic, that you distinguish pederasty and paedophilia earlier in the article. My previous encounters with the term pederast have not made this distinction and so I came to the article thinking it was synonymous with paedophilia. I doubt I will be the only person approaching the article with this error.
I see from this discussion page that there is some debate as to the maturity of the youths involved. Perhaps the distinction between pederasty and its modern interpretation, whether rightly or wrongly, as paedophilia deserves its own section, outlining contemporary attitudes to historical relationships. It would seem to me that pederasty did survive in the situational sexuality of all-male boarding schools, with the roles of praeposters and fags. Philip Thomas -- 82.38.227.149 17:32, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Among the luminaries of the time who had romantic liasons with youths were Théophile de Viau, Benvenuto Cellini, Caravaggio, Leonardo da Vinci, and Michelangelo."
It may be prudent to strike Leonardo da Vinci's name from the list, as his pedastry is suspected, but not confirmed. That he had homosexual relations at all in fact is largely a matter of conjecture, and while it may be somewhat accepted as to being possible, it should not be listed in such a matter-of-fact way, lest the reader be misinformed. If preferred, perhaps the artist's name should be listed under "assumed" or "suspected", or another such word which would serve to balance the statement.
I removed Afghanistan [1]. I think the article cited doesn't come close to meriting afganastans mention here, and if it does, what nation wouldn't deserve mention? ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:38, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ah, ok, so I guess its a bit like San Francisco. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 15:02, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There is practically no country with sizeable ethnic minorities/ethnic strife where such comments are not made. Utter nonsense. Kandahar is the epithome of cultural backwardness within Afghanistan, moral self righteousness and religious bigotry (see Taliban). Subsequently comments on rampant homosexuality/paederasty are a subversive comment at times of the Taleban and their aftermath - on the background of latent and widespread homophobia, but should not be seen as anything proving or disproving the increased incidence of such behaviour/sexual preferences I have therefore deleted : The same is also true of the city of Kandahar, Afghanistan [3] and Pakistan [4]. Refdoc 15:57, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am not going into an editwar with you over the matter - this would be ridiculous, but please have a look at what you use as sources 1) a friend - this has no value as a sourcce here on Wikipedia 2) a journalist repeating jokes from other areas of Afghanistan about Kandahar, the city of Mullah Omar. Not very reliable, i would say. Bring some real data and I would be the first to agree putting this in again. I am not saying that there is no paederasty happening in kandahar - you misread me here, but your sources are simply not worth much, certainly not for asserting paederasty as a major distinguishing cultural feature of Kandahar. Really the most you can say about Kandahar based on your source is that a) it is at the receiving end of jokes and b) men in Kandahar have a taste for clothing and make-up considered as somewhat 'camp' in other parts of the world.
The source on Pakistan is very different - I admit this, but it again only describes the - undoubted - existance of a homosexual minority in Pakistan's Islamic society. Whether this amounts to cultural acceptance or increased incidence beyond what would be expected across the globe is hard to say.
Wrt sources - it is not just the presence of a quotation on the internet which is important, but also whether the sources are of sufficient quality to support the assertion. Neither of your sources are of such quality.
Finally, the distinguishing part of paederasty from other forms of homosexual behaviour/homosexuality appears from the article some form of paedagogic input/coming of age ceremony etc. The article on Kandahar doe snot offer any evidence for this. I therefore suggest deletion again. In the meantime I have altered the sentence, but would appreciate your further input Refdoc 16:40, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You did not get this straight. The article quoted on Afghanistan did not support the categorical statement, it did though support a much more vague statement like the last one before you changed the position. The reasons for my view are detailed above - a journalist, reporting rumours from other parts of Afghanistan, jokes and observations of 'camp' behaviour but little else. I still struggled with the position in the introduction next and on a similar level to the accounts of a culturally accepted practice of paederasty in Greece, widely documented, supported by uncounted artefacts and documents etc. against hearsay, jokes and doubtful observations. But you have changed to position to a better place and I am perfectly happy with this. Refdoc 19:37, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think you are moving rapidly from "poorly documented" here to "outright speculation". Refdoc 23:30, 22 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Exactly... Refdoc 22:08, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
See Image talk:Photo of magazine page.jpg.
(The image has since been removed.)
Do you think it would be relevant to include a section on ancient Semitic homosexualities, because if I remember correctly, there were certain Semitic peoples other than the Arabs in which paederasty was practiced? Unfortunately, I forgot the sources. If I'm correct, there actually were homosexual practices in ancient Hebrew societies, which is rather ironic as the Jews hold a strong aversion to homosexuality. Dan Asad 13:25, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yea, I know. I vaguely remember reading about it, but I forgot the sources. I think it might have been in one of the older German studies. It was something about boy prostitutes. It also contained information about the sexual practices of the Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Hittites. The only information that I have sources for at the moment is that involving the Hebrews and Phallic worship, which they too, as many other peoples, practiced during ancient times. Dan Asad 13:25, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'll be sure to do so if I can find the time to search for it. While browsing amazon, I came upon a book entitled, "Wrestling with God and Men: Homosexuality in the Jewish Tradition" by Steven Greenberg. That might contain some pertinent information. Dan Asad
Sorry to take up room in the form of a subsection, but I want to say that this is an excellent article, esp. dealing with many potentially controversial topics. -- ShaunMacPherson 04:02, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would dispute that this kind of mainstream advertising has anything to do with pederasty. You see sexy (often young) women in products-for-women ads, and sexy (often young) men in products-for-men ads not because the advertisers think their audiences are secretly or subconsciously homosexual. Nor do audiences respond that way. Instead, these images are designed to exploit self-image, to make people think they could look yound and sexy if only they used the products advertised. The inclusion of the Budweiser Ganymede picture is particularly misleading, because Ganymede is almost certainly being referenced here in his role as cup-bearer to the gods, not as a love object. Besides which, we already have a lovely Ganymede illustration more closely related to the subject of the article.
If modern advertising is to be included at all, I would actually look at images and ideas in ads in the gay press. -- Beland 13:25, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, Griffith also says that during the Renaissance, this image was used "an allegory of the soul's ascent toward Heaven", i.e. not in reference to pederasty, and that over time, changing culture mores caused depictions to lose their "homoerotic charge". His history doesn't go past 1700, though, so I'm not sure it informs us much about the situation in the early 1900s. I certainly agree that it's appropriate to include the other two images of this scene, since they both explicitly make reference to the homosexual aspect. But it seems implausible to me that the beer advertisers wanted to reference that aspect. I will ask for some others' opinions. -- Beland 03:54, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Man boy love is not a synonym for pedersty. I've chosen not to remove this for now, but this should really be moved to the See also section. Exploding Boy 02:38, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
It's a different cultural concept. If there's not an article, maybe Man boy love should be redirected to a related article... Exploding Boy 23:16, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Is there an equivalent concept for females? I read something about married women whose husbands were away in the minefields (or the fisheries?) for long time who took young girls to their home. Somewhere in Africa. -- Error 01:53, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In Greece, was it limited to citizens? -- Error 01:53, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Surely that should be removed -- unless, unlikely as it seems, the LA Times has given express permission to reproduce it here. In which case, all that info ought to be linked to the photo. Hayford Peirce 19:54, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Obviously a person of homosexual orientation wrote the article. There is no substantiation whatsoever that homosexuality or pederastry was a norm in ancient Greece. On the contrary, homosexuality and pedophilia was scorned upon and ridiculed. In terms of pederastry: the words erastis and eromenos in ancient Greek, do not indicate sexual relationship. Over the years the meaning has been corupted as with many other words in modern Greek. It was more a mentor-disciple relationship. For example, a number of erastis would be listed for a single eromenos. You are not suggesting that parents would endorse their precious boys to be taken advantage by many sick perverts are you. One mentor would teach the boy military arts, another philosophy, etc. What normal, logical human being would believe such an absurd claim as yours that actually sexual relationship between men and boys was endorsed and expected by the greek or any culture? You cannot be a total moron, so just tell us; are you a homosexual? If so, your article should be deleted for attempting to fabricate history to justify yours and others sickness. If you say you are not, then your article should be deleted, because only a fool would advocate that a great culture and civilization who founded the western world, would adopt abuse and corruption of their boys.
By the way, all your distortions in the so called "article" (a bunch of ballony) can be refuted in Georgopoulos's book, "Homosexuality in Greece: Myth debunked". -- 63.26.156.107 04:43, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Here is the deleted text posted today by the anon:
There is another episode with pederastic overtones in the life of Jesus, his healing the entimos doulos of the Roman soldier, a boy presumed to be the soldier's beloved. Any inclusion of either episode in the article should be solidly buttressed with references and historical explanations. Haiduc 23:37, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
It is getting rather big, and it is only a matter of time before a request will be made to shorten it. I am minded to make the Greek pederasty section into an article of its own. A summary will have to be left in its place in this article. Any thoughts? Haiduc 02:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
This is an unbelievably biased paper. Whoeverever wrote this is definitely a pro-pedastrian. The author cites numerous sources and studies in favor of pedestrians and hardly mentions any of the overwhelming studies that document harm. Why aren't powerdynamics, psychological vulnerability, or physical vulnerability mentioned. While the author correctly differentiates between pedastry and pedophilia, he nevertheless avoids that almost everywhere in the world "beardless youths" are considered "children" because of their lack of both knowledge and power. There should be links to numerous respected peer-reviewed studies on both sides of the issue. I'm also wondering if this paper was about another type of sexual preference, men who favor young adolescent girls between the age of 12 and 16, whether it would have been written with more balance. Therefore not only is this article biased in favor of pedestrians but is also biased against men.
There are people alleging that "Wikipedia has been infiltrated by Pedophiles":
http://www.perverted-justice.com/opinions/?article=11
Any comments?
I work in a group home for mentally-retarded, developmentally-disabled women. I always thought that it would be immoral to have sex with them. I believed this because I am in a position of authority over them and have greater mental/physical abilities which could serve as a source of intimidation and confusion. But now that I've listened to all of you, I realize that the fact that they are too incompetant to vote, drive,drink alcohol safely, or work is irrelevant because I'm only "loving" them with my body. Thanks for the enlightenment guys!
I have voiced this opinion elsewhere on 'Wiki' but I am relatively inexperienced with the means and methods of contacting/complaining to/notifying administrators of shortcomings of Wiki's supposed "NPOV" so I thought that I would simply complain on this message board to whomever may be reading, and, presumably, the people who are responsible for this article. I came across the article on pederasty while investigating the movie "The Big Lebowski" (a film, where, granted, the phenomenon is briefly and humrously touched upon) and this discovery is something I believe in itself to be an unfortunate and quite odd idiosyncracy of Wiki. It seems every other article I investigate, seemingly regardless of its subject matter, can potentially, via underlined link, lead me to a article concerning homosexuality. This first came to mind when investigating notoriously conservative and now dead senator Strom Thurmond. In the 'Trivia' section, the first, yes first bit of trivia was that a journalist (and apparently the author of some book ((not surprisingly, of homosexual content and bias)) which makes him a reliable source?) was (not claims to have been) solicited by Thurmond for sex. This is ridiculous. I do not understand how Wiki can proclaim "NPOV" and still allow such activities. The issue here is not gay as right/wrong but relevant/irrelevant. In the case of Thurmond, I think its relevancy (and certainly its veracity) should be called into question when considering the article as a whole. Sorry to digress, but now to this article. Perhaps it understandably escapes the contributors (whom so agressively defend themselves on this message board) that this article hopelessly endorses the practices it describes. I would describe the article's tone as a tacit and fond endorsement. I believe the whole subject (while, yes yes okay existent and previously existent) to be along the margins of useful/practical/ or even informative (yes it informs that there were and are same-sex relationships with sociological trends to be seen, but so exhaustively and extensively one wonders if you just could have written 'worldwide' and be done with it) and should probably exist within the subtext of articles on homosexuality (because this is clearly the type of pederasty the authors are interested in, for example, haven't you heard of Lewis Carrol?) I believe it is important to consider sexual orientation when considering "NPOV" and that while the 'junior high level' so spitefully refered to earlier on this wall may not be sufficient to fully grasp the topic, it is important to note that currently, junior high students can be routed here when investigating the Big Lebowski. Wikipedia has a long way to go in my opinion, which is why I keep a copy of the Britannica, which, as of 2003, does not have an entry for 'pederastry' but does for pedophilia, yet the phenomenon is tastefully treated and implied in its more comprehensive coverage of homosexuality.