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I'm glad that someone wrote such good copy about Peckham, because I can see that it deserves a lot better than its media reputation (much the same as my 'hood, Hackney). Anyway, I was on a field trip, thought I'd add shots I took, I have a couple more including dept store, but it would overload the copy if I used any more. Hope more writings get writ, then I'll add some more pix. n.b. - I only write about places I know quite well - or those that feature well in the history texts :) Tarquin Binary 10:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, as i live near rye lane, I know a bit more truth than what is written in that article, for example: - It is true that there is multiple wig shops, and many places to buy yams, but there are many better shops, for example, Dixons, WHSmiths, Primarks, Clintons, Mothercare, Blockbuster/Gamestation. Please could you add these to the article, thanks.
-- Joshuarooney2006 14:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Better from whose perspective? Not those who want to buy wigs or yams, I'm sure. Those shops can be found on any high street in Britain, and so aren't worth mentioning. The Afro-Carribean shops are more unusual, and thus notible. 86.0.203.120 18:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The article does not conform to WP:NPOV. Ring modulator 16:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I can't see why, and in the absence of anything to the contrary here, I've removed the tag. Care to elaborate? 86.0.203.120 18:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I can't see any issues with the POV either. No reason given be person flagging. I'd vote to remove the tag unless someone can give a reason why 3tmx 23:26 7 Feb 2007
Let's just remove the thing. There's no reason for it; Ring Modulator didn't articulate one, and Martial B. decided to lecture rather than explain why it belongs. There should be an articulated reason for the application of that tag, especially when three distinct users, at least one of whom has never edited the body of the article, can't see why it's there. GeeZee 04:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
"Peckham is an area of great diversity: gang-related shootings, muggings and burglary characterise one picture whilst another emphasises the high population of artists and professionals."
So many problems with this snippet (and of course the rest of the article):
1) Since when are "gang-related shootings, muggings and burglary" constituent components of diversity?
2) Why use a colon?
3) "characterise one picture" - What kind of phraseology is that? What does it mean?!
4) "whilst another" - Another what?
I don't know anything about Peckham (and the problem is that after reading the article I still don't), but for the sake of sanity could somebody please rewrite, or even delete, this terrible article?
138.243.129.4
11:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I didn't write any of it, but I have a problem with very little of what you quote. Here goes.
1) Shootings, muggings, and burglary are not constitutent components of diversity, but the sentence doesn't read that way, either. Peckham is an area of great diversity because it's got a violent side as well as an artistic/professional side to it. Not "diversity" as in what "affirmative action" became called in the 1990s, but the actual meaning of the word: differences.
2) Why not?
3) Here, I agree.
4) Another picture.
Seriously, it's not that hard.
GeeZee 04:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Tommyhaych —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommyhaych ( talk • contribs) 07:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
North Peckham Estate had a merge tag to here, but I have merged it instead to North Peckham, as that article seemed a more natural merge, being about the same topic. However, seeing as I don't know a whole lot about Peckham, I couldnt decipher whether a) North Peckham was a geographical term or signified a more set-in-stone division ([[West Virginia/ Virginia) etc. and b) whether, if the term "North Peckham" does indeed refer universally to the estate, whether the estate is itself notable enough to warrant an article. I figured people watching this page would know, hence the tag. There's not much information there anyway, so if it isn't really a valid article topic it shouldn't take long to incorporate the info into this article. Cheers! Jdcooper ( talk) 02:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Having been brought up in Peckham I think this is a logical merge. The North Peckham article is really talking about the large housing estate rather than a geographic area and it would make more sense as a sub category of the Peckham article. Nshimbi 04:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Just deleted the "crime" section - it was nonsense. Peckham does not have a "murder a day" and Tony Blair did not brand the area "Pecknam" after Vietnam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fatherlukeduke ( talk • contribs) 12:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The text in the introduction mentions the following:
Peckham is a high-crime area with high levels of gang violence, for which it has a notorious reputation, despite a £290 million regeneration programme in the late 1990s and early 2000s
The reference to 'high crime' is essentially derived from a 2003 BBC news report which states that 3 murders happened "...not too far from where Damilola [Taylor] bled to death". The problem with this is that only 1 out of the 3 murders happened in Peckham. Not too far in this sentence is actually referring to Streatham, Lambeth. This is misleading.
...despite a £290 million regeneration programme
Not verified, say, with any sort of statistical data, merely opinion. Even so, the original text that this sentence is derived from claims that the regeneration is working. For example the source states: "The reality is that levels of crime have reduced year on year," he said. "The individuals who are involved in these type of crimes are a very small minority.
The remaining to sources used to cite this original text are irrelevant. One is from a UK polling website, the other is a Guardian opinion piece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desilentiorules ( talk • contribs) 19:38, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Harriet Harman lived/s in Herne Hill not Peckham
Victor Ogunwusi & Agata Owczarek are sadly not notable enough for inclusion in notable residents as they don't even qualify for a Wiki page on themselves —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.71.148 ( talk) 17:49, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Peckham is in Southwark NOT Lambeth. I changed it. 82.4.184.39 ( talk) 22:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
A number of statements in the article on Peckham are inaccurate because they conflate Peckham the place as a town and Peckham the name of one of the five wards that make up Peckham as the place. Over the last year or so I have made some small edits to correct some of these erors but then they have been deleted. Can someone explain to me how to get these edits accepted? Peckhamresident ( talk) 01:27, 10 July 2011 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Peckhamresident ( talk • contribs) 01:24, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
The two Ferrero La Marmora brothers at the Marmora dab page were senior officers in the Sardinian army in the Crimea, Alfonso a commander. Whether that gained either of them a street in Peckham, I don't know. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 23:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I doubt Marmora Road was named after these brothers, it's more likely an alternative pronunciation of Marmara. Nshimbi ( talk) 23:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I've decided to tag this section about Crimean War related street names as dubious since they are largely or all apparently locations in Turkey, thus only indirectly associated with the war and not part of the theatre of conflict. Surely if they were commemorating the Crimean War, locations in the Crimea would be picked. I'm not that familiar with the area but think the houses are largely twentieth century, an impression confirmed by Google Street View. Is it more likely that it commemorates the Gallipoli theatre in the Great War?
Citations about the Russo-Turkish War are not pertinent - unless the street names in fact commemorate this conflict, which would seem unlikely. And they said nothing about the naming of streets in Peckham anyway. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 12:48, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
The citation is dated 1878, which is during the Russo-Turkish War, not the Crimean War, and the citations say nothing about naming of streets in Peckham. Any connections you are making are thus assumed. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 13:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
One does not have to provide evidence to disprove things written in Wikipedia - this is fundamental. The onus is to prove that something is the case. All we know is that names are, or seem likely to be, places which are now in modern Turkey. Listing documents which happen to have these place names in them does nothing in regard to the verification of the actual reason for the naming of the streets. These places have played parts in various parts of history that may have made them candidates for Peckham street names. Your speculation may be correct but it is only speculation.
The roads are in Peckham. This is not a matter of dispute. My point is that your citations do not address the naming of these (Peckham) streets, not whether they are in Peckham. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 14:07, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
See the title I gave this talk page section. Busy at the moment - can you hold off until I get a chance to reply fully (this evening or poss. tomorrow morning)? Also, have had an idea for some sources that may help, or even nail it if we're lucky... Mutt Lunker ( talk) 14:41, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Didn't find anything definitive and nothing directly addressing the naming of the streets. However in these maps on the Southwark Council web site, the 1888 Dulwich/Sydenham map (high res. version needed) shows Mondania (sic), Therapia and Marmora Roads and an unnamed, partial Scutari Road, with no buildings. Clearly not connected with the First World War then.
This forum page is of interest but some of it contradictory and doubtful and clearly wouldn't count as a reliable source and doesn't point to any.
It's clear that the streets predate the First World War, Scutari barracks are associated with Florence Nightingale and British troops in transit or return from the Crimea and the other streets are apparently also places in the Istanbul area so may also have Crimean War connections, possibly indicated in the document you linked to. If I were to speculate, a Crimean War connection does not seem unreasonble. However, without a reliable source yet actually stating it's why the streets were named, that's WP:SYNTH.
Not going to make a stab at rewording the article at this late hour, if indeed that's appropriate. Will sleep on it. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 01:03, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Good work. Have edited to reinstate the Marmara/Marmora dab (seems reasonable that 4 streets built in the same period would have the linked thread of places so close to each other) and removed the dubious tag. Have put a fact tag there though until we have a source which actual nails the naming, beyond (reasonable as it may seem) speculation. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 09:37, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
Well, you asked for a third opinion, but in my view you don't need it at all. It seems to me that you are moving forward rather quickly and without outside help. I was going to suggest a physical visit to the council offices as a possible solution, but you are way ahead of me. If you do still want an impartial opinion on any aspect of the article or the discussion, please let me know and I'll do my best to give one— Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 13:11, 31 August 2011 (UTC) |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm glad that someone wrote such good copy about Peckham, because I can see that it deserves a lot better than its media reputation (much the same as my 'hood, Hackney). Anyway, I was on a field trip, thought I'd add shots I took, I have a couple more including dept store, but it would overload the copy if I used any more. Hope more writings get writ, then I'll add some more pix. n.b. - I only write about places I know quite well - or those that feature well in the history texts :) Tarquin Binary 10:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, as i live near rye lane, I know a bit more truth than what is written in that article, for example: - It is true that there is multiple wig shops, and many places to buy yams, but there are many better shops, for example, Dixons, WHSmiths, Primarks, Clintons, Mothercare, Blockbuster/Gamestation. Please could you add these to the article, thanks.
-- Joshuarooney2006 14:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Better from whose perspective? Not those who want to buy wigs or yams, I'm sure. Those shops can be found on any high street in Britain, and so aren't worth mentioning. The Afro-Carribean shops are more unusual, and thus notible. 86.0.203.120 18:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The article does not conform to WP:NPOV. Ring modulator 16:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I can't see why, and in the absence of anything to the contrary here, I've removed the tag. Care to elaborate? 86.0.203.120 18:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I can't see any issues with the POV either. No reason given be person flagging. I'd vote to remove the tag unless someone can give a reason why 3tmx 23:26 7 Feb 2007
Let's just remove the thing. There's no reason for it; Ring Modulator didn't articulate one, and Martial B. decided to lecture rather than explain why it belongs. There should be an articulated reason for the application of that tag, especially when three distinct users, at least one of whom has never edited the body of the article, can't see why it's there. GeeZee 04:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
"Peckham is an area of great diversity: gang-related shootings, muggings and burglary characterise one picture whilst another emphasises the high population of artists and professionals."
So many problems with this snippet (and of course the rest of the article):
1) Since when are "gang-related shootings, muggings and burglary" constituent components of diversity?
2) Why use a colon?
3) "characterise one picture" - What kind of phraseology is that? What does it mean?!
4) "whilst another" - Another what?
I don't know anything about Peckham (and the problem is that after reading the article I still don't), but for the sake of sanity could somebody please rewrite, or even delete, this terrible article?
138.243.129.4
11:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I didn't write any of it, but I have a problem with very little of what you quote. Here goes.
1) Shootings, muggings, and burglary are not constitutent components of diversity, but the sentence doesn't read that way, either. Peckham is an area of great diversity because it's got a violent side as well as an artistic/professional side to it. Not "diversity" as in what "affirmative action" became called in the 1990s, but the actual meaning of the word: differences.
2) Why not?
3) Here, I agree.
4) Another picture.
Seriously, it's not that hard.
GeeZee 04:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Tommyhaych —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommyhaych ( talk • contribs) 07:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
North Peckham Estate had a merge tag to here, but I have merged it instead to North Peckham, as that article seemed a more natural merge, being about the same topic. However, seeing as I don't know a whole lot about Peckham, I couldnt decipher whether a) North Peckham was a geographical term or signified a more set-in-stone division ([[West Virginia/ Virginia) etc. and b) whether, if the term "North Peckham" does indeed refer universally to the estate, whether the estate is itself notable enough to warrant an article. I figured people watching this page would know, hence the tag. There's not much information there anyway, so if it isn't really a valid article topic it shouldn't take long to incorporate the info into this article. Cheers! Jdcooper ( talk) 02:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Having been brought up in Peckham I think this is a logical merge. The North Peckham article is really talking about the large housing estate rather than a geographic area and it would make more sense as a sub category of the Peckham article. Nshimbi 04:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Just deleted the "crime" section - it was nonsense. Peckham does not have a "murder a day" and Tony Blair did not brand the area "Pecknam" after Vietnam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fatherlukeduke ( talk • contribs) 12:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The text in the introduction mentions the following:
Peckham is a high-crime area with high levels of gang violence, for which it has a notorious reputation, despite a £290 million regeneration programme in the late 1990s and early 2000s
The reference to 'high crime' is essentially derived from a 2003 BBC news report which states that 3 murders happened "...not too far from where Damilola [Taylor] bled to death". The problem with this is that only 1 out of the 3 murders happened in Peckham. Not too far in this sentence is actually referring to Streatham, Lambeth. This is misleading.
...despite a £290 million regeneration programme
Not verified, say, with any sort of statistical data, merely opinion. Even so, the original text that this sentence is derived from claims that the regeneration is working. For example the source states: "The reality is that levels of crime have reduced year on year," he said. "The individuals who are involved in these type of crimes are a very small minority.
The remaining to sources used to cite this original text are irrelevant. One is from a UK polling website, the other is a Guardian opinion piece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desilentiorules ( talk • contribs) 19:38, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Harriet Harman lived/s in Herne Hill not Peckham
Victor Ogunwusi & Agata Owczarek are sadly not notable enough for inclusion in notable residents as they don't even qualify for a Wiki page on themselves —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.71.148 ( talk) 17:49, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Peckham is in Southwark NOT Lambeth. I changed it. 82.4.184.39 ( talk) 22:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
A number of statements in the article on Peckham are inaccurate because they conflate Peckham the place as a town and Peckham the name of one of the five wards that make up Peckham as the place. Over the last year or so I have made some small edits to correct some of these erors but then they have been deleted. Can someone explain to me how to get these edits accepted? Peckhamresident ( talk) 01:27, 10 July 2011 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Peckhamresident ( talk • contribs) 01:24, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
The two Ferrero La Marmora brothers at the Marmora dab page were senior officers in the Sardinian army in the Crimea, Alfonso a commander. Whether that gained either of them a street in Peckham, I don't know. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 23:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I doubt Marmora Road was named after these brothers, it's more likely an alternative pronunciation of Marmara. Nshimbi ( talk) 23:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I've decided to tag this section about Crimean War related street names as dubious since they are largely or all apparently locations in Turkey, thus only indirectly associated with the war and not part of the theatre of conflict. Surely if they were commemorating the Crimean War, locations in the Crimea would be picked. I'm not that familiar with the area but think the houses are largely twentieth century, an impression confirmed by Google Street View. Is it more likely that it commemorates the Gallipoli theatre in the Great War?
Citations about the Russo-Turkish War are not pertinent - unless the street names in fact commemorate this conflict, which would seem unlikely. And they said nothing about the naming of streets in Peckham anyway. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 12:48, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
The citation is dated 1878, which is during the Russo-Turkish War, not the Crimean War, and the citations say nothing about naming of streets in Peckham. Any connections you are making are thus assumed. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 13:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
One does not have to provide evidence to disprove things written in Wikipedia - this is fundamental. The onus is to prove that something is the case. All we know is that names are, or seem likely to be, places which are now in modern Turkey. Listing documents which happen to have these place names in them does nothing in regard to the verification of the actual reason for the naming of the streets. These places have played parts in various parts of history that may have made them candidates for Peckham street names. Your speculation may be correct but it is only speculation.
The roads are in Peckham. This is not a matter of dispute. My point is that your citations do not address the naming of these (Peckham) streets, not whether they are in Peckham. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 14:07, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
See the title I gave this talk page section. Busy at the moment - can you hold off until I get a chance to reply fully (this evening or poss. tomorrow morning)? Also, have had an idea for some sources that may help, or even nail it if we're lucky... Mutt Lunker ( talk) 14:41, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Didn't find anything definitive and nothing directly addressing the naming of the streets. However in these maps on the Southwark Council web site, the 1888 Dulwich/Sydenham map (high res. version needed) shows Mondania (sic), Therapia and Marmora Roads and an unnamed, partial Scutari Road, with no buildings. Clearly not connected with the First World War then.
This forum page is of interest but some of it contradictory and doubtful and clearly wouldn't count as a reliable source and doesn't point to any.
It's clear that the streets predate the First World War, Scutari barracks are associated with Florence Nightingale and British troops in transit or return from the Crimea and the other streets are apparently also places in the Istanbul area so may also have Crimean War connections, possibly indicated in the document you linked to. If I were to speculate, a Crimean War connection does not seem unreasonble. However, without a reliable source yet actually stating it's why the streets were named, that's WP:SYNTH.
Not going to make a stab at rewording the article at this late hour, if indeed that's appropriate. Will sleep on it. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 01:03, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Good work. Have edited to reinstate the Marmara/Marmora dab (seems reasonable that 4 streets built in the same period would have the linked thread of places so close to each other) and removed the dubious tag. Have put a fact tag there though until we have a source which actual nails the naming, beyond (reasonable as it may seem) speculation. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 09:37, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
Well, you asked for a third opinion, but in my view you don't need it at all. It seems to me that you are moving forward rather quickly and without outside help. I was going to suggest a physical visit to the council offices as a possible solution, but you are way ahead of me. If you do still want an impartial opinion on any aspect of the article or the discussion, please let me know and I'll do my best to give one— Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 13:11, 31 August 2011 (UTC) |