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The introduction for this article is a bit confusing. Do we no need to write if Pavel Shatev is Bulgarian and Macedonian in a same time? Why not just write:
Pavel Potsev Shatev (Bulgarian and Macedonian: Павел Поцев Шатев), (1882 - 1951), was a lawyer, anarchist and a member of the left wing of the Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization (IMARO), later becoming an left-wing political activist.[1][2][3][4]
How does this sound to the neutral or Bulgarian editors?
Toci ( talk) 21:38, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Pavel Shatev, an anarchist by political beliefs, worked for the liberation of Macedonia from Ottoman rule. Shatev and his friends formed the terrorist group "Gemidjii" which carried out several bombings in order to attract the attention of European powers in regards to the deplorable situation in Macedonia. Wikipedia, offering a free-approach to any piece of information, is abused by Bulgarian nationals in order to spin facts relating to Macedonian culture and history to the favor of Bulgaria. Pavel Shatev fought for Macedonia and so did all Macedonian revolutionaries. What you are fighting for is a lost cause. It is not your war. Macedonia is not your country, but you do love it, and you do want it, and Bulgaria did become an aide to fascist Germany in order to annex Macedonia to its territory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.225.103.63 ( talk) 08:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The neutrality of this article is very poor. Writing that Pavel Shatev is Bulgarian by refering to "reliable" Bulgarian sources is absurd. Please refer to neutral sources to support your claim, especially for persons that have chosen to live and die for and in Socialistic Republic of Macedonia ( Toci ( talk) 21:27, 9 November 2013 (UTC))
ФОРУМ: Неодамна, во едно интервју, висока функционерка на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, зборувајќи за тезата дека левицата во Македонија секогаш била ориентирана кон Белград, а десницата кон Софија, ми го посочи примерот на Димитар Влахов - левичар од ВМРО (Обединета), кој се декларирал како Бугарин.
КАТАРЏИЕВ: Да, тоа е точно. И не само Димитар Влахов. Павел Шатев, Панко Брашнаров, Ризо Ризов и др. Меѓутоа, овде тезата е погрешно поставена. Не е работата во тоа дали левицата се определуваше за Србија, а десницата за Бугарија. Тука се мешаат поимите. Практично, ни левицата ни десницата не ја доведуваа во прашање својата бугарска провениенција. Тоа ќе го доведе дури и Димитар Влахов во 1948 година на седница на Политбирото, кога говореше за постоењето на македонска нација, да рече дека во 1931-32 година (then IMRO (United) issued for the first time the idea of separate Macedonian nation) е направена грешка.Сите тие ветерани останаа само на нивото на политички, а не и на национален сепаратизам... Така, во текот на НОБ, кога дојде времето за поврзување, постоеше огромен јаз во свеста на Македонецот од трите дела на земјата. Сите велеа дека се Македонци, ама сите на тој поим му даваа поинаква содржина. Кои доаѓаа од Бугарија, тие сметаа дека треба да дојдат на чело и да ја водат Македонија, особено ветераните како Шатев и Влахов. Тие, практично, се чувствуваа како Бугари. ВМРО (Об.) не мрдна од обичниот политички македонски сепаратизам.
Rough translation of Katradzhievs answer: And not only Dimitar Vlahov, Pavel Shatev, Panko Brasnarov, Rizo Rizov etc. (considered themselves to be Bulgarians) . But this thesis is incorrectly set here. It is not about whether the left IMRO wing opted for Serbia, and the rightt to Bulgaria... Practically, neither the left wing nor the right were questioning their Bulgarian provenance. This will bring even Dimitar Vlahov on the 1948 session of the Politburo, when speaking of the existence of the Macedonian nation, to say that in the year 1931-32 (then left wing of IMRO issued for the first time the idea of separate Macedonian nation) is made a mistake. All this veterans (IMRO left wing) remained only at the level of political, not of national separatism... Thus, during the Second World War, there was a huge gap in the consciousness of the Macedonians from the three parts of the region. All said that they are Macedonians, but all of them understood that idea in different way. That coming from Bulgaria, they thought that they should come to the forefront and lead Macedonia, especially veterans like Shatev and Vlahov . They practically felt themselves as Bulgarians. The left wing of IMRO didn't move from the ordinary political Macedonian separatism (i.e. it didn't developed national separatism).
Академик Катарџиев, Иван. Верувам во националниот имунитет на македонецот, интервjу за списание „Форум“, 22 jули 2000, броj 329. Jingiby ( talk) 16:33, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
In Mark Mazower's book Salonica, City of Ghosts: Christians, Muslims and Jews 1430–1950 page 248 there is the title BULGARIANS AND MACEDONIANS. to be "Bulgarian" initially meant to support the Exarchgate : it was a linguistic-religious rather a natinonal category. In page 249 about the boatmen : Most of IMRO youthfull members were not much bothered about the old disputes over dead sacred languages whose motto was "Neither God nor Master"-and the devout supporters of the Bulgarian Exarchate a gulf emerged.. One from the 2 survivors was Pavel Shatev minister of Justice of... Yugoslavia! Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 11:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Please do not erase sourced information! ForeignerFromTheEast 17:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Please, do not modify this article significantly, without any discussion and reliable sources! Thank you. Jingby ( talk) 11:44, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
I did not understand the last edit. In the source after the ethnic identification as Macedonian Shatev described himself clearly as Bulgarian. Jingby ( talk) 17:34, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
I have added several reliable sources. Jingby ( talk) 18:14, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
@ Asilvering, where do you see his affiliation with anarchism? Appears to be indirect, if there's a connection. czar 04:28, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
@ Gurther @ Jingiby None of your recent edits appear to be improvements. I'd recommend self-reverts. This article isn't about IMRO (United) and the Macedonian identity. It's about Pavel Shatev. I don't understand the insistince of using Katardžiev especially when you already have other secondary sources about Shatev's identity and who even support the content directly. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 11:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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The introduction for this article is a bit confusing. Do we no need to write if Pavel Shatev is Bulgarian and Macedonian in a same time? Why not just write:
Pavel Potsev Shatev (Bulgarian and Macedonian: Павел Поцев Шатев), (1882 - 1951), was a lawyer, anarchist and a member of the left wing of the Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization (IMARO), later becoming an left-wing political activist.[1][2][3][4]
How does this sound to the neutral or Bulgarian editors?
Toci ( talk) 21:38, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Pavel Shatev, an anarchist by political beliefs, worked for the liberation of Macedonia from Ottoman rule. Shatev and his friends formed the terrorist group "Gemidjii" which carried out several bombings in order to attract the attention of European powers in regards to the deplorable situation in Macedonia. Wikipedia, offering a free-approach to any piece of information, is abused by Bulgarian nationals in order to spin facts relating to Macedonian culture and history to the favor of Bulgaria. Pavel Shatev fought for Macedonia and so did all Macedonian revolutionaries. What you are fighting for is a lost cause. It is not your war. Macedonia is not your country, but you do love it, and you do want it, and Bulgaria did become an aide to fascist Germany in order to annex Macedonia to its territory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.225.103.63 ( talk) 08:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The neutrality of this article is very poor. Writing that Pavel Shatev is Bulgarian by refering to "reliable" Bulgarian sources is absurd. Please refer to neutral sources to support your claim, especially for persons that have chosen to live and die for and in Socialistic Republic of Macedonia ( Toci ( talk) 21:27, 9 November 2013 (UTC))
ФОРУМ: Неодамна, во едно интервју, висока функционерка на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, зборувајќи за тезата дека левицата во Македонија секогаш била ориентирана кон Белград, а десницата кон Софија, ми го посочи примерот на Димитар Влахов - левичар од ВМРО (Обединета), кој се декларирал како Бугарин.
КАТАРЏИЕВ: Да, тоа е точно. И не само Димитар Влахов. Павел Шатев, Панко Брашнаров, Ризо Ризов и др. Меѓутоа, овде тезата е погрешно поставена. Не е работата во тоа дали левицата се определуваше за Србија, а десницата за Бугарија. Тука се мешаат поимите. Практично, ни левицата ни десницата не ја доведуваа во прашање својата бугарска провениенција. Тоа ќе го доведе дури и Димитар Влахов во 1948 година на седница на Политбирото, кога говореше за постоењето на македонска нација, да рече дека во 1931-32 година (then IMRO (United) issued for the first time the idea of separate Macedonian nation) е направена грешка.Сите тие ветерани останаа само на нивото на политички, а не и на национален сепаратизам... Така, во текот на НОБ, кога дојде времето за поврзување, постоеше огромен јаз во свеста на Македонецот од трите дела на земјата. Сите велеа дека се Македонци, ама сите на тој поим му даваа поинаква содржина. Кои доаѓаа од Бугарија, тие сметаа дека треба да дојдат на чело и да ја водат Македонија, особено ветераните како Шатев и Влахов. Тие, практично, се чувствуваа како Бугари. ВМРО (Об.) не мрдна од обичниот политички македонски сепаратизам.
Rough translation of Katradzhievs answer: And not only Dimitar Vlahov, Pavel Shatev, Panko Brasnarov, Rizo Rizov etc. (considered themselves to be Bulgarians) . But this thesis is incorrectly set here. It is not about whether the left IMRO wing opted for Serbia, and the rightt to Bulgaria... Practically, neither the left wing nor the right were questioning their Bulgarian provenance. This will bring even Dimitar Vlahov on the 1948 session of the Politburo, when speaking of the existence of the Macedonian nation, to say that in the year 1931-32 (then left wing of IMRO issued for the first time the idea of separate Macedonian nation) is made a mistake. All this veterans (IMRO left wing) remained only at the level of political, not of national separatism... Thus, during the Second World War, there was a huge gap in the consciousness of the Macedonians from the three parts of the region. All said that they are Macedonians, but all of them understood that idea in different way. That coming from Bulgaria, they thought that they should come to the forefront and lead Macedonia, especially veterans like Shatev and Vlahov . They practically felt themselves as Bulgarians. The left wing of IMRO didn't move from the ordinary political Macedonian separatism (i.e. it didn't developed national separatism).
Академик Катарџиев, Иван. Верувам во националниот имунитет на македонецот, интервjу за списание „Форум“, 22 jули 2000, броj 329. Jingiby ( talk) 16:33, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
In Mark Mazower's book Salonica, City of Ghosts: Christians, Muslims and Jews 1430–1950 page 248 there is the title BULGARIANS AND MACEDONIANS. to be "Bulgarian" initially meant to support the Exarchgate : it was a linguistic-religious rather a natinonal category. In page 249 about the boatmen : Most of IMRO youthfull members were not much bothered about the old disputes over dead sacred languages whose motto was "Neither God nor Master"-and the devout supporters of the Bulgarian Exarchate a gulf emerged.. One from the 2 survivors was Pavel Shatev minister of Justice of... Yugoslavia! Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 11:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Please do not erase sourced information! ForeignerFromTheEast 17:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Please, do not modify this article significantly, without any discussion and reliable sources! Thank you. Jingby ( talk) 11:44, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
I did not understand the last edit. In the source after the ethnic identification as Macedonian Shatev described himself clearly as Bulgarian. Jingby ( talk) 17:34, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
I have added several reliable sources. Jingby ( talk) 18:14, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
@ Asilvering, where do you see his affiliation with anarchism? Appears to be indirect, if there's a connection. czar 04:28, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
@ Gurther @ Jingiby None of your recent edits appear to be improvements. I'd recommend self-reverts. This article isn't about IMRO (United) and the Macedonian identity. It's about Pavel Shatev. I don't understand the insistince of using Katardžiev especially when you already have other secondary sources about Shatev's identity and who even support the content directly. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 11:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)