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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 10 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Grenadine13 ( article contribs).
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jjdgzd. Peer reviewers: Eewaggoner.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 06:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
"After retrieving his body, which had been protected on the field by Odysseus and Ajax (Telamonian Aias)..."
Wait, what? Isn't it Menelaus and Ajax? Odysseus was still injured and didn't take part in that battle. 212.250.138.33 ( talk) 02:38, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
It seems to me that the Greek heroes had attained a level of divinity which set them apart from ordinary mortals - even though the Greeks saw them also as historical personages. I am sure that you are aware that at times these heroes, formally known as "divine heroes" were even referred to as "gods" in a casual use of the word. Since to us they are even less historical then they were to the Greeks, what would you call them if not deities (a term which encompasses supernatural personages of ranks below that of the gods)?! Haiduc 12:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Who is right? According to the movie "troy" Patroclus was Achilles cousin and not his friend, and that Patroclus was younger than Achilles. So I'm wondering about what is the correct information about Patroclus?.(Bader=21:47 , 9/4/2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.166.179.101 ( talk) 18:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous user added the redlinked word " therapon" to the introduction. I wasn't familiar with this word in English, and I couldn't find it in an English-language dictionary, the Oxford Classical Dictionary or even in Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon. I eventually found it in a Homeric lexicon (meaning "squire", roughly). It's apparently also used in koine to mean "servant" or "attendant" (so used in the New Testament, in the letter to the Hebrews), but I'm not familiar with the word's meaning in a Homeric or classical sense. I assume it's derived from ϑέρὰπεία ("service, attendance, medical treatment or cure"). Is this a term that should be recognized? I don't think that a casual reader should have to hunt for the meaning as I did. If it's not a widely known word, and the link remains red, it's not very helpful to have it in the description of Patroclus. Anyone object to removal? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 20:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 20:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't the name of the article be Patroklos? It's the direct transliteration of the Greek spelling. 70.128.46.25 ( talk) 21:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
1. "Menoetius was a member of the Argonauts in his youth. He had several marriages, and in different versions of the tale four different women are named as the mother of Patroclus."
What are the sources for the different versions?
2. "The death of Achilles is given in sources other than the Iliad."
What are these sources then?
ICE77 ( talk) 07:20, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Well? The sources are this site and related ones! Regards, 96.19.147.40 ( talk) 02:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes
Please see the "Missing sources" section above, dating to 2011, to start, to understand that the perspective I am about to state is not new, and not singular or isolated. I merely extend the examination that this previous editor did, to the whole of the article.
I will begin with my conclusion, and then justify it: The article is an embarrassment to the encyclopedia, in its flouting the stated WP rules regarding sourcing and original research by editors. The article is a student essay (and poor for want of sourcing), with only sporadically appearing citations to primary sources, often vague at that. Most sentences and paragraphs have in fact no sources cited, despite their non-common knowledge content (most of article). On the few occasions that a citation appears, only primary sources are cited, and incompletely, and without standard links as can be offered to classical sources (most of remainder of article). There is a single exception, to the book of Martin; hence, a single quality secondary source appears in the whole of the article, as of this date.
Finally, in addition to its failure to allow for the verification of its factual content, the article repeated states interpretive conclusions regarding historical events, stating matters as fact without the required expert attribution (secondary sources), and so disconnects this article from published expert opinion, making it a mere pose of encyclopedic writing. In short, in its reliance on unsourced material or primary sources, and so on editor expertise, the the article is near to unverifiable, and almost entirely original research, in violation of WP:OR and WP:VERIFY. Le Prof 73.210.154.39 ( talk) 06:48, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Patroclus is a mythological character. It should be understood that every biographical statement in this article pertains to the legends surrounding the character as delineated in the Iliad, not as an historical personage. As such, I find it rather a nuisance to see all the big boxes complaining about the article. In addition, the frequent "non-primary source needed" notes also seem ill-placed considering that nigh everything that has ever been written about Patroclus is derived from the Iliad, a primary source as it were. Complaining that the article is derived from a single source seems rather pointless considering that there is only one source (besides the occasional and mostly insignificant references to him in other works of antiquity, as well as the Odyssey); it seems no different than whining that everything that is known about Chandler Bing is derived from a single source: Friends, who doesn't exist outside of that universe. Likewise, Patroclus exists only within the universe of the Homeric epics: any secondary/tertiary sources would invariably be interpretations of that one source. In my mind it is pointless to insist on something more. Philologick ( talk) 16:02, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
I am going to focus on this article, specifically Patroclus' relationship with Achilles, for a class I am currently taking. I have compiled a few possible references. Please let me know if you have any suggestions.
Ledbetter, Grace M.. “Achilles' Self-address: Iliad 16.7-19”. The American Journal of Philology 114.4 (1993): 481–491. Percy, William Armstrong. “Reconsiderations About Greek Homosexualities.” Journal of Homosexuality 49.3-4 (2005): 13-61. Rabel, Robert J. “Cebriones the Diver: Iliad 16.733-76.” The American Journal of Philology 114.3 (1993): 339-41. Dowden, Ken. The Uses of Greek Mythology. London: Routledge, 1992. Print.
Jjdgzd ( talk) 20:33, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
After making some additions to the page (including clarifying information and updating proper citations), I also corrected both Patroklos' and Achilleus' names to the spelling used by Homer in the Iliad. However, I am unable to figure out how to change the title to the correct spelling.
Jjdgzd ( talk) 05:18, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
Hi all! I'm a student editor working on Achilles and Patroclus for a class assignment. I'll be editing the Relationship with Achilles section here for continuity across both articles. I'll likely edit down and move over any information that is specifically related to their relationship, as that is the purpose of the Achilles and Patroclus page! Grenadine13 ( talk) 02:04, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 14 August 2023 and 8 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Cherryfly ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Cherryfly ( talk) 04:38, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
Hi everyone! I'm working on a project about adding references to mythological Wikipedia pages-- I've included four so far. Please feel free to edit or delete if they don't seem necessary. Thanks! — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Cherryfly (
talk •
contribs) 02:29, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Patroclus article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 10 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Grenadine13 ( article contribs).
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jjdgzd. Peer reviewers: Eewaggoner.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 06:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
"After retrieving his body, which had been protected on the field by Odysseus and Ajax (Telamonian Aias)..."
Wait, what? Isn't it Menelaus and Ajax? Odysseus was still injured and didn't take part in that battle. 212.250.138.33 ( talk) 02:38, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
It seems to me that the Greek heroes had attained a level of divinity which set them apart from ordinary mortals - even though the Greeks saw them also as historical personages. I am sure that you are aware that at times these heroes, formally known as "divine heroes" were even referred to as "gods" in a casual use of the word. Since to us they are even less historical then they were to the Greeks, what would you call them if not deities (a term which encompasses supernatural personages of ranks below that of the gods)?! Haiduc 12:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Who is right? According to the movie "troy" Patroclus was Achilles cousin and not his friend, and that Patroclus was younger than Achilles. So I'm wondering about what is the correct information about Patroclus?.(Bader=21:47 , 9/4/2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.166.179.101 ( talk) 18:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous user added the redlinked word " therapon" to the introduction. I wasn't familiar with this word in English, and I couldn't find it in an English-language dictionary, the Oxford Classical Dictionary or even in Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon. I eventually found it in a Homeric lexicon (meaning "squire", roughly). It's apparently also used in koine to mean "servant" or "attendant" (so used in the New Testament, in the letter to the Hebrews), but I'm not familiar with the word's meaning in a Homeric or classical sense. I assume it's derived from ϑέρὰπεία ("service, attendance, medical treatment or cure"). Is this a term that should be recognized? I don't think that a casual reader should have to hunt for the meaning as I did. If it's not a widely known word, and the link remains red, it's not very helpful to have it in the description of Patroclus. Anyone object to removal? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 20:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 20:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't the name of the article be Patroklos? It's the direct transliteration of the Greek spelling. 70.128.46.25 ( talk) 21:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
1. "Menoetius was a member of the Argonauts in his youth. He had several marriages, and in different versions of the tale four different women are named as the mother of Patroclus."
What are the sources for the different versions?
2. "The death of Achilles is given in sources other than the Iliad."
What are these sources then?
ICE77 ( talk) 07:20, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Well? The sources are this site and related ones! Regards, 96.19.147.40 ( talk) 02:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes
Please see the "Missing sources" section above, dating to 2011, to start, to understand that the perspective I am about to state is not new, and not singular or isolated. I merely extend the examination that this previous editor did, to the whole of the article.
I will begin with my conclusion, and then justify it: The article is an embarrassment to the encyclopedia, in its flouting the stated WP rules regarding sourcing and original research by editors. The article is a student essay (and poor for want of sourcing), with only sporadically appearing citations to primary sources, often vague at that. Most sentences and paragraphs have in fact no sources cited, despite their non-common knowledge content (most of article). On the few occasions that a citation appears, only primary sources are cited, and incompletely, and without standard links as can be offered to classical sources (most of remainder of article). There is a single exception, to the book of Martin; hence, a single quality secondary source appears in the whole of the article, as of this date.
Finally, in addition to its failure to allow for the verification of its factual content, the article repeated states interpretive conclusions regarding historical events, stating matters as fact without the required expert attribution (secondary sources), and so disconnects this article from published expert opinion, making it a mere pose of encyclopedic writing. In short, in its reliance on unsourced material or primary sources, and so on editor expertise, the the article is near to unverifiable, and almost entirely original research, in violation of WP:OR and WP:VERIFY. Le Prof 73.210.154.39 ( talk) 06:48, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Patroclus is a mythological character. It should be understood that every biographical statement in this article pertains to the legends surrounding the character as delineated in the Iliad, not as an historical personage. As such, I find it rather a nuisance to see all the big boxes complaining about the article. In addition, the frequent "non-primary source needed" notes also seem ill-placed considering that nigh everything that has ever been written about Patroclus is derived from the Iliad, a primary source as it were. Complaining that the article is derived from a single source seems rather pointless considering that there is only one source (besides the occasional and mostly insignificant references to him in other works of antiquity, as well as the Odyssey); it seems no different than whining that everything that is known about Chandler Bing is derived from a single source: Friends, who doesn't exist outside of that universe. Likewise, Patroclus exists only within the universe of the Homeric epics: any secondary/tertiary sources would invariably be interpretations of that one source. In my mind it is pointless to insist on something more. Philologick ( talk) 16:02, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
I am going to focus on this article, specifically Patroclus' relationship with Achilles, for a class I am currently taking. I have compiled a few possible references. Please let me know if you have any suggestions.
Ledbetter, Grace M.. “Achilles' Self-address: Iliad 16.7-19”. The American Journal of Philology 114.4 (1993): 481–491. Percy, William Armstrong. “Reconsiderations About Greek Homosexualities.” Journal of Homosexuality 49.3-4 (2005): 13-61. Rabel, Robert J. “Cebriones the Diver: Iliad 16.733-76.” The American Journal of Philology 114.3 (1993): 339-41. Dowden, Ken. The Uses of Greek Mythology. London: Routledge, 1992. Print.
Jjdgzd ( talk) 20:33, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
After making some additions to the page (including clarifying information and updating proper citations), I also corrected both Patroklos' and Achilleus' names to the spelling used by Homer in the Iliad. However, I am unable to figure out how to change the title to the correct spelling.
Jjdgzd ( talk) 05:18, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
Hi all! I'm a student editor working on Achilles and Patroclus for a class assignment. I'll be editing the Relationship with Achilles section here for continuity across both articles. I'll likely edit down and move over any information that is specifically related to their relationship, as that is the purpose of the Achilles and Patroclus page! Grenadine13 ( talk) 02:04, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 14 August 2023 and 8 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Cherryfly ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Cherryfly ( talk) 04:38, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
Hi everyone! I'm working on a project about adding references to mythological Wikipedia pages-- I've included four so far. Please feel free to edit or delete if they don't seem necessary. Thanks! — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Cherryfly (
talk •
contribs) 02:29, 17 November 2023 (UTC)