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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 6 January 2020 and 12 April 2020. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Hannahhelm. Peer reviewers:
JamarcusW,
History2112.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 06:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Somebody has messed up the etymological information in this article with some irrelevant information from Greek. The word patrician comes from Latin, not Greek. Greek is a beautiful and extremely important language, but it is no more relevant to the etymology of patrician than is Swedish, Albanian, Hindi, Persian, or any other Indo-European language.
Although the Greek word for father, πατήρ, looks exactly like the Latin pater when transliterated into the Latin alphabet, that's simply because both words developed from the same Indo-European root, as did the English word father. (I don't know why the editor spelled the Greek word πάτερ instead of πατήρ, unless that's how it's spelled in Modern Greek, which certainly has no relevance at all to this article.) Latin did not develop from Greek, it developed alongside Greek from a common ancestor, and they were separate languages long before the Latin word patricius was formed. I'm going to remove the etymological references to Greek.
I'm not, however, going to remove the Greek transliteration of patricius, πατρίκιος, and its variants, since Greek was the language of the Eastern and Byzantine Empires. But it's important to note that πατρίκιος was derived from patricius, not the other way around. The Latin word patricius came first, then later it passed into Greek as πατρίκιος and later still into English as patrician.-- Jim10701 ( talk) 08:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't Patrician and Plebian be capitalized? They are the proper name of a class of Romans, as opposed to the adjective "patrician" or "plebian". InformationvsInjustice ( talk) 21:14, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
This is something that has me baffled, & I was hoping this article might offer a clue to the answer.
Under the Principate & the succeeding time of the Early Empire, the Patrician class steadily decreased in numbers, to the point that the only Patrician family I know of that existed at the close of the second century & could trace its lineage to the Republic were the shadowy Cornelii Scipiones Salvidieni Orfiti, whose founding member had been adopted by an otherwise unknown patrician Ser. Cornelius Scipio. Not too surprising, since the benefits of the Patrician class over the rest of the consular senatorial families had been reduced to a negligible level, & that even consular senatorial families struggled to survive beyond two or three generations. However, families that could be seen as suitably ancient -- a measure that grew ever shorter as time passed -- were routinely promoted to Patrician status during the first few centuries of the Empire. For example, the Acilii Glabriones who were a Plebeian clan in Republican times were promoted by the second century to Patrician status. The same is the case with a number of other families, not as well known. Since there was no benefit to Roman society to have Patrician families that I can see -- by Augustus' lifetime, even the sacerdotal duties of the Patricians had been assumed in many cases by Plebeian families -- why did Emperors feel the need to promote individuals to this class. Even as an honorific, it would not appear to be very meaningful. Sadly, this article doesn't even touch on the fact that a number of Emperors (e.g. Claudius, Vespasian, Marcus Aurelius, & others) did replenish the attenuated ranks of the Patrician class with new adlections, let alone attempt an explanation. -- llywrch ( talk) 07:04, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Where is this list of names taken from? I ask because two of them -- gen Saccia & gens Volumnia -- I can very little information about them. By this, I mean I can only find one or two individuals each, who are described as plebeians. Does this simply mean there are holes in Wikipedia's coverage? Or is this list simply something thrown together as an example of original research? -- llywrch ( talk) 23:12, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
There are some errors in the citation templates that ought to be fixed. Ifly6 ( talk) 16:52, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Is this right? "If a marriage was to occur between a patrician and a plebeian, the children of that marriage would then be given patrician status." My understanding was that the children would take their status from their father? So, e.g., Mark Antony was a plebeian because his father was, even though his mother was a Julia. Is this referring to some earlier system or does the sentence need to be reworded? john k ( talk) 17:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 6 January 2020 and 12 April 2020. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Hannahhelm. Peer reviewers:
JamarcusW,
History2112.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 06:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Somebody has messed up the etymological information in this article with some irrelevant information from Greek. The word patrician comes from Latin, not Greek. Greek is a beautiful and extremely important language, but it is no more relevant to the etymology of patrician than is Swedish, Albanian, Hindi, Persian, or any other Indo-European language.
Although the Greek word for father, πατήρ, looks exactly like the Latin pater when transliterated into the Latin alphabet, that's simply because both words developed from the same Indo-European root, as did the English word father. (I don't know why the editor spelled the Greek word πάτερ instead of πατήρ, unless that's how it's spelled in Modern Greek, which certainly has no relevance at all to this article.) Latin did not develop from Greek, it developed alongside Greek from a common ancestor, and they were separate languages long before the Latin word patricius was formed. I'm going to remove the etymological references to Greek.
I'm not, however, going to remove the Greek transliteration of patricius, πατρίκιος, and its variants, since Greek was the language of the Eastern and Byzantine Empires. But it's important to note that πατρίκιος was derived from patricius, not the other way around. The Latin word patricius came first, then later it passed into Greek as πατρίκιος and later still into English as patrician.-- Jim10701 ( talk) 08:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't Patrician and Plebian be capitalized? They are the proper name of a class of Romans, as opposed to the adjective "patrician" or "plebian". InformationvsInjustice ( talk) 21:14, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
This is something that has me baffled, & I was hoping this article might offer a clue to the answer.
Under the Principate & the succeeding time of the Early Empire, the Patrician class steadily decreased in numbers, to the point that the only Patrician family I know of that existed at the close of the second century & could trace its lineage to the Republic were the shadowy Cornelii Scipiones Salvidieni Orfiti, whose founding member had been adopted by an otherwise unknown patrician Ser. Cornelius Scipio. Not too surprising, since the benefits of the Patrician class over the rest of the consular senatorial families had been reduced to a negligible level, & that even consular senatorial families struggled to survive beyond two or three generations. However, families that could be seen as suitably ancient -- a measure that grew ever shorter as time passed -- were routinely promoted to Patrician status during the first few centuries of the Empire. For example, the Acilii Glabriones who were a Plebeian clan in Republican times were promoted by the second century to Patrician status. The same is the case with a number of other families, not as well known. Since there was no benefit to Roman society to have Patrician families that I can see -- by Augustus' lifetime, even the sacerdotal duties of the Patricians had been assumed in many cases by Plebeian families -- why did Emperors feel the need to promote individuals to this class. Even as an honorific, it would not appear to be very meaningful. Sadly, this article doesn't even touch on the fact that a number of Emperors (e.g. Claudius, Vespasian, Marcus Aurelius, & others) did replenish the attenuated ranks of the Patrician class with new adlections, let alone attempt an explanation. -- llywrch ( talk) 07:04, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Where is this list of names taken from? I ask because two of them -- gen Saccia & gens Volumnia -- I can very little information about them. By this, I mean I can only find one or two individuals each, who are described as plebeians. Does this simply mean there are holes in Wikipedia's coverage? Or is this list simply something thrown together as an example of original research? -- llywrch ( talk) 23:12, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
There are some errors in the citation templates that ought to be fixed. Ifly6 ( talk) 16:52, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Is this right? "If a marriage was to occur between a patrician and a plebeian, the children of that marriage would then be given patrician status." My understanding was that the children would take their status from their father? So, e.g., Mark Antony was a plebeian because his father was, even though his mother was a Julia. Is this referring to some earlier system or does the sentence need to be reworded? john k ( talk) 17:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)