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What about reports of KGB infiltration of the Orthodox Church during the Soviet period? As a high ranking cleric, the Patriarch would have been involved.
--Raskolnikov
It was a common practice for the KGB to give code names to people they kept files on. Patriarch Alexius being a high ranking church official was obviously under KGB surveillance. It does not make him a KGB agent. It is also quite ridiculous to use obviously biased Gleb Yakunin ( a controversial priest expelled from the Orthodox church) and Yevgenia Albats (liberal Russian-Jewish journalist) as “independent confirmation”.
Fisenko
21:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
There should be information added about his reluctance to having dialogue with the Catholic Church, and his refusal to allow a visit by Pope John Paul II.
Being critical of the subject of the article? Let's anyway try not to disinform people, even if someone happens to be an GLM activist. The Wikipedia is not the right place to disinform on ANYONE. -- just someone
Since when diatribes of a priest who was excommunicated from the Russian Orthodox Church are regarded as reliable sources for Wikipedia? And Albats is the most severely partisan journalist in Russia; her allegations are anything but partial and/or reliable. Currently the article reads like a deliberate slur and contradicts our policies on WP:BLP. -- Ghirla -трёп- 16:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The reference provided makes the clear point that prior to the 1980's the KGB normally referred to everyone with one code name or another... even those whom they were persecuting. That is simply a fact, and examples of people whom the KGB was after being referred to by a code name can easily be provided. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 21:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Biophys raised an objection to my referencing in a footnote the material on this page as being from a "personal blog": http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/patalexei.htm
As can easily be seen it is not a blog, and I did not write what it one it. It contains a post to a yahoo group by a ROCOR priest who was on the joint commission for reconciliation between the MP and ROCOR -- Fr. Alexander Lebedeff. He has simply provided a translation into English of an interview in Isvestia. Now, I could have made the same edit, and simply referenced Isvestia, but I think most readers who do not have backlog copies of Isvestia around the house, and do not speak or read Russian would like to to read a translation of what is actually referred to. The information is from a reliable source, and is a translation of a reliable source. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 01:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Pat A.: "Being a person of the Church, I must take on myself responsibility for all that occurred in the life of my Church: not only for the good, but also for the difficult, the sorrowful, the erroneous."
Pat. A.: "Today we can say that falsehood is interspersed in his Declaration, which stated as its goal 'placing the Church into proper relations with the Soviet government.' But these relations--and in the Declaration they are clearly defined as the submission of the Church to the interests of governmental politics--are exactly those which are incorrect from the point of view of the Church."
Pat. A.: "Of people, then, to whom these compromises, silence, forced passivity or expressions of loyalty that were permitted by the Church leadership in those days, have caused pain -- of these people, not only before God, but also before them, I ask forgiveness, understanding, and prayers."
Unfortunately, this is not too informative. It is not clear at all what he means. Of course "Izvestija" can be cited, but you should check yourself that citation is correct. Biophys ( talk) 02:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Yahoo group is not a reliable source, Izvestia is. Please provide the reference to Izvestia, and add something like English translation is available at [yahooaddress] Alex Bakharev ( talk) 04:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
A reliable source that supports the following assertion of fact is needed, or else the assertion needs to be deleted:
Which archive documents are we talking about here, and where did you get this information.? Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 04:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Do not you know that collaboration of Russian Orthodox Church and Alexius with the KGB is very well established in numerous reliable sources? Look, for example this article by Keith Armes who is is associate director of the Institute for the Study of Conflict, Ideology and Policy of Boston University:
The opening of some KGB archives since August 1991 has made available for the first time clear evidence of the subordination of the Orthodox hierarchy to the Soviet government. An investigative journalist, Alexander Nezhny, was able to establish the close relationship between a number of bishops and the “organs,” and to determine the identities of the bishops involved on the basis of the chronology of missions abroad undertaken by hierarchs at the behest of the KGB and references to the agent names by which they were known. In particular, the KGB affiliation of three prominent hierarchs is now established: the recently deposed Metropolitan Philaret of Kiev (code name “Antonov”), Metropolitan Yuvenali of Krutisk and Kolomna, who was head of the foreign relations department of the patriarchate (code name “Adamant”), and Metropolitan Pitirim of Volokolamsk and Yurev, head of the publishing department of the patriarchate (code name “Abbat”). It is also established that the present patriarch, Aleksi II, served the KGB under the poetic name “Blackbird” (Drozdov).
Investigations carried out in the KGB archives by Lev Ponomarev, chairman of the short-lived Russian Supreme Soviet Commission to Investigate the Causes and Circumstances of the Putsch, and Father Gleb Yakunin, who served as a member of that commission, make it clear that the chain of command for controlling the church ran directly from the Politburo through the CPSU Central Committee Department of Agitation and Propaganda, to the USSR Council of Ministers' Council on Religious Affairs, and finally to the KGB, which had a special subdivision (Fourth Department of the Fifth Administration) for religion.
There is abundant evidence of the KGB's control of the church's activities abroad and its success in ensuring that the World Council of Churches (WCC) consistently adopted positions advantageous to the Soviet leadership. Thus in 1980, a KGB report signed by the head of the Fourth Department states, “. . . the secretary general of the World Council of Churches, Philip Potter, has been in Moscow as a guest of the Moscow Patriarchate. A favorable influence was exercised on him by agents `Svyatoslav,' `Adamant,' `Mikhailov,' and `Ostrovsky.' Information of operational interest was obtained on the activities of the WCC.” In 1983, the KGB dispatched 47 agents to attend the WCC General Assembly in Vancouver. In the following year, KGB reports make it clear that the Uruguayan Emilio Castro was elected WCC general secretary with the assistance of its agents attending the session of the selection committee.
At a major Orthodox Church conference in Moscow in 1988, the “situation among the participants was checked” by clandestine means, and a “positive communiqué was adopted in which a principled appraisal was adopted by the episcopate of the Russian Orthodox Church of the activities of religious extremists [dissidents] in our country.” The KGB reported on its work at the July 1989 WCC meeting in Moscow, “As a result of measures carried out, eight public statements and three official letters were adopted which were in accordance with the political line of socialist countries . . . Thanks to our agents a positive effect was exercised on the foreigners, and additional ideological and personality data were obtained, [as well as] information on their political views and the positions they occupied in their own countries. Numerous interviews took place that were favorable to us.”
A facsimile document dated November 1987, and published by the former KGB officer Stanislav Levchenko, confirmed in striking fashion the extent of Party control over the Orthodox Church's affairs. According to this paper, the approval of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the KGB, the Council on Religious Affairs (in the person of its chairman, Konstantin Kharchev), and the CPSU Central Committee's Propaganda Department, was required for the church to send priests to serve Orthodox parishes in Brazil and Uruguay. There is evidence that KGB officers were sent to study at seminaries abroad in order to become priests and serve in the Soviet Union.
The KGB paid particular attention to relations with the Vatican. A 1989 report by Col. V. Timoshevsky, head of the KGB's Fourth Department, states, “The most important journeys were those by the agents `Antonov,' `Ostrovsky,' and `Adamant' to Italy for negotiations with the Pope on questions of future relations between the Vatican and the Russian Orthodox Church, in particular the problems of the Uniates.” The patriarchate's External Affairs Department consisted almost entirely of KGB agents. The department's main ideologist, Buevsky, a KGB officer now venerable leastwise in years, has been responsible for writing the patriarch's public statements and encomia on successive national leaders since 1946.4
A prominent priest, Father Georgi Edelshtein, has stated that one-half of the clergy were overt or covert KGB employees through the end of the Gorbachev era. He has confirmed that the hierarchy took large bribes from priests seeking transfers to rich parishes and from candidates for bishoprics. Father Edelshtein comments, “Do you know where our present-day church ends and the KGB begins? The only difference was that some wore hoods and some had shoulder boards.”5 Until very recently, the conduct of some members of the episcopate showed no trace of aggiornamento. In 1990, a group of students asked the Bishop of Chelyabinsk for help in organizing an Orthodox youth group to look after new converts. This prelate requested a list of the organizers, which he then sent to the local KGB. The KGB, however, wrote back to the bishop informing him that their duties no longer included such “internal matters,” and passed on copies of the correspondence to the city soviet for publication. Father Gleb Yakunin has stated that within the top church hierarchy, nine out of ten were KGB agents.
Significantly, none of the prominent bishops attending a conference in Moscow on 19 August 1991, condemned the putsch. Not one came to the White House to bless its defenders who faced death protecting the legal government of Russia from the overthrow attempt by military forces.8 It is a reasonable assumption that many hierarchs were recruited by the KGB at the seminary—or even initially sent to the seminary by a patron with blue epaulettes—and marked out from the beginning for a distinguished clerical career. For these men, the practice of religion meant the search for and attainment of warm places and high preferment. So far, however, documentary evidence for such recruiting is lacking. In January 1992, further access to the archives was denied to Supreme Soviet investigative commissions with the approval of the chairman of the Supreme Soviet, Ruslan Khasbulatov, after joint presentations had been made to him by the chairman of the Russian External Intelligence Service, Yevgeny Primakov, and Patriarch Aleksi.9
Particularly damaging to the credibility and moral stature of the Orthodox hierarchy is the degree to which the current patriarch is morally compromised by a career of subservience to the Politburo. According to the KGB archives, in February 1988, the KGB chairman rewarded Aleksi II with a “Certificate of Honor” for successful performance.10 In 1965, as Archbishop of Tallinn, Aleksi demanded that Archbishop Hermogen of Kaluga, who at the time was undoubtedly the most courageous of all the bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate, go into forced retirement for signing a protest against the complicity of the Synod in the Soviet government's campaign of church closures.11 The patriarch's behavior during the August coup was a classic case of temporization. After initially failing to condemn the putsch, the following day he released a carefully measured statement: “[The] situation is troubling the conscience of millions of our compatriots who are beginning to question the lawfulness of the newly formed State Emergency Committee. . .We are hoping that the USSR Supreme Soviet will give a principled assessment and take resolute measures to stabilize the situation in the country.” Aleksi was well aware that there was no prospect of the Supreme Soviet's meeting in the immediate future, nor a possibility for taking “resolute measures.” It was not until the afternoon of August 21 that the patriarch, sensing which way the wind was blowing, agreed to sign an appeal that condemned the putsch leaders' shedding of innocent blood and rejected Communist ideology.12
Despite repeated calls upon him for a public and formal expression of contrition for his servility to the Communist leadership and lies on its behalf, Aleksi has always declined to make a public declaration of repentance. For those who still hoped for change at the highest level of the hierarchy, a recent episode proved especially discouraging. There is indisputable evidence that in recent months Patriarch Aleksi lied in denying charges that, in November 1991, he had approached a U.S. undersecretary of state to put pressure on Voice of America to change its programming about the Russian Orthodox Church.13 The patriarch felt impelled to make this extraordinary démarche by his concern about the “bias against the patriarchate” displayed in programs produced by a prominent priest of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, Father Viktor Potapov.
Do we want all of that appear in this article and other articles? Biophys ( talk) 21:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
РАО "Международное экономическое сотрудничество", где Патриархия - основной учредитель, экспортировало в 1994-95 гг. 14,7 млн. тонн нефти (оборот в 1996 г. - 2 миллиарда долларов). Пока не открыты сведения по другим предприятиям, торгующим нефтью, алмазами, золотом, в котором замешана патриархия.
Алмазные звезды церкви - агенты "Адаманта", - не чураются и бриллиантового бизнеса. Так, например, АОЗТ "АРТГЕММА", контролируемая ОВЦС Московской Патриархии, получила только в 1994 году от Росдрагмета алмазов для переработки и сбыта на сумму в 6 млн. долларов.
В 1994-95 годах Московская патриархия заключила некие почти секретные договоры со всеми силовыми структурами: Минобороны, МВД РФ, погранвойсками и даже ФАПСИ (Федеральное агентство правительственной связи и информации). К чему договор с такой экзотической организацией как правительственная связь? Ведь и так патриарх имеет прямую связь с Президентом, а также "вертушки" (АТС-1 и АТС-2). Наверное, весь корпус епископата желает подключиться к телефонно-номенклатурным благам, а заодно к прослушиванию разговоров своих духовных братьев. С ФСБ договор заключать нужды нет, так как все агенты КГБ СССР, проходившие в качестве "иерархов" Патриархии, либо остались на тех же церковных должностях, либо даже продвинулись еще выше.
Среди духовенства чекисты с панагиями хотят видеть бездумных требоисправителей, "православных шаманов", поощряющих всевозможные суеверия и магизм, законсервированных на уровне сельского жителя XIX века.
5 мая 1995г. в церкви "Всех скорбящих радости", в центре Москвы, священник Олег Стеняев вместе с благочинным о. Борисом Гузняковым провели средневековое действо "изгнания духов", а затем во дворе "чин очищения огнем", известный по деятельности католической инквизиции. На костре О.Олег сжигал неправославную литературу. И это видела вся страна в "Вестях" РТР.
Наряду с этим процветают антисемитизм и черносотенство постоянного члена Священного Синода митрополита Санкт-Петербургского Иоанна, призвавшего к этническим чисткам в системе госучреждений наподобие Германии 1933 года. Biophys ( talk) 03:30, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Biophys has made an edit which I reverted. He removed the identification of Patriarch Alexei as the head of the Russian Orthodox Church. The Russian government recognizes him as the head of the ROC. Every other Autocephalous Orthodox Church recognizes him as the head of the ROC. The Pope recognizes him as the head of the ROC. And Wikipedia recognizes him as the head of the ROC... see Russian Orthodox Church. It is not a disputable point. These sorts of edits are really not constructive Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 02:51, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
What I mean is this:
As far as I know, there are other Russian Orthodox organizations (including those abroad) and individual priests who do not obey the Moscow Patriarchate. Equating them with KGB/FSB Moscow Patriarchate is an offense. Please note that wikipedia and other wikis are NOT reliable source per WP:Verifiability. so, your arument is not valid. Biophys ( talk) 04:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I have looked at your WP page. Do I understand correctly that you work as a priest in the Russian Orthodox Church led by Alexius II? Biophys ( talk) 19:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I'm a neutral third party (I'm a software developer from Canada with no particular religious affiliation) who came here via the COI Noticeboard. I've reviewed the last week and a half's edits. Not deeply and thoroughly because I'm not here to fact check or resolve a content dispute, but well enough I think to comment on the COI. I've also reviewed the COI Guidelines. Here is my conclusion, going point by point through the COI guidelines:
Analysis
Frjohnwhiteford has not cited himself (that's good). He does not likely recieve monetary benefits to edit Wikipedia, nor is it likely that he expects to derive monetary benefits. (I don't see his edits causing the Church's coffers to bulge and trickle down to him). There are no legal antagonisms involved. There are no indications of Self-Promotion or Campaigning. There is no conflict due to Autobiography or Close Relationships.
Frjohnwhiteford has not suppressed well sourced information. It looks like he attempted good faith efforts at rewriting claims in a more neutral way.
Here are some specific quotes from the COI Guidelines that I believe apply here:
(It clearly looks like Frjohnwhiteford has excellent access to references, and good knowledge of the subject.)
Frjohnwhiteford's affiliation with the same Church may create a perception of a COI, however reviewing his edits I can not find evidence that it has resulted in a detectable level of bias in his edits.
Furthermore - one method of handling the perception of a COI is to a) clearly indicate your potential COI, and b) to adhere ever more tightly to the guidelines for neutral POV wikipedia editing. I do not see any clear evidence that Frjohnwhiteford has violated those guidelines to warrant asking him to stop editing the article.
In fact, Frjohnwhiteford's edits seem more neutral than those of Biophys. And I quote - straight from the COI Guidelines: "However, using COI allegations to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is frowned upon."
Conclusion
What we have here is a content dispute, with user Biophys using a COI allegation in order to gain the upper hand.
There may be a perceived (and I stress perceived) COI due to Frojohnwhiteford's affiliation, but I see no clear evidence of bias. I recommend that he state his possible COI on his user page, and (perhaps?) on this discussion page.
However I would not suggest that he not be allowed to edit the article. I believe his edits have been positive.
Both users should review Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons, and keep in mind Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.
Advice
I'll be honest, I have no experience in trying to mediate something like this. So I'm only guessing as to good advice to give. But here goes:
Biophys and Frojohnwhiteford - When replying to one another in discussion threads - try and write as little as possible, instead stick to individual facts and discussing the neutrality of the language used to discuss and present the facts, and reference Wikipedia policies and guidelines to support your opinion. Try and discuss small individual changes one by one, instead of wide breadths of stuff all in one place.
Cheers. CraigWyllie ( talk) 02:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
In light of his ad hominem attacks, and his unilateral edits, in which he has continually reverted sourced material, I have made a report on the incident board: Repeated reverts of sourced statements, harassment, and tendentious edits by Biophys Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 11:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
As it is now we have more than a half of the article on a living person, the head of a large church, liked by millions churchgoers, devoted to a collection of badly-sourced rumors. It is a severe violation of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV, Wikipedia is not an English version of compromat.ru. We need either urgently expand the article filling it with positive and neutral; information or remove controversies or move controversies to a separate article, akin to John Kerry and John Kerry military service controversy or Ward Churchill and Ward Churchill 9/11 essay controversy and Ward Churchill misconduct issues. I would prefer the later Alex Bakharev ( talk) 04:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
But if you think that a separate "controversy" article is better, what title would you suggest for such article? Biophys ( talk) 05:24, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I have found a good bit of balancing material in the book "A Long Walk To Church", by Nathaniel Davis, and will be adding some references this evening, but in the mean time, I have made some edits which I think brings the article a bit closer to compliance with the BLP policy. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 12:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with both Alex and Biophys that this article needs to be greatly expanded. Biophys mentioned there is good material in the Russian language wiki version, so it shouldn't be a problem for you guys to translate the appropriate portions. At present I don't think the controversies section should be reduced, nor is it big enough to be split off into a separate article at present. Martintg ( talk) 22:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Could anything like that happen in the US? Biophys ( talk) 05:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
A few English sources. That is interesting [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] Biophys ( talk) 05:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
So, you are also editing [30] in Orthodox wiki. It said:
"On July 17, 2007, the Wall Street Journal published a front page article in which it identified Patriarch Alexei as a former KGB agent, with the code name "Drozdov"." [31] The article also presented documents from the Estonian archives, indicating that Agent "Drozdov" actively informed upon priests in the Soviet Union." Biophys ( talk) 02:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Martintg suggested to use article about Alexius II from Russian WP. However Russian article provides too many boring and unimportant details, some of which are unsourced. I have selected some most interesting and well referenced information that can be translated and used here. Biophys ( talk) 06:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Согласно исследованию, проведённому группой авторов и опубликованных [1] Комаровым Е. В. [2], сотрудником Московской Патриархии в 1987— 1995, 11 апреля 1950, в Светлый Вторник, студент 1-го курса Академии Алексей Ридигер венчался браком с Верой Георгиевной Алексеевой (Мянник по второму мужу), дочерью о. Георгия Алексеева, настоятеля Александро-Невского собора в Таллине.
С 1961 начинается активная международная детельность Преосвященного Алексия: в составе делегации Русской Православной Церкви участвовал в работе III Ассамблеи Всемирного Совета Церквей (ВСЦ) в Нью-Дели (1961); избирался членом Центрального комитета ВСЦ (1961—1968);
В 1990-х годах получили огласку материалы, якобы обнаруженные в архивах КГБ в Москве и Эстонии, говорящие о сотрудничестве Патриарха с этой организацией начиная с 1958, ещё в бытность белым священником [3] [4].
Во время октябрьских событий 1993 Патриарх предложил посредничество обеим противоборствующим сторонам; при его участии начались переговоры в московском Даниловом монастыре, ни к чему не приведшие.
Алексий II участвовал в процедуре инаугурации Ельцина в 1996; присутствовал на церемонии передачи президентских полномочий В.В. Путину 31 января 1999 [5].
Несмотря на иное, согласно мнению многих наблюдателей, отношение к этому вопросу светской власти, отказывался дать согласие на визит Папы Римского Иоанна Павла II в Россию, ссылаясь на неразрешённые проблемы между Церквами [6] [7] [8].
Уже в 1989 государственные органы прекратили осуществлять активный контроль за жизнью религиозных организаций. В 1990-е государство начало оказывать деятельную, в том числе юридическую и финансовую, помощь Церкви в деле восстановления храмов, развития духовного образования, пастырского окормления в государственных ведомствах, в войсках, в местах лишения свободы и т. п. Многие высокопоставленные государственные служащие получили в это время высшие церковные награды. Ряд крупных храмов был построен на средства региональных бюджетов, либо крупных компаний, что вкупе с полной финансовой непрозрачностью всех структур Патриархата вызывает вопросы у общества [9]. В своём ответном слове Патриарху 12 января 2008 в Иверском (бывшем Успенском) соборе Валдайского монастыря Президент России В. Путин в частности сказал: «Сбербанк России вложил десятки миллионов долларов в реконструкцию храма. Осталось только возродить роспись, позолотить купола. Обещаю Вам, что сделаем это в самое ближайшее время.» [10] [11]
Конфликтными ситуациями в ряде случаев сопровождается передача церковным структурам имущества, находящегося в ведении музеев [12] [13].
В 2000-е некоторые аналитики, правозащитники и представители иных конфессий начали высказывать опасения, что Церковь начала притязать на роль носителя фактически государственной идеологии [14] [15]. Подобные опасения особенно усилились в связи с дискуссией о введении предмета Основы православной культуры в программу общеобразовательных школ в качестве регионального компонента [16] [17] [18] [19]. Высказываются обвинения в политической подоплёке некоторых канонических прещений, накладываемых на священнослужителей [20] [21].
награждён Государственными и иными наградами СССР:
представитель пресс-службы Московской патриархии сообщил, что Патриарх Алексий не будет подавать в суд на СМИ, распространявшие ложные сведения о его болезни и даже смерти [25]. В связи с последним скандалом многие журналисты обвиняют Патриархию в крайней закрытости и неумении работать со СМИ [26]
«Письмо десяти академиков» — открытое письмо десяти академиков РАН (Е. Александров, Ж. Алферов, Г. Абелев, Л. Барков, А. Воробьев, В. Гинзбург, С. Инге-Вечтомов, Э. Кругляков, М. Садовский, А. Черепащук) «Политика РПЦ МП: консолидация или развал страны?», направленное президенту РФ В. В. Путину 23 июля 2007 года. В письме выражена обеспокоенность «все возрастающей клерикализацией российского общества, активным проникновением церкви во все сферы общественной жизни». [27]
Ряд видных правозащитников и представителей общественности выступил в поддержку письма [28]
15 августа было опубликовано заявление мусульманской общественности России [29], которое солидаризируется с письмом академиков по вопросу о необходимости противодействия клерикализму.
21 мая 2007 митрополит Лавр, находясь в Курске, сказал: «Препятствовала старая эмиграция, к которой я не отношусь. У её представителей очень распространено настроение недоверия к советской власти, и тому, что с ней было связано. Трудно было переубедить их в психологическом плане» [30].
Епископ Анадырский Диомид на вопрос о том, что он думает в свете того, что многие пункты его Обращения совпадают с позицией РПЦЗ, сказал, что «если бы Зарубежная Церковь твёрже настояла бы на том, чтобы были удовлетворены все эти пункты, и только после этого объединилась с РПЦ МП, то было бы лучше. Но будем надеяться, что присоединение Зарубежной Церкви к Московскому патриархату послужит его оздоровлению» [31]
Ряд клириков и мирян РПЦЗ (РЗЦ) негативно относятся к единению, которое считают поглощением РПЦЗ Патриархатом. Ещё до подписания Акта, в среде духовенства и мирян РПЦЗ начались оживлённые дискуссии о правомерности или целесообразности подобного шага [32] [33] [34] [35]; в адрес митрополита Лавра были выдвинуты обвинения в связях с российским государством и спецслужбами [36] [37].
С идейной точки зрения, оппозицию в РПЦЗ вызывает отказ РПЦ выйти из Всемирного совета церквей и других экуменических организаций, поскольку в прошлом РПЦЗ осудила экуменизм как ересь [38]. Кроме того, для многих неприемлемо молитвенное вознесение имени Патриарха Алексия II, о связях которого с КГБ существуют свидетельства [32] [33] [34]. Клирики РПЦЗ обеспокоены тем фактом, что назначения в РПЦЗ, в особенности первоиерарха и епископов, должны будут утверждаться в Москве.
Американская консервативная газета WSJ 25 мая 2007 писала: «Речь идет не только о богословских и нравственных сторонах дела – есть подозрения, что Путин формирует новые разветвленные каналы влияния, используя церковь для укрепления связей с общинами русских эмигрантов по всему миру» [35]
С наиболее ясно артикулированной позицией неприятия выступил Епископ Таврический и Одесский Агафангел из РПЗЦ [36] [37], фигура которого стала центром притяжения для многих, не желающих принять Акт [38].
18 мая 2007 было опубликовано Постановление Собрания Вдовствующей Восточно-Американской Епархии Вдовствующей Русской Зарубежной Церкви [39].
Высказывается мнение, что одним из последствий Акта будет «усугубление царящего здесь [в Северной Америке] канонического беспорядка» [40] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Biophys ( talk • contribs) 06:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
"Friedrich Engels would have had difficulty editing the Karl Marx article, because he was a close friend, follower and collaborator of Marx.[2] Any situation where strong relationships can develop may trigger a conflict of interest. Conflict of interest can be personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal. It is not determined by area, but is created by relationships that involve a high level of personal commitment to, involvement with, or dependence upon, a person, subject, idea, tradition, or organization." (my bolding)
Biophys' latest edits continue to violate the WP:BLP policy. Instead of balancing the article, as we were told by an administrator, he is furthering the expansion of criticisms... particularly the whole KGB link line of attack.
On the question of Patriarch Alexei's marriage. It is certainly true that he was married. It is also true that he was divorced in less than a year. Anyone who has ever been married can probably imagine why... the first year is usually fairly tough for any couple, and apparently it was too tough for at least one of them. It is also true that the typikon of the Orthodox Church does not normally allow a marriage to take place during bright week... but it also true that the typikon says they should not occur on the eve of any fast day (which excludes about 1/2 the year), or on the eve of any great feast, or on the eve of any Sunday. However, there are often reasons why weddings due take place during such times. And generally speaking, doing one during bright week would be seen as far less objectionable than doing it during the previous 40 days of Great Lent or Holy Week. We do not know why it would have been allowed in this case. During the Soviet period, the niceties of the typikon often could not be observed due to any number of factors. You even had priests conducting secret funerals over a clump of earth taken from the grave of a loved one, because such a funeral could not be done publicly. It is not true that Patriarch Alexei needed to get married to be ordained a Deacon. Unmarried Deacons are ordained all of the time... it's just that once you are ordained a Deacon, you cannot marry. Now if the marriage was a sham marriage of convenience, it was completely unnecessary, because the only reason to have done it would have been if it was Patriarch Alexei's intention to remain married (and a clergyman cannot divorce and remarry either)... and obviously this did not happen. He become a monk, and has remained one ever since.
Also, just a note to Biophys, while it is generally nice to not edit an article at the same moment someone else is, there is no rule that says that you get to do what you want to this article, because now it is your turn. If you want to make such a radical re-write of the article, it would be a good idea for you to take it to the talk page. When you engage in edits that an administrator has already stated are violations of the WP:BLP policy, there is no reason at all that you should expect that it would be the burden of others to go to the talk page first. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 11:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
How about a section on this to fill out the article with more general less controversial things? As patriarch he decides the direction the church takes... He has had to deal with ties with the Vatican and building bridges between Orthodoxy and Catholicism... What about these things and others? Malick78 ( talk) 16:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
See the notice, by clicking here. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 21:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Will this approach work for everyone involved? If so please place your ~~~~ below under "Yea this will work, let's fix it!". If it does not work for you, and you have a solution that is supported by policy please suggest it under "How about this instead?". Jeepday ( talk) 02:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Yea, this will work, let's fix it! Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 02:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
How about this instead?
The last series of edits by Frjohnwhiteford represents a clear WP:NPOV violation. He deleted all sourced information he did not like. This should be corrected. Biophys ( talk) 03:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I deleted biased commentary, NPOV spin on meager facts, original research, and double and triple references to the same documents. Biophys has reverted my attempts to correct the problems identified by the Admin. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 03:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Biophys' new divisions, and changing of the titles do not make sense. You have three "criticism", and only one response, which is to the first criticism, but which comes after the third criticism. You also continue to have overkill double and triple references to the same sources. You have POV commentary and original research regarding the nuns that clean the Patriarch's residence, and the appropriateness of the date of his marriage, and his alleged reasons for getting married. I have previous addressed the issue of his marriage, and as things are we have tabloid commentary...using actual tabloids from sources known to be hostile to the Russian Orthodox Church. We also have a further reading section, which is entirely redundant, given the footnotes, and highly selective. It also references sources that are themselves controversial. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 03:54, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
There are two goals here, the first and foremost is to build a good NPOV article, the second is to get all parties to work together towards the first goal. You both have good points, and you both have different perspectives. You also both have a good grasp of the subject.
Each of you tell me the one section header that you feel is most important in this article, you don't need to explain it just name it. Jeepday ( talk) 04:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I hear what you are saying Frjohnwhiteford, one step at a time. I would ask each of you to write one section, Frjohnwhiteford write "Criticism"; Biophys write "Relations between Orthodox Church and Russian State under Alexii II", keep it about 500 words or less. use good references, and don't worry about the what the other is doing. Take a couple days, do it well and when it's ready leave me a note and I will come look. Like we said before the section should only contain topics related to the section header. If you start feeling frustrated read Wikipedia:The Most Important Thing Possible or Wikipedia:There is no deadline. I believe you are both working in good faith to do what you think is best, you are both trying to work towards the same goal you just have different visions of the goal. If you finish your section before the other, just wait until you are both done before starting something new. Will this work to start? Jeepday ( talk) 05:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Sounds like you are both content to work on drafts, that is probably the best approach. If you don't know how to make a sub page let me know, unless you would prefer to work on your user page or off line. Jeepday ( talk) 22:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC) Jeepday asked me whether or not I supported his approach. I certainly do. DGG ( talk) 18:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
A big part of the argument here is editors removing other editors work. I am seeing what looks like reliably sourced material being removed. While we are striving for balance, please let the contributing editors shorten their own work. If you feel strongly that a single reference is not sufficient for some content then it is appropriate per WP:BLP to remove it from the main article. But when doing so please bring it to the talk page (with the references supplied) indicate your specific concerns and give the contributing editors a chance to supply additional references or adjust the text as needed. Thanks :) Jeepday ( talk) 16:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
It has been suggested that the content on nuns below represents WP:OR, it does not appear that there is previously published reference supporting the claim that there are nuns working in the household in violation of the canon. Please provide references supporting the assertion of wrongness, and seek approval for reliability of the sources here before reposting. Thanks Jeepday ( talk) 16:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC) the nuns are in charge of all the household chores and duties. The presence of unrelated women in an Orthodox bishop's house is canonically forbidden by the First Ecumenical Council (Canon 3 [40]) and Sixth Ecumenical Council (Canon 5 [41]).
There is also nothing in the sources to warrant the inclusion of the commentary "originally it was meant as Patriarch Alexius I's dacha". Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 17:41, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
There are three choices for my participation in this article, which would the editors of this article prefer? Jeepday ( talk) 14:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
There certainly remains a dispute about the neutrality of this article. There is no justification for removing it until the dispute is resolved. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 15:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
While I do not comment on Patriarch's alleged work for KGB -- I want to make a point that Sergian loyalty to the Soviet state which was oficially discussed by the Patriarch does not equal to the alleged KGB work.
Indeed, that's true that Patriarch Alexius acknowledged that compromises were made with the Soviet government by bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate, himself included, and publicly repented of these compromises:
But it's important to note it wasn't Patriarch's reply on his alleged KGB work, but rather than that, justification on his own loyalty to the state and Sergian principles in Soviet time. Suggesting that it concerned KGB work is original research. ellol ( talk) 01:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
It's not original research when you state the proper context of a quote, and then quote it, and that quote is from a reliable source. It is only original research when you try to string several facts together from various sources, to reach a conclusion that is not found in either. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 12:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
What about reports of KGB infiltration of the Orthodox Church during the Soviet period? As a high ranking cleric, the Patriarch would have been involved.
--Raskolnikov
It was a common practice for the KGB to give code names to people they kept files on. Patriarch Alexius being a high ranking church official was obviously under KGB surveillance. It does not make him a KGB agent. It is also quite ridiculous to use obviously biased Gleb Yakunin ( a controversial priest expelled from the Orthodox church) and Yevgenia Albats (liberal Russian-Jewish journalist) as “independent confirmation”.
Fisenko
21:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
There should be information added about his reluctance to having dialogue with the Catholic Church, and his refusal to allow a visit by Pope John Paul II.
Being critical of the subject of the article? Let's anyway try not to disinform people, even if someone happens to be an GLM activist. The Wikipedia is not the right place to disinform on ANYONE. -- just someone
Since when diatribes of a priest who was excommunicated from the Russian Orthodox Church are regarded as reliable sources for Wikipedia? And Albats is the most severely partisan journalist in Russia; her allegations are anything but partial and/or reliable. Currently the article reads like a deliberate slur and contradicts our policies on WP:BLP. -- Ghirla -трёп- 16:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The reference provided makes the clear point that prior to the 1980's the KGB normally referred to everyone with one code name or another... even those whom they were persecuting. That is simply a fact, and examples of people whom the KGB was after being referred to by a code name can easily be provided. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 21:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Biophys raised an objection to my referencing in a footnote the material on this page as being from a "personal blog": http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/patalexei.htm
As can easily be seen it is not a blog, and I did not write what it one it. It contains a post to a yahoo group by a ROCOR priest who was on the joint commission for reconciliation between the MP and ROCOR -- Fr. Alexander Lebedeff. He has simply provided a translation into English of an interview in Isvestia. Now, I could have made the same edit, and simply referenced Isvestia, but I think most readers who do not have backlog copies of Isvestia around the house, and do not speak or read Russian would like to to read a translation of what is actually referred to. The information is from a reliable source, and is a translation of a reliable source. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 01:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Pat A.: "Being a person of the Church, I must take on myself responsibility for all that occurred in the life of my Church: not only for the good, but also for the difficult, the sorrowful, the erroneous."
Pat. A.: "Today we can say that falsehood is interspersed in his Declaration, which stated as its goal 'placing the Church into proper relations with the Soviet government.' But these relations--and in the Declaration they are clearly defined as the submission of the Church to the interests of governmental politics--are exactly those which are incorrect from the point of view of the Church."
Pat. A.: "Of people, then, to whom these compromises, silence, forced passivity or expressions of loyalty that were permitted by the Church leadership in those days, have caused pain -- of these people, not only before God, but also before them, I ask forgiveness, understanding, and prayers."
Unfortunately, this is not too informative. It is not clear at all what he means. Of course "Izvestija" can be cited, but you should check yourself that citation is correct. Biophys ( talk) 02:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Yahoo group is not a reliable source, Izvestia is. Please provide the reference to Izvestia, and add something like English translation is available at [yahooaddress] Alex Bakharev ( talk) 04:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
A reliable source that supports the following assertion of fact is needed, or else the assertion needs to be deleted:
Which archive documents are we talking about here, and where did you get this information.? Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 04:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Do not you know that collaboration of Russian Orthodox Church and Alexius with the KGB is very well established in numerous reliable sources? Look, for example this article by Keith Armes who is is associate director of the Institute for the Study of Conflict, Ideology and Policy of Boston University:
The opening of some KGB archives since August 1991 has made available for the first time clear evidence of the subordination of the Orthodox hierarchy to the Soviet government. An investigative journalist, Alexander Nezhny, was able to establish the close relationship between a number of bishops and the “organs,” and to determine the identities of the bishops involved on the basis of the chronology of missions abroad undertaken by hierarchs at the behest of the KGB and references to the agent names by which they were known. In particular, the KGB affiliation of three prominent hierarchs is now established: the recently deposed Metropolitan Philaret of Kiev (code name “Antonov”), Metropolitan Yuvenali of Krutisk and Kolomna, who was head of the foreign relations department of the patriarchate (code name “Adamant”), and Metropolitan Pitirim of Volokolamsk and Yurev, head of the publishing department of the patriarchate (code name “Abbat”). It is also established that the present patriarch, Aleksi II, served the KGB under the poetic name “Blackbird” (Drozdov).
Investigations carried out in the KGB archives by Lev Ponomarev, chairman of the short-lived Russian Supreme Soviet Commission to Investigate the Causes and Circumstances of the Putsch, and Father Gleb Yakunin, who served as a member of that commission, make it clear that the chain of command for controlling the church ran directly from the Politburo through the CPSU Central Committee Department of Agitation and Propaganda, to the USSR Council of Ministers' Council on Religious Affairs, and finally to the KGB, which had a special subdivision (Fourth Department of the Fifth Administration) for religion.
There is abundant evidence of the KGB's control of the church's activities abroad and its success in ensuring that the World Council of Churches (WCC) consistently adopted positions advantageous to the Soviet leadership. Thus in 1980, a KGB report signed by the head of the Fourth Department states, “. . . the secretary general of the World Council of Churches, Philip Potter, has been in Moscow as a guest of the Moscow Patriarchate. A favorable influence was exercised on him by agents `Svyatoslav,' `Adamant,' `Mikhailov,' and `Ostrovsky.' Information of operational interest was obtained on the activities of the WCC.” In 1983, the KGB dispatched 47 agents to attend the WCC General Assembly in Vancouver. In the following year, KGB reports make it clear that the Uruguayan Emilio Castro was elected WCC general secretary with the assistance of its agents attending the session of the selection committee.
At a major Orthodox Church conference in Moscow in 1988, the “situation among the participants was checked” by clandestine means, and a “positive communiqué was adopted in which a principled appraisal was adopted by the episcopate of the Russian Orthodox Church of the activities of religious extremists [dissidents] in our country.” The KGB reported on its work at the July 1989 WCC meeting in Moscow, “As a result of measures carried out, eight public statements and three official letters were adopted which were in accordance with the political line of socialist countries . . . Thanks to our agents a positive effect was exercised on the foreigners, and additional ideological and personality data were obtained, [as well as] information on their political views and the positions they occupied in their own countries. Numerous interviews took place that were favorable to us.”
A facsimile document dated November 1987, and published by the former KGB officer Stanislav Levchenko, confirmed in striking fashion the extent of Party control over the Orthodox Church's affairs. According to this paper, the approval of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the KGB, the Council on Religious Affairs (in the person of its chairman, Konstantin Kharchev), and the CPSU Central Committee's Propaganda Department, was required for the church to send priests to serve Orthodox parishes in Brazil and Uruguay. There is evidence that KGB officers were sent to study at seminaries abroad in order to become priests and serve in the Soviet Union.
The KGB paid particular attention to relations with the Vatican. A 1989 report by Col. V. Timoshevsky, head of the KGB's Fourth Department, states, “The most important journeys were those by the agents `Antonov,' `Ostrovsky,' and `Adamant' to Italy for negotiations with the Pope on questions of future relations between the Vatican and the Russian Orthodox Church, in particular the problems of the Uniates.” The patriarchate's External Affairs Department consisted almost entirely of KGB agents. The department's main ideologist, Buevsky, a KGB officer now venerable leastwise in years, has been responsible for writing the patriarch's public statements and encomia on successive national leaders since 1946.4
A prominent priest, Father Georgi Edelshtein, has stated that one-half of the clergy were overt or covert KGB employees through the end of the Gorbachev era. He has confirmed that the hierarchy took large bribes from priests seeking transfers to rich parishes and from candidates for bishoprics. Father Edelshtein comments, “Do you know where our present-day church ends and the KGB begins? The only difference was that some wore hoods and some had shoulder boards.”5 Until very recently, the conduct of some members of the episcopate showed no trace of aggiornamento. In 1990, a group of students asked the Bishop of Chelyabinsk for help in organizing an Orthodox youth group to look after new converts. This prelate requested a list of the organizers, which he then sent to the local KGB. The KGB, however, wrote back to the bishop informing him that their duties no longer included such “internal matters,” and passed on copies of the correspondence to the city soviet for publication. Father Gleb Yakunin has stated that within the top church hierarchy, nine out of ten were KGB agents.
Significantly, none of the prominent bishops attending a conference in Moscow on 19 August 1991, condemned the putsch. Not one came to the White House to bless its defenders who faced death protecting the legal government of Russia from the overthrow attempt by military forces.8 It is a reasonable assumption that many hierarchs were recruited by the KGB at the seminary—or even initially sent to the seminary by a patron with blue epaulettes—and marked out from the beginning for a distinguished clerical career. For these men, the practice of religion meant the search for and attainment of warm places and high preferment. So far, however, documentary evidence for such recruiting is lacking. In January 1992, further access to the archives was denied to Supreme Soviet investigative commissions with the approval of the chairman of the Supreme Soviet, Ruslan Khasbulatov, after joint presentations had been made to him by the chairman of the Russian External Intelligence Service, Yevgeny Primakov, and Patriarch Aleksi.9
Particularly damaging to the credibility and moral stature of the Orthodox hierarchy is the degree to which the current patriarch is morally compromised by a career of subservience to the Politburo. According to the KGB archives, in February 1988, the KGB chairman rewarded Aleksi II with a “Certificate of Honor” for successful performance.10 In 1965, as Archbishop of Tallinn, Aleksi demanded that Archbishop Hermogen of Kaluga, who at the time was undoubtedly the most courageous of all the bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate, go into forced retirement for signing a protest against the complicity of the Synod in the Soviet government's campaign of church closures.11 The patriarch's behavior during the August coup was a classic case of temporization. After initially failing to condemn the putsch, the following day he released a carefully measured statement: “[The] situation is troubling the conscience of millions of our compatriots who are beginning to question the lawfulness of the newly formed State Emergency Committee. . .We are hoping that the USSR Supreme Soviet will give a principled assessment and take resolute measures to stabilize the situation in the country.” Aleksi was well aware that there was no prospect of the Supreme Soviet's meeting in the immediate future, nor a possibility for taking “resolute measures.” It was not until the afternoon of August 21 that the patriarch, sensing which way the wind was blowing, agreed to sign an appeal that condemned the putsch leaders' shedding of innocent blood and rejected Communist ideology.12
Despite repeated calls upon him for a public and formal expression of contrition for his servility to the Communist leadership and lies on its behalf, Aleksi has always declined to make a public declaration of repentance. For those who still hoped for change at the highest level of the hierarchy, a recent episode proved especially discouraging. There is indisputable evidence that in recent months Patriarch Aleksi lied in denying charges that, in November 1991, he had approached a U.S. undersecretary of state to put pressure on Voice of America to change its programming about the Russian Orthodox Church.13 The patriarch felt impelled to make this extraordinary démarche by his concern about the “bias against the patriarchate” displayed in programs produced by a prominent priest of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, Father Viktor Potapov.
Do we want all of that appear in this article and other articles? Biophys ( talk) 21:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
РАО "Международное экономическое сотрудничество", где Патриархия - основной учредитель, экспортировало в 1994-95 гг. 14,7 млн. тонн нефти (оборот в 1996 г. - 2 миллиарда долларов). Пока не открыты сведения по другим предприятиям, торгующим нефтью, алмазами, золотом, в котором замешана патриархия.
Алмазные звезды церкви - агенты "Адаманта", - не чураются и бриллиантового бизнеса. Так, например, АОЗТ "АРТГЕММА", контролируемая ОВЦС Московской Патриархии, получила только в 1994 году от Росдрагмета алмазов для переработки и сбыта на сумму в 6 млн. долларов.
В 1994-95 годах Московская патриархия заключила некие почти секретные договоры со всеми силовыми структурами: Минобороны, МВД РФ, погранвойсками и даже ФАПСИ (Федеральное агентство правительственной связи и информации). К чему договор с такой экзотической организацией как правительственная связь? Ведь и так патриарх имеет прямую связь с Президентом, а также "вертушки" (АТС-1 и АТС-2). Наверное, весь корпус епископата желает подключиться к телефонно-номенклатурным благам, а заодно к прослушиванию разговоров своих духовных братьев. С ФСБ договор заключать нужды нет, так как все агенты КГБ СССР, проходившие в качестве "иерархов" Патриархии, либо остались на тех же церковных должностях, либо даже продвинулись еще выше.
Среди духовенства чекисты с панагиями хотят видеть бездумных требоисправителей, "православных шаманов", поощряющих всевозможные суеверия и магизм, законсервированных на уровне сельского жителя XIX века.
5 мая 1995г. в церкви "Всех скорбящих радости", в центре Москвы, священник Олег Стеняев вместе с благочинным о. Борисом Гузняковым провели средневековое действо "изгнания духов", а затем во дворе "чин очищения огнем", известный по деятельности католической инквизиции. На костре О.Олег сжигал неправославную литературу. И это видела вся страна в "Вестях" РТР.
Наряду с этим процветают антисемитизм и черносотенство постоянного члена Священного Синода митрополита Санкт-Петербургского Иоанна, призвавшего к этническим чисткам в системе госучреждений наподобие Германии 1933 года. Biophys ( talk) 03:30, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Biophys has made an edit which I reverted. He removed the identification of Patriarch Alexei as the head of the Russian Orthodox Church. The Russian government recognizes him as the head of the ROC. Every other Autocephalous Orthodox Church recognizes him as the head of the ROC. The Pope recognizes him as the head of the ROC. And Wikipedia recognizes him as the head of the ROC... see Russian Orthodox Church. It is not a disputable point. These sorts of edits are really not constructive Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 02:51, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
What I mean is this:
As far as I know, there are other Russian Orthodox organizations (including those abroad) and individual priests who do not obey the Moscow Patriarchate. Equating them with KGB/FSB Moscow Patriarchate is an offense. Please note that wikipedia and other wikis are NOT reliable source per WP:Verifiability. so, your arument is not valid. Biophys ( talk) 04:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I have looked at your WP page. Do I understand correctly that you work as a priest in the Russian Orthodox Church led by Alexius II? Biophys ( talk) 19:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I'm a neutral third party (I'm a software developer from Canada with no particular religious affiliation) who came here via the COI Noticeboard. I've reviewed the last week and a half's edits. Not deeply and thoroughly because I'm not here to fact check or resolve a content dispute, but well enough I think to comment on the COI. I've also reviewed the COI Guidelines. Here is my conclusion, going point by point through the COI guidelines:
Analysis
Frjohnwhiteford has not cited himself (that's good). He does not likely recieve monetary benefits to edit Wikipedia, nor is it likely that he expects to derive monetary benefits. (I don't see his edits causing the Church's coffers to bulge and trickle down to him). There are no legal antagonisms involved. There are no indications of Self-Promotion or Campaigning. There is no conflict due to Autobiography or Close Relationships.
Frjohnwhiteford has not suppressed well sourced information. It looks like he attempted good faith efforts at rewriting claims in a more neutral way.
Here are some specific quotes from the COI Guidelines that I believe apply here:
(It clearly looks like Frjohnwhiteford has excellent access to references, and good knowledge of the subject.)
Frjohnwhiteford's affiliation with the same Church may create a perception of a COI, however reviewing his edits I can not find evidence that it has resulted in a detectable level of bias in his edits.
Furthermore - one method of handling the perception of a COI is to a) clearly indicate your potential COI, and b) to adhere ever more tightly to the guidelines for neutral POV wikipedia editing. I do not see any clear evidence that Frjohnwhiteford has violated those guidelines to warrant asking him to stop editing the article.
In fact, Frjohnwhiteford's edits seem more neutral than those of Biophys. And I quote - straight from the COI Guidelines: "However, using COI allegations to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is frowned upon."
Conclusion
What we have here is a content dispute, with user Biophys using a COI allegation in order to gain the upper hand.
There may be a perceived (and I stress perceived) COI due to Frojohnwhiteford's affiliation, but I see no clear evidence of bias. I recommend that he state his possible COI on his user page, and (perhaps?) on this discussion page.
However I would not suggest that he not be allowed to edit the article. I believe his edits have been positive.
Both users should review Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons, and keep in mind Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.
Advice
I'll be honest, I have no experience in trying to mediate something like this. So I'm only guessing as to good advice to give. But here goes:
Biophys and Frojohnwhiteford - When replying to one another in discussion threads - try and write as little as possible, instead stick to individual facts and discussing the neutrality of the language used to discuss and present the facts, and reference Wikipedia policies and guidelines to support your opinion. Try and discuss small individual changes one by one, instead of wide breadths of stuff all in one place.
Cheers. CraigWyllie ( talk) 02:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
In light of his ad hominem attacks, and his unilateral edits, in which he has continually reverted sourced material, I have made a report on the incident board: Repeated reverts of sourced statements, harassment, and tendentious edits by Biophys Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 11:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
As it is now we have more than a half of the article on a living person, the head of a large church, liked by millions churchgoers, devoted to a collection of badly-sourced rumors. It is a severe violation of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV, Wikipedia is not an English version of compromat.ru. We need either urgently expand the article filling it with positive and neutral; information or remove controversies or move controversies to a separate article, akin to John Kerry and John Kerry military service controversy or Ward Churchill and Ward Churchill 9/11 essay controversy and Ward Churchill misconduct issues. I would prefer the later Alex Bakharev ( talk) 04:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
But if you think that a separate "controversy" article is better, what title would you suggest for such article? Biophys ( talk) 05:24, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I have found a good bit of balancing material in the book "A Long Walk To Church", by Nathaniel Davis, and will be adding some references this evening, but in the mean time, I have made some edits which I think brings the article a bit closer to compliance with the BLP policy. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 12:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with both Alex and Biophys that this article needs to be greatly expanded. Biophys mentioned there is good material in the Russian language wiki version, so it shouldn't be a problem for you guys to translate the appropriate portions. At present I don't think the controversies section should be reduced, nor is it big enough to be split off into a separate article at present. Martintg ( talk) 22:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Could anything like that happen in the US? Biophys ( talk) 05:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
A few English sources. That is interesting [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] Biophys ( talk) 05:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
So, you are also editing [30] in Orthodox wiki. It said:
"On July 17, 2007, the Wall Street Journal published a front page article in which it identified Patriarch Alexei as a former KGB agent, with the code name "Drozdov"." [31] The article also presented documents from the Estonian archives, indicating that Agent "Drozdov" actively informed upon priests in the Soviet Union." Biophys ( talk) 02:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Martintg suggested to use article about Alexius II from Russian WP. However Russian article provides too many boring and unimportant details, some of which are unsourced. I have selected some most interesting and well referenced information that can be translated and used here. Biophys ( talk) 06:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Согласно исследованию, проведённому группой авторов и опубликованных [1] Комаровым Е. В. [2], сотрудником Московской Патриархии в 1987— 1995, 11 апреля 1950, в Светлый Вторник, студент 1-го курса Академии Алексей Ридигер венчался браком с Верой Георгиевной Алексеевой (Мянник по второму мужу), дочерью о. Георгия Алексеева, настоятеля Александро-Невского собора в Таллине.
С 1961 начинается активная международная детельность Преосвященного Алексия: в составе делегации Русской Православной Церкви участвовал в работе III Ассамблеи Всемирного Совета Церквей (ВСЦ) в Нью-Дели (1961); избирался членом Центрального комитета ВСЦ (1961—1968);
В 1990-х годах получили огласку материалы, якобы обнаруженные в архивах КГБ в Москве и Эстонии, говорящие о сотрудничестве Патриарха с этой организацией начиная с 1958, ещё в бытность белым священником [3] [4].
Во время октябрьских событий 1993 Патриарх предложил посредничество обеим противоборствующим сторонам; при его участии начались переговоры в московском Даниловом монастыре, ни к чему не приведшие.
Алексий II участвовал в процедуре инаугурации Ельцина в 1996; присутствовал на церемонии передачи президентских полномочий В.В. Путину 31 января 1999 [5].
Несмотря на иное, согласно мнению многих наблюдателей, отношение к этому вопросу светской власти, отказывался дать согласие на визит Папы Римского Иоанна Павла II в Россию, ссылаясь на неразрешённые проблемы между Церквами [6] [7] [8].
Уже в 1989 государственные органы прекратили осуществлять активный контроль за жизнью религиозных организаций. В 1990-е государство начало оказывать деятельную, в том числе юридическую и финансовую, помощь Церкви в деле восстановления храмов, развития духовного образования, пастырского окормления в государственных ведомствах, в войсках, в местах лишения свободы и т. п. Многие высокопоставленные государственные служащие получили в это время высшие церковные награды. Ряд крупных храмов был построен на средства региональных бюджетов, либо крупных компаний, что вкупе с полной финансовой непрозрачностью всех структур Патриархата вызывает вопросы у общества [9]. В своём ответном слове Патриарху 12 января 2008 в Иверском (бывшем Успенском) соборе Валдайского монастыря Президент России В. Путин в частности сказал: «Сбербанк России вложил десятки миллионов долларов в реконструкцию храма. Осталось только возродить роспись, позолотить купола. Обещаю Вам, что сделаем это в самое ближайшее время.» [10] [11]
Конфликтными ситуациями в ряде случаев сопровождается передача церковным структурам имущества, находящегося в ведении музеев [12] [13].
В 2000-е некоторые аналитики, правозащитники и представители иных конфессий начали высказывать опасения, что Церковь начала притязать на роль носителя фактически государственной идеологии [14] [15]. Подобные опасения особенно усилились в связи с дискуссией о введении предмета Основы православной культуры в программу общеобразовательных школ в качестве регионального компонента [16] [17] [18] [19]. Высказываются обвинения в политической подоплёке некоторых канонических прещений, накладываемых на священнослужителей [20] [21].
награждён Государственными и иными наградами СССР:
представитель пресс-службы Московской патриархии сообщил, что Патриарх Алексий не будет подавать в суд на СМИ, распространявшие ложные сведения о его болезни и даже смерти [25]. В связи с последним скандалом многие журналисты обвиняют Патриархию в крайней закрытости и неумении работать со СМИ [26]
«Письмо десяти академиков» — открытое письмо десяти академиков РАН (Е. Александров, Ж. Алферов, Г. Абелев, Л. Барков, А. Воробьев, В. Гинзбург, С. Инге-Вечтомов, Э. Кругляков, М. Садовский, А. Черепащук) «Политика РПЦ МП: консолидация или развал страны?», направленное президенту РФ В. В. Путину 23 июля 2007 года. В письме выражена обеспокоенность «все возрастающей клерикализацией российского общества, активным проникновением церкви во все сферы общественной жизни». [27]
Ряд видных правозащитников и представителей общественности выступил в поддержку письма [28]
15 августа было опубликовано заявление мусульманской общественности России [29], которое солидаризируется с письмом академиков по вопросу о необходимости противодействия клерикализму.
21 мая 2007 митрополит Лавр, находясь в Курске, сказал: «Препятствовала старая эмиграция, к которой я не отношусь. У её представителей очень распространено настроение недоверия к советской власти, и тому, что с ней было связано. Трудно было переубедить их в психологическом плане» [30].
Епископ Анадырский Диомид на вопрос о том, что он думает в свете того, что многие пункты его Обращения совпадают с позицией РПЦЗ, сказал, что «если бы Зарубежная Церковь твёрже настояла бы на том, чтобы были удовлетворены все эти пункты, и только после этого объединилась с РПЦ МП, то было бы лучше. Но будем надеяться, что присоединение Зарубежной Церкви к Московскому патриархату послужит его оздоровлению» [31]
Ряд клириков и мирян РПЦЗ (РЗЦ) негативно относятся к единению, которое считают поглощением РПЦЗ Патриархатом. Ещё до подписания Акта, в среде духовенства и мирян РПЦЗ начались оживлённые дискуссии о правомерности или целесообразности подобного шага [32] [33] [34] [35]; в адрес митрополита Лавра были выдвинуты обвинения в связях с российским государством и спецслужбами [36] [37].
С идейной точки зрения, оппозицию в РПЦЗ вызывает отказ РПЦ выйти из Всемирного совета церквей и других экуменических организаций, поскольку в прошлом РПЦЗ осудила экуменизм как ересь [38]. Кроме того, для многих неприемлемо молитвенное вознесение имени Патриарха Алексия II, о связях которого с КГБ существуют свидетельства [32] [33] [34]. Клирики РПЦЗ обеспокоены тем фактом, что назначения в РПЦЗ, в особенности первоиерарха и епископов, должны будут утверждаться в Москве.
Американская консервативная газета WSJ 25 мая 2007 писала: «Речь идет не только о богословских и нравственных сторонах дела – есть подозрения, что Путин формирует новые разветвленные каналы влияния, используя церковь для укрепления связей с общинами русских эмигрантов по всему миру» [35]
С наиболее ясно артикулированной позицией неприятия выступил Епископ Таврический и Одесский Агафангел из РПЗЦ [36] [37], фигура которого стала центром притяжения для многих, не желающих принять Акт [38].
18 мая 2007 было опубликовано Постановление Собрания Вдовствующей Восточно-Американской Епархии Вдовствующей Русской Зарубежной Церкви [39].
Высказывается мнение, что одним из последствий Акта будет «усугубление царящего здесь [в Северной Америке] канонического беспорядка» [40] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Biophys ( talk • contribs) 06:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
"Friedrich Engels would have had difficulty editing the Karl Marx article, because he was a close friend, follower and collaborator of Marx.[2] Any situation where strong relationships can develop may trigger a conflict of interest. Conflict of interest can be personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal. It is not determined by area, but is created by relationships that involve a high level of personal commitment to, involvement with, or dependence upon, a person, subject, idea, tradition, or organization." (my bolding)
Biophys' latest edits continue to violate the WP:BLP policy. Instead of balancing the article, as we were told by an administrator, he is furthering the expansion of criticisms... particularly the whole KGB link line of attack.
On the question of Patriarch Alexei's marriage. It is certainly true that he was married. It is also true that he was divorced in less than a year. Anyone who has ever been married can probably imagine why... the first year is usually fairly tough for any couple, and apparently it was too tough for at least one of them. It is also true that the typikon of the Orthodox Church does not normally allow a marriage to take place during bright week... but it also true that the typikon says they should not occur on the eve of any fast day (which excludes about 1/2 the year), or on the eve of any great feast, or on the eve of any Sunday. However, there are often reasons why weddings due take place during such times. And generally speaking, doing one during bright week would be seen as far less objectionable than doing it during the previous 40 days of Great Lent or Holy Week. We do not know why it would have been allowed in this case. During the Soviet period, the niceties of the typikon often could not be observed due to any number of factors. You even had priests conducting secret funerals over a clump of earth taken from the grave of a loved one, because such a funeral could not be done publicly. It is not true that Patriarch Alexei needed to get married to be ordained a Deacon. Unmarried Deacons are ordained all of the time... it's just that once you are ordained a Deacon, you cannot marry. Now if the marriage was a sham marriage of convenience, it was completely unnecessary, because the only reason to have done it would have been if it was Patriarch Alexei's intention to remain married (and a clergyman cannot divorce and remarry either)... and obviously this did not happen. He become a monk, and has remained one ever since.
Also, just a note to Biophys, while it is generally nice to not edit an article at the same moment someone else is, there is no rule that says that you get to do what you want to this article, because now it is your turn. If you want to make such a radical re-write of the article, it would be a good idea for you to take it to the talk page. When you engage in edits that an administrator has already stated are violations of the WP:BLP policy, there is no reason at all that you should expect that it would be the burden of others to go to the talk page first. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 11:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
How about a section on this to fill out the article with more general less controversial things? As patriarch he decides the direction the church takes... He has had to deal with ties with the Vatican and building bridges between Orthodoxy and Catholicism... What about these things and others? Malick78 ( talk) 16:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
See the notice, by clicking here. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 21:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Will this approach work for everyone involved? If so please place your ~~~~ below under "Yea this will work, let's fix it!". If it does not work for you, and you have a solution that is supported by policy please suggest it under "How about this instead?". Jeepday ( talk) 02:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Yea, this will work, let's fix it! Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 02:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
How about this instead?
The last series of edits by Frjohnwhiteford represents a clear WP:NPOV violation. He deleted all sourced information he did not like. This should be corrected. Biophys ( talk) 03:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I deleted biased commentary, NPOV spin on meager facts, original research, and double and triple references to the same documents. Biophys has reverted my attempts to correct the problems identified by the Admin. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 03:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Biophys' new divisions, and changing of the titles do not make sense. You have three "criticism", and only one response, which is to the first criticism, but which comes after the third criticism. You also continue to have overkill double and triple references to the same sources. You have POV commentary and original research regarding the nuns that clean the Patriarch's residence, and the appropriateness of the date of his marriage, and his alleged reasons for getting married. I have previous addressed the issue of his marriage, and as things are we have tabloid commentary...using actual tabloids from sources known to be hostile to the Russian Orthodox Church. We also have a further reading section, which is entirely redundant, given the footnotes, and highly selective. It also references sources that are themselves controversial. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 03:54, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
There are two goals here, the first and foremost is to build a good NPOV article, the second is to get all parties to work together towards the first goal. You both have good points, and you both have different perspectives. You also both have a good grasp of the subject.
Each of you tell me the one section header that you feel is most important in this article, you don't need to explain it just name it. Jeepday ( talk) 04:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I hear what you are saying Frjohnwhiteford, one step at a time. I would ask each of you to write one section, Frjohnwhiteford write "Criticism"; Biophys write "Relations between Orthodox Church and Russian State under Alexii II", keep it about 500 words or less. use good references, and don't worry about the what the other is doing. Take a couple days, do it well and when it's ready leave me a note and I will come look. Like we said before the section should only contain topics related to the section header. If you start feeling frustrated read Wikipedia:The Most Important Thing Possible or Wikipedia:There is no deadline. I believe you are both working in good faith to do what you think is best, you are both trying to work towards the same goal you just have different visions of the goal. If you finish your section before the other, just wait until you are both done before starting something new. Will this work to start? Jeepday ( talk) 05:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Sounds like you are both content to work on drafts, that is probably the best approach. If you don't know how to make a sub page let me know, unless you would prefer to work on your user page or off line. Jeepday ( talk) 22:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC) Jeepday asked me whether or not I supported his approach. I certainly do. DGG ( talk) 18:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
A big part of the argument here is editors removing other editors work. I am seeing what looks like reliably sourced material being removed. While we are striving for balance, please let the contributing editors shorten their own work. If you feel strongly that a single reference is not sufficient for some content then it is appropriate per WP:BLP to remove it from the main article. But when doing so please bring it to the talk page (with the references supplied) indicate your specific concerns and give the contributing editors a chance to supply additional references or adjust the text as needed. Thanks :) Jeepday ( talk) 16:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
It has been suggested that the content on nuns below represents WP:OR, it does not appear that there is previously published reference supporting the claim that there are nuns working in the household in violation of the canon. Please provide references supporting the assertion of wrongness, and seek approval for reliability of the sources here before reposting. Thanks Jeepday ( talk) 16:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC) the nuns are in charge of all the household chores and duties. The presence of unrelated women in an Orthodox bishop's house is canonically forbidden by the First Ecumenical Council (Canon 3 [40]) and Sixth Ecumenical Council (Canon 5 [41]).
There is also nothing in the sources to warrant the inclusion of the commentary "originally it was meant as Patriarch Alexius I's dacha". Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 17:41, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
There are three choices for my participation in this article, which would the editors of this article prefer? Jeepday ( talk) 14:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
There certainly remains a dispute about the neutrality of this article. There is no justification for removing it until the dispute is resolved. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 15:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
While I do not comment on Patriarch's alleged work for KGB -- I want to make a point that Sergian loyalty to the Soviet state which was oficially discussed by the Patriarch does not equal to the alleged KGB work.
Indeed, that's true that Patriarch Alexius acknowledged that compromises were made with the Soviet government by bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate, himself included, and publicly repented of these compromises:
But it's important to note it wasn't Patriarch's reply on his alleged KGB work, but rather than that, justification on his own loyalty to the state and Sergian principles in Soviet time. Suggesting that it concerned KGB work is original research. ellol ( talk) 01:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
It's not original research when you state the proper context of a quote, and then quote it, and that quote is from a reliable source. It is only original research when you try to string several facts together from various sources, to reach a conclusion that is not found in either. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 12:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)