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Please look at proposed material, here. Please comment at Talk:Sail components#Watch this space for a reorganization and rewrite. User:HopsonRoad 13:58, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
I just looked at the picture of the triangular mainsail. The most important part of the reefing system has been left out. The reef points are minor items to keep the bulk of the sail neat. The main strain is on the reef clew and reef tack, which are not shown. You must secure the clew and tack before you tie the reef points. Also a sail will normally have at least two three reefs.
-- AJim ( talk) 06:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be a particular preferred form of the spelling. A web search shows:
This might be a British/US thing, but I'm not sure. My US Webster's doesn't list the sail meaning for "leach", only for "leech". I don't recall which spelling I was taught, growing up in Bermuda, but I used "leech" until I saw "leach" in an article here, so I suspect that's the proper UK spelling too. Anyone know for sure? I'll use "leech" for now (given the count, and the dictionary results). Noel (talk) 19:06, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
PS: A search restricted to ".uk" produced:
So it seems there's just as much confusion there as there is globally! Noel (talk) 19:11, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone needs to modify the diagram to show the roach. Noel (talk) 18:09, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Square sails have a roach too. It refers to the curved lower edge. This curvature is required to allow the sail to clear the lower yard when it pivots around the mast. I will get back with a reference from Eric Newby.
-- AJim ( talk) 06:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
The roach is the curvature of a sail more than a specific area and can apply to the leech or the foot (on loose footed rigs) RobertShaftoe ( talk) 01:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Does clew sound the same a clue? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gohiking ( talk • contribs) 19:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
Yes. 71.136.229.150 ( talk) 21:08, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Take a minute to read the comments at Talk:Sailing#Re-write effort -- non how-to et seq. Some of us are working on re-organizing the sailing-related articles. See if you agree with our approach and give us some help. Mrees1997 19:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that earing probably makes sense as part of this article, instead of starning alone.
However, earing can help people who are looking for earring find their way, and I wouldn't want to add that clutter here.
Thoughts? — JBazuzi ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I disagree, unsurprising since I just created the earing article, I guess. I feel it is particularly good to keep it separate because of the potential for ambiguity with the term earring, not just from an organizational standpoint but from an informational standpoint. Not to mention, as far as my understanding goes, it is not technically part of the sail, but actually a line attached to the corner of the sail. Intelligence3 ( talk) 17:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Alrighty, no one else seems to care. What's the rule, there? Intelligence3 ( talk) 15:56, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Earing is no longer a common sailing term. The closest synonym is pennant, a short line used to hold the corner of a sail to some point of attachment (like the tack of a jib to the stem of the boat). Owner, New Day, Tartan 37 #16 Nov 9, 2009.
I was expecting some way to make a dab line, but can you do that for sections as well as pages? "Clew" is one of hte alternative names of New Clew, British Columbia, which also goes by Kloo and other variants (means "canoe" in the Skidegate dialect of the Haida language. Not sure if it's worth disambig'ing, but if it is...how to place it here? Got here because Clew is a redirect to here, or to the #Clew section that is. Skookum1 ( talk) 03:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Do the top corners of a square sail have a specific name? 71.136.229.150 ( talk) 20:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
On a gaff (or any quadrilateral fore-and-aft) rig the throat is the upper corner where the head (top edge) and luff join and the peak is the corner at the head and leech. I've never heard of a term for the upper corners of a square rig. Maybe they are both peaks because both are at the head/leech junction? RobertShaftoe ( talk) 01:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Just edited the triangular sails section for clarity and factual correction.The primary changes were the removal of definitions of standing rigging and running rigging, which are not part of the sail, but used to adjust it (therefore should likely have their own article), and the addition of a subsection of the draft of a sail, plus some reorganizing. Chalexthegreat ( talk) 19:21, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
The title, "Parts of a sail", has long struck me as odd. Does it refer to portions of a sail, to the pieces out of which the sail is made (gores, threads, grommets, bolt ropes, etc.), or are such elements as reefing lines, reinforcements at attachment points, lettering, or windows "parts of a sail", too? Is the roach or draft a "part"? I would prefer something more general, like "Sail terminology" "Elements of sails" or "Sail terms". User:Akerbeltz, User:7&6=thirteen, User:Mysha, User:Mcapdevila, User:Niceguy149, User:Chalexthegreat: What do others think? Perhaps you can register your preferences and why, below: User:HopsonRoad 17:08, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi User:HopsonRoad , the phrase "Parts of Sail" has become widely accepted in the sailing community to specifically describe the corners and edges of a sail. For example, U.S. Sailing's instruction books, as well as their Instructor Training courses use the phrase "Parts of Sail" to describe what is also described in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chalexthegreat ( talk • contribs) 15:20, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Enter your support for this with a reason and a proposed Lead sentence, below:
In this version, roach and draft would be elements that shape a sail and reefing points, grommets, gores would be constituent parts all of which have their nomenclature. User:HopsonRoad 23:26, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Enter your support for this with a reason and a proposed Lead sentence, below:
I'm still confused with the use of the word "parts" in this option. What are "parts"? Are gores, grommets, and reefing points parts? Is the roach or the draft of a sail a part? User:HopsonRoad 23:22, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Enter your support for this with a reason and a proposed Lead sentence, below:
Enter your support for this with a reason and a proposed Lead sentence, below:
Enter your support for these with a reason and a proposed Lead sentence, below:
If you like the current title, please explain why, below:
I think it's called that because it's a common pattern on Wikipedia i.e. there are a lot of "parts of X" pages. Maybe it just keeps things tidy. Akerbeltz ( talk) 01:01, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
True, I hadn't paid attention to that. Akerbeltz ( talk) 11:48, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
As I commented above, the phrase "parts of sail" is used in the sailing community to specifically describe the corners and edges of a sail, and not generally the material of the sail, or any rigging attached to it. Therefore, I think that, in its current form, the article should be titled "parts of sail," and a separate article should be made for the subject of sailmaking, sail material, and or sail components. Chalexthegreat ( talk) 15:37, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi User:7&6=thirteen and Akerbeltz, it seems that only we three are interested in this topic. Can we agree that the scope of the article should be about terms that describe the following?
If we can agree to those (please add anything else) then perhaps we can home in on a consensus title. User:HopsonRoad 21:26, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Then how does Sail components sound? It begins with Sail and we're really talking about the constituent components of a sail. It's also two words to the current title's four. The lead could be, "Sail components include the features that define sail shape and function, plus its constituent parts from which it is manufactured." Your thoughts, User:7&6=thirteen and Akerbeltz? User:HopsonRoad 12:44, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
See the following dictionary definitions of "component":
These are consistent with the usage in the article's title. User:HopsonRoad 15:12, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
MOS:NOBOLD says, "Avoid using boldface for emphasis in article text. ...." Whereas, MOS:ITAL says, "Use italics when mentioning a word or letter (see Use–mention distinction) or a string of words up to one full sentence (the term panning is derived from panorama; the most common letter in English is e)." Unless there are objections, I plan to convert terms in this article from bf to ital. User:HopsonRoad 01:26, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
There is a lot of redundancy in the organization of this article. I propose to order it in the following hierarchy:
I'll start a sandbox on this talk page to demonstrate a proposed re-organization, before carrying it to the main page. User:HopsonRoad 15:08, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
I have outlined a reorganization and rewritten the lede at Talk:Sail components/Sandbox for revision development. Please post your comments here, as the rewrite progresses. User:HopsonRoad 14:06, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi User:HopsonRoad Your proposed rewrite is quite good. I think the as you have it should be divided into two, with the dividing point at the section titled construction. Chalexthegreat ( talk) 15:47, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Should Sail components#Head redirect to the part in Edge or in Corner? Banak ( talk) 23:36, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
Why does the Sail components#Legends section show the Genoa jib legend with a number and the Gaff mainsail legend with a bullet? I'd like to make them both numbers! User:HopsonRoad 15:06, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Move content to sail: many sections overlap D1gggg ( talk) 22:11, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi y'all,
While reading up on some naval history I noticed that Roach (sail) ( direct link to redirect page) presently lacks a specific target at Sail components to land upon. In section Sail components#Battens this actually results in the 'roach' wikilink there just looping back to the top of the article it's placed in. In looking into this I also noticed a number of other broken redirects listed for other terms redirected to this article. A lack of a clear targets here may well be confusing to readers arriving from use of such redirects in other articles.
Seems like there are already a few editors with an established interest in working on this article and the topics which it covers so I thought I'd bring the situation to y'all's notice for consideration.
Thanks for your time and attention, -- 75.188.199.98 ( talk) 06:27, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
I think the current, footnoted legends for genoa and gaff components are rather impractical, and even the pop ups are, as they obstruct the pictures AND require mouse-over. Since this is the main topic of the article, I think it would be an improvement, and much easier to read, if these two diagrams had their legend right in the image text box. Opinions? -- Theoprakt ( talk) 20:47, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Here's my thinking, Theoprakt:
I suggest that, in any case, the two illustrations should be similar in size, as shown in Treatment 3.
Cheers, HopsonRoad ( talk) 12:59, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi Wikiuser100, your recent edits pertaining to "luff" appear to apply too narrowly to a square sail. Symmetrical spinnakers are more widely used, today, and the term "luff" is not an occasional one, when referring to the windward side; nor is the windward side a luff only when the sail is close-hauled, since they are reaching sails. See, for example, The Best of Sail Trim, edited by Charles Mason and Go Dinghy Sailing by Barry Pickthall Pertaining to square sails, I would give King and Hattendorf precedence over the Oxford dictionary when it comes to nautical terms. They say that (of a square-rigged vessel), "In some seamanship manuals this (the luff), was called the weather leech". Let's find a way to accommodate this breadth of definitions. Cheers, HopsonRoad ( talk) 18:39, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Hi A loose necktie, You added the statement that "If the curve along the foot is unusually pronounced, the sail is said to be 'hollow-footed'." After I reverted this addition, you reinstated it with a 1794 reference. Thank you! However, the reference doesn't support the wording that you provided. It says of the term, "hollow" (my emphasis):
The only other reference to "hollow-footed" in the literature that I found says, "Sovereign of the Seas fore and main courses and topsails were roached, or hollow-footed: that is the foot was arched up so as to conserve canvas;...." [1]
This suggests that the term is no longer common, indeed it is archaic. None of the quotations support "If the curve along the foot is unusually pronounced", since this seems to be a usual feature in sailmaking. I'm not sure that I understand completely, what "hollow" means, unless it refers the the amount of roach—the departure of the curvature of the foot away from a straight line—a standard feature of square sails.
I suggest that the topic be discussed under "Roach", where we might say, "Roach is a term also applied to square sail design—it is the arc of a circle above a straight line from clew to clew at the foot of a square sail, from which sail material is omitted. The greater the departure from the straight line, the greater the 'hollow' in the roach." Cheers, HopsonRoad ( talk) 02:36, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Please look at proposed material, here. Please comment at Talk:Sail components#Watch this space for a reorganization and rewrite. User:HopsonRoad 13:58, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
I just looked at the picture of the triangular mainsail. The most important part of the reefing system has been left out. The reef points are minor items to keep the bulk of the sail neat. The main strain is on the reef clew and reef tack, which are not shown. You must secure the clew and tack before you tie the reef points. Also a sail will normally have at least two three reefs.
-- AJim ( talk) 06:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be a particular preferred form of the spelling. A web search shows:
This might be a British/US thing, but I'm not sure. My US Webster's doesn't list the sail meaning for "leach", only for "leech". I don't recall which spelling I was taught, growing up in Bermuda, but I used "leech" until I saw "leach" in an article here, so I suspect that's the proper UK spelling too. Anyone know for sure? I'll use "leech" for now (given the count, and the dictionary results). Noel (talk) 19:06, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
PS: A search restricted to ".uk" produced:
So it seems there's just as much confusion there as there is globally! Noel (talk) 19:11, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone needs to modify the diagram to show the roach. Noel (talk) 18:09, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Square sails have a roach too. It refers to the curved lower edge. This curvature is required to allow the sail to clear the lower yard when it pivots around the mast. I will get back with a reference from Eric Newby.
-- AJim ( talk) 06:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
The roach is the curvature of a sail more than a specific area and can apply to the leech or the foot (on loose footed rigs) RobertShaftoe ( talk) 01:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Does clew sound the same a clue? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gohiking ( talk • contribs) 19:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
Yes. 71.136.229.150 ( talk) 21:08, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Take a minute to read the comments at Talk:Sailing#Re-write effort -- non how-to et seq. Some of us are working on re-organizing the sailing-related articles. See if you agree with our approach and give us some help. Mrees1997 19:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that earing probably makes sense as part of this article, instead of starning alone.
However, earing can help people who are looking for earring find their way, and I wouldn't want to add that clutter here.
Thoughts? — JBazuzi ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I disagree, unsurprising since I just created the earing article, I guess. I feel it is particularly good to keep it separate because of the potential for ambiguity with the term earring, not just from an organizational standpoint but from an informational standpoint. Not to mention, as far as my understanding goes, it is not technically part of the sail, but actually a line attached to the corner of the sail. Intelligence3 ( talk) 17:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Alrighty, no one else seems to care. What's the rule, there? Intelligence3 ( talk) 15:56, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Earing is no longer a common sailing term. The closest synonym is pennant, a short line used to hold the corner of a sail to some point of attachment (like the tack of a jib to the stem of the boat). Owner, New Day, Tartan 37 #16 Nov 9, 2009.
I was expecting some way to make a dab line, but can you do that for sections as well as pages? "Clew" is one of hte alternative names of New Clew, British Columbia, which also goes by Kloo and other variants (means "canoe" in the Skidegate dialect of the Haida language. Not sure if it's worth disambig'ing, but if it is...how to place it here? Got here because Clew is a redirect to here, or to the #Clew section that is. Skookum1 ( talk) 03:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Do the top corners of a square sail have a specific name? 71.136.229.150 ( talk) 20:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
On a gaff (or any quadrilateral fore-and-aft) rig the throat is the upper corner where the head (top edge) and luff join and the peak is the corner at the head and leech. I've never heard of a term for the upper corners of a square rig. Maybe they are both peaks because both are at the head/leech junction? RobertShaftoe ( talk) 01:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Just edited the triangular sails section for clarity and factual correction.The primary changes were the removal of definitions of standing rigging and running rigging, which are not part of the sail, but used to adjust it (therefore should likely have their own article), and the addition of a subsection of the draft of a sail, plus some reorganizing. Chalexthegreat ( talk) 19:21, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
The title, "Parts of a sail", has long struck me as odd. Does it refer to portions of a sail, to the pieces out of which the sail is made (gores, threads, grommets, bolt ropes, etc.), or are such elements as reefing lines, reinforcements at attachment points, lettering, or windows "parts of a sail", too? Is the roach or draft a "part"? I would prefer something more general, like "Sail terminology" "Elements of sails" or "Sail terms". User:Akerbeltz, User:7&6=thirteen, User:Mysha, User:Mcapdevila, User:Niceguy149, User:Chalexthegreat: What do others think? Perhaps you can register your preferences and why, below: User:HopsonRoad 17:08, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi User:HopsonRoad , the phrase "Parts of Sail" has become widely accepted in the sailing community to specifically describe the corners and edges of a sail. For example, U.S. Sailing's instruction books, as well as their Instructor Training courses use the phrase "Parts of Sail" to describe what is also described in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chalexthegreat ( talk • contribs) 15:20, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Enter your support for this with a reason and a proposed Lead sentence, below:
In this version, roach and draft would be elements that shape a sail and reefing points, grommets, gores would be constituent parts all of which have their nomenclature. User:HopsonRoad 23:26, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Enter your support for this with a reason and a proposed Lead sentence, below:
I'm still confused with the use of the word "parts" in this option. What are "parts"? Are gores, grommets, and reefing points parts? Is the roach or the draft of a sail a part? User:HopsonRoad 23:22, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Enter your support for this with a reason and a proposed Lead sentence, below:
Enter your support for this with a reason and a proposed Lead sentence, below:
Enter your support for these with a reason and a proposed Lead sentence, below:
If you like the current title, please explain why, below:
I think it's called that because it's a common pattern on Wikipedia i.e. there are a lot of "parts of X" pages. Maybe it just keeps things tidy. Akerbeltz ( talk) 01:01, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
True, I hadn't paid attention to that. Akerbeltz ( talk) 11:48, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
As I commented above, the phrase "parts of sail" is used in the sailing community to specifically describe the corners and edges of a sail, and not generally the material of the sail, or any rigging attached to it. Therefore, I think that, in its current form, the article should be titled "parts of sail," and a separate article should be made for the subject of sailmaking, sail material, and or sail components. Chalexthegreat ( talk) 15:37, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi User:7&6=thirteen and Akerbeltz, it seems that only we three are interested in this topic. Can we agree that the scope of the article should be about terms that describe the following?
If we can agree to those (please add anything else) then perhaps we can home in on a consensus title. User:HopsonRoad 21:26, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Then how does Sail components sound? It begins with Sail and we're really talking about the constituent components of a sail. It's also two words to the current title's four. The lead could be, "Sail components include the features that define sail shape and function, plus its constituent parts from which it is manufactured." Your thoughts, User:7&6=thirteen and Akerbeltz? User:HopsonRoad 12:44, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
See the following dictionary definitions of "component":
These are consistent with the usage in the article's title. User:HopsonRoad 15:12, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
MOS:NOBOLD says, "Avoid using boldface for emphasis in article text. ...." Whereas, MOS:ITAL says, "Use italics when mentioning a word or letter (see Use–mention distinction) or a string of words up to one full sentence (the term panning is derived from panorama; the most common letter in English is e)." Unless there are objections, I plan to convert terms in this article from bf to ital. User:HopsonRoad 01:26, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
There is a lot of redundancy in the organization of this article. I propose to order it in the following hierarchy:
I'll start a sandbox on this talk page to demonstrate a proposed re-organization, before carrying it to the main page. User:HopsonRoad 15:08, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
I have outlined a reorganization and rewritten the lede at Talk:Sail components/Sandbox for revision development. Please post your comments here, as the rewrite progresses. User:HopsonRoad 14:06, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi User:HopsonRoad Your proposed rewrite is quite good. I think the as you have it should be divided into two, with the dividing point at the section titled construction. Chalexthegreat ( talk) 15:47, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Should Sail components#Head redirect to the part in Edge or in Corner? Banak ( talk) 23:36, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
Why does the Sail components#Legends section show the Genoa jib legend with a number and the Gaff mainsail legend with a bullet? I'd like to make them both numbers! User:HopsonRoad 15:06, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Move content to sail: many sections overlap D1gggg ( talk) 22:11, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi y'all,
While reading up on some naval history I noticed that Roach (sail) ( direct link to redirect page) presently lacks a specific target at Sail components to land upon. In section Sail components#Battens this actually results in the 'roach' wikilink there just looping back to the top of the article it's placed in. In looking into this I also noticed a number of other broken redirects listed for other terms redirected to this article. A lack of a clear targets here may well be confusing to readers arriving from use of such redirects in other articles.
Seems like there are already a few editors with an established interest in working on this article and the topics which it covers so I thought I'd bring the situation to y'all's notice for consideration.
Thanks for your time and attention, -- 75.188.199.98 ( talk) 06:27, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
I think the current, footnoted legends for genoa and gaff components are rather impractical, and even the pop ups are, as they obstruct the pictures AND require mouse-over. Since this is the main topic of the article, I think it would be an improvement, and much easier to read, if these two diagrams had their legend right in the image text box. Opinions? -- Theoprakt ( talk) 20:47, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Here's my thinking, Theoprakt:
I suggest that, in any case, the two illustrations should be similar in size, as shown in Treatment 3.
Cheers, HopsonRoad ( talk) 12:59, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi Wikiuser100, your recent edits pertaining to "luff" appear to apply too narrowly to a square sail. Symmetrical spinnakers are more widely used, today, and the term "luff" is not an occasional one, when referring to the windward side; nor is the windward side a luff only when the sail is close-hauled, since they are reaching sails. See, for example, The Best of Sail Trim, edited by Charles Mason and Go Dinghy Sailing by Barry Pickthall Pertaining to square sails, I would give King and Hattendorf precedence over the Oxford dictionary when it comes to nautical terms. They say that (of a square-rigged vessel), "In some seamanship manuals this (the luff), was called the weather leech". Let's find a way to accommodate this breadth of definitions. Cheers, HopsonRoad ( talk) 18:39, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Hi A loose necktie, You added the statement that "If the curve along the foot is unusually pronounced, the sail is said to be 'hollow-footed'." After I reverted this addition, you reinstated it with a 1794 reference. Thank you! However, the reference doesn't support the wording that you provided. It says of the term, "hollow" (my emphasis):
The only other reference to "hollow-footed" in the literature that I found says, "Sovereign of the Seas fore and main courses and topsails were roached, or hollow-footed: that is the foot was arched up so as to conserve canvas;...." [1]
This suggests that the term is no longer common, indeed it is archaic. None of the quotations support "If the curve along the foot is unusually pronounced", since this seems to be a usual feature in sailmaking. I'm not sure that I understand completely, what "hollow" means, unless it refers the the amount of roach—the departure of the curvature of the foot away from a straight line—a standard feature of square sails.
I suggest that the topic be discussed under "Roach", where we might say, "Roach is a term also applied to square sail design—it is the arc of a circle above a straight line from clew to clew at the foot of a square sail, from which sail material is omitted. The greater the departure from the straight line, the greater the 'hollow' in the roach." Cheers, HopsonRoad ( talk) 02:36, 4 January 2021 (UTC)