Frequently asked questions
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![]() | Armenian Leopard Conservation Society was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 18 September 2015 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Panthera pardus tulliana. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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The article starts with "Panthera pardus tulliana is the Persian leopard or Anatolian leopard". I think this is inaccurate as the Persian leopard and Anatolian leopard are not synonyms for the same population. One is from the Iran region and the other from Anatolia, but both belong to the same subspecies as defined now. Perhaps something along the lines:
Panthera pardus tulliana is a leopard subspecies with a historical distribution in the Caucasus, Southern Russia, Iran, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Turkey. In the past several subspecies were described for leopards within this range, including Panthera pardus saxicolor in Iran (the Persian leopard), with Panthera pardus tulliana restricted to leopards in Turkey (the Anatolian leopard).
It's difficult to get the necessary precision without getting too wordy, so I think it best discussed here before making changes. The above makes the point, but the wording can certainly be improved upon. It took a while to get agreement on the phrasing for the former tiger subspecies. — Jts1882 | talk 14:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
I suggest the following definition: .. is a leopard subspecies in the region encompassing Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iranian Plateau
With this focus on ecosystems, we don't need to list the countries in the lede. What do you think? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
17:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
.. is a leopard subspecies in parts of Anatolia, the Caucasus, the Iranian Plateau, and some surrounding areas? Chidgk1 ( talk) 17:35, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
.. parts of .., as this is apparently a recent i.e. 20th century phenomenon that the pop in Turkey declined to "parts of". Still in the 1950s-60s, more localities were known than today. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 18:16, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Most of the population of this subspecies of leopard live inside the borders of Iran (almost %70), also this subspecies is the apex predator of Iran's wildlife, the name Persian leopard is a good choice for this title. KuroshM ( talk) 15:48, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Maybe it needs amending? Please see my comment at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Leopard-tulliana-range.png Chidgk1 ( talk) 06:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Hey @ Chidgk1: you may have seen the recent repeated additions re the cat images in Sarı et al. (2020). What do you think and know about these claims? -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 07:09, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Re above I had not seen that website before but it seems to be a forum for sharing and discussing photos of wild mammals, not a newspaper. I will ask on Turkish Wikipedia whether anyone thinks it is a reliable source or not and if I get an answer I will feedback here. Chidgk1 ( talk) 08:22, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
@ LPFCW: what is your source for changing it to saxicolor? The most recent taxonomic analysis confirm it is tulliana. And why are you changing the order of the countries? It isn't important. Ddum5347 ( talk) 00:27, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@
Ddum5347: My source is the genetic studies done by various researchers. For instance, please see:
And much of scientific papers in high ranking journals that all refer to the subspecies in this region as the Persian leopard.
Would you please let me know what is your source to change the entire page name under the name of the Anatolian L.? -- LPFCW ( talk) 00:43, 7 April 2021 (UTC)LPFCW
@
LPFCW: Unless there is a widely accepted taxonomic study that names this subspecies as P. p. saxicolor, that "newsletter" you so disdain is considered the standard reference for specific and subspecific statuses here on Wikipedia. Please halt your editing and engage in discussion here before this devolves into an edit war for which you may be blocked. --
SilverTiger12 (
talk)
02:01, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Ddum5347: I admit you have wasted much of my time by your fault! But, that is not A SCIENTIFIC PAPER! If this is not a censorship or nationalistic issue, why you do not use a scientific paper with methodology?! By the way, the reason that tulliana is still up there in the title is because my IT people will join me tomorrow to fix this issue on this page!
That is fine if the admins see that you have done distorting scientific information with questionable purposes?!. If you are not distorting the information, why didn't you just change the saxicolor to tulliana according to your newsletter reference? Why did you change the Persian leopard in the title?!!!
The merging of the former separate pages on Anatolian leopard and Persian leopard was discussed between Dec 2020 and March this year, see Talk:Persian_leopard#Merger_proposal_2. It was unanimously decided to merge the 2 pages under the title of the Latin name. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 10:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Hey Chidgk1 : do you know whether the leopard is protected by law in Turkey meanwhile? In the 1970s, it was not. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 08:46, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Hey Chidgk1 : a Turkish friend just sent me this link : https://www.sozcu.com.tr/hayatim/yasam-haberleri/yok-oldugu-saniliyordu-sirnakta-goruldu/amp/. Would you like to translate some content about the where and when to main page? I suppose, a scientific article may be published soon, then we can change the ref. Cheers -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 15:09, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
We have 2 issues here:
Therefore, imo, we shouldn't rely on a newspaper article re assigning subspecific and population status in Pakistan. @ Jts1882 and Chidgk1: please comment. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 14:00, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
tandoori food: most ridiculous stuff I've ever read in conjunction with leopards
I will remove the inline reference to the newspaper article, see also WP:NOTNEWS. Do you object? -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 07:33, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
I really don't want to stoke up more nationalism but "Pakistan" is now mentioned in the lead but not the body. So should it be removed or changed to "formerly Pakistan" or "possibly Pakistan" or "possibly neighboring countries" or "formerly neighbouring countries". I somewhat favor the last option. Chidgk1 ( talk) 09:31, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
References
Is there a precise reason for which this species is not also referred to as the Iranian Leopard? Since it inhabits Iran as well, it should also have the name Iranian Leopard, since Persia denotes the ancient predecessor of Iran. I understand that the name is not sourced/linked (yet), but the question still lingers, If anyone can answer this for me, it would be much appreciated. Firekong1 ( talk) 20:14, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm cannot recall at the moment, but I remember it was used in a news article regarding leopard subspecies referring to the animal as such. If I find the article (and indeed any literature that uses the name "Iranian Leopard", then will it be valid for entry? Firekong1 ( talk) 21:31, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Never mind, I found it here: http://www.cathouse-fcc.org/persian-leopard-.html This was the article I was referring to, though I am not sure if this counts as a legitimate and acceptable source.
I also found another use of the name in a paper here. [1] [2] I hope this counts as being acceptable and helps with this debacle. Firekong1 ( talk) 21:33, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Here, this should help: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271335940_Molecular_and_craniological_analysis_of_leopard_Panthera_pardus_Carnivora_Felidae_in_Iran_Support_for_a_monophyletic_clade_in_Western_Asia
The name of the paper is Molecular and craniological analysis of leopard, Panthera pardus (Carnivora: Felidae) in Iran: support for a monophyletic clade in Western Asia.
unsigned comment added by Firekong1 ( talk • contribs) 14:00, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
So should we add in Iranian Leopard or not? Firekong1 ( talk) 16:53, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
Alright then. But in case of future reference for which this term is used a common name, then can it be added in? I'm simply asking to avoid potential misunderstandings when the name is used more often as a common name. Firekong1 ( talk) 17:18, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
For info - there is already a redirect Chidgk1 ( talk) 19:24, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
And where would this redirect be? Firekong1 ( talk) 00:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, Chidgk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Firekong1 ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 12 December 2021 (UTC) Just for clarification, in the future when the name is potentially used as a common name, I will NOT hesitate to add it in. In fact, when I achieve my goal of pursuing studies of the natural world, I may publish several papers using this common name, though I personally not sure if this is legitimate, allowed, or even legal. In addition, you (Bhagya) never said how long a name must be in use for it to be added within a page. Firekong1 ( talk) 01:40, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
I mean could the range be superimposed on a cropped version of this? Or would that be too hard to make out? Perhaps range boundaries could be blurred.
Because that might help to visualize how populations are separated (if known). For example presumably impossible to cross Georgian lowlands nowadays.
Chidgk1 ( talk) 19:24, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
https://www.thezooscientist.com/persian-leopard seems to be saying each population is less than 100 if I understood right Chidgk1 ( talk) 17:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
https://www.thezooscientist.com/persian-leopard says so but does anyone have a better cite? Chidgk1 ( talk) 17:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
The figure in the Guardian article of Feb 2022 for the wild population are NOT recent ones; and the source for this figure is ???. The latest estimate referred to in the 2020 IUCN Red List account dates 2008 : 800-1000 mature individuals
, see Stein et al. (2020), ref 1. –
BhagyaMani (
talk)
06:42, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Probably unlikely to have anything useful so I doubt worth paying to read but I link here in case anyone already has free access and wants to check https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-021-01655-1 Chidgk1 ( talk) 06:14, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
If you agree maybe you would like to add some of the most important info. Chidgk1 ( talk) 10:41, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
If cites should be in lead please let me know Chidgk1 ( talk) 12:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
I think the article should be called Persian leopard. This is the most common name for the subspecies. -- Altaileopard ( talk) 14:16, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
IP editor changed from EN to NT and I reverted as cite had not been changed - but should it be VU as that is what cite says? Chidgk1 ( talk) 18:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
The Leopard of southwestern Asia .., however, due to overall low numbers and restricted range, this subspecies should remain listed as Endangered. – BhagyaMani ( talk) 18:53, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
For example how do we know Indian leopard is a different subspecies as they apparently interbreed? Chidgk1 ( talk) 09:39, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Is a source for the name "Iranian leopard" really required? The rest of the common names lack sources. Firekong1 ( talk) 14:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Sometimes “the” is important for the meaning - here it is not.
@ Firekong1 You are too young to become a grammar pedant
@ Bhagyamani You are too old to be wasting your time antagonising people over unimportant stuff
I did not go to Oxford or Cambridge so I don’t care about Oxford commas and I can propel the punt from either end Chidgk1 ( talk) 19:40, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
I attempted to merge Wikidata item Persian leopard (Q729713) with persian leopard (Q754336) but was unsuccessful. If you are skilled with Wikidata perhaps you would like to try. Chidgk1 ( talk) 20:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
I don’t know any Farsi but from Google Translate that article seems to say that all subpopulations are less than 100 animals but without a recent cite.
Is this true and if so how do we know? Chidgk1 ( talk) 20:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
National Geographic, IUCN, WWF and... all of them are called Persian leopard. What is the scientific name of this subspecies depends on taxonomists, but the largest population of this leopard lives in Iran. That we call the Persian leopard the Anatolian leopard is like calling the Indian leopard the Pakistani leopard from now on, because some of them live in Pakistan. This is ridiculous. User:Mohammad.hasnaki
@ UtherSRG: please comment and also see this page's history. Both Chidgk1 and I have repeatedly reverted above new user's quite disruptive edits. – BhagyaMani ( talk) 09:04, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Frequently asked questions
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![]() | Armenian Leopard Conservation Society was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 18 September 2015 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Panthera pardus tulliana. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The article starts with "Panthera pardus tulliana is the Persian leopard or Anatolian leopard". I think this is inaccurate as the Persian leopard and Anatolian leopard are not synonyms for the same population. One is from the Iran region and the other from Anatolia, but both belong to the same subspecies as defined now. Perhaps something along the lines:
Panthera pardus tulliana is a leopard subspecies with a historical distribution in the Caucasus, Southern Russia, Iran, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Turkey. In the past several subspecies were described for leopards within this range, including Panthera pardus saxicolor in Iran (the Persian leopard), with Panthera pardus tulliana restricted to leopards in Turkey (the Anatolian leopard).
It's difficult to get the necessary precision without getting too wordy, so I think it best discussed here before making changes. The above makes the point, but the wording can certainly be improved upon. It took a while to get agreement on the phrasing for the former tiger subspecies. — Jts1882 | talk 14:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
I suggest the following definition: .. is a leopard subspecies in the region encompassing Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iranian Plateau
With this focus on ecosystems, we don't need to list the countries in the lede. What do you think? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
17:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
.. is a leopard subspecies in parts of Anatolia, the Caucasus, the Iranian Plateau, and some surrounding areas? Chidgk1 ( talk) 17:35, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
.. parts of .., as this is apparently a recent i.e. 20th century phenomenon that the pop in Turkey declined to "parts of". Still in the 1950s-60s, more localities were known than today. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 18:16, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Most of the population of this subspecies of leopard live inside the borders of Iran (almost %70), also this subspecies is the apex predator of Iran's wildlife, the name Persian leopard is a good choice for this title. KuroshM ( talk) 15:48, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Maybe it needs amending? Please see my comment at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Leopard-tulliana-range.png Chidgk1 ( talk) 06:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Hey @ Chidgk1: you may have seen the recent repeated additions re the cat images in Sarı et al. (2020). What do you think and know about these claims? -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 07:09, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Re above I had not seen that website before but it seems to be a forum for sharing and discussing photos of wild mammals, not a newspaper. I will ask on Turkish Wikipedia whether anyone thinks it is a reliable source or not and if I get an answer I will feedback here. Chidgk1 ( talk) 08:22, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
@ LPFCW: what is your source for changing it to saxicolor? The most recent taxonomic analysis confirm it is tulliana. And why are you changing the order of the countries? It isn't important. Ddum5347 ( talk) 00:27, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@
Ddum5347: My source is the genetic studies done by various researchers. For instance, please see:
And much of scientific papers in high ranking journals that all refer to the subspecies in this region as the Persian leopard.
Would you please let me know what is your source to change the entire page name under the name of the Anatolian L.? -- LPFCW ( talk) 00:43, 7 April 2021 (UTC)LPFCW
@
LPFCW: Unless there is a widely accepted taxonomic study that names this subspecies as P. p. saxicolor, that "newsletter" you so disdain is considered the standard reference for specific and subspecific statuses here on Wikipedia. Please halt your editing and engage in discussion here before this devolves into an edit war for which you may be blocked. --
SilverTiger12 (
talk)
02:01, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Ddum5347: I admit you have wasted much of my time by your fault! But, that is not A SCIENTIFIC PAPER! If this is not a censorship or nationalistic issue, why you do not use a scientific paper with methodology?! By the way, the reason that tulliana is still up there in the title is because my IT people will join me tomorrow to fix this issue on this page!
That is fine if the admins see that you have done distorting scientific information with questionable purposes?!. If you are not distorting the information, why didn't you just change the saxicolor to tulliana according to your newsletter reference? Why did you change the Persian leopard in the title?!!!
The merging of the former separate pages on Anatolian leopard and Persian leopard was discussed between Dec 2020 and March this year, see Talk:Persian_leopard#Merger_proposal_2. It was unanimously decided to merge the 2 pages under the title of the Latin name. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 10:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Hey Chidgk1 : do you know whether the leopard is protected by law in Turkey meanwhile? In the 1970s, it was not. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 08:46, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Hey Chidgk1 : a Turkish friend just sent me this link : https://www.sozcu.com.tr/hayatim/yasam-haberleri/yok-oldugu-saniliyordu-sirnakta-goruldu/amp/. Would you like to translate some content about the where and when to main page? I suppose, a scientific article may be published soon, then we can change the ref. Cheers -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 15:09, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
We have 2 issues here:
Therefore, imo, we shouldn't rely on a newspaper article re assigning subspecific and population status in Pakistan. @ Jts1882 and Chidgk1: please comment. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 14:00, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
tandoori food: most ridiculous stuff I've ever read in conjunction with leopards
I will remove the inline reference to the newspaper article, see also WP:NOTNEWS. Do you object? -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 07:33, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
I really don't want to stoke up more nationalism but "Pakistan" is now mentioned in the lead but not the body. So should it be removed or changed to "formerly Pakistan" or "possibly Pakistan" or "possibly neighboring countries" or "formerly neighbouring countries". I somewhat favor the last option. Chidgk1 ( talk) 09:31, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
References
Is there a precise reason for which this species is not also referred to as the Iranian Leopard? Since it inhabits Iran as well, it should also have the name Iranian Leopard, since Persia denotes the ancient predecessor of Iran. I understand that the name is not sourced/linked (yet), but the question still lingers, If anyone can answer this for me, it would be much appreciated. Firekong1 ( talk) 20:14, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm cannot recall at the moment, but I remember it was used in a news article regarding leopard subspecies referring to the animal as such. If I find the article (and indeed any literature that uses the name "Iranian Leopard", then will it be valid for entry? Firekong1 ( talk) 21:31, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Never mind, I found it here: http://www.cathouse-fcc.org/persian-leopard-.html This was the article I was referring to, though I am not sure if this counts as a legitimate and acceptable source.
I also found another use of the name in a paper here. [1] [2] I hope this counts as being acceptable and helps with this debacle. Firekong1 ( talk) 21:33, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Here, this should help: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271335940_Molecular_and_craniological_analysis_of_leopard_Panthera_pardus_Carnivora_Felidae_in_Iran_Support_for_a_monophyletic_clade_in_Western_Asia
The name of the paper is Molecular and craniological analysis of leopard, Panthera pardus (Carnivora: Felidae) in Iran: support for a monophyletic clade in Western Asia.
unsigned comment added by Firekong1 ( talk • contribs) 14:00, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
So should we add in Iranian Leopard or not? Firekong1 ( talk) 16:53, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
Alright then. But in case of future reference for which this term is used a common name, then can it be added in? I'm simply asking to avoid potential misunderstandings when the name is used more often as a common name. Firekong1 ( talk) 17:18, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
For info - there is already a redirect Chidgk1 ( talk) 19:24, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
And where would this redirect be? Firekong1 ( talk) 00:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, Chidgk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Firekong1 ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 12 December 2021 (UTC) Just for clarification, in the future when the name is potentially used as a common name, I will NOT hesitate to add it in. In fact, when I achieve my goal of pursuing studies of the natural world, I may publish several papers using this common name, though I personally not sure if this is legitimate, allowed, or even legal. In addition, you (Bhagya) never said how long a name must be in use for it to be added within a page. Firekong1 ( talk) 01:40, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
I mean could the range be superimposed on a cropped version of this? Or would that be too hard to make out? Perhaps range boundaries could be blurred.
Because that might help to visualize how populations are separated (if known). For example presumably impossible to cross Georgian lowlands nowadays.
Chidgk1 ( talk) 19:24, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
https://www.thezooscientist.com/persian-leopard seems to be saying each population is less than 100 if I understood right Chidgk1 ( talk) 17:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
https://www.thezooscientist.com/persian-leopard says so but does anyone have a better cite? Chidgk1 ( talk) 17:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
The figure in the Guardian article of Feb 2022 for the wild population are NOT recent ones; and the source for this figure is ???. The latest estimate referred to in the 2020 IUCN Red List account dates 2008 : 800-1000 mature individuals
, see Stein et al. (2020), ref 1. –
BhagyaMani (
talk)
06:42, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Probably unlikely to have anything useful so I doubt worth paying to read but I link here in case anyone already has free access and wants to check https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-021-01655-1 Chidgk1 ( talk) 06:14, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
If you agree maybe you would like to add some of the most important info. Chidgk1 ( talk) 10:41, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
If cites should be in lead please let me know Chidgk1 ( talk) 12:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
I think the article should be called Persian leopard. This is the most common name for the subspecies. -- Altaileopard ( talk) 14:16, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
IP editor changed from EN to NT and I reverted as cite had not been changed - but should it be VU as that is what cite says? Chidgk1 ( talk) 18:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
The Leopard of southwestern Asia .., however, due to overall low numbers and restricted range, this subspecies should remain listed as Endangered. – BhagyaMani ( talk) 18:53, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
For example how do we know Indian leopard is a different subspecies as they apparently interbreed? Chidgk1 ( talk) 09:39, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Is a source for the name "Iranian leopard" really required? The rest of the common names lack sources. Firekong1 ( talk) 14:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Sometimes “the” is important for the meaning - here it is not.
@ Firekong1 You are too young to become a grammar pedant
@ Bhagyamani You are too old to be wasting your time antagonising people over unimportant stuff
I did not go to Oxford or Cambridge so I don’t care about Oxford commas and I can propel the punt from either end Chidgk1 ( talk) 19:40, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
I attempted to merge Wikidata item Persian leopard (Q729713) with persian leopard (Q754336) but was unsuccessful. If you are skilled with Wikidata perhaps you would like to try. Chidgk1 ( talk) 20:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
I don’t know any Farsi but from Google Translate that article seems to say that all subpopulations are less than 100 animals but without a recent cite.
Is this true and if so how do we know? Chidgk1 ( talk) 20:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
National Geographic, IUCN, WWF and... all of them are called Persian leopard. What is the scientific name of this subspecies depends on taxonomists, but the largest population of this leopard lives in Iran. That we call the Persian leopard the Anatolian leopard is like calling the Indian leopard the Pakistani leopard from now on, because some of them live in Pakistan. This is ridiculous. User:Mohammad.hasnaki
@ UtherSRG: please comment and also see this page's history. Both Chidgk1 and I have repeatedly reverted above new user's quite disruptive edits. – BhagyaMani ( talk) 09:04, 24 April 2024 (UTC)