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I don't see any reason why polish name should be included for this given city - I'd understand if the name was totally different, but not in this case then name is the same, just in different alphabet. If polish name is included, does it mean names in all world languages should be included?? Knutux 13:20, 2004 Jun 27 (UTC)
The article says "Inhabitants of Panevėžys area were the oldest pagans in Europe." If read literally, this says that there were no pagans in Europe before those inhabitants, which is clearly nonsense. I would change it, but I'm not clear what it is supposed to mean: does the writer mean 'among the last pagans in Europe to be Christianised'?
Lysy, you asked me if the addition of the Polish name in the article, "bothered me" on your talk page. Bothered me is too strong of a word, irritates me, is a better choice. This irritation is the result of a definite Double Standard, being applied to former cities of the Lithuanian-Polish Commonwealth. If the purpose is to inform or educate English speaking readers of Wikipedia, that would be good, but I'm not sure that this is the reason it's being done. Panevezys was never part of Poland. I added the Lithuanian name for Gniezno, Molobo, reverted it, calling it "irrelevant", Kernavė, however has "relevantly" (sic) been edited with it's Polish name added by Halibutt and re-added by you. I added the Lithuanian name for Lublin, Balcer removed it, because it is "liguistically not connected to Poland". This, in spite of its historical, ( Union of Lublin), association with Lithuania. My actual solution is very simple, if an English speaking Wikipedian wants to know what the Polish name for Rome is, he or she can search for Rome. They can then link to the Polish article and see that it's Rzym. No need to add Rzym in parenthesis in the English version. Back to Panevezys, there is a Polish article about the city. The English speaking Wikipedian can link to the Polish article if they need to know the Polish name of the city. If this doesn't seem fair or make sense, please explain why Panevezys (forget Gniezno, Lublin, etc. for the moment), in particular, needs to have its Polish name included. I am not asking this hostilely either. I'm looking at its history and demographics, and puzzled. Dr. Dan 15:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC) p.s. I think you are right about the above Oldest Pagans.
To the Folks at 137, did you read my above remarks? Since you say this information is beneficial and useful to you, should I edit the English Wikipedia and add Rzym to the article on Rome, instead of you linking up to the Polish article on Rome? Lysy, I moved these questions to this article, first, because you didn't answer the question entirely. Secondly, you also had a question in your answer. Thirdly, since the question concerns Panevezys, I thought the discussion should be moved off of our talk pages to the subject at hand, so others could weigh in. Does this seem unreasonable? I hope not? In any case, I did it without any ulterior motives. Now to your latest comment about Panevezys having a Polish historical origin (even though you agree it has never been part of Poland). Can you tell me where you get this "historical origin", from? Thank you. Dr. Dan 21:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Lysy, I don't "moan" and I don't "groan". Reinventing the wheel is one thing. Making a better wheel, is progressive and desirable. If a consensus has been reached in the past without me, please don't suggest that my input is somehow counter productive. Don't avoid the question or issue at hand by ignoring it, and bringing in metaphors and parables instead. If you need more examples of what I perceieve to be a Double Standard, I can and will do so. In the mean time please answer the question about the Polish origin of the city's name. Still waiting. Dr. Dan 22:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Two things, first, some cities and towns in Lithuania today (those occupied after WW I, recovered after WW II), which were part of Poland, should or can have the Polish equivalent name somewhere in parenthesis. That doesn't irritate me. As for Gdansk and Leipzig, the analogy is Wilno and Panevezys. (Polish association/non-Polish association). It's the many Polish named towns in the English Wikipedia, without the association, that I am questioning. Those like Panevezys, or Kaunas, which do not. As for "Po+Niewiez" explaining the historical Polish origins of the name. As you know, po is a prefix in your example in Polish. What you probably don't know, however, is that pa is a prefix in the Lithuanian language. Second, it never ceases to amaze me, to read a statement like "You're not trying to suggest that the town was named in Lithuanian language (sic) in 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, are you?" What kind of an absurd question is that? Are you suggesting that the Lithuanian language suddenly sprung up in the later part of the 19th century (or yesterday), and Lithuanians did not have names for geographical locations that they lived in. Or for that matter, names for geographical locations that they did not live in? That they, like in Jerzy Hoffman's movies, went around in bear skins humming pagan dirges? Let me get this off my chest, it's precisely that kind of psedo-intellectual arrogance that destroyed the Rzeczpospolita back in the day. During my stay in Poland, I saw it over and over again. It was surprising, since it was a (nieby) "socialist" country, at the time. Dr. Dan 03:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Dr Dan, Hi! Yes I had read your Rome/Rzym point, didn't realise it was serious, very sorry. Fair point, I suppose: you could try the addition and see what the consensus is (I wonder how many other names were given to Rome, could be a valid Wiki list). My assumption is that, given the history of eastern Europe, I am likely to find Polish and Lithuanian and other equivalents for places in English language history documents (unlike Rzym). Kaunas/ Kauen/ Kowno/ Kovno/ Каунас is an example. Folks at 137 08:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Here are numerous English language sources which use "Poniewiez" (yes, more than 10%): [1]. radek ( talk) 18:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Folks at 137, thank you again for your imput. Less a mistaken conception occur, that I have something against Polish names exclusively, your point about Kaunas, brings me to another issue. I removed all of the "foreign" names, except Russian ( Kaunas has a longer historical association with Russia ). The German, Kauen, in particular, was irritating. The Germans briefly occupied Kaunas in WWI, and the Nazi invasion brought them back for a little over three years in WWII. Like this necessitates the inclusion of the "German" name of a city, that's almost a thousand years old? Please! (You really need to know the German or Latvian name, go to the German or Latvian link, it's there). To see Gotenhafen as a name of Gdynia, borders on lunacy. Sure, put it in as a historical footnote if needed, but not as a "name" in the header of the English Wikipedia article. Dr. Dan 17:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the Lingua Franca insertion (which I am not disputing). Lysy, how about the hundreds of thousands or more (maybe over a few million), of Lithuanian peasants, did they have to relearn an almost foreign language? Or was it the Polonized Lithuanian szlachta, that had to relearn it. Like Narutowicz's brother maybe? Whether these peasants could read or write, does not mean they couldn't speak. Is there a possibility that the Lithuanian name Panevėźys, became polonized, instead of the reverse? You know, like Hirschberg and Jelenia Góra. Dr. Dan 17:28, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
And the influence and significance of Lithuania in the GDL? What about it? Would you agree that Luiblinas can and should be added to the Lublin article in the English Wikipedia especially since the Union of Lublin was signed there? Lysy, how about you? Are you prepared to add it to inform our readers, like the Folks at 177? Or the Folks at 177, do they merely like to get the information rather than add to it? Or will the "Double Standard", again prevail. Dr. Dan 22:28, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I already have, but Balcer reverted it. One of the reasons for my claim of a "Double Standard". So, Lysy, why don't you help me, an add it yourself. That way, the Folks at 177, can get the necessary and appreciated information without have to go to the Lithuanian link. Can I count on you? Dr. Dan 23:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC) p.s. Then you can finally go on your much needed Wiki Break.
I can definitely agree, Balcer, and hard as it is to believe for some, that's my point. If there cannot be an equal treatment or even-handedness in these namings, then they need not be included in the English version of Wikipedia. BTW, the list of names in the Wroclaw article of Italian and Lithuanian, etc., are further examples of this stupidity taken to even more absurd extremes. If you need to know the name for Wroclaw in Portugese, go to the Portugese link or create one. Dr. Dan 00:10, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Lysy, you are a real peach. We seem to come up with a friendly solution to the problem with Balcer and others. You include a tacit agreement, and conclude your remarks with "Peace". Then you return to the Panevezys article, to include the Yiddish name in the header. We know there were lots of Jews in the PLC, this is no longer the case. The demographics of the population in the 20th century are in the article. I have no doubt that you decided to add the Yiddish name to continue the fracas, nothing more. Due to the overwhelming pre-WWII Jewish population in Poland, I'm sure you won't object to my including the Yiddish names to every Polish city and town in the English Wikipedia. Sort of in the "Spirit of Lysy" and for the benefit of English speaking readers to know this important information. Sound good? Peace to you too. Dr. Dan 14:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Peace, Lysy, like you said, Peace. Dr. Dan 20:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Can the "Lithuanian Chicago" be explained in the article ? Where is the similarity between the two ? -- Lysy talk 21:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Karaites, yes. It is well documented, but not 14th, but 15th century. Where do this fairy tale "Community of Poles in the area as early as 14th century" come from? Žemėpatis ( talk) 03:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
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I don't see any reason why polish name should be included for this given city - I'd understand if the name was totally different, but not in this case then name is the same, just in different alphabet. If polish name is included, does it mean names in all world languages should be included?? Knutux 13:20, 2004 Jun 27 (UTC)
The article says "Inhabitants of Panevėžys area were the oldest pagans in Europe." If read literally, this says that there were no pagans in Europe before those inhabitants, which is clearly nonsense. I would change it, but I'm not clear what it is supposed to mean: does the writer mean 'among the last pagans in Europe to be Christianised'?
Lysy, you asked me if the addition of the Polish name in the article, "bothered me" on your talk page. Bothered me is too strong of a word, irritates me, is a better choice. This irritation is the result of a definite Double Standard, being applied to former cities of the Lithuanian-Polish Commonwealth. If the purpose is to inform or educate English speaking readers of Wikipedia, that would be good, but I'm not sure that this is the reason it's being done. Panevezys was never part of Poland. I added the Lithuanian name for Gniezno, Molobo, reverted it, calling it "irrelevant", Kernavė, however has "relevantly" (sic) been edited with it's Polish name added by Halibutt and re-added by you. I added the Lithuanian name for Lublin, Balcer removed it, because it is "liguistically not connected to Poland". This, in spite of its historical, ( Union of Lublin), association with Lithuania. My actual solution is very simple, if an English speaking Wikipedian wants to know what the Polish name for Rome is, he or she can search for Rome. They can then link to the Polish article and see that it's Rzym. No need to add Rzym in parenthesis in the English version. Back to Panevezys, there is a Polish article about the city. The English speaking Wikipedian can link to the Polish article if they need to know the Polish name of the city. If this doesn't seem fair or make sense, please explain why Panevezys (forget Gniezno, Lublin, etc. for the moment), in particular, needs to have its Polish name included. I am not asking this hostilely either. I'm looking at its history and demographics, and puzzled. Dr. Dan 15:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC) p.s. I think you are right about the above Oldest Pagans.
To the Folks at 137, did you read my above remarks? Since you say this information is beneficial and useful to you, should I edit the English Wikipedia and add Rzym to the article on Rome, instead of you linking up to the Polish article on Rome? Lysy, I moved these questions to this article, first, because you didn't answer the question entirely. Secondly, you also had a question in your answer. Thirdly, since the question concerns Panevezys, I thought the discussion should be moved off of our talk pages to the subject at hand, so others could weigh in. Does this seem unreasonable? I hope not? In any case, I did it without any ulterior motives. Now to your latest comment about Panevezys having a Polish historical origin (even though you agree it has never been part of Poland). Can you tell me where you get this "historical origin", from? Thank you. Dr. Dan 21:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Lysy, I don't "moan" and I don't "groan". Reinventing the wheel is one thing. Making a better wheel, is progressive and desirable. If a consensus has been reached in the past without me, please don't suggest that my input is somehow counter productive. Don't avoid the question or issue at hand by ignoring it, and bringing in metaphors and parables instead. If you need more examples of what I perceieve to be a Double Standard, I can and will do so. In the mean time please answer the question about the Polish origin of the city's name. Still waiting. Dr. Dan 22:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Two things, first, some cities and towns in Lithuania today (those occupied after WW I, recovered after WW II), which were part of Poland, should or can have the Polish equivalent name somewhere in parenthesis. That doesn't irritate me. As for Gdansk and Leipzig, the analogy is Wilno and Panevezys. (Polish association/non-Polish association). It's the many Polish named towns in the English Wikipedia, without the association, that I am questioning. Those like Panevezys, or Kaunas, which do not. As for "Po+Niewiez" explaining the historical Polish origins of the name. As you know, po is a prefix in your example in Polish. What you probably don't know, however, is that pa is a prefix in the Lithuanian language. Second, it never ceases to amaze me, to read a statement like "You're not trying to suggest that the town was named in Lithuanian language (sic) in 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, are you?" What kind of an absurd question is that? Are you suggesting that the Lithuanian language suddenly sprung up in the later part of the 19th century (or yesterday), and Lithuanians did not have names for geographical locations that they lived in. Or for that matter, names for geographical locations that they did not live in? That they, like in Jerzy Hoffman's movies, went around in bear skins humming pagan dirges? Let me get this off my chest, it's precisely that kind of psedo-intellectual arrogance that destroyed the Rzeczpospolita back in the day. During my stay in Poland, I saw it over and over again. It was surprising, since it was a (nieby) "socialist" country, at the time. Dr. Dan 03:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Dr Dan, Hi! Yes I had read your Rome/Rzym point, didn't realise it was serious, very sorry. Fair point, I suppose: you could try the addition and see what the consensus is (I wonder how many other names were given to Rome, could be a valid Wiki list). My assumption is that, given the history of eastern Europe, I am likely to find Polish and Lithuanian and other equivalents for places in English language history documents (unlike Rzym). Kaunas/ Kauen/ Kowno/ Kovno/ Каунас is an example. Folks at 137 08:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Here are numerous English language sources which use "Poniewiez" (yes, more than 10%): [1]. radek ( talk) 18:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Folks at 137, thank you again for your imput. Less a mistaken conception occur, that I have something against Polish names exclusively, your point about Kaunas, brings me to another issue. I removed all of the "foreign" names, except Russian ( Kaunas has a longer historical association with Russia ). The German, Kauen, in particular, was irritating. The Germans briefly occupied Kaunas in WWI, and the Nazi invasion brought them back for a little over three years in WWII. Like this necessitates the inclusion of the "German" name of a city, that's almost a thousand years old? Please! (You really need to know the German or Latvian name, go to the German or Latvian link, it's there). To see Gotenhafen as a name of Gdynia, borders on lunacy. Sure, put it in as a historical footnote if needed, but not as a "name" in the header of the English Wikipedia article. Dr. Dan 17:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the Lingua Franca insertion (which I am not disputing). Lysy, how about the hundreds of thousands or more (maybe over a few million), of Lithuanian peasants, did they have to relearn an almost foreign language? Or was it the Polonized Lithuanian szlachta, that had to relearn it. Like Narutowicz's brother maybe? Whether these peasants could read or write, does not mean they couldn't speak. Is there a possibility that the Lithuanian name Panevėźys, became polonized, instead of the reverse? You know, like Hirschberg and Jelenia Góra. Dr. Dan 17:28, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
And the influence and significance of Lithuania in the GDL? What about it? Would you agree that Luiblinas can and should be added to the Lublin article in the English Wikipedia especially since the Union of Lublin was signed there? Lysy, how about you? Are you prepared to add it to inform our readers, like the Folks at 177? Or the Folks at 177, do they merely like to get the information rather than add to it? Or will the "Double Standard", again prevail. Dr. Dan 22:28, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I already have, but Balcer reverted it. One of the reasons for my claim of a "Double Standard". So, Lysy, why don't you help me, an add it yourself. That way, the Folks at 177, can get the necessary and appreciated information without have to go to the Lithuanian link. Can I count on you? Dr. Dan 23:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC) p.s. Then you can finally go on your much needed Wiki Break.
I can definitely agree, Balcer, and hard as it is to believe for some, that's my point. If there cannot be an equal treatment or even-handedness in these namings, then they need not be included in the English version of Wikipedia. BTW, the list of names in the Wroclaw article of Italian and Lithuanian, etc., are further examples of this stupidity taken to even more absurd extremes. If you need to know the name for Wroclaw in Portugese, go to the Portugese link or create one. Dr. Dan 00:10, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Lysy, you are a real peach. We seem to come up with a friendly solution to the problem with Balcer and others. You include a tacit agreement, and conclude your remarks with "Peace". Then you return to the Panevezys article, to include the Yiddish name in the header. We know there were lots of Jews in the PLC, this is no longer the case. The demographics of the population in the 20th century are in the article. I have no doubt that you decided to add the Yiddish name to continue the fracas, nothing more. Due to the overwhelming pre-WWII Jewish population in Poland, I'm sure you won't object to my including the Yiddish names to every Polish city and town in the English Wikipedia. Sort of in the "Spirit of Lysy" and for the benefit of English speaking readers to know this important information. Sound good? Peace to you too. Dr. Dan 14:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Peace, Lysy, like you said, Peace. Dr. Dan 20:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Can the "Lithuanian Chicago" be explained in the article ? Where is the similarity between the two ? -- Lysy talk 21:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Karaites, yes. It is well documented, but not 14th, but 15th century. Where do this fairy tale "Community of Poles in the area as early as 14th century" come from? Žemėpatis ( talk) 03:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
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