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This talk page is for the discussion of the 5 Ms. I have noted that P.R. Sarkar in his spiritual alter ego mentioned that the 5 Ms have dual meaning. I believe this is significant in the interpretation of tantra as not just a physical practice, but rather as a spiritual practice being misunderstood throughout the ages. I haven't found any other interpretations of the 5Ms than Ananadamurti's own, so I welcome furter comments. cJ -- Cracker jack 14:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Ekajati for making the referencing better! Cracker jack 22:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
It is quite clear that Wikipedia is not well-placed to discuss tantra, for various reasons. This article, and articles that link to it, do not clarify, even, whether they relate to Hindu or Buddhist tantra. This seems to be a fundamental error.
Linkified parched grain. Hope the article speaks of the same ingredient.-- Connection 20:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Why it is important in the Indian culture?
This article needs expansion, I'll try to update it from what I know from Rawson (mostly his book "The Art of Tantra"). -- Snowgrouse 06:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Can we have some discussion about which authors are considered notable for purposes of inclusion in this article? I am unfamiliar with this one that was just added, which does not mean much, but I am wondering how long the list will become if we begin adding to the section on interpretations in this way. Buddhipriya 20:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Parking disputed content here:
The contemporary writer Samael Aun Weor connects the five M's to the five tattvas or elements and refers to the "intelligent enjoyment" of them as the "Pancatattva Ritual". Regarding the purpose of this ritual he writes:
The wonderful sparks of Maha-Kundalini are found within all the properties of Nature's five elements. We urgently need to turn these sparks into flames within ourselves. Unquestionably, even when the hidden Inner Divinity is not found within the intellectual animal mistakenly called human being, it consciously extends its innermost energy through the ritual Pancatattwa with the clear purpose of helping the Essence in the process of awakening... [1]
The connection of the five M's with the five elements is made in the following way: "With respect to the organic subject, ether is encountered as being closely related to woman or to sexuality (Maithuna); air to wine (Madya); fire to meat (Mamsa); water to fish (Matsya) and earth to grains (Mudra)". [1] It should be noted that the "wine" of Madya should always be unfermented; in other words, grape juice.
He writes that it is important to neither eat too much nor to little of the tattvas in order to be able to gain control over them. Regarding Mamsa, for example, he says this:
By what method or manner can we acquire the miraculous igneous powers of the Tejas Tattwa if we make the mistake of renouncing the carnivorous element? Unfortunately, the human multitude either becomes radically vegetarian or turns almost cannibalistic. [1]
The type of sexual intercourse that Maithuna refers to is White Tantra, in which the sexual energy instead of being expelled through the orgasm is transmuted into ojas. [2]
--Material moved from article on basis of non-notability of author. Buddhipriya 07:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Should Panchatattva (Tantra) be merged with this article? I know very little of this subject, but from recent comments it appears the two may be different titles for the same thing? Gouranga(UK) 14:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Followers of this secret tradition broke caste taboos not only by associating with outcastes, but in accepting a sacred five-fold sacrament of meat, wine, fish, bread and sexual intercourse. This inner tradition was and is a gnostic one, in that it teaches a secret knowledge which leads to a direct experience of God. But unlike the Gnostic sects of Rome and Alexandria, the purpose of Tantra is not so much illumination as release: moksa, freedom from the cycle of endless birth, death and rebirth. In this it is uniquely Indian.
Some Tantric schools, the so-called daksinachari, or "followers of the right-hand path," do not accept the five sacraments in their literal forms. Instead, madya, wine, is seen as symbolic of the knowledge that intoxicates; mamsa, meat, is taken to signify the mastery of speech; matsya, fish, stands for the currents of energy that flow through the body; mudra, parched grain, symbolizes the intense concentration of yogic meditation; while maithuna, the sexual act, is transformed into a meditation on the primal act of creation.
In other circles, the meat, wine, fish and ritual sex were replaced, not with intellectual concepts, but by simple substitutes which were considered harmless from the karmic point of view. Thus wine was often replaced by honey, cow's milk or coconut water; meat by garlic or ginger; fish by buffalo's or sheep's milk; and the sexual act by roasted fruits and shoots.
There can be no doubt, however, that in many circles, the real forms of the sacraments were enjoyed. Well-respected Tantras, like the Kularnava-tantra, emphasize that those who take part in the panchamakara ritual mainly for sexual pleasure or out of mere hedonism only defeat themselves. The senses are to be conquered by leaving nothing unexperienced. [3]
B9 hummingbird hovering ( talk • contribs) 15:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This talk page is for the discussion of the 5 Ms. I have noted that P.R. Sarkar in his spiritual alter ego mentioned that the 5 Ms have dual meaning. I believe this is significant in the interpretation of tantra as not just a physical practice, but rather as a spiritual practice being misunderstood throughout the ages. I haven't found any other interpretations of the 5Ms than Ananadamurti's own, so I welcome furter comments. cJ -- Cracker jack 14:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Ekajati for making the referencing better! Cracker jack 22:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
It is quite clear that Wikipedia is not well-placed to discuss tantra, for various reasons. This article, and articles that link to it, do not clarify, even, whether they relate to Hindu or Buddhist tantra. This seems to be a fundamental error.
Linkified parched grain. Hope the article speaks of the same ingredient.-- Connection 20:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Why it is important in the Indian culture?
This article needs expansion, I'll try to update it from what I know from Rawson (mostly his book "The Art of Tantra"). -- Snowgrouse 06:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Can we have some discussion about which authors are considered notable for purposes of inclusion in this article? I am unfamiliar with this one that was just added, which does not mean much, but I am wondering how long the list will become if we begin adding to the section on interpretations in this way. Buddhipriya 20:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Parking disputed content here:
The contemporary writer Samael Aun Weor connects the five M's to the five tattvas or elements and refers to the "intelligent enjoyment" of them as the "Pancatattva Ritual". Regarding the purpose of this ritual he writes:
The wonderful sparks of Maha-Kundalini are found within all the properties of Nature's five elements. We urgently need to turn these sparks into flames within ourselves. Unquestionably, even when the hidden Inner Divinity is not found within the intellectual animal mistakenly called human being, it consciously extends its innermost energy through the ritual Pancatattwa with the clear purpose of helping the Essence in the process of awakening... [1]
The connection of the five M's with the five elements is made in the following way: "With respect to the organic subject, ether is encountered as being closely related to woman or to sexuality (Maithuna); air to wine (Madya); fire to meat (Mamsa); water to fish (Matsya) and earth to grains (Mudra)". [1] It should be noted that the "wine" of Madya should always be unfermented; in other words, grape juice.
He writes that it is important to neither eat too much nor to little of the tattvas in order to be able to gain control over them. Regarding Mamsa, for example, he says this:
By what method or manner can we acquire the miraculous igneous powers of the Tejas Tattwa if we make the mistake of renouncing the carnivorous element? Unfortunately, the human multitude either becomes radically vegetarian or turns almost cannibalistic. [1]
The type of sexual intercourse that Maithuna refers to is White Tantra, in which the sexual energy instead of being expelled through the orgasm is transmuted into ojas. [2]
--Material moved from article on basis of non-notability of author. Buddhipriya 07:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Should Panchatattva (Tantra) be merged with this article? I know very little of this subject, but from recent comments it appears the two may be different titles for the same thing? Gouranga(UK) 14:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Followers of this secret tradition broke caste taboos not only by associating with outcastes, but in accepting a sacred five-fold sacrament of meat, wine, fish, bread and sexual intercourse. This inner tradition was and is a gnostic one, in that it teaches a secret knowledge which leads to a direct experience of God. But unlike the Gnostic sects of Rome and Alexandria, the purpose of Tantra is not so much illumination as release: moksa, freedom from the cycle of endless birth, death and rebirth. In this it is uniquely Indian.
Some Tantric schools, the so-called daksinachari, or "followers of the right-hand path," do not accept the five sacraments in their literal forms. Instead, madya, wine, is seen as symbolic of the knowledge that intoxicates; mamsa, meat, is taken to signify the mastery of speech; matsya, fish, stands for the currents of energy that flow through the body; mudra, parched grain, symbolizes the intense concentration of yogic meditation; while maithuna, the sexual act, is transformed into a meditation on the primal act of creation.
In other circles, the meat, wine, fish and ritual sex were replaced, not with intellectual concepts, but by simple substitutes which were considered harmless from the karmic point of view. Thus wine was often replaced by honey, cow's milk or coconut water; meat by garlic or ginger; fish by buffalo's or sheep's milk; and the sexual act by roasted fruits and shoots.
There can be no doubt, however, that in many circles, the real forms of the sacraments were enjoyed. Well-respected Tantras, like the Kularnava-tantra, emphasize that those who take part in the panchamakara ritual mainly for sexual pleasure or out of mere hedonism only defeat themselves. The senses are to be conquered by leaving nothing unexperienced. [3]
B9 hummingbird hovering ( talk • contribs) 15:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)