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"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".
- by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976 ...
"The Arab streets are curiously deserted and, ardently following the poor example of the more moneyed class there has been an exodus from Jerusalem too, though not to the same extent as in Jaffa and Haifa."
- London Times, May 5, 1948
"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948
"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948
"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949
"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183
"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25
The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31
I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948
The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949
We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. [b]The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said[/b], quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952
....
"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954 [/b]
"The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war."
- General Glubb Pasha, in the London Daily Mail on August 12, 1948
"[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities guaranteed their safety and rights as citizens of Israel."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, according to Rev. Karl Baehr, Executive Secretary of the American Christian Palestine Committee, New York Herald Tribune, June 30, 1949
"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did."
- Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14
"the military and civil authorities and the Jewish representative expressed their profound regret at this grave decision [to evacuate]. The [Jewish] Mayor of Haifa made a passionate appeal to the delegation to reconsider its decision"
- The Arab National Committee of Haifa, told to the Arab League, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963
.......
"The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States' opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously, and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs. ...The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some thirty thousand people, chiefly well-to-do-families."
- Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948
"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return."
- Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387
"Since 1948 it is We who demanded the return of refugees... while it is We who made them to leave...
We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave...
We have rendered them dispossessed...
We have accustomed them to begging...
We have participated in lowering their moral and social level...
Then WE exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of Political purposes..."
- Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war [note: same person as above]
"As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property."
- bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957
One morning in April 1948, Dr. Jamal woke us to say that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), led by the Husseinis, had warned Arab residents of Talbieh to leave immediately. The understanding was that the residents would be able to return as conquerors as soon as the Arab forces had thrown the Jews out. Dr. Jamal made the point repeatedly that he was leaving because of the AHC's threats, not because of the Jews, and that he and his frail wife had no alternative but to go.
Commentary Magazine -- January 2000
Source: Peace Encyclopedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.185.23 ( talk) 23:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Go read some serious scholarly works instead of spouting old hasbara. The actual debate by contemporary historians - after plenty of previously government sources became available - is whether or not Israel (before that the Haganah and BG) had mandated such a policy on a national or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.158.79.102 ( talk) 20:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
What I think it is is that you have Benny Morris, and he discovered more as he went along, has his way of interpreting things, the problem is that others try to interpret it for him. I think the mistake he made was to write books, make a ton of money, without a complete picture. With regard to the quotes above, I think that the problem is the Arab archives are CLOSED. No one can see them on this topic the way Morris sees Israel, US and British things. The quotes above to represent something, especially when they seem to take such a direct and overt responsibility for the problem. Tallicfan20 ( talk) 14:07, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
The Palestinian refugee problem is noted as one of the more pressing refugee problems in the world, due to the tremendous duration of time and the number of people involved. It would be helpful if a table of numbers of current refugees, living in different countries, in the West Bank, Gaza etc, were made so the gravity of the topic can be easily understood.
For instance, in the later part of the article, some numbers are given, such as the 500,000 Palestinians residing in Saudi Arabia. But then in the section under Lebanon, there are no numbers .
If this information is elsewhere, then can a wikilink be placed somewhere? Wilgamesh 05:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Are there any exact figures for how many people are left of the ones who fled six decades ago, and how many people are descended from those who fled?// Big Adamsky 06:23, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
As Ilan Pappe writes in A History of Modern Palestine, a third of Palestine's Arabs had been evicted before the Arab states invaded in May 1948. Charles Glass, London Review of Books 24 Jun 04 [3]
Three of the primary reasons that people object to a Palestinian "Right of Return" have not been listed here. Specifically they are
1) The General Assembly resolution says "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours" should be allowed back. Returning home is predicated on wishing to live at peace, and Israelis see no evidence that Palestinian refugees wish to live at peace with them. 2) In any event General Assembly resolutions are non-binding. 3) The actual refugees wishing to "return home" number only a small fraction of the total number of Palestinians now classed as refugees, at most 10%; the other over 90% cannot be said to be returning. Jayjg 20:26, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
1) is fine. 2) is not precisely an objection, but may be relevant. 3) strikes me as completely irrelevant, even if reliable statistics could be found on who wants to return and who does not; a right does not have to be exercised by all those who have it (not everybody exercises their right to free speech, or trial by jury, for instance.) - Mustafaa 00:36, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
About Libya's offer: Saddam Hussein also made an offer like that. I don't think there were many takers. I can't remember any details so I'm not putting anything into the article. -- Zero 04:48, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Interesting - I hadn't heard about that one.
Can you source "Libyan Jews... point out the lack of human rights, religious freedoms, and democracy in Libya that make such an offer highy unattractive"? I came across no such claims being made by Libyan Jews, though commenting on the lack of democracy in Libya is like commenting about the lack of oxygen on the Moon. - Mustafaa 01:55, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What's so specious about the offer? Everything I know about Qaddafi indicates he means it, just as it indicates that they'd be stupid to accept it. Unlike any other Arab leader, he's quite simple: he almost always means what he says, though what he says is almost always breathtakingly stupid. - Mustafaa 22:23, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I don't think Saddam Hussein's similar offer was specious either. What he was hoping for was a handful of returning Jews who would appear shaking his hand on TV and generally give him a nice propaganda event with minimal cost. The offer would have been quickly modified if a substantial number of Jews wanted to return to Iraq and get their property back. -- Zero 08:36, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As far as I know, there are many Palestinian refugees (or descendants) with degrees forming part of the liberal professionals in the Persian Gulf and even Europe. Doctors, architects, journalists,... Probably they are those outside refugee camps. However, could you make a list of famous Palestinian refugees?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_Palestinians —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
74.118.94.165 (
talk)
16:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I assume that neither this nor Palestinian exodus deal with recent Palestine emigrants. I have read that the Catholic church is concerned that the land of Jesus could remain without Christians, since the decreasing Palestine Christians are better received than Muslims in Western countries and feel increasingly uneasy along Muslim Palestinians and Israelis.
Palestinian Christians have been suffering marked at the hands of their Arab brethern who have a saying "first the saturday people, then the sunday people"....when the saturday people are stiff-necked and resist, the sunday people made to suffer by their Arab brethern. [4] [5] [6] Lance6Wins 18:39, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I suggest you talk to Joseph E. Saad - the only Palestinian Christian on Wikipedia - about this, if he hasn't given up yet. However, if the many Christians fleeing Palestine are added, so should be the many Muslims doing the same. It's not much fun living under occupation, and many people prefer to get out if they get a chance. - Mustafaa 00:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The issue was a key factor in the collapse of peace talks in 2000. President Bush last April publicly embraced Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's position that refugees be allowed into any new Palestinian state but not into Israel.
"We promise that we will not rest until the right of return of our people is achieved and the tragedy of our diaspora ends," Abbas told a session of parliament held to mourn Arafat, who died of an undisclosed illness in France on Nov. 11. [9]
Please add. Lance6Wins 18:39, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please provide exact Bush quote. - Mustafaa 14:28, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Cool. Sadly, I don't believe Abbas, but I've added a mention of his position in case he does come out on top. The Bush quote probably belongs in one of the more general peace process pages; to put it here would require a whole new section on political participants' views, which would be constantly in need of updating. - Mustafaa 15:57, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The 911 attacks are not part of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and if that's what Alberuni is saying, he's wrong. Other pages' edit wars have little to do with this page... I'm not dismissing the sentence as irrelevant - merely noting that to make a place for it here would take a significant amount of work (namely, summarizing the positions of at least the major political organizations participating in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) I'm not averse to that work being done - or, indeed, to doing that work at some point - but it has not yet been done. - Mustafaa 00:01, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The article says the refugees "were not able to return home". That is true for most, but certainly not all refugees. Israel offered to allow 100,000 to return (including 35,000 that were in the process of returning), but the Arab states refused to negotiate with Israel so as not to give it "legitimacy". Palestine Conciliation Commission, Fourth Progress Report, A/922, 22 September 1949: "Subject to these conditions, the Government of Israel would be prepared to accept the return to Israel in its present limits of 100,000 refugees, in addition to the total Arab population existing at the end of the hostilities (including those who have already returned since then), thus increasing the total number of that Population to a maximum of 250,000. This repatriation would form part of a general plan for resettlement of refugees which would be established by a special organ to be created for the purpose by the United Nations." [11] "This number would have included some 35,000 refugees whose return had already been negotiated and was underway ". [12]. I think this information should be included. Jayjg 16:16, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree, but we need to find out more first about these 35,000. What basis were they selected on? Did they actually return or not (the wording seems ambiguous)? - Mustafaa 18:48, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
They were selected on the basis of family re-unification, and the wording is slightly ambiguous, though other sources are more explicit:
In 1949, Israel offered to admit 100,000 Arab refugees, with the understanding that their repatriation would be linked to meaningful peace negotiations. Although 35,000 Arabs eventually returned under a family reunification plan, further implementation of the offer was suspended in the 1950's, after it became clear that the Arab states steadfastly refused to consider Israel's peace overtures, preferring instead to maintain a state of war with and economic boycott against Israel. [13]
Also, from the original link:
Notably, from the early 1950s until 1967, Israel maintained a family reunification program under which it claims that around 40–50,000 refugees returned to Israel; several additional thousands returned between 1967 and 1994. And since the beginning of the Oslo process, Israel has collaborated in the de facto “return” to the Palestinian authority of thousands of 1948 refugees: PLO political figures and security forces, and their families. If return is defined as applying to “mandatory Palestine,” this may enable both Palestinians and Israelis to take satisfaction in the exercise of a return to the eventual Palestinian state alone. But in general, Israel, in keeping with its narrative, has preferred to avoid taking political initiatives in the refugee issue.
The principal known Israeli initiative took place in the summer of 1949. Under pressure from the US, and in view of Arab refusal (at the Lausanne Conference) to discuss agreed borders until the refugee issue had been resolved, the Ben Gurion government agreed to absorb 100,000 refugees. This number would have included some 35,000 refugees whose return had already been negotiated and was underway. Israel’s decision was made conditional upon Arab agreement, at Lausanne, to a comprehensive peace, including resettlement of the remaining refugees in Arab countries. Discussion within the Israeli government at the time also touched upon the possibility of absorbing a larger number of refugees, on condition that the Gaza Strip (with some of its refugee population) would be transferred from Egyptian to Israeli control, thereby improving Israel’s military security situation vis-à-vis Egypt. Ultimately the Arabs rejected the Israeli offer, after which Israel retracted it.
Jayjg 19:13, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
One other point to check: the article currently says "During the period mid-1948-53 between 30,000 and 90,000 refugees made their way from their countries of exile to resettle in their former villages or in other Israeli Arab villages (contrary to Israeli law.)" Was this figure meant to include these family reunifications (in which case the parenthetical remark is partly wrong) or not? - Mustafaa 23:56, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Oh. Never mind - the quote is in Talk archives: "(Morris, p39) During the period mid-1948-53 between 30,000 and 90,000 refugees made their way illegally from their countries of exile to resettle in their former villages or in other Israeli Arab villages." Thank you Zero, as so often. - Mustafaa 23:58, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I propose a slight modification to your text, as follows:
These refugees, the great majority of whom had lived there for generations, were generally not able to return home. In 1950, according to UNRWA, they numbered 914,000. During the period mid-1948-53 between 30,000 and 90,000 refugees (according to Benny Morris) made their way from their countries of exile to resettle in their former villages or in other Israeli Arab villages (contrary to Israeli law); some 35,000 were let in legally under a family reunification agreement. In 1949, Israel offered to let in up to 65,000 more as part of a proposed deal with the surrounding Arab countries, but they rejected it, and Israel withdrew the proposal in 1950.
I think this is more accurate, and slightly better gramatically. Thoughts? Jayjg 17:03, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Looks fine. - Mustafaa 17:16, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A few things are not quite right here. The '100,000 offer' that Israel made at the Lausanne conference was supposed to consist of (1) 25,000 "illegal immigrants", (2) 10,000 persons under the family reunification scheme, (3) 65,000 others. The 25,000 figure was the one being claimed by the Israeli government at that time. It might be correct but there is no way to check it. An Arab who left their village, went to the West Bank, then returned to their village was an illegal immigrant according to Israel, but such people were indistinguishable from those who stayed in their village all along. Unless, of course, their village no longer existed in which case they would have tried to hide with relatives in another place. Anyway, these people would have tried to hide their history and Israel had a good motive to exaggerate their numbers, so the numbers are very uncertain. The figure of 10,000 was a "projected" number that did not correspond to reality. By the middle of 1951 the total number of such people was still less than 2000 (Israeli govt figures quoted by Morris). (And meanwhile Israel was still expelling Arabs, but that's another story.) The "35,000" ascribed to family reunicification in the article is simply wrong - it is 25,000+10,000 misinterpretted. A good source on the 100,000 offer is the last chapter of Morris (Birth...Revisited). -- Zero 12:39, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Next, it is true that the Arab states rejected the 100,000 offer but there is more to the story. The offer was not made in isolation but had other conditions. For example, it included Israel being allowed to keep all of the land it had occupied in the war. Behind the scenes, the US was trying to press Israel into taking back a much larger number of refugees. There was huge opposition within the Israeli government to taking back any refugees at all (including from Ben Gurion, who for once didn't get is own way). Part of the Israeli preparation for making the offer was to deliberately stir up public opposition to it in Israel; the idea was to impress on the world how difficult it was for Israel to make such an offer and how impossible it would be to offer more. Around this time (I forget the exact chronological order) some of the Arab states were making secret contacts with Israel that offered various deals. For example, in 1949 Syria offered to "immediately sign a peace treaty and not an armistice and immediately exchange ambassadors", and in addition to settle 250,000-500,000 refugees. In return they wanted the international border to run along the Jordan River (note there is only a short stretch relevant to Syria) and through the middle of the Sea of Galilee. According to Israeli documents, Ben Gurion refused to discuss it. This is not necessarily relevant to the current article, but I mention it to show that the Israel-conciliatory, Arab States-intransigent picture of history is largely mythological. -- Zero 12:39, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well I have just read this article through twice, and it seems fine, I am not finding it too biased. A pleasant change, so I wanted to thank those involved, Thank You!
I will seek out some photos as requested. Any ideas on what is needed?
BTW: We were just re-registered as refugees by UNRWA, even though we are Canadian Citizens now. So I guess there is no time limit in terms of length or residency. My children, however, can only be registered by me, when I go back, according to the documents my father obtained when he came back from Jordan last December. Ironically about the same time as when the last revision took place.
Joseph 04:27, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, some were expelled, but the linked article ( Palestinian Exodus) only indicates expulsions after the war started, so as far as I can tell the insertion was inaccurate. Jayjg (talk) 20:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, you're right, I missed that when I read through it. Still, it seems to give a false impression, that there were large numbers of expellees at that time. I'll add in the 1000 figure. Jayjg (talk) 21:14, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, if we're looking for knowledgeable, Zero's the guy. Jayjg (talk) 22:31, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
After the UN partition of Palestine, war was declared on both sides. Most supporters of Israel believe that the Arab countries are responsible for the fact that there were refugees on either side, including areas not part of the Jewish state in the partition plan. They believe that the Arab countries should have absorbed the Arab refugees.
What is this point supposed to mean?
If it means quid pro quo, then its hould be merged with the next one.
Bless sins
11:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I added the note that it has been rumoured that states like Saudi Arabia refuse to grant any Palestinian refugees Saudi citizenship in order to artificially prop up the refugee problem. In all other comparable refugee situations the refugees in question have either been resettled in their home land or settled amongst the host population. It's the most likely reason in my book.
I should like to know why this note was deleted from the article.– Mr Bozo, 21 July, 2006
Stevertigo, your re-write of the intro of this article was highly problematic, because of its POV inclusions and factual errors. For example, you write that The conflict itself began with the influx of Jewish refugees, seeking refuge from The Holocaust within British Mandate of Palestine.; this is both unsourced and factually incorrect, since the conflict began in at least the 1920s, if not earlier, decades before The Holocaust. Continuing, you state The Levant had once been the homeland of Jewish ancestors, the immediate needs for survival met with the religious-based ethnic cause, which melded to become Zionism. Again, unsourced opinion, difficult to understand, and factually incorrect; there was no "melding", and the claim that the "ethnic cause" was "religion based" is dubious, considering that the main proponents were socialist atheists who rejected religion. You continue Zionism sought to provide a home for Jewish refugees by displacing the resident Arab population,; again, POV and factually incorrect - the goal of Zionism was not to displace the resident Arab population. Continuing, you state and was ultimately successful in building Israel as a nation state with an instituted system for limiting the influence of non-Jews., linking to apartheid - it's hard to imagine a more POV claim than Israel created an institutionalize Apartheid state. It's best to write introductions that conform with policy ( WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V) instead. Jayjg (talk) 20:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm astounded you would insert your highly flawed version again, even after the issues were explained to you. I'll just refer you to some articles to start with: 1920 Palestine riots, Jaffa riots, 1929 Palestine riots, Great Uprising - fit those into your "the conflict wasn't Arab-Jewish, and it began with an influx of Jewish refugees from the Holocaust" theory. I believe that you're trying to edit in conformance with policies; however, my impression is that your POV is so deeply entrenched that you honestly don't even understand that it is a POV. Regardless of the cause, any proposed changes are going to have to be well cited here, because so far your edits are mostly pov original research. Jayjg (talk) 00:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin's version | Stevertigo's version |
---|---|
In the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a Palestinian refugee is a
refugee from
Palestine created by the
Palestinian Exodus, which
Palestinians call the Nakba (
Arabic: النكبة, meaning "disaster" or "catastrophe"). The
United Nations definition of a "Palestinian refugee" is a person whose "normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict,"
[1] and their descendants, regardless of whether they reside in areas designated as "refugee camps" or in established, permanent communities.
[2] The number of Palestinian refugees has grown from 711,000 in 1950
[3] to over four million registered with the UN in 2002. |
Palestinian refugee is a non-
Jewish
Arab or
Arabic language-speaking
refugee from the
Palestine region, who, due to the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is living in military-
occupied territories without officially recognized state
citizenship.
The conflict is one driven by the competing
nationalist movements of Jewish and
Arab peoples, which has left the
nation state of
Israel in control of a
state-less and largely ungoverned population of Palestinian Arab
Muslims posessing no official
citizenship.
|
That one caught my eye as well, jpgordon. Again, an astonishing display of one-sided POV so deeply entrenched that it doesn't even recognize it is a POV. Jayjg (talk) 22:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Stevertigo's POV | alternative POV |
---|---|
Both Israel and most of the
Arab League states maintained policies of denying citizenship to the Palestinian refugees or their decendants —Israel due to its desire to maintain ethnic dominance within its small state, and the Arab League as a form of protest against the establishment of Israel. |
Both Israel and most of the Arab League states maintained policies of denying citizenship to the Palestinian refugees or their descendants —Israel due to its concerns about hosting a large population of citizens hostile to its existence, and the Arab League so they could use the refugees as a pawn in their efforts to destroy Israel. |
Stevertigo, while I have my opinions about which statement is more accurate, at least I recognize that both statements are POVs. However, I'm getting the strong impression that you don't; rather, you see the left-hand side as "objective truth", and the right-hand side never even occurs to you as an alternative explanation for events. Jayjg (talk) 22:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Stevertigo's definition | United Nations definition |
---|---|
Palestinian refugee is a non-Jewish Arab or Arabic language-speaking refugee from the Palestine region, who due to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is living in military-occupied territories ..." (no source, my emphasis). |
A "Palestinian refugee" is a person whose "normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict," [5] and their descendants, regardless of whether they reside in areas designated as "refugee camps" or in permanent communities. Around 1.7 million live in Jordan; 400,000 in Lebanon; 400,000 in Syria; 600,000 in the West Bank; and 900,000 in Gaza. [17] (my emphasis) SlimVirgin (talk) 23:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC) |
Stevertigo's definition | United Nations definition |
---|---|
In common usage, a "Palestinian refugee" is a non-Jewish Arab or Arabic language-speaking refugee from the Palestine region, who, as a result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is living without
citizenship in designated military-occupied reservations, as well as within neighboring states.[emf.] The technical definition varies but the one accepted by the United Nations is a person whose "normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict," [6] and their descendants, regardless of whether they reside in areas designated as "refugee camps" or in permanent communities. Around 1.7 million live in Jordan; 400,000 in Lebanon; 400,000 in Syria; 600,000 in the West Bank; and 900,000 in Gaza. Jordan allows citizenship to about half of its 3 million Palestinian residents, and general reference to "refugee" tends to omit this usage. [18] (my emphasis) |
A "Palestinian refugee" is a person whose "normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict," [7] and their descendants, regardless of whether they reside in areas designated as "refugee camps" or in permanent communities. Around 1.7 million live in Jordan; 400,000 in Lebanon; 400,000 in Syria; 600,000 in the West Bank; and 900,000 in Gaza. [19] |
As early as 1840, Lord Palmerston (later to become Prime Minister) wrote:
The document defining Britain's obligations as Mandate power copied the text of the Balfour Declaration concerning the establishment of a Jewish homeland:
|
I'm now kinda confused, perhaps, by all this interpersonal bickering, none of which seems to address the actual questions raised by the various edits. In particular, I haven't received an answer to my question to Steve of last week: [W]hat's the source of your definition as opposed to the UNRWA one? Perhaps you guys should take your disagreement over the precise meaning and hierarchy of our guidelines to some more suitable forum so the rest of us could actually work out whether or not the changes to the definition are appropriate. (And, Steve, it doesn't matter at all who first formulated the policy; you can be proud of having done so, but it doesn't give you more authority regarding its current interpretation.) -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 16:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I recently initiated the renaming of a section into ' UNRWA definition of a "Palestinian refugee" '. Then I noticed the phrase " evolved independently of the UNHCR definition". This leads to two questions:
Will it make sense to make a separate section for the discussion of the definition(s)? `' mikka (t) 21:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I think the "UNRWA definition of a 'Palestinian refugee'" is pretty neutral and NPOV. It displays the facts, the supporters, and the critics. What more can you ask for? -- GHcool 22:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Amoruso 19:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks mate! -- AlmostFree 19:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It is purely witten from an Israeli point of view. "The claim" says it all. Gerash77 08:02, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
according to the article: "The UNRWA also registers as refugees... persons in need of support who first became refugees as a result of the 1967 conflict"
According to a study by Oxfam "Coping Mechanisms: Palestinians in camps in Lebanon Preliminary Field Study Report" refugees that fled the West Bank and Gaza Strip after the 1967 war are not registered with the UNRWA and therefore do not qualify for assistance, even though they live in refugee camps and share the same legal status as those that fled the war in 1948.
Also according to the UNRWA definition of Palestinian refugees:
"Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict... UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948..."
There is no mention of status of those that fled the 1967 war as being registered by the UNRWA.
In the first sentence "a Palestinian refugee is a refugee" and on the refugee page I find the definition: "A refugee is a person seeking asylum in a foreign country in order to escape persecution, war, terrorism, extreme poverty, famines, or natural disaster." Is it persecution these refugees are escaping? What is the nature of the persecution? What happens to those who return or attempt to return? It seems a bit unreal to have this lengthy article without mentioning what they are escaping. And BTW, wouldn't it be helpful to the uninformed reader (our target audience) to say at the beginning that this is about Jews cleansing Palestine of non-Jews in order to set up a Jewish dominated regime? As it is you have to wade through most of the article to find this out. Fourtildas 22:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Material like this is not particularily relevant to an article on Palestinian refugee (in fact, it might look like nasty denial as doesn't belong anywhere on these pages).
Nor is it well sourced - Shmuel Katz is a propagandist first, his credibility as a historian is negligible. He has no qualifications and his work shows no evidence of any historical research. The clip from him that's appeared in this article amply demonstrates why his words don't belong in here, it's a polemic, entirely fact-free:
"The result has been the creation of a large, amorphous mass of names, some of them relating to real people, some of them purely fictitious or relating to persons, long since dead, a minority relating to people without a home as a result of their or their parents' leaving Palestine in 1948, the majority relating to people who, whatever their origins, are now living and working as ordinary citizens but continuing to draw rations and obtaining medical attention at the expense of the world's taxpayers -- all of them comfortably lumped together in official United Nations lists as Arab refugees and vehemently described as "victims of Jewish aggression."
I disagree that it's disproprtionate. Actually, the criticism is much broader and this is a short summary of one of the main points concerning UNRWA. It's perfectly fine as it is. Amoruso 10:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I see Katz being referenced as if he was a regular historian - yet no evidence for it is ever presented. He appears to claim that all the Palestinian refugees left because their own told them to. That's patently untrue, and looks a lot like nasty denial that has no place in here. Furthermore, it's backing for a meaningless propaganda claim, that because some Palestinians left because they were "told to" (5 or 10% by other accounts), therefore they're not entitled to return. The other major contribution I've seen from him is that the Palestinians were "all" (?) recent immigrants, a claim that is both highly unlikely and irrelevant and unpleasant. And it gets worse - when I see portions of his work, it's almost completely fact-free (like the paragraph I quoted above). I've never participated in any form of edit war, and I don't intend to start. But I'm greatly saddened to see tat being published as if it was history. PalestineRemembered 17:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Shmuel Katz is WP:RS and WP:V per google scholar and the fact his book is published on Bantam Books and very popular and respected. Nobody showed anything to contradict that except their own POV and political interests. Amoruso 09:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Who will ban me ? Wikipedia does come first, which is why they'll strip you of your adminstatorship status which is ridicilous, and then ban you for your consistent vandalism of well sourced respected scholar materials like Shmuel Katz. Stop disrupting wikipedia. Google scholar of battleground: [21] and google: [22] end of story. Amoruso 12:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Rrburke. Btw, you should cite Kal Korff's book. I'd assume you didn't just google to try to find a Bantam book that sounds ridicilous ( WP:AGF) but you were terribly mistaken. It's a very good research and one of its conclusion actually is that there were no UFO's in that incident. You cited a good example of a book that did research on this subject and therefore on subjects relating to Roswell he's an excellent source. On subjects relating to the Arab Israeli conflict, Katz is an excellent source. Quite simple. In fact, Kal IS indeed cited quite largely in wikipedia here Roswell UFO incident, feel free to add more citations although it seems his book was published by Prometheus Books and not Bantam books. Amoruso 13:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is this such a dilemma? Why don't we just say "Katz found that..." or "Katz says that..." and have it over with. -- Shamir1 05:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Again, we can just write "Katz says this..." or "Katz says that...", I don't see it as a big deal. His work is widely-read scholarly material. -- Shamir1 03:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
He's quoted in google scholar [27] this link from there says scholar journals which quotes from The Johns Hopkins University Press... I don't know of any binding definition of scholar though nor is it any requirement for him to be for WP:RS which he is, while he has full references for anything. Amoruso 23:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC) ... I found more links to journals who cite Katz [28] [29]: Journal of Palestine Studies, Indiana University Press, Jewish History Amoruso 23:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't Syria included in the "Treatment in Arab countries" section? -- GHcool 22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
A column editiorial from Jewishworldreview is obviously POV and not a scholarly source. Neither is geocities. IF the statements can be cited to scholarly books, works or sites then they can be posted.
Amuroso, I'm sorry I removed the material [30] you reposted. You can clealry see that it was a mistake since i wrote "front page mag not scholarly source". I mean to remove something else, and will do so soon. Bless sins 03:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
i've deleted the following text from the history section. i suspect someone will put it back, but at least i'm registering my views that all of this stuff is irrelevant (and rather pov as well). the vicissitudes of unrwa refugee counts from 50 years ago are simply not encyclopedic. quotes from israeli scholars that unrwa figures are exaggerated don't belong here either. that's what references are for. it's enough to just list the range of quoted figures (400,000 - 900,000 or whatever), with references. Benwing 07:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
deleted text:
By 1950, according to United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), the number of registered refugees was 914,000. [8]. The U.N. Conciliation Commission attributed this discrepancy to, among other things, "duplication of ration cards, addition of persons who have been displaced from area other than Israel-held areas and of persons who, although not displaced, are destitute", and the UNWRA additionally attributed it to the fact that "all births are eagerly announced, the deaths wherever possible are passed over in silence", as well as the fact that "the birthrate is high in any case, a net addition of 30,000 names a year" (the UNWRA figures included descendants of the Palestinian refugees born after the Palestinian exodus up to June, 1951). By June, 1951 the UNWRA had reduced the number of registered refugees to 876,000 after "many false and duplicate registrations weeded out." [9].
However, this number is held to be exaggerated. Yehoshua Porath, a prominent Israeli scholar in the field of Palestinian history wrote in 1986:
I have removed {{ infobox ethnic group}} from this article because, as the name suggests, it's only supposed to be used for ethnic group articles. There's also already an infobox at the Palestinian people article. Khoi khoi 21:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Here are some problems I see with recent edits regarding sources:
Ramallite (talk) 16:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
These were all discussed in the past. The palestinian refugee issue is a controversial issue and we can certainly quote Israel's opinion on the subject. Katz' quote here was supported by Israeli prime ministers explicity by Menachem Begin and others and by content by all others... this is Israel's position. The syrian quote was discussed in the past in palestinian exodus article and affrimed. Amoruso 14:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
This article is blatantly POV and unfit to be in the encyclopedia in its present form. It should either be written in a fashion that is sensitive to the victims, or else it should be deleted.
The first sentence states "which Palestinians call the Nakba". That's equivalent to saying "which Jews call the Holocaust". We should either use the word that the victims are happiest with, or have some very good reason for applying our own.
The second sentence is a definition apparently worded to insult the victims, seeking to deny that most of them had very, very deep roots in this area. (Many of them must have been there for 2000 years, otherwise DNA would be unable to link some roots of the diaspora to the same region).
The third sentence says that the numbers involved are controversial. It's more or less complete red-herring and it's deliberately insulting. It's a favourite tactic of Holocaust deniers.
I've created articles before, but played little or no part in deleting them. I think this article is a good candidate for an AfD, "Article for Deletion". I'd appreciate advice on how to go about it. PalestineRemembered 20:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The argument "non-neutral point of view" (violates WP:NPOV) is often used, but often such articles can be salvaged, so this is not a very strong reason for deletion either.
i'm just wondering out loud on what User:PalestineRemembered would think if i say that the term "al-nakba" is insulting to the state of Israel? as if the creation of israel is "the great disaster". surely the palestinian exodus is a grave event for the palestinian people and i would not degrade or downplay on it like many arabs have done with the holocaust. but history tells us that these titles are very much politically motivated - otherwise, the palestinian exodus from kuwait (400,000 in one week) would have recieved a similar name. to place it in perspective, the jewish exodus from arab lands did not recieve such a polically motivated title. maybe the title fits because the arab refugees from palestine were never well recieved by the other arabs but i don't think that "the victims" point of view should allways be applied - and i give as example the battle of jenin and also place the innocent claims under further inspection with this link also: 1929 Hebron massacre. Jaakobou 00:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
i hope these, together with my previous comment, explain it better why it has an insulting intonation to israel and why it's a politicaly charged term and not an NPOV one (even arab wiki writes down both POVs on this). Jaakobou 10:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Too much undue weight is given in wikipedia to the fantastic myth of palestinian refugee. There are no refugees but justified population transfers have taken place as in every part of the world at the time, the uniqueness of this one is that it was made voluntary by the Arabs in Israel in order to assist the Arab Armies in their war against Israel so that accidentally no brethern will die in the expected genocide. Obviously if this involved any other parties it will no longer be discussed as it's a non-issue and not encyclopedic enough, it's just propaganda. I agree with PalestineRemembered that this article can be merged with Palestinian Exodus. Amoruso 12:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Many articles here on Wikipedia proove that it's impossible to make a NPOV article about something which is somehow political. Even when facts are agreed upon, their meaning can be disputed. Such article would never be accepted by everyone. TFighterPilot 16:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
WHy is there no mention that arabs living in what was then called the palestinian mandate were JORDANIANS. It was only after the birth of the state of Israel that they referred to themselves as palestinians. A seperate culture from the Jordanians. when, in fact, there is no separate culture or anything that distinguishes Jordanians from Jordanians (aka palestinians). As Walid Shoebat has said: "Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?" (shoebat.com) This is left out completely from the article. Meanwhile there are 10-13 "refuge" camps in Jordan. Where Jordanians calling themselves palestinians are camping out in their own country. They've made campgrounds and called them refuge camps all over the arab world. For what purpose? Just to vilify the Jews. Hence why they say a large percentage of "palestinians" are in Jordan. well, Duh, They're Jordanians. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians. Ah you know, except in most Arab lands, they're not allowed to hold government jobs, own land, get a passport, etc.
and Nakba is politically motivated and should not be used. it is clearly a POV that only arab muslims and their supporters use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.25.199 ( talk)
palestinians don't even speak the same dialect as the jordanians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.224.208.210 ( talk) 15:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Why does this article not talk about the reasons for the mass voluntary exodus of Arabs who were in the land of Israel. According to most sources they left because of pressure from big Arab countries and from fear of Jews. The Jews encouraged them to stay and offered them equal citizenship. Nekng ( talk) 07:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
"Voluntary" lacks nuance, esp. in the possibility of a war. Duress is implied. Part of the exodus was anyway forced. Louisar ( talk) 18:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Ya, your right, I should have not used the word "voluntary". Nekng ( talk) 20:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
[35] Zeq ( talk) 13:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed all the external links per Spam policy. There might have been few "worthwhile", but almost all of them were clearly not notable, unreliable, or did meet the necessary standards. I'm not arguing the merit, simply the rules.
Feel free to re-add external links that qualify, but we all know articles rarely need 25+ external links. Comments/suggestions/etc... appreciated! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 23:48, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to keep the current section as-is for now so try to avoid deleting whole paragraphs. As I said in summary, Morris is extremely biased and needs to be balanced off with another historian, or in this case a more expansive introduction paragraph. It needs more, and so I plan on revising in the next week or so when I have time but for now let's leave alone until we can come into a consensus. The last thing we need is an edit war. Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 10:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Also, I think we should delete this sentence: While the specifics of Morris' interpretations have been contested from both sides, many of his arguments, and those of the other Israeli "New Historians," have become widely accepted within Israeli academic and public circle
I've read several of Morris' books and I know for a fact they are widely criticized (and praised) among Israeli academics. The above sentence implies a rather universal/majority acceptance, when that is clearly not the case. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 10:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Do you believe the article is neutral? I surely don't, and I can link this article to another Israel/Palestinian discussion which will hopefully allow other people to voice their opinion. I've explained why there is a POV issue and provided reasonable evidence to back it up. It's not just "I don't like it", there are plenty of other historians in Israel and the World who have a totally different viewpoint than Morris. I'm not arguing a this or that approach, but to infer that Morris is the end all be all fact-maker is rather silly and to deny there needs to be a balance, well....is odd. I'll summarize my basic points because I know if I write a super long argument most people tend to latch on what is easiest to refute and ignore everything else, so don't take it personal:
To start, Benny Morris is a self-proclaimed " New Historian," a moderately controversial stance as it challenges the governmental opinion and activities with the Palestinians since the day of independence. That in itself is reason for a neutrality issue, simply because Morris has aligned himself with what is basically an anti-Israel group of academics/writers. This doesn't mean everything he says is complete and utter bullshit, but if the article is dependent on his analysis most of the time, it is more than reasonable to say there is a neutrality problem. Ok, so now we've established who Morris is, now I'll quote the article.
The concluding sentences are clear and most obvious POV. My challenges are in parenthesis:
Here, Arabs fled fearing atrocities (This is an easy generalization, it paints a broad brush and established and either or situation. Not all "Arabs" fled fearing atrocities, in fact many were unaware until after they actually occurred. Second, what constitutes atrocity? There were several Jewish groups who truly wanted to exterminate all Arabs, but it wasn't the majority and the general consensus was to remove Arabs who posed a threat to the Jewish state, not so much kill the evil Arabs. It might seem rather odd to justify this, but the Arabs/Muslims dominated the region for over a thousand years, imprisoning Jews, Christians, anyone who challenged the status-quo through economic, social, and educational limitations a.k.a dhimmi) or were expelled if they had not fled. The violent expulsion was also in response to the exodus of Jews. It was definitely a tit or tat game except the Jews responded with 9 tits for every tat, more or less.) [10] During Operation Hiram, at least nine massacres of Arabs were performed by IDF soldiers. [11] After the war, from 1948 to 1950, the IDF cleared its borders, which resulted in the expulsion of around 30,000 to 40,000 Arabs. [12]
While the specifics of Morris' interpretations (This is a weird term. We use Morris's opinions as factual evidence, and then go around and say it was an interpretation. It doesn't make sense.) have been contested from both sides (This is good. We can use this to expand and list opposing arguments, but we should first rewrite or readd more "interpretations" to balance Morris' opinion.) many of his arguments have become widely accepted among Israeli " New Historians," and other academic and public circles. (Too vague. New Historian is an extreme minority among Israeli historians, we're overstating their popularity with words like 'widely accepted' because it doesn't clarify just how small New Historians are, even in the article itself it doesn't mention it as far as I know. 'Other academic and public circles' is also too vague and leaves an unsettling feeling of ambiguity that should be answered.) [13]
Whether or not Israeli schools use Morris' books are totally irrelevant. Schools also use pro-Israeli text, and neutral and every other perspective. I hope this clarifies my approach and it wasn't meant to be a disaster as you have inferred lol. ; ) Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 23:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't have time to pilpul and answer such questions as this one : "can you tell me what ISN'T POV?". You are perfectly aware that the one who claims something is poved has to explain the sentence that would be poved clearly in order to modify or to improve this. I have nothing against that. But not time to hear you just claiming
WP:I DON'T LIKE IT, my force a tag on the section. How many edits do you have on the main and how many on talk pages ?
About the sentences with 4-5 wonderful websites as sources, the 2nd line of the section says exactly the same, with 9 academic books. I added these to answer your comments.
We can keep this article the way it is currently.
Ceedjee (
talk)
18:02, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Again, if you asked me the same questions, and each time I've responded. I will reiterate: There is nothing particularly wrong with Morris' analysis, but as I've said he is a controversial figure. I personally don't see anything majorly wrong with his opinion, but it's just that...an opinion. If you want someone to pick a part the POV-pushing, go to the Israel portal and find a pro-Israel user. With time, I'm sure he will. This isn't so much a personal issue or imposing my version of the section as it is promoting NPOV and ensuring all sides are heard. Is this enough clarification? Again, I never made fun of you, ever. I really don't understand why this debate because I don't believe I should have to re-answer every single question. You could very well repeat your exact post no matter how insightful/valid my comments are, because you aren't listing your disagreements exactly. Therefore, I will ask you questions: 1) Do you consider Morris a controversial figure? 2) Do you consider the current section NPOV and balanced? 3) Do you believe the historical analysis attributed to Morris is undeniable inarguable fact and cannot be balanced with an alternative perspective from an equally notable expert?
That is all, Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 00:33, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
What is controversed and by who and where (wp:rs source, reference, page) ? :
Ceedjee ( talk) 10:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
A third opinion was requested for this talk page. Please describe briefly in this section what the disagreement is. Specifically each editor may want to briefly state what changes they would make (or not make) in the article. NJGW ( talk) 16:26, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
What are you asking? I'm confused, I thought I answered. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 00:08, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I've never said one way or the other, only asked questions to help me understand. Now that we have a clear statement of your intent: Ceedjee, are Morris' views currently considered mainstream (and do other's support his conclusions)? I notice that there are at least 3 variations of the story (which probably need to be corrected if they are to be included in the article): the Palestinians left of their own accord, the Palestinians were encouraged to leave, and the Palestinians were forced to leave. Ceedjee, can you write a section which incorporates all these views with the due weight given to each by the academic community? NJGW ( talk) 05:37, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
At this point I'm rather unmotivated to pursue further editing disputes beyond this, so whatever result occurs I will not object. Previous talk discussion was extremely time-consuming. : )
Ok, I've left a lot of info and perspective above. It might take awhile, but feel free to skim through the posts between Cee and I.
My points:
Section - 1948 Palestine War
For example, I don't believe this is a fair or neutral edit:
"Whereas historians now agree on most of the events of that period there is still disagreement on whether the exodus was the result of a plan designed before or during the war by Zionist leaders, or whether it was an unintended result of the war. [25]"
Haven't looked up the editor yet in history, but that kind of phrase is an extreme generalization. Morris' views, especially on this topic, have been disputed by several historians (including pro/anti). It's edits like these that make it incredibly difficult to keep up with the article, as not only do I have to focus on past edits, but future potentially-hazardous ones. Cee is a great editor, but this isn't going anywhere and even if you do conclude in an accommodating way (from my perspective hehe) I don't think I'll come back to this article unless there is strong collaboration. Hope I'm not crossing any lines here. Please understand, I've been as fair as I can be. Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 08:15, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
The section 1948 Palestine War is dedicated to be an introduction related to the 1948 Palestinian exodus and its causes. Therefore, it send the reader to the main articles on the topic.
There are 2 paragraphs in this section. The 1st one treats with the events and the second one with the causes. Everything is sourced. In the 2nd paragarph, there are 3 sentences :
My points are :
I am ready to make modifications but then, I'd like to know what precisely is bad and how to modify, ie, what particularly should be added, such as numerous events that would be contested or other analysis that are still debated today concerning the cause of the exodus. Ceedjee ( talk) 11:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
About the 3rd sentence of the 2nd paragraph, wikifan writes : "Haven't looked up the editor yet in history, but that kind of phrase is an extreme generalization. Morris' views, especially on this topic, have been disputed by several historians (including pro/anti). It's edits like these that make it incredibly difficult to keep up with the article, (...)
Ceedjee ( talk) 11:43, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm confused: Can you prove this? Evens so, Gelber and Karsh aren't the only "experts" on this article. There are thousands, and to believe "most" historians endorse Morris' analysis on this specific subject is inaccurate: "Whereas historians now agree on most of the events of that period." Hence, a sentence like that makes it "incredibly difficult to keep up with the article." Understand?
We've gone through this a billion times and it's gotten to a point where I just repeat myself until I give up, so I will summarize in bullets:
When does the 3rd opinion come? : ) Wikifan12345 ( talk) 21:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Same for me and I answer again.
There are no analysis of Morris in the article.
Once more. Please, be more precise than just saying you have the feeling somebody is not neutral. Ceedjee ( talk) 07:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Very shortly. I suggest to remove the 2nd sentence of the 2nd paragraph. This is the only one where it is talked about Morris's work and it doens't bring any information in addition to 1st and 3rd sentence. Ceedjee ( talk) 07:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
source 6 - 15 is Morris' analysis, and that includes the majority of the info in the section. There is no justification for reducing my argument to "[Straw man|you have the feeling somebody is not neutral]", when I have provided overwhelming commentary and proposals to affirm my perspective. I like Morris personally. But my POV doesn't matter. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 07:21, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Wikifan: It seems obvious that Ceedjee knows a lot about this period in history, as well as about all the historians involved. It seems that the best course of action is to allow Ceedjee to write a section and evaluate the finished product.
Ceedjee: I think the article needs a section which includes as much of the information you provided (in your analysis of the various historians) as possible, though it should avoid unnecessary information overload (think signal-to-noise ratio). Extreme minority viewpoints--those notable enough to be mentioned--can be one or two sentences at the end (preferably with some note about why they are refuted), but views with wider acceptance should receive at least a paragraph which lays out the theory, its supporters, and their evidence. If this is done clearly and fairly, I see no reason to also include back-and-forth debate between the various theories.
To both Wikifan and Ceedjee: Part of the issue is that you do not speak to each other civilly. There are insinuations and snarky comments on both your parts which greatly reduce the good will of the other editor. From now own please make a great effort to re-read everything you write before you save it, and remove any statement which is not either a clear and concise suggestion to change text, or a simple rational for such a change. For the life of me I can't see where you actually disagree on anything, just that it seems you got off on the wrong foot somewhere.
Does this sound like a reasonable way to proceed to each of you? NJGW ( talk) 14:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Why does he get to do it? He is an editor with a strong opinion, not particularly objective nor impartial. He is the one promoting Morris from the get-go, obstructing any edit that might neutralize the section or facilitate an environment to insert an alternative perspective to Morris'. Again, I've listed my general and specific criticism in previous posts - search above and you should see a 8+ paragraph of my own personal analysis. But I will say again, our POV is irrelevant. If a notable expert has a specific opinion on a detail in the section that contradicts Morris', we are obligated to include it. Am I right here? Whether or not Morris is apologetic/critical is not my concern, neutrality is. what is your opinion NJGW? Like, what are your views of Israel? this might seem intrusive, but it seems relevant considering your hesitation for approaching Morris with a different expert...aside from Ceedjee. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 07:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I am open to move forward and try to add some points. But, understand that from my point of view, the current version is perfectly ok with npov, due weight and all wp:principles but I see that Wikifan disagrees.
Anyway, I agree to try to write something different or wider but I would like to have, even roughly, the points/mind/analysis that you think you should be added.
The causes (and in a way the responsabilities) of the 1948 Palestinian exodus are not in that summary. Is this what you expect to be added ? With the different wp:rs point of view on the topic ?
Ceedjee (
talk)
09:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Ceedjee (
talk)
09:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I think I can source this from different historians involved in the topic :
Ceedjee ( talk) 12:05, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
"However Resolution 194 refers to traditional (non-hereditary) refugees, not Palestinian refugees."
Can somebody please explain this...what do they mean when they say "Not palestinian refugees", do they mean that it only applies to the original refugees of the 1948 war and not their descendants (which number 4-5 million today)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.214.139.58 ( talk) 05:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding
this edit and the reverts to include it. The original says: "As a result of the
Six-Day War, around 280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians fled
[30] the territories occupied by
Israel during the war, including as a result of the demolition of the Palestinian villages of
Imwas,
Yalo, and
Beit Nuba,
Surit,
Beit Awwa,
Beit Mirsem,
Shuyukh,
Jiftlik,
Agarith and
Huseirat and the "emptying" of the refugee camps of ʿ
Aqabat Jabr and ʿ
Ein Sulṭān."
The edit changes this to: "As a result of the
Six-Day War, around 280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians fled
[31] the territories won by
Israel during the Six-day War, including as a result of the war, the destruction of the Palestinian villages of
Imwas,
Yalo, and
Beit Nuba,
Surit,
Beit Awwa,
Beit Mirsem,
Shuyukh,
Jiftlik,
Agarith and
Huseirat and the "emptying" of the refugee camps of ʿ
Aqabat Jabr and ʿ
Ein Sulṭān."
Now besides the obvious issue of "won" when the proper term used in every official document is "occupied" the edit changes the meaning of the last sentence. The original says that they left partly as a result of the destruction of the villages. The edited version is almost unintelligible saying that the villages were destroyed as a part of the war without that clause relating to the refugees. Now I have a feeling the editor who keeps putting this in
knows how WP works, but I invite that editor here to explain the changes.
Nableezy (
talk)
20:58, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
The reference for the sentence Although all Arab League members at the time- Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen- voted against the resolution (ref 38), is a dead link. Could someone rectify it? Eklipse ( talk) 11:51, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
There's a small edit war going on in the article that I'm bringing here involving the text below, and text quoted from a letter-to-the-editor of Benny Morris:
In "1948 and After", Morris estimates based on an Israeli intelligence report that among the first 391.000 refugees to flee, 73% of departures were caused directly by the Israelis. According to Morris, the rest of the Palestinian refugees were systematically expelled using force [32] Elsewhere Morris writes concerning Palestinians who left voluntarily intending to return, that "but if denial of the right to return was a form of "expulsion", then a great many villagers (...) can be considered "expellees"" [33].
The issue is that for some reason, Morris when discussing the topic outside his academic work (as in the letter-to-the-editor) appears to be a rather different person (I'm tempted to say his own evil twin). In my opinion we should quote him from the books as those are prepared carefully with the expectation that they will be subjects of close scrutiny. Outside the books, Morris has inter alia said that ethnic cleansing is in his view OK, as long as it's done by Israel. Alternatively, we can in my opinion reduce the space given to Morris in this article and cite Pappé and Khalidi in greater length. Even outside that context, more space to Khalidi would be appropriate, since he's not an Israeli unlike Morris, Pappé & co (nothing wrong with Israelis, but it's a good idea to have sources from other backgrounds too).
Concerning Tallicfan's specific comments, I'm well aware of what LMD is since I'm a subscriber, specifically because it's an excellent source of high-quality commentary. Regarding the 73% directly caused by Israelis, that's a direct citation from LMD: "This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis". -- Dailycare ( talk) 12:50, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Daily care, Dominique Vidal (ref 33) is not a reliable source to give Benny Morris's mind. As Zero points out just here above : the 73% comes from a Haganah reports Benny Morris reports. But eg in The Birth... Revisited, he explains that the cause of the 1st and the 2nd waves were a mixed of numerous reasons. It is not a good way of working to use an argument of Morris out of its context. To get the full picture, we need to use his conclusions. For the 3rd and the 4th wave, I don't think he says either that all' Palestinians were expelled but he talks about systematic expulsions. The nuance is that [only those who didn't flee] were expelled. Nevertheless, in his last book about the events (1948: a history of the First Arab Israeli WAr), he uses the words ethnic cleansing.
What you write sounds as if Morris would say that 70% of 350,000 + 100% of 400,000 = 655,000 were expelled by Israeli forces, which is completely biaising his discourse. In the introduction The Making of Israel, I think (it has to be checked but 80% sure) he says around half were expelled by Israelis.
What he says is enough. No need to go beyond.
81.244.34.203 (
talk)
20:21, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
. Trying to ascertain specific numbers and percentages for "blame" is impossible, counterproductive and inherently POV. Stellarkid ( talk) 01:33, 13 August 2009 (UTC)Unfortunately the Palestinians failed to produce and preserve 'state papers' from 1947-1949, and the Arab states - all dictatorships of one sort or another (military juntas, absolute monarchies, etc.) - refused and continue to refuse access to their papers from the 1948 war, which they regarded and still regard as a humiliating catastrophe.
Ethnic cleansing is an inflammatory and inaccurate word for people fleeing from a war situation, or running from a lost battle, or even for expulsions given the context. Benny Morris specifically denies that he believes the charge in his writings. What he says in an article in a non-RS site can be argued, but is not appropriate for this article. In Righteous Victims,(2001) page 257, he clearly says "There was...no systematic expulsion policy; it was never, ...discussed or decided upon at Cabinet or IDF general staff meetings." In his 2004 article in The New York Times Book Review [39], referring to "ethnic cleansing", he says " The Arabs have only themselves to blame for the (unexpected) results of the war that they launched with the aim of "ethnically cleansing" Palestine of the Jews. (Contemporary Arab apologists, always full of righteous indignation, conveniently forget this.)" Note the quotes he put around the phrase. Morris did not write the Counterpunch article but he did write the NY Times article. His view should be clear. Charges of ethnic cleansing do not belong in this article, as this view is highly POV as well as mistaken, nor does it accurately reflect Morris' thinking on the matter. Stellarkid ( talk) 16:25, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
First off, DailyCare, LMD is COMMENTARY. You just said it. They interpret things how they want to. This shows you're pushing a POV, and posting an article that interprets Morris unless it is Morris himself. Plus, saying the "73% caused directly by Israel" isn't Morris' actual message. The 55% of refugees fleeing because of IDF operations" can also be interpreted to mean that 55% fled because of military operations in a war the Arabs started. And this is what Morris means in his quote i posted about "the flail of war." There is nothing wrong with his quote, except you do not seem to like it, but you'll take an extremely biased magazine, LMD which is NOT Le Monde, and does not have the respect or NPOV credentials Le Monde itself can be said to have. Also, with Morris and "ethnic cleansing," a term that wasn't even around in 1948, he has said numerous times there was no grand plan and Plan D was not an ethnic cleansing plan per se. Tallicfan20 ( talk) 14:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".
- by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976 ...
"The Arab streets are curiously deserted and, ardently following the poor example of the more moneyed class there has been an exodus from Jerusalem too, though not to the same extent as in Jaffa and Haifa."
- London Times, May 5, 1948
"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948
"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948
"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949
"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183
"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25
The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31
I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948
The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949
We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. [b]The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said[/b], quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952
....
"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954 [/b]
"The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war."
- General Glubb Pasha, in the London Daily Mail on August 12, 1948
"[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities guaranteed their safety and rights as citizens of Israel."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, according to Rev. Karl Baehr, Executive Secretary of the American Christian Palestine Committee, New York Herald Tribune, June 30, 1949
"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did."
- Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14
"the military and civil authorities and the Jewish representative expressed their profound regret at this grave decision [to evacuate]. The [Jewish] Mayor of Haifa made a passionate appeal to the delegation to reconsider its decision"
- The Arab National Committee of Haifa, told to the Arab League, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963
.......
"The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States' opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously, and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs. ...The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some thirty thousand people, chiefly well-to-do-families."
- Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948
"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return."
- Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387
"Since 1948 it is We who demanded the return of refugees... while it is We who made them to leave...
We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave...
We have rendered them dispossessed...
We have accustomed them to begging...
We have participated in lowering their moral and social level...
Then WE exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of Political purposes..."
- Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war [note: same person as above]
"As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property."
- bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957
One morning in April 1948, Dr. Jamal woke us to say that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), led by the Husseinis, had warned Arab residents of Talbieh to leave immediately. The understanding was that the residents would be able to return as conquerors as soon as the Arab forces had thrown the Jews out. Dr. Jamal made the point repeatedly that he was leaving because of the AHC's threats, not because of the Jews, and that he and his frail wife had no alternative but to go.
Commentary Magazine -- January 2000
Source: Peace Encyclopedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.185.23 ( talk) 23:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Go read some serious scholarly works instead of spouting old hasbara. The actual debate by contemporary historians - after plenty of previously government sources became available - is whether or not Israel (before that the Haganah and BG) had mandated such a policy on a national or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.158.79.102 ( talk) 20:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
What I think it is is that you have Benny Morris, and he discovered more as he went along, has his way of interpreting things, the problem is that others try to interpret it for him. I think the mistake he made was to write books, make a ton of money, without a complete picture. With regard to the quotes above, I think that the problem is the Arab archives are CLOSED. No one can see them on this topic the way Morris sees Israel, US and British things. The quotes above to represent something, especially when they seem to take such a direct and overt responsibility for the problem. Tallicfan20 ( talk) 14:07, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
The Palestinian refugee problem is noted as one of the more pressing refugee problems in the world, due to the tremendous duration of time and the number of people involved. It would be helpful if a table of numbers of current refugees, living in different countries, in the West Bank, Gaza etc, were made so the gravity of the topic can be easily understood.
For instance, in the later part of the article, some numbers are given, such as the 500,000 Palestinians residing in Saudi Arabia. But then in the section under Lebanon, there are no numbers .
If this information is elsewhere, then can a wikilink be placed somewhere? Wilgamesh 05:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Are there any exact figures for how many people are left of the ones who fled six decades ago, and how many people are descended from those who fled?// Big Adamsky 06:23, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
As Ilan Pappe writes in A History of Modern Palestine, a third of Palestine's Arabs had been evicted before the Arab states invaded in May 1948. Charles Glass, London Review of Books 24 Jun 04 [3]
Three of the primary reasons that people object to a Palestinian "Right of Return" have not been listed here. Specifically they are
1) The General Assembly resolution says "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours" should be allowed back. Returning home is predicated on wishing to live at peace, and Israelis see no evidence that Palestinian refugees wish to live at peace with them. 2) In any event General Assembly resolutions are non-binding. 3) The actual refugees wishing to "return home" number only a small fraction of the total number of Palestinians now classed as refugees, at most 10%; the other over 90% cannot be said to be returning. Jayjg 20:26, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
1) is fine. 2) is not precisely an objection, but may be relevant. 3) strikes me as completely irrelevant, even if reliable statistics could be found on who wants to return and who does not; a right does not have to be exercised by all those who have it (not everybody exercises their right to free speech, or trial by jury, for instance.) - Mustafaa 00:36, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
About Libya's offer: Saddam Hussein also made an offer like that. I don't think there were many takers. I can't remember any details so I'm not putting anything into the article. -- Zero 04:48, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Interesting - I hadn't heard about that one.
Can you source "Libyan Jews... point out the lack of human rights, religious freedoms, and democracy in Libya that make such an offer highy unattractive"? I came across no such claims being made by Libyan Jews, though commenting on the lack of democracy in Libya is like commenting about the lack of oxygen on the Moon. - Mustafaa 01:55, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What's so specious about the offer? Everything I know about Qaddafi indicates he means it, just as it indicates that they'd be stupid to accept it. Unlike any other Arab leader, he's quite simple: he almost always means what he says, though what he says is almost always breathtakingly stupid. - Mustafaa 22:23, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I don't think Saddam Hussein's similar offer was specious either. What he was hoping for was a handful of returning Jews who would appear shaking his hand on TV and generally give him a nice propaganda event with minimal cost. The offer would have been quickly modified if a substantial number of Jews wanted to return to Iraq and get their property back. -- Zero 08:36, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As far as I know, there are many Palestinian refugees (or descendants) with degrees forming part of the liberal professionals in the Persian Gulf and even Europe. Doctors, architects, journalists,... Probably they are those outside refugee camps. However, could you make a list of famous Palestinian refugees?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_Palestinians —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
74.118.94.165 (
talk)
16:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I assume that neither this nor Palestinian exodus deal with recent Palestine emigrants. I have read that the Catholic church is concerned that the land of Jesus could remain without Christians, since the decreasing Palestine Christians are better received than Muslims in Western countries and feel increasingly uneasy along Muslim Palestinians and Israelis.
Palestinian Christians have been suffering marked at the hands of their Arab brethern who have a saying "first the saturday people, then the sunday people"....when the saturday people are stiff-necked and resist, the sunday people made to suffer by their Arab brethern. [4] [5] [6] Lance6Wins 18:39, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I suggest you talk to Joseph E. Saad - the only Palestinian Christian on Wikipedia - about this, if he hasn't given up yet. However, if the many Christians fleeing Palestine are added, so should be the many Muslims doing the same. It's not much fun living under occupation, and many people prefer to get out if they get a chance. - Mustafaa 00:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The issue was a key factor in the collapse of peace talks in 2000. President Bush last April publicly embraced Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's position that refugees be allowed into any new Palestinian state but not into Israel.
"We promise that we will not rest until the right of return of our people is achieved and the tragedy of our diaspora ends," Abbas told a session of parliament held to mourn Arafat, who died of an undisclosed illness in France on Nov. 11. [9]
Please add. Lance6Wins 18:39, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please provide exact Bush quote. - Mustafaa 14:28, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Cool. Sadly, I don't believe Abbas, but I've added a mention of his position in case he does come out on top. The Bush quote probably belongs in one of the more general peace process pages; to put it here would require a whole new section on political participants' views, which would be constantly in need of updating. - Mustafaa 15:57, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The 911 attacks are not part of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and if that's what Alberuni is saying, he's wrong. Other pages' edit wars have little to do with this page... I'm not dismissing the sentence as irrelevant - merely noting that to make a place for it here would take a significant amount of work (namely, summarizing the positions of at least the major political organizations participating in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) I'm not averse to that work being done - or, indeed, to doing that work at some point - but it has not yet been done. - Mustafaa 00:01, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The article says the refugees "were not able to return home". That is true for most, but certainly not all refugees. Israel offered to allow 100,000 to return (including 35,000 that were in the process of returning), but the Arab states refused to negotiate with Israel so as not to give it "legitimacy". Palestine Conciliation Commission, Fourth Progress Report, A/922, 22 September 1949: "Subject to these conditions, the Government of Israel would be prepared to accept the return to Israel in its present limits of 100,000 refugees, in addition to the total Arab population existing at the end of the hostilities (including those who have already returned since then), thus increasing the total number of that Population to a maximum of 250,000. This repatriation would form part of a general plan for resettlement of refugees which would be established by a special organ to be created for the purpose by the United Nations." [11] "This number would have included some 35,000 refugees whose return had already been negotiated and was underway ". [12]. I think this information should be included. Jayjg 16:16, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree, but we need to find out more first about these 35,000. What basis were they selected on? Did they actually return or not (the wording seems ambiguous)? - Mustafaa 18:48, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
They were selected on the basis of family re-unification, and the wording is slightly ambiguous, though other sources are more explicit:
In 1949, Israel offered to admit 100,000 Arab refugees, with the understanding that their repatriation would be linked to meaningful peace negotiations. Although 35,000 Arabs eventually returned under a family reunification plan, further implementation of the offer was suspended in the 1950's, after it became clear that the Arab states steadfastly refused to consider Israel's peace overtures, preferring instead to maintain a state of war with and economic boycott against Israel. [13]
Also, from the original link:
Notably, from the early 1950s until 1967, Israel maintained a family reunification program under which it claims that around 40–50,000 refugees returned to Israel; several additional thousands returned between 1967 and 1994. And since the beginning of the Oslo process, Israel has collaborated in the de facto “return” to the Palestinian authority of thousands of 1948 refugees: PLO political figures and security forces, and their families. If return is defined as applying to “mandatory Palestine,” this may enable both Palestinians and Israelis to take satisfaction in the exercise of a return to the eventual Palestinian state alone. But in general, Israel, in keeping with its narrative, has preferred to avoid taking political initiatives in the refugee issue.
The principal known Israeli initiative took place in the summer of 1949. Under pressure from the US, and in view of Arab refusal (at the Lausanne Conference) to discuss agreed borders until the refugee issue had been resolved, the Ben Gurion government agreed to absorb 100,000 refugees. This number would have included some 35,000 refugees whose return had already been negotiated and was underway. Israel’s decision was made conditional upon Arab agreement, at Lausanne, to a comprehensive peace, including resettlement of the remaining refugees in Arab countries. Discussion within the Israeli government at the time also touched upon the possibility of absorbing a larger number of refugees, on condition that the Gaza Strip (with some of its refugee population) would be transferred from Egyptian to Israeli control, thereby improving Israel’s military security situation vis-à-vis Egypt. Ultimately the Arabs rejected the Israeli offer, after which Israel retracted it.
Jayjg 19:13, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
One other point to check: the article currently says "During the period mid-1948-53 between 30,000 and 90,000 refugees made their way from their countries of exile to resettle in their former villages or in other Israeli Arab villages (contrary to Israeli law.)" Was this figure meant to include these family reunifications (in which case the parenthetical remark is partly wrong) or not? - Mustafaa 23:56, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Oh. Never mind - the quote is in Talk archives: "(Morris, p39) During the period mid-1948-53 between 30,000 and 90,000 refugees made their way illegally from their countries of exile to resettle in their former villages or in other Israeli Arab villages." Thank you Zero, as so often. - Mustafaa 23:58, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I propose a slight modification to your text, as follows:
These refugees, the great majority of whom had lived there for generations, were generally not able to return home. In 1950, according to UNRWA, they numbered 914,000. During the period mid-1948-53 between 30,000 and 90,000 refugees (according to Benny Morris) made their way from their countries of exile to resettle in their former villages or in other Israeli Arab villages (contrary to Israeli law); some 35,000 were let in legally under a family reunification agreement. In 1949, Israel offered to let in up to 65,000 more as part of a proposed deal with the surrounding Arab countries, but they rejected it, and Israel withdrew the proposal in 1950.
I think this is more accurate, and slightly better gramatically. Thoughts? Jayjg 17:03, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Looks fine. - Mustafaa 17:16, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A few things are not quite right here. The '100,000 offer' that Israel made at the Lausanne conference was supposed to consist of (1) 25,000 "illegal immigrants", (2) 10,000 persons under the family reunification scheme, (3) 65,000 others. The 25,000 figure was the one being claimed by the Israeli government at that time. It might be correct but there is no way to check it. An Arab who left their village, went to the West Bank, then returned to their village was an illegal immigrant according to Israel, but such people were indistinguishable from those who stayed in their village all along. Unless, of course, their village no longer existed in which case they would have tried to hide with relatives in another place. Anyway, these people would have tried to hide their history and Israel had a good motive to exaggerate their numbers, so the numbers are very uncertain. The figure of 10,000 was a "projected" number that did not correspond to reality. By the middle of 1951 the total number of such people was still less than 2000 (Israeli govt figures quoted by Morris). (And meanwhile Israel was still expelling Arabs, but that's another story.) The "35,000" ascribed to family reunicification in the article is simply wrong - it is 25,000+10,000 misinterpretted. A good source on the 100,000 offer is the last chapter of Morris (Birth...Revisited). -- Zero 12:39, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Next, it is true that the Arab states rejected the 100,000 offer but there is more to the story. The offer was not made in isolation but had other conditions. For example, it included Israel being allowed to keep all of the land it had occupied in the war. Behind the scenes, the US was trying to press Israel into taking back a much larger number of refugees. There was huge opposition within the Israeli government to taking back any refugees at all (including from Ben Gurion, who for once didn't get is own way). Part of the Israeli preparation for making the offer was to deliberately stir up public opposition to it in Israel; the idea was to impress on the world how difficult it was for Israel to make such an offer and how impossible it would be to offer more. Around this time (I forget the exact chronological order) some of the Arab states were making secret contacts with Israel that offered various deals. For example, in 1949 Syria offered to "immediately sign a peace treaty and not an armistice and immediately exchange ambassadors", and in addition to settle 250,000-500,000 refugees. In return they wanted the international border to run along the Jordan River (note there is only a short stretch relevant to Syria) and through the middle of the Sea of Galilee. According to Israeli documents, Ben Gurion refused to discuss it. This is not necessarily relevant to the current article, but I mention it to show that the Israel-conciliatory, Arab States-intransigent picture of history is largely mythological. -- Zero 12:39, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well I have just read this article through twice, and it seems fine, I am not finding it too biased. A pleasant change, so I wanted to thank those involved, Thank You!
I will seek out some photos as requested. Any ideas on what is needed?
BTW: We were just re-registered as refugees by UNRWA, even though we are Canadian Citizens now. So I guess there is no time limit in terms of length or residency. My children, however, can only be registered by me, when I go back, according to the documents my father obtained when he came back from Jordan last December. Ironically about the same time as when the last revision took place.
Joseph 04:27, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, some were expelled, but the linked article ( Palestinian Exodus) only indicates expulsions after the war started, so as far as I can tell the insertion was inaccurate. Jayjg (talk) 20:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, you're right, I missed that when I read through it. Still, it seems to give a false impression, that there were large numbers of expellees at that time. I'll add in the 1000 figure. Jayjg (talk) 21:14, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, if we're looking for knowledgeable, Zero's the guy. Jayjg (talk) 22:31, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
After the UN partition of Palestine, war was declared on both sides. Most supporters of Israel believe that the Arab countries are responsible for the fact that there were refugees on either side, including areas not part of the Jewish state in the partition plan. They believe that the Arab countries should have absorbed the Arab refugees.
What is this point supposed to mean?
If it means quid pro quo, then its hould be merged with the next one.
Bless sins
11:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I added the note that it has been rumoured that states like Saudi Arabia refuse to grant any Palestinian refugees Saudi citizenship in order to artificially prop up the refugee problem. In all other comparable refugee situations the refugees in question have either been resettled in their home land or settled amongst the host population. It's the most likely reason in my book.
I should like to know why this note was deleted from the article.– Mr Bozo, 21 July, 2006
Stevertigo, your re-write of the intro of this article was highly problematic, because of its POV inclusions and factual errors. For example, you write that The conflict itself began with the influx of Jewish refugees, seeking refuge from The Holocaust within British Mandate of Palestine.; this is both unsourced and factually incorrect, since the conflict began in at least the 1920s, if not earlier, decades before The Holocaust. Continuing, you state The Levant had once been the homeland of Jewish ancestors, the immediate needs for survival met with the religious-based ethnic cause, which melded to become Zionism. Again, unsourced opinion, difficult to understand, and factually incorrect; there was no "melding", and the claim that the "ethnic cause" was "religion based" is dubious, considering that the main proponents were socialist atheists who rejected religion. You continue Zionism sought to provide a home for Jewish refugees by displacing the resident Arab population,; again, POV and factually incorrect - the goal of Zionism was not to displace the resident Arab population. Continuing, you state and was ultimately successful in building Israel as a nation state with an instituted system for limiting the influence of non-Jews., linking to apartheid - it's hard to imagine a more POV claim than Israel created an institutionalize Apartheid state. It's best to write introductions that conform with policy ( WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V) instead. Jayjg (talk) 20:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm astounded you would insert your highly flawed version again, even after the issues were explained to you. I'll just refer you to some articles to start with: 1920 Palestine riots, Jaffa riots, 1929 Palestine riots, Great Uprising - fit those into your "the conflict wasn't Arab-Jewish, and it began with an influx of Jewish refugees from the Holocaust" theory. I believe that you're trying to edit in conformance with policies; however, my impression is that your POV is so deeply entrenched that you honestly don't even understand that it is a POV. Regardless of the cause, any proposed changes are going to have to be well cited here, because so far your edits are mostly pov original research. Jayjg (talk) 00:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin's version | Stevertigo's version |
---|---|
In the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a Palestinian refugee is a
refugee from
Palestine created by the
Palestinian Exodus, which
Palestinians call the Nakba (
Arabic: النكبة, meaning "disaster" or "catastrophe"). The
United Nations definition of a "Palestinian refugee" is a person whose "normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict,"
[1] and their descendants, regardless of whether they reside in areas designated as "refugee camps" or in established, permanent communities.
[2] The number of Palestinian refugees has grown from 711,000 in 1950
[3] to over four million registered with the UN in 2002. |
Palestinian refugee is a non-
Jewish
Arab or
Arabic language-speaking
refugee from the
Palestine region, who, due to the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is living in military-
occupied territories without officially recognized state
citizenship.
The conflict is one driven by the competing
nationalist movements of Jewish and
Arab peoples, which has left the
nation state of
Israel in control of a
state-less and largely ungoverned population of Palestinian Arab
Muslims posessing no official
citizenship.
|
That one caught my eye as well, jpgordon. Again, an astonishing display of one-sided POV so deeply entrenched that it doesn't even recognize it is a POV. Jayjg (talk) 22:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Stevertigo's POV | alternative POV |
---|---|
Both Israel and most of the
Arab League states maintained policies of denying citizenship to the Palestinian refugees or their decendants —Israel due to its desire to maintain ethnic dominance within its small state, and the Arab League as a form of protest against the establishment of Israel. |
Both Israel and most of the Arab League states maintained policies of denying citizenship to the Palestinian refugees or their descendants —Israel due to its concerns about hosting a large population of citizens hostile to its existence, and the Arab League so they could use the refugees as a pawn in their efforts to destroy Israel. |
Stevertigo, while I have my opinions about which statement is more accurate, at least I recognize that both statements are POVs. However, I'm getting the strong impression that you don't; rather, you see the left-hand side as "objective truth", and the right-hand side never even occurs to you as an alternative explanation for events. Jayjg (talk) 22:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Stevertigo's definition | United Nations definition |
---|---|
Palestinian refugee is a non-Jewish Arab or Arabic language-speaking refugee from the Palestine region, who due to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is living in military-occupied territories ..." (no source, my emphasis). |
A "Palestinian refugee" is a person whose "normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict," [5] and their descendants, regardless of whether they reside in areas designated as "refugee camps" or in permanent communities. Around 1.7 million live in Jordan; 400,000 in Lebanon; 400,000 in Syria; 600,000 in the West Bank; and 900,000 in Gaza. [17] (my emphasis) SlimVirgin (talk) 23:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC) |
Stevertigo's definition | United Nations definition |
---|---|
In common usage, a "Palestinian refugee" is a non-Jewish Arab or Arabic language-speaking refugee from the Palestine region, who, as a result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is living without
citizenship in designated military-occupied reservations, as well as within neighboring states.[emf.] The technical definition varies but the one accepted by the United Nations is a person whose "normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict," [6] and their descendants, regardless of whether they reside in areas designated as "refugee camps" or in permanent communities. Around 1.7 million live in Jordan; 400,000 in Lebanon; 400,000 in Syria; 600,000 in the West Bank; and 900,000 in Gaza. Jordan allows citizenship to about half of its 3 million Palestinian residents, and general reference to "refugee" tends to omit this usage. [18] (my emphasis) |
A "Palestinian refugee" is a person whose "normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict," [7] and their descendants, regardless of whether they reside in areas designated as "refugee camps" or in permanent communities. Around 1.7 million live in Jordan; 400,000 in Lebanon; 400,000 in Syria; 600,000 in the West Bank; and 900,000 in Gaza. [19] |
As early as 1840, Lord Palmerston (later to become Prime Minister) wrote:
The document defining Britain's obligations as Mandate power copied the text of the Balfour Declaration concerning the establishment of a Jewish homeland:
|
I'm now kinda confused, perhaps, by all this interpersonal bickering, none of which seems to address the actual questions raised by the various edits. In particular, I haven't received an answer to my question to Steve of last week: [W]hat's the source of your definition as opposed to the UNRWA one? Perhaps you guys should take your disagreement over the precise meaning and hierarchy of our guidelines to some more suitable forum so the rest of us could actually work out whether or not the changes to the definition are appropriate. (And, Steve, it doesn't matter at all who first formulated the policy; you can be proud of having done so, but it doesn't give you more authority regarding its current interpretation.) -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 16:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I recently initiated the renaming of a section into ' UNRWA definition of a "Palestinian refugee" '. Then I noticed the phrase " evolved independently of the UNHCR definition". This leads to two questions:
Will it make sense to make a separate section for the discussion of the definition(s)? `' mikka (t) 21:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I think the "UNRWA definition of a 'Palestinian refugee'" is pretty neutral and NPOV. It displays the facts, the supporters, and the critics. What more can you ask for? -- GHcool 22:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Amoruso 19:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks mate! -- AlmostFree 19:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It is purely witten from an Israeli point of view. "The claim" says it all. Gerash77 08:02, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
according to the article: "The UNRWA also registers as refugees... persons in need of support who first became refugees as a result of the 1967 conflict"
According to a study by Oxfam "Coping Mechanisms: Palestinians in camps in Lebanon Preliminary Field Study Report" refugees that fled the West Bank and Gaza Strip after the 1967 war are not registered with the UNRWA and therefore do not qualify for assistance, even though they live in refugee camps and share the same legal status as those that fled the war in 1948.
Also according to the UNRWA definition of Palestinian refugees:
"Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict... UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948..."
There is no mention of status of those that fled the 1967 war as being registered by the UNRWA.
In the first sentence "a Palestinian refugee is a refugee" and on the refugee page I find the definition: "A refugee is a person seeking asylum in a foreign country in order to escape persecution, war, terrorism, extreme poverty, famines, or natural disaster." Is it persecution these refugees are escaping? What is the nature of the persecution? What happens to those who return or attempt to return? It seems a bit unreal to have this lengthy article without mentioning what they are escaping. And BTW, wouldn't it be helpful to the uninformed reader (our target audience) to say at the beginning that this is about Jews cleansing Palestine of non-Jews in order to set up a Jewish dominated regime? As it is you have to wade through most of the article to find this out. Fourtildas 22:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Material like this is not particularily relevant to an article on Palestinian refugee (in fact, it might look like nasty denial as doesn't belong anywhere on these pages).
Nor is it well sourced - Shmuel Katz is a propagandist first, his credibility as a historian is negligible. He has no qualifications and his work shows no evidence of any historical research. The clip from him that's appeared in this article amply demonstrates why his words don't belong in here, it's a polemic, entirely fact-free:
"The result has been the creation of a large, amorphous mass of names, some of them relating to real people, some of them purely fictitious or relating to persons, long since dead, a minority relating to people without a home as a result of their or their parents' leaving Palestine in 1948, the majority relating to people who, whatever their origins, are now living and working as ordinary citizens but continuing to draw rations and obtaining medical attention at the expense of the world's taxpayers -- all of them comfortably lumped together in official United Nations lists as Arab refugees and vehemently described as "victims of Jewish aggression."
I disagree that it's disproprtionate. Actually, the criticism is much broader and this is a short summary of one of the main points concerning UNRWA. It's perfectly fine as it is. Amoruso 10:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I see Katz being referenced as if he was a regular historian - yet no evidence for it is ever presented. He appears to claim that all the Palestinian refugees left because their own told them to. That's patently untrue, and looks a lot like nasty denial that has no place in here. Furthermore, it's backing for a meaningless propaganda claim, that because some Palestinians left because they were "told to" (5 or 10% by other accounts), therefore they're not entitled to return. The other major contribution I've seen from him is that the Palestinians were "all" (?) recent immigrants, a claim that is both highly unlikely and irrelevant and unpleasant. And it gets worse - when I see portions of his work, it's almost completely fact-free (like the paragraph I quoted above). I've never participated in any form of edit war, and I don't intend to start. But I'm greatly saddened to see tat being published as if it was history. PalestineRemembered 17:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Shmuel Katz is WP:RS and WP:V per google scholar and the fact his book is published on Bantam Books and very popular and respected. Nobody showed anything to contradict that except their own POV and political interests. Amoruso 09:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Who will ban me ? Wikipedia does come first, which is why they'll strip you of your adminstatorship status which is ridicilous, and then ban you for your consistent vandalism of well sourced respected scholar materials like Shmuel Katz. Stop disrupting wikipedia. Google scholar of battleground: [21] and google: [22] end of story. Amoruso 12:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Rrburke. Btw, you should cite Kal Korff's book. I'd assume you didn't just google to try to find a Bantam book that sounds ridicilous ( WP:AGF) but you were terribly mistaken. It's a very good research and one of its conclusion actually is that there were no UFO's in that incident. You cited a good example of a book that did research on this subject and therefore on subjects relating to Roswell he's an excellent source. On subjects relating to the Arab Israeli conflict, Katz is an excellent source. Quite simple. In fact, Kal IS indeed cited quite largely in wikipedia here Roswell UFO incident, feel free to add more citations although it seems his book was published by Prometheus Books and not Bantam books. Amoruso 13:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is this such a dilemma? Why don't we just say "Katz found that..." or "Katz says that..." and have it over with. -- Shamir1 05:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Again, we can just write "Katz says this..." or "Katz says that...", I don't see it as a big deal. His work is widely-read scholarly material. -- Shamir1 03:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
He's quoted in google scholar [27] this link from there says scholar journals which quotes from The Johns Hopkins University Press... I don't know of any binding definition of scholar though nor is it any requirement for him to be for WP:RS which he is, while he has full references for anything. Amoruso 23:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC) ... I found more links to journals who cite Katz [28] [29]: Journal of Palestine Studies, Indiana University Press, Jewish History Amoruso 23:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't Syria included in the "Treatment in Arab countries" section? -- GHcool 22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
A column editiorial from Jewishworldreview is obviously POV and not a scholarly source. Neither is geocities. IF the statements can be cited to scholarly books, works or sites then they can be posted.
Amuroso, I'm sorry I removed the material [30] you reposted. You can clealry see that it was a mistake since i wrote "front page mag not scholarly source". I mean to remove something else, and will do so soon. Bless sins 03:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
i've deleted the following text from the history section. i suspect someone will put it back, but at least i'm registering my views that all of this stuff is irrelevant (and rather pov as well). the vicissitudes of unrwa refugee counts from 50 years ago are simply not encyclopedic. quotes from israeli scholars that unrwa figures are exaggerated don't belong here either. that's what references are for. it's enough to just list the range of quoted figures (400,000 - 900,000 or whatever), with references. Benwing 07:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
deleted text:
By 1950, according to United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), the number of registered refugees was 914,000. [8]. The U.N. Conciliation Commission attributed this discrepancy to, among other things, "duplication of ration cards, addition of persons who have been displaced from area other than Israel-held areas and of persons who, although not displaced, are destitute", and the UNWRA additionally attributed it to the fact that "all births are eagerly announced, the deaths wherever possible are passed over in silence", as well as the fact that "the birthrate is high in any case, a net addition of 30,000 names a year" (the UNWRA figures included descendants of the Palestinian refugees born after the Palestinian exodus up to June, 1951). By June, 1951 the UNWRA had reduced the number of registered refugees to 876,000 after "many false and duplicate registrations weeded out." [9].
However, this number is held to be exaggerated. Yehoshua Porath, a prominent Israeli scholar in the field of Palestinian history wrote in 1986:
I have removed {{ infobox ethnic group}} from this article because, as the name suggests, it's only supposed to be used for ethnic group articles. There's also already an infobox at the Palestinian people article. Khoi khoi 21:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Here are some problems I see with recent edits regarding sources:
Ramallite (talk) 16:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
These were all discussed in the past. The palestinian refugee issue is a controversial issue and we can certainly quote Israel's opinion on the subject. Katz' quote here was supported by Israeli prime ministers explicity by Menachem Begin and others and by content by all others... this is Israel's position. The syrian quote was discussed in the past in palestinian exodus article and affrimed. Amoruso 14:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
This article is blatantly POV and unfit to be in the encyclopedia in its present form. It should either be written in a fashion that is sensitive to the victims, or else it should be deleted.
The first sentence states "which Palestinians call the Nakba". That's equivalent to saying "which Jews call the Holocaust". We should either use the word that the victims are happiest with, or have some very good reason for applying our own.
The second sentence is a definition apparently worded to insult the victims, seeking to deny that most of them had very, very deep roots in this area. (Many of them must have been there for 2000 years, otherwise DNA would be unable to link some roots of the diaspora to the same region).
The third sentence says that the numbers involved are controversial. It's more or less complete red-herring and it's deliberately insulting. It's a favourite tactic of Holocaust deniers.
I've created articles before, but played little or no part in deleting them. I think this article is a good candidate for an AfD, "Article for Deletion". I'd appreciate advice on how to go about it. PalestineRemembered 20:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The argument "non-neutral point of view" (violates WP:NPOV) is often used, but often such articles can be salvaged, so this is not a very strong reason for deletion either.
i'm just wondering out loud on what User:PalestineRemembered would think if i say that the term "al-nakba" is insulting to the state of Israel? as if the creation of israel is "the great disaster". surely the palestinian exodus is a grave event for the palestinian people and i would not degrade or downplay on it like many arabs have done with the holocaust. but history tells us that these titles are very much politically motivated - otherwise, the palestinian exodus from kuwait (400,000 in one week) would have recieved a similar name. to place it in perspective, the jewish exodus from arab lands did not recieve such a polically motivated title. maybe the title fits because the arab refugees from palestine were never well recieved by the other arabs but i don't think that "the victims" point of view should allways be applied - and i give as example the battle of jenin and also place the innocent claims under further inspection with this link also: 1929 Hebron massacre. Jaakobou 00:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
i hope these, together with my previous comment, explain it better why it has an insulting intonation to israel and why it's a politicaly charged term and not an NPOV one (even arab wiki writes down both POVs on this). Jaakobou 10:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Too much undue weight is given in wikipedia to the fantastic myth of palestinian refugee. There are no refugees but justified population transfers have taken place as in every part of the world at the time, the uniqueness of this one is that it was made voluntary by the Arabs in Israel in order to assist the Arab Armies in their war against Israel so that accidentally no brethern will die in the expected genocide. Obviously if this involved any other parties it will no longer be discussed as it's a non-issue and not encyclopedic enough, it's just propaganda. I agree with PalestineRemembered that this article can be merged with Palestinian Exodus. Amoruso 12:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Many articles here on Wikipedia proove that it's impossible to make a NPOV article about something which is somehow political. Even when facts are agreed upon, their meaning can be disputed. Such article would never be accepted by everyone. TFighterPilot 16:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
WHy is there no mention that arabs living in what was then called the palestinian mandate were JORDANIANS. It was only after the birth of the state of Israel that they referred to themselves as palestinians. A seperate culture from the Jordanians. when, in fact, there is no separate culture or anything that distinguishes Jordanians from Jordanians (aka palestinians). As Walid Shoebat has said: "Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?" (shoebat.com) This is left out completely from the article. Meanwhile there are 10-13 "refuge" camps in Jordan. Where Jordanians calling themselves palestinians are camping out in their own country. They've made campgrounds and called them refuge camps all over the arab world. For what purpose? Just to vilify the Jews. Hence why they say a large percentage of "palestinians" are in Jordan. well, Duh, They're Jordanians. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians. Ah you know, except in most Arab lands, they're not allowed to hold government jobs, own land, get a passport, etc.
and Nakba is politically motivated and should not be used. it is clearly a POV that only arab muslims and their supporters use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.25.199 ( talk)
palestinians don't even speak the same dialect as the jordanians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.224.208.210 ( talk) 15:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Why does this article not talk about the reasons for the mass voluntary exodus of Arabs who were in the land of Israel. According to most sources they left because of pressure from big Arab countries and from fear of Jews. The Jews encouraged them to stay and offered them equal citizenship. Nekng ( talk) 07:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
"Voluntary" lacks nuance, esp. in the possibility of a war. Duress is implied. Part of the exodus was anyway forced. Louisar ( talk) 18:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Ya, your right, I should have not used the word "voluntary". Nekng ( talk) 20:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
[35] Zeq ( talk) 13:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed all the external links per Spam policy. There might have been few "worthwhile", but almost all of them were clearly not notable, unreliable, or did meet the necessary standards. I'm not arguing the merit, simply the rules.
Feel free to re-add external links that qualify, but we all know articles rarely need 25+ external links. Comments/suggestions/etc... appreciated! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 23:48, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to keep the current section as-is for now so try to avoid deleting whole paragraphs. As I said in summary, Morris is extremely biased and needs to be balanced off with another historian, or in this case a more expansive introduction paragraph. It needs more, and so I plan on revising in the next week or so when I have time but for now let's leave alone until we can come into a consensus. The last thing we need is an edit war. Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 10:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Also, I think we should delete this sentence: While the specifics of Morris' interpretations have been contested from both sides, many of his arguments, and those of the other Israeli "New Historians," have become widely accepted within Israeli academic and public circle
I've read several of Morris' books and I know for a fact they are widely criticized (and praised) among Israeli academics. The above sentence implies a rather universal/majority acceptance, when that is clearly not the case. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 10:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Do you believe the article is neutral? I surely don't, and I can link this article to another Israel/Palestinian discussion which will hopefully allow other people to voice their opinion. I've explained why there is a POV issue and provided reasonable evidence to back it up. It's not just "I don't like it", there are plenty of other historians in Israel and the World who have a totally different viewpoint than Morris. I'm not arguing a this or that approach, but to infer that Morris is the end all be all fact-maker is rather silly and to deny there needs to be a balance, well....is odd. I'll summarize my basic points because I know if I write a super long argument most people tend to latch on what is easiest to refute and ignore everything else, so don't take it personal:
To start, Benny Morris is a self-proclaimed " New Historian," a moderately controversial stance as it challenges the governmental opinion and activities with the Palestinians since the day of independence. That in itself is reason for a neutrality issue, simply because Morris has aligned himself with what is basically an anti-Israel group of academics/writers. This doesn't mean everything he says is complete and utter bullshit, but if the article is dependent on his analysis most of the time, it is more than reasonable to say there is a neutrality problem. Ok, so now we've established who Morris is, now I'll quote the article.
The concluding sentences are clear and most obvious POV. My challenges are in parenthesis:
Here, Arabs fled fearing atrocities (This is an easy generalization, it paints a broad brush and established and either or situation. Not all "Arabs" fled fearing atrocities, in fact many were unaware until after they actually occurred. Second, what constitutes atrocity? There were several Jewish groups who truly wanted to exterminate all Arabs, but it wasn't the majority and the general consensus was to remove Arabs who posed a threat to the Jewish state, not so much kill the evil Arabs. It might seem rather odd to justify this, but the Arabs/Muslims dominated the region for over a thousand years, imprisoning Jews, Christians, anyone who challenged the status-quo through economic, social, and educational limitations a.k.a dhimmi) or were expelled if they had not fled. The violent expulsion was also in response to the exodus of Jews. It was definitely a tit or tat game except the Jews responded with 9 tits for every tat, more or less.) [10] During Operation Hiram, at least nine massacres of Arabs were performed by IDF soldiers. [11] After the war, from 1948 to 1950, the IDF cleared its borders, which resulted in the expulsion of around 30,000 to 40,000 Arabs. [12]
While the specifics of Morris' interpretations (This is a weird term. We use Morris's opinions as factual evidence, and then go around and say it was an interpretation. It doesn't make sense.) have been contested from both sides (This is good. We can use this to expand and list opposing arguments, but we should first rewrite or readd more "interpretations" to balance Morris' opinion.) many of his arguments have become widely accepted among Israeli " New Historians," and other academic and public circles. (Too vague. New Historian is an extreme minority among Israeli historians, we're overstating their popularity with words like 'widely accepted' because it doesn't clarify just how small New Historians are, even in the article itself it doesn't mention it as far as I know. 'Other academic and public circles' is also too vague and leaves an unsettling feeling of ambiguity that should be answered.) [13]
Whether or not Israeli schools use Morris' books are totally irrelevant. Schools also use pro-Israeli text, and neutral and every other perspective. I hope this clarifies my approach and it wasn't meant to be a disaster as you have inferred lol. ; ) Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 23:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't have time to pilpul and answer such questions as this one : "can you tell me what ISN'T POV?". You are perfectly aware that the one who claims something is poved has to explain the sentence that would be poved clearly in order to modify or to improve this. I have nothing against that. But not time to hear you just claiming
WP:I DON'T LIKE IT, my force a tag on the section. How many edits do you have on the main and how many on talk pages ?
About the sentences with 4-5 wonderful websites as sources, the 2nd line of the section says exactly the same, with 9 academic books. I added these to answer your comments.
We can keep this article the way it is currently.
Ceedjee (
talk)
18:02, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Again, if you asked me the same questions, and each time I've responded. I will reiterate: There is nothing particularly wrong with Morris' analysis, but as I've said he is a controversial figure. I personally don't see anything majorly wrong with his opinion, but it's just that...an opinion. If you want someone to pick a part the POV-pushing, go to the Israel portal and find a pro-Israel user. With time, I'm sure he will. This isn't so much a personal issue or imposing my version of the section as it is promoting NPOV and ensuring all sides are heard. Is this enough clarification? Again, I never made fun of you, ever. I really don't understand why this debate because I don't believe I should have to re-answer every single question. You could very well repeat your exact post no matter how insightful/valid my comments are, because you aren't listing your disagreements exactly. Therefore, I will ask you questions: 1) Do you consider Morris a controversial figure? 2) Do you consider the current section NPOV and balanced? 3) Do you believe the historical analysis attributed to Morris is undeniable inarguable fact and cannot be balanced with an alternative perspective from an equally notable expert?
That is all, Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 00:33, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
What is controversed and by who and where (wp:rs source, reference, page) ? :
Ceedjee ( talk) 10:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
A third opinion was requested for this talk page. Please describe briefly in this section what the disagreement is. Specifically each editor may want to briefly state what changes they would make (or not make) in the article. NJGW ( talk) 16:26, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
What are you asking? I'm confused, I thought I answered. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 00:08, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I've never said one way or the other, only asked questions to help me understand. Now that we have a clear statement of your intent: Ceedjee, are Morris' views currently considered mainstream (and do other's support his conclusions)? I notice that there are at least 3 variations of the story (which probably need to be corrected if they are to be included in the article): the Palestinians left of their own accord, the Palestinians were encouraged to leave, and the Palestinians were forced to leave. Ceedjee, can you write a section which incorporates all these views with the due weight given to each by the academic community? NJGW ( talk) 05:37, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
At this point I'm rather unmotivated to pursue further editing disputes beyond this, so whatever result occurs I will not object. Previous talk discussion was extremely time-consuming. : )
Ok, I've left a lot of info and perspective above. It might take awhile, but feel free to skim through the posts between Cee and I.
My points:
Section - 1948 Palestine War
For example, I don't believe this is a fair or neutral edit:
"Whereas historians now agree on most of the events of that period there is still disagreement on whether the exodus was the result of a plan designed before or during the war by Zionist leaders, or whether it was an unintended result of the war. [25]"
Haven't looked up the editor yet in history, but that kind of phrase is an extreme generalization. Morris' views, especially on this topic, have been disputed by several historians (including pro/anti). It's edits like these that make it incredibly difficult to keep up with the article, as not only do I have to focus on past edits, but future potentially-hazardous ones. Cee is a great editor, but this isn't going anywhere and even if you do conclude in an accommodating way (from my perspective hehe) I don't think I'll come back to this article unless there is strong collaboration. Hope I'm not crossing any lines here. Please understand, I've been as fair as I can be. Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 08:15, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
The section 1948 Palestine War is dedicated to be an introduction related to the 1948 Palestinian exodus and its causes. Therefore, it send the reader to the main articles on the topic.
There are 2 paragraphs in this section. The 1st one treats with the events and the second one with the causes. Everything is sourced. In the 2nd paragarph, there are 3 sentences :
My points are :
I am ready to make modifications but then, I'd like to know what precisely is bad and how to modify, ie, what particularly should be added, such as numerous events that would be contested or other analysis that are still debated today concerning the cause of the exodus. Ceedjee ( talk) 11:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
About the 3rd sentence of the 2nd paragraph, wikifan writes : "Haven't looked up the editor yet in history, but that kind of phrase is an extreme generalization. Morris' views, especially on this topic, have been disputed by several historians (including pro/anti). It's edits like these that make it incredibly difficult to keep up with the article, (...)
Ceedjee ( talk) 11:43, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm confused: Can you prove this? Evens so, Gelber and Karsh aren't the only "experts" on this article. There are thousands, and to believe "most" historians endorse Morris' analysis on this specific subject is inaccurate: "Whereas historians now agree on most of the events of that period." Hence, a sentence like that makes it "incredibly difficult to keep up with the article." Understand?
We've gone through this a billion times and it's gotten to a point where I just repeat myself until I give up, so I will summarize in bullets:
When does the 3rd opinion come? : ) Wikifan12345 ( talk) 21:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Same for me and I answer again.
There are no analysis of Morris in the article.
Once more. Please, be more precise than just saying you have the feeling somebody is not neutral. Ceedjee ( talk) 07:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Very shortly. I suggest to remove the 2nd sentence of the 2nd paragraph. This is the only one where it is talked about Morris's work and it doens't bring any information in addition to 1st and 3rd sentence. Ceedjee ( talk) 07:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
source 6 - 15 is Morris' analysis, and that includes the majority of the info in the section. There is no justification for reducing my argument to "[Straw man|you have the feeling somebody is not neutral]", when I have provided overwhelming commentary and proposals to affirm my perspective. I like Morris personally. But my POV doesn't matter. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 07:21, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Wikifan: It seems obvious that Ceedjee knows a lot about this period in history, as well as about all the historians involved. It seems that the best course of action is to allow Ceedjee to write a section and evaluate the finished product.
Ceedjee: I think the article needs a section which includes as much of the information you provided (in your analysis of the various historians) as possible, though it should avoid unnecessary information overload (think signal-to-noise ratio). Extreme minority viewpoints--those notable enough to be mentioned--can be one or two sentences at the end (preferably with some note about why they are refuted), but views with wider acceptance should receive at least a paragraph which lays out the theory, its supporters, and their evidence. If this is done clearly and fairly, I see no reason to also include back-and-forth debate between the various theories.
To both Wikifan and Ceedjee: Part of the issue is that you do not speak to each other civilly. There are insinuations and snarky comments on both your parts which greatly reduce the good will of the other editor. From now own please make a great effort to re-read everything you write before you save it, and remove any statement which is not either a clear and concise suggestion to change text, or a simple rational for such a change. For the life of me I can't see where you actually disagree on anything, just that it seems you got off on the wrong foot somewhere.
Does this sound like a reasonable way to proceed to each of you? NJGW ( talk) 14:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Why does he get to do it? He is an editor with a strong opinion, not particularly objective nor impartial. He is the one promoting Morris from the get-go, obstructing any edit that might neutralize the section or facilitate an environment to insert an alternative perspective to Morris'. Again, I've listed my general and specific criticism in previous posts - search above and you should see a 8+ paragraph of my own personal analysis. But I will say again, our POV is irrelevant. If a notable expert has a specific opinion on a detail in the section that contradicts Morris', we are obligated to include it. Am I right here? Whether or not Morris is apologetic/critical is not my concern, neutrality is. what is your opinion NJGW? Like, what are your views of Israel? this might seem intrusive, but it seems relevant considering your hesitation for approaching Morris with a different expert...aside from Ceedjee. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 07:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I am open to move forward and try to add some points. But, understand that from my point of view, the current version is perfectly ok with npov, due weight and all wp:principles but I see that Wikifan disagrees.
Anyway, I agree to try to write something different or wider but I would like to have, even roughly, the points/mind/analysis that you think you should be added.
The causes (and in a way the responsabilities) of the 1948 Palestinian exodus are not in that summary. Is this what you expect to be added ? With the different wp:rs point of view on the topic ?
Ceedjee (
talk)
09:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Ceedjee (
talk)
09:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I think I can source this from different historians involved in the topic :
Ceedjee ( talk) 12:05, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
"However Resolution 194 refers to traditional (non-hereditary) refugees, not Palestinian refugees."
Can somebody please explain this...what do they mean when they say "Not palestinian refugees", do they mean that it only applies to the original refugees of the 1948 war and not their descendants (which number 4-5 million today)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.214.139.58 ( talk) 05:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding
this edit and the reverts to include it. The original says: "As a result of the
Six-Day War, around 280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians fled
[30] the territories occupied by
Israel during the war, including as a result of the demolition of the Palestinian villages of
Imwas,
Yalo, and
Beit Nuba,
Surit,
Beit Awwa,
Beit Mirsem,
Shuyukh,
Jiftlik,
Agarith and
Huseirat and the "emptying" of the refugee camps of ʿ
Aqabat Jabr and ʿ
Ein Sulṭān."
The edit changes this to: "As a result of the
Six-Day War, around 280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians fled
[31] the territories won by
Israel during the Six-day War, including as a result of the war, the destruction of the Palestinian villages of
Imwas,
Yalo, and
Beit Nuba,
Surit,
Beit Awwa,
Beit Mirsem,
Shuyukh,
Jiftlik,
Agarith and
Huseirat and the "emptying" of the refugee camps of ʿ
Aqabat Jabr and ʿ
Ein Sulṭān."
Now besides the obvious issue of "won" when the proper term used in every official document is "occupied" the edit changes the meaning of the last sentence. The original says that they left partly as a result of the destruction of the villages. The edited version is almost unintelligible saying that the villages were destroyed as a part of the war without that clause relating to the refugees. Now I have a feeling the editor who keeps putting this in
knows how WP works, but I invite that editor here to explain the changes.
Nableezy (
talk)
20:58, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
The reference for the sentence Although all Arab League members at the time- Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen- voted against the resolution (ref 38), is a dead link. Could someone rectify it? Eklipse ( talk) 11:51, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
There's a small edit war going on in the article that I'm bringing here involving the text below, and text quoted from a letter-to-the-editor of Benny Morris:
In "1948 and After", Morris estimates based on an Israeli intelligence report that among the first 391.000 refugees to flee, 73% of departures were caused directly by the Israelis. According to Morris, the rest of the Palestinian refugees were systematically expelled using force [32] Elsewhere Morris writes concerning Palestinians who left voluntarily intending to return, that "but if denial of the right to return was a form of "expulsion", then a great many villagers (...) can be considered "expellees"" [33].
The issue is that for some reason, Morris when discussing the topic outside his academic work (as in the letter-to-the-editor) appears to be a rather different person (I'm tempted to say his own evil twin). In my opinion we should quote him from the books as those are prepared carefully with the expectation that they will be subjects of close scrutiny. Outside the books, Morris has inter alia said that ethnic cleansing is in his view OK, as long as it's done by Israel. Alternatively, we can in my opinion reduce the space given to Morris in this article and cite Pappé and Khalidi in greater length. Even outside that context, more space to Khalidi would be appropriate, since he's not an Israeli unlike Morris, Pappé & co (nothing wrong with Israelis, but it's a good idea to have sources from other backgrounds too).
Concerning Tallicfan's specific comments, I'm well aware of what LMD is since I'm a subscriber, specifically because it's an excellent source of high-quality commentary. Regarding the 73% directly caused by Israelis, that's a direct citation from LMD: "This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis". -- Dailycare ( talk) 12:50, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Daily care, Dominique Vidal (ref 33) is not a reliable source to give Benny Morris's mind. As Zero points out just here above : the 73% comes from a Haganah reports Benny Morris reports. But eg in The Birth... Revisited, he explains that the cause of the 1st and the 2nd waves were a mixed of numerous reasons. It is not a good way of working to use an argument of Morris out of its context. To get the full picture, we need to use his conclusions. For the 3rd and the 4th wave, I don't think he says either that all' Palestinians were expelled but he talks about systematic expulsions. The nuance is that [only those who didn't flee] were expelled. Nevertheless, in his last book about the events (1948: a history of the First Arab Israeli WAr), he uses the words ethnic cleansing.
What you write sounds as if Morris would say that 70% of 350,000 + 100% of 400,000 = 655,000 were expelled by Israeli forces, which is completely biaising his discourse. In the introduction The Making of Israel, I think (it has to be checked but 80% sure) he says around half were expelled by Israelis.
What he says is enough. No need to go beyond.
81.244.34.203 (
talk)
20:21, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
. Trying to ascertain specific numbers and percentages for "blame" is impossible, counterproductive and inherently POV. Stellarkid ( talk) 01:33, 13 August 2009 (UTC)Unfortunately the Palestinians failed to produce and preserve 'state papers' from 1947-1949, and the Arab states - all dictatorships of one sort or another (military juntas, absolute monarchies, etc.) - refused and continue to refuse access to their papers from the 1948 war, which they regarded and still regard as a humiliating catastrophe.
Ethnic cleansing is an inflammatory and inaccurate word for people fleeing from a war situation, or running from a lost battle, or even for expulsions given the context. Benny Morris specifically denies that he believes the charge in his writings. What he says in an article in a non-RS site can be argued, but is not appropriate for this article. In Righteous Victims,(2001) page 257, he clearly says "There was...no systematic expulsion policy; it was never, ...discussed or decided upon at Cabinet or IDF general staff meetings." In his 2004 article in The New York Times Book Review [39], referring to "ethnic cleansing", he says " The Arabs have only themselves to blame for the (unexpected) results of the war that they launched with the aim of "ethnically cleansing" Palestine of the Jews. (Contemporary Arab apologists, always full of righteous indignation, conveniently forget this.)" Note the quotes he put around the phrase. Morris did not write the Counterpunch article but he did write the NY Times article. His view should be clear. Charges of ethnic cleansing do not belong in this article, as this view is highly POV as well as mistaken, nor does it accurately reflect Morris' thinking on the matter. Stellarkid ( talk) 16:25, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
First off, DailyCare, LMD is COMMENTARY. You just said it. They interpret things how they want to. This shows you're pushing a POV, and posting an article that interprets Morris unless it is Morris himself. Plus, saying the "73% caused directly by Israel" isn't Morris' actual message. The 55% of refugees fleeing because of IDF operations" can also be interpreted to mean that 55% fled because of military operations in a war the Arabs started. And this is what Morris means in his quote i posted about "the flail of war." There is nothing wrong with his quote, except you do not seem to like it, but you'll take an extremely biased magazine, LMD which is NOT Le Monde, and does not have the respect or NPOV credentials Le Monde itself can be said to have. Also, with Morris and "ethnic cleansing," a term that wasn't even around in 1948, he has said numerous times there was no grand plan and Plan D was not an ethnic cleansing plan per se. Tallicfan20 ( talk) 14:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)