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With respect to a comment that appeared in a previous thread that Palestine is recognized by 97 states, but not by the UN. It is difficult to estimate how many countries recognize Palestine. In some situations, recognition of other states is implicit. Many countries have a standing formal policy of only extending tacit recognition to other states, but not to their governments. In actual practice many states no longer make formal declarations regarding recognition. see for example pages 3-4 of Recognition of governments in international law, By Stefan Talmon
Despite the opinion of political pundits, there simply is no such thing as collective or universal recognition of states by the UN. There never has been any binding legal criteria that says that a UN member state must be sovereign or independent state either. Several of the founding members of the United Nations expressed concern over the use of the term "state" in article 4 of the Charter, and suggested that the term "nation" be substituted instead. The League of Nations had been open to membership by states, colonies, and commonwealth dominions. The independence and sovereignty of several countries at the San Franciso Conference was doubtful at best. In 1945 the Philippines and India were still months away from independence, and France was still occupying Lebanon and Syria. In fact, it still considered them to be under mandate. The two Soviet Federal Republics, Belorussia and the Ukraine, were not widely considered to be independent or sovereign either. Although the term "state" was retained, it was left undefined. Member states are under no obligation to recognize new members, even after they have been admitted. In actual practice many member states do not recognize each other.
When the juridical status of Palestine and the nascent state of Israel was questioned in 1948, the representative of the "Provisional" Government of Israel pointed out that:
"The act of determining whether a certain political unit is a State or not is known in international law as an act of recognition; and under the Charter, no Member State has surrendered to the United Nations or to any organ thereof its unlimited sovereignty to regard a political unit as a State." Mr Eban S/PV.340, the 340th meeting of the UN Security Council, 27 July 1948
In 1950 a suggestion was made that UN membership be adopted as a form of legal collective recognition, but the Secretary-General and Legal Affairs section advised that such a measure would require the adoption of an amendment to the UN Charter. Several of the modern members have been labeled "states for UN purposes only". They have been admitted despite treaty agreements or other conditions that are generally recognized as an impairment of their sovereignty, e.g. Monaco, Bhutan, San Marino, Liechtenstein, and etc. In some cases these members have only been recognized by four or five foreign diplomatic missions from other states. see pages 39-48 of Statehood and the law of self-determination, By D. Raič or page 46 of UNESCO's International Law.
Conversely, the General Assembly, Security Council, UNESCO, and UNHCR have established a number of special organs, such as Commissions or Committees, for the express purpose of establishing the State of Palestine, and to look after the "inalienable rights of the Palestinian people" - including the permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people over the natural resources of their territory. So, it is difficult to simply say that the UN has not recognized Palestine. harlan ( talk) 23:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the disagreement over the sourcing and description of factors following the second World War, would it possibly help if I created a subpage with relevant quotes from a random sampling of reliable sources? I have decent library access and it seems the best way to settle the issue would be to follow what reliable authorities have said on the matter. Thoughts? -- Vassyana ( talk) 12:44, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
"During the 19th century, the "Ottoman Government employed the term Arz-i Filistin (the 'Land of Palestine') in official correspondence, meaning for all intents and purposes the area to the west of the River Jordan which became 'Palestine' under the British in 1922". Neville J. Mandel (1976) The Arabs and Zionism Before World War I University of California Press, ISBN 0520024664 p xx, taken from References of Musa Alami page.
In the period following WWII there were no (significant) attacks or reprisals of the Irgun and Lehi and the Arabs. Also there were no attack on international delegates.
Another issue is the relations between the British Mandate and the US. It is simply completely out of place in such a general article to devote so many paragraphs to the issue. Mashkin ( talk) 19:22, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
The British High Commissioner, General Sir Alan Cunningham, noted in his reports that by late April the Jewish attacks had led to a crisis with ominous and intolerable implications for the British:
Recent Jewish military successes (if indeed operations based on the mortaring of terrified women and children can be classed as such) have aroused extravagant reactions in the Jewish press. . . .Jewish broadcasts, both in content and in manner of delivery, are remarkably like those of Nazi Germany. . . .on the roads, Hagana armoured cars are increasingly impudent and intrusive. . . . The Arabs of the large towns, who have borne the brunt of recent Jewish offensive action are . . . bitter against the British. . . .They must pin the blame on someone, and who [are] more deserving than the British?
This part of the article deals with the period between the World War II and the Partition resolution and deals with the reasons that the British decided to quit the Mandate. during that time you have various attacks against British related installations and individuals, not against Arabs. I have added a whole section regarding the Arab revolt, where such attacks are mentioned. Plan Dalet has nothing to do with this period. Mashkin ( talk) 09:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
harlan ( talk) 10:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I am not too enthusiastic about this comment, which is quite popular in Wikipedia - it is a wrong analysis by one involved party citing another one. I kept it here since it reflects sentiment. Mashkin ( talk) 09:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Try and limit the length of your responses and in particular make them to the point. Mashkin ( talk) 09:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
You have not pointed out a single attack on Arabs at the said period (45-47) - I looked up your references.
You are also inventing history as you like it. E.g. extending the period where British control was tenuous.
Note that the fact that the Irgun attacked Arabs in mentioned in the Ara Revolt section. The Semiramis Hotel is irrelevant for two reasons: it is part of the war following the partition resolution (which is covered next) and not the period leading to the end of the mandate and it is is not a deliberate attack on international delegates. You are taking a really out of place sentence the ascribed the Bernadotte Assassination to this period and trying to justify it. Mashkin ( talk) 10:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
In many cases Arabs lost their lives, or were wounded, as a result of attacks that were directed against the general population. Such as:
Some attacks were directed specifically at Arabs:
20 MAY 1947
At 20.15 hours on 20th May at Fajjeh near Petah Tiqva a number of armed Jews entered an Arab cafe and searched the occupants. On leaving they placed a mine in the building and fired a number of shots killing one Arab, seriously wounding three other Arabs and slightly wounding four Arabs. The mine was later detonated by Military completely wrecking the cafe. At 2100 hours on 20th May about 25 armed Jews entered Arab Serwarkeh Encampment near Petah Tiqva and opened fire on the inhabitants killing one Arab. A land mine was later found in the village.
FO 371/61776
21 MAY 1947
Jewish thugs beat up Arab Cafe near Fujja 14101660. Cafe demolished. 2 Arabs killed. Jews entered cafe at 2045 hours, ordered Arabs to stand and opened fire. Jews left mine in cafe which was detonated by Royal Engineer, wrecking cafe.
WO 261/568
21 JULY 1947
At 0120 hours a military camp in Haifa was attacked with grenades and machine-gun fire. No damage or casualties to security forces. One Jewish attacker fatally wounded. At 0350 hours a military installation in Haifa was attacked and radio equipment was destroyed by explosives. Four Palestinian S.P.'s injured, none seriously. One Arab civilian seriously injured by a mine. There was also extensive road mining.
FO 371/61776
13 AUGUST 1947
At 16.30 hours on 13th August a car containing two Jews deposited on a road near Petah Tiqva the body of an Arab as yet unidentified, possible Egyptian, who had been shot.
FO 371/678
13 AUGUST 1947
On 13 August, 50 armed Jews set fire to an Arab market in Abu Qabir. They razed the market to the ground. There was no resistance, and no casualties have been reported. Disturbances continued on 14 August in which casualties were inflicted by both sides. A Jewish timberhouse was set on fire, and a bus and several cars were burnt. After 2300 hours, all was quiet, although tension still existed. Total casualties up to morning of 15 August were 8 Jews dead and 25 wounded, 9 Arabs dead and 46 wounded. These figures include the Hawaii Cabaret incident.
WO 275/64
14 AUGUST 1947
At 23.00 hrs. 14th August an Arab watchman at a factory in Ramat Gan was abducted by Jews. His body was found in an orange grove at the rear of the factory at 09.00 hours 15th August. He had been stabbed to death.
FO 371/61783
15 AUGUST 1947
01 -20 hours on 15th August a party of 30-35 Jews in khaki shirts and shorts and armed with automatic weapons approached an Arab owned building in an orange grove near Petah Tikvah. 16 Arabs were sleeping in and around the building. As the Jews approached, they split up, several entering the building, and all firing indiscriminately. The Arabs scattered, but four (2 Egyptians, 1 Palestinian and 1 Hedjazi) were shot dead. At 01.47 hours the building was almost completely demolished by an explosion, probably electrically detonated. 3 males and 4 females are believed to be buried in the debris.
FO 371/61783
15 AUGUST 1947
At 09.30 hrs. 15th August near Jaffa, a party of Jews stabbed and killed two Arab watchmen, one of whom was a boy aged thirteen. At 17.00 hours 15th August in Jaffa, three Jews entered an Arab grocer's shop, damaged interior fittings and poured paraffin over the contents. They were then prevented from setting fire to the shop by local Jewish residents. FO 371/61783 15 AUGUST 1947 At 0935 hours on 15th August at Kilo 54 on the Jaffa- Jerusalem road an Arab in a car was attacked by Jews. He was not injured but his car was burnt out.
FO 371/61783
17 AUGUST 1947
At 1550 hours 17th August an Arab was attacked by Jews in a cafe in Tel Aviv near the Jaffa border. He escaped into the street where he was attacked by other Jews, stabbed and fatally injured. At 1915 hours 17th August an Arab was attacked by a Jew on Tel Aviv sea front and slightly injured.
FO 371/61783
29 SEPTEMBER 1947
On the morning of 29 September, the Irgun Z'vai Leumi carried out a fiendish attack on the Central Police Station at Haifa as a reprisal for the deportation of the "Warfield" and "Farida" passengers. At approximately 0600 hours, a civilian truck came momentarily to a standstill against the perimeter wire of the Police Station, and from a specially constmcted ramp built at right angles to the truck, a composite charge on wheels consisting of approximately 500 lbs of explosive was released. After clearing the wire, the bomb came to rest by the wall of the Police Station; and a few seconds later exploded with tremendous force, severely damaging the Police Station and shops in the vicinity. The casualties caused by the outrage were: 4 British Constables killed, 2 Palestinian Constables killed, 2 TACS killed, 4 Civilians Killed, 13 British Constables seriously wounded, 16 British Constables slightly wounded, 14 Jewish Civilians injured, 11 Arab Civilians injured.
WO 275/64
6 OCTOBER 1947
On 6 October, a party of Jews attacked an Arab encampment near Petah Tiqva, killing two and wounding four others. It is believed that the attack was in the nature of a reprisal for the murder of two Jews in the same area on 4 October.
WO 275/64
13 NOVEMBER 1947
4 British civilians shot at when getting out of taxi in Hadar Hacarmel, Haifa. 4 British civilians killed. 1 Arab injured. British civilians belonged to oil companies in Haifa.
WO 261/571
20 NOVEMBER 1947
At Ra'Anana 137176, a party of 5-8 Jews took 5 Arabs from their home and, after questioning, shot them. 4 Arabs murdered, 1 seriously wounded.
WO 261/571
harlan (
talk)
10:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
"As a result of the Arab Revolt and the Jewish Underground operations after 1939, the situation became unbearable to the British. Palestine became a millstone around their neck. The financial burden of Keeping 100,000 soldiers in a hostile area was enormous, especially as the British economy was almost bankrupt. The pressure of the British public to "bring the boys home" was great. They therefore elected to withdraw their forces and return the mandate to the United Nations, the successor to the League of Nations." see page 78 The Agony of the Promised Land, By Joshua Levy, iUniverse, 2004, ISBN 059532133X
You have a tendency to emphasize the ethnicity of the historian. It is irrelevant and annoying. Please stop. Mashkin ( talk) 10:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Her comments in the 19th century section should not be included for 2 reasons:
Many countries, including the United States, have diplomatic ties with the Palestinian Authority, and have recognized the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza as a "Country" for legal, economic, and political purposes. Dozens of other States have gone one step further and legally recognized that same national entity as the "State of Palestine". There have also been published reports of Israeli's who have accepted Palestinian citizenship and passports. see Israeli pianist Daniel Barenboim takes Palestinian citizenship.
All of that information is notable and applies to the "Current Status" section of this article, since it is NOT a proposal. An edit summary which simply claims that "there is no such place" is fatuous and unsupportable for the following reasons:
In the public international law of the Americas, recognition is strictly a bilateral agreement between two states. The parties to the Montevideo Convention On Rights and Duties of States, and the Charter of the Organization of American States have a conventional agreement that:
Recognition implies that the State granting it accepts the personality of the new State, with all the rights and duties that international law prescribes for the two States.
Last year the Forward Magazine reported that the Palestinian Authority had been working to expand the number of States that recognize Palestine as a Country. The State of Costa Rica went a step further, and opened diplomatic relations with the "State of Palestine". See Costa Rica Opens Official Ties With ‘State of Palestine’. Article 2 of The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations stipulates that the establishment of diplomatic relations between States, and of permanent diplomatic missions, takes place by mutual consent, so this wasn't merely a unilateral declaration on the part of the State of Costa Rica. The Palestinian Authority accepted the duties and obligations of a State when it signed the agreement.
There have been many other published, verifiable reports from WP:RS sources which explain that dozens of States in Latin America, Asia, Africa and Europe have recognized the country of Palestine as the "State of Palestine" too. For example, Palestinian Justice Minister Ali Kashan filed war crimes complaints against Israel with the International Criminal Court last January. Palestinian Foreign Minister Riad al-Malki announced that he had submitted documents to the ICC which proved Palestine was recognized as a "legal state" by 67 other countries, with the corresponding right under international law to accept the jurisdiction of the court, and request an investigation. see ICC prosecutor considers ‘Gaza war crimes’ probe.
The power to legally recognize any entity as a state is vested exclusively in other States. Disgruntled Wikipedia editors, Op-Ed pundits, and private political action committees have no legal standing to contest the matter. UNESCO's volume on International law explains:
there is no definition binding on all members of the community of nations regarding the criteria for statehood, and as long as there is no organ which could in casu reach a binding decision on this matter, the decision as to the statehood of an entity depends upon the other members of the community of nations. The governments of various states are the organs responsible for reaching individual decisions in a given case. The decision-making is called the recognition of states. The term signifies the decision of the government of an already existing State to recognize another entity as a State. The act of recognition is in fact a legal decision which depends on the judgment of the recognizing government. see "IV Recognition of States", beginning on page 47 of International Law
US law and regulations provide a legal definition of the term: 'Country. "Country" means the political entity known as a nation.' See for example, 19 C.F.R. PART 134.1 Definitions. The US State Department has determined that the West Bank and Gaza are a single political entity that satisfies that definition.
On October 24th, 1994, the Department of State advised the Department of the Treasury that, in view of certain developments including the Israeli-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements, the primary purpose of 19 U.S.C. 1304 would be best served if goods produced in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were permitted to be marked ‘‘West Bank’’ or ‘‘Gaza Strip.’’ US Customs acted on that advice from the Department of State, and made a determination regarding the ‘‘country of origin’’ for those goods for marking purposes. Customs notified the public in T.D. 95–25 that, unless excepted from marking, goods produced in the West Bank or Gaza Strip shall be marked as ‘‘West Bank,’’ ‘‘Gaza,’’ or ‘‘Gaza Strip.’’ The T.D. further stated that the country of origin markings of such goods shall not contain the words ‘‘Israel,’’ ‘‘Made in Israel,’’ ‘‘Occupied Territories-Israel,’’ or words of similar meaning.
The President subsequently declared duty-free treatment for products of the West Bank and Gaza Strip by Presidential Proclamation 6955 dated November 13, 1996/ In a letter dated January 13, 1997, the Department of State advised the Department of the Treasury that the Palestinian Authority had asked that the U.S. accept the country of origin marking ‘‘West Bank/Gaza’’ so as to reaffirm the territorial unity of the two areas. The Department of State further advised that it considers the West Bank and Gaza Strip to be one area for political, economic, legal and other purposes. see DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY, Customs Service, T.D. 97–16, Country of Origin Marking of Products From the West Bank and Gaza.
The EU also considers the West Bank and Gaza to be a Country. see EU Neighborhood Policy, Country Report, Palestinian Authority of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The U.K. plans to introduce requirements to properly label West Bank produce for country of origin. A BBC report stated that
the British Government believes that Israeli settlements on occupied territory are illegal. So does every other government in the world, except for Israel. For that reason goods produced on settlements in the West Bank are not supposed to benefit from a free trade agreement between the EU and Israel. They are supposed to be subject to import duty. see Concern over Israel settlement exports
Nothing prevents individual States from recognizing that country, or political entity, as a State. harlan ( talk) 14:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
In the many documents given by Harlan Wilkerson here above, there is this article John Quigley's article on the Issue of Palestinian Statehood and the ICC it is written :
It refers to the GA resolution 43/177, U.N. GAOR, 43d Sess., U.N. Doc. A/RES/43/177 (Dec. 15, 1988), available
here.
This resolution states indeed that :
So, even if WP:IDONTLIKEIT because it is particular to acknowledge the proclamation of a State without precise borders (we just know they are inside the former Palestine), that's it : a Palestinian State exist. (NB: GA didn't acknowledge the choice of Jerusalem as capital).
Ceedjee ( talk) 07:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Howard Sachar's book on page 87 says the Arab population in 1881 was 470,000. On page 167 he says in 1882 the Arab population "barely reached 260,000". Did 210,000 people leave or die in one year? Also on page 167 he says "the increase between 1922 and 1946 was 118 percent, a rate of almost 5 percent annually" but 118 percent in 24 years is only about 3.5 percent annually. Then he makes, perhaps as a result of this mistake, an unsourced claim about immigration. Clearly Sachar has his numbers all in a knot and quoting him on population is silly. Zero talk 14:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC) Zero talk 10:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
A group of notable legal scholars and practitioners, including the former UN Special Rapporteur on the Occupied Palestinian Territories, concluded that Israel's practices in the Occupied territories of Palestine violate international law norms regarding colonialism and the crime of apartheid as defined in international law. Their published report is notable. It called on Israel to correct the situation, and suggested that an advisory opinion of the ICJ be urgently requested on the question. The crime of apartheid is an indictable offense, which is subject to universal jurisdiction in many other states.
This study was commissioned and coordinated by the Middle East Project (MEP) of the Democracy and Governance Program, a research program of the Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa, (HSRC). The HSRC is the state of South Africa's statutory research agency.
The Council conducted a 15-month long review of Israel's practices in the occupied territory of Palestine. The study was conducted by a team of international legal scholars from the law faculties of a number of institutions that are WP:RS sources: the Minerva Centre for Human Rights, Hebrew University (Jerusalem), the University of London's Middle East, School of Law, School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), the South African Institute for Advanced Constitutional, Public, Human Rights and International Law (Johannesburg), the Center for Human Rights, University of Pretoria, and the Department of Foreign Affairs, Government of South Africa (Pretoria). Many legal practitioners from organizations such as Adalah – The Legal Centre for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, and Al-Haq (West Bank affiliate of the International Commission of Jurists) also consulted and contributed. harlan ( talk) 01:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
This treaty does not constitute any fresh departure. It has for long been the established procedure of the public law of Europe that when a State is created, or when large accessions of territory are made to an established State, the joint and formal recognition of the Great Powers should be accompanied by the requirement that such States should, in the form of a binding International convention undertake to comply with certain principles of Government. In this regard I must recall for your consideration the fact that it is to the endeavors and sacrifices of the Powers in whose name I am addressing you that the Polish nation owes the recovery of its independence. It is by their decision that Polish sovereignty is being restored over the territories in question, and that the inhabitants of these territories are being incorporated into the Polish nation.... ...There rests, therefore, upon these Powers an obligation, which they cannot evade, to secure in the most permanent and solemn form guarantees for certain essential rights which will afford to the inhabitants the necessary protection, whatever changes may take place in the internal constitution of the Polish State.' Sovereignty, Stephen D. Krasner, Princeton University Press, 1999, ISBN 069100711X, page 92-93
In most civilized legal systems it is recognized that legal rights may only be exercised conditioned upon compliance with legal duties. The refusal of the State of Israel to comply with the nondiscriminatory requirements of the Palestine partition resolution, its main claim to title, puts in serious jeopardy its claim to legal title to the limited territory allocated to it by the resolution.
You are certainly entitled to your private opinion about the status of statehood, but I don't think you are entitled to spoil the editing environment or delete well-sourced article content on that basis. The talk pages and archives contain dozens of requests that this article be treated in the same manner as the articles on other countries, like the State of Israel. That article does not begin with 100K of anachronistic stone age history. If this article gets too long, then I propose that the ancient history be moved into separate articles. In some cases those articles already exist under much more appropriate names.
During his previous term as Prime Minister, Mr. Netanyahu warned that a unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood would stop the peace process. After years of delay and the recent attacks on Gaza, the Palestinian authorities went ahead and made a formal declaration of statehood to the International Criminal Court. They also provided bilateral declarations that proved dozens of other states had already recognized the State of Palestine. The Prosecutor's Office website says their officials are currently conducting a preliminary analysis of situations in a number of countries - including Palestine. see ICC - Palestine. Those facts are really no longer debatable.
The international community of nations deals with Palestine on the assumption that either a de facto or de jure partition has occurred. It also assumes that Palestine is the legitimate sovereign in at least some of the territory of the pre-partition era country of Palestine. Recognition does not require that there be formal declarations or certainty about the borders of a state. Israel is also recognized by many states, although its borders are not defined, and its own territorial claims are widely discounted. The bottom line is: that there are millions of Palestinians; they have their own national authorities; they own land and property; Israel has stated that they legally reside in territory beyond its sovereign jurisdiction; and nothing in the world prevents other states from recognizing that political, economic, and legal entity as the State of Palestine. You can read all about that in the Rutgers Law review article and in the other publications I've mentioned. If you'd like to keep this fruitless discussion going, then I suggest we move it into dispute resolution or Arbcom. harlan ( talk) 14:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I pointed out earlier that Wikipedia policy says no one owns the articles or the term "Palestine". I've gotten tired of the merry-go-round nature of the discussion with you. If you want to add material from a reliable published source that's fine, but your attempts to issue "no edit orders" leave me underwhelmed. harlan ( talk) 20:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Okedem, Palestine is a Country situated in the geographical and historical area called Palestine. That is a notable and verifiable published fact. It is the homeland of an internationally recognized Nation. This article mentions the other countries (the British Mandate and Israel) and their associated categorizes, like Zionism. There is no valid reason not to mention the country or state of Palestine and its associated categories. Continued attempts to delink the articles and categories without obtaining a consensus from the members of the Palestine Project, or the Outline of Knowledge Project seem pretty dubious. You continue to make edits that are vouched only by your own personal say-so, although you have been repeatedly asked to provide verifiable published sources to support your edits. NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Your personal opinion has been given WP:UNDUE weight.
Recognition is a legal status. The published sources that I cited do not say that the State of Palestine was "partially recognized", so they do not support your WP:Synth revision.
The State of Israel agreed that the West Bank and Gaza would be treated as a single territorial unit as part of the Declaration of Principles (“DOP”) on Interim Self-Government. The US government granted a request from the Palestinian National Authority for recognition of the West Bank and Gaza as a country in view of developments which included the Israeli-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements. The Department of State advised the other agencies of the Executive branch that the West Bank and Gaza Strip were considered one area for political, economic, legal and other purposes. That policy is reflected in Title 19 of the Code of Federal Regulations, but it was not limited solely to the sphere of tax collections.
The US Library of Congress (LOC) lists the Occupied Territories, West Bank, and Gaza as a Nation. The LOC's Multinational Legal Guides lists the jurisdiction as "Palestine" and provides information on the Constitutional history back to the mandate era in "Constitutions of Dependencies & Special Sovereignties", 1975 (with supplements through 2008).
Many parastatial and international organizations followed the DOP guidelines and recognized the territory as a country. The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority has established .ps as the top-level country-code for "Palestinian Territory, Occupied". The ISO Maintenance Agency lists the country name and country elements as "Palestinian Territory, Occupied", Alpha-2 code "PS", Alpha-3 code PSE, numeric code 275. The International Olympic Commission and FIFA formulate their own codes and names that differ from the ISO codes in many cases. The IOC has recognized the National Olympic Committee of "Palestine", Country Code "PSE", since 1996. The FIFA Integration Guidelines, Country and Confederation codes, lists "Palestine" and "PLE". harlan ( talk) 14:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I only used the Federal Register to demonstrate that the area has been designated as a Country. All of those are located in some geographical region - without exception. The ISO, IOC, and etc. are secondary sources that confirm that it is a country. As the Countries cat and the Federal Code of Regulations explains, many countries, like the British mandate, are territories or dependencies. The Forward Magazine article in the same footnote demonstrated the recognition of the "State of Palestine" by the State of Costa Rica. It didn't use the term "partial" or rely on statements by PNA officials.
Reading the public notices that appear in the Federal Register, and citing what the State Department and Treasury Department have to say for themselves in a footnote is not a violation of WP:NOR. Similarly, the definition of the term "Country" that they used comes from the applicable preamble of the Federal Code of Regulations subsection that they were quoting. Their statements and that definition did not originate with me, or any other Wikipedia editor. WP:NOR says that primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia. The Treasury Department says that the territory has been legally designated as a Country of origin, and that the State Department says the West Bank and Gaza Strip are considered one area for political, economic, legal and other purposes. The Library of Congress also cites several secondary sources for the jurisdiction of Palestine and lists the Occupied West Bank and Gaza, including the areas under the control of the PNA as a "Nation". The Federal Code says:
(a) Country. “Country” means the political entity known as a nation. Colonies, possessions, or protectorates outside the boundaries of the mother country are considered separate countries.
(b) Country of origin. “Country of origin” means the country of manufacture, production, or growth of any article of foreign origin entering the United States. & etc...
I'm not aware of any policy which states that country categories can't be linked to geography articles that mention the history and geography of countries in their wikitext. In fact, I think that is the criteria for cat tagging such an article. The country of Palestine is located in this geographical region. Israel, the British Mandate, Palestine, and etc. are (or were) Arab speaking countries. harlan ( talk) 23:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
"Why...does Israel direct straight to the modern nation-state, while Palestine directs to this hotchpotch of borders, refugees, and history? The commonest referent of "Palestine" in modern discourse is far and away the nation and would-be state, as a quick Google check [7] confirms; and "Israel" has at least as much historical ambiguity to it as "Palestine" (see Israel (disambiguation)), so that's not a reason. I suggest applying the same solution as in the case of Israel: adding a disambig page and reserving this page for facts the modern-day State of Palestine and Palestinian Authority. - Mustafaa 09:50, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)" from Talk:Palestine/Archive 6#Why...
Some time back there was a long discussion about this. THE Hebrew name of the COUNTRY -- not the future name of the future state -- is ארץ ישראל . This is true for any form of Hebrew for more than 2000 years. The easiest way to check is to click on the link for "'ivrit/עברית" on the left of the article "Palestine". the complicated way is to read the discussion in the archives.
If anyone has a new (or good) argument against puting the proper Hebrew name at the beginning of the article (instead one of two common transcriptions of the Latin name), I am eager to read it. 85.178.115.110 ( talk) 06:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. Jafeluv ( talk) 21:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Palestine → Palestine (region) — As editors have repeatedly removed information on a state that has received recognition from around 100 other countries and representation in a number of international organizations (see above section), I propose moving this page to Palestine (region) and having Palestine be a disambig page to both this article and State of Palestine and Palestinian territories which are the three most common meaning for the word "Palestine" - nableezy 21:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Frankly the discussion has drifted sideways into flawed rationalizations. 114 countries legally recognize part of the region of Palestine as the State of Palestine. That fact is going to get mentioned in the lede no matter what you rename the article, or the disambiguation page. The Palestinians were redesignated "Palestine" after their 1988 declaration of statehood, but there's no rush to rename articles like Israel, Palestinians, and the United Nations in order to conform to the official UN designations. Another problem with the UN analogy is that the Question of Palestine dealt with the disposition of the Mandate. The law library at the Library of Congress says those were States, not regions. The American Law Encyclopedia Vol 3. entry on Dependent States says the same thing. According to Palestine Remembered, that's also the juridical setting for the Nakba (e.g. Deir Yassin happened April 1948). That means two out of the three examples you employed are states called Palestine, not regions.
Between the 5th and 6th talk archive listing above, there is a merge with: Talk:Palestine (region)/Archive. That archive contains this entry: Renamed: Region of Palestine -> Palestine (region). The notion that the article can't be renamed Palestine (region) by an ordinary user begins to look pretty farfetched. There was an article here about Palestine before that merge, and it wasn't limited to regional topics. The same editor who announced that move, also said he saw no reason to have a Palestine disambiguation page at all. In Talk:Palestine/Archive 5, Using the most current definition of Palestine he said this article ought to be merged with History of Palestine. That page used to have material forked from this article, but nowadays it's just a redirect page for History of the Southern Levant. The Outline of Palestine uses that page as a result of the redirect. No one seems to mind the "huge shift in usage" after 2000 years of consistently calling it Palestine, Southern Syria, Eretz Yisroel, or the dozen or so other terms listed under names and boundaries in this article. A couple of weeks ago, the same editor said that 'The "State of Palestine" has precious little to do with Palestine.' [8] I can only conclude that he or she isn't really very familiar with the most current usage.
After wasting 200K of talk page space claiming that everyone thinks of Palestine as a region, Okedem now claims that appending the term parenthetically (once again) requires some sort of huge shift in usage that hasn't occurred yet. He still says that a "Palestinian entity (authority, autonomy, state)" is an integral part of the region, so I don't think renaming the article will change the current situation. In international law there are very few (if any) universally recognized states. That only leaves non-state actors, internationally non-recognized states, and partially recognized states. Both Palestine and Israel are legally members of the latter category for treaty purposes and that can be verified by most of the Arab League states. harlan ( talk) 16:56, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
settle down boys and girls, lets stay on point |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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This article pretends to be about a geographical region named Palestine. There is however, no information on the geography of this region in the article. Instead, we have a huge section devoted primarily to the political history of Palestine. We also have a huge section on Demographics (which should be its own article Demographics of Palestine as discussed above).
I would like to propose a massive reorganization of this article. AllMost of the information pertaining to Palestine's history should be moved to
History of Palestine (which was rather strangely unilaterally redirected to
History of the Levant in December 2008 without any discussion). The demographics material should be moved to
Demographics of Palestine. This article, if indeed it is going to be confined to a discussion of Palestine as a geographical region, should feature information on the geography of Palestine, including Flora and Fauna, ecoregions, etc, etc.
Are there any objections or suggestions on alternate ways to reorganize this subject? Tiamut talk 11:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
The first paragraph there: "Though the Biblical tradition holds that the Israelites arrived in Canaan from Egypt, archaeological evidence suggests that if there was in fact a United Kingdom of Israel in this early period, it must have emerged from among the local population existent there at the time.[54] Excavations have established that the late 13th, the 12th and the early 11th centuries BCE witnessed the foundation of perhaps hundreds of insignificant, unprotected village settlements, many in the mountains of Palestine.[55] From around the 11th century BCE, there was a reduction in the number of villages, though this was counterbalanced by the rise of certain settlements to the status of fortified townships.[55]".
This entire paragraph doesn't make any sense now. The first sentence used to make sense, but doesn't any longer. I'll explain:
FWIW, Masoretic dating of the exodus places it at 1312 BCE with arrival into Israel at 1272 BCE. -- Avi ( talk) 18:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Online, not really. Most of my Masoretic knowledge comes from the original Hebrew texts of the TaNaKh and their Rabbinic commentaries; sorry. --
Avi (
talk)
18:48, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
As long as claims are properly sourced, there should be no issue. Of course there will be conflict between those who believe the archeology supports the Biblical claims and those that do not believe the archeology supports the Biblical claims; it's just another area of battle in the overall conflict, unfortunately. -- Avi ( talk) 01:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
it isnt even a country, why is there an article, someone show me where palestine is on a map please!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr spork32 ( talk • contribs) 04:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
according to the figures here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Demographics_in_the_late_Ottoman_and_British_Mandate_periods the jewish pop where 94.000 in 1914 and only 84.000 in 1922. I find that a bit hard to believe. According to Justin McCarthy there were about 59,000 Jews in Palestine in 1914, and 657.000 Muslim Arabs, and 81.000 Christian Arabs.-- Ezzex ( talk) 16:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, Jordan is also part of historic Palestine. That's changes the whole story now, doesn't it? Jordan is occupying Palestinian land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.101.34 ( talk) 19:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Wrong. The British imperialist bigots partitioned the middle east (and Jordan). With a common school ruler it seems. 84.215.43.102 ( talk) 14:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
This book is used as a citation in the Origin of Name section. If possible, I would like to know what is the specific text in those two pages of the book that are used as a citation that bases the claim about "Muslim geographers". Thanks John Hyams ( talk) 13:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Is absolutely a reliable source. A full professor at a major university with the book published by reputable publisher is a reliable source. There is also a noticeboard discussion where nearly every uninvolved editor agreed he is a reliable source. Please dont distort policy around your political feelings. nableezy - 07:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
The text in question is not very good. The information is rock solid, but Pappe didn't have much to do with exposing it. I don't think Pappe is needed here. The basics of the story have been known for ages (eg "O Jerusalem", 1972) but Avi Shlaim in his book "Collusion across the Jordan" was the one mostly responsible for tapping the archival sources. I'm out of time today but if nobody else gets to it first I'll replace the text by a more precise account with one or two better sources. So don't waste time over the existing text. Zero talk 10:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Most of the authors were already listed in the Palestine Exodus sidebar. Flapan noted that the majority of Jewish casualties occurred outside the borders of the proposed Jewish state.
The individuals involved and other historians have also addressed the claim that no one abided by the 17 November 1947 agreement. Morris and General Glubb devoted entire books to the subject: The Road to Jerusalem: Glubb Pasha, Palestine and the Jews, by Morris; and A Soldier with the Arabs, by John Baggot Glubb. Bevin told the Prime Minister of Transjordan, Abul Huda, and Glubb not to invade the territory of the Jewish state. The British threatened to withhold the 2 million pound subsidy they provided annually to underwrite the Arab Legion. The Prime Minister told Bevin that the 9000-man force couldn't hope to occupy all of Palestine even if it had wanted to do so. The British had failed to maintain law and order in Western Palestine when they had more than 100,000 troops at their disposal, including the Arab Legion. There was never any intensive fighting between Jordan and Israel in the territory of the proposed Jewish state. harlan ( talk) 17:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
From the 20th Century onward this article is really about the State of Palestine, not the geographical region. It should be labeled as such. A great deal of historical information regarding the region of Palestine was deleted: [10]
The Palestine mandate was a State. It was a signatory to several international treaties in its own right and under its own name. Article 46 of the Treaty of Lausanne provided that the Ottoman Public Debt "shall be distributed . . . between Turkey" and, among others, "the States newly created in territories in Asia which are detached from the Ottoman Empire under the present Treaty." (28 League of Nations Treaty Series 11, 37). That provision was applied to the areas of Western Palestine and Transjordan under the British Mandate. In its Judgment No. 5, The Mavrommatis Palestine Concessions, the Permanent Court of International Justice decided that concessions granted Ottoman authorities were valid under Protocol XII of the Treaty of Lausanne which provided in part: "In the territories detached from Turkey under the Treaty of Peace signed this day, the State which acquires the territory is fully subrogated as regards the rights and obligations of Turkey towards the nationals of the other Contracting Powers . . . who are beneficiaries under concessionary contracts entered into before the 29th October, 1914, with the Ottoman Government or any local Ottoman authority. . . ." ( 28 League of Nations Treaty Series 203, 211.) see Marjorie M. Whiteman, Digest of International Law, vol. 1, US State Department (Washington, DC: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1963) pp 651-652 harlan ( talk) 19:00, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree that the 20th century section is one sided, because it seems to blame the indigenous Palestinians for the conflict between Palestinian Arabs and the Zionists and Jewish Settlers. The Mandate of Palestine is the last time the region of Palestine was entire (actually bigger than at any other time in it's history)so the comparison of Palestine to its political reality is valid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GCaisle ( talk • contribs) 02:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I want to comment on the fact no single source in the naming section refers to a specific territory or the whole region nor it would probably be possible to mine it out of their context. this should be clarified. some regions names pillistine throughout the ages refereed to different areas depending on the political context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.167.90 ( talk) 17:44, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
What is going on here? I added the meaning of the word פלשת in Hebrew to the article, and then "Zero000" violently deleted my edit without discussion and without providing convincing reasons for not including the current Hebrew translation of the word. Our short discussion was as follows:
So without even opening a discussion on this talk page, I am now blocked from even seeing the article when I am logged in! What kind of behavior is this??? John Hyams without logging in
84.229.58.22 (
talk)
23:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:John_Hyams"
But I have no time to deal with this now, I have bills to pay. 84.229.58.22 ( talk) 23:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I found this article called: The Big Map of the Empty Land (originally publish in makor rishon Israeli newspaper) and was wondering where to put it into the article. I adding text to describe this finding (under the permission of the author) but am not sure where to add it into the article. please review and help fit this in Talgalili ( talk) 09:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
During the period 1871 to 1878 a British research mission conducted a survey of the Land of Israel and prepared a map [1]. The scale of the map is 1 to approximately 63,000. Each centimeter on this map whose size is that of a large room, represents 630 meters in real dimensions. On the basis of this map one can determine which settlements existed in those years and their size. According to these details it is possible to estimate the size of the population there.
How the Map was Made: The Foundation of British Exploration of Palestine” created in 1865 by the elite of the British upper class of the time, Lords, academics, clergymen, and the very wealthy. The fund set up its goal to conduct researches in the fields of archeology, history, geography, and ethnography in what was then called “Palestine”. The expedition numbered several dozens of people, among them expert cartographers, and heading it were well-known people: Sir Charles Warren, Claude R. Conder, Horatio H. Kitchener. The project began in 1871 and completed in 1878. The production of the printed map lasted several years, and when it appeared it became the most detailed precise map of the Land of Israel. Due to its size, the map was printed in 26 separate sections, in four colors, by lithography.
What the map shows: The uniqueness of the map is that the British surveyors marked with great accuracy the borders of every settlement and noted in special colors the populated sections of the settlement. It is possible through this map to ascertain the size of each settlement in the Land during that period, from the Litani River in the north and as far south as Beer Sheba.
The map represents by cartography what Mark Twain described in a literary form: a desolate arid wilderness, almost empty. Using a ruler it is a simple matter to determine the size of each settlement. When examining the villages we see that their areas are tiny. The largest of them are 150 by 100 meters. They comprise barely two rows of houses. The color legend indicates that Acre, for example, was then only partially inhabited. Entire areas were empty of people, exactly as we had learned in school, and likewise the Jezreel Valley and the Jordan Valley and all the areas that the Jewish pioneers later brought to life.
Haifa is marked on the map by a rectangle of three by seven millimeters. Each millimeter represents 63 meters in actual terms. This means that the Haifa area was 190 by 440 meters in size. The German Colony is outside the Haifa perimeter, and each house is exactly drawn
Nazareth was then a little larger than Haifa. Its shape is in the form of a gourd whose longer end is 600 meters and its smaller end some 300 meters. Even Tiberias is larger than Haifa – 300 by 600 meters. “Greater” Jaffa was only a little town – 240 by 540 meters. Shekh Munis, where the Tel Aviv University now stands, was a tiny village 90 by 180 meters. So, also, Usfiyeh, Yehud, and many other villages.
Jerusalem, within its walls, was, in fact, large – 1000 by 1000 meters. There was nothing outside the walls, and we know (not from the map) that within its walls there was always a Jewish majority.
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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 14 |
With respect to a comment that appeared in a previous thread that Palestine is recognized by 97 states, but not by the UN. It is difficult to estimate how many countries recognize Palestine. In some situations, recognition of other states is implicit. Many countries have a standing formal policy of only extending tacit recognition to other states, but not to their governments. In actual practice many states no longer make formal declarations regarding recognition. see for example pages 3-4 of Recognition of governments in international law, By Stefan Talmon
Despite the opinion of political pundits, there simply is no such thing as collective or universal recognition of states by the UN. There never has been any binding legal criteria that says that a UN member state must be sovereign or independent state either. Several of the founding members of the United Nations expressed concern over the use of the term "state" in article 4 of the Charter, and suggested that the term "nation" be substituted instead. The League of Nations had been open to membership by states, colonies, and commonwealth dominions. The independence and sovereignty of several countries at the San Franciso Conference was doubtful at best. In 1945 the Philippines and India were still months away from independence, and France was still occupying Lebanon and Syria. In fact, it still considered them to be under mandate. The two Soviet Federal Republics, Belorussia and the Ukraine, were not widely considered to be independent or sovereign either. Although the term "state" was retained, it was left undefined. Member states are under no obligation to recognize new members, even after they have been admitted. In actual practice many member states do not recognize each other.
When the juridical status of Palestine and the nascent state of Israel was questioned in 1948, the representative of the "Provisional" Government of Israel pointed out that:
"The act of determining whether a certain political unit is a State or not is known in international law as an act of recognition; and under the Charter, no Member State has surrendered to the United Nations or to any organ thereof its unlimited sovereignty to regard a political unit as a State." Mr Eban S/PV.340, the 340th meeting of the UN Security Council, 27 July 1948
In 1950 a suggestion was made that UN membership be adopted as a form of legal collective recognition, but the Secretary-General and Legal Affairs section advised that such a measure would require the adoption of an amendment to the UN Charter. Several of the modern members have been labeled "states for UN purposes only". They have been admitted despite treaty agreements or other conditions that are generally recognized as an impairment of their sovereignty, e.g. Monaco, Bhutan, San Marino, Liechtenstein, and etc. In some cases these members have only been recognized by four or five foreign diplomatic missions from other states. see pages 39-48 of Statehood and the law of self-determination, By D. Raič or page 46 of UNESCO's International Law.
Conversely, the General Assembly, Security Council, UNESCO, and UNHCR have established a number of special organs, such as Commissions or Committees, for the express purpose of establishing the State of Palestine, and to look after the "inalienable rights of the Palestinian people" - including the permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people over the natural resources of their territory. So, it is difficult to simply say that the UN has not recognized Palestine. harlan ( talk) 23:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the disagreement over the sourcing and description of factors following the second World War, would it possibly help if I created a subpage with relevant quotes from a random sampling of reliable sources? I have decent library access and it seems the best way to settle the issue would be to follow what reliable authorities have said on the matter. Thoughts? -- Vassyana ( talk) 12:44, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
"During the 19th century, the "Ottoman Government employed the term Arz-i Filistin (the 'Land of Palestine') in official correspondence, meaning for all intents and purposes the area to the west of the River Jordan which became 'Palestine' under the British in 1922". Neville J. Mandel (1976) The Arabs and Zionism Before World War I University of California Press, ISBN 0520024664 p xx, taken from References of Musa Alami page.
In the period following WWII there were no (significant) attacks or reprisals of the Irgun and Lehi and the Arabs. Also there were no attack on international delegates.
Another issue is the relations between the British Mandate and the US. It is simply completely out of place in such a general article to devote so many paragraphs to the issue. Mashkin ( talk) 19:22, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
The British High Commissioner, General Sir Alan Cunningham, noted in his reports that by late April the Jewish attacks had led to a crisis with ominous and intolerable implications for the British:
Recent Jewish military successes (if indeed operations based on the mortaring of terrified women and children can be classed as such) have aroused extravagant reactions in the Jewish press. . . .Jewish broadcasts, both in content and in manner of delivery, are remarkably like those of Nazi Germany. . . .on the roads, Hagana armoured cars are increasingly impudent and intrusive. . . . The Arabs of the large towns, who have borne the brunt of recent Jewish offensive action are . . . bitter against the British. . . .They must pin the blame on someone, and who [are] more deserving than the British?
This part of the article deals with the period between the World War II and the Partition resolution and deals with the reasons that the British decided to quit the Mandate. during that time you have various attacks against British related installations and individuals, not against Arabs. I have added a whole section regarding the Arab revolt, where such attacks are mentioned. Plan Dalet has nothing to do with this period. Mashkin ( talk) 09:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
harlan ( talk) 10:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I am not too enthusiastic about this comment, which is quite popular in Wikipedia - it is a wrong analysis by one involved party citing another one. I kept it here since it reflects sentiment. Mashkin ( talk) 09:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Try and limit the length of your responses and in particular make them to the point. Mashkin ( talk) 09:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
You have not pointed out a single attack on Arabs at the said period (45-47) - I looked up your references.
You are also inventing history as you like it. E.g. extending the period where British control was tenuous.
Note that the fact that the Irgun attacked Arabs in mentioned in the Ara Revolt section. The Semiramis Hotel is irrelevant for two reasons: it is part of the war following the partition resolution (which is covered next) and not the period leading to the end of the mandate and it is is not a deliberate attack on international delegates. You are taking a really out of place sentence the ascribed the Bernadotte Assassination to this period and trying to justify it. Mashkin ( talk) 10:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
In many cases Arabs lost their lives, or were wounded, as a result of attacks that were directed against the general population. Such as:
Some attacks were directed specifically at Arabs:
20 MAY 1947
At 20.15 hours on 20th May at Fajjeh near Petah Tiqva a number of armed Jews entered an Arab cafe and searched the occupants. On leaving they placed a mine in the building and fired a number of shots killing one Arab, seriously wounding three other Arabs and slightly wounding four Arabs. The mine was later detonated by Military completely wrecking the cafe. At 2100 hours on 20th May about 25 armed Jews entered Arab Serwarkeh Encampment near Petah Tiqva and opened fire on the inhabitants killing one Arab. A land mine was later found in the village.
FO 371/61776
21 MAY 1947
Jewish thugs beat up Arab Cafe near Fujja 14101660. Cafe demolished. 2 Arabs killed. Jews entered cafe at 2045 hours, ordered Arabs to stand and opened fire. Jews left mine in cafe which was detonated by Royal Engineer, wrecking cafe.
WO 261/568
21 JULY 1947
At 0120 hours a military camp in Haifa was attacked with grenades and machine-gun fire. No damage or casualties to security forces. One Jewish attacker fatally wounded. At 0350 hours a military installation in Haifa was attacked and radio equipment was destroyed by explosives. Four Palestinian S.P.'s injured, none seriously. One Arab civilian seriously injured by a mine. There was also extensive road mining.
FO 371/61776
13 AUGUST 1947
At 16.30 hours on 13th August a car containing two Jews deposited on a road near Petah Tiqva the body of an Arab as yet unidentified, possible Egyptian, who had been shot.
FO 371/678
13 AUGUST 1947
On 13 August, 50 armed Jews set fire to an Arab market in Abu Qabir. They razed the market to the ground. There was no resistance, and no casualties have been reported. Disturbances continued on 14 August in which casualties were inflicted by both sides. A Jewish timberhouse was set on fire, and a bus and several cars were burnt. After 2300 hours, all was quiet, although tension still existed. Total casualties up to morning of 15 August were 8 Jews dead and 25 wounded, 9 Arabs dead and 46 wounded. These figures include the Hawaii Cabaret incident.
WO 275/64
14 AUGUST 1947
At 23.00 hrs. 14th August an Arab watchman at a factory in Ramat Gan was abducted by Jews. His body was found in an orange grove at the rear of the factory at 09.00 hours 15th August. He had been stabbed to death.
FO 371/61783
15 AUGUST 1947
01 -20 hours on 15th August a party of 30-35 Jews in khaki shirts and shorts and armed with automatic weapons approached an Arab owned building in an orange grove near Petah Tikvah. 16 Arabs were sleeping in and around the building. As the Jews approached, they split up, several entering the building, and all firing indiscriminately. The Arabs scattered, but four (2 Egyptians, 1 Palestinian and 1 Hedjazi) were shot dead. At 01.47 hours the building was almost completely demolished by an explosion, probably electrically detonated. 3 males and 4 females are believed to be buried in the debris.
FO 371/61783
15 AUGUST 1947
At 09.30 hrs. 15th August near Jaffa, a party of Jews stabbed and killed two Arab watchmen, one of whom was a boy aged thirteen. At 17.00 hours 15th August in Jaffa, three Jews entered an Arab grocer's shop, damaged interior fittings and poured paraffin over the contents. They were then prevented from setting fire to the shop by local Jewish residents. FO 371/61783 15 AUGUST 1947 At 0935 hours on 15th August at Kilo 54 on the Jaffa- Jerusalem road an Arab in a car was attacked by Jews. He was not injured but his car was burnt out.
FO 371/61783
17 AUGUST 1947
At 1550 hours 17th August an Arab was attacked by Jews in a cafe in Tel Aviv near the Jaffa border. He escaped into the street where he was attacked by other Jews, stabbed and fatally injured. At 1915 hours 17th August an Arab was attacked by a Jew on Tel Aviv sea front and slightly injured.
FO 371/61783
29 SEPTEMBER 1947
On the morning of 29 September, the Irgun Z'vai Leumi carried out a fiendish attack on the Central Police Station at Haifa as a reprisal for the deportation of the "Warfield" and "Farida" passengers. At approximately 0600 hours, a civilian truck came momentarily to a standstill against the perimeter wire of the Police Station, and from a specially constmcted ramp built at right angles to the truck, a composite charge on wheels consisting of approximately 500 lbs of explosive was released. After clearing the wire, the bomb came to rest by the wall of the Police Station; and a few seconds later exploded with tremendous force, severely damaging the Police Station and shops in the vicinity. The casualties caused by the outrage were: 4 British Constables killed, 2 Palestinian Constables killed, 2 TACS killed, 4 Civilians Killed, 13 British Constables seriously wounded, 16 British Constables slightly wounded, 14 Jewish Civilians injured, 11 Arab Civilians injured.
WO 275/64
6 OCTOBER 1947
On 6 October, a party of Jews attacked an Arab encampment near Petah Tiqva, killing two and wounding four others. It is believed that the attack was in the nature of a reprisal for the murder of two Jews in the same area on 4 October.
WO 275/64
13 NOVEMBER 1947
4 British civilians shot at when getting out of taxi in Hadar Hacarmel, Haifa. 4 British civilians killed. 1 Arab injured. British civilians belonged to oil companies in Haifa.
WO 261/571
20 NOVEMBER 1947
At Ra'Anana 137176, a party of 5-8 Jews took 5 Arabs from their home and, after questioning, shot them. 4 Arabs murdered, 1 seriously wounded.
WO 261/571
harlan (
talk)
10:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
"As a result of the Arab Revolt and the Jewish Underground operations after 1939, the situation became unbearable to the British. Palestine became a millstone around their neck. The financial burden of Keeping 100,000 soldiers in a hostile area was enormous, especially as the British economy was almost bankrupt. The pressure of the British public to "bring the boys home" was great. They therefore elected to withdraw their forces and return the mandate to the United Nations, the successor to the League of Nations." see page 78 The Agony of the Promised Land, By Joshua Levy, iUniverse, 2004, ISBN 059532133X
You have a tendency to emphasize the ethnicity of the historian. It is irrelevant and annoying. Please stop. Mashkin ( talk) 10:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Her comments in the 19th century section should not be included for 2 reasons:
Many countries, including the United States, have diplomatic ties with the Palestinian Authority, and have recognized the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza as a "Country" for legal, economic, and political purposes. Dozens of other States have gone one step further and legally recognized that same national entity as the "State of Palestine". There have also been published reports of Israeli's who have accepted Palestinian citizenship and passports. see Israeli pianist Daniel Barenboim takes Palestinian citizenship.
All of that information is notable and applies to the "Current Status" section of this article, since it is NOT a proposal. An edit summary which simply claims that "there is no such place" is fatuous and unsupportable for the following reasons:
In the public international law of the Americas, recognition is strictly a bilateral agreement between two states. The parties to the Montevideo Convention On Rights and Duties of States, and the Charter of the Organization of American States have a conventional agreement that:
Recognition implies that the State granting it accepts the personality of the new State, with all the rights and duties that international law prescribes for the two States.
Last year the Forward Magazine reported that the Palestinian Authority had been working to expand the number of States that recognize Palestine as a Country. The State of Costa Rica went a step further, and opened diplomatic relations with the "State of Palestine". See Costa Rica Opens Official Ties With ‘State of Palestine’. Article 2 of The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations stipulates that the establishment of diplomatic relations between States, and of permanent diplomatic missions, takes place by mutual consent, so this wasn't merely a unilateral declaration on the part of the State of Costa Rica. The Palestinian Authority accepted the duties and obligations of a State when it signed the agreement.
There have been many other published, verifiable reports from WP:RS sources which explain that dozens of States in Latin America, Asia, Africa and Europe have recognized the country of Palestine as the "State of Palestine" too. For example, Palestinian Justice Minister Ali Kashan filed war crimes complaints against Israel with the International Criminal Court last January. Palestinian Foreign Minister Riad al-Malki announced that he had submitted documents to the ICC which proved Palestine was recognized as a "legal state" by 67 other countries, with the corresponding right under international law to accept the jurisdiction of the court, and request an investigation. see ICC prosecutor considers ‘Gaza war crimes’ probe.
The power to legally recognize any entity as a state is vested exclusively in other States. Disgruntled Wikipedia editors, Op-Ed pundits, and private political action committees have no legal standing to contest the matter. UNESCO's volume on International law explains:
there is no definition binding on all members of the community of nations regarding the criteria for statehood, and as long as there is no organ which could in casu reach a binding decision on this matter, the decision as to the statehood of an entity depends upon the other members of the community of nations. The governments of various states are the organs responsible for reaching individual decisions in a given case. The decision-making is called the recognition of states. The term signifies the decision of the government of an already existing State to recognize another entity as a State. The act of recognition is in fact a legal decision which depends on the judgment of the recognizing government. see "IV Recognition of States", beginning on page 47 of International Law
US law and regulations provide a legal definition of the term: 'Country. "Country" means the political entity known as a nation.' See for example, 19 C.F.R. PART 134.1 Definitions. The US State Department has determined that the West Bank and Gaza are a single political entity that satisfies that definition.
On October 24th, 1994, the Department of State advised the Department of the Treasury that, in view of certain developments including the Israeli-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements, the primary purpose of 19 U.S.C. 1304 would be best served if goods produced in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were permitted to be marked ‘‘West Bank’’ or ‘‘Gaza Strip.’’ US Customs acted on that advice from the Department of State, and made a determination regarding the ‘‘country of origin’’ for those goods for marking purposes. Customs notified the public in T.D. 95–25 that, unless excepted from marking, goods produced in the West Bank or Gaza Strip shall be marked as ‘‘West Bank,’’ ‘‘Gaza,’’ or ‘‘Gaza Strip.’’ The T.D. further stated that the country of origin markings of such goods shall not contain the words ‘‘Israel,’’ ‘‘Made in Israel,’’ ‘‘Occupied Territories-Israel,’’ or words of similar meaning.
The President subsequently declared duty-free treatment for products of the West Bank and Gaza Strip by Presidential Proclamation 6955 dated November 13, 1996/ In a letter dated January 13, 1997, the Department of State advised the Department of the Treasury that the Palestinian Authority had asked that the U.S. accept the country of origin marking ‘‘West Bank/Gaza’’ so as to reaffirm the territorial unity of the two areas. The Department of State further advised that it considers the West Bank and Gaza Strip to be one area for political, economic, legal and other purposes. see DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY, Customs Service, T.D. 97–16, Country of Origin Marking of Products From the West Bank and Gaza.
The EU also considers the West Bank and Gaza to be a Country. see EU Neighborhood Policy, Country Report, Palestinian Authority of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The U.K. plans to introduce requirements to properly label West Bank produce for country of origin. A BBC report stated that
the British Government believes that Israeli settlements on occupied territory are illegal. So does every other government in the world, except for Israel. For that reason goods produced on settlements in the West Bank are not supposed to benefit from a free trade agreement between the EU and Israel. They are supposed to be subject to import duty. see Concern over Israel settlement exports
Nothing prevents individual States from recognizing that country, or political entity, as a State. harlan ( talk) 14:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
In the many documents given by Harlan Wilkerson here above, there is this article John Quigley's article on the Issue of Palestinian Statehood and the ICC it is written :
It refers to the GA resolution 43/177, U.N. GAOR, 43d Sess., U.N. Doc. A/RES/43/177 (Dec. 15, 1988), available
here.
This resolution states indeed that :
So, even if WP:IDONTLIKEIT because it is particular to acknowledge the proclamation of a State without precise borders (we just know they are inside the former Palestine), that's it : a Palestinian State exist. (NB: GA didn't acknowledge the choice of Jerusalem as capital).
Ceedjee ( talk) 07:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Howard Sachar's book on page 87 says the Arab population in 1881 was 470,000. On page 167 he says in 1882 the Arab population "barely reached 260,000". Did 210,000 people leave or die in one year? Also on page 167 he says "the increase between 1922 and 1946 was 118 percent, a rate of almost 5 percent annually" but 118 percent in 24 years is only about 3.5 percent annually. Then he makes, perhaps as a result of this mistake, an unsourced claim about immigration. Clearly Sachar has his numbers all in a knot and quoting him on population is silly. Zero talk 14:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC) Zero talk 10:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
A group of notable legal scholars and practitioners, including the former UN Special Rapporteur on the Occupied Palestinian Territories, concluded that Israel's practices in the Occupied territories of Palestine violate international law norms regarding colonialism and the crime of apartheid as defined in international law. Their published report is notable. It called on Israel to correct the situation, and suggested that an advisory opinion of the ICJ be urgently requested on the question. The crime of apartheid is an indictable offense, which is subject to universal jurisdiction in many other states.
This study was commissioned and coordinated by the Middle East Project (MEP) of the Democracy and Governance Program, a research program of the Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa, (HSRC). The HSRC is the state of South Africa's statutory research agency.
The Council conducted a 15-month long review of Israel's practices in the occupied territory of Palestine. The study was conducted by a team of international legal scholars from the law faculties of a number of institutions that are WP:RS sources: the Minerva Centre for Human Rights, Hebrew University (Jerusalem), the University of London's Middle East, School of Law, School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), the South African Institute for Advanced Constitutional, Public, Human Rights and International Law (Johannesburg), the Center for Human Rights, University of Pretoria, and the Department of Foreign Affairs, Government of South Africa (Pretoria). Many legal practitioners from organizations such as Adalah – The Legal Centre for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, and Al-Haq (West Bank affiliate of the International Commission of Jurists) also consulted and contributed. harlan ( talk) 01:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
This treaty does not constitute any fresh departure. It has for long been the established procedure of the public law of Europe that when a State is created, or when large accessions of territory are made to an established State, the joint and formal recognition of the Great Powers should be accompanied by the requirement that such States should, in the form of a binding International convention undertake to comply with certain principles of Government. In this regard I must recall for your consideration the fact that it is to the endeavors and sacrifices of the Powers in whose name I am addressing you that the Polish nation owes the recovery of its independence. It is by their decision that Polish sovereignty is being restored over the territories in question, and that the inhabitants of these territories are being incorporated into the Polish nation.... ...There rests, therefore, upon these Powers an obligation, which they cannot evade, to secure in the most permanent and solemn form guarantees for certain essential rights which will afford to the inhabitants the necessary protection, whatever changes may take place in the internal constitution of the Polish State.' Sovereignty, Stephen D. Krasner, Princeton University Press, 1999, ISBN 069100711X, page 92-93
In most civilized legal systems it is recognized that legal rights may only be exercised conditioned upon compliance with legal duties. The refusal of the State of Israel to comply with the nondiscriminatory requirements of the Palestine partition resolution, its main claim to title, puts in serious jeopardy its claim to legal title to the limited territory allocated to it by the resolution.
You are certainly entitled to your private opinion about the status of statehood, but I don't think you are entitled to spoil the editing environment or delete well-sourced article content on that basis. The talk pages and archives contain dozens of requests that this article be treated in the same manner as the articles on other countries, like the State of Israel. That article does not begin with 100K of anachronistic stone age history. If this article gets too long, then I propose that the ancient history be moved into separate articles. In some cases those articles already exist under much more appropriate names.
During his previous term as Prime Minister, Mr. Netanyahu warned that a unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood would stop the peace process. After years of delay and the recent attacks on Gaza, the Palestinian authorities went ahead and made a formal declaration of statehood to the International Criminal Court. They also provided bilateral declarations that proved dozens of other states had already recognized the State of Palestine. The Prosecutor's Office website says their officials are currently conducting a preliminary analysis of situations in a number of countries - including Palestine. see ICC - Palestine. Those facts are really no longer debatable.
The international community of nations deals with Palestine on the assumption that either a de facto or de jure partition has occurred. It also assumes that Palestine is the legitimate sovereign in at least some of the territory of the pre-partition era country of Palestine. Recognition does not require that there be formal declarations or certainty about the borders of a state. Israel is also recognized by many states, although its borders are not defined, and its own territorial claims are widely discounted. The bottom line is: that there are millions of Palestinians; they have their own national authorities; they own land and property; Israel has stated that they legally reside in territory beyond its sovereign jurisdiction; and nothing in the world prevents other states from recognizing that political, economic, and legal entity as the State of Palestine. You can read all about that in the Rutgers Law review article and in the other publications I've mentioned. If you'd like to keep this fruitless discussion going, then I suggest we move it into dispute resolution or Arbcom. harlan ( talk) 14:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I pointed out earlier that Wikipedia policy says no one owns the articles or the term "Palestine". I've gotten tired of the merry-go-round nature of the discussion with you. If you want to add material from a reliable published source that's fine, but your attempts to issue "no edit orders" leave me underwhelmed. harlan ( talk) 20:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Okedem, Palestine is a Country situated in the geographical and historical area called Palestine. That is a notable and verifiable published fact. It is the homeland of an internationally recognized Nation. This article mentions the other countries (the British Mandate and Israel) and their associated categorizes, like Zionism. There is no valid reason not to mention the country or state of Palestine and its associated categories. Continued attempts to delink the articles and categories without obtaining a consensus from the members of the Palestine Project, or the Outline of Knowledge Project seem pretty dubious. You continue to make edits that are vouched only by your own personal say-so, although you have been repeatedly asked to provide verifiable published sources to support your edits. NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Your personal opinion has been given WP:UNDUE weight.
Recognition is a legal status. The published sources that I cited do not say that the State of Palestine was "partially recognized", so they do not support your WP:Synth revision.
The State of Israel agreed that the West Bank and Gaza would be treated as a single territorial unit as part of the Declaration of Principles (“DOP”) on Interim Self-Government. The US government granted a request from the Palestinian National Authority for recognition of the West Bank and Gaza as a country in view of developments which included the Israeli-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements. The Department of State advised the other agencies of the Executive branch that the West Bank and Gaza Strip were considered one area for political, economic, legal and other purposes. That policy is reflected in Title 19 of the Code of Federal Regulations, but it was not limited solely to the sphere of tax collections.
The US Library of Congress (LOC) lists the Occupied Territories, West Bank, and Gaza as a Nation. The LOC's Multinational Legal Guides lists the jurisdiction as "Palestine" and provides information on the Constitutional history back to the mandate era in "Constitutions of Dependencies & Special Sovereignties", 1975 (with supplements through 2008).
Many parastatial and international organizations followed the DOP guidelines and recognized the territory as a country. The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority has established .ps as the top-level country-code for "Palestinian Territory, Occupied". The ISO Maintenance Agency lists the country name and country elements as "Palestinian Territory, Occupied", Alpha-2 code "PS", Alpha-3 code PSE, numeric code 275. The International Olympic Commission and FIFA formulate their own codes and names that differ from the ISO codes in many cases. The IOC has recognized the National Olympic Committee of "Palestine", Country Code "PSE", since 1996. The FIFA Integration Guidelines, Country and Confederation codes, lists "Palestine" and "PLE". harlan ( talk) 14:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I only used the Federal Register to demonstrate that the area has been designated as a Country. All of those are located in some geographical region - without exception. The ISO, IOC, and etc. are secondary sources that confirm that it is a country. As the Countries cat and the Federal Code of Regulations explains, many countries, like the British mandate, are territories or dependencies. The Forward Magazine article in the same footnote demonstrated the recognition of the "State of Palestine" by the State of Costa Rica. It didn't use the term "partial" or rely on statements by PNA officials.
Reading the public notices that appear in the Federal Register, and citing what the State Department and Treasury Department have to say for themselves in a footnote is not a violation of WP:NOR. Similarly, the definition of the term "Country" that they used comes from the applicable preamble of the Federal Code of Regulations subsection that they were quoting. Their statements and that definition did not originate with me, or any other Wikipedia editor. WP:NOR says that primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia. The Treasury Department says that the territory has been legally designated as a Country of origin, and that the State Department says the West Bank and Gaza Strip are considered one area for political, economic, legal and other purposes. The Library of Congress also cites several secondary sources for the jurisdiction of Palestine and lists the Occupied West Bank and Gaza, including the areas under the control of the PNA as a "Nation". The Federal Code says:
(a) Country. “Country” means the political entity known as a nation. Colonies, possessions, or protectorates outside the boundaries of the mother country are considered separate countries.
(b) Country of origin. “Country of origin” means the country of manufacture, production, or growth of any article of foreign origin entering the United States. & etc...
I'm not aware of any policy which states that country categories can't be linked to geography articles that mention the history and geography of countries in their wikitext. In fact, I think that is the criteria for cat tagging such an article. The country of Palestine is located in this geographical region. Israel, the British Mandate, Palestine, and etc. are (or were) Arab speaking countries. harlan ( talk) 23:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
"Why...does Israel direct straight to the modern nation-state, while Palestine directs to this hotchpotch of borders, refugees, and history? The commonest referent of "Palestine" in modern discourse is far and away the nation and would-be state, as a quick Google check [7] confirms; and "Israel" has at least as much historical ambiguity to it as "Palestine" (see Israel (disambiguation)), so that's not a reason. I suggest applying the same solution as in the case of Israel: adding a disambig page and reserving this page for facts the modern-day State of Palestine and Palestinian Authority. - Mustafaa 09:50, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)" from Talk:Palestine/Archive 6#Why...
Some time back there was a long discussion about this. THE Hebrew name of the COUNTRY -- not the future name of the future state -- is ארץ ישראל . This is true for any form of Hebrew for more than 2000 years. The easiest way to check is to click on the link for "'ivrit/עברית" on the left of the article "Palestine". the complicated way is to read the discussion in the archives.
If anyone has a new (or good) argument against puting the proper Hebrew name at the beginning of the article (instead one of two common transcriptions of the Latin name), I am eager to read it. 85.178.115.110 ( talk) 06:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. Jafeluv ( talk) 21:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Palestine → Palestine (region) — As editors have repeatedly removed information on a state that has received recognition from around 100 other countries and representation in a number of international organizations (see above section), I propose moving this page to Palestine (region) and having Palestine be a disambig page to both this article and State of Palestine and Palestinian territories which are the three most common meaning for the word "Palestine" - nableezy 21:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Frankly the discussion has drifted sideways into flawed rationalizations. 114 countries legally recognize part of the region of Palestine as the State of Palestine. That fact is going to get mentioned in the lede no matter what you rename the article, or the disambiguation page. The Palestinians were redesignated "Palestine" after their 1988 declaration of statehood, but there's no rush to rename articles like Israel, Palestinians, and the United Nations in order to conform to the official UN designations. Another problem with the UN analogy is that the Question of Palestine dealt with the disposition of the Mandate. The law library at the Library of Congress says those were States, not regions. The American Law Encyclopedia Vol 3. entry on Dependent States says the same thing. According to Palestine Remembered, that's also the juridical setting for the Nakba (e.g. Deir Yassin happened April 1948). That means two out of the three examples you employed are states called Palestine, not regions.
Between the 5th and 6th talk archive listing above, there is a merge with: Talk:Palestine (region)/Archive. That archive contains this entry: Renamed: Region of Palestine -> Palestine (region). The notion that the article can't be renamed Palestine (region) by an ordinary user begins to look pretty farfetched. There was an article here about Palestine before that merge, and it wasn't limited to regional topics. The same editor who announced that move, also said he saw no reason to have a Palestine disambiguation page at all. In Talk:Palestine/Archive 5, Using the most current definition of Palestine he said this article ought to be merged with History of Palestine. That page used to have material forked from this article, but nowadays it's just a redirect page for History of the Southern Levant. The Outline of Palestine uses that page as a result of the redirect. No one seems to mind the "huge shift in usage" after 2000 years of consistently calling it Palestine, Southern Syria, Eretz Yisroel, or the dozen or so other terms listed under names and boundaries in this article. A couple of weeks ago, the same editor said that 'The "State of Palestine" has precious little to do with Palestine.' [8] I can only conclude that he or she isn't really very familiar with the most current usage.
After wasting 200K of talk page space claiming that everyone thinks of Palestine as a region, Okedem now claims that appending the term parenthetically (once again) requires some sort of huge shift in usage that hasn't occurred yet. He still says that a "Palestinian entity (authority, autonomy, state)" is an integral part of the region, so I don't think renaming the article will change the current situation. In international law there are very few (if any) universally recognized states. That only leaves non-state actors, internationally non-recognized states, and partially recognized states. Both Palestine and Israel are legally members of the latter category for treaty purposes and that can be verified by most of the Arab League states. harlan ( talk) 16:56, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
settle down boys and girls, lets stay on point |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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This article pretends to be about a geographical region named Palestine. There is however, no information on the geography of this region in the article. Instead, we have a huge section devoted primarily to the political history of Palestine. We also have a huge section on Demographics (which should be its own article Demographics of Palestine as discussed above).
I would like to propose a massive reorganization of this article. AllMost of the information pertaining to Palestine's history should be moved to
History of Palestine (which was rather strangely unilaterally redirected to
History of the Levant in December 2008 without any discussion). The demographics material should be moved to
Demographics of Palestine. This article, if indeed it is going to be confined to a discussion of Palestine as a geographical region, should feature information on the geography of Palestine, including Flora and Fauna, ecoregions, etc, etc.
Are there any objections or suggestions on alternate ways to reorganize this subject? Tiamut talk 11:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
The first paragraph there: "Though the Biblical tradition holds that the Israelites arrived in Canaan from Egypt, archaeological evidence suggests that if there was in fact a United Kingdom of Israel in this early period, it must have emerged from among the local population existent there at the time.[54] Excavations have established that the late 13th, the 12th and the early 11th centuries BCE witnessed the foundation of perhaps hundreds of insignificant, unprotected village settlements, many in the mountains of Palestine.[55] From around the 11th century BCE, there was a reduction in the number of villages, though this was counterbalanced by the rise of certain settlements to the status of fortified townships.[55]".
This entire paragraph doesn't make any sense now. The first sentence used to make sense, but doesn't any longer. I'll explain:
FWIW, Masoretic dating of the exodus places it at 1312 BCE with arrival into Israel at 1272 BCE. -- Avi ( talk) 18:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Online, not really. Most of my Masoretic knowledge comes from the original Hebrew texts of the TaNaKh and their Rabbinic commentaries; sorry. --
Avi (
talk)
18:48, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
As long as claims are properly sourced, there should be no issue. Of course there will be conflict between those who believe the archeology supports the Biblical claims and those that do not believe the archeology supports the Biblical claims; it's just another area of battle in the overall conflict, unfortunately. -- Avi ( talk) 01:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
it isnt even a country, why is there an article, someone show me where palestine is on a map please!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr spork32 ( talk • contribs) 04:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
according to the figures here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Demographics_in_the_late_Ottoman_and_British_Mandate_periods the jewish pop where 94.000 in 1914 and only 84.000 in 1922. I find that a bit hard to believe. According to Justin McCarthy there were about 59,000 Jews in Palestine in 1914, and 657.000 Muslim Arabs, and 81.000 Christian Arabs.-- Ezzex ( talk) 16:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, Jordan is also part of historic Palestine. That's changes the whole story now, doesn't it? Jordan is occupying Palestinian land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.101.34 ( talk) 19:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Wrong. The British imperialist bigots partitioned the middle east (and Jordan). With a common school ruler it seems. 84.215.43.102 ( talk) 14:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
This book is used as a citation in the Origin of Name section. If possible, I would like to know what is the specific text in those two pages of the book that are used as a citation that bases the claim about "Muslim geographers". Thanks John Hyams ( talk) 13:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Is absolutely a reliable source. A full professor at a major university with the book published by reputable publisher is a reliable source. There is also a noticeboard discussion where nearly every uninvolved editor agreed he is a reliable source. Please dont distort policy around your political feelings. nableezy - 07:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
The text in question is not very good. The information is rock solid, but Pappe didn't have much to do with exposing it. I don't think Pappe is needed here. The basics of the story have been known for ages (eg "O Jerusalem", 1972) but Avi Shlaim in his book "Collusion across the Jordan" was the one mostly responsible for tapping the archival sources. I'm out of time today but if nobody else gets to it first I'll replace the text by a more precise account with one or two better sources. So don't waste time over the existing text. Zero talk 10:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Most of the authors were already listed in the Palestine Exodus sidebar. Flapan noted that the majority of Jewish casualties occurred outside the borders of the proposed Jewish state.
The individuals involved and other historians have also addressed the claim that no one abided by the 17 November 1947 agreement. Morris and General Glubb devoted entire books to the subject: The Road to Jerusalem: Glubb Pasha, Palestine and the Jews, by Morris; and A Soldier with the Arabs, by John Baggot Glubb. Bevin told the Prime Minister of Transjordan, Abul Huda, and Glubb not to invade the territory of the Jewish state. The British threatened to withhold the 2 million pound subsidy they provided annually to underwrite the Arab Legion. The Prime Minister told Bevin that the 9000-man force couldn't hope to occupy all of Palestine even if it had wanted to do so. The British had failed to maintain law and order in Western Palestine when they had more than 100,000 troops at their disposal, including the Arab Legion. There was never any intensive fighting between Jordan and Israel in the territory of the proposed Jewish state. harlan ( talk) 17:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
From the 20th Century onward this article is really about the State of Palestine, not the geographical region. It should be labeled as such. A great deal of historical information regarding the region of Palestine was deleted: [10]
The Palestine mandate was a State. It was a signatory to several international treaties in its own right and under its own name. Article 46 of the Treaty of Lausanne provided that the Ottoman Public Debt "shall be distributed . . . between Turkey" and, among others, "the States newly created in territories in Asia which are detached from the Ottoman Empire under the present Treaty." (28 League of Nations Treaty Series 11, 37). That provision was applied to the areas of Western Palestine and Transjordan under the British Mandate. In its Judgment No. 5, The Mavrommatis Palestine Concessions, the Permanent Court of International Justice decided that concessions granted Ottoman authorities were valid under Protocol XII of the Treaty of Lausanne which provided in part: "In the territories detached from Turkey under the Treaty of Peace signed this day, the State which acquires the territory is fully subrogated as regards the rights and obligations of Turkey towards the nationals of the other Contracting Powers . . . who are beneficiaries under concessionary contracts entered into before the 29th October, 1914, with the Ottoman Government or any local Ottoman authority. . . ." ( 28 League of Nations Treaty Series 203, 211.) see Marjorie M. Whiteman, Digest of International Law, vol. 1, US State Department (Washington, DC: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1963) pp 651-652 harlan ( talk) 19:00, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree that the 20th century section is one sided, because it seems to blame the indigenous Palestinians for the conflict between Palestinian Arabs and the Zionists and Jewish Settlers. The Mandate of Palestine is the last time the region of Palestine was entire (actually bigger than at any other time in it's history)so the comparison of Palestine to its political reality is valid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GCaisle ( talk • contribs) 02:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I want to comment on the fact no single source in the naming section refers to a specific territory or the whole region nor it would probably be possible to mine it out of their context. this should be clarified. some regions names pillistine throughout the ages refereed to different areas depending on the political context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.167.90 ( talk) 17:44, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
What is going on here? I added the meaning of the word פלשת in Hebrew to the article, and then "Zero000" violently deleted my edit without discussion and without providing convincing reasons for not including the current Hebrew translation of the word. Our short discussion was as follows:
So without even opening a discussion on this talk page, I am now blocked from even seeing the article when I am logged in! What kind of behavior is this??? John Hyams without logging in
84.229.58.22 (
talk)
23:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:John_Hyams"
But I have no time to deal with this now, I have bills to pay. 84.229.58.22 ( talk) 23:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I found this article called: The Big Map of the Empty Land (originally publish in makor rishon Israeli newspaper) and was wondering where to put it into the article. I adding text to describe this finding (under the permission of the author) but am not sure where to add it into the article. please review and help fit this in Talgalili ( talk) 09:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
During the period 1871 to 1878 a British research mission conducted a survey of the Land of Israel and prepared a map [1]. The scale of the map is 1 to approximately 63,000. Each centimeter on this map whose size is that of a large room, represents 630 meters in real dimensions. On the basis of this map one can determine which settlements existed in those years and their size. According to these details it is possible to estimate the size of the population there.
How the Map was Made: The Foundation of British Exploration of Palestine” created in 1865 by the elite of the British upper class of the time, Lords, academics, clergymen, and the very wealthy. The fund set up its goal to conduct researches in the fields of archeology, history, geography, and ethnography in what was then called “Palestine”. The expedition numbered several dozens of people, among them expert cartographers, and heading it were well-known people: Sir Charles Warren, Claude R. Conder, Horatio H. Kitchener. The project began in 1871 and completed in 1878. The production of the printed map lasted several years, and when it appeared it became the most detailed precise map of the Land of Israel. Due to its size, the map was printed in 26 separate sections, in four colors, by lithography.
What the map shows: The uniqueness of the map is that the British surveyors marked with great accuracy the borders of every settlement and noted in special colors the populated sections of the settlement. It is possible through this map to ascertain the size of each settlement in the Land during that period, from the Litani River in the north and as far south as Beer Sheba.
The map represents by cartography what Mark Twain described in a literary form: a desolate arid wilderness, almost empty. Using a ruler it is a simple matter to determine the size of each settlement. When examining the villages we see that their areas are tiny. The largest of them are 150 by 100 meters. They comprise barely two rows of houses. The color legend indicates that Acre, for example, was then only partially inhabited. Entire areas were empty of people, exactly as we had learned in school, and likewise the Jezreel Valley and the Jordan Valley and all the areas that the Jewish pioneers later brought to life.
Haifa is marked on the map by a rectangle of three by seven millimeters. Each millimeter represents 63 meters in actual terms. This means that the Haifa area was 190 by 440 meters in size. The German Colony is outside the Haifa perimeter, and each house is exactly drawn
Nazareth was then a little larger than Haifa. Its shape is in the form of a gourd whose longer end is 600 meters and its smaller end some 300 meters. Even Tiberias is larger than Haifa – 300 by 600 meters. “Greater” Jaffa was only a little town – 240 by 540 meters. Shekh Munis, where the Tel Aviv University now stands, was a tiny village 90 by 180 meters. So, also, Usfiyeh, Yehud, and many other villages.
Jerusalem, within its walls, was, in fact, large – 1000 by 1000 meters. There was nothing outside the walls, and we know (not from the map) that within its walls there was always a Jewish majority.