Deleted this because I don't believe it is correct:
I moved the above comment to this page, and I've rewritten this article. I'm sure it still needs a lot of work, because I certainly am no expert on paganism. I would like to suggest gently to enthusiasts of various things about which it's possible to be enthused, please bear in mind that we are writing an encyclopedia for the entire world, with all the many people in it, and that means you must take a wide and long view of the subject you're writing about.
Neopaganists, for example, would do well to remember that paganism has a long history that is historically completely separate from the activities in which they engage at present. The most recent version of this article very inadequately mentioned the differences between ancient Celtic and other polytheistic and animist religion(s), on the one hand, and their modern revivalists, on the other. The rewritten article still needs a lot more information about that, actually. But this was, I think, because the person(s) who wrote some earlier draft of the article either didn't know or more likely didn't care enough about the differences to think it necessary to point them out. This results in confusion to anyone who doesn't actually know about the article, and this confusion is not due to inadequate time and space but failure to use the time and the space that was used.
Not to pick on these authors in particular, though, there have been plenty of other examples where articles suffer from a lack of intellectual worldliness, an intellectual provinciality, as though one person's, one group's, one discipline's, etc., take on the subject were the only that exists. I won't name names, but I've seen this again and again. (OK, to name one group, scientists generally and the computer scientists particularly often seem to think that their own special meanings for otherwise common terms or terms used in other fields are the only ones worth mentioning!) I'm sure I've been guilty of this myself from time to time, although I do try to keep myself alert to it. Of course, there are plenty of people who are very aware of this, but there are also quite a few people who don't seem to be.
Please don't hide behind the fact that people can correct articles and that this is a work in progress. That's very true and someone will eventually correct bad work. But with a little research and thought, nearly everyone working here can at least acknowledge that other takes on the subject exist. It's not that hard to do that much, and it's just efficient, and it makes the overall "stature" of the project higher. It also won't do to say, "Well, this is useful information--I can add it and others can add other relevant views." This is perfectly true, but it is also perfectly true that it is just much better to at least acknowledge that the other views exist--to put placeholders down. This doesn't require much more, if any more, effort than simply writing the text you want to write. -- LMS
I agree wholeheartedly, Larry - the qualification of "said to be" isn't nearly enough for the pre-historic matriarchal religion of Europe. I just removed "ancient Ireland" from the list of country-folk untouched by religion NOT because they weren't pagan (though by the late 4th century they were being converted - don't get me started on St. patrick) but because they never really had cities (and the concomitant population of urban snobs) nor were they Latin speakers, so 'paganus' is anachronistic for them. Gaul, on the other hand, is an excellent example. Folks in Bordeaux and Toulouse and Arles and Marseilles and Lyon certainly sneered at pagani. --MichaelTinkler
I'm not too sure whether to agree with your edit or not -- the big question is, how to define pagan? My immediate reaction would be to say any polytheistic religion -- but then we have Hinduism, Shintoism, Indigeneous religions as pagan, which might technically be correct but isn't how the word is normally used. I think the most accurate description of what the word is generally used to describe is "those polytheistic religions in Europe, the Mediterranean and the Near East displaced by Judaism, Christianity or Islam" -- but that definition doesn't seem that natural... -- Simon J Kissane
Well, that section is about the etymology of 'paganus' in its Christian context rather than the phenomenon 'paganism'. There's room for both in an encyclopedia entry, though I have not objection to someone moving it around. On the other hand, I would object to someone clouding the meaning of "rustic" by including Hinduism or Ireland at that point. When early Christians talked about other 'high' religions they tended to use the word idolatria (latria = worship), "idolatry". Paganism didn't come to have a common Christian usage until the 4th or even 5th centuries. We could move this section, or delete it, but it's the etymology of the word! --MichaelTinkler
As a Neopagan myself, I tried to flesh out some of the basics of Neopaganism, but decided it really needed its own page. This page now sticks to the older usage, but links to Neopaganism. Hopefully this will keep things clear and allow the Neopagan content to be further expanded later.
-- [[User:Dmerrill]
The article's looking spiffy, but I don't much like this "paganism I" and "paganism II" stuff. If it's just a different sense, and the information is included in neopaganism, why are we repeating the information here? Anyway, if we must repeat it here, it should be under a different heading, after ---- I guess, not under a heading "paganism II." Please look to see how others have dealt with this sort of problem. It would help to look at naming conventions. -- LMS
Thanks for the 'spiffy' comment, very encouraging to a new contributor. I agree the PI and PII strategy is clumsy but submitted it for two reasons.
I mean no disrespect by this for the writer above who identifies as NeoPagan, who is absolutely entitled to do so, but having worked as a Pagan national leader, spokesperson, teacher etc over 20 years and probably having encountered a few thousand enormously diverse Pagans as part of that career, this is the first time ever Ive come across someone using that title as a self identification. So here is a puzzled and courteously interested Pagan priestess, yet again acknowledging how risky it is to generalise about Pagans!
Shan Jayran hope Ive set this out OK.
What is this "Outsider discourse", curiously capitalised? I kinda get what this is supposed to be saying, but the second sentence seems to be too vague and scattershot to convey much intelligible meaning, at least to me. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply say something like:
-- IHCOYC 19:25 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Pagan and Neopagan, are terms which confuse sometimes deliberately, as in the final definition, rests legitimacy of various interests.
Wiccans are aware that they are a majority of NeoPagans, and no doubt that there are some, who realize that by banding together certain groups (of which they approve) under the "Pagan" banner, that they stand to benefit, as a group, as a result. Minority groups and individuals who disagree with what crystallise with "accepted" Pagan beliefs end up on the outside, while among those on the inside, Wiccans have the ascendancy. For example; Most people who vociferously argue for the word "Paganism" as opposed to the neutral "Neopaganism" equally vociferously deny that Satanists can be Pagans. (Neopaganism is "neutral" because it doesnt have the same quality of rallying-around-the-flag quality as the term "Paganism").
Whats going on is essentially the redefinition of the word, for political purposes. Instead of "Pagan" meaning licentious, or rural, or evil; each of these definitions are being stringently, stridently attacked. But as mentioned, "Neopaganism" is too bland to act as a nucleus for an emergent religion. Hence the comment "most Pagans heartily dislike the label NeoPagan and keep battling external commentators to adopt the emic (internal) name they use themselves, ie 'Pagans'."
This isnt about a dictionary definition, its about ultimately whether some mythical umbrella group the "Pagans" get to develop legitimacy for themselves, and the right to exclude others, such as Hedonists, Satanists, Chaotes, and others, from being in the "in group".
Ironically, I doubt most understand this at a conscious level. I believe its no coincidence that this etymological struggle emerges at a point in time when Pagans have a stab at becoming an accepted religion. To do this; its important to Wiccans, druids, etc, to build safety in numbers, and to associate into a larger group. At the same time they need to excluse those who threaten the group, i.e. Satanists. Wiccans are almost finished with cohering their own group with ethics, standards, rules, etc, and now a push is on to consolidate further. THATS why there is this huge confusion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.147.129.58 ( talk • contribs) . ________________________
Coming in as a classicist, I have some issues here with the melding of ancient and modern definitions of the word "pagan". It's incorrect to say that it refers only to polytheistic religions, because while traditional Roman and Greek state cult were polytheistic, religious traditions like Neoplatonism were decidedly monotheistic, while being pagan as well. I'd also like to discuss the word "Hellene", actually used by the ancient "pagans" themselves, as "pagan" is increasigly being rejected as an acceptable term for scholars.
Basically, I think this page needs to be divided up into sections that refer to the modern and ancient definitions.
-- LaurenKaplow 05:55, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
About your most recent changes, I realize this is nitpicking, but I wouldn't describe civic cults as deification of the political process. I think it'd be more accurately described as using the cult of a specific deity as a form of civic pride and identity. -- LaurenKaplow 00:33, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, that's all true... for the eastern religions. Not at all for Greek and Roman religion, as they rejected the notion of a king or divine leader entirely (well, until the cult of the emperor). -- LaurenKaplow 20:18, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It might just be me, but I think it's a little offensive to have _Heathen_ redirect to Paganism, for it suggests that all Pagans are evil when that is hardly the case. I can't say that the redirection was done in a neutural respect.
Trolling tonight? Trying to start a edit war between the Pagans and the Heathens? Maybe you just don't know better, but by not signing your comment I suspect you know exactly what you did, and THIS little Pagan is not taking your bait. *plonk*! -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 06:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Some Pagans class themselves as Heathens (followers of Asatru, for instance). By some definitions, all Pagans are Heathens, which isn't correct, but it's still a popular definition. Either way, it would be better to have a separate article that can explain the different uses of the term.-- Jcvamp 22:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I find the modern term for heathen in relation to paganism insulting, but heathen actually means hearth-dweller, which isn't insulting. I haven't read the article properly yet, so I don't know if this is in there, just wanted to make that point. Monkeymox 13:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Pagan, Heathen, why worry, as Pagans we know exactly what we are and should be above petty sniping. Spyke59
The link "Cultic" is redirected to "Ritual". The two are not the same. 76.170.117.217 19:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC) 2007-06-16T12:52Z-7
I want to know the opinion of members on my last edit on paganism. I think it is important to mention all that in the introduction, because it is a peculiar case.
This is because TODAY pagan means idol-worshipper, nature-worshipper etc., it is no longer restricted to European cults only, and is hardly derogatory . But its past derogatory reference to only a group of Europeans is still discussed often today. IAF
Section (i) here needs pruning badly - the latter half is highly POV and also appallingly written.-- OliverHarris —Preceding undated comment added 23:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC).
The entire article seems to be purely about religions. However the etymology refers to uncivilized people - or rather, people viewed as uncivilized by those who consider themselves civilized. The word Pagan to me also has strong connotations of hedonism, debauchery and what not. "They live like pagans" wouldnt seem to imply "they worship many gods and they attend the forum on Sunday" - as the entire article implies. Rather, one gets an impression of people who arent afraid of a beer or two, and perhaps who get a little orgiastic at times. I strongly sense a revision of the term, particularly as modern americans (prudish by historical standards) who define themselves as pagans, are slowly cleaning the image up to their standards (see remark on "heathens" below). I would like to see this entire section retitled NEOPAGANISM, as thats basically what its defining. A battle is in progress to change the world by changing the use of words, in this case. Paganism is being uncivilized - Paganus - and all that that entails. Its not a convenient umbrella term for wiccans and asatruers to unite under. Thats neopaganism. Paganism is not caring what the city dwellers think. Often, it imples nudity, revelling, orgies, drink, hedonism, and so on. Its a freeing up from the legislation required to run a functioning city. In my opinion, Paganism has more to do with the level of legislation and freedom from legislation, and norms, standards, than how many gods are worshipped. The main religions agree with this, or used to. Christians called Islamics pagans, and vice versa. Bearing in mind that the monotheistic religions comprise the majority of the worlds population, one should bear their useage into account. Their definition implies one outside the (religious) law. Not a polytheist. But the article is so heavily written from the neopagan viewpoint, I wouldnt know where to begin to revise the main article. I hope others will absorb this viewpoint though, and incorporate it at least partially into the text.
Congratulations, this is the most ill informed comment (clearly from a closet right wing fundie who wants to determine what we call ourselves)I have yet seen on WIkipedia. To me personally, the very word Christian brings up images of evil and sick fanatics, murder and the abuse of children. How about we chuck that up on the Christian page?? If you don't like the fact that the term pagan is used to denote polytheists, I doubt anyone could give a sh*t.
---Hmm, I can't agree. Paganism is religious by usage. While the term "pagan" is often used historically in a manner similar to the way the modern term "redneck" is used, "pagan" also has a religious connotation; many people refer to themselves as "pagan" in a religious manner. This is an example of a certain group of people taking a word that was origianlly an insult and turning it into something else. For example, the word "nigger," (and I apologize to any who may take offense to that word, but I must point out that the word was used solely as an example) was originally used to put down blacks. However, modern American blacks have taken the word and transformed it into a word that means nothing more that (to blacks) "another black person." Similarly, the word "pagan" has gone from meaning "country-person," or "redneck" to "another non-Christian" person. ("Christian," in this case, may be replaced with any given religious designation.) NME 09:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Paganism is hardly uncivilised. I don't want to get into a religious debate, but may I point out that Paganism existed before the christian church and was a set of religious practices that idolised and respected nature, and promoted respect for both sexes. Only recently has sex equality been re-established, and the modern day world is hardly respectful of nature. Paganism today promotes free thought, and practitioners choose their own path of belief, something most major religions do not allow. I would say, therefore, that Paganism is very civilised in the grand scheme of things Monkeymox 13:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
In one well-established sense, paganism is the belief in any non-monotheistic religion, which would mean that the Pythagoreans of ancient Greece would not be considered pagan in that sense, since they were monotheist, but not in the Abrahamic tradition. In an extreme sense, and like the pejorative sense below, any belief, ritual or pastime not sanctioned by a religion accepted as orthodox by those doing the describing, such as Burning Man, Halloween, or even Christmas, can be described as pagan by the person or people who object to them.
They were pagan but were they really monotheistic? They only believed that from the monad, the first unit came everything else. They don't regard it as a deity, or even a conscious being, it seems to me. -- Darthanakin 06:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The article looks to me a lot like a dictionary entry and Im thinking a shift to Paganism (disambiguation) might be appropriate. (This would leave the current name free as one for an article about current pagan practice.) Laurel Bush 13:18, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC).
Why in the world are you comparing Pagans to Nazis? - a guy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.3.164.192 ( talk) 02:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps Paganism needs a move to Proto paganism as the name of an artlicle which should include references to now emergent self-conscious (self-styled) paganism. Laurel Bush 16:36, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC).
I write as a Wikipedia reader. Thank you. Laurel Bush 11:32, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC). And Paganism still looks like a dictionary entry or semantic discussion. (So however does Neopaganism). Laurel Bush 14:15, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC).
A very Eurocentric article, to say the least. Where do Hindus, Shinto adherents, et al, fit? Or will they be utterly ignored, as usual? Dogface 18:13, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
European tradition Pagans don't deign to label other peoples. I know for a fact that Hindus and Zoroastrains would take grave offence at being labelled pagan.
"Paganism" as such is usually understood academically as the ancient classical religions of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome, the Celts, the Germans, the Slavs and the other Baltic People that Christianity supplanted between 100-1500 A.D. in Europe. Modern pop revivals of any of those really should go under Neo-paganism, or be clearly delineated as modern revivals of a classical pagan religion(s). Anything else can be ascribed to polytheism and left at that. Fire Star 01:39, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
The recently added section of anthropology terms, while interesting and helpful, seems to be written from the assumption that "pagans" are always history's losers, and that influences run in one direction from other cultures that conquer the pagans. What is the anthropological term for a conquering culture like the Roman Empire that syncretizes the faiths of cultures it conquers? Smerdis of Tlön 18:35, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I removed the "Fluffy Bunny" references. I hardly think "fluffy bunny" even deserves an article. "Fluffy Bunny" references make the article feel like a joke. I don't have any good reasons other than saying it's bad taste, so if anyone reverts my removal, please just say something about why you want it there. I don't claim to be a pagan myself, but I do know that people who are take their religion just as seriously as anyone else does. "Fluffy bunny" just doesn't give this religion the reverence it deserves. -- DanielCD 04:45, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
OK, like I said I really didn't have any good reason for removal other than a feeling, perhaps style. I thought someone was just being silly, but after reading a bit, it does seem to be an actual concept. -- DanielCD 20:52, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
i think it should have a link to what a fluffy bunny is in pagan terms as they do exist and theres even covens of them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.214.152 ( talk) 15:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, apologies for the "load of bollocks" comment - I was watching a very bad BBC program called The Heaven and Earth Show, where on a weekly basis, a Christian, a Muslim, and a pundit from a "minority faith" are deposited on a sofa to discuss tome-derived morality within the realm of current affairs. This week, I was shouting at the TV at a pagan (and the other two). Fact is, there isn't a "criticism of paganism" section, whereas all the establishment religions have heavily documented articles of both the misdemeanors carried out in the name of the faith, and also arguments against the fundamental principals on it. It's only fair that an article on paganism has an opposing viewpoint, so I'm going to start researching such a thing. As a basis, I've got the following lines of research:
The "load of bollocks" comment - or, in a more wikipedia-friendly sense, the fact that much of the beliefs of paganism have no plurality with scientific discovery, and are somewhat eccentric
Misdemeanors - not heavily documented (I can't name any at this point), but I once spotted a book in a bookshop froms a line of childrens history books in the UK called "'orrible history", complete with "'orrible romans", "'orrible english", and "'orrible pagans". Evidently, some pagans weren't very nice. Obviously, the "yes, but they were different times" counter-arguments will arise, and I will make sure to document them, but bizarre and inhumane acts in the name of paganism are surely relevant in the article.
Lack of definition - every year, a large number of people from religions which fall under the umbrella of paganism - wiccans, druids, etc - arrive at stonehenge and have an argument over how to celebrate dawn on mid-summer night.
Pettyness and politicisation - some people, fed up with the established religions (and quite vocally so) turn to paganism as a spiritual protest. I know this, because I worked with two, who were ready to bite on the slightest suggestion that their religion wasn't listed in a glowing light, and one who seriously chastised me when I pointed out that I had put "jedi" on my census (which, in itself, was a protest at religion anyway).
Wastefulness of faith in disprovable concepts. Applies to all faiths, so should be brief. Faith, by definition, is the self-inflicted belief in something which is hard to verify.
Spellcasting - some branches of paganism involve the casting of spells, which have never scientifically been observed to work. This includes projection, circles of protection, binding, sexual rituals, etc.
Islamic (and other Abrahamic faiths) opposition - when Mohammed invaded Medina, he was mostly attacking pagans, whom he deemed to be kafir. This should probably be a link to a more in-depth article of the events, rather than a brief article.
I don't want to pull this etymology and usage of paganus all to pieces, but here's the entry on pagus from Harry Thurston Peck, Harper's Dictionary of Classical Antiquity for anyone who wants to work some history into this section: [1] -- Wetman 09:45, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Although this article states that "Paganism" comes from "Paganus", meaning "rural", the word probably derives form "Pagani" meaning "civilian". This usage indicated how the Civilian religion of Paganism was believed to contrast with the non-civilian religion of Christianity. This information can be found in Fox, Robin "Pagans and Christians". ACEO 10:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
RE: Common word usage (Protestants regarding catholics, etc.) There's quite a bit missing here about "graven images" and the derogatory term "papists" which was used interchangeably with "pagans" for some time in Protestant thinking.
RE: Common word usage (Protestants.... oppressing adherents to European earth-based spiritual traditions) There's quite a big gap in information about the suppression of earth-based spirituality in the celtic/druid/gaullic groups. For example, the burning/hanging/drowning of witches, etc. Since this oppression is the root of my own objection to use of the term 'pagan', perhaps someone could enlighten me as to why its been left out of this wiki/post? Thanks, beachgum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.100.218 ( talk) 01:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed this here: "Christianity also became a major religion in the Roman army. Here pagani has meanings of non-combatant, pacifist, with attendant derision. From the widespread popularity of Christianity among slaves, the most numerous class in the Roman Empire, by contrast pagani acquired connotations of "uppity", "religious dissident" and so on to "heretic"." The Army was the last bastion of Mithras and Isis. There were no connotations of "pacifist" in paganii. "Uppity" is not a useful category in Late Antiquity. "Heretic" and "pagan" are confused only in the modern American prayer-meeting. -- Wetman 22:49, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Should Heathen have its own page? It seems to me that the term is related but it might need a separate page.-- Whiteash 15:56, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
I believe that it should. I have taken a mild offense to the fact that the word redirects to paganism or anything Pagan in general. It is this writer's opinion that "heathen" was a word developed by organized/mainstream religious types (ie., Christians) as a derogatory term for anybody believing differently than they do. Now, this may just be personal opinion but the term is rarely used in any Pagan references and may even be an obsolete word in modern times. I would have to say on this subject as well that the terms "Pagan" and "Paganism" are, if only slightly, two different topics altogether. While "Pagan" can be used to describe an individual following a non-mainstream religion, "Paganism" would be used to describe the non-mainstream religions themselves. The difference between a Druid and Druidism, for example, one is a person and the other is what that individual practices. As for outside faiths, Islam, Taoism and so on do not necessarily need a name to 'umbrella' them. They already have names that work just fine, to try to categorize religions that appear to be too different to accurately group would likely be a waste of time. Ultimately (this is a thought that just occurred to me) While trying to group those religions it may be deemed necessary to develop many different 'umbrellas' to group those religions in and in the process of that, you may find yourself grouping some religions together under many different 'umbrellas'. Pagans on the other hand are such a broad category that trying to figure out what one is and another is not would take too much time and usually confuse the common speaker. To call one or oneself Pagan is more like a generalized term used to 'umbrella' the many different religions that fall under its category, thusly making discussion a bit easier to handle. For instance, it would be easier to call myself pagan rather than take the time to define Wicca to somebody who was raised Christian/Jewish/other. At any rate, having the word 'heathen' to describe a Pagan just seems wrong to me and a bit dated. When looking at 'The New Catholic Dictionary', their use of the word 'heathen' sounds so derogatory, like they think Pagans and the like are nothing more than filthy animals. Comments and/or ideas on this subject welcome for discussion in depth at | Zeifer's Place. Zeifertstc 04:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
can someone explain why the article I am nearly done writing for Oh My Gods! had it's link removed from the page under the "see also" section? as a neopagan COMIC STRIP dealign with paganism, wicca and neo-paganism I would say it's 100% approperate under it's own SUBCATEGORY of comedy, where I had it
edit: I have gone ahead and added it back in, as the page is now up for the article (anonymous post from User:Shivian)
The link might be more appropriate in Wicca or Neopaganism than here. — Ashley Y 21:54, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
Basically, Paganism is a nature based religion. And some people just don't get that. I have had people tell me that it is "Devil Worship." Which is a false statement. Being Pagan myself, I know that Paganism is all about finding the beauty in all life. There are some evil souls out there, but they still have a soul. Now, from what I can gather, people who call us Pagans a "Devil Worship" cult, I believe they just don't know about the religion. Paganism is finding yourself, the beauty in life, a soul in everything, and respecting everything. And especially Mother Nature, because without her, we wouldn't be here today.
No they are not. Luckily you are not the officiado of the worlds religious terms.
sure the ancient names such as Baal, lucifer, satan were deities in their own right prior to christianity, but they were no more 'devils' than venus was a devil (even though she presided over death). to worship any of them is not to worship a devil, except in christian eyes of course. DavidP
There are different definitions. Some definitions define all pre-Christian religions, including Judaism, as Pagan. Some have it that all pre-Christian religions, not including Judaism, were Pagan. Some have it that Polytheism itself is Paganism. Others, like the person above, would have it that anything non-Abrahamic, including Atheism somehow, is Paganism.-8/6/06
Correction, Satan was not a diety in it's own right prior to Christianity. Rather, it is a verb meaning "to be hostile" or "to accuse" (to be adversarial). Simply put, it is both a verb and a title in Hebrew. ~Vito J.
Devil Worship and Atheism are NOT in any way related to the Pagan religions. The Pagan religions are a seperate sect of religious beliefs, and devil worship falls closer to christianity than it does paganism, seeing as how many pagans I know (including myself), do not believe in any single entity known as the devil. I say that devil worship falls closer to christian beliefs than pagan because the christian church expresses the ideas of satan, and devil worshippers take these ideas and worship the devil. therefore, many people (and I mean absolutely NO OFFENSE by this) could consider devil worship a branch of christianity, as it deals with the same deities and figures. Atheism is of course a complete lack of religion, and therefore not in any religious catagory of its own. -Brandon Richey
I think it may be used to further enhance knowledge of Neo-Paganism and/or Heathen if Heathen is ever to have a page of its own written. On Pagan or Paganism, no, I do not believe this book is relevant. Zeifertstc 04:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
this section is misleading, and rather ill-informed. The reason that paganism as opposed to pagan is only in use since the 17th century does not mean that paganism wasn't seen a unity, but simply that the -ism suffix only came in fashion in modern times. dab (ᛏ) 20:38, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't have much academic experience in religion, but I'm checking up on Dan Brown's suggestion that in the sweeping of Christianity over Paganism, women ultimately lost their cultural standing. Obviously I'm not taking to heart everything in the Da Vinci Code but I think it's an interesting area of history if it has truth in it. Can anyone point me in the direction of more information on women in paganism? Thanks.
I don't think paganism has a formal definition, except that given by neo pagans. While Dan Brown is certainly wrong, I believe there are some valid sources are theories of the role of religion in matriarchy vs. patriarchy preceding the introduction of Christianity. Rds865 ( talk) 07:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted in this that Heathen is a term that is used exclusivly to the Asatru religion as a name for its followers, and that Heathenry, and Paganism are indeed not the same thing. Heathens are not Pagans, and Pagans are not Heathens. In fact most Heathens consider it offencive to be confused with moderen pagans and Neopagans" as their religion is set in stone and followed as it was in Iceland and northern Europe before Roman domination. Differing greatly Neo-Paganism is a hoshposh of occult observances differing greatly from person to person, and place to place.(Anonymous)
If neopaganism has an article, and since it and pagan have so little in common, is it standard for there to be an extensive section on neopaganism in this article?
(cross-posted on Talk:Neopaganism) - I am placing the {{limitedgeographicscope}} template on both this article and Neopaganism, and here is why. I've been re-tagging some articles from Category:Religion stubs as paganism stubs and also placing the WikiProject Neopaganism template on appropriate article talk pages, and I've had some difficulty determining whether to do this with some articles, especially the numerous articles related to syncretic African religions. I went to the Wikipedia articles on paganism and neopaganism for guidance as to the scope of these terms, and found very little. In particular, I have noticed that all of the religions on the "list of pagan religions" in Paganism and all of the traditions listed in Neopaganism are explicitly European. Neopaganism comments that "Polytheistic or animistic traditions that survived into modern times relatively untouched by Christianity and Islam, like Shinto or Hinduism are not considered pagan nor neopagan," but no explanation is given for why non-European, pre-Christian, polytheistic religions that haven't survived (or their revivals) are not included on these lists. I think that this is an important issue that merits serious discussion and deliberation, and judging by the comments above, I'm not the only one. So... Are paganism and neopaganism strictly European phenomena? Are these terms used to refer to non-European religions? And should religions like Voodoo and Candomblé, both of which have been called "pagan" according to their articles, be included here? - AdelaMa e ( talk - contribs) 06:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
A discussion of usage and capitalization/hyphenation conventions for the terms N/neo(-)P/pagan and P/pagan is ongoing on the WikiProject talk page. Contributors to this article will likely be interested in participating. - AdelaMa e ( talk - contribs) 21:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed wwpn.org from the link list. There are no sources for their "FAQ" so I fell it falls along the lines of "personal opinion."
Also, there are goods for sale on the site, and posting the link here may be a sly way of advertisement. -- Toadsboon 09:05, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
During my studies of Paganism, there is one thing that I have learned beyond a doubt; there is virtually no agreement on the definition of 'Paganism' from one group to another.
I've been reading the discussions on this page and the Neopaganism page, and it seems as though people are trying to have the definition written the way they view it. I'm, by no means an expert, and I'm sure there are people on here who know a lot more about the subject than me, but I thought I would try to help clear the article up.
The first paragraph of this article would definately conflict with a lot of people's views. It is also inaccurate to say that the term is used primarily by Christians, although the definitions at the beginning of this article probably are. I think the only fact that all groups (except those who seem to think it's a religion itself) would agree on is that Paganism is a category of religions.
The etymology section would be a good place explain about the definitions of 'non-Christian' and 'non-Abrahamic', or could at least lead onto a section discussing them. After that, you could have a section talking Wicca and the Pagan revival that came along with it, and how they spawned definitions such as 'earth-based religions'. The same could be done for all common definitions, whilst explaining the etymology for each and why the current definition is the one found most often in dictionaries.
This is all my long-winded way of saying, I think this article should have subsections to address each of the common definitions of 'Paganism'.-- Jcvamp 01:00, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Paganism is a historical category: no educated person is applying it today. The idea has a history that is partly revealed in its etymology, and better revealed in its historical usage. The career of the idea "paganism" is being discussed in this article: Neo-paganism has its distinct article; our own opinions of paganism and what it may mean in today's schoolyards are irrelevant.
There are three ways to diddle about incompetently with this article, all of them broad avenues already well-trod:
A good definition of heathen would help clear fog from this discussion, it appears. Any "splitting" of articles is best done, not by cannibalizing a coherent existing article, but by creating sub-articles that expand upon specific aspects, with a Main article... heading. Anyone who doesn't understand the concept of nested articles, shouldn't be encouraged to chop about at random. -- Wetman 04:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I don't see why you imply that I don't accept the fact that there are many definitions. That's what I'm advocating here...
I like the idea of sub-headings (in fact, if you look up the page you'll see I've already suggested it myself), but, if you read Wetman's post carefully, you'll see that he's criticising certain definitions. To me, and I may be wrong, the main gist of the post was to say that the other definitions come from uneducated people, and therefore shouldn't be used.
I dislike a lot of the definitions too, but words change and we should discuss what the word 'Paganism' has come to mean. The article Man is about adult males (though in the disambiguation it mentions that it can refer to humans in general), but the word originally meant human. Why is Paganism any different?
If we are going to have an article with sub-headings for different definitions, we have to decide which definitions to use. My idea was to use the most common definitions.-- Jcvamp 23:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Should Shinto be considered a pagan religion? It is, after all, polytheistic with a heavy animistic and nature-oriented tinge. — Rickyrab | Talk 02:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
"Pagan" is the usual translation of the Islamic term mushrik, which refers to 'one who worships something other than God'. Sorry, I dont understand this statement. Is it translating the English word Pagan into Islamic(?) language? Or, actually, don't understand anyway.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anupamsr ( talk • contribs) .
To me, the essense of paganism is just a continuence of oral traditions which are important no matter who you are and to any religion, family etc. And which we miss so much in our shocking society. 'The world is too much with us'. [William Wordsworth]
I have no real disagreement with the idea that Wicca was recently founded, although based on the best scholarship available I would place its "founding" closer to the 1920s or 1930s. My objection is to it being singled out as a "recently founded" religion, while faiths like Neo-Druidism are "reconstructions" or even "revivals". The basic fact is that all these religions are attempting to revive something from the past, and all involve a degree of reconstruction. All are based on an imperfect historical knowledge. Neo-Druidism as it is popularly practiced today has little more historical "validity" than Wicca - the Druidic revival started in the 18th century, so it may predate Wicca in that sense, but it got an overhaul in the 20th Century. Ross Nichols and Gerald Gardner were collaborating together on the development of both their religions, from all accounts.
Asatru might be more historically accurate as a "revival", since it is based largely on a set of literary works of similar antiquity (but has its reconstructed elements, just as all the rest do); Wicca is perhaps more of a "reconstruction" since it has more diverse literary sources, ranging from Greek magical papyri to supposed Italian witch beliefs recorded by Charles Leland, to the theories of Margaret Murray. The fact that the validity of some of these texts is disputed in no way makes this any less of a valid attempt at "reconstruction" — and it's certainly not in a different boat to Neo-Druidism, the founding documents of which are widely thought to be pure invention.
Perhaps the thought is that Wicca can only be a "newly founded" religion since it's attempting to revive a European witchcraft, something which "never existed". This opinion would presumably be based on Ronald Hutton's writings, which take a rather extreme position, atypical of most of his academic peers in the field. Wider academic consensus recognises the existence of folk magic mixed with pagan or non-Christian beliefs throughout Europe right up to the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries (such as the Benandanti and groups identified as similar by Carlo Ginsburg). While these witchcraft-like beliefs were uncommon, they are well-known to modern historians were certainly not non-existent. In any case, if the intention is to say that Wicca is reconstructing something that never previously existed, that would be better expressed clearly and unambiguously in the article.
"Newly founded" sounds like Wicca has no interest in drawing from the past, which is quite misleading... Fuzzypeg ☻ 07:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I note we have a long series of "anti-paganism" quotations, all of which are from a loosely Christian perspective, and all of which, though prettily written, seem to be based on misconceptions of what a pagan world-view might be. C S Lewis' views are particularly horrid, seemingly founded in a puritanical self-loathing of any impulse which is not expressly aimed at God; Bigland's assumption that only the Abrahamic religions contain moral teachings is patently false; and while G K Chesterton comes the closest to expressing a valid idea with his description of taking joy in small things, he makes an unfounded assumption that pagans would fearfully avoid confronting the vast and the sublime. I don't see why the gods and the fates should be despotic or dead; these are the gods of the vast spaces that surround mankind, that we stare up to in the heavens. Pantheism, for instance, finds divinity in the largest as well as the smallest.
These quotations, it seems to me, are not so much attempting to understand paganism in a realistic manner, as to explore the authors' fears of straying from the path of Christ, since God is only "up there" and not "down here". The pagans these authors are talking about (with the possible exception of Chesterton) have bones through their noses and stew missionaries in pots. Fuzzypeg ☻ 02:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I hope my sub-dividing of the quotes section will be a good solution to your unease with them. 11:35, 12 September 2006 (EST)
I think the initial introduction of quotations was unfortunate since it was entirely given over to Christian apologists writing at a time when active hostility towards the old religions was part of Christian life. Some of Chesterton's remarks of negroes and Jews would be considered highly racist today and Lewis opinions on witch's would - effectively condoning capital punishment - would not go down well with those who practice Wicca today. There can be considerable resentment amongst pagans towards Christianity and its treatment of religions outside itself when it gained the ascendency - the "turn or burn" mentality. IMO the contributor of those quotations, whilst being well-meaning, has disturbed the balance of the article and it would be preferable that the whole of the quotations section, for and against paganism, be removed. Sept 12 2006
The Chesterton quote that's the lone entry now is definitely a keeper. 22 September 2006
I disagree because it is only another one of G.K Chesterton's sound bites that might have an appeal to Christians, or even some pagans who live in a Merry Olde England kind of world with the Christian veneer removed. I think they are unfair, they certainly do not represent my views as a pagan, and his broad brush strokes about despotic Gods could, without any difficulty, be applied to Yahweh and his ways - especially in the O.T. His generalised comments about pagans, the afterlife, their binding to earth etc are also clearly wrong and misrepresent the many possible pagan spiritual paths. I do not warm to the idea that the criteria for quotations should rest on their literary merits only - indeed the whole idea of a quotations sections lends itself to a war of soundbites. With respect I would ask that this be reconsidered and the quotation section be dropped completely as the article loses objectivity through its presence. 24 September 2006 1.55pm
82.40.208.36 13:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
It's interesting that the word heathen and Pagan are both discussed in a single article which is clearly almost exclusively on Pagan religion. While they may have been historically synonymous, they are not longer so in the modern world. More to the point, heathen has come to simply mean either not Christian or simply not monotheistic, including simply not religious:
So, it is misleading to imply that "heathen" is actually synonymous with, or even related to, Paganism, at least in modern usage, despite the fact that a few Pagans also call themselves Heathen.
The Tongan king was just interred - the BBC said he was buried with Pagan and Christian ceremonies. Can someone shed some light on what that means?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.2.209.90 ( talk • contribs)
Please see neopaganism's talk page for discussion.
There's a bit of a problem with how the religions are organized in the Paganism#Pagan religions and Paganism#Neo-pagan religions lists. Are we just going on self-identification, or whether it's an ancient or modern tradition? If a modern religion comes from an unbroken, polytheistic tradition, I assume we put it in "Pagan". If it's obviously a modern religion, I assume we put it in "Neopagan".
But right now, for instance, Asatru is mentioned in both sections, and Discordianism, which is obviously modern, is under "Pagan". I am going to "be bold" and sort this out a bit, but I'm sure others on this article will have an opinion on this. However, one of the problems is that these distinctions are not always clear-cut. Some traditions, such as Asatru and Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism, are polytheistic elaborations built on surviving cultural customs. They might be best described as partial reconstructions. I'm not sure how to address this grey area. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 21:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
On the surface, I would tend to restore the word "idolatry", as this was specifically referenced and, if I understand the faiths involved, essentially accurate. If anyone knows a less emotionally charged word for the same thing, please use it. -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 14:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the caption on this picture should not read "During the expansion of the Sokoto Caliphate in West Africa, Islamic Fulbe (Fula) labelled their non-Muslim neighbours, such as this Kapsiki, it is still unknown what the fuck this retard is staring at... diviner, Kirdi, or "pagans"."
Specifically "it is still unknown what the fuck this retard is staring at..." should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.9.100.255 ( talk) 07:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC).
An anonymous user ( 85.146.24.65) removed this map. I have restored it, without bias, and ask that it's removal or retention be discussed here. -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 17:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The picture of a man looking Islamic-Muslim-Mideastern-like seems inappropriate and misleading to the entire article - which focuses on the term "pagan" as latin and refers often to "Christianity". A translation of the term into other languages or cultures can be included here , but this image does not seem to represent any pagan majority or have genuine significance.
This insert appears to be inserting an image that is more misleading than informative or representative of what is herein described as Paganism, in all it's varieties. A more relevant image would be helpful. The current image should be replaced with an informative one, not misrepresenting the beliefs of pagan peoples.
If a picture is worth 100000 words, this image is not telling a truth.
The included sentence - "Historically, the term "pagan" has usually had pejorative connotations among westerners, comparable to heathen, infidel, and mushrik and kafir (كافر) in Islam." - is not a translation of the word "pagan". Tho "comparable", this additional sentence seems to be misplaced.
And as many of us do not think of "islam" as a category compared to "westeners" nor is "Islam" a language. As a culture or religion Islam is also found in the places from where "westeners' live. This is all a poor mixing of comparisons and seems to be an insertion intended for more than elucidation of the pagan story. Activistrep
With the history of the word being so distant, one would have to wonder what all possible meanings of this world there could be.. likewise, this word postdates Judaic religions,It has been debated that it's meaning meant the same thing at the time it was made.. IE Pagan = anything that is not in following with the Roman religion "due to roman religion being the key influence". I believe the biggest argument is that this word is a complete antonym to it's original meaning. Before the Romans allowed the criminal christians into the walls of Rome they were just "Pagans", and the Pagans could be arrested for being such.. IE the Myth of Jesus Christ.. A pagan that is widely known for his crimes against the Roman Empire and his Execution.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.60.32.94 ( talk) 21:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC).
24.13.244.169 added the following to the Notes and Reference section. I felt it had SOME info but needed to be discussed here first.
*1 The word pagan or rather "pohan" is similar to "pohon" as in Czech language or "połon" in Belarus, which describe people taken to settle from defeated country. Also pozo/pogo/poho/pagan-iać has the same meaning "sped up" as a command during column movement. The term pogan was used in and is related to pre-Christ era, as most Christian knows Jesus was not the first baptized Christian.
-- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 17:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
This section seems to be empty, save for a picture. Just thought I'd point it out. 24.91.39.160 16:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The recent addition of "Idol-worship" to the Paganism article is a bit problematic. Because the term is unfortunately negatively weighted by the Judeo-Christian Bible interpretation in Western society, I don't really think it's appropriate or accurately descriptive. I believe this is a translation problem. I would recommend using the more accurate murti worship or perhaps "icon-worship" or "deity-worship" which I believe would be more representative of the meaning being sought after here. I certainly think using the word murti somewhere in the article would be a good idea. Thoughts? -- Pigman talk • contribs 18:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Can the person who put the Latin quote into the text ("Apud hunc [sc. Christum] tam miles est paganus fidelis quam paganus est miles infidelis") please translate it? It seems awfully pretentious to quote like that, assuming everybody will understand it. 201.81.190.154 19:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I have cut from the article the following passage: " Sacrifice does not play a part in modern paganism today, as Paganism is a very peaceful religion, focusing on a principle to respect all beings." Apart from NPOV issues, some modern pagans do make offerings to the Gods. The idea of sacrifice doesn't automatically suggest harm to any other creature. GoldenMeadows 16:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that the fact that it calls Paganism a religion alone, should be reason enough to remove it. Also, based on the definition of Paganism provided by the article, most religions are Pagan, and it's impossible to speak for all of them in terms of beliefs.-- Jcvamp 18:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I reverted the article from changes made by 70.182.28.222. Im not sure what action to take beyond reverting the article, but do any more experienced Wikipedians want to do anything about it? Like blocking the address? Thanks Monkeymox 19:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Charred Feathers restored a See Also link to Pagan activism under Neopaganism, and asked in his edit summary why it was removed? I gotta ask, why was it restored? Pagan activism is just a redirect to Reclaiming (neopaganism). A number of the See also links I just gotta scratch my head over. Virtuous paganism??? Idolatry??? Both Christian concepts, or at least totally Christian-centric articles. I gotta laugh to keep from crying. -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. ( talk/ contribs) 06:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
think of it this way, at least there is discussion.... Charred Feathers 06:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Continuing on the above, this article needs cleanup. I'll try to do some today, but my time on WP right now is sort of limited. While I realize it's not always clear-cut whether the best designation for a religion/tradition is "Pagan" or "Neopagan", it does seem that we need to be more consistent throughout this article, and have a clearer policy for the links. For instance, when an obviously Neopagan group calls themselves simply "Pagan", I still think they need to be categorized as Neopagan; therefore, they'd be more appropriate to link to from the Neopaganism article than this one. On most of the Neopagan articles, and as discussed at Wikiproject Neopaganism, we've generally been following the guideline of capitalizing Pagan when it refers to religious Paganism, and only using lowercase when discussiong the "irreligious" definition. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 22:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm moving the following passage over here until someone can clean it up.
The American Religious Identity Survey 2001, [1] calculated that paganism formed the fifth largest [2] religion in the United States however if the broad definition of paganism is used, then paganism is the second largest group behind Christianity.
The largest percentage quantifiable growth is Wicca which has shown a near 17 fold increase in practising members over an 11 year period. [3] Paganism is Canada's fastest-growing religion, according to Statistics Canada. [4].
-- Toscaesque 05:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
this is a garbled version of Neopaganism in the United States. Also at Neopaganism#North_America. The fact of the matter is that Paganism is the sixth largest non-Christian religion in the US, after Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Unitarian Universalism. The "second largest" claim is based on bogus numbers of "5 million witches". To beat even Hinduism, there would need to be more than a million "Pagans" in the US. Even the neopagan sponsored http://www.cog.org/ poll of 1999 doesn't claim that many, finding 768,400 neopagans in the US and Canada taken together. Of course, you are free to define "paganism" as "non-Abrahamic", which would mean that there are only four religions, viz. Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Paganism. Then, of course, Paganism would be the largest non-Christian religion in the US. But such a definition is nonsensical, and no census would do such a thing. A reasonable number of US neopagans is around 300,000. If you want to count everyone sympathetic, you may argue for 500,000. To beat even Unitarian Universalism, you'd need to claim 900,000. -- dab (𒁳) 06:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that the section on etymology needs editing. It should refer to Robin Fox "Pagans and Christians" which says the word derives from "Pagani" meaning civilian, rather than perpetuate the popular view that this word derived from "Paganus" meaning rural. ACEOREVIVED 19:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
well, Kathryn, an "Etymology" section at "Paganism" is supposed to discuss the etymology of paganus, and it should be addressing readers who want to know that etymology. Sections can be skipped, and anyone not interested in the etymology can just not read it. In this sense, while Wikipedia should certainly be written "for the readers", it should be written for readers who want to know, not for the hypothetical "average" reader, who mostly appears to be slightly simple and not really interested. The section's content should be treated like that of any other section, subject to branching out if over-long: we do have such branched out specialized etymology articles, e.g. at god (word) or witch (etymology). dab (𒁳) 09:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
If the Indian religions are included, then 50 percent of the world's religions would be considered pagan.
I would like to suggest that we add to our list of external links the up and coming website www.neopagan.com. As a comparison to www.PaganNetwork.com, Neopagan.com offers much more information, more beautiful visuals, more purposeful content, a 3D game "Pagania Island", a Neopagan community and a different approach to providing information via philosophical (Plotinus, Plato, etc) references. The www.neopagan.com site seems to be unique by asking to embrace all who may call themselves Pagan or Neopagan, Atheist, or of the 'revealed religions'. Neopagan.com is a Neopagan network embracing the worldwide Neopagan or Pagan community and containing educational information as well as magickal tools. The main goal of this site, besides being an informative home for the entire Neopagan community, is to give everyone the possibility to experience the magickal essence of Gaia and the Universe using online tools and concepts that are especially tuned to achieve material, spiritual guidance and success.
RebeccaAnkh —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebecca2008 ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Can you help me understand where to find the "links normally to be avoided" information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebecca2008 ( talk • contribs) 16:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The article doesn't explain why the word for a "hillbilly" was used to describe non-Christians. This was because Christianity spread in cities and the rural europeans were the last to convert. Rds865 ( talk) 07:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
What's paynimry, and does it deserve such prominence? Totnesmartin ( talk) 09:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
OED has:
The lemma paynim has:
-- dab (𒁳) 14:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Recently, the main pictures were changed, from two which depicted real pagans actually practicing, to three woodcuts and etchings of pagans which are all historically dubious in their portayel. I think we should revert the images. What do others think? ( Midnightblueowl ( talk) 17:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC))
"Pagan" means " pre-Christian", not "polytheistic" in general. Much less "nature-based". I am not sure why "nature-based" is always brought into this, I have no idea what is supposed to be "nature based" about historical polytheism (or what this even means outside the New Age context). Greco-Roman paganism was perfectly urban. If you look at the article, you'll note that it doesn't support the "fact" you suggest. If paganism just meant "polytheism", we would need to merge this with polytheism immediately. -- dab (𒁳) 22:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
so characterisation of "pagan" as "pre-Christian" isn't scholarly, but characterisation as "nature-based" is? nature-based? Would you say that our society is "nature-based" because it generates its power from natural resources such as fossil oil and nuclear fission? I am sorry, but you seem to be just twisting words here. The term "nature-based" is used for New Age and Neopagan "Deep Ecology", not for historical paganism. Since you seem to claim otherwise (used in both scholarly and common English usage) feel free to prove me wrong by presenting your references. Feel free, for example, to substantiate your claim that Anglo-Saxon paganism has ever been described as nature-based (outside of Neopagan or New Age sources, of course). I see you have seen fit to remove the historic images again and replace them with random snapshots of folk religion and neopagan ritual. I suggest these do not belong here, or at least not in the lead. "Paganism" is clearly a Western-centric designation. It originally referred to all pre-Christian religions, and later, by extension, to all non-Christian traditions that resembled European pre-Christian ones in terms of being polytheistic or animistic. It is impossible to define "pagan" as independent from Western or Christian culture, since "pagan" would just end up being synonymous with "religious". -- dab (𒁳) 16:07, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Oh and the scholarly historical work A History of Pagan Europe by Jones and Pennick and published by Barnes and Noble in 1995 does indeed use the term "nature venerating religion", stating that one of the defining aspects of pagan religions is that they "view nature as a theophany, a manifestation of divinity, not as a 'fallen' creation of the latter". ( Midnightblueowl ( talk) 18:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC))
the idea that all myths ultimately had their origin in natural phenomena (seasons etc.) was a 19th century fad. Yes, polytheism also has room for personifications of natural phenomena, but that's by no means its defining feature. The proposition that paganism simply translates to nature worship is (a) either fluffy neopagan Romanticism, or (b) monotheist chauvinism with the implication that paganism is a "primitive" and now superseded stage in the history of religion. Motives (a) and (b) come from opposite sides of the ideological spectrum even though they support the same idea, and both are equally biased, and equally misguided. -- dab (𒁳) 22:09, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Is calling pagan a popular way of European discrimination against non-Abrahmic religions? The term as used in many books seems to denote somekind of insult based on religion similar to "cxxx" . Contribtutions to the article on these lines are appreciated. Be Bold and edit WP. Brothers in Arms ( talk) 21:52, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
why "racial"? The article is perfectly clear that this was a derogatory term in origin. Race has nothing to do with it. -- dab (𒁳) 22:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
I am talking "race" on the basis of religion one belongs to. In this case all non Abrahmic religions who traditionally believe in many Gods, Nauture forms and other things. Brothers in Arms ( talk) 11:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
"race" on the basis of religion one belongs to? I think you would do well to read our race article. You are trying to say " religious discrimination". "Pagan" is indeed a term of historical religious discrimination if you like. Today, it is also a self-designation. -- dab (𒁳) 11:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
cut from article:
that's all very interesting, and maybe worth discussing at the pomerium article, but it remains unclear what this is supposed to have to do with anything here. -- dab (𒁳) 18:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Deleted this because I don't believe it is correct:
I moved the above comment to this page, and I've rewritten this article. I'm sure it still needs a lot of work, because I certainly am no expert on paganism. I would like to suggest gently to enthusiasts of various things about which it's possible to be enthused, please bear in mind that we are writing an encyclopedia for the entire world, with all the many people in it, and that means you must take a wide and long view of the subject you're writing about.
Neopaganists, for example, would do well to remember that paganism has a long history that is historically completely separate from the activities in which they engage at present. The most recent version of this article very inadequately mentioned the differences between ancient Celtic and other polytheistic and animist religion(s), on the one hand, and their modern revivalists, on the other. The rewritten article still needs a lot more information about that, actually. But this was, I think, because the person(s) who wrote some earlier draft of the article either didn't know or more likely didn't care enough about the differences to think it necessary to point them out. This results in confusion to anyone who doesn't actually know about the article, and this confusion is not due to inadequate time and space but failure to use the time and the space that was used.
Not to pick on these authors in particular, though, there have been plenty of other examples where articles suffer from a lack of intellectual worldliness, an intellectual provinciality, as though one person's, one group's, one discipline's, etc., take on the subject were the only that exists. I won't name names, but I've seen this again and again. (OK, to name one group, scientists generally and the computer scientists particularly often seem to think that their own special meanings for otherwise common terms or terms used in other fields are the only ones worth mentioning!) I'm sure I've been guilty of this myself from time to time, although I do try to keep myself alert to it. Of course, there are plenty of people who are very aware of this, but there are also quite a few people who don't seem to be.
Please don't hide behind the fact that people can correct articles and that this is a work in progress. That's very true and someone will eventually correct bad work. But with a little research and thought, nearly everyone working here can at least acknowledge that other takes on the subject exist. It's not that hard to do that much, and it's just efficient, and it makes the overall "stature" of the project higher. It also won't do to say, "Well, this is useful information--I can add it and others can add other relevant views." This is perfectly true, but it is also perfectly true that it is just much better to at least acknowledge that the other views exist--to put placeholders down. This doesn't require much more, if any more, effort than simply writing the text you want to write. -- LMS
I agree wholeheartedly, Larry - the qualification of "said to be" isn't nearly enough for the pre-historic matriarchal religion of Europe. I just removed "ancient Ireland" from the list of country-folk untouched by religion NOT because they weren't pagan (though by the late 4th century they were being converted - don't get me started on St. patrick) but because they never really had cities (and the concomitant population of urban snobs) nor were they Latin speakers, so 'paganus' is anachronistic for them. Gaul, on the other hand, is an excellent example. Folks in Bordeaux and Toulouse and Arles and Marseilles and Lyon certainly sneered at pagani. --MichaelTinkler
I'm not too sure whether to agree with your edit or not -- the big question is, how to define pagan? My immediate reaction would be to say any polytheistic religion -- but then we have Hinduism, Shintoism, Indigeneous religions as pagan, which might technically be correct but isn't how the word is normally used. I think the most accurate description of what the word is generally used to describe is "those polytheistic religions in Europe, the Mediterranean and the Near East displaced by Judaism, Christianity or Islam" -- but that definition doesn't seem that natural... -- Simon J Kissane
Well, that section is about the etymology of 'paganus' in its Christian context rather than the phenomenon 'paganism'. There's room for both in an encyclopedia entry, though I have not objection to someone moving it around. On the other hand, I would object to someone clouding the meaning of "rustic" by including Hinduism or Ireland at that point. When early Christians talked about other 'high' religions they tended to use the word idolatria (latria = worship), "idolatry". Paganism didn't come to have a common Christian usage until the 4th or even 5th centuries. We could move this section, or delete it, but it's the etymology of the word! --MichaelTinkler
As a Neopagan myself, I tried to flesh out some of the basics of Neopaganism, but decided it really needed its own page. This page now sticks to the older usage, but links to Neopaganism. Hopefully this will keep things clear and allow the Neopagan content to be further expanded later.
-- [[User:Dmerrill]
The article's looking spiffy, but I don't much like this "paganism I" and "paganism II" stuff. If it's just a different sense, and the information is included in neopaganism, why are we repeating the information here? Anyway, if we must repeat it here, it should be under a different heading, after ---- I guess, not under a heading "paganism II." Please look to see how others have dealt with this sort of problem. It would help to look at naming conventions. -- LMS
Thanks for the 'spiffy' comment, very encouraging to a new contributor. I agree the PI and PII strategy is clumsy but submitted it for two reasons.
I mean no disrespect by this for the writer above who identifies as NeoPagan, who is absolutely entitled to do so, but having worked as a Pagan national leader, spokesperson, teacher etc over 20 years and probably having encountered a few thousand enormously diverse Pagans as part of that career, this is the first time ever Ive come across someone using that title as a self identification. So here is a puzzled and courteously interested Pagan priestess, yet again acknowledging how risky it is to generalise about Pagans!
Shan Jayran hope Ive set this out OK.
What is this "Outsider discourse", curiously capitalised? I kinda get what this is supposed to be saying, but the second sentence seems to be too vague and scattershot to convey much intelligible meaning, at least to me. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply say something like:
-- IHCOYC 19:25 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Pagan and Neopagan, are terms which confuse sometimes deliberately, as in the final definition, rests legitimacy of various interests.
Wiccans are aware that they are a majority of NeoPagans, and no doubt that there are some, who realize that by banding together certain groups (of which they approve) under the "Pagan" banner, that they stand to benefit, as a group, as a result. Minority groups and individuals who disagree with what crystallise with "accepted" Pagan beliefs end up on the outside, while among those on the inside, Wiccans have the ascendancy. For example; Most people who vociferously argue for the word "Paganism" as opposed to the neutral "Neopaganism" equally vociferously deny that Satanists can be Pagans. (Neopaganism is "neutral" because it doesnt have the same quality of rallying-around-the-flag quality as the term "Paganism").
Whats going on is essentially the redefinition of the word, for political purposes. Instead of "Pagan" meaning licentious, or rural, or evil; each of these definitions are being stringently, stridently attacked. But as mentioned, "Neopaganism" is too bland to act as a nucleus for an emergent religion. Hence the comment "most Pagans heartily dislike the label NeoPagan and keep battling external commentators to adopt the emic (internal) name they use themselves, ie 'Pagans'."
This isnt about a dictionary definition, its about ultimately whether some mythical umbrella group the "Pagans" get to develop legitimacy for themselves, and the right to exclude others, such as Hedonists, Satanists, Chaotes, and others, from being in the "in group".
Ironically, I doubt most understand this at a conscious level. I believe its no coincidence that this etymological struggle emerges at a point in time when Pagans have a stab at becoming an accepted religion. To do this; its important to Wiccans, druids, etc, to build safety in numbers, and to associate into a larger group. At the same time they need to excluse those who threaten the group, i.e. Satanists. Wiccans are almost finished with cohering their own group with ethics, standards, rules, etc, and now a push is on to consolidate further. THATS why there is this huge confusion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.147.129.58 ( talk • contribs) . ________________________
Coming in as a classicist, I have some issues here with the melding of ancient and modern definitions of the word "pagan". It's incorrect to say that it refers only to polytheistic religions, because while traditional Roman and Greek state cult were polytheistic, religious traditions like Neoplatonism were decidedly monotheistic, while being pagan as well. I'd also like to discuss the word "Hellene", actually used by the ancient "pagans" themselves, as "pagan" is increasigly being rejected as an acceptable term for scholars.
Basically, I think this page needs to be divided up into sections that refer to the modern and ancient definitions.
-- LaurenKaplow 05:55, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
About your most recent changes, I realize this is nitpicking, but I wouldn't describe civic cults as deification of the political process. I think it'd be more accurately described as using the cult of a specific deity as a form of civic pride and identity. -- LaurenKaplow 00:33, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, that's all true... for the eastern religions. Not at all for Greek and Roman religion, as they rejected the notion of a king or divine leader entirely (well, until the cult of the emperor). -- LaurenKaplow 20:18, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It might just be me, but I think it's a little offensive to have _Heathen_ redirect to Paganism, for it suggests that all Pagans are evil when that is hardly the case. I can't say that the redirection was done in a neutural respect.
Trolling tonight? Trying to start a edit war between the Pagans and the Heathens? Maybe you just don't know better, but by not signing your comment I suspect you know exactly what you did, and THIS little Pagan is not taking your bait. *plonk*! -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 06:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Some Pagans class themselves as Heathens (followers of Asatru, for instance). By some definitions, all Pagans are Heathens, which isn't correct, but it's still a popular definition. Either way, it would be better to have a separate article that can explain the different uses of the term.-- Jcvamp 22:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I find the modern term for heathen in relation to paganism insulting, but heathen actually means hearth-dweller, which isn't insulting. I haven't read the article properly yet, so I don't know if this is in there, just wanted to make that point. Monkeymox 13:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Pagan, Heathen, why worry, as Pagans we know exactly what we are and should be above petty sniping. Spyke59
The link "Cultic" is redirected to "Ritual". The two are not the same. 76.170.117.217 19:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC) 2007-06-16T12:52Z-7
I want to know the opinion of members on my last edit on paganism. I think it is important to mention all that in the introduction, because it is a peculiar case.
This is because TODAY pagan means idol-worshipper, nature-worshipper etc., it is no longer restricted to European cults only, and is hardly derogatory . But its past derogatory reference to only a group of Europeans is still discussed often today. IAF
Section (i) here needs pruning badly - the latter half is highly POV and also appallingly written.-- OliverHarris —Preceding undated comment added 23:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC).
The entire article seems to be purely about religions. However the etymology refers to uncivilized people - or rather, people viewed as uncivilized by those who consider themselves civilized. The word Pagan to me also has strong connotations of hedonism, debauchery and what not. "They live like pagans" wouldnt seem to imply "they worship many gods and they attend the forum on Sunday" - as the entire article implies. Rather, one gets an impression of people who arent afraid of a beer or two, and perhaps who get a little orgiastic at times. I strongly sense a revision of the term, particularly as modern americans (prudish by historical standards) who define themselves as pagans, are slowly cleaning the image up to their standards (see remark on "heathens" below). I would like to see this entire section retitled NEOPAGANISM, as thats basically what its defining. A battle is in progress to change the world by changing the use of words, in this case. Paganism is being uncivilized - Paganus - and all that that entails. Its not a convenient umbrella term for wiccans and asatruers to unite under. Thats neopaganism. Paganism is not caring what the city dwellers think. Often, it imples nudity, revelling, orgies, drink, hedonism, and so on. Its a freeing up from the legislation required to run a functioning city. In my opinion, Paganism has more to do with the level of legislation and freedom from legislation, and norms, standards, than how many gods are worshipped. The main religions agree with this, or used to. Christians called Islamics pagans, and vice versa. Bearing in mind that the monotheistic religions comprise the majority of the worlds population, one should bear their useage into account. Their definition implies one outside the (religious) law. Not a polytheist. But the article is so heavily written from the neopagan viewpoint, I wouldnt know where to begin to revise the main article. I hope others will absorb this viewpoint though, and incorporate it at least partially into the text.
Congratulations, this is the most ill informed comment (clearly from a closet right wing fundie who wants to determine what we call ourselves)I have yet seen on WIkipedia. To me personally, the very word Christian brings up images of evil and sick fanatics, murder and the abuse of children. How about we chuck that up on the Christian page?? If you don't like the fact that the term pagan is used to denote polytheists, I doubt anyone could give a sh*t.
---Hmm, I can't agree. Paganism is religious by usage. While the term "pagan" is often used historically in a manner similar to the way the modern term "redneck" is used, "pagan" also has a religious connotation; many people refer to themselves as "pagan" in a religious manner. This is an example of a certain group of people taking a word that was origianlly an insult and turning it into something else. For example, the word "nigger," (and I apologize to any who may take offense to that word, but I must point out that the word was used solely as an example) was originally used to put down blacks. However, modern American blacks have taken the word and transformed it into a word that means nothing more that (to blacks) "another black person." Similarly, the word "pagan" has gone from meaning "country-person," or "redneck" to "another non-Christian" person. ("Christian," in this case, may be replaced with any given religious designation.) NME 09:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Paganism is hardly uncivilised. I don't want to get into a religious debate, but may I point out that Paganism existed before the christian church and was a set of religious practices that idolised and respected nature, and promoted respect for both sexes. Only recently has sex equality been re-established, and the modern day world is hardly respectful of nature. Paganism today promotes free thought, and practitioners choose their own path of belief, something most major religions do not allow. I would say, therefore, that Paganism is very civilised in the grand scheme of things Monkeymox 13:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
In one well-established sense, paganism is the belief in any non-monotheistic religion, which would mean that the Pythagoreans of ancient Greece would not be considered pagan in that sense, since they were monotheist, but not in the Abrahamic tradition. In an extreme sense, and like the pejorative sense below, any belief, ritual or pastime not sanctioned by a religion accepted as orthodox by those doing the describing, such as Burning Man, Halloween, or even Christmas, can be described as pagan by the person or people who object to them.
They were pagan but were they really monotheistic? They only believed that from the monad, the first unit came everything else. They don't regard it as a deity, or even a conscious being, it seems to me. -- Darthanakin 06:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The article looks to me a lot like a dictionary entry and Im thinking a shift to Paganism (disambiguation) might be appropriate. (This would leave the current name free as one for an article about current pagan practice.) Laurel Bush 13:18, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC).
Why in the world are you comparing Pagans to Nazis? - a guy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.3.164.192 ( talk) 02:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps Paganism needs a move to Proto paganism as the name of an artlicle which should include references to now emergent self-conscious (self-styled) paganism. Laurel Bush 16:36, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC).
I write as a Wikipedia reader. Thank you. Laurel Bush 11:32, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC). And Paganism still looks like a dictionary entry or semantic discussion. (So however does Neopaganism). Laurel Bush 14:15, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC).
A very Eurocentric article, to say the least. Where do Hindus, Shinto adherents, et al, fit? Or will they be utterly ignored, as usual? Dogface 18:13, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
European tradition Pagans don't deign to label other peoples. I know for a fact that Hindus and Zoroastrains would take grave offence at being labelled pagan.
"Paganism" as such is usually understood academically as the ancient classical religions of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome, the Celts, the Germans, the Slavs and the other Baltic People that Christianity supplanted between 100-1500 A.D. in Europe. Modern pop revivals of any of those really should go under Neo-paganism, or be clearly delineated as modern revivals of a classical pagan religion(s). Anything else can be ascribed to polytheism and left at that. Fire Star 01:39, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
The recently added section of anthropology terms, while interesting and helpful, seems to be written from the assumption that "pagans" are always history's losers, and that influences run in one direction from other cultures that conquer the pagans. What is the anthropological term for a conquering culture like the Roman Empire that syncretizes the faiths of cultures it conquers? Smerdis of Tlön 18:35, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I removed the "Fluffy Bunny" references. I hardly think "fluffy bunny" even deserves an article. "Fluffy Bunny" references make the article feel like a joke. I don't have any good reasons other than saying it's bad taste, so if anyone reverts my removal, please just say something about why you want it there. I don't claim to be a pagan myself, but I do know that people who are take their religion just as seriously as anyone else does. "Fluffy bunny" just doesn't give this religion the reverence it deserves. -- DanielCD 04:45, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
OK, like I said I really didn't have any good reason for removal other than a feeling, perhaps style. I thought someone was just being silly, but after reading a bit, it does seem to be an actual concept. -- DanielCD 20:52, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
i think it should have a link to what a fluffy bunny is in pagan terms as they do exist and theres even covens of them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.214.152 ( talk) 15:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, apologies for the "load of bollocks" comment - I was watching a very bad BBC program called The Heaven and Earth Show, where on a weekly basis, a Christian, a Muslim, and a pundit from a "minority faith" are deposited on a sofa to discuss tome-derived morality within the realm of current affairs. This week, I was shouting at the TV at a pagan (and the other two). Fact is, there isn't a "criticism of paganism" section, whereas all the establishment religions have heavily documented articles of both the misdemeanors carried out in the name of the faith, and also arguments against the fundamental principals on it. It's only fair that an article on paganism has an opposing viewpoint, so I'm going to start researching such a thing. As a basis, I've got the following lines of research:
The "load of bollocks" comment - or, in a more wikipedia-friendly sense, the fact that much of the beliefs of paganism have no plurality with scientific discovery, and are somewhat eccentric
Misdemeanors - not heavily documented (I can't name any at this point), but I once spotted a book in a bookshop froms a line of childrens history books in the UK called "'orrible history", complete with "'orrible romans", "'orrible english", and "'orrible pagans". Evidently, some pagans weren't very nice. Obviously, the "yes, but they were different times" counter-arguments will arise, and I will make sure to document them, but bizarre and inhumane acts in the name of paganism are surely relevant in the article.
Lack of definition - every year, a large number of people from religions which fall under the umbrella of paganism - wiccans, druids, etc - arrive at stonehenge and have an argument over how to celebrate dawn on mid-summer night.
Pettyness and politicisation - some people, fed up with the established religions (and quite vocally so) turn to paganism as a spiritual protest. I know this, because I worked with two, who were ready to bite on the slightest suggestion that their religion wasn't listed in a glowing light, and one who seriously chastised me when I pointed out that I had put "jedi" on my census (which, in itself, was a protest at religion anyway).
Wastefulness of faith in disprovable concepts. Applies to all faiths, so should be brief. Faith, by definition, is the self-inflicted belief in something which is hard to verify.
Spellcasting - some branches of paganism involve the casting of spells, which have never scientifically been observed to work. This includes projection, circles of protection, binding, sexual rituals, etc.
Islamic (and other Abrahamic faiths) opposition - when Mohammed invaded Medina, he was mostly attacking pagans, whom he deemed to be kafir. This should probably be a link to a more in-depth article of the events, rather than a brief article.
I don't want to pull this etymology and usage of paganus all to pieces, but here's the entry on pagus from Harry Thurston Peck, Harper's Dictionary of Classical Antiquity for anyone who wants to work some history into this section: [1] -- Wetman 09:45, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Although this article states that "Paganism" comes from "Paganus", meaning "rural", the word probably derives form "Pagani" meaning "civilian". This usage indicated how the Civilian religion of Paganism was believed to contrast with the non-civilian religion of Christianity. This information can be found in Fox, Robin "Pagans and Christians". ACEO 10:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
RE: Common word usage (Protestants regarding catholics, etc.) There's quite a bit missing here about "graven images" and the derogatory term "papists" which was used interchangeably with "pagans" for some time in Protestant thinking.
RE: Common word usage (Protestants.... oppressing adherents to European earth-based spiritual traditions) There's quite a big gap in information about the suppression of earth-based spirituality in the celtic/druid/gaullic groups. For example, the burning/hanging/drowning of witches, etc. Since this oppression is the root of my own objection to use of the term 'pagan', perhaps someone could enlighten me as to why its been left out of this wiki/post? Thanks, beachgum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.100.218 ( talk) 01:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed this here: "Christianity also became a major religion in the Roman army. Here pagani has meanings of non-combatant, pacifist, with attendant derision. From the widespread popularity of Christianity among slaves, the most numerous class in the Roman Empire, by contrast pagani acquired connotations of "uppity", "religious dissident" and so on to "heretic"." The Army was the last bastion of Mithras and Isis. There were no connotations of "pacifist" in paganii. "Uppity" is not a useful category in Late Antiquity. "Heretic" and "pagan" are confused only in the modern American prayer-meeting. -- Wetman 22:49, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Should Heathen have its own page? It seems to me that the term is related but it might need a separate page.-- Whiteash 15:56, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
I believe that it should. I have taken a mild offense to the fact that the word redirects to paganism or anything Pagan in general. It is this writer's opinion that "heathen" was a word developed by organized/mainstream religious types (ie., Christians) as a derogatory term for anybody believing differently than they do. Now, this may just be personal opinion but the term is rarely used in any Pagan references and may even be an obsolete word in modern times. I would have to say on this subject as well that the terms "Pagan" and "Paganism" are, if only slightly, two different topics altogether. While "Pagan" can be used to describe an individual following a non-mainstream religion, "Paganism" would be used to describe the non-mainstream religions themselves. The difference between a Druid and Druidism, for example, one is a person and the other is what that individual practices. As for outside faiths, Islam, Taoism and so on do not necessarily need a name to 'umbrella' them. They already have names that work just fine, to try to categorize religions that appear to be too different to accurately group would likely be a waste of time. Ultimately (this is a thought that just occurred to me) While trying to group those religions it may be deemed necessary to develop many different 'umbrellas' to group those religions in and in the process of that, you may find yourself grouping some religions together under many different 'umbrellas'. Pagans on the other hand are such a broad category that trying to figure out what one is and another is not would take too much time and usually confuse the common speaker. To call one or oneself Pagan is more like a generalized term used to 'umbrella' the many different religions that fall under its category, thusly making discussion a bit easier to handle. For instance, it would be easier to call myself pagan rather than take the time to define Wicca to somebody who was raised Christian/Jewish/other. At any rate, having the word 'heathen' to describe a Pagan just seems wrong to me and a bit dated. When looking at 'The New Catholic Dictionary', their use of the word 'heathen' sounds so derogatory, like they think Pagans and the like are nothing more than filthy animals. Comments and/or ideas on this subject welcome for discussion in depth at | Zeifer's Place. Zeifertstc 04:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
can someone explain why the article I am nearly done writing for Oh My Gods! had it's link removed from the page under the "see also" section? as a neopagan COMIC STRIP dealign with paganism, wicca and neo-paganism I would say it's 100% approperate under it's own SUBCATEGORY of comedy, where I had it
edit: I have gone ahead and added it back in, as the page is now up for the article (anonymous post from User:Shivian)
The link might be more appropriate in Wicca or Neopaganism than here. — Ashley Y 21:54, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
Basically, Paganism is a nature based religion. And some people just don't get that. I have had people tell me that it is "Devil Worship." Which is a false statement. Being Pagan myself, I know that Paganism is all about finding the beauty in all life. There are some evil souls out there, but they still have a soul. Now, from what I can gather, people who call us Pagans a "Devil Worship" cult, I believe they just don't know about the religion. Paganism is finding yourself, the beauty in life, a soul in everything, and respecting everything. And especially Mother Nature, because without her, we wouldn't be here today.
No they are not. Luckily you are not the officiado of the worlds religious terms.
sure the ancient names such as Baal, lucifer, satan were deities in their own right prior to christianity, but they were no more 'devils' than venus was a devil (even though she presided over death). to worship any of them is not to worship a devil, except in christian eyes of course. DavidP
There are different definitions. Some definitions define all pre-Christian religions, including Judaism, as Pagan. Some have it that all pre-Christian religions, not including Judaism, were Pagan. Some have it that Polytheism itself is Paganism. Others, like the person above, would have it that anything non-Abrahamic, including Atheism somehow, is Paganism.-8/6/06
Correction, Satan was not a diety in it's own right prior to Christianity. Rather, it is a verb meaning "to be hostile" or "to accuse" (to be adversarial). Simply put, it is both a verb and a title in Hebrew. ~Vito J.
Devil Worship and Atheism are NOT in any way related to the Pagan religions. The Pagan religions are a seperate sect of religious beliefs, and devil worship falls closer to christianity than it does paganism, seeing as how many pagans I know (including myself), do not believe in any single entity known as the devil. I say that devil worship falls closer to christian beliefs than pagan because the christian church expresses the ideas of satan, and devil worshippers take these ideas and worship the devil. therefore, many people (and I mean absolutely NO OFFENSE by this) could consider devil worship a branch of christianity, as it deals with the same deities and figures. Atheism is of course a complete lack of religion, and therefore not in any religious catagory of its own. -Brandon Richey
I think it may be used to further enhance knowledge of Neo-Paganism and/or Heathen if Heathen is ever to have a page of its own written. On Pagan or Paganism, no, I do not believe this book is relevant. Zeifertstc 04:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
this section is misleading, and rather ill-informed. The reason that paganism as opposed to pagan is only in use since the 17th century does not mean that paganism wasn't seen a unity, but simply that the -ism suffix only came in fashion in modern times. dab (ᛏ) 20:38, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't have much academic experience in religion, but I'm checking up on Dan Brown's suggestion that in the sweeping of Christianity over Paganism, women ultimately lost their cultural standing. Obviously I'm not taking to heart everything in the Da Vinci Code but I think it's an interesting area of history if it has truth in it. Can anyone point me in the direction of more information on women in paganism? Thanks.
I don't think paganism has a formal definition, except that given by neo pagans. While Dan Brown is certainly wrong, I believe there are some valid sources are theories of the role of religion in matriarchy vs. patriarchy preceding the introduction of Christianity. Rds865 ( talk) 07:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted in this that Heathen is a term that is used exclusivly to the Asatru religion as a name for its followers, and that Heathenry, and Paganism are indeed not the same thing. Heathens are not Pagans, and Pagans are not Heathens. In fact most Heathens consider it offencive to be confused with moderen pagans and Neopagans" as their religion is set in stone and followed as it was in Iceland and northern Europe before Roman domination. Differing greatly Neo-Paganism is a hoshposh of occult observances differing greatly from person to person, and place to place.(Anonymous)
If neopaganism has an article, and since it and pagan have so little in common, is it standard for there to be an extensive section on neopaganism in this article?
(cross-posted on Talk:Neopaganism) - I am placing the {{limitedgeographicscope}} template on both this article and Neopaganism, and here is why. I've been re-tagging some articles from Category:Religion stubs as paganism stubs and also placing the WikiProject Neopaganism template on appropriate article talk pages, and I've had some difficulty determining whether to do this with some articles, especially the numerous articles related to syncretic African religions. I went to the Wikipedia articles on paganism and neopaganism for guidance as to the scope of these terms, and found very little. In particular, I have noticed that all of the religions on the "list of pagan religions" in Paganism and all of the traditions listed in Neopaganism are explicitly European. Neopaganism comments that "Polytheistic or animistic traditions that survived into modern times relatively untouched by Christianity and Islam, like Shinto or Hinduism are not considered pagan nor neopagan," but no explanation is given for why non-European, pre-Christian, polytheistic religions that haven't survived (or their revivals) are not included on these lists. I think that this is an important issue that merits serious discussion and deliberation, and judging by the comments above, I'm not the only one. So... Are paganism and neopaganism strictly European phenomena? Are these terms used to refer to non-European religions? And should religions like Voodoo and Candomblé, both of which have been called "pagan" according to their articles, be included here? - AdelaMa e ( talk - contribs) 06:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
A discussion of usage and capitalization/hyphenation conventions for the terms N/neo(-)P/pagan and P/pagan is ongoing on the WikiProject talk page. Contributors to this article will likely be interested in participating. - AdelaMa e ( talk - contribs) 21:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed wwpn.org from the link list. There are no sources for their "FAQ" so I fell it falls along the lines of "personal opinion."
Also, there are goods for sale on the site, and posting the link here may be a sly way of advertisement. -- Toadsboon 09:05, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
During my studies of Paganism, there is one thing that I have learned beyond a doubt; there is virtually no agreement on the definition of 'Paganism' from one group to another.
I've been reading the discussions on this page and the Neopaganism page, and it seems as though people are trying to have the definition written the way they view it. I'm, by no means an expert, and I'm sure there are people on here who know a lot more about the subject than me, but I thought I would try to help clear the article up.
The first paragraph of this article would definately conflict with a lot of people's views. It is also inaccurate to say that the term is used primarily by Christians, although the definitions at the beginning of this article probably are. I think the only fact that all groups (except those who seem to think it's a religion itself) would agree on is that Paganism is a category of religions.
The etymology section would be a good place explain about the definitions of 'non-Christian' and 'non-Abrahamic', or could at least lead onto a section discussing them. After that, you could have a section talking Wicca and the Pagan revival that came along with it, and how they spawned definitions such as 'earth-based religions'. The same could be done for all common definitions, whilst explaining the etymology for each and why the current definition is the one found most often in dictionaries.
This is all my long-winded way of saying, I think this article should have subsections to address each of the common definitions of 'Paganism'.-- Jcvamp 01:00, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Paganism is a historical category: no educated person is applying it today. The idea has a history that is partly revealed in its etymology, and better revealed in its historical usage. The career of the idea "paganism" is being discussed in this article: Neo-paganism has its distinct article; our own opinions of paganism and what it may mean in today's schoolyards are irrelevant.
There are three ways to diddle about incompetently with this article, all of them broad avenues already well-trod:
A good definition of heathen would help clear fog from this discussion, it appears. Any "splitting" of articles is best done, not by cannibalizing a coherent existing article, but by creating sub-articles that expand upon specific aspects, with a Main article... heading. Anyone who doesn't understand the concept of nested articles, shouldn't be encouraged to chop about at random. -- Wetman 04:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I don't see why you imply that I don't accept the fact that there are many definitions. That's what I'm advocating here...
I like the idea of sub-headings (in fact, if you look up the page you'll see I've already suggested it myself), but, if you read Wetman's post carefully, you'll see that he's criticising certain definitions. To me, and I may be wrong, the main gist of the post was to say that the other definitions come from uneducated people, and therefore shouldn't be used.
I dislike a lot of the definitions too, but words change and we should discuss what the word 'Paganism' has come to mean. The article Man is about adult males (though in the disambiguation it mentions that it can refer to humans in general), but the word originally meant human. Why is Paganism any different?
If we are going to have an article with sub-headings for different definitions, we have to decide which definitions to use. My idea was to use the most common definitions.-- Jcvamp 23:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Should Shinto be considered a pagan religion? It is, after all, polytheistic with a heavy animistic and nature-oriented tinge. — Rickyrab | Talk 02:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
"Pagan" is the usual translation of the Islamic term mushrik, which refers to 'one who worships something other than God'. Sorry, I dont understand this statement. Is it translating the English word Pagan into Islamic(?) language? Or, actually, don't understand anyway.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anupamsr ( talk • contribs) .
To me, the essense of paganism is just a continuence of oral traditions which are important no matter who you are and to any religion, family etc. And which we miss so much in our shocking society. 'The world is too much with us'. [William Wordsworth]
I have no real disagreement with the idea that Wicca was recently founded, although based on the best scholarship available I would place its "founding" closer to the 1920s or 1930s. My objection is to it being singled out as a "recently founded" religion, while faiths like Neo-Druidism are "reconstructions" or even "revivals". The basic fact is that all these religions are attempting to revive something from the past, and all involve a degree of reconstruction. All are based on an imperfect historical knowledge. Neo-Druidism as it is popularly practiced today has little more historical "validity" than Wicca - the Druidic revival started in the 18th century, so it may predate Wicca in that sense, but it got an overhaul in the 20th Century. Ross Nichols and Gerald Gardner were collaborating together on the development of both their religions, from all accounts.
Asatru might be more historically accurate as a "revival", since it is based largely on a set of literary works of similar antiquity (but has its reconstructed elements, just as all the rest do); Wicca is perhaps more of a "reconstruction" since it has more diverse literary sources, ranging from Greek magical papyri to supposed Italian witch beliefs recorded by Charles Leland, to the theories of Margaret Murray. The fact that the validity of some of these texts is disputed in no way makes this any less of a valid attempt at "reconstruction" — and it's certainly not in a different boat to Neo-Druidism, the founding documents of which are widely thought to be pure invention.
Perhaps the thought is that Wicca can only be a "newly founded" religion since it's attempting to revive a European witchcraft, something which "never existed". This opinion would presumably be based on Ronald Hutton's writings, which take a rather extreme position, atypical of most of his academic peers in the field. Wider academic consensus recognises the existence of folk magic mixed with pagan or non-Christian beliefs throughout Europe right up to the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries (such as the Benandanti and groups identified as similar by Carlo Ginsburg). While these witchcraft-like beliefs were uncommon, they are well-known to modern historians were certainly not non-existent. In any case, if the intention is to say that Wicca is reconstructing something that never previously existed, that would be better expressed clearly and unambiguously in the article.
"Newly founded" sounds like Wicca has no interest in drawing from the past, which is quite misleading... Fuzzypeg ☻ 07:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I note we have a long series of "anti-paganism" quotations, all of which are from a loosely Christian perspective, and all of which, though prettily written, seem to be based on misconceptions of what a pagan world-view might be. C S Lewis' views are particularly horrid, seemingly founded in a puritanical self-loathing of any impulse which is not expressly aimed at God; Bigland's assumption that only the Abrahamic religions contain moral teachings is patently false; and while G K Chesterton comes the closest to expressing a valid idea with his description of taking joy in small things, he makes an unfounded assumption that pagans would fearfully avoid confronting the vast and the sublime. I don't see why the gods and the fates should be despotic or dead; these are the gods of the vast spaces that surround mankind, that we stare up to in the heavens. Pantheism, for instance, finds divinity in the largest as well as the smallest.
These quotations, it seems to me, are not so much attempting to understand paganism in a realistic manner, as to explore the authors' fears of straying from the path of Christ, since God is only "up there" and not "down here". The pagans these authors are talking about (with the possible exception of Chesterton) have bones through their noses and stew missionaries in pots. Fuzzypeg ☻ 02:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I hope my sub-dividing of the quotes section will be a good solution to your unease with them. 11:35, 12 September 2006 (EST)
I think the initial introduction of quotations was unfortunate since it was entirely given over to Christian apologists writing at a time when active hostility towards the old religions was part of Christian life. Some of Chesterton's remarks of negroes and Jews would be considered highly racist today and Lewis opinions on witch's would - effectively condoning capital punishment - would not go down well with those who practice Wicca today. There can be considerable resentment amongst pagans towards Christianity and its treatment of religions outside itself when it gained the ascendency - the "turn or burn" mentality. IMO the contributor of those quotations, whilst being well-meaning, has disturbed the balance of the article and it would be preferable that the whole of the quotations section, for and against paganism, be removed. Sept 12 2006
The Chesterton quote that's the lone entry now is definitely a keeper. 22 September 2006
I disagree because it is only another one of G.K Chesterton's sound bites that might have an appeal to Christians, or even some pagans who live in a Merry Olde England kind of world with the Christian veneer removed. I think they are unfair, they certainly do not represent my views as a pagan, and his broad brush strokes about despotic Gods could, without any difficulty, be applied to Yahweh and his ways - especially in the O.T. His generalised comments about pagans, the afterlife, their binding to earth etc are also clearly wrong and misrepresent the many possible pagan spiritual paths. I do not warm to the idea that the criteria for quotations should rest on their literary merits only - indeed the whole idea of a quotations sections lends itself to a war of soundbites. With respect I would ask that this be reconsidered and the quotation section be dropped completely as the article loses objectivity through its presence. 24 September 2006 1.55pm
82.40.208.36 13:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
It's interesting that the word heathen and Pagan are both discussed in a single article which is clearly almost exclusively on Pagan religion. While they may have been historically synonymous, they are not longer so in the modern world. More to the point, heathen has come to simply mean either not Christian or simply not monotheistic, including simply not religious:
So, it is misleading to imply that "heathen" is actually synonymous with, or even related to, Paganism, at least in modern usage, despite the fact that a few Pagans also call themselves Heathen.
The Tongan king was just interred - the BBC said he was buried with Pagan and Christian ceremonies. Can someone shed some light on what that means?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.2.209.90 ( talk • contribs)
Please see neopaganism's talk page for discussion.
There's a bit of a problem with how the religions are organized in the Paganism#Pagan religions and Paganism#Neo-pagan religions lists. Are we just going on self-identification, or whether it's an ancient or modern tradition? If a modern religion comes from an unbroken, polytheistic tradition, I assume we put it in "Pagan". If it's obviously a modern religion, I assume we put it in "Neopagan".
But right now, for instance, Asatru is mentioned in both sections, and Discordianism, which is obviously modern, is under "Pagan". I am going to "be bold" and sort this out a bit, but I'm sure others on this article will have an opinion on this. However, one of the problems is that these distinctions are not always clear-cut. Some traditions, such as Asatru and Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism, are polytheistic elaborations built on surviving cultural customs. They might be best described as partial reconstructions. I'm not sure how to address this grey area. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 21:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
On the surface, I would tend to restore the word "idolatry", as this was specifically referenced and, if I understand the faiths involved, essentially accurate. If anyone knows a less emotionally charged word for the same thing, please use it. -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 14:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the caption on this picture should not read "During the expansion of the Sokoto Caliphate in West Africa, Islamic Fulbe (Fula) labelled their non-Muslim neighbours, such as this Kapsiki, it is still unknown what the fuck this retard is staring at... diviner, Kirdi, or "pagans"."
Specifically "it is still unknown what the fuck this retard is staring at..." should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.9.100.255 ( talk) 07:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC).
An anonymous user ( 85.146.24.65) removed this map. I have restored it, without bias, and ask that it's removal or retention be discussed here. -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 17:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The picture of a man looking Islamic-Muslim-Mideastern-like seems inappropriate and misleading to the entire article - which focuses on the term "pagan" as latin and refers often to "Christianity". A translation of the term into other languages or cultures can be included here , but this image does not seem to represent any pagan majority or have genuine significance.
This insert appears to be inserting an image that is more misleading than informative or representative of what is herein described as Paganism, in all it's varieties. A more relevant image would be helpful. The current image should be replaced with an informative one, not misrepresenting the beliefs of pagan peoples.
If a picture is worth 100000 words, this image is not telling a truth.
The included sentence - "Historically, the term "pagan" has usually had pejorative connotations among westerners, comparable to heathen, infidel, and mushrik and kafir (كافر) in Islam." - is not a translation of the word "pagan". Tho "comparable", this additional sentence seems to be misplaced.
And as many of us do not think of "islam" as a category compared to "westeners" nor is "Islam" a language. As a culture or religion Islam is also found in the places from where "westeners' live. This is all a poor mixing of comparisons and seems to be an insertion intended for more than elucidation of the pagan story. Activistrep
With the history of the word being so distant, one would have to wonder what all possible meanings of this world there could be.. likewise, this word postdates Judaic religions,It has been debated that it's meaning meant the same thing at the time it was made.. IE Pagan = anything that is not in following with the Roman religion "due to roman religion being the key influence". I believe the biggest argument is that this word is a complete antonym to it's original meaning. Before the Romans allowed the criminal christians into the walls of Rome they were just "Pagans", and the Pagans could be arrested for being such.. IE the Myth of Jesus Christ.. A pagan that is widely known for his crimes against the Roman Empire and his Execution.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.60.32.94 ( talk) 21:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC).
24.13.244.169 added the following to the Notes and Reference section. I felt it had SOME info but needed to be discussed here first.
*1 The word pagan or rather "pohan" is similar to "pohon" as in Czech language or "połon" in Belarus, which describe people taken to settle from defeated country. Also pozo/pogo/poho/pagan-iać has the same meaning "sped up" as a command during column movement. The term pogan was used in and is related to pre-Christ era, as most Christian knows Jesus was not the first baptized Christian.
-- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 17:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
This section seems to be empty, save for a picture. Just thought I'd point it out. 24.91.39.160 16:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The recent addition of "Idol-worship" to the Paganism article is a bit problematic. Because the term is unfortunately negatively weighted by the Judeo-Christian Bible interpretation in Western society, I don't really think it's appropriate or accurately descriptive. I believe this is a translation problem. I would recommend using the more accurate murti worship or perhaps "icon-worship" or "deity-worship" which I believe would be more representative of the meaning being sought after here. I certainly think using the word murti somewhere in the article would be a good idea. Thoughts? -- Pigman talk • contribs 18:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Can the person who put the Latin quote into the text ("Apud hunc [sc. Christum] tam miles est paganus fidelis quam paganus est miles infidelis") please translate it? It seems awfully pretentious to quote like that, assuming everybody will understand it. 201.81.190.154 19:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I have cut from the article the following passage: " Sacrifice does not play a part in modern paganism today, as Paganism is a very peaceful religion, focusing on a principle to respect all beings." Apart from NPOV issues, some modern pagans do make offerings to the Gods. The idea of sacrifice doesn't automatically suggest harm to any other creature. GoldenMeadows 16:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that the fact that it calls Paganism a religion alone, should be reason enough to remove it. Also, based on the definition of Paganism provided by the article, most religions are Pagan, and it's impossible to speak for all of them in terms of beliefs.-- Jcvamp 18:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I reverted the article from changes made by 70.182.28.222. Im not sure what action to take beyond reverting the article, but do any more experienced Wikipedians want to do anything about it? Like blocking the address? Thanks Monkeymox 19:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Charred Feathers restored a See Also link to Pagan activism under Neopaganism, and asked in his edit summary why it was removed? I gotta ask, why was it restored? Pagan activism is just a redirect to Reclaiming (neopaganism). A number of the See also links I just gotta scratch my head over. Virtuous paganism??? Idolatry??? Both Christian concepts, or at least totally Christian-centric articles. I gotta laugh to keep from crying. -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. ( talk/ contribs) 06:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
think of it this way, at least there is discussion.... Charred Feathers 06:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Continuing on the above, this article needs cleanup. I'll try to do some today, but my time on WP right now is sort of limited. While I realize it's not always clear-cut whether the best designation for a religion/tradition is "Pagan" or "Neopagan", it does seem that we need to be more consistent throughout this article, and have a clearer policy for the links. For instance, when an obviously Neopagan group calls themselves simply "Pagan", I still think they need to be categorized as Neopagan; therefore, they'd be more appropriate to link to from the Neopaganism article than this one. On most of the Neopagan articles, and as discussed at Wikiproject Neopaganism, we've generally been following the guideline of capitalizing Pagan when it refers to religious Paganism, and only using lowercase when discussiong the "irreligious" definition. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 22:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm moving the following passage over here until someone can clean it up.
The American Religious Identity Survey 2001, [1] calculated that paganism formed the fifth largest [2] religion in the United States however if the broad definition of paganism is used, then paganism is the second largest group behind Christianity.
The largest percentage quantifiable growth is Wicca which has shown a near 17 fold increase in practising members over an 11 year period. [3] Paganism is Canada's fastest-growing religion, according to Statistics Canada. [4].
-- Toscaesque 05:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
this is a garbled version of Neopaganism in the United States. Also at Neopaganism#North_America. The fact of the matter is that Paganism is the sixth largest non-Christian religion in the US, after Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Unitarian Universalism. The "second largest" claim is based on bogus numbers of "5 million witches". To beat even Hinduism, there would need to be more than a million "Pagans" in the US. Even the neopagan sponsored http://www.cog.org/ poll of 1999 doesn't claim that many, finding 768,400 neopagans in the US and Canada taken together. Of course, you are free to define "paganism" as "non-Abrahamic", which would mean that there are only four religions, viz. Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Paganism. Then, of course, Paganism would be the largest non-Christian religion in the US. But such a definition is nonsensical, and no census would do such a thing. A reasonable number of US neopagans is around 300,000. If you want to count everyone sympathetic, you may argue for 500,000. To beat even Unitarian Universalism, you'd need to claim 900,000. -- dab (𒁳) 06:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that the section on etymology needs editing. It should refer to Robin Fox "Pagans and Christians" which says the word derives from "Pagani" meaning civilian, rather than perpetuate the popular view that this word derived from "Paganus" meaning rural. ACEOREVIVED 19:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
well, Kathryn, an "Etymology" section at "Paganism" is supposed to discuss the etymology of paganus, and it should be addressing readers who want to know that etymology. Sections can be skipped, and anyone not interested in the etymology can just not read it. In this sense, while Wikipedia should certainly be written "for the readers", it should be written for readers who want to know, not for the hypothetical "average" reader, who mostly appears to be slightly simple and not really interested. The section's content should be treated like that of any other section, subject to branching out if over-long: we do have such branched out specialized etymology articles, e.g. at god (word) or witch (etymology). dab (𒁳) 09:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
If the Indian religions are included, then 50 percent of the world's religions would be considered pagan.
I would like to suggest that we add to our list of external links the up and coming website www.neopagan.com. As a comparison to www.PaganNetwork.com, Neopagan.com offers much more information, more beautiful visuals, more purposeful content, a 3D game "Pagania Island", a Neopagan community and a different approach to providing information via philosophical (Plotinus, Plato, etc) references. The www.neopagan.com site seems to be unique by asking to embrace all who may call themselves Pagan or Neopagan, Atheist, or of the 'revealed religions'. Neopagan.com is a Neopagan network embracing the worldwide Neopagan or Pagan community and containing educational information as well as magickal tools. The main goal of this site, besides being an informative home for the entire Neopagan community, is to give everyone the possibility to experience the magickal essence of Gaia and the Universe using online tools and concepts that are especially tuned to achieve material, spiritual guidance and success.
RebeccaAnkh —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebecca2008 ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Can you help me understand where to find the "links normally to be avoided" information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebecca2008 ( talk • contribs) 16:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The article doesn't explain why the word for a "hillbilly" was used to describe non-Christians. This was because Christianity spread in cities and the rural europeans were the last to convert. Rds865 ( talk) 07:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
What's paynimry, and does it deserve such prominence? Totnesmartin ( talk) 09:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
OED has:
The lemma paynim has:
-- dab (𒁳) 14:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Recently, the main pictures were changed, from two which depicted real pagans actually practicing, to three woodcuts and etchings of pagans which are all historically dubious in their portayel. I think we should revert the images. What do others think? ( Midnightblueowl ( talk) 17:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC))
"Pagan" means " pre-Christian", not "polytheistic" in general. Much less "nature-based". I am not sure why "nature-based" is always brought into this, I have no idea what is supposed to be "nature based" about historical polytheism (or what this even means outside the New Age context). Greco-Roman paganism was perfectly urban. If you look at the article, you'll note that it doesn't support the "fact" you suggest. If paganism just meant "polytheism", we would need to merge this with polytheism immediately. -- dab (𒁳) 22:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
so characterisation of "pagan" as "pre-Christian" isn't scholarly, but characterisation as "nature-based" is? nature-based? Would you say that our society is "nature-based" because it generates its power from natural resources such as fossil oil and nuclear fission? I am sorry, but you seem to be just twisting words here. The term "nature-based" is used for New Age and Neopagan "Deep Ecology", not for historical paganism. Since you seem to claim otherwise (used in both scholarly and common English usage) feel free to prove me wrong by presenting your references. Feel free, for example, to substantiate your claim that Anglo-Saxon paganism has ever been described as nature-based (outside of Neopagan or New Age sources, of course). I see you have seen fit to remove the historic images again and replace them with random snapshots of folk religion and neopagan ritual. I suggest these do not belong here, or at least not in the lead. "Paganism" is clearly a Western-centric designation. It originally referred to all pre-Christian religions, and later, by extension, to all non-Christian traditions that resembled European pre-Christian ones in terms of being polytheistic or animistic. It is impossible to define "pagan" as independent from Western or Christian culture, since "pagan" would just end up being synonymous with "religious". -- dab (𒁳) 16:07, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Oh and the scholarly historical work A History of Pagan Europe by Jones and Pennick and published by Barnes and Noble in 1995 does indeed use the term "nature venerating religion", stating that one of the defining aspects of pagan religions is that they "view nature as a theophany, a manifestation of divinity, not as a 'fallen' creation of the latter". ( Midnightblueowl ( talk) 18:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC))
the idea that all myths ultimately had their origin in natural phenomena (seasons etc.) was a 19th century fad. Yes, polytheism also has room for personifications of natural phenomena, but that's by no means its defining feature. The proposition that paganism simply translates to nature worship is (a) either fluffy neopagan Romanticism, or (b) monotheist chauvinism with the implication that paganism is a "primitive" and now superseded stage in the history of religion. Motives (a) and (b) come from opposite sides of the ideological spectrum even though they support the same idea, and both are equally biased, and equally misguided. -- dab (𒁳) 22:09, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Is calling pagan a popular way of European discrimination against non-Abrahmic religions? The term as used in many books seems to denote somekind of insult based on religion similar to "cxxx" . Contribtutions to the article on these lines are appreciated. Be Bold and edit WP. Brothers in Arms ( talk) 21:52, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
why "racial"? The article is perfectly clear that this was a derogatory term in origin. Race has nothing to do with it. -- dab (𒁳) 22:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
I am talking "race" on the basis of religion one belongs to. In this case all non Abrahmic religions who traditionally believe in many Gods, Nauture forms and other things. Brothers in Arms ( talk) 11:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
"race" on the basis of religion one belongs to? I think you would do well to read our race article. You are trying to say " religious discrimination". "Pagan" is indeed a term of historical religious discrimination if you like. Today, it is also a self-designation. -- dab (𒁳) 11:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
cut from article:
that's all very interesting, and maybe worth discussing at the pomerium article, but it remains unclear what this is supposed to have to do with anything here. -- dab (𒁳) 18:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)