This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is a Wikipedia guideline which is usually used for people who deny being white supremacists or Nazis when all the media sources say they are, and I think the same logic can be used here. I have been alerted of a personal video in which Hasél denies the allegations of praising Al Qaeda, but the amount of sources that say this mean that WP:MANDY applies here. La Vanguardia (Catalanist newspaper), El Periodico (left-wing Catalanist newspaper), Diari di Girona (Catalan local paper), Ara (Catalanist newspaper), Público (practically Spain's Salon.com or Jacobin), EFE (Spain's AP). This is clearly not a smear from right-wing sources. Unknown Temptation ( talk) 16:23, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Repeating false information several times does not make it true.
These newspapers are obviously just copying information. Each time it is the same armed groups that are cited, always in the same order. However, Pablo Hasel has publicly proclaimed his support for many other organizations claiming to be Marxist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laconfe ( talk • contribs) 17:44, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
You have no evidence that this is false rather than your own assertions. Spain has a law against false accusations [1]. What is it, all of the sources are lying or Hasél is speaking for himself. However I'm tired of this so if anything I will ask for community involvement. Unknown Temptation ( talk) 19:05, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
If we are saying that all of these sources are wrong, then we may as well delete the article because it's cited completely from news outlets. What do you suggest we cite it from instead? Hasél himself? Unknown Temptation ( talk) 19:13, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Third Opinion: It is the policy of Wikipedia that even adequately sourced information cannot be included without consensus. See WP:ONUS which is part of the Verifiability Policy: "While information must be verifiable to be included in an article, not all verifiable information needs to be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." (Emphasis added.) See also WP:NOCONSENSUS from the consensus policy: "for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it." So the short answer here is, clearly, that the reference to Al Qaeda should be omitted until consensus is established for its inclusion. As to the sourcing issue, I do not have an opinion as to the acceptability of the cited sources, but that can be worked out when other editors are brought in to establish consensus, if the consensus is to include it. (And assistance on sourcing issues may be obtained from Reliable Sources Noticeboard.) If the sources prove to be reliable, then the reliability of the countersource should also be considered and if both sides are deemed reliable, then Wikipedia does not decide which is right. Instead both sides of the issue should be set out, with their supporting reliable sources, in the article. Finally, WP:MANDY is an essay and has no force or effect as a "rule" or standard in Wikipedia. One may argue that what said in an essay makes sense and ought be be the way things are, but that's nothing more than an argument with no more force or effect than any other argument made by an editor. Finally, understand that Third Opinions are not binding, they are not a tiebreaker, and do not "count" for consensus: they're just an opinion. Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 18:26, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Ok. Frankly I don't think any more editors are going to join this debate about a relatively minor figure, and I'm definitely not going to go to noticeboards and wikiprojects in an attempt to get these two words into the article. The world is not going to end by Wikipedia being one source not mentioning this. I thank transporter man for moderating Unknown Temptation ( talk) 13:21, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
I have included Hasél's response video. This is because the quotes needed to cite the support of the other groups says the A-Q word (nine times) so the word was still on the page, and I believe in right to response. If I did not include the response video, the only other option would be removing those sources completely. Unknown Temptation ( talk) 14:01, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Irrespective of what Pablo did or did not do: shouldn't Wikipedia respect self-defined national identity? You would not call Bobby Sands British (and he was a convicted violent offender). So why is Pablo Hasél called Spanish and not Catalan? If a non-primary source is needed for calling him Catalan, here it is: https://int.assemblea.cat/news/catalan-pablo-hasel-imprisoned-lyrics-against-spanish-monarchy/
Moreover, precedents abound. Nicola Sturgeon is listed as a Scottish politician, not British. Joanna Cherry, a member of the British Parliament, is also listed as Scottish and not British. (This is not the place to discuss controversies related to these politicians). Lewis Capaldi, a singer like Pablo, is also listed as Scottish and not British. Scotland is a self-governing entity, so is Catalonia. By this same standard Pablo is a Catalan rapper.
I will make the edit tomorrow unless there is a clear argument to the contrary, taking into account the precedents I cited. Calling him Catalan is mere respect for identity and does not prejudge whether he was or was not guilty of any crime. Ramendik ( talk) 17:17, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
I think Girrit's contribution [6] of Feb 19th has to be reviewed. Hasel is not imprisoned for the sake of being "Catalan", but rather because of the tweets he made, the lyrics of his songs, or an addition of some other previous penalties, which differ from the fact of him being Catalan or Catalan Independentist. Actually, he is very critic of the Catalan Independentist "proces". Let me also note that rigour should be applied at the time of defining facts such as "Nationality". While we agree that Hasel is a Catalan, his nationality is Spanish. Also, I think that adding such an entry as "Citizenship" does not contribute to create a neutral framework to the article.
As it stands at the moment Catalan points to a disambiguation page - I think this should be piped to Catalans but there is a note saying "Do not change, see talk page discussion". The link to Paul] is also a dab page.— Rod talk 20:27, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
I think you can make a comparison to the UK where citizens are called Welsh, Scottish etc. I think it's also worth pointing out that Catalan is a recognized nationality in the Spanish Constitution. PailSimon ( talk) 10:11, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I also agree with @ Laocon: as saying his nationality is "Catalan" is just ridiculous. There isn't anything such as Catalan Nationality. He's a Spaniard born in Spain from Spanish parents, so he's Spanish. Saying Catalans are not Spanish are politics and propaganda made by the pro-independence supporters as being Catalan is being Spanish, just as Galicians or Castilians. Can't compare this with the United Kingdom as Wales or Scotland are fully recognised countries, which are part of the UK, the sovereign state. Spain is a federation, the example can be done with Germany and Bavaria, Catalonia is an autonomous community not a country. Spain is not an union of countries like the UK, but a federation like Germany. -- 154.28.188.241 ( talk) 07:19, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
This last comment is not a little tendentious. For a start, it is simply not true that the term 'nationality', at least in English, is a sociological as well as a legal (rather than political, as stated) construct - let alone that it is not a clear notion, a ridiculous comment to make. As recorded in the OED [15], nationality is inherently a legal term, and a well-defined one indeed (see entries 3a and 3b) - it applies insofar a nation-state confers certain rights to certain people. It seems to me that you are conflating 'nationality' with 'national identity', two terms that are not interchangeable - the latter, as is the case with many other group identities, is indeed a sociological concept, and in a way that nationality clearly isn't. Note, further, that describing Hasel's nationality as Catalan, or Nicola Sturgeon's as Scottish, an example used above, would warrant stating that Hasel is a Catalan national and Sturgeon a Scottish national, and in English this is quite infelicitous, as there are no Catalan or Scottish nation-states to confer any such status to them. Another matter completely is whether Hasel identifies as (exclusively) Catalan or Sturgeon as (mostly) Scottish. I personally think that it's perfectly fine to refer to Hasel as Catalan rather than Spanish in the main text and to include some information about his identity and beliefs (though these are not clear-cut), but adding the formula Nationality=Catalan to the infobox signals the wrong interpretation for an English-speaking person - as stated, the word triggers a legal concept, not a sociological one. I also think it's a little tendentious to use the Citizenship=Spanish formula instead, as it is rather arbitrary here and could be construed as an attempt to please Catalan nationalists (no need to refer to any IPs, an unwarranted slight, in my opinion). The following article from The Economist on the relationship between nationality and citizenship is useful, and I would note that Hasel is technically both a Spanish national and a Spanish citizen [16].
But anyway, how about not including anything at all in the infobox, in fact? I have noticed that there is no such information on Sturgeon's infobox, and though one may be somewhat assured that readers will understand that a Scottish person is by default a British national (and citizen), I would like to think that most readers will reach a similar conclusion in the case of a Catalan person.
Oh, and by the way, the reference to 'nacionalidades históricas' from the Spanish Constitution is really beside the point here, mostly because the word 'nationality' is obviously not an appropriate translation of this complex noun phrase (and, in any case, the phrase itself appears to be closer to the concept of 'national identities' than to anything else, as explained here: [17]).
There is also the mess regarding Hasel's real first name, which is clearly Pablo and not Pau (for some reason, some Catalan newspapers insist on translating it into Catalan), but I leave that for another day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.75.9.30 ( talk) 12:38, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
@ PailSimon: Could you better explain your changes per WP:LEAD? Hasél has been convicted of assault in at least three occasions, the text that you removed accurately represents the article's content. -- NoonIcarus ( talk) 12:15, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I found an official source confirming that his first name is officially "Pablo". I therefore changed the lead to show only "Pablo", and added a new section to explain his different names. Girrit ( talk) 12:34, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
Pablo Hasèl was convicted for his texts and tweets, based on the "Citizen Security Law" introduced in 2015.
Please see Wikipedia MOS and other Catalan figures who are all referred to as Spanish on Wikipedia. Artur Mas, Pep Guardiola, Pau Gasol, Gerard Pique and a long etc. No need to discuss this further but will take it to noticeboard and/or arbitration if required. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historian734 ( talk • contribs) 18:27, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Just to be clear. This battle has been fought and lost dozens of times on Wikipedia so I suggest you guys desist from trying again.-- Historian734 ( talk) 18:47, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is a Wikipedia guideline which is usually used for people who deny being white supremacists or Nazis when all the media sources say they are, and I think the same logic can be used here. I have been alerted of a personal video in which Hasél denies the allegations of praising Al Qaeda, but the amount of sources that say this mean that WP:MANDY applies here. La Vanguardia (Catalanist newspaper), El Periodico (left-wing Catalanist newspaper), Diari di Girona (Catalan local paper), Ara (Catalanist newspaper), Público (practically Spain's Salon.com or Jacobin), EFE (Spain's AP). This is clearly not a smear from right-wing sources. Unknown Temptation ( talk) 16:23, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Repeating false information several times does not make it true.
These newspapers are obviously just copying information. Each time it is the same armed groups that are cited, always in the same order. However, Pablo Hasel has publicly proclaimed his support for many other organizations claiming to be Marxist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laconfe ( talk • contribs) 17:44, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
You have no evidence that this is false rather than your own assertions. Spain has a law against false accusations [1]. What is it, all of the sources are lying or Hasél is speaking for himself. However I'm tired of this so if anything I will ask for community involvement. Unknown Temptation ( talk) 19:05, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
If we are saying that all of these sources are wrong, then we may as well delete the article because it's cited completely from news outlets. What do you suggest we cite it from instead? Hasél himself? Unknown Temptation ( talk) 19:13, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Third Opinion: It is the policy of Wikipedia that even adequately sourced information cannot be included without consensus. See WP:ONUS which is part of the Verifiability Policy: "While information must be verifiable to be included in an article, not all verifiable information needs to be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." (Emphasis added.) See also WP:NOCONSENSUS from the consensus policy: "for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it." So the short answer here is, clearly, that the reference to Al Qaeda should be omitted until consensus is established for its inclusion. As to the sourcing issue, I do not have an opinion as to the acceptability of the cited sources, but that can be worked out when other editors are brought in to establish consensus, if the consensus is to include it. (And assistance on sourcing issues may be obtained from Reliable Sources Noticeboard.) If the sources prove to be reliable, then the reliability of the countersource should also be considered and if both sides are deemed reliable, then Wikipedia does not decide which is right. Instead both sides of the issue should be set out, with their supporting reliable sources, in the article. Finally, WP:MANDY is an essay and has no force or effect as a "rule" or standard in Wikipedia. One may argue that what said in an essay makes sense and ought be be the way things are, but that's nothing more than an argument with no more force or effect than any other argument made by an editor. Finally, understand that Third Opinions are not binding, they are not a tiebreaker, and do not "count" for consensus: they're just an opinion. Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 18:26, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Ok. Frankly I don't think any more editors are going to join this debate about a relatively minor figure, and I'm definitely not going to go to noticeboards and wikiprojects in an attempt to get these two words into the article. The world is not going to end by Wikipedia being one source not mentioning this. I thank transporter man for moderating Unknown Temptation ( talk) 13:21, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
I have included Hasél's response video. This is because the quotes needed to cite the support of the other groups says the A-Q word (nine times) so the word was still on the page, and I believe in right to response. If I did not include the response video, the only other option would be removing those sources completely. Unknown Temptation ( talk) 14:01, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Irrespective of what Pablo did or did not do: shouldn't Wikipedia respect self-defined national identity? You would not call Bobby Sands British (and he was a convicted violent offender). So why is Pablo Hasél called Spanish and not Catalan? If a non-primary source is needed for calling him Catalan, here it is: https://int.assemblea.cat/news/catalan-pablo-hasel-imprisoned-lyrics-against-spanish-monarchy/
Moreover, precedents abound. Nicola Sturgeon is listed as a Scottish politician, not British. Joanna Cherry, a member of the British Parliament, is also listed as Scottish and not British. (This is not the place to discuss controversies related to these politicians). Lewis Capaldi, a singer like Pablo, is also listed as Scottish and not British. Scotland is a self-governing entity, so is Catalonia. By this same standard Pablo is a Catalan rapper.
I will make the edit tomorrow unless there is a clear argument to the contrary, taking into account the precedents I cited. Calling him Catalan is mere respect for identity and does not prejudge whether he was or was not guilty of any crime. Ramendik ( talk) 17:17, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
I think Girrit's contribution [6] of Feb 19th has to be reviewed. Hasel is not imprisoned for the sake of being "Catalan", but rather because of the tweets he made, the lyrics of his songs, or an addition of some other previous penalties, which differ from the fact of him being Catalan or Catalan Independentist. Actually, he is very critic of the Catalan Independentist "proces". Let me also note that rigour should be applied at the time of defining facts such as "Nationality". While we agree that Hasel is a Catalan, his nationality is Spanish. Also, I think that adding such an entry as "Citizenship" does not contribute to create a neutral framework to the article.
As it stands at the moment Catalan points to a disambiguation page - I think this should be piped to Catalans but there is a note saying "Do not change, see talk page discussion". The link to Paul] is also a dab page.— Rod talk 20:27, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
I think you can make a comparison to the UK where citizens are called Welsh, Scottish etc. I think it's also worth pointing out that Catalan is a recognized nationality in the Spanish Constitution. PailSimon ( talk) 10:11, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I also agree with @ Laocon: as saying his nationality is "Catalan" is just ridiculous. There isn't anything such as Catalan Nationality. He's a Spaniard born in Spain from Spanish parents, so he's Spanish. Saying Catalans are not Spanish are politics and propaganda made by the pro-independence supporters as being Catalan is being Spanish, just as Galicians or Castilians. Can't compare this with the United Kingdom as Wales or Scotland are fully recognised countries, which are part of the UK, the sovereign state. Spain is a federation, the example can be done with Germany and Bavaria, Catalonia is an autonomous community not a country. Spain is not an union of countries like the UK, but a federation like Germany. -- 154.28.188.241 ( talk) 07:19, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
This last comment is not a little tendentious. For a start, it is simply not true that the term 'nationality', at least in English, is a sociological as well as a legal (rather than political, as stated) construct - let alone that it is not a clear notion, a ridiculous comment to make. As recorded in the OED [15], nationality is inherently a legal term, and a well-defined one indeed (see entries 3a and 3b) - it applies insofar a nation-state confers certain rights to certain people. It seems to me that you are conflating 'nationality' with 'national identity', two terms that are not interchangeable - the latter, as is the case with many other group identities, is indeed a sociological concept, and in a way that nationality clearly isn't. Note, further, that describing Hasel's nationality as Catalan, or Nicola Sturgeon's as Scottish, an example used above, would warrant stating that Hasel is a Catalan national and Sturgeon a Scottish national, and in English this is quite infelicitous, as there are no Catalan or Scottish nation-states to confer any such status to them. Another matter completely is whether Hasel identifies as (exclusively) Catalan or Sturgeon as (mostly) Scottish. I personally think that it's perfectly fine to refer to Hasel as Catalan rather than Spanish in the main text and to include some information about his identity and beliefs (though these are not clear-cut), but adding the formula Nationality=Catalan to the infobox signals the wrong interpretation for an English-speaking person - as stated, the word triggers a legal concept, not a sociological one. I also think it's a little tendentious to use the Citizenship=Spanish formula instead, as it is rather arbitrary here and could be construed as an attempt to please Catalan nationalists (no need to refer to any IPs, an unwarranted slight, in my opinion). The following article from The Economist on the relationship between nationality and citizenship is useful, and I would note that Hasel is technically both a Spanish national and a Spanish citizen [16].
But anyway, how about not including anything at all in the infobox, in fact? I have noticed that there is no such information on Sturgeon's infobox, and though one may be somewhat assured that readers will understand that a Scottish person is by default a British national (and citizen), I would like to think that most readers will reach a similar conclusion in the case of a Catalan person.
Oh, and by the way, the reference to 'nacionalidades históricas' from the Spanish Constitution is really beside the point here, mostly because the word 'nationality' is obviously not an appropriate translation of this complex noun phrase (and, in any case, the phrase itself appears to be closer to the concept of 'national identities' than to anything else, as explained here: [17]).
There is also the mess regarding Hasel's real first name, which is clearly Pablo and not Pau (for some reason, some Catalan newspapers insist on translating it into Catalan), but I leave that for another day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.75.9.30 ( talk) 12:38, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
@ PailSimon: Could you better explain your changes per WP:LEAD? Hasél has been convicted of assault in at least three occasions, the text that you removed accurately represents the article's content. -- NoonIcarus ( talk) 12:15, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I found an official source confirming that his first name is officially "Pablo". I therefore changed the lead to show only "Pablo", and added a new section to explain his different names. Girrit ( talk) 12:34, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
Pablo Hasèl was convicted for his texts and tweets, based on the "Citizen Security Law" introduced in 2015.
Please see Wikipedia MOS and other Catalan figures who are all referred to as Spanish on Wikipedia. Artur Mas, Pep Guardiola, Pau Gasol, Gerard Pique and a long etc. No need to discuss this further but will take it to noticeboard and/or arbitration if required. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historian734 ( talk • contribs) 18:27, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Just to be clear. This battle has been fought and lost dozens of times on Wikipedia so I suggest you guys desist from trying again.-- Historian734 ( talk) 18:47, 13 March 2021 (UTC)