This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
food and
drink related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Food and drinkWikipedia:WikiProject Food and drinkTemplate:WikiProject Food and drinkFood and drink articles
Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review
WP:Trivia and
WP:Handling trivia to learn how to do this.
Add the {{WikiProject Food and drink}} project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,
select here.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Minnesota, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to
Minnesota on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MinnesotaWikipedia:WikiProject MinnesotaTemplate:WikiProject MinnesotaMinnesota articles
This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
project-independent quality rating in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
Seconding Another Believer. What's the problem here,
The Banner? I understand you're from Ireland and that you specialize in Michelin stars; does that mean you not recognize the James Beard awards as notable? As of 2019,
Michelin doesn't rate Minneapolis restaurants. A James Beard is notable, and this chef,
Sean Sherman has won three of them, all national not regional.
Regarding notability:
WP:ORGCRIT is already satisfied, and I've added more sources below.
Weasel word: "a decolonized menu". My doubt about the notability is caused by the fact that you have two sources about the opening and three sources about a newcomer award. Nothing more. So the article fails to prove its notability. The Bannertalk08:15, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
The Banner: you were shown extra courtesy here and at Minneapolis talk because you are a member of WikiProject Food and Drink. To repeat, I am looking for an article that you approve of. All I found is a list of Stubs. Nobody is bashing you. Can you please point to an example of what you're talking about? -
SusanLesch (
talk)
19:06, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm afraid without any example being provided that the tags should come off, Another Believer. It is nonsensical to aspire to something undefined. Of course I'm still willing to work with you, The Banner, but will need to see a model. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
19:35, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Okay, parts that can be removed as being irrelevant:
Architects Hammel, Green and Abrahamson built Owamni on the ruins of the Columbia Mill, in the space occupied from 1967 to 1990 by Minnesota's first Japanese restaurant, Fuji Ya.[4] Outside around the restaurant, 50 native species are planted, among them wild ginger, chokeberry, sumac, white cedar, lady fern, white pine, and purple prairie clover.[4]
In 2014, Sherman opened The Sioux Chef, a for-profit entity, to cater food, educate the public, and to run the Tatanka Truck food truck.[5] Thompson owns 40 percent of the Sioux Chef and half its governance.[6] In 2016, the two submitted a restaurant proposal to the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board.[4] Around 2017, Sherman and Thompson started to build Owamni and founded the non-profit NATIFS (North American Traditional Indigenous Food Systems).[5][7] In 2020, their NATIFS Indigenous Food Lab opened in the Midtown Global Market,[8] where a community fund allows them to give a bowl of pozole or chili and a cup of tea to any person who asks.[9]
@
The Banner: Per
WP:AUD and
WP:THREE, we now have two national sources and one international: La Liste, The New York Times, and the James Beard Foundation. I believe that's all it takes to establish notability. Would you please remove your tags? Thank you. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
20:44, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The second is just an essay, no policy or guideline. Per
WP:AUD: Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. Note hereby strong indication what is something else then proof. The Bannertalk20:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
The Banner: Agreed about the essay but in WP:AUD you cut off the conclusion. And that's not fair. WP:AUD concludes, "at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary." This article more than meets notability guidelines. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
20:58, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry, that is not how I read it. Especially as the same page states here at
Examples of trivial coverage: listing of award recipients. The Bannertalk21:21, 20 December 2022 (UTC) And yes, not even a star in the Michelin Guide makes a restaurant notable. What makes it notable is the significant coverage in other reliable, independent, in-depth sources.reply
You are really fascinated by what I have written in the past. And sorry, I am not writing your articles or assisting with that. I just apply my tough, critical look. The Bannertalk22:05, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
SusanLesch: Please assume good faith. Digging for mud in an editors past and throwing it at them because they disagree with you is inappropriate. This is not the first time I have had to remind you to respect other editors.
Magnolia677 (
talk)
00:02, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Your post just closed off my work for the day. No thank you. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 00:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC) P.S. @
Magnolia677: In the future, would you please post to my talk page instead of interrupting conversations? No harm done. Thank you. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
21:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
The Banner: I'll be back soon to complete the section on the unique menu. I hope you'll remove anything you don't like and the tags too when the time comes. I added a little bit back for context. Thank you, it's coming along. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
14:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There is no need to ping me each and every time. I have this page on my watchlist.
The use of restaurant reviews as sources is frowned upon. Avoid them when possible. Reason for that is that it makes it too easy to stray into advertising. The Bannertalk15:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
And you should judge (and when possible improve) the present article. Not focus on what I wrote in the past. Most of my articles are short by choice as I want to avoid what I see as spamming (like menus, qotes from reviewers etc.). You have to accept that, not bash it. The Bannertalk19:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I have some questions about this section: The restaurant is co-owned by Dana Thompson and Sean Sherman, who is also the head chef.[1] As of 2015, Thompson owns 40 percent of the Sioux Chef and half its governance.[2]
According to the first sentence Sherman is still head chef, something that is denied by the source of the second sentence.
What is the relevance of an even "as of 2015" for a restaurant opened in 2021? What is the relevance of "Sioux Chief" anyway? Parent company? Never explained in the article.
Of course it can be fixed. I can only work part-time on this. (I wish you would help. Your photo suggestion on Minneapolis was very helpful, thank you.) -
SusanLesch (
talk)
18:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
And is it possible to reduce the menu-section? It is now an advertisement for the menu. Please halve it and summarize it. A short list of the main native foods is sufficient. The Bannertalk21:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Another Believer: this article is potentially a GA. I understand that The Banner doesn't like my style, but we started with a Stub. Can you bear with me while I build this up a little more? A good first step would be DYK. If you disagree, I will happily remove everything I added. Thank you. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
23:35, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Be bold and feel free to continue expanding the article as you see fit! I have no problem with The Banner identifying content concerns but I do not think the tags are necessary. I hope other editors will weigh in as well. I'd like to help out more here but I'm having to follow quite a few discussions and work on a bunch of other restaurant articles because of some recent deletion nominations. ---
Another Believer(
Talk)23:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I am sorry to tell you this but it's really wasteful of my time to read all this muck when it does not apply. I'll have to read it all over again in another context. At the front Help screen I tried a search for "unnecessary detail." The first two pages seem to be direct copies of the GA criterion, "stays
focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see
summary style)." There we find two links to learn more: "Focused on the topic" is linked to article size (this Owamni article is probably too small, not too big, at < 1Kb). "Unnecessary detail" is unlinked but parentheses are provided linking to summary style, where
WP:AVOIDSPLIT cautions that "if only a few sentences could be written and supported by sources about the subject, that subject does not qualify for a separate article..." So I read that that trimming this more risks deletion. After researching this, I have trouble understanding what you talking about.
Thank you for the advice. I recently learned at
WP:WL that "without even getting into secondary sets of rules there are about 73 official policy pages and about 280 official guideline pages" on Wikipedia, so please forgive me when answers aren't jumping off the page. I'll continue to study CIR. In the list of the world's best 50, 4 restaurants are over Start class. That's a start. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
17:40, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The menu begins with shareable starters. Game offerings include duck sausage,[1] and amaranth tostadas with dip made from
tepary beans and smoked trout.[2] Owamni serves a crispy cricket seed mix[2] with chili and maple as an appetizer[3] and toasted crickets for croutons in salad.[4] Plant starters[3] include maple chile crisp served on roasted sweet potatoes.[5] Owamni serves bison tartare, garnished with
wasna.[2] Curled crackers in the dish are made of wild rice and corn's ancestor,
teosinte.[2] Corn sandwiches are arepas heaped with ground elk, sweet potatoes and pepitas.[4] Other sandwiches are turkey with sprouts, or the
three sisters: black bean pureé, pickled squash, and corn.[3] Dessert could be a tart with wild rice crust holding sweet parsnip and squash, topped with berries and flowers.[6] Sunflower seed and honey cake is frosted with agave squash caramel.[7] A parfait of foraged berries alternates with walnut cream made of maple syrup and walnuts.[2]
^Cite error: The named reference Kormann was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
^Cite error: The named reference Burton was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
^Cite error: The named reference Ellis was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
Suggested new text:
Some of the dishes served include amaranth tostadas with dip made from
tepary beans and smoked trout, a crispy cricket seed mix with chili and maple, bison tartare, garnished with
wasna and curled crackers made of wild rice and corn's ancestor,
teosinte.[1] Also served are sandwiches arepas heaped with ground elk, sweet potatoes and pepitas,[2] or turkey with the
three sisters: black bean pureé, pickled squash, and corn.[3]
^Cite error: The named reference Jackson was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
^Cite error: The named reference menu was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
There is no need to mention each and every item in the menu. The reference list looks now rather dodgy, but that is caused by references declared else whwere in the text than this section.The Bannertalk10:15, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I incorporated your version and added a sentence. What looks dodgy to you? I am trying hard to satisfy your requirements, which seem to be the opposite of DYK and GA, in that you like shrinking text to focus, not expanding as I tend to do naturally. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
17:18, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
For articles and places there is far less risk of advertising. Contrary to what most people think, more is not always better as you can loose yourself in irrelevant details. Selecting the essentials is difficult and when I write I tend to be cautious: when in doubt, leave it out. The Bannertalk18:02, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I like the new photo and I'm trying to find a good way to avoid
MOS:SANDWICH. The infobox apparently only takes one (some will take more). So far best I can do is far right, under the map. But maybe someone here knows a trick with the multiple image template? -
SusanLesch (
talk)
20:05, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Feel free to remove or adjust as you see fit. I prefer the sandwiched text over the large white column created by the infobox stretching down into the References section, but that's just me and my screen. You've put the most work into this article (thanks, by the way!) so please illustrate to your preferences. :) ---
Another Believer(
Talk)20:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Well I figured out the multiple image template, and reduced the logo size. I think the sign needs to be cropped. But here I see you removed it so I will, too. BTW,
MOS:TEXTASIMAGES gives good alternatives (alt text, captions, and running prose). -
SusanLesch (
talk)
23:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
food and
drink related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Food and drinkWikipedia:WikiProject Food and drinkTemplate:WikiProject Food and drinkFood and drink articles
Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review
WP:Trivia and
WP:Handling trivia to learn how to do this.
Add the {{WikiProject Food and drink}} project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,
select here.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Minnesota, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to
Minnesota on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MinnesotaWikipedia:WikiProject MinnesotaTemplate:WikiProject MinnesotaMinnesota articles
This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
project-independent quality rating in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
Seconding Another Believer. What's the problem here,
The Banner? I understand you're from Ireland and that you specialize in Michelin stars; does that mean you not recognize the James Beard awards as notable? As of 2019,
Michelin doesn't rate Minneapolis restaurants. A James Beard is notable, and this chef,
Sean Sherman has won three of them, all national not regional.
Regarding notability:
WP:ORGCRIT is already satisfied, and I've added more sources below.
Weasel word: "a decolonized menu". My doubt about the notability is caused by the fact that you have two sources about the opening and three sources about a newcomer award. Nothing more. So the article fails to prove its notability. The Bannertalk08:15, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
The Banner: you were shown extra courtesy here and at Minneapolis talk because you are a member of WikiProject Food and Drink. To repeat, I am looking for an article that you approve of. All I found is a list of Stubs. Nobody is bashing you. Can you please point to an example of what you're talking about? -
SusanLesch (
talk)
19:06, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm afraid without any example being provided that the tags should come off, Another Believer. It is nonsensical to aspire to something undefined. Of course I'm still willing to work with you, The Banner, but will need to see a model. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
19:35, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Okay, parts that can be removed as being irrelevant:
Architects Hammel, Green and Abrahamson built Owamni on the ruins of the Columbia Mill, in the space occupied from 1967 to 1990 by Minnesota's first Japanese restaurant, Fuji Ya.[4] Outside around the restaurant, 50 native species are planted, among them wild ginger, chokeberry, sumac, white cedar, lady fern, white pine, and purple prairie clover.[4]
In 2014, Sherman opened The Sioux Chef, a for-profit entity, to cater food, educate the public, and to run the Tatanka Truck food truck.[5] Thompson owns 40 percent of the Sioux Chef and half its governance.[6] In 2016, the two submitted a restaurant proposal to the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board.[4] Around 2017, Sherman and Thompson started to build Owamni and founded the non-profit NATIFS (North American Traditional Indigenous Food Systems).[5][7] In 2020, their NATIFS Indigenous Food Lab opened in the Midtown Global Market,[8] where a community fund allows them to give a bowl of pozole or chili and a cup of tea to any person who asks.[9]
@
The Banner: Per
WP:AUD and
WP:THREE, we now have two national sources and one international: La Liste, The New York Times, and the James Beard Foundation. I believe that's all it takes to establish notability. Would you please remove your tags? Thank you. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
20:44, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The second is just an essay, no policy or guideline. Per
WP:AUD: Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. Note hereby strong indication what is something else then proof. The Bannertalk20:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
The Banner: Agreed about the essay but in WP:AUD you cut off the conclusion. And that's not fair. WP:AUD concludes, "at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary." This article more than meets notability guidelines. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
20:58, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry, that is not how I read it. Especially as the same page states here at
Examples of trivial coverage: listing of award recipients. The Bannertalk21:21, 20 December 2022 (UTC) And yes, not even a star in the Michelin Guide makes a restaurant notable. What makes it notable is the significant coverage in other reliable, independent, in-depth sources.reply
You are really fascinated by what I have written in the past. And sorry, I am not writing your articles or assisting with that. I just apply my tough, critical look. The Bannertalk22:05, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
SusanLesch: Please assume good faith. Digging for mud in an editors past and throwing it at them because they disagree with you is inappropriate. This is not the first time I have had to remind you to respect other editors.
Magnolia677 (
talk)
00:02, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Your post just closed off my work for the day. No thank you. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 00:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC) P.S. @
Magnolia677: In the future, would you please post to my talk page instead of interrupting conversations? No harm done. Thank you. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
21:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
The Banner: I'll be back soon to complete the section on the unique menu. I hope you'll remove anything you don't like and the tags too when the time comes. I added a little bit back for context. Thank you, it's coming along. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
14:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There is no need to ping me each and every time. I have this page on my watchlist.
The use of restaurant reviews as sources is frowned upon. Avoid them when possible. Reason for that is that it makes it too easy to stray into advertising. The Bannertalk15:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
And you should judge (and when possible improve) the present article. Not focus on what I wrote in the past. Most of my articles are short by choice as I want to avoid what I see as spamming (like menus, qotes from reviewers etc.). You have to accept that, not bash it. The Bannertalk19:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I have some questions about this section: The restaurant is co-owned by Dana Thompson and Sean Sherman, who is also the head chef.[1] As of 2015, Thompson owns 40 percent of the Sioux Chef and half its governance.[2]
According to the first sentence Sherman is still head chef, something that is denied by the source of the second sentence.
What is the relevance of an even "as of 2015" for a restaurant opened in 2021? What is the relevance of "Sioux Chief" anyway? Parent company? Never explained in the article.
Of course it can be fixed. I can only work part-time on this. (I wish you would help. Your photo suggestion on Minneapolis was very helpful, thank you.) -
SusanLesch (
talk)
18:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
And is it possible to reduce the menu-section? It is now an advertisement for the menu. Please halve it and summarize it. A short list of the main native foods is sufficient. The Bannertalk21:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Another Believer: this article is potentially a GA. I understand that The Banner doesn't like my style, but we started with a Stub. Can you bear with me while I build this up a little more? A good first step would be DYK. If you disagree, I will happily remove everything I added. Thank you. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
23:35, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Be bold and feel free to continue expanding the article as you see fit! I have no problem with The Banner identifying content concerns but I do not think the tags are necessary. I hope other editors will weigh in as well. I'd like to help out more here but I'm having to follow quite a few discussions and work on a bunch of other restaurant articles because of some recent deletion nominations. ---
Another Believer(
Talk)23:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I am sorry to tell you this but it's really wasteful of my time to read all this muck when it does not apply. I'll have to read it all over again in another context. At the front Help screen I tried a search for "unnecessary detail." The first two pages seem to be direct copies of the GA criterion, "stays
focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see
summary style)." There we find two links to learn more: "Focused on the topic" is linked to article size (this Owamni article is probably too small, not too big, at < 1Kb). "Unnecessary detail" is unlinked but parentheses are provided linking to summary style, where
WP:AVOIDSPLIT cautions that "if only a few sentences could be written and supported by sources about the subject, that subject does not qualify for a separate article..." So I read that that trimming this more risks deletion. After researching this, I have trouble understanding what you talking about.
Thank you for the advice. I recently learned at
WP:WL that "without even getting into secondary sets of rules there are about 73 official policy pages and about 280 official guideline pages" on Wikipedia, so please forgive me when answers aren't jumping off the page. I'll continue to study CIR. In the list of the world's best 50, 4 restaurants are over Start class. That's a start. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
17:40, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The menu begins with shareable starters. Game offerings include duck sausage,[1] and amaranth tostadas with dip made from
tepary beans and smoked trout.[2] Owamni serves a crispy cricket seed mix[2] with chili and maple as an appetizer[3] and toasted crickets for croutons in salad.[4] Plant starters[3] include maple chile crisp served on roasted sweet potatoes.[5] Owamni serves bison tartare, garnished with
wasna.[2] Curled crackers in the dish are made of wild rice and corn's ancestor,
teosinte.[2] Corn sandwiches are arepas heaped with ground elk, sweet potatoes and pepitas.[4] Other sandwiches are turkey with sprouts, or the
three sisters: black bean pureé, pickled squash, and corn.[3] Dessert could be a tart with wild rice crust holding sweet parsnip and squash, topped with berries and flowers.[6] Sunflower seed and honey cake is frosted with agave squash caramel.[7] A parfait of foraged berries alternates with walnut cream made of maple syrup and walnuts.[2]
^Cite error: The named reference Kormann was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
^Cite error: The named reference Burton was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
^Cite error: The named reference Ellis was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
Suggested new text:
Some of the dishes served include amaranth tostadas with dip made from
tepary beans and smoked trout, a crispy cricket seed mix with chili and maple, bison tartare, garnished with
wasna and curled crackers made of wild rice and corn's ancestor,
teosinte.[1] Also served are sandwiches arepas heaped with ground elk, sweet potatoes and pepitas,[2] or turkey with the
three sisters: black bean pureé, pickled squash, and corn.[3]
^Cite error: The named reference Jackson was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
^Cite error: The named reference menu was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
There is no need to mention each and every item in the menu. The reference list looks now rather dodgy, but that is caused by references declared else whwere in the text than this section.The Bannertalk10:15, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I incorporated your version and added a sentence. What looks dodgy to you? I am trying hard to satisfy your requirements, which seem to be the opposite of DYK and GA, in that you like shrinking text to focus, not expanding as I tend to do naturally. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
17:18, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
For articles and places there is far less risk of advertising. Contrary to what most people think, more is not always better as you can loose yourself in irrelevant details. Selecting the essentials is difficult and when I write I tend to be cautious: when in doubt, leave it out. The Bannertalk18:02, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I like the new photo and I'm trying to find a good way to avoid
MOS:SANDWICH. The infobox apparently only takes one (some will take more). So far best I can do is far right, under the map. But maybe someone here knows a trick with the multiple image template? -
SusanLesch (
talk)
20:05, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Feel free to remove or adjust as you see fit. I prefer the sandwiched text over the large white column created by the infobox stretching down into the References section, but that's just me and my screen. You've put the most work into this article (thanks, by the way!) so please illustrate to your preferences. :) ---
Another Believer(
Talk)20:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Well I figured out the multiple image template, and reduced the logo size. I think the sign needs to be cropped. But here I see you removed it so I will, too. BTW,
MOS:TEXTASIMAGES gives good alternatives (alt text, captions, and running prose). -
SusanLesch (
talk)
23:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply