![]() | Disambiguation | |||
|
![]() | This page was nominated at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion on 22 June 2020. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
![]() | On 6 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Orthodox Church (disambiguation). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
This page has alternated between being a redirect and being a disambiguation page. I have changed it back to being a disambig after it had spent some time as a redirect; partly I did this as it had been changed from disambig to redirect by a "minor" edit, without changes to the talk page, which crossed the borderline between being bold and being reckless, especially since the Eastern Orthodox Church is not the only Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church is in fact a major denomination of Christianity. If this becomes a disambig, it's worth keeping reference to Western Orthodoxy and Assyrian Orthodoxy too. If it becomes a redirect, it should really be to Orthodox Christianity, not Eastern Orthodox Church which is just one example of Orthodox Christianity. However, I think that it is worth maintaining this as a separate disambig page since not all churches with "Orthodox" in their name fall into what is normally described as Orthodox Christianity (I am thinking in particular of some of the Continuing Anglican, Old Catholic etc churches). Further, "Orthodox Christianity" suffers from a mild NPOV problem in that some of the movements there may actually be characterised or described as "hererodox"! This page at least can refer to churches that describe themselves, or are commonly described as, "Orthodox", without suffering from a similar argument. TheGrappler 13:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Following the wiki guidelines, I've simplified the page and removed excess explanation. I removed the following paragraph:
It was not clear what "This" referred to--the "Eastern Orthodox Church" as a whole? Next to the correct link, the first line could be useful. The rest of the paragraph belongs in an actual article.
I also removed the following, which followed "Eritrean Orthodox Church":
This also seems to belong in an article, but again I am not sure which specific group was meant by "the movement." -- Iggle 07:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
The lists on this page are duplicated in other places such as Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Eastern Christianity. Would it be agreeable to make this a redirect to Orthodox Christianity, a disambiguation page with links to the foregoing? Chonak 07:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Given that there are currently over 1,200 links to Orthodox Church, I've restored the buried history of this page, that was buried when Eastern Orthodox Church was temporarily deemed to be the primary topic. Clearly, there is no consensus on this matter, and when there is no consensus the default should always be to disambiguate – there needs to be a strong consensus to establish a primary topic. But clearly, "Orthodox Church" never could be interpreted to mean Orthodox (album), so it will be a lot easier to disambiguate links if this doesn't redirect to Orthodox. Links to this are already partially disambiguated to an Orthodox Church. – wbm1058 ( talk) 18:24, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
@ Wbm1058: @ Omnipaedista: what do you think of the current look of the page? Veverve ( talk) 20:33, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
@ Wbm1058: You have turned the article into a SIA. However, this article has led for more than 10 years to the Eastern Orthodox Church article. I think the Orthodox Church article should be considered a disambiguation page until most "Orthodox Church" hyperlinks are disambiguated. Veverve ( talk) 12:52, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
@ BD2412: I agree with @ Somerby:'s change; I think this version should be restored. Veverve ( talk) 23:53, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Coming here from WP:DPL, this is my take:
feature shared byEastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Churches and Orthodox Presbyterian Church, only the title similarity. The BCA is Eastern Christianity but it includes not only Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Churches but also Eastern Catholic Churches and Eastern Protestant churches -- Northumber ( talk) 16:43, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
The Eastern Orthodox Church adheres to the orthodoxy portrayed mainly in the first seven ecumenical councils, while the Oriental Orthodox Churches define their orthodoxy as based on the first three ecumenical councils alone." So maybe retarget Orthodox churches to Orthodoxy. This page should remain a disambiguation, and I'm happy to see that someone else picked up the ball I intentionally dropped back on April Fools Day (in the last section above). "Orthodox Church" is the ambiguous proper name of a specific church, and not a broad concept which would be indicated by lower-casing "church". – wbm1058 ( talk) 17:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
retarget[ing] Orthodox churches to Orthodoxy. Veverve ( talk) 18:28, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Proposal: we should end up with both a Set index article, and a disambig page. Here's how I think that should happen:
There should be both a disambig (probably at the current title, but not with the current rev history), and a Set index article, probably with the title Orthodox churches and retaining the article history of this page. If accepted, this would mean:
Some advantages of this scheme, are:
Regarding the development of the SIA, I think it should evolve beyond where it ever was here, and not be a simple list, and could be developed in various ways. My first thought is a hierarchical list somewhat like the #Other section in rev. 1055809487 ( here), but with each entry listed having a brief description (a sentence to a paragraph) as a list article would have—which is fine and within bounds for a SIA—and wikilinked to the main article. (Or, for paragraph-long items, with {{ Main}} or {{ Further}} links at section top.) It should also contain one (or more) of the hierarchical denomination charts available, such as c:File:Major denominational groups and heresies within Christianity.svg, c:File:Historical Branches and Sects of Christianity.png, c:File:Christianity_major_branches.svg or any of the many diagrams available in Commons. As an intro section at the top, I'd paste a copy of Orthodoxy § Christianity (per Wbm1058's suggestion), possibly thinned a bit.
I'm shamelessly stealing most of these ideas from those who have contributed before me, so thanks for that; I see my role here as organizing or focusing the best of those into a concrete proposal we can discuss. I'm not structuring this as an Rfc because I see this as still in the brainstorming stage, and it may morph based on discussion. If an Rfc is needed (hoping it won't), we can figure out what it should be about and how to word it later. Mathglot ( talk) 01:44, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) ~Styyx Talk? 17:50, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
Orthodox Church → Orthodox Church (disambiguation) – Although 'Orthodox Church' may refer not only to the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church is the primary topic for this term. A topic is primary for 'Orthodox Church' with respect to usage because it is much more likely be the topic sought. All three tools prove this:
The redirect
List of Orthodox churches has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 14 § List of Orthodox churches until a consensus is reached.
Veverve (
talk)
14:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
List of Orthodox Churches has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 14 § List of Orthodox Churches until a consensus is reached.
Veverve (
talk)
14:25, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Disambiguation | |||
|
![]() | This page was nominated at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion on 22 June 2020. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
![]() | On 6 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Orthodox Church (disambiguation). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
This page has alternated between being a redirect and being a disambiguation page. I have changed it back to being a disambig after it had spent some time as a redirect; partly I did this as it had been changed from disambig to redirect by a "minor" edit, without changes to the talk page, which crossed the borderline between being bold and being reckless, especially since the Eastern Orthodox Church is not the only Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church is in fact a major denomination of Christianity. If this becomes a disambig, it's worth keeping reference to Western Orthodoxy and Assyrian Orthodoxy too. If it becomes a redirect, it should really be to Orthodox Christianity, not Eastern Orthodox Church which is just one example of Orthodox Christianity. However, I think that it is worth maintaining this as a separate disambig page since not all churches with "Orthodox" in their name fall into what is normally described as Orthodox Christianity (I am thinking in particular of some of the Continuing Anglican, Old Catholic etc churches). Further, "Orthodox Christianity" suffers from a mild NPOV problem in that some of the movements there may actually be characterised or described as "hererodox"! This page at least can refer to churches that describe themselves, or are commonly described as, "Orthodox", without suffering from a similar argument. TheGrappler 13:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Following the wiki guidelines, I've simplified the page and removed excess explanation. I removed the following paragraph:
It was not clear what "This" referred to--the "Eastern Orthodox Church" as a whole? Next to the correct link, the first line could be useful. The rest of the paragraph belongs in an actual article.
I also removed the following, which followed "Eritrean Orthodox Church":
This also seems to belong in an article, but again I am not sure which specific group was meant by "the movement." -- Iggle 07:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
The lists on this page are duplicated in other places such as Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Eastern Christianity. Would it be agreeable to make this a redirect to Orthodox Christianity, a disambiguation page with links to the foregoing? Chonak 07:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Given that there are currently over 1,200 links to Orthodox Church, I've restored the buried history of this page, that was buried when Eastern Orthodox Church was temporarily deemed to be the primary topic. Clearly, there is no consensus on this matter, and when there is no consensus the default should always be to disambiguate – there needs to be a strong consensus to establish a primary topic. But clearly, "Orthodox Church" never could be interpreted to mean Orthodox (album), so it will be a lot easier to disambiguate links if this doesn't redirect to Orthodox. Links to this are already partially disambiguated to an Orthodox Church. – wbm1058 ( talk) 18:24, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
@ Wbm1058: @ Omnipaedista: what do you think of the current look of the page? Veverve ( talk) 20:33, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
@ Wbm1058: You have turned the article into a SIA. However, this article has led for more than 10 years to the Eastern Orthodox Church article. I think the Orthodox Church article should be considered a disambiguation page until most "Orthodox Church" hyperlinks are disambiguated. Veverve ( talk) 12:52, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
@ BD2412: I agree with @ Somerby:'s change; I think this version should be restored. Veverve ( talk) 23:53, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Coming here from WP:DPL, this is my take:
feature shared byEastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Churches and Orthodox Presbyterian Church, only the title similarity. The BCA is Eastern Christianity but it includes not only Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Churches but also Eastern Catholic Churches and Eastern Protestant churches -- Northumber ( talk) 16:43, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
The Eastern Orthodox Church adheres to the orthodoxy portrayed mainly in the first seven ecumenical councils, while the Oriental Orthodox Churches define their orthodoxy as based on the first three ecumenical councils alone." So maybe retarget Orthodox churches to Orthodoxy. This page should remain a disambiguation, and I'm happy to see that someone else picked up the ball I intentionally dropped back on April Fools Day (in the last section above). "Orthodox Church" is the ambiguous proper name of a specific church, and not a broad concept which would be indicated by lower-casing "church". – wbm1058 ( talk) 17:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
retarget[ing] Orthodox churches to Orthodoxy. Veverve ( talk) 18:28, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Proposal: we should end up with both a Set index article, and a disambig page. Here's how I think that should happen:
There should be both a disambig (probably at the current title, but not with the current rev history), and a Set index article, probably with the title Orthodox churches and retaining the article history of this page. If accepted, this would mean:
Some advantages of this scheme, are:
Regarding the development of the SIA, I think it should evolve beyond where it ever was here, and not be a simple list, and could be developed in various ways. My first thought is a hierarchical list somewhat like the #Other section in rev. 1055809487 ( here), but with each entry listed having a brief description (a sentence to a paragraph) as a list article would have—which is fine and within bounds for a SIA—and wikilinked to the main article. (Or, for paragraph-long items, with {{ Main}} or {{ Further}} links at section top.) It should also contain one (or more) of the hierarchical denomination charts available, such as c:File:Major denominational groups and heresies within Christianity.svg, c:File:Historical Branches and Sects of Christianity.png, c:File:Christianity_major_branches.svg or any of the many diagrams available in Commons. As an intro section at the top, I'd paste a copy of Orthodoxy § Christianity (per Wbm1058's suggestion), possibly thinned a bit.
I'm shamelessly stealing most of these ideas from those who have contributed before me, so thanks for that; I see my role here as organizing or focusing the best of those into a concrete proposal we can discuss. I'm not structuring this as an Rfc because I see this as still in the brainstorming stage, and it may morph based on discussion. If an Rfc is needed (hoping it won't), we can figure out what it should be about and how to word it later. Mathglot ( talk) 01:44, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) ~Styyx Talk? 17:50, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
Orthodox Church → Orthodox Church (disambiguation) – Although 'Orthodox Church' may refer not only to the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church is the primary topic for this term. A topic is primary for 'Orthodox Church' with respect to usage because it is much more likely be the topic sought. All three tools prove this:
The redirect
List of Orthodox churches has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 14 § List of Orthodox churches until a consensus is reached.
Veverve (
talk)
14:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
List of Orthodox Churches has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 14 § List of Orthodox Churches until a consensus is reached.
Veverve (
talk)
14:25, 14 April 2023 (UTC)