This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the topics of Kurds and Kurdistan, broadly construed, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
as usual with "ethnic origin" stuff, the topic has been extensively WP:BOMBARDed. It's useful to have all this literature as a starting point for further editorial work, but it certainly cluttered up the main Kurds article. So hopefully it can develop here without too much spillover to other topics. -- dab (𒁳) 18:18, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Reviewing this, I think it is important to cleanly separate
Note that the question of the name is again distinct; if the Carduchi are among the ancestors of both Talysh and Kurds, but the Talysh are not Kurds, then the Kurds cannot claim the Carduchi as their exclusive forebears even if they inherit their name. Ethnogenesis would then take place around the process separating the Talysh from the Kurds, and both groups would develop out of a predecessor group around that time.
Nothing precise can be said about the time-frame, of course. Paul in Encyclopedia Iranica does give a responsible sketch when he says that West Iranian was still a coherent group in the Old Iranian period, and Northwest Iranian would have been coherent during the Middle Iranian period. Any development of groups within Northwest Iranian would take place in the New Iranian period, i.e. during the 10th century onward. Developments that concern the common ancestors of all Northwestern Iranians are more sensibly treated in an article about West or Northwest Iranians, and not in an article on a selected ethnicity within Northwestern Iranian -- dab (𒁳) 15:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
just see at semsuris history of edits that how he removed well sourced info and distortion the sentences, he and other pro kurdish editors removed sources about median language and central iranian dialects connection , removed and censored info about zaza_gorani languages and ethnic background of them; removed and censored the well sourced info about the location of the proto kurds and where the contemporary Kurdish dialects was formed.censore strong elements of SW iranian languages in kurdish dialects and shockingly how they misreport the van Bruinessens view on kurdish_median connection and CENSORE G.asatrians viewpoint. i hope someone watch these vandalism @historyofiran Frederichchopin ( talk) 02:35, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
historyofiran Frederichchopin ( talk) 02:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
HistoryofIran Frederichchopin ( talk) 02:56, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
@[ [ user : HistoryofIran | HistoryofIran ] ] Frederichchopin ( talk) 02:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
@ HistoryofIran Frederichchopin ( talk) 02:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
The source given in this article is referencing Godfrey Rolles Driver and it says, "It is not unlikely that the earliest trace of the Kurds is to be found on a Sumerian clay-tablet, of the third millennium b.c on which "the land of Kar-da"or "Qar-da" is mentioned." It is an old source and does not go in to detail or explain how he came to the conclusion that it is referring to the Kurds of today. The book Sophene, Gordyene, and Adiabene: Three Regna Minora of Northern Mesopotamia Between East and West by Michał Marciak explains on pages 220 and 221;
It is frequently stated that Gordyene was “an apparently Kurdish or protoKurdish state,” and that its population were ancestors of the modern Kurds. However, this identification, which is apparently based on the similarity of the names of the two peoples, the Καρδοῦχοι and the Kurds (as well as on a very partial overlap of the inhabited territories), is rejected by many scholars on linguistic grounds. In terms of linguistic connections, the ancient root in question is Qardū (in Καρδοῦ-χοι, Cordu-eni, Cordu-ena, Γορδυ-ηνή, Γορδυ-αία, Γορδυ-αῖοι) and it is not akin to the root Kurd-. At the same time, the root Kurd- appears to correspond to the root Kurt. Therefore, if any ancient people could be suggested as possible ancestors of the Kurds, they are the Κύρτιοι (the Greek Κύρτιοι attested in Polyb. 5.52.5 and Strabo Geog. 11.13.3, 15.3.1, and the Latin Cyrtii or Cyrtaei known from Liv., 37.40.9 and 42.58.13). The Κύρτιοι were a warlike nomadic people living in the Zagros Mountains who appear in sources as mercenary slingers—in the service of the Median governor, Molon against Antiochos III, but with Antiochos III against the Romans at Magnesia in 190 BCE, and again hired by Eumenes II, king of Pergamon at Kallinikos (171 BCE). However, it appears that the name was applied to early-medieval Kurdish tribes not as an ethnic term but a social designation of nomadic way of life.
On page 216 and 217 it says;
Although in referring to the conquests of Tigranes II the Great, both Strabo (Geog. 16.1.24) and Plutarch (Plutarch, Luc. 21–36, Pomp. 30–36;) made it clear that the Gordyaeans were distinct from the Armenians, Armenian sources picture Gordyene as part of the fourth-century-CE Great Armenian Commonwealth in political, cultural, and religious terms. In particular, rulers of Korduk‘ are presented as taking part in Pan-Armenian national events under (more de iure than de facto) supervision of the Armenian kings (e.g. BP 3.9; 4.50). Likewise, Korduk‘ is depicted as the scene of missionary activity of several well-known religious figures traditionally seen as the Armenian national saints, patriarchs Gregory the Illuminator (Aa 842), Šałita, and Epip‘an (BP 3.14). At same time, Gordyene is prominently present in the Syriac world. First, Gordyene comes to the fore in the Syriac Bible as the home to the landing site of Noah’s ark. Second, numerous acts of ecclesiastical councils composed in Greek shows that the diocese of Beth Qardū (Gordyene) together with the dioceses of Beth Arzun (Arzanene), Beth Zabdai (Zabdikene), Beth Raḥimai (Rehimene), and Beth Moksāyē (Moxoene) firmly belonged to SyriacNestorian Christianity with its main center in Nisibis. Third, Syriac sources referring to monastic life thriving in Beth ‘Arbāyē clearly shows that it took place not only in the Ṭūr ʿAbdīn region (for which it is nowadays famous), but also in the mountains of Qardū (Gordyene) and Arzun (Arzanene). All in all, it appears that the land of the Karduchoi presented by Xenophon in the fifth century BCE as a political and cultural enclave came under the influence of two main cultural influences, from Armenia in the north and from the Mesopotamian plain in the south. In terms of pure numbers, it appears that Gordyene’s connection with Mesopotamian cultures was stronger. This conclusion also appears firmer if we take account of the exaggerating tendencies of the Armenian sources to see the Transtigritanae regiones as part of the Armenian commonwealth.
Also, Karda was a social term. The etymology of Karda is warrior, or gallantry. It was not used to describe an ethnic group. It was also used to refer to animals in Assyrian folklore. Here is a paper that explains this on page 169: https://www.academia.edu/66370273/Qardo_and_the_Mountain_of_K%C4%93will%C4%81_Noah_s_Ark_and_its_Landing_Place_in_Assyrian_Syriac_Texts_And_Folklore
-- TukultīApilEšarra ( talk) 23:55, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Acaunto: Can you give explain why we should one specific bit of one of the many legends about the Kurds' background? Basically saying "I don't like it" is not a good reason, see WP:JDLI. HistoryofIran ( talk) 23:13, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Godfrey Rolles Driver have been cited several times in the article including in the intro. It appears that the scholar isn’t specialized in that topic in the first place, his specialization is in Semetic languages and Assyriology, not in kurdish history or iranology in the first place. I don’t think he is a relevant source and support the removal of his content from the article. But i am not sure about that, so does anyone agree or disagree with this ? Turkishmanship ( talk) 22:00, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the topics of Kurds and Kurdistan, broadly construed, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
as usual with "ethnic origin" stuff, the topic has been extensively WP:BOMBARDed. It's useful to have all this literature as a starting point for further editorial work, but it certainly cluttered up the main Kurds article. So hopefully it can develop here without too much spillover to other topics. -- dab (𒁳) 18:18, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Reviewing this, I think it is important to cleanly separate
Note that the question of the name is again distinct; if the Carduchi are among the ancestors of both Talysh and Kurds, but the Talysh are not Kurds, then the Kurds cannot claim the Carduchi as their exclusive forebears even if they inherit their name. Ethnogenesis would then take place around the process separating the Talysh from the Kurds, and both groups would develop out of a predecessor group around that time.
Nothing precise can be said about the time-frame, of course. Paul in Encyclopedia Iranica does give a responsible sketch when he says that West Iranian was still a coherent group in the Old Iranian period, and Northwest Iranian would have been coherent during the Middle Iranian period. Any development of groups within Northwest Iranian would take place in the New Iranian period, i.e. during the 10th century onward. Developments that concern the common ancestors of all Northwestern Iranians are more sensibly treated in an article about West or Northwest Iranians, and not in an article on a selected ethnicity within Northwestern Iranian -- dab (𒁳) 15:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
just see at semsuris history of edits that how he removed well sourced info and distortion the sentences, he and other pro kurdish editors removed sources about median language and central iranian dialects connection , removed and censored info about zaza_gorani languages and ethnic background of them; removed and censored the well sourced info about the location of the proto kurds and where the contemporary Kurdish dialects was formed.censore strong elements of SW iranian languages in kurdish dialects and shockingly how they misreport the van Bruinessens view on kurdish_median connection and CENSORE G.asatrians viewpoint. i hope someone watch these vandalism @historyofiran Frederichchopin ( talk) 02:35, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
historyofiran Frederichchopin ( talk) 02:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
HistoryofIran Frederichchopin ( talk) 02:56, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
@[ [ user : HistoryofIran | HistoryofIran ] ] Frederichchopin ( talk) 02:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
@ HistoryofIran Frederichchopin ( talk) 02:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
The source given in this article is referencing Godfrey Rolles Driver and it says, "It is not unlikely that the earliest trace of the Kurds is to be found on a Sumerian clay-tablet, of the third millennium b.c on which "the land of Kar-da"or "Qar-da" is mentioned." It is an old source and does not go in to detail or explain how he came to the conclusion that it is referring to the Kurds of today. The book Sophene, Gordyene, and Adiabene: Three Regna Minora of Northern Mesopotamia Between East and West by Michał Marciak explains on pages 220 and 221;
It is frequently stated that Gordyene was “an apparently Kurdish or protoKurdish state,” and that its population were ancestors of the modern Kurds. However, this identification, which is apparently based on the similarity of the names of the two peoples, the Καρδοῦχοι and the Kurds (as well as on a very partial overlap of the inhabited territories), is rejected by many scholars on linguistic grounds. In terms of linguistic connections, the ancient root in question is Qardū (in Καρδοῦ-χοι, Cordu-eni, Cordu-ena, Γορδυ-ηνή, Γορδυ-αία, Γορδυ-αῖοι) and it is not akin to the root Kurd-. At the same time, the root Kurd- appears to correspond to the root Kurt. Therefore, if any ancient people could be suggested as possible ancestors of the Kurds, they are the Κύρτιοι (the Greek Κύρτιοι attested in Polyb. 5.52.5 and Strabo Geog. 11.13.3, 15.3.1, and the Latin Cyrtii or Cyrtaei known from Liv., 37.40.9 and 42.58.13). The Κύρτιοι were a warlike nomadic people living in the Zagros Mountains who appear in sources as mercenary slingers—in the service of the Median governor, Molon against Antiochos III, but with Antiochos III against the Romans at Magnesia in 190 BCE, and again hired by Eumenes II, king of Pergamon at Kallinikos (171 BCE). However, it appears that the name was applied to early-medieval Kurdish tribes not as an ethnic term but a social designation of nomadic way of life.
On page 216 and 217 it says;
Although in referring to the conquests of Tigranes II the Great, both Strabo (Geog. 16.1.24) and Plutarch (Plutarch, Luc. 21–36, Pomp. 30–36;) made it clear that the Gordyaeans were distinct from the Armenians, Armenian sources picture Gordyene as part of the fourth-century-CE Great Armenian Commonwealth in political, cultural, and religious terms. In particular, rulers of Korduk‘ are presented as taking part in Pan-Armenian national events under (more de iure than de facto) supervision of the Armenian kings (e.g. BP 3.9; 4.50). Likewise, Korduk‘ is depicted as the scene of missionary activity of several well-known religious figures traditionally seen as the Armenian national saints, patriarchs Gregory the Illuminator (Aa 842), Šałita, and Epip‘an (BP 3.14). At same time, Gordyene is prominently present in the Syriac world. First, Gordyene comes to the fore in the Syriac Bible as the home to the landing site of Noah’s ark. Second, numerous acts of ecclesiastical councils composed in Greek shows that the diocese of Beth Qardū (Gordyene) together with the dioceses of Beth Arzun (Arzanene), Beth Zabdai (Zabdikene), Beth Raḥimai (Rehimene), and Beth Moksāyē (Moxoene) firmly belonged to SyriacNestorian Christianity with its main center in Nisibis. Third, Syriac sources referring to monastic life thriving in Beth ‘Arbāyē clearly shows that it took place not only in the Ṭūr ʿAbdīn region (for which it is nowadays famous), but also in the mountains of Qardū (Gordyene) and Arzun (Arzanene). All in all, it appears that the land of the Karduchoi presented by Xenophon in the fifth century BCE as a political and cultural enclave came under the influence of two main cultural influences, from Armenia in the north and from the Mesopotamian plain in the south. In terms of pure numbers, it appears that Gordyene’s connection with Mesopotamian cultures was stronger. This conclusion also appears firmer if we take account of the exaggerating tendencies of the Armenian sources to see the Transtigritanae regiones as part of the Armenian commonwealth.
Also, Karda was a social term. The etymology of Karda is warrior, or gallantry. It was not used to describe an ethnic group. It was also used to refer to animals in Assyrian folklore. Here is a paper that explains this on page 169: https://www.academia.edu/66370273/Qardo_and_the_Mountain_of_K%C4%93will%C4%81_Noah_s_Ark_and_its_Landing_Place_in_Assyrian_Syriac_Texts_And_Folklore
-- TukultīApilEšarra ( talk) 23:55, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Acaunto: Can you give explain why we should one specific bit of one of the many legends about the Kurds' background? Basically saying "I don't like it" is not a good reason, see WP:JDLI. HistoryofIran ( talk) 23:13, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Godfrey Rolles Driver have been cited several times in the article including in the intro. It appears that the scholar isn’t specialized in that topic in the first place, his specialization is in Semetic languages and Assyriology, not in kurdish history or iranology in the first place. I don’t think he is a relevant source and support the removal of his content from the article. But i am not sure about that, so does anyone agree or disagree with this ? Turkishmanship ( talk) 22:00, 3 May 2023 (UTC)