Classical music | ||||
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This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
As far as I can tell, lilypond files only exist for BWV 528 and BWV 529 (they are on mutopia). Audio files have been created using non-free software on the Walter Icking archive (linked on IMSLP), but do not have usable source files and the midi files have the wrong Creative Commons license for wikipedia ("non-commercial"). They also do not sound like an organ rendition in any way at all. Starting with the existing lilypond files, I will add ornamentation and phrasing to create ogg files with baroque organ soundfonts. Usually registrations depends on the individual organ, but in the world of synthesised music, Jeux d'orgues has a very diverse collection of baroque soundfonts. I can therefore follow what my preferred organists do for these works. Most of all I like Isoir, but there are all the others like M-C Alain, Walcha, Koopman, Johannson and Foccroule. There are also all the English organists, especially the late John Scott. But the sound will be that of a baroque organ (like the reconstructed Bach organs of Daniel Kern, which I'm used to), not an English organ. This might take some time. Mathsci ( talk) 10:39, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
I am evidently busy editing ths article. That is evident with the empty sections waiting to be filled. Until I have created that [reliminary content, could other editors stay away? It will take roughly two weeks to create the article. If you see an empty section, that is an indication that the preliminary editing is not complete. Thanks, Mathsci ( talk) 06:30, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was:
Moved. Consensus is abundant for renaming this page; however, controversy lies in whether or not "sonatas" is a proper noun in this case. I see no consensus for one way or the other, so we have to go with the cited
naming convention guideline and reliable sources. The nom's assertion in the last post: ...scholarly sources are in unison afaics: they all capitalise "Sonatas" when talking about this set of compositions...
, is correct. The random sources I checked all treated "Sonatas" as a proper noun. (
non-admin closure) Â
Paine Â
u/
c 12:54, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Organ sonatas, BWV 525–530 → Organ Sonatas (Bach) – Same structure of the article title as Cello Suites (Bach). See also preliminary discussion at Talk:List of organ compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach#Sonatas: content of list page, and spin-off article, and guidance at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music), in particular WP:NCM#Capitalization of generic names, "Fixed set" principle. Francis Schonken ( talk) 07:17, 8 September 2016 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru ( talk) 13:18, 15 September 2016 (UTC)--Relisting. — JFG talk 13:23, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.The main article on the Bach violin sonatas is entitled Six Sonatas for Violin and Harpsichord, BWV 1014–1019. Francis Schonken has been editing that article on and off. He edited it on 4 September 2016. It is very little more than a bare list. I think it is appallingly written. Francis Schonken created the redirect Sonatas for Violin and Harpsichord (Bach). Please could Francis Schonken briefly explain why he adopted that solution there and has suggested the opposite here? I cannot see any rationale at all. Mathsci ( talk) 11:10, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Currently the article contains 19 external links to James Kibbie's website, which seems some kind of overkill to me. However much I appreciate the organist and his downloadable recordings (see e.g. Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565#Kibbie), we're not his PR office.
I propose this entry in the External links section:
(which is still seven links to the organist's website, and has the advantage of pointing out that also higher quality Advanced Audio Coding formatted recordings are available instead of limiting this to MP3 links) – and remove all other links to Kibbies website, although I wouldn't oppose mentioning Kibbies recordings in the Discography section (with a ref linking to his site). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 07:47, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
There is quite a lot of material here, which I will briefly summarise for my own benefit. In Germany the narrative starts with Bach's sons Wilhelm Friedemann and Carl Philipp Emanuel (the Berlin Bach). Both composed organ sonatas themselves, some of those by CPEB were intended for Princess Amalia who played the organ. She had an organ installed in her palace in Berlin; but could not play the pedals or difficult passages. CPEB's sonatas have been published with a preface by David Yearley and Annette Richards. Princess Amalia's library contained a version of BWV 525–530 for two keyboards which was copied and taken to Vienna by the ambassador van Swieten (Engaging Bach, Matthew Dirst). The England the trio sonatas were published separately in 1809 and 1810 by Samuel Wesley using the copy Karl Friedrich Horn had obtained. Kollmann had previously published BWV 525 in his academic treatise on composition, which would not have been seen by a broad public. Horn and Wesley published the sonatas prior to publishing their edition of the WTC, which was does in four stages by subscription. Their aim was to convert the Handelian English public into Bachists, the essence of the English Bach awakening; as well as making sure that their publishing projects were properly financed and did not make a loss. The publication of the trio sonatas marked the beginning of the Bach awakening. The sonatas were performed as duets by Wesley with Vincent Novello and Benjamin Jacob. The performances took place at Wesley's long benefit concerts in the Hanover Square Rooms as well as the Surrey Chapel, Southwark. Organs with pedals were rare in England at that time, which is why the sonatas were played as duets on the manual keyboards (possibly three of them). Pedalboards started to appear in the 1820s, but Wesley and other organists concentrated on the sacred works: as Stinson comments, the organ sonatas on the whole were much harder. Stinson also describes how Widor championed the sonatas in France. The reconstruction of the original trio sonatas happened in the late 20th century when Bach's music was increasingly played and recorded on original instruments (e.g. the 2016 concerts of the Concerto Vocale in Ghent and elsewhere). I am not quite sure to what extent the secularity and difficulty of the sonatas affected their performance in the nineteenth century in England. At present I am still gathering sources. There is also material on Forkel and Wilhelm Friedemann Bach. Much of the narrative is parallel to that for Clavier-Übung III, but there are significant differences. Mathsci ( talk) 03:29, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
There is also the Belgian organist Lemmens, student of Adolf Hesse in Germany, who could play the trio sonatas from memory. He insisted that his students—they included Widor and Guillemont—also learn the trio sonatas by heart *on a weekly basis) and be able to transpose them if requested. His contemporary Franck's organ classes/exams in Paris are discussed by Stinson. There are also the performances by Alkan, Franck's pupil, of movements from the trio sonatas on his pedal piano in his Petits Concerts at the Salle Erard, Widor prepared an edition of the trio sonatas with Schweitzer. Yearsely's prize-winning 2012 book "Bach's Feet" contains a lot of material on the organ pedal, some of which is related to the trio sonatas. Stinson also has material in his Royal Instrument book. Mathsci ( talk) 17:28, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
To editor Mathsci: Okay, I give up. I won't battle with you. Ruin the article if you must. What a cryin' shame.  Paine  u/ c 14:09, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
See prior discussion at Talk:List of organ compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach#Sonatas: content of list page, and spin-off article. Some of that content still awaits to be integrated here. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:52, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
I have restored the material there to a bare list. What FS wrote there was original research, an improper use of sources, quite indecipherable and of no use to any reader. It was not a list but just FS's own attempt to write some form of forked article. FS should ask at wikiproject music if anybody else thinks such a personal, unreadable and improperly sourced essay is appropriate anywhere on wikipedia. It is useless for the reader. I know the source material and FS missed several major sources.
He also seems to have completely missed the basic point—the explanation of the "why", "what", "when" and "how" of the sonatas—that various sources make in long paragraphs of text which cannot possibly be encoded in a list.
Unlike FS, I have acquired and read the lengthy 1999 Bach-Handbuch article by Werner Breig which gives a detailed account of the evolution of the sonatas. It's a rather complicated thing to explain, but done very successfully in Breig by telling the fairly lengthy narrative in a carefully chosen order. The key is to create a set of paragraphs of content in a certain order which permits various aspects of the evolution of the sonatas to be explained: the history of Bach and his family; the purpose of the collection and its intended scope and universality; the history of the French trio sonata; Bach's (lost) instrumental works; when he might have composed them; Scheibe's notion of the Sonaten auf Concertenart; the strict form of the organ sonatas as trio sonatas; their division into two sets of three, etc. It takes a lot of thought as to how that can be done. Slow calm thought. FS did not find a solution. It seems FS did not even understand what the problem was.
FS's binary true/false presentation, patched together from outdated sources and lists, missed all of this subtlety. His indecipherable content was remote from the musical sublimeness and perfection of the sonatas. The aim of an article is to help the reader understand the music on various levels, particularly on a purely musical level so they can have a better appreciation and understanding of this music. Bach spent some time perfecting these sonatas. Why present them as a mess? Many of Bach's organ works have a tangled history before they reached a final form but that is not pursued in the list.
But the real question I would like to ask is why FS created the title "Trio Sonatas" there (modified from my title Organ sonatas) and then made such a song and dance about a completely different title here. How can FS have sources there which FS claims are reliable and led him to the title "Trio Sonatas" there and yet led him to a completely different title here. And here FS claimed the sources he had used there pointed to a capital letter. I understand this music well, I have seen the sources (apart from one 1988 source which is hard to locate), I can play the sonatas. None of this makes any sense to me. It seems very disruptive. Perhaps FS can explain himself. This is not the first time has done this kind of thing.
The bottom line is that what he created, which was not explained in any way at all, was of no help to any reader. Quite the contrary. Mathsci ( talk) 22:43, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
I am now starting to add more content. I will hop around various sections in a somewhat haphazard way. Just as an explanation to other users, I have been in a hypertensive emergency state for some time now which I am trying to control. (I was in A&E and then CCU a month ago.) My BP has just shot up to 194/107 so I have to take to take a break from editing. If Francis Schonken has plans to create extra stress for me, could he please put them on hold? Thanks, Mathsci ( talk) 17:06, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Content on "Sara Levy's Bach cult in Berlin", like articles of Wolff and Wollny and the book of Wollny, was added to provided context for Bach reception. Question not asked in good faith. Mathsci ( talk) 08:03, 29 November 2016 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Bold textThe section on reception and legacy has a paragraph about the Itzig family, and their relations to W. F. and C. P. E. Bach, etc.: how does this content relate to the topic of this article, i.e. J. S. Bach's six organ sonatas? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:17, 29 November 2016 (UTC) |
Christoph Wolff, in his recent book on Mozart and previous articles about Sara's sister Fanny von Arnstein and the Bach sons, refers to hand copies in the Itzig household of the two-harpsichord arrangement of the organ sonatas, probably made by one of the elder sons of Bach. Wolff describes the Itzig milieu in Berlin at great length. In particular their relations with the Bach family and circle. Wolff is cited in the references of this wikipedia article; the material is tied in with the content on Mozart and his string trios. Christoph Wolff is a recognised Bach scholar writing about Bach reception. That seems rather clear. I borrowed his recent book from the library to write the content. I therefore don't understand any of your comments. They seem to be just further examples of disruptive trolling. Is there something I'm missing? Mathsci ( talk) 08:32, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
It is already in the article. The word "explicited" does not exist in the English language. You have made a series of unfounded objections concerning the article, which stem from your misreading of both the article and its references. Now you are wasting my time. Mathsci ( talk) 10:45, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Classical music | ||||
|
This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
As far as I can tell, lilypond files only exist for BWV 528 and BWV 529 (they are on mutopia). Audio files have been created using non-free software on the Walter Icking archive (linked on IMSLP), but do not have usable source files and the midi files have the wrong Creative Commons license for wikipedia ("non-commercial"). They also do not sound like an organ rendition in any way at all. Starting with the existing lilypond files, I will add ornamentation and phrasing to create ogg files with baroque organ soundfonts. Usually registrations depends on the individual organ, but in the world of synthesised music, Jeux d'orgues has a very diverse collection of baroque soundfonts. I can therefore follow what my preferred organists do for these works. Most of all I like Isoir, but there are all the others like M-C Alain, Walcha, Koopman, Johannson and Foccroule. There are also all the English organists, especially the late John Scott. But the sound will be that of a baroque organ (like the reconstructed Bach organs of Daniel Kern, which I'm used to), not an English organ. This might take some time. Mathsci ( talk) 10:39, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
I am evidently busy editing ths article. That is evident with the empty sections waiting to be filled. Until I have created that [reliminary content, could other editors stay away? It will take roughly two weeks to create the article. If you see an empty section, that is an indication that the preliminary editing is not complete. Thanks, Mathsci ( talk) 06:30, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was:
Moved. Consensus is abundant for renaming this page; however, controversy lies in whether or not "sonatas" is a proper noun in this case. I see no consensus for one way or the other, so we have to go with the cited
naming convention guideline and reliable sources. The nom's assertion in the last post: ...scholarly sources are in unison afaics: they all capitalise "Sonatas" when talking about this set of compositions...
, is correct. The random sources I checked all treated "Sonatas" as a proper noun. (
non-admin closure) Â
Paine Â
u/
c 12:54, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Organ sonatas, BWV 525–530 → Organ Sonatas (Bach) – Same structure of the article title as Cello Suites (Bach). See also preliminary discussion at Talk:List of organ compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach#Sonatas: content of list page, and spin-off article, and guidance at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music), in particular WP:NCM#Capitalization of generic names, "Fixed set" principle. Francis Schonken ( talk) 07:17, 8 September 2016 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru ( talk) 13:18, 15 September 2016 (UTC)--Relisting. — JFG talk 13:23, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.The main article on the Bach violin sonatas is entitled Six Sonatas for Violin and Harpsichord, BWV 1014–1019. Francis Schonken has been editing that article on and off. He edited it on 4 September 2016. It is very little more than a bare list. I think it is appallingly written. Francis Schonken created the redirect Sonatas for Violin and Harpsichord (Bach). Please could Francis Schonken briefly explain why he adopted that solution there and has suggested the opposite here? I cannot see any rationale at all. Mathsci ( talk) 11:10, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Currently the article contains 19 external links to James Kibbie's website, which seems some kind of overkill to me. However much I appreciate the organist and his downloadable recordings (see e.g. Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565#Kibbie), we're not his PR office.
I propose this entry in the External links section:
(which is still seven links to the organist's website, and has the advantage of pointing out that also higher quality Advanced Audio Coding formatted recordings are available instead of limiting this to MP3 links) – and remove all other links to Kibbies website, although I wouldn't oppose mentioning Kibbies recordings in the Discography section (with a ref linking to his site). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 07:47, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
There is quite a lot of material here, which I will briefly summarise for my own benefit. In Germany the narrative starts with Bach's sons Wilhelm Friedemann and Carl Philipp Emanuel (the Berlin Bach). Both composed organ sonatas themselves, some of those by CPEB were intended for Princess Amalia who played the organ. She had an organ installed in her palace in Berlin; but could not play the pedals or difficult passages. CPEB's sonatas have been published with a preface by David Yearley and Annette Richards. Princess Amalia's library contained a version of BWV 525–530 for two keyboards which was copied and taken to Vienna by the ambassador van Swieten (Engaging Bach, Matthew Dirst). The England the trio sonatas were published separately in 1809 and 1810 by Samuel Wesley using the copy Karl Friedrich Horn had obtained. Kollmann had previously published BWV 525 in his academic treatise on composition, which would not have been seen by a broad public. Horn and Wesley published the sonatas prior to publishing their edition of the WTC, which was does in four stages by subscription. Their aim was to convert the Handelian English public into Bachists, the essence of the English Bach awakening; as well as making sure that their publishing projects were properly financed and did not make a loss. The publication of the trio sonatas marked the beginning of the Bach awakening. The sonatas were performed as duets by Wesley with Vincent Novello and Benjamin Jacob. The performances took place at Wesley's long benefit concerts in the Hanover Square Rooms as well as the Surrey Chapel, Southwark. Organs with pedals were rare in England at that time, which is why the sonatas were played as duets on the manual keyboards (possibly three of them). Pedalboards started to appear in the 1820s, but Wesley and other organists concentrated on the sacred works: as Stinson comments, the organ sonatas on the whole were much harder. Stinson also describes how Widor championed the sonatas in France. The reconstruction of the original trio sonatas happened in the late 20th century when Bach's music was increasingly played and recorded on original instruments (e.g. the 2016 concerts of the Concerto Vocale in Ghent and elsewhere). I am not quite sure to what extent the secularity and difficulty of the sonatas affected their performance in the nineteenth century in England. At present I am still gathering sources. There is also material on Forkel and Wilhelm Friedemann Bach. Much of the narrative is parallel to that for Clavier-Übung III, but there are significant differences. Mathsci ( talk) 03:29, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
There is also the Belgian organist Lemmens, student of Adolf Hesse in Germany, who could play the trio sonatas from memory. He insisted that his students—they included Widor and Guillemont—also learn the trio sonatas by heart *on a weekly basis) and be able to transpose them if requested. His contemporary Franck's organ classes/exams in Paris are discussed by Stinson. There are also the performances by Alkan, Franck's pupil, of movements from the trio sonatas on his pedal piano in his Petits Concerts at the Salle Erard, Widor prepared an edition of the trio sonatas with Schweitzer. Yearsely's prize-winning 2012 book "Bach's Feet" contains a lot of material on the organ pedal, some of which is related to the trio sonatas. Stinson also has material in his Royal Instrument book. Mathsci ( talk) 17:28, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
To editor Mathsci: Okay, I give up. I won't battle with you. Ruin the article if you must. What a cryin' shame.  Paine  u/ c 14:09, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
See prior discussion at Talk:List of organ compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach#Sonatas: content of list page, and spin-off article. Some of that content still awaits to be integrated here. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:52, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
I have restored the material there to a bare list. What FS wrote there was original research, an improper use of sources, quite indecipherable and of no use to any reader. It was not a list but just FS's own attempt to write some form of forked article. FS should ask at wikiproject music if anybody else thinks such a personal, unreadable and improperly sourced essay is appropriate anywhere on wikipedia. It is useless for the reader. I know the source material and FS missed several major sources.
He also seems to have completely missed the basic point—the explanation of the "why", "what", "when" and "how" of the sonatas—that various sources make in long paragraphs of text which cannot possibly be encoded in a list.
Unlike FS, I have acquired and read the lengthy 1999 Bach-Handbuch article by Werner Breig which gives a detailed account of the evolution of the sonatas. It's a rather complicated thing to explain, but done very successfully in Breig by telling the fairly lengthy narrative in a carefully chosen order. The key is to create a set of paragraphs of content in a certain order which permits various aspects of the evolution of the sonatas to be explained: the history of Bach and his family; the purpose of the collection and its intended scope and universality; the history of the French trio sonata; Bach's (lost) instrumental works; when he might have composed them; Scheibe's notion of the Sonaten auf Concertenart; the strict form of the organ sonatas as trio sonatas; their division into two sets of three, etc. It takes a lot of thought as to how that can be done. Slow calm thought. FS did not find a solution. It seems FS did not even understand what the problem was.
FS's binary true/false presentation, patched together from outdated sources and lists, missed all of this subtlety. His indecipherable content was remote from the musical sublimeness and perfection of the sonatas. The aim of an article is to help the reader understand the music on various levels, particularly on a purely musical level so they can have a better appreciation and understanding of this music. Bach spent some time perfecting these sonatas. Why present them as a mess? Many of Bach's organ works have a tangled history before they reached a final form but that is not pursued in the list.
But the real question I would like to ask is why FS created the title "Trio Sonatas" there (modified from my title Organ sonatas) and then made such a song and dance about a completely different title here. How can FS have sources there which FS claims are reliable and led him to the title "Trio Sonatas" there and yet led him to a completely different title here. And here FS claimed the sources he had used there pointed to a capital letter. I understand this music well, I have seen the sources (apart from one 1988 source which is hard to locate), I can play the sonatas. None of this makes any sense to me. It seems very disruptive. Perhaps FS can explain himself. This is not the first time has done this kind of thing.
The bottom line is that what he created, which was not explained in any way at all, was of no help to any reader. Quite the contrary. Mathsci ( talk) 22:43, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
I am now starting to add more content. I will hop around various sections in a somewhat haphazard way. Just as an explanation to other users, I have been in a hypertensive emergency state for some time now which I am trying to control. (I was in A&E and then CCU a month ago.) My BP has just shot up to 194/107 so I have to take to take a break from editing. If Francis Schonken has plans to create extra stress for me, could he please put them on hold? Thanks, Mathsci ( talk) 17:06, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Content on "Sara Levy's Bach cult in Berlin", like articles of Wolff and Wollny and the book of Wollny, was added to provided context for Bach reception. Question not asked in good faith. Mathsci ( talk) 08:03, 29 November 2016 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Bold textThe section on reception and legacy has a paragraph about the Itzig family, and their relations to W. F. and C. P. E. Bach, etc.: how does this content relate to the topic of this article, i.e. J. S. Bach's six organ sonatas? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:17, 29 November 2016 (UTC) |
Christoph Wolff, in his recent book on Mozart and previous articles about Sara's sister Fanny von Arnstein and the Bach sons, refers to hand copies in the Itzig household of the two-harpsichord arrangement of the organ sonatas, probably made by one of the elder sons of Bach. Wolff describes the Itzig milieu in Berlin at great length. In particular their relations with the Bach family and circle. Wolff is cited in the references of this wikipedia article; the material is tied in with the content on Mozart and his string trios. Christoph Wolff is a recognised Bach scholar writing about Bach reception. That seems rather clear. I borrowed his recent book from the library to write the content. I therefore don't understand any of your comments. They seem to be just further examples of disruptive trolling. Is there something I'm missing? Mathsci ( talk) 08:32, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
It is already in the article. The word "explicited" does not exist in the English language. You have made a series of unfounded objections concerning the article, which stem from your misreading of both the article and its references. Now you are wasting my time. Mathsci ( talk) 10:45, 30 November 2016 (UTC)