This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Soviet UnionWikipedia:WikiProject Soviet UnionTemplate:WikiProject Soviet UnionSoviet Union articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a
WikiProject dedicated to coverage of
Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
project page, or contribute to the
project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles
This article is within the scope of
WikiProject Family and relationships, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.Family and relationshipsWikipedia:WikiProject Family and relationshipsTemplate:WikiProject Family and relationshipsFamily and relationships articles
It was signed by Nikolai Yezhov acting both as chief of NKVD and General Commissar of State Security (KGB).
General Commissar of State Security was not - KGB, it was top rank in NKVD's - GUGB - Main Directorate of State Security !!!!!!!!!!!!!
In many articel's Cheka/GPU/OGPU/NKVD/GUGB/NKGB/MGB/MVD it become (call as) - KGB.
For all the excitement, this law only lasted slightly over 1 year. I wish all goffy laws were corrected this quickly.
after the verdict
The order had elements of humanism: wives with breast-fed children, ill or with ill children were not arrested. They were moved to labor camps later: breast-feeders after the verdict, those with illness after the recovery.
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Family members of traitors of the Motherland → NKVD Order No. 00486 – Current title is a malicious Soviet NKVD propaganda term which does not reflect the true nature of what the operation was all about. Criminal Code of the RSFSR from 1934 (!) is not neutral per our own
WP:NEUTRALITY policy guideline. The term "traitors of the Motherland" was invented in 1934 for the purpose of mass persecution of targeted groups of Soviet citizens. We do not define crimes of the Stalinist period using nomenclature provided by the perpetrators themselves. We use reliable third-party sources which offer terms that are commonly used today. Please consult out policy guidelines about this particular
WP:NPOV breach (quote):
"Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words". Poeticbenttalk 16:03, 21 May 2016 (UTC) -- Relisting.Anarchyte(
work |
talk)04:11, 29 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Support restoring the original title. I agree no reason here to promote Stalinist phraseology into article titles, unless it is an established term, such as "
kulak". However I disagree about leaving no redirects. The term is widely used in memoirs and historical literature about the period (at least in Russian), however in is often given in "scary quotes", to imply "not really". - üser:Altenmann
>t16:17, 21 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Accordingly, the article must be rewritten, since it was expanded with a sloppy original research. It particular "family members of..." was not a "clause" in Article 58 of 1934: they were simply mentioned in Clause 58.1. - üser:Altenmann
>t16:28, 21 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Oppose moving to
NKVD Order No. 00486. As the lead of the article says, these clauses originated in 1922 before the NKVD was even created. That they were somewhat revised and reissued by the NKVD 15 years later, doesn't really make the NKVD order the whole story. Hence using NKVD as the title of the article seems to make little sense. Also the article is only speaking to a small part of the NKVD directive, rather than the whole order, so the article would need to be expanded/rewritten to fit that title. That said, the current title is also rather awkward. I think ideally the current content would be merged/expanded into a larger context, and presented as something like
Legal guilt by association in early Soviet Russia, but obviously that doesn't exist right now. If someone can come up with a better title, I'd be willing to entertain that, but I don't think the NKVD suggestion works.
Dragons flight (
talk)
07:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Executed men were not "traitors of the Motherland". This politically-charged clause used by the NKVD was a lie (which is historically proven). – When and how this phrase was 'invented' is of little relevance. We don't use lies as WP article
WP:TITLES. The women and children were dealt with using
NKVD Order No. 00486 which introduced a new category of inmates, and established the terms of "at least 5–8 years" punishment by association at the Gulag. – What you're proposing (above) is a good rationale for a brand new article called "Legal guilt by association in Soviet Russia".
Great Purge did not take place in "early" Soviet Russia. It took place from 1936 to 1938. Meanwhile, "Legal guilt by association" affected the entire Soviet society for many years to come. You're free to start such article from scratch. Poeticbenttalk13:24, 27 May 2016 (UTC)reply
For what it is worth, in my head, I was thinking roughly up to WW2 as the "early" Soviet Era, and hence I would have included the Purge. As for the rest, I still don't agree. Assuming "traitors of the Motherland" is an accurate translation of the term used at the time, I don't see a major problem using that terminology in discussion of the laws and purges. This is similar to discussing the
witch trials. I don't think anyone really believes that the various women condemned as witches were actually practicing evil magic, but it would be silly to ignore the terms used by prosecuting authorities. That said, I don't think the current title is a particularly good one, but the NKVD title still seems worse to me. If you want to suggest another option, or find ways to merge this into a larger context, then please do.
Dragons flight (
talk)
15:06, 27 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Support, on second thought, as the current article name is problematic for POV reasons, as I mentioned above. "NKVD Order No. 00486" is neutral and the topic is probably obscure enough that it does not matter that much.
K.e.coffman (
talk)
09:36, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Oppose. No one knows what " NKVD Order No. 00486" is. Current name on ruwiki is "Член семьи изменника Родины", which is proper name in Russian. Current title is literally a translation of that title. However, an alternative naming/translation as
Repressions against families of enemies of the people could also be fine. The proposed renaming will make finding this page significantly more difficult for anyone who is interested in this subject. I barely could find it when it had such name long time ago.
My very best wishes (
talk)
12:38, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Comment' Let me clarify the logic I applied when I created the article. The subject of my original article was the NKVD order, and not the category of people (in the classification of the Soviet law). These are two separate subjects. The second subject deserves its own article. There is much to write about the fate of "ChSIR". Unfortunately I didnt have much energy to cover the topic. The current article contains some hints. Therefore it may be reasonable to keep a single article for now. In such a case I would agree that a more general, descriptive title will be reasonable, such as
Members of families of politically repressed in the Soviet Union. - üser:Altenmann
>t15:53, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Please take a second look at options already on the table. Adding yet another alternative might not be descriptive enough. The article is about not just "Members of families" but "Repressed members of families" ... of "politically repressed members of families" not necessarily "politically" in every respect. There's only so much we can say in
WP:TITLE per Wikipedia policy guidelines. Thanks, Poeticbenttalk16:26, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Comment: the discussion is possibly bogging down in too many alternatives, for a start-class article. I'd suggest going with the neutral "NKVD Order No. 00486" and then revisiting when the article is fleshed out. I think the main objective should be to get rid of this
"terminally injured" term, presented in Wikipedia voice.
K.e.coffman (
talk)
19:46, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
No, this article is actually on a different subject because it tells not about "NKVD Order No. 00486", but about common practice established by several NKVD orders dated by years 1922, 1934, 1936, 1938 and 1942 (I just made an edit to clarify it). BTW, this term, as appears in the corresponding page of ruwiki ("Член семьи изменника Родины", or in NKVD abbreviation, "ЧC"/"ЧСИР") is perfectly neutral and "official".
My very best wishes (
talk)
19:58, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
History section
It seems that the initial version or article 58 did not include anything about automatic/obligatory arrest of members of the family. This appears only in 1934. Should be fixed.
My very best wishes (
talk)
18:00, 1 June 2016 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Soviet UnionWikipedia:WikiProject Soviet UnionTemplate:WikiProject Soviet UnionSoviet Union articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a
WikiProject dedicated to coverage of
Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
project page, or contribute to the
project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles
This article is within the scope of
WikiProject Family and relationships, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.Family and relationshipsWikipedia:WikiProject Family and relationshipsTemplate:WikiProject Family and relationshipsFamily and relationships articles
It was signed by Nikolai Yezhov acting both as chief of NKVD and General Commissar of State Security (KGB).
General Commissar of State Security was not - KGB, it was top rank in NKVD's - GUGB - Main Directorate of State Security !!!!!!!!!!!!!
In many articel's Cheka/GPU/OGPU/NKVD/GUGB/NKGB/MGB/MVD it become (call as) - KGB.
For all the excitement, this law only lasted slightly over 1 year. I wish all goffy laws were corrected this quickly.
after the verdict
The order had elements of humanism: wives with breast-fed children, ill or with ill children were not arrested. They were moved to labor camps later: breast-feeders after the verdict, those with illness after the recovery.
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Family members of traitors of the Motherland → NKVD Order No. 00486 – Current title is a malicious Soviet NKVD propaganda term which does not reflect the true nature of what the operation was all about. Criminal Code of the RSFSR from 1934 (!) is not neutral per our own
WP:NEUTRALITY policy guideline. The term "traitors of the Motherland" was invented in 1934 for the purpose of mass persecution of targeted groups of Soviet citizens. We do not define crimes of the Stalinist period using nomenclature provided by the perpetrators themselves. We use reliable third-party sources which offer terms that are commonly used today. Please consult out policy guidelines about this particular
WP:NPOV breach (quote):
"Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words". Poeticbenttalk 16:03, 21 May 2016 (UTC) -- Relisting.Anarchyte(
work |
talk)04:11, 29 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Support restoring the original title. I agree no reason here to promote Stalinist phraseology into article titles, unless it is an established term, such as "
kulak". However I disagree about leaving no redirects. The term is widely used in memoirs and historical literature about the period (at least in Russian), however in is often given in "scary quotes", to imply "not really". - üser:Altenmann
>t16:17, 21 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Accordingly, the article must be rewritten, since it was expanded with a sloppy original research. It particular "family members of..." was not a "clause" in Article 58 of 1934: they were simply mentioned in Clause 58.1. - üser:Altenmann
>t16:28, 21 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Oppose moving to
NKVD Order No. 00486. As the lead of the article says, these clauses originated in 1922 before the NKVD was even created. That they were somewhat revised and reissued by the NKVD 15 years later, doesn't really make the NKVD order the whole story. Hence using NKVD as the title of the article seems to make little sense. Also the article is only speaking to a small part of the NKVD directive, rather than the whole order, so the article would need to be expanded/rewritten to fit that title. That said, the current title is also rather awkward. I think ideally the current content would be merged/expanded into a larger context, and presented as something like
Legal guilt by association in early Soviet Russia, but obviously that doesn't exist right now. If someone can come up with a better title, I'd be willing to entertain that, but I don't think the NKVD suggestion works.
Dragons flight (
talk)
07:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Executed men were not "traitors of the Motherland". This politically-charged clause used by the NKVD was a lie (which is historically proven). – When and how this phrase was 'invented' is of little relevance. We don't use lies as WP article
WP:TITLES. The women and children were dealt with using
NKVD Order No. 00486 which introduced a new category of inmates, and established the terms of "at least 5–8 years" punishment by association at the Gulag. – What you're proposing (above) is a good rationale for a brand new article called "Legal guilt by association in Soviet Russia".
Great Purge did not take place in "early" Soviet Russia. It took place from 1936 to 1938. Meanwhile, "Legal guilt by association" affected the entire Soviet society for many years to come. You're free to start such article from scratch. Poeticbenttalk13:24, 27 May 2016 (UTC)reply
For what it is worth, in my head, I was thinking roughly up to WW2 as the "early" Soviet Era, and hence I would have included the Purge. As for the rest, I still don't agree. Assuming "traitors of the Motherland" is an accurate translation of the term used at the time, I don't see a major problem using that terminology in discussion of the laws and purges. This is similar to discussing the
witch trials. I don't think anyone really believes that the various women condemned as witches were actually practicing evil magic, but it would be silly to ignore the terms used by prosecuting authorities. That said, I don't think the current title is a particularly good one, but the NKVD title still seems worse to me. If you want to suggest another option, or find ways to merge this into a larger context, then please do.
Dragons flight (
talk)
15:06, 27 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Support, on second thought, as the current article name is problematic for POV reasons, as I mentioned above. "NKVD Order No. 00486" is neutral and the topic is probably obscure enough that it does not matter that much.
K.e.coffman (
talk)
09:36, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Oppose. No one knows what " NKVD Order No. 00486" is. Current name on ruwiki is "Член семьи изменника Родины", which is proper name in Russian. Current title is literally a translation of that title. However, an alternative naming/translation as
Repressions against families of enemies of the people could also be fine. The proposed renaming will make finding this page significantly more difficult for anyone who is interested in this subject. I barely could find it when it had such name long time ago.
My very best wishes (
talk)
12:38, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Comment' Let me clarify the logic I applied when I created the article. The subject of my original article was the NKVD order, and not the category of people (in the classification of the Soviet law). These are two separate subjects. The second subject deserves its own article. There is much to write about the fate of "ChSIR". Unfortunately I didnt have much energy to cover the topic. The current article contains some hints. Therefore it may be reasonable to keep a single article for now. In such a case I would agree that a more general, descriptive title will be reasonable, such as
Members of families of politically repressed in the Soviet Union. - üser:Altenmann
>t15:53, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Please take a second look at options already on the table. Adding yet another alternative might not be descriptive enough. The article is about not just "Members of families" but "Repressed members of families" ... of "politically repressed members of families" not necessarily "politically" in every respect. There's only so much we can say in
WP:TITLE per Wikipedia policy guidelines. Thanks, Poeticbenttalk16:26, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Comment: the discussion is possibly bogging down in too many alternatives, for a start-class article. I'd suggest going with the neutral "NKVD Order No. 00486" and then revisiting when the article is fleshed out. I think the main objective should be to get rid of this
"terminally injured" term, presented in Wikipedia voice.
K.e.coffman (
talk)
19:46, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
No, this article is actually on a different subject because it tells not about "NKVD Order No. 00486", but about common practice established by several NKVD orders dated by years 1922, 1934, 1936, 1938 and 1942 (I just made an edit to clarify it). BTW, this term, as appears in the corresponding page of ruwiki ("Член семьи изменника Родины", or in NKVD abbreviation, "ЧC"/"ЧСИР") is perfectly neutral and "official".
My very best wishes (
talk)
19:58, 31 May 2016 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
History section
It seems that the initial version or article 58 did not include anything about automatic/obligatory arrest of members of the family. This appears only in 1934. Should be fixed.
My very best wishes (
talk)
18:00, 1 June 2016 (UTC)reply