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This is completely not relevant at all, but in India we used to play the same game with different lyrics:
And on the last "dead", you bring your hands down, like the chopper. The school girl reference is weird, but trust me, this is a real game. Gaurav 19:51, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Yep! Except I thought it was
"All girls! School girls are so many!"
I went to an all-girls school, maybe that's why? :) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
161.167.234.40 (
talk) 02:26, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Hey for the trivia section: wasn't that rhyme used in a recent popular fiction novel? i want to say a Dan Brown book but i am not sure. -- Kstrubb 05:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
It was used in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-four. I don't recall it being used in Angels & Demons or The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown. -- Mcmvanbree 22:57, 30 November (UTC)
Yes! That's the one! Thanks; I don't know how i got those books confused but yes, I did encounter it in 1984. In any case, that should be added to the trivia portion.-- Kstrubb 05:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to add a referece to
nineteen eighty-four where this rhyme plays a big part
I just read in Bamber Gascoigne's Encyclopedia of Britain that St Clement, Eastcheap is near the docks where the citrus fruit would be unloaded. Is Bamber right, and if so is this the origin? -- Bonalaw 14:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Gaurav's trivia is quite interesting, would it be possible to integrate it into the article? As children we always sang 'when I grow old for' the Bow line though I don't know if the article will benefit from the addition of endless variants as with the pop goes the weasel article. Empty Hat
It is not by any means universally accepted that St Clement's Eastcheap is the right church (see its own article). It is in fact the bell of St Clement Dane's which play the tune. Sasha 12:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Entering 'Oranges lemons' into a popular search engine I have encountered a great deal of information and background research on this old song, much of which is absent from the existing article. For obvious copyright reasons I cannot 'steal' it however someone more alert to the legalities of information on the internet might be able to examine and decide upon appropriate use of information such as at the BBC ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A696125) or here http://www.rhymes.org.uk/oranges_and_lemons.htm and especially here http://www.rhymes.org.uk/london-bells.htm. I believe that it is fair use to link to these articles in the context of a discussion. Clearly there is more to this song and its history than is currently conveyed in the article. Aethandor ( talk) 10:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
A different arrangement of the lyrics appears in "Tommy Thumb's Song Book for All Little Masters and Misses" (1788). An 1815 reprint of this book is available here: http://www.archive.org/details/tommythumbssongb00loveiala
Not sure whether these lyrics deserve a space in the article, or whether the book should be referenced? Neonpaul ( talk) 23:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is this really the most common version? I've always heard it sung as "five farthings". I would guess that the most common London version is probably five too; we're only a short train ride to central London from here. Five seems to fit the rhythm of the song better too. But maybe it's just inflation! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.125.217 ( talk) 08:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it should be five farthings. I'll change it.
86.135.122.239 (
talk) 18:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Under Origins and meanings, the last sentence of the first paragraph, even taken in context, makes no sense: "They may come from a tower in London with the names of all these bells." This probably was intended to mean that the bells mentioned are those audible from the Tower of London, significantly someone awaiting execution. Examining a map of the area, it overlooks other churches, but perhaps these were the most identifiable. I don't have time to make a good enough edit to the article right now.-- Rfsmit ( talk) 13:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
The tune is mentioned a few times in the article with no description of it. I intend to create an image of the sheet music.-- Rfsmit ( talk) 13:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
It is good to see that we have information on the churches referred to in the rhyme. However, this is confined to only the shorter, modern version. It probably wouldn't go amiss to research exactly which churches were being referred to in the other lines, as they're all most likely to still be there today. I live in London, so I can find them, like I've done with the others. St Giles, St Peter's, Whitechapel, Aldgate, St Catherine's, St Anne's, St John's etc... I will look into it if I have time, but, as that in hard to come by, if anyone else feels interested.... Orphan Wiki 21:06, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
¶ I have never heard any of the bells described. I wonder if their ringing resembles the words ascribed to them. Sussmanbern ( talk) 04:24, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Is there any reason why the second St Martin's is St. Martin's Lane and not St Martin-in-the-Fields, for which St. Martin's Lane is named, and where many of the money lenders attended services? I will do my best to research the other churches mentioned. There are several St. Anne's, but I haven't yet stumbled across St. Margret's. Sasouthcott ( talk) 21:38, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Do we know that the name of this band has anything to do with the nursery rhyme? Szarka ( talk) 15:39, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
The children go through single file: the two children of the arch decide quietly that one is 'gold/oranges' the other 'silver/lemons' - and when caught the child says one term or the other, and joins the relevant column: when all are assigned, there is a tug of war.
Probably, like jacks the children in each locality/school develops their particular version. Jackiespeel ( talk) 18:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I just stumbled upon this page St_Martin's_Church,_Ruislip and that meant I came here - any chance this might be the one refered to - in which case should it go in with the other 2 possibles? EdwardLane ( talk) 12:21, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Autochthony writes: I concur with SabreBD. Ruislip is near the end (three stops away) of the 'Met' and 'Picc' Underground lines - indeed, it is in Metroland - so was almost a day's journey (on foot) into the country in the - say - Seventeenth Century. I would hazard a guess that there are other St. Martin's churches nearer to the City. Autochthony wrote. 20171217 2319Z 86.176.247.203 ( talk) 23:18, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
I see that there is an article for a similar Korean game. Would other similar games be notable?
There is a very similar game in Denmark, with a totally different and very mysterious text
Bro, bro, brille bridge, bridge, spectacle (for the yes) klokken rigner elleve the bell rings eleven kejseren står på sit høje, hvide slot the emperor is standing on his high, white castle så hvidt som et kridt as white as a chalk så sort som et kul as white as a coal fare fare krigsmand danger danger warrior døden skal du lide death you shall suffer den der kommer allersidst who comes the very last skal i den sorte gryde goes into the black pot første gang så la'r vi ham gå the first time we let him go anden gang så ligeså the second time likewise men tredje gang så ta'r vi ham but the third time we take him og putter ham i gryden and put him into the pot
At "take" the people, usually adults, forming the bridge close their arms. The child caught is placed behind one side of the bridge. At the end of the game there is a tug of war between two sides.
What is this ? Mentioned in Rules... 'stand on a pressure plate.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:FC05:2B1C:6B63:28AB ( talk) 21:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Complete nonsense as far as I can tell from some quick research. The only online references to it are copied from this Wikipedia article. 124.149.143.82 ( talk) 03:27, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
'Problematically for these theories the last two lines,'
Please rewrite this sentence and remove the horrid word 'problematically'. It is a hideous American mis-usage, and it does not mean what you are trying to make it mean. 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:A4EF:5A33:F518:812 ( talk) 01:56, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
When I was a kid, we sang this, but it ended with: "And this is the end | says the bell of Big Ben." Anyone know this version? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.237.20.22 ( talk) 18:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I used a site for a citation but there is probably a better one that could be found and used. A. Rosenberg ( talk) 03:38, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
I’ve had over 120 edits that were NOT reverted, so I don’t see what you are getting at. I’ve reviewed the guidelines for In Popular Culture sections have have viewed similar sections on other pages. I believe that this is a valid addition to the page. Can you give an example of a scenario in which it WOULD be appropriate to add the section in question? A. Rosenberg ( talk) 15:31, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Came here from the 3O request. I like the inclusion. The nursery rhyme has a strong presence in the book, and I think this is a good example of when "In popular culture" is useful, explaining how this old nursery rhyme has lived on in a modern cultural context. You can always add more sources, if needed, such as this. Pyrrho the Skeptic ( talk) 19:50, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Application for a DRN has been made and appears at /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Oranges_and%20Lemons There's provision there for us all to provide our own summaries. Guidelines suggest that we check there regularly for developments and moderator comment and that we do not edit the article in question while the process is ongoing. Sweetpool50 ( talk) 00:31, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Sweetpool50:, given the 4th and 5th opinion, I propose we work together to write a satisfactory In Popular Culture section. [User:Asher Rosenberg|A. Rosenberg] ( talk) 14:58, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
I will start working on it tomorrow, as I am busy today for obvious reasons. A. Rosenberg ( talk) 14:06, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Oranges and Lemons article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is completely not relevant at all, but in India we used to play the same game with different lyrics:
And on the last "dead", you bring your hands down, like the chopper. The school girl reference is weird, but trust me, this is a real game. Gaurav 19:51, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Yep! Except I thought it was
"All girls! School girls are so many!"
I went to an all-girls school, maybe that's why? :) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
161.167.234.40 (
talk) 02:26, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Hey for the trivia section: wasn't that rhyme used in a recent popular fiction novel? i want to say a Dan Brown book but i am not sure. -- Kstrubb 05:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
It was used in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-four. I don't recall it being used in Angels & Demons or The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown. -- Mcmvanbree 22:57, 30 November (UTC)
Yes! That's the one! Thanks; I don't know how i got those books confused but yes, I did encounter it in 1984. In any case, that should be added to the trivia portion.-- Kstrubb 05:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to add a referece to
nineteen eighty-four where this rhyme plays a big part
I just read in Bamber Gascoigne's Encyclopedia of Britain that St Clement, Eastcheap is near the docks where the citrus fruit would be unloaded. Is Bamber right, and if so is this the origin? -- Bonalaw 14:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Gaurav's trivia is quite interesting, would it be possible to integrate it into the article? As children we always sang 'when I grow old for' the Bow line though I don't know if the article will benefit from the addition of endless variants as with the pop goes the weasel article. Empty Hat
It is not by any means universally accepted that St Clement's Eastcheap is the right church (see its own article). It is in fact the bell of St Clement Dane's which play the tune. Sasha 12:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Entering 'Oranges lemons' into a popular search engine I have encountered a great deal of information and background research on this old song, much of which is absent from the existing article. For obvious copyright reasons I cannot 'steal' it however someone more alert to the legalities of information on the internet might be able to examine and decide upon appropriate use of information such as at the BBC ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A696125) or here http://www.rhymes.org.uk/oranges_and_lemons.htm and especially here http://www.rhymes.org.uk/london-bells.htm. I believe that it is fair use to link to these articles in the context of a discussion. Clearly there is more to this song and its history than is currently conveyed in the article. Aethandor ( talk) 10:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
A different arrangement of the lyrics appears in "Tommy Thumb's Song Book for All Little Masters and Misses" (1788). An 1815 reprint of this book is available here: http://www.archive.org/details/tommythumbssongb00loveiala
Not sure whether these lyrics deserve a space in the article, or whether the book should be referenced? Neonpaul ( talk) 23:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is this really the most common version? I've always heard it sung as "five farthings". I would guess that the most common London version is probably five too; we're only a short train ride to central London from here. Five seems to fit the rhythm of the song better too. But maybe it's just inflation! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.125.217 ( talk) 08:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it should be five farthings. I'll change it.
86.135.122.239 (
talk) 18:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Under Origins and meanings, the last sentence of the first paragraph, even taken in context, makes no sense: "They may come from a tower in London with the names of all these bells." This probably was intended to mean that the bells mentioned are those audible from the Tower of London, significantly someone awaiting execution. Examining a map of the area, it overlooks other churches, but perhaps these were the most identifiable. I don't have time to make a good enough edit to the article right now.-- Rfsmit ( talk) 13:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
The tune is mentioned a few times in the article with no description of it. I intend to create an image of the sheet music.-- Rfsmit ( talk) 13:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
It is good to see that we have information on the churches referred to in the rhyme. However, this is confined to only the shorter, modern version. It probably wouldn't go amiss to research exactly which churches were being referred to in the other lines, as they're all most likely to still be there today. I live in London, so I can find them, like I've done with the others. St Giles, St Peter's, Whitechapel, Aldgate, St Catherine's, St Anne's, St John's etc... I will look into it if I have time, but, as that in hard to come by, if anyone else feels interested.... Orphan Wiki 21:06, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
¶ I have never heard any of the bells described. I wonder if their ringing resembles the words ascribed to them. Sussmanbern ( talk) 04:24, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Is there any reason why the second St Martin's is St. Martin's Lane and not St Martin-in-the-Fields, for which St. Martin's Lane is named, and where many of the money lenders attended services? I will do my best to research the other churches mentioned. There are several St. Anne's, but I haven't yet stumbled across St. Margret's. Sasouthcott ( talk) 21:38, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Do we know that the name of this band has anything to do with the nursery rhyme? Szarka ( talk) 15:39, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
The children go through single file: the two children of the arch decide quietly that one is 'gold/oranges' the other 'silver/lemons' - and when caught the child says one term or the other, and joins the relevant column: when all are assigned, there is a tug of war.
Probably, like jacks the children in each locality/school develops their particular version. Jackiespeel ( talk) 18:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I just stumbled upon this page St_Martin's_Church,_Ruislip and that meant I came here - any chance this might be the one refered to - in which case should it go in with the other 2 possibles? EdwardLane ( talk) 12:21, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Autochthony writes: I concur with SabreBD. Ruislip is near the end (three stops away) of the 'Met' and 'Picc' Underground lines - indeed, it is in Metroland - so was almost a day's journey (on foot) into the country in the - say - Seventeenth Century. I would hazard a guess that there are other St. Martin's churches nearer to the City. Autochthony wrote. 20171217 2319Z 86.176.247.203 ( talk) 23:18, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
I see that there is an article for a similar Korean game. Would other similar games be notable?
There is a very similar game in Denmark, with a totally different and very mysterious text
Bro, bro, brille bridge, bridge, spectacle (for the yes) klokken rigner elleve the bell rings eleven kejseren står på sit høje, hvide slot the emperor is standing on his high, white castle så hvidt som et kridt as white as a chalk så sort som et kul as white as a coal fare fare krigsmand danger danger warrior døden skal du lide death you shall suffer den der kommer allersidst who comes the very last skal i den sorte gryde goes into the black pot første gang så la'r vi ham gå the first time we let him go anden gang så ligeså the second time likewise men tredje gang så ta'r vi ham but the third time we take him og putter ham i gryden and put him into the pot
At "take" the people, usually adults, forming the bridge close their arms. The child caught is placed behind one side of the bridge. At the end of the game there is a tug of war between two sides.
What is this ? Mentioned in Rules... 'stand on a pressure plate.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:FC05:2B1C:6B63:28AB ( talk) 21:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Complete nonsense as far as I can tell from some quick research. The only online references to it are copied from this Wikipedia article. 124.149.143.82 ( talk) 03:27, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
'Problematically for these theories the last two lines,'
Please rewrite this sentence and remove the horrid word 'problematically'. It is a hideous American mis-usage, and it does not mean what you are trying to make it mean. 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:A4EF:5A33:F518:812 ( talk) 01:56, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
When I was a kid, we sang this, but it ended with: "And this is the end | says the bell of Big Ben." Anyone know this version? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.237.20.22 ( talk) 18:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I used a site for a citation but there is probably a better one that could be found and used. A. Rosenberg ( talk) 03:38, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
I’ve had over 120 edits that were NOT reverted, so I don’t see what you are getting at. I’ve reviewed the guidelines for In Popular Culture sections have have viewed similar sections on other pages. I believe that this is a valid addition to the page. Can you give an example of a scenario in which it WOULD be appropriate to add the section in question? A. Rosenberg ( talk) 15:31, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Came here from the 3O request. I like the inclusion. The nursery rhyme has a strong presence in the book, and I think this is a good example of when "In popular culture" is useful, explaining how this old nursery rhyme has lived on in a modern cultural context. You can always add more sources, if needed, such as this. Pyrrho the Skeptic ( talk) 19:50, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Application for a DRN has been made and appears at /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Oranges_and%20Lemons There's provision there for us all to provide our own summaries. Guidelines suggest that we check there regularly for developments and moderator comment and that we do not edit the article in question while the process is ongoing. Sweetpool50 ( talk) 00:31, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Sweetpool50:, given the 4th and 5th opinion, I propose we work together to write a satisfactory In Popular Culture section. [User:Asher Rosenberg|A. Rosenberg] ( talk) 14:58, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
I will start working on it tomorrow, as I am busy today for obvious reasons. A. Rosenberg ( talk) 14:06, 25 November 2021 (UTC)