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Algiers section really needs edited. It doesn't look right, it doesn't read right. There's too much uninterrupted text and the english isn't exactly perfect. -- Gantlord 23:04, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There are way too many galicisms. I am eliminating the most obvious ones — bad phrasing, excess of commas, lack of capitalisation etc — as well as letting the text flow by eliminating forced brakes or substituting paragraphs for them.
That this was translated from French explains a lot. There are some things very hard to understand. Do the three figures for troops refer to the three landings? Are the ship figures the total? Why is so little written about the Oran landings? Good target for some more research. DJ Clayworth 20:51, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Dear Colleagues, Gantlord and Clayworth,
Concerning the galicisms of the Algiers French coup of 1942 paragraph, I am plainly guilty, and should be grateful to the user kind enough to correct my style. I hesitated before to include my complements to that article, but I did it because I estimated in an Encyclopedia, the true was more important than the style. But of course, the style too is very important, and it is why I wrote in the beginning my “Philomax 2” user page: “As a Sorbonne professor, I have a correct competence in History, Politics, and French Public Law... but, unhappily, not in English language. So, I hope some other W. users will not hesitate to ameliorate the style of my texts”.
Philomax 2 Philomax 2 5 July 2005 10:49 (UTC)
I've been unable to substantiate what is written about the French coup of 8th November. Other sources simply say that there was an attempted otherthrow of the local government which was put down. In particular I am unable to find any reference that backs up the claim that an entire Army Corps (tens of thousands of soldiers) were neutralised by 400 resistance fighters. Here is the text I removed.
That putsch was one of the most beautiful feats of arms of French resistance, by its circumstances and especially by its effects. It indeed allowed the success of Torch operation, i.e. Allied landing in the whole North Africa, whose success, beside the allied victories of El-Alamein and Stalingrad constituted the turning of the war: Pursuant to secretly made agreements in Cherchell on 23 October 1942, between Algiers resistance and the combined command, 400 badly armed French civil resistants, the 2/3 of them being jewishes, neutralized, alone, the coastal artillery of Cherchell and the vichyist XIXème army corps of Algiers during about fifteen hours. To get that result their groups, under the command of José Aboulker (22 years), Henri d'Astier de La Vigerie, and colonel Jousse, had occupied, during the night from the 7 to 8 November, the majority of the strategic points (General Government, Prefecture, Staff headquarters, barracks, etc.) and arrested most of the vichyist military and civil rulers. One of their groups, composed with some eldest pupils of the Ben-Aknoun College, and directed by the young non commissioned officer (aspirant) Pauphilet, had succeeded in arresting General Juin, Chief commandant in North Africa, as well as the collaborationist admiral Darlan, suddenly present in Algiers that night.
Towards 1 hour after midnight the consul Murphy had gone to the villa des Oliviers to give a message of the president Roosevelt with the General Juin, Head commander of French Africa army. The message of Roosevelt required of the army of Africa to receive the United States forces as friends and to join them, so as to release France from German domination. But general Juin and later on admiral Darlan refused to receive peacefully American forces.
At the same time, in Sidi-Ferruch, Colonel Baril, one of the rare resistants among the professional officers, had succeeded in occupying the fort with one of its companies, and in neutralizing its artillery batteries, so that the landing allied forces were going to be able to take foot on Sidi-Ferruch beach without any loss. The other landing points were the Pointe Pescade, close by Algiers, and the Cape Matifou beaches, on the eastern side of the city.
Unfortunately, many soldiers of American general Ryder lost their lifes before arriving on shore, as the sea was agitated and the night very black: the pilots of the landing-crafts — which were going to prove reliable later on in Normandy — had not practically get any drive training, for lack of time. Many landing-crafts charged with heavily equipped soldiers knocked the hulls of the ships, or were badly moored on the landing beaches and then rejected by the sea, on those which followed them. Also a number of them were turned and run over by the sea with their occupants. As a result, the surviving soldiers landed in a more reduced number than expected, while the landing-crafts of material were thrown on other beaches than the soldiers charged to use them.
Under these conditions General Ryder, who during hours had not any vehicle, did not dare, despite the requests of the resistance messengers, to walk immediately on Algiers. And thereafter, when he got under way, he was limited, jointly with its forces landed in the east of the city, to encircle the town by the heights without penetrating there. Actually, disabled by its losses at sea, he did not manage to admit that a few hundreds of civil volunteers had really been able to seize a city defended by an army corps.
Around 3 hours A.M., detonations resounded in the port, where two American destroyers had succeeded in being introduced, and in landing on one of the piers a 300 rangers detachment directed by colonel Swenson. Their goal was to seize the port, to maintain it intact, so that it could immediately be used to land the allied reinforcements. The artillery of admiralty, by cannonading the allied vessels, awoke anybody in Algiers then. The seaboard gendarmes of Darlan, after having killed a dozen American soldiers, did not manage to overcome the well armed commandos. Their attack of the port was only later neutralized by vichyist forces, with the assistance of the armoured tanks of the 5ème Chasseurs.
Later in the morning, Juin and Darlan have been liberated by the mobile guards, and Darlan sent a cable to Vichy, to ask for a bombing by German Luftwaffe of the allied transport vessels in front of Algiers.
Further in the day, Vichy forces spent all the day to besiege the resistant groups one after the other, instead of attack the landing forces on the beaches. Consequently Ryder, after having encircled Algiers, began to penetrate in the town around 5 o’Clock PM, and allied mortars sent some projectiles on vichyist command in Fort-L’Empereur. Then Juin and Darlan, overestimating allied forces, decided to surrender, but only for Algiers.
Thus, it was thanks to French resistants, which prevented the vichyist Algiers garrison from being mobilized, that the allied forces could land without meeting resistance, encircle Algiers and obtain the surrendering from that key port the very day.
DJ Clayworth 02:46, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I have done substantial searches and reading, and I can find no serious historians who claim that the 'putsch' in Algiers had a major effect on the conduct of the operation. John Keegan mentions it as an unfortunate tragedy (i.e. that it was initiated too early, before the Allies had a chance to support it properly). I have also yet to find a reliable source that says that Juin or Darlan were captured by this coup. If they were, then presumably they were freed when the putsch was put down. If you have any sources to back up the claims that the coup had a noticeable effect on the battle, of that leaders were captured, then please cite them. Otherwise I'm afraid they have to go. DJ Clayworth 4 July 2005 15:16 (UTC)
Dear Colleague Clayworth,
I redacted the paragraph here included about the Algiers coup, and appreciate your interest about it. But:
1°) The missed coup to neutralize French vichyst oppostion happened in Morocco, and not in Algiers: There, indeed, in Rabat and Casablanca, the patriot general Bethouard, badly informed about the landing hour, made an attempt of putsch "too early, before the Allies had a chance to support it properly", and that was really an unfortunate tragedy.
But it was not the same in Algiers, and the silence of Mr John Keegan about that successful coup of French patriots (who risked their lifes in Algiers to spare strong casualities to Allied forces) seems me regrettable, even in a book about the whole World war II.
2°) I am surprised how you did not find a reliable source that says that Juin or Darlan were captured by this coup: Their capture, during 5 hours is told in every book, or report (in French or in English), of
the bibliography indicated at the end of the article. The ex aspirant Pauphilet who directed the group of youngsters having arrested those generals in Villa des Oliviers, is still alive in Paris, and is the chairman of "Association de la Libération du 8 novembre 1942".
3°) Concerning the Neutralization of the XIXth Corps in Algiers by 400 resistants, it is first necessary to remind that Army corps did not included "tens of thousands of soldiers", but was, because of armistice, reducted to an effective of 12000 men located in the whole Algiers région. 7000 of them stood in he towns of Algiers, Blida and Kolea. Among the 5000 located in Algiers a number were allocated to headquarters, so as the only real fighting forces were 2 regiments, 1 légion of “Gardes mobiles”, and some navy forces.
4°) The neutralization consisted of taking over from 1 o'clock P.M. every strategic points, and afterwards in delaying the vichyist repression, concentrated all the day long on reconquest of the resistants bases, instead of attacking landing forces, who, so, could peacefully encircle Algiers.
By exemple the Central post-office was besieged, at 7h P.M. by armoured cars of the French 5th Chasseurs Regiment: (who was planned to defend the Maison Blanche Airport). There the resistant group leader lieutenant Dreyfus refused to surrender and was killed. But, during that time, a company of the 39th American Infantry regiment could occupy that Maison Blanche airport, the main of North Africa, without any Vichyist opposition.
Even repression was not completly successful, as Resistants kept their main base, the Commissariat Central, until the vichyist capitulation, at 6h30 P.M. .
5°) Concerning the Algiers coup history, everything is correct in the paragraph, and it would have been easy to substantiate your information in having a look to the books mentioned in bibliography, among which the reports of French putsch groups leaders who neutralized Algiers on November 8 1942. They have been published in London, during the war, in August 1943. You could also have consulted the specialised books about that period, indicated in the same bibliography, some of which are recent.
6°) As Operation Torch was acted in French territories, French historians and actors informations have to be not neglected.
Consequently, I shall be happy to help your investigation, in sending you photostats of 1942 reports about that putsch, published in 1943 by Free France, in London.
Sincerely Yours.
Philomax 2 Philomax 2 5 July 2005 10:49 (UTC)
Hi Philomax
Thanks for the extra information. I have a few questions about the Algiers coup that you might be able to answer.
1) My reading indicates that the Algiers coup started at around midnight on 7th/8th November, and was effectively put down by sometime on the 8th. Is that the case?
The starting begun by the departure of 27 private cars and 6 coaches from the garage Lavaysse, on November 7, beetween 11h P.M. and 12 P.M. to pick up the voluntaries and bring them to their different targets. During the transport, they received their guns (old Lebels), their official arm-badges, and their assignment orders. The whole targets were occupated on November 8, beetween 0h30 and 1h30. The civil and military telephonic Centrals were occupated and stopped at 1h30.
In the Commissariat central was appointed a new Commissaire Central at 1h30. Then that building was immediately occupated by 20 resistants and became the headquarter of the Coup. There José Aboulker (22 years old)took the control of the Official telephone line standard (the only line kept intact) and received from every commissariat news from the occupation from every target points.
The coup has been put down in some places, but neither at the same time, and nor in the whole Algiers: The repression of the putsch will catch the Vichyist forces all the day long: The vichyist retort begun at 6h30 with the reconquest by Garde mobile armoured cars of the Villa des Oliviers (with general Juin and Admiral Darlan). But the rest of Algiers stood yet in hands of the resistants. Then was organized the vichyist repression, with Senegalese troops and 5th Chasseurs armoured cars, who attacked, one after the other, the resistants bases, and obtained, most of the time by negociations, their evacuation. The center of Algiers was reconquested beetween 7h30 A.M. and 1h o'clock P.M.
2) Juin and Darlan were 'arrested' during the coup. When the coup was put down, presumably they were released. Is that also the case?
Then, at 3h10 P.M., the cannon sound awaked the whole Algiers.
Darlan went to Etat-major Marine, in hotel Saint-Georges, and around 8h o'Clock, he sent a telegram to Vichy to ask for a Luftwaffe bombing of the allied transports near Algiers.
3) Do you have any more information on the Oran coup, which I knew nothing about.
4) Could you have a look at this site, which is very detailed but of unknown accuracy. [1] It gives a very clear picture of Darlan and Juin at large and free to negotiate.
Thanks DJ Clayworth 5 July 2005 13:29 (UTC)
I also found this site [2] , which says "Gaullists manage to seize a few government buildings and hold Admiral Darlan captive for a shortime but being put down by Vichy police". Is that a fair summary? DJ Clayworth 5 July 2005 13:39 (UTC)
Regarding the two coups, I also found the exact quote from Keegan: "However American over-caution in preserving the security of their plans prompted [anti-Petainists] to premature action, which resulted in Vichy adherents resecuring control of Algiers and Casablanca..." DJ Clayworth 6 July 2005 06:34 (UTC)
More questions - sorry these are coming in bits. Did you really mean that the coup objectives in Algiers were not seized until 1pm (1300hrs)? What time was Darlan arrested? DJ Clayworth 6 July 2005 06:49 (UTC)
More, I'm afraid. I think these two paragraphs are misleading.
By "Vichyist capacity under American protectorate" I presume you are referring to Darlan being placed in charge by the Americans. I think it's unfair to call it that - Darlan agreed to change sides, and Giraud was already on the Allied side. It's not, after all, as though the Vichy regime was being supportive of what Darlan was doing - in fact they were furious. DJ Clayworth 6 July 2005 07:12 (UTC)
On a military point of view, the alliance with Darlan, may be understood during the first weeks. But quickly it became unnecessary, but nevertheless was maintained with Giraud, because Roosevelt, badly informed (by Leahy, Murphy, and some Frenchmen refugied in States, as far as possible from the battle), wanted absolutely to eliminate (politically) général de Gaulle.
I hope I have given to you the every answers you wished to get. Cordially Yours.
Philomax 2 Philomax 2 6 July 2005 13:25 (UTC)
Thanks for those answers; very detailed and exactly what I wanted to know.
Let me check I've got this right. The Algiers coup begins around midnight on 7th/8th. By 0130 all the objectives are captured, and Juin and Darlan both made prisoner at Villa des Oliviers. Murphy visits him and messages are sent. The Vichyists use armoured cars to recapture the key positions from the resistance, freeing Darlan and Juin around 0630. The city is completely retaken by 1300 on 8th November.
Do you know anything about Charles Mast? He seems to have been a key player, in that he ordered his troops around Algiers not to resist the Allies, but in fact to welcome them. Was he involved with the resistance? DJ Clayworth 6 July 2005 16:31 (UTC)
Nevertheless, its help to resistance has been important. At the difference of the Giraud one who had been nonexistent. (Giraud refused to rejoin Algiers the 8th november, because he had been disappointed on the 7 of November not to command the whole Operation Torch).
a) David Lippman site
He gave some exact, but fragmented, informations about the putsch, he has get from Guy Cohen, who had been one of the resistants of the Commissariat Central, besides José Aboulker. But Lippman includes two errors:
- 1st error: The arrestation of Juin and Darlan had not been realized by "40 aspirants", but by only one aspirant (Pauphilet) with 2 tens of youngsters of the neighbouring Ben Aknoun school ! ('I dont believe the whole Algiers garrison could include 40 aspirants !)
- 2nd error: Fernand Bonnier de La Chapelle, the further young Darlan executor, was not a member of that group.
b) Richard Doody site
Two errors in 4 lines:
- 1st Error: The police did not arrested any resistant the 8th of November, as, after the occupation of Commissariat central by resistance, most of the policemen inside that place joined the resistants. Consequently the later repression has not been realized by police, like told the erroneous text of Richard Doody, but only by Army, including the French gendarmery (i.e. the 7th Legion of Gardes mobiles).
- 2nd Error: The putsch has not been completely put down by the army, and, as much the main Resistants position of Commissariat Central, as the important barrage on Boulevard Baudin (cutting the main axis of communications with inland in the middle of Algiers), has been kept by resistants, till the end of the afternoon.
Philomax 2 Philomax 2 7 July 2005 10:47 (UTC)
I've changed some of the description of the Algiers coup again. According to everthing I've read, and Philomax 2 above, the coup in Algiers was over by the end of the 8th. Darlan clearly wasn't under arrest at the time Juin contacted him. I've read several accounts of the interaction between Murphy, Juin and Darlan and it's completely clear that Darlan has freedom of action. It isn't even known that Darlan is in Algiers until Juin tells Murphy on the morning of the 8th. There is also no indication that Allied forces could have surrounded Algiers on the 8th. The landing forces were still coming under fire at that time.
By the way my dictionary translates "gendarmerie" as police force. DJ Clayworth 15:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Could someone explain why the change from Vichy French to German? How are we going to use these terms? My understanding that (for example) the Oran harbor was defended by forces that were under a French flag, spoke French. While I can understand that calling them "French" forces could be problematic, calling them exclusively German obscures the facts some. I had thought, when discussing this period, the terms "Vichy French" and "Free French" would be a useful way to distinguish. I am going to revert the changes, but am open to discussion about it. John (Jwy) 09:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
The treatment of his relationship with Operation Torch was far too detailed and I have trimmed it down to essentials. Some of that information looks like it should be incorporated into the section on Algiers here:
I will allow people familiar with this article to decide what needs to be fixed. -- Dhartung | Talk 23:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying in your summary in the top right that U.S. is a belligerent country? (unsigned by User:71.115.241.207)
One thing that has always bothered me about this particular article, and about the historical sources readily available on Operation Torch, is the lack of thorough detail about the naval actions at Casablanca. From various information which is available, one can deduce that this was a naval battle of some significance, perhaps enough so to merit its own article. I have yet to find enough information to confirm this, the best info I have seen thus far is an order of battle found on navweaps.com, though someone more versed in the particular history of this action might know of better resources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.172.213.218 ( talk) 01:51, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Our article here covers only the landings themselves, with a duration of a couple of days. However examining some more sources, including Eisenhower's own report, makes it clear that TORCH refers to the entire operation to capture Tunisia from the West, with a duration of months.
I'm going to try to extend this article by pulling thigs in from other articles - unless anyone thinks we should rename this article to something else. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 18:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
The point of wikipedia though is to be an encyclopedia. Operation Torch was an actual thing that happened therefore deserves it's own page outlining the whole thing and what it was and what happened. If there is already a separate page on the Tunisia campaign then that's not an issue, you simply have a summary of it plus a link to the main article. 2A02:C7D:86B:4A00:1CF1:1E21:945A:2F4D ( talk) 13:50, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
FYI, a list of sources on this subject can be found here: [3]. Cla68 ( talk) 03:56, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can see there were no Free French units involved. There were some resistance fighters and the odd renegade Vichy unit but these were in no way linked to the Free French government in exile. In the following Tunisia Campaign these troops are classified as just "French" to distinguish them from Free French forces fighting with 8th Army. I proposing to change the infobox to reflect this. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:46, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
This was an attack on French colonial and motherland (northern Algeria) territory. No significant German forces were involved in the operation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.221.118.173 ( talk) 20:02, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I question deletion of the category: Naval battles involving the United States for this article by User:Kirrages. Most amphibious invasions are considered naval battles because of the participation of warships to escort the troopships and provide gunfire support during the landings. As described in this article, French cruisers, destroyers, and submarines sortied from Casablanca to oppose Operation Torch and were destroyed by the United States Navy covering force including the battleship Massachusetts. Thewellman ( talk) 15:25, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Hmmm. I guess I'm just uncomfortable with it being described as a naval battle. I guess I would be more comfortable if the category was "Naval battles and operations involving the United States". And I think it important to make the distinction. Take the air equivalent: there was a major air involvement in, say, Operation Neptune (Normandy landings). Although there were some air to air engagements, aircraft mainly were providing support to the land operation. So Neptune included air operations but it wasn't an air battle. By contrast, the Battle of Britain was principally air to air combat so can be described as an air battle. Now there may be a precise military history definition somewhere that I'm unaware of but to an amateur like me, describing Torch as a naval battle is just counter-intuitive and confusing! Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 23:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
For those of you not aware, there's an important discussion mentioning this article at Template talk:WW2InfoBox, where input is welcome. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 10:01, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I get the feeling from this rather lengthy document that Operation Gymnast wasn't really the forerunner of Torch because it had comparatively limited objectives whereas Mohican is clearly outlined as a plan to take the whole of French North Africa. Can anyone shed any light on that? Mr impossible ( talk) 15:58, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Its rather hard to put this campaign into context with respect to timing relative to the to-and-fro campaigns in Libya, which strangely gets no mention here at all. Eregli bob ( talk) 13:15, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
The section claiming that the Tuskegee Airmen of the 332nd Fighter Group were involved in Torch is totally false and has been deleted. The citation for that claim is "Homan and Reilley" but the book is absent from the source list. I found it on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Tuskegee-Airmen-Story-Lynn-Homan/dp/1589800052. Apparently it's a children's book. In any case, the 332nd was not formed until October 1942 (a month before Torch) and the group did not arrive in the Mediterranean Theater until more than a year later. The original tuskegee unit, the 99th Fighter Squadron, arrived in North Africa in April 1943.
Among other sources, see "Tuskegee Airmen Chronology" by Dr. Daniel Haulman, USAF Historical Research Agency, Maxwell AFB, Alabama, 2012.
≈≈ B Tillman, 27 Oct 12 ≈≈ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Btillman ( talk • contribs) 18:08, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
What book does the "Watson (2007)" inline citation point to? Thanks, Tomandjerry211 ( Let's have a chat) 11:51, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
Weren't the French their own group, and therefore French as used in the original article in the case, "the British-United States invasion of French North Africa" factually incorrect? Honestly, I think it should be fascist North Africa. -- 174.24.53.158 ( talk) 22:02, 9 April 2018 (UTC)Mint — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.24.53.158 ( talk) 21:53, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
This is anecdotal, but readers might find it of interest. My father was a cabin boy, later a steward, on various British merchant navy ships in the Mediterranean at the time. He told me of one landing operation, where they carried American troops to somewhere in North Africa. He then told me that "a lot of funny things happened in the war that you don't read about", and that the ship he was on had British troops wearing American army unifom. He didn't know why, and I didn't make the (possible) connection with Torch until many years later. Of course, if somebody wrote this in a book, it would probably be citable evidence! But until then it remains an anecdote. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.68.54 ( talk) 00:53, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
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In section “Background” it is said that “… The French were former Allies of the U.S. ….”. To my knowledge, the French were not former allies of the U.S., inasmuch France, which was allied with Britain since 1939, was defeated by, and signed an armistice with, Germany at June 1940, while U.S. entered into war only at December 1941. Ekisbares ( talk) 15:14, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
The article's claim presumably means that France and the US were allies during the Great War of 1914-18. Or at least during the last part of it, due to the American habit of turning up fashionably late to important occasions. Khamba Tendal ( talk) 18:25, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Regarding the current disagreement: There is a discussion on the use of decisive victory in infoboxes and article bodies going on at the WikiProject Military History talk page. ( Hohum @) 12:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
"The Allies planned an Anglo-American invasion of north-western Africa/Maghreb—Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, territory nominally in the hands of the Vichy French government. With much of North Africa already under Allied control, this would allow the Allies to carry out a pincer operation against Axis forces in North Africa. "
When Operation Torch was being planned, in the summer of 1942, the Vichy French ( allies of the Germans ) were in control of Morroco, Algeria and Tunisia, and the German Afrika Korps and Italians controlled all of Libya and were still threatening Alexandria in Egypt. The Germans did not lose the initiative until they were beaten at the second battle of el Alamein. Therefore, the half of the sentence "With much of North Africa already under allied control,.... " is nonsensical. The second part of the sentence " would allow the Allie to carry out a pincer movement against Axis forces in North Africa." is correct, however. Lathamibird ( talk) 05:09, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Before the implementation of Operation Torch ( which by definition, came after Operation Torch was "planned"), and the British victory at el Alamein, almost NONE of North Africa was already under Allied control. Lathamibird ( talk) 05:09, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
On the night of 7 November, pro-Allied General Antoine Béthouart attempted a coup d'etat against the French command in Morocco, so that he could surrender to the Allies the next day.
Can someone explain why the end date of Torch is given as 16th of November? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:86B:4A00:1CF1:1E21:945A:2F4D ( talk) 13:55, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Just added in North Africa campaign infobox as this is a vital part of the campaign yet the campaignbox for it is not present on the page.Tried doing this with visual editor but ended up with endless duplication so just used source Anonymous contributor 1707 ( talk) 16:07, 3 February 2021 (UTC).
“ The French colonies in the area were dominated by the French, formally aligned with Germany but of mixed loyalties”
Excuse me. Algeria was a French colony, pure and simple. So was Morocco, so was Senegal. So was the Ivory Coast. When France itself surrendered to Germany it negotiated an extremely nuanced understanding. The Atlantic coast and the northern half of country were under German military occupation. The southern half (Vichy) was nominally somewhat autonomous. Nominally, it controlled the French fleet at Toulon. The Allies’ position was that France should avoid attacking them, but when the Eastern Front opened up, the Germans decided to worry about French North Africa and occupied the south of France. The British scuttled the French Navy. Vichy was also nominally the colonial administrator of French colonies, then The German military government. This affected the average Algerian very little, French expatriates somewhat more so. Allies believed the colonized population might rise up. All of this is too much for the lede, so I vote we just say these counties were French colonies. No they were not French; the Berbers had a whole different legal status that the colonizers.
Elinruby (
talk)
17:49, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
The sentence you removed was intended, I think, to indicate that the loyalties of the area were unclear to the attackers. I thought it did that, but hopefully my first pass at a replacement does so. We need to do _something_ more than just remove the sentence. --John ( User:Jwy/ talk) 05:39, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
The refrigerated cargo ship Contessa did play a significant role in the operation by making a run under fire to Port-Lyautey with aviation gasoline and munitions. Recent additions here of a photo of the ship and the Hondouran flag raise the question of the ship and Honduran involvement in Operation Torch. The ship cannot be used to indicate significant involvement.
The ship's ownership and operation for the period is shown in the Maritime Administration Status Card. Contessa was owned by the Standard Fruit and Steamship Company and turned over to the War Shipping Administration (WSA) on May 29, 1942 and placed in operation with Standard Fruit as the WSA agent under a General Agency Agreement. On July 14, 1943, after being chosen for a combat operation supporting the delivery of gasoline and munitions to the captured airfield at Port Lyautey the ship was sub bareboat chartered to the U.S. Army which could crew the vessel with military personnel. The Wiki article linked contains the referenced line:
The only link to Honduras was the vessel's registry and flag of convenience. Operations and crew were U.S. Army matters for the operation. The ship went on to finish the war under Army in the Southwest Pacific. A number of seized and U.S. company owned ships operating for WSA were for political reasons flagged in Central American countries. The countries generally had little to no role in operations. Palmeira ( talk) 15:50, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
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Algiers section really needs edited. It doesn't look right, it doesn't read right. There's too much uninterrupted text and the english isn't exactly perfect. -- Gantlord 23:04, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There are way too many galicisms. I am eliminating the most obvious ones — bad phrasing, excess of commas, lack of capitalisation etc — as well as letting the text flow by eliminating forced brakes or substituting paragraphs for them.
That this was translated from French explains a lot. There are some things very hard to understand. Do the three figures for troops refer to the three landings? Are the ship figures the total? Why is so little written about the Oran landings? Good target for some more research. DJ Clayworth 20:51, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Dear Colleagues, Gantlord and Clayworth,
Concerning the galicisms of the Algiers French coup of 1942 paragraph, I am plainly guilty, and should be grateful to the user kind enough to correct my style. I hesitated before to include my complements to that article, but I did it because I estimated in an Encyclopedia, the true was more important than the style. But of course, the style too is very important, and it is why I wrote in the beginning my “Philomax 2” user page: “As a Sorbonne professor, I have a correct competence in History, Politics, and French Public Law... but, unhappily, not in English language. So, I hope some other W. users will not hesitate to ameliorate the style of my texts”.
Philomax 2 Philomax 2 5 July 2005 10:49 (UTC)
I've been unable to substantiate what is written about the French coup of 8th November. Other sources simply say that there was an attempted otherthrow of the local government which was put down. In particular I am unable to find any reference that backs up the claim that an entire Army Corps (tens of thousands of soldiers) were neutralised by 400 resistance fighters. Here is the text I removed.
That putsch was one of the most beautiful feats of arms of French resistance, by its circumstances and especially by its effects. It indeed allowed the success of Torch operation, i.e. Allied landing in the whole North Africa, whose success, beside the allied victories of El-Alamein and Stalingrad constituted the turning of the war: Pursuant to secretly made agreements in Cherchell on 23 October 1942, between Algiers resistance and the combined command, 400 badly armed French civil resistants, the 2/3 of them being jewishes, neutralized, alone, the coastal artillery of Cherchell and the vichyist XIXème army corps of Algiers during about fifteen hours. To get that result their groups, under the command of José Aboulker (22 years), Henri d'Astier de La Vigerie, and colonel Jousse, had occupied, during the night from the 7 to 8 November, the majority of the strategic points (General Government, Prefecture, Staff headquarters, barracks, etc.) and arrested most of the vichyist military and civil rulers. One of their groups, composed with some eldest pupils of the Ben-Aknoun College, and directed by the young non commissioned officer (aspirant) Pauphilet, had succeeded in arresting General Juin, Chief commandant in North Africa, as well as the collaborationist admiral Darlan, suddenly present in Algiers that night.
Towards 1 hour after midnight the consul Murphy had gone to the villa des Oliviers to give a message of the president Roosevelt with the General Juin, Head commander of French Africa army. The message of Roosevelt required of the army of Africa to receive the United States forces as friends and to join them, so as to release France from German domination. But general Juin and later on admiral Darlan refused to receive peacefully American forces.
At the same time, in Sidi-Ferruch, Colonel Baril, one of the rare resistants among the professional officers, had succeeded in occupying the fort with one of its companies, and in neutralizing its artillery batteries, so that the landing allied forces were going to be able to take foot on Sidi-Ferruch beach without any loss. The other landing points were the Pointe Pescade, close by Algiers, and the Cape Matifou beaches, on the eastern side of the city.
Unfortunately, many soldiers of American general Ryder lost their lifes before arriving on shore, as the sea was agitated and the night very black: the pilots of the landing-crafts — which were going to prove reliable later on in Normandy — had not practically get any drive training, for lack of time. Many landing-crafts charged with heavily equipped soldiers knocked the hulls of the ships, or were badly moored on the landing beaches and then rejected by the sea, on those which followed them. Also a number of them were turned and run over by the sea with their occupants. As a result, the surviving soldiers landed in a more reduced number than expected, while the landing-crafts of material were thrown on other beaches than the soldiers charged to use them.
Under these conditions General Ryder, who during hours had not any vehicle, did not dare, despite the requests of the resistance messengers, to walk immediately on Algiers. And thereafter, when he got under way, he was limited, jointly with its forces landed in the east of the city, to encircle the town by the heights without penetrating there. Actually, disabled by its losses at sea, he did not manage to admit that a few hundreds of civil volunteers had really been able to seize a city defended by an army corps.
Around 3 hours A.M., detonations resounded in the port, where two American destroyers had succeeded in being introduced, and in landing on one of the piers a 300 rangers detachment directed by colonel Swenson. Their goal was to seize the port, to maintain it intact, so that it could immediately be used to land the allied reinforcements. The artillery of admiralty, by cannonading the allied vessels, awoke anybody in Algiers then. The seaboard gendarmes of Darlan, after having killed a dozen American soldiers, did not manage to overcome the well armed commandos. Their attack of the port was only later neutralized by vichyist forces, with the assistance of the armoured tanks of the 5ème Chasseurs.
Later in the morning, Juin and Darlan have been liberated by the mobile guards, and Darlan sent a cable to Vichy, to ask for a bombing by German Luftwaffe of the allied transport vessels in front of Algiers.
Further in the day, Vichy forces spent all the day to besiege the resistant groups one after the other, instead of attack the landing forces on the beaches. Consequently Ryder, after having encircled Algiers, began to penetrate in the town around 5 o’Clock PM, and allied mortars sent some projectiles on vichyist command in Fort-L’Empereur. Then Juin and Darlan, overestimating allied forces, decided to surrender, but only for Algiers.
Thus, it was thanks to French resistants, which prevented the vichyist Algiers garrison from being mobilized, that the allied forces could land without meeting resistance, encircle Algiers and obtain the surrendering from that key port the very day.
DJ Clayworth 02:46, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I have done substantial searches and reading, and I can find no serious historians who claim that the 'putsch' in Algiers had a major effect on the conduct of the operation. John Keegan mentions it as an unfortunate tragedy (i.e. that it was initiated too early, before the Allies had a chance to support it properly). I have also yet to find a reliable source that says that Juin or Darlan were captured by this coup. If they were, then presumably they were freed when the putsch was put down. If you have any sources to back up the claims that the coup had a noticeable effect on the battle, of that leaders were captured, then please cite them. Otherwise I'm afraid they have to go. DJ Clayworth 4 July 2005 15:16 (UTC)
Dear Colleague Clayworth,
I redacted the paragraph here included about the Algiers coup, and appreciate your interest about it. But:
1°) The missed coup to neutralize French vichyst oppostion happened in Morocco, and not in Algiers: There, indeed, in Rabat and Casablanca, the patriot general Bethouard, badly informed about the landing hour, made an attempt of putsch "too early, before the Allies had a chance to support it properly", and that was really an unfortunate tragedy.
But it was not the same in Algiers, and the silence of Mr John Keegan about that successful coup of French patriots (who risked their lifes in Algiers to spare strong casualities to Allied forces) seems me regrettable, even in a book about the whole World war II.
2°) I am surprised how you did not find a reliable source that says that Juin or Darlan were captured by this coup: Their capture, during 5 hours is told in every book, or report (in French or in English), of
the bibliography indicated at the end of the article. The ex aspirant Pauphilet who directed the group of youngsters having arrested those generals in Villa des Oliviers, is still alive in Paris, and is the chairman of "Association de la Libération du 8 novembre 1942".
3°) Concerning the Neutralization of the XIXth Corps in Algiers by 400 resistants, it is first necessary to remind that Army corps did not included "tens of thousands of soldiers", but was, because of armistice, reducted to an effective of 12000 men located in the whole Algiers région. 7000 of them stood in he towns of Algiers, Blida and Kolea. Among the 5000 located in Algiers a number were allocated to headquarters, so as the only real fighting forces were 2 regiments, 1 légion of “Gardes mobiles”, and some navy forces.
4°) The neutralization consisted of taking over from 1 o'clock P.M. every strategic points, and afterwards in delaying the vichyist repression, concentrated all the day long on reconquest of the resistants bases, instead of attacking landing forces, who, so, could peacefully encircle Algiers.
By exemple the Central post-office was besieged, at 7h P.M. by armoured cars of the French 5th Chasseurs Regiment: (who was planned to defend the Maison Blanche Airport). There the resistant group leader lieutenant Dreyfus refused to surrender and was killed. But, during that time, a company of the 39th American Infantry regiment could occupy that Maison Blanche airport, the main of North Africa, without any Vichyist opposition.
Even repression was not completly successful, as Resistants kept their main base, the Commissariat Central, until the vichyist capitulation, at 6h30 P.M. .
5°) Concerning the Algiers coup history, everything is correct in the paragraph, and it would have been easy to substantiate your information in having a look to the books mentioned in bibliography, among which the reports of French putsch groups leaders who neutralized Algiers on November 8 1942. They have been published in London, during the war, in August 1943. You could also have consulted the specialised books about that period, indicated in the same bibliography, some of which are recent.
6°) As Operation Torch was acted in French territories, French historians and actors informations have to be not neglected.
Consequently, I shall be happy to help your investigation, in sending you photostats of 1942 reports about that putsch, published in 1943 by Free France, in London.
Sincerely Yours.
Philomax 2 Philomax 2 5 July 2005 10:49 (UTC)
Hi Philomax
Thanks for the extra information. I have a few questions about the Algiers coup that you might be able to answer.
1) My reading indicates that the Algiers coup started at around midnight on 7th/8th November, and was effectively put down by sometime on the 8th. Is that the case?
The starting begun by the departure of 27 private cars and 6 coaches from the garage Lavaysse, on November 7, beetween 11h P.M. and 12 P.M. to pick up the voluntaries and bring them to their different targets. During the transport, they received their guns (old Lebels), their official arm-badges, and their assignment orders. The whole targets were occupated on November 8, beetween 0h30 and 1h30. The civil and military telephonic Centrals were occupated and stopped at 1h30.
In the Commissariat central was appointed a new Commissaire Central at 1h30. Then that building was immediately occupated by 20 resistants and became the headquarter of the Coup. There José Aboulker (22 years old)took the control of the Official telephone line standard (the only line kept intact) and received from every commissariat news from the occupation from every target points.
The coup has been put down in some places, but neither at the same time, and nor in the whole Algiers: The repression of the putsch will catch the Vichyist forces all the day long: The vichyist retort begun at 6h30 with the reconquest by Garde mobile armoured cars of the Villa des Oliviers (with general Juin and Admiral Darlan). But the rest of Algiers stood yet in hands of the resistants. Then was organized the vichyist repression, with Senegalese troops and 5th Chasseurs armoured cars, who attacked, one after the other, the resistants bases, and obtained, most of the time by negociations, their evacuation. The center of Algiers was reconquested beetween 7h30 A.M. and 1h o'clock P.M.
2) Juin and Darlan were 'arrested' during the coup. When the coup was put down, presumably they were released. Is that also the case?
Then, at 3h10 P.M., the cannon sound awaked the whole Algiers.
Darlan went to Etat-major Marine, in hotel Saint-Georges, and around 8h o'Clock, he sent a telegram to Vichy to ask for a Luftwaffe bombing of the allied transports near Algiers.
3) Do you have any more information on the Oran coup, which I knew nothing about.
4) Could you have a look at this site, which is very detailed but of unknown accuracy. [1] It gives a very clear picture of Darlan and Juin at large and free to negotiate.
Thanks DJ Clayworth 5 July 2005 13:29 (UTC)
I also found this site [2] , which says "Gaullists manage to seize a few government buildings and hold Admiral Darlan captive for a shortime but being put down by Vichy police". Is that a fair summary? DJ Clayworth 5 July 2005 13:39 (UTC)
Regarding the two coups, I also found the exact quote from Keegan: "However American over-caution in preserving the security of their plans prompted [anti-Petainists] to premature action, which resulted in Vichy adherents resecuring control of Algiers and Casablanca..." DJ Clayworth 6 July 2005 06:34 (UTC)
More questions - sorry these are coming in bits. Did you really mean that the coup objectives in Algiers were not seized until 1pm (1300hrs)? What time was Darlan arrested? DJ Clayworth 6 July 2005 06:49 (UTC)
More, I'm afraid. I think these two paragraphs are misleading.
By "Vichyist capacity under American protectorate" I presume you are referring to Darlan being placed in charge by the Americans. I think it's unfair to call it that - Darlan agreed to change sides, and Giraud was already on the Allied side. It's not, after all, as though the Vichy regime was being supportive of what Darlan was doing - in fact they were furious. DJ Clayworth 6 July 2005 07:12 (UTC)
On a military point of view, the alliance with Darlan, may be understood during the first weeks. But quickly it became unnecessary, but nevertheless was maintained with Giraud, because Roosevelt, badly informed (by Leahy, Murphy, and some Frenchmen refugied in States, as far as possible from the battle), wanted absolutely to eliminate (politically) général de Gaulle.
I hope I have given to you the every answers you wished to get. Cordially Yours.
Philomax 2 Philomax 2 6 July 2005 13:25 (UTC)
Thanks for those answers; very detailed and exactly what I wanted to know.
Let me check I've got this right. The Algiers coup begins around midnight on 7th/8th. By 0130 all the objectives are captured, and Juin and Darlan both made prisoner at Villa des Oliviers. Murphy visits him and messages are sent. The Vichyists use armoured cars to recapture the key positions from the resistance, freeing Darlan and Juin around 0630. The city is completely retaken by 1300 on 8th November.
Do you know anything about Charles Mast? He seems to have been a key player, in that he ordered his troops around Algiers not to resist the Allies, but in fact to welcome them. Was he involved with the resistance? DJ Clayworth 6 July 2005 16:31 (UTC)
Nevertheless, its help to resistance has been important. At the difference of the Giraud one who had been nonexistent. (Giraud refused to rejoin Algiers the 8th november, because he had been disappointed on the 7 of November not to command the whole Operation Torch).
a) David Lippman site
He gave some exact, but fragmented, informations about the putsch, he has get from Guy Cohen, who had been one of the resistants of the Commissariat Central, besides José Aboulker. But Lippman includes two errors:
- 1st error: The arrestation of Juin and Darlan had not been realized by "40 aspirants", but by only one aspirant (Pauphilet) with 2 tens of youngsters of the neighbouring Ben Aknoun school ! ('I dont believe the whole Algiers garrison could include 40 aspirants !)
- 2nd error: Fernand Bonnier de La Chapelle, the further young Darlan executor, was not a member of that group.
b) Richard Doody site
Two errors in 4 lines:
- 1st Error: The police did not arrested any resistant the 8th of November, as, after the occupation of Commissariat central by resistance, most of the policemen inside that place joined the resistants. Consequently the later repression has not been realized by police, like told the erroneous text of Richard Doody, but only by Army, including the French gendarmery (i.e. the 7th Legion of Gardes mobiles).
- 2nd Error: The putsch has not been completely put down by the army, and, as much the main Resistants position of Commissariat Central, as the important barrage on Boulevard Baudin (cutting the main axis of communications with inland in the middle of Algiers), has been kept by resistants, till the end of the afternoon.
Philomax 2 Philomax 2 7 July 2005 10:47 (UTC)
I've changed some of the description of the Algiers coup again. According to everthing I've read, and Philomax 2 above, the coup in Algiers was over by the end of the 8th. Darlan clearly wasn't under arrest at the time Juin contacted him. I've read several accounts of the interaction between Murphy, Juin and Darlan and it's completely clear that Darlan has freedom of action. It isn't even known that Darlan is in Algiers until Juin tells Murphy on the morning of the 8th. There is also no indication that Allied forces could have surrounded Algiers on the 8th. The landing forces were still coming under fire at that time.
By the way my dictionary translates "gendarmerie" as police force. DJ Clayworth 15:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Could someone explain why the change from Vichy French to German? How are we going to use these terms? My understanding that (for example) the Oran harbor was defended by forces that were under a French flag, spoke French. While I can understand that calling them "French" forces could be problematic, calling them exclusively German obscures the facts some. I had thought, when discussing this period, the terms "Vichy French" and "Free French" would be a useful way to distinguish. I am going to revert the changes, but am open to discussion about it. John (Jwy) 09:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
The treatment of his relationship with Operation Torch was far too detailed and I have trimmed it down to essentials. Some of that information looks like it should be incorporated into the section on Algiers here:
I will allow people familiar with this article to decide what needs to be fixed. -- Dhartung | Talk 23:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying in your summary in the top right that U.S. is a belligerent country? (unsigned by User:71.115.241.207)
One thing that has always bothered me about this particular article, and about the historical sources readily available on Operation Torch, is the lack of thorough detail about the naval actions at Casablanca. From various information which is available, one can deduce that this was a naval battle of some significance, perhaps enough so to merit its own article. I have yet to find enough information to confirm this, the best info I have seen thus far is an order of battle found on navweaps.com, though someone more versed in the particular history of this action might know of better resources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.172.213.218 ( talk) 01:51, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Our article here covers only the landings themselves, with a duration of a couple of days. However examining some more sources, including Eisenhower's own report, makes it clear that TORCH refers to the entire operation to capture Tunisia from the West, with a duration of months.
I'm going to try to extend this article by pulling thigs in from other articles - unless anyone thinks we should rename this article to something else. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 18:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
The point of wikipedia though is to be an encyclopedia. Operation Torch was an actual thing that happened therefore deserves it's own page outlining the whole thing and what it was and what happened. If there is already a separate page on the Tunisia campaign then that's not an issue, you simply have a summary of it plus a link to the main article. 2A02:C7D:86B:4A00:1CF1:1E21:945A:2F4D ( talk) 13:50, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
FYI, a list of sources on this subject can be found here: [3]. Cla68 ( talk) 03:56, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can see there were no Free French units involved. There were some resistance fighters and the odd renegade Vichy unit but these were in no way linked to the Free French government in exile. In the following Tunisia Campaign these troops are classified as just "French" to distinguish them from Free French forces fighting with 8th Army. I proposing to change the infobox to reflect this. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:46, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
This was an attack on French colonial and motherland (northern Algeria) territory. No significant German forces were involved in the operation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.221.118.173 ( talk) 20:02, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I question deletion of the category: Naval battles involving the United States for this article by User:Kirrages. Most amphibious invasions are considered naval battles because of the participation of warships to escort the troopships and provide gunfire support during the landings. As described in this article, French cruisers, destroyers, and submarines sortied from Casablanca to oppose Operation Torch and were destroyed by the United States Navy covering force including the battleship Massachusetts. Thewellman ( talk) 15:25, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Hmmm. I guess I'm just uncomfortable with it being described as a naval battle. I guess I would be more comfortable if the category was "Naval battles and operations involving the United States". And I think it important to make the distinction. Take the air equivalent: there was a major air involvement in, say, Operation Neptune (Normandy landings). Although there were some air to air engagements, aircraft mainly were providing support to the land operation. So Neptune included air operations but it wasn't an air battle. By contrast, the Battle of Britain was principally air to air combat so can be described as an air battle. Now there may be a precise military history definition somewhere that I'm unaware of but to an amateur like me, describing Torch as a naval battle is just counter-intuitive and confusing! Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 23:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
For those of you not aware, there's an important discussion mentioning this article at Template talk:WW2InfoBox, where input is welcome. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 10:01, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I get the feeling from this rather lengthy document that Operation Gymnast wasn't really the forerunner of Torch because it had comparatively limited objectives whereas Mohican is clearly outlined as a plan to take the whole of French North Africa. Can anyone shed any light on that? Mr impossible ( talk) 15:58, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Its rather hard to put this campaign into context with respect to timing relative to the to-and-fro campaigns in Libya, which strangely gets no mention here at all. Eregli bob ( talk) 13:15, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
The section claiming that the Tuskegee Airmen of the 332nd Fighter Group were involved in Torch is totally false and has been deleted. The citation for that claim is "Homan and Reilley" but the book is absent from the source list. I found it on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Tuskegee-Airmen-Story-Lynn-Homan/dp/1589800052. Apparently it's a children's book. In any case, the 332nd was not formed until October 1942 (a month before Torch) and the group did not arrive in the Mediterranean Theater until more than a year later. The original tuskegee unit, the 99th Fighter Squadron, arrived in North Africa in April 1943.
Among other sources, see "Tuskegee Airmen Chronology" by Dr. Daniel Haulman, USAF Historical Research Agency, Maxwell AFB, Alabama, 2012.
≈≈ B Tillman, 27 Oct 12 ≈≈ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Btillman ( talk • contribs) 18:08, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
What book does the "Watson (2007)" inline citation point to? Thanks, Tomandjerry211 ( Let's have a chat) 11:51, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
Weren't the French their own group, and therefore French as used in the original article in the case, "the British-United States invasion of French North Africa" factually incorrect? Honestly, I think it should be fascist North Africa. -- 174.24.53.158 ( talk) 22:02, 9 April 2018 (UTC)Mint — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.24.53.158 ( talk) 21:53, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
This is anecdotal, but readers might find it of interest. My father was a cabin boy, later a steward, on various British merchant navy ships in the Mediterranean at the time. He told me of one landing operation, where they carried American troops to somewhere in North Africa. He then told me that "a lot of funny things happened in the war that you don't read about", and that the ship he was on had British troops wearing American army unifom. He didn't know why, and I didn't make the (possible) connection with Torch until many years later. Of course, if somebody wrote this in a book, it would probably be citable evidence! But until then it remains an anecdote. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.68.54 ( talk) 00:53, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
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In section “Background” it is said that “… The French were former Allies of the U.S. ….”. To my knowledge, the French were not former allies of the U.S., inasmuch France, which was allied with Britain since 1939, was defeated by, and signed an armistice with, Germany at June 1940, while U.S. entered into war only at December 1941. Ekisbares ( talk) 15:14, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
The article's claim presumably means that France and the US were allies during the Great War of 1914-18. Or at least during the last part of it, due to the American habit of turning up fashionably late to important occasions. Khamba Tendal ( talk) 18:25, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Regarding the current disagreement: There is a discussion on the use of decisive victory in infoboxes and article bodies going on at the WikiProject Military History talk page. ( Hohum @) 12:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
"The Allies planned an Anglo-American invasion of north-western Africa/Maghreb—Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, territory nominally in the hands of the Vichy French government. With much of North Africa already under Allied control, this would allow the Allies to carry out a pincer operation against Axis forces in North Africa. "
When Operation Torch was being planned, in the summer of 1942, the Vichy French ( allies of the Germans ) were in control of Morroco, Algeria and Tunisia, and the German Afrika Korps and Italians controlled all of Libya and were still threatening Alexandria in Egypt. The Germans did not lose the initiative until they were beaten at the second battle of el Alamein. Therefore, the half of the sentence "With much of North Africa already under allied control,.... " is nonsensical. The second part of the sentence " would allow the Allie to carry out a pincer movement against Axis forces in North Africa." is correct, however. Lathamibird ( talk) 05:09, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Before the implementation of Operation Torch ( which by definition, came after Operation Torch was "planned"), and the British victory at el Alamein, almost NONE of North Africa was already under Allied control. Lathamibird ( talk) 05:09, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
On the night of 7 November, pro-Allied General Antoine Béthouart attempted a coup d'etat against the French command in Morocco, so that he could surrender to the Allies the next day.
Can someone explain why the end date of Torch is given as 16th of November? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:86B:4A00:1CF1:1E21:945A:2F4D ( talk) 13:55, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Just added in North Africa campaign infobox as this is a vital part of the campaign yet the campaignbox for it is not present on the page.Tried doing this with visual editor but ended up with endless duplication so just used source Anonymous contributor 1707 ( talk) 16:07, 3 February 2021 (UTC).
“ The French colonies in the area were dominated by the French, formally aligned with Germany but of mixed loyalties”
Excuse me. Algeria was a French colony, pure and simple. So was Morocco, so was Senegal. So was the Ivory Coast. When France itself surrendered to Germany it negotiated an extremely nuanced understanding. The Atlantic coast and the northern half of country were under German military occupation. The southern half (Vichy) was nominally somewhat autonomous. Nominally, it controlled the French fleet at Toulon. The Allies’ position was that France should avoid attacking them, but when the Eastern Front opened up, the Germans decided to worry about French North Africa and occupied the south of France. The British scuttled the French Navy. Vichy was also nominally the colonial administrator of French colonies, then The German military government. This affected the average Algerian very little, French expatriates somewhat more so. Allies believed the colonized population might rise up. All of this is too much for the lede, so I vote we just say these counties were French colonies. No they were not French; the Berbers had a whole different legal status that the colonizers.
Elinruby (
talk)
17:49, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
The sentence you removed was intended, I think, to indicate that the loyalties of the area were unclear to the attackers. I thought it did that, but hopefully my first pass at a replacement does so. We need to do _something_ more than just remove the sentence. --John ( User:Jwy/ talk) 05:39, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
The refrigerated cargo ship Contessa did play a significant role in the operation by making a run under fire to Port-Lyautey with aviation gasoline and munitions. Recent additions here of a photo of the ship and the Hondouran flag raise the question of the ship and Honduran involvement in Operation Torch. The ship cannot be used to indicate significant involvement.
The ship's ownership and operation for the period is shown in the Maritime Administration Status Card. Contessa was owned by the Standard Fruit and Steamship Company and turned over to the War Shipping Administration (WSA) on May 29, 1942 and placed in operation with Standard Fruit as the WSA agent under a General Agency Agreement. On July 14, 1943, after being chosen for a combat operation supporting the delivery of gasoline and munitions to the captured airfield at Port Lyautey the ship was sub bareboat chartered to the U.S. Army which could crew the vessel with military personnel. The Wiki article linked contains the referenced line:
The only link to Honduras was the vessel's registry and flag of convenience. Operations and crew were U.S. Army matters for the operation. The ship went on to finish the war under Army in the Southwest Pacific. A number of seized and U.S. company owned ships operating for WSA were for political reasons flagged in Central American countries. The countries generally had little to no role in operations. Palmeira ( talk) 15:50, 7 March 2021 (UTC)