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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
02:43, 1 May 2012 In ictu oculi m . . (In ictu oculi moved page Ondrej Latal to Ondřej Látal: [no complex history], per BLP accuracy, sources in article, MOS consistency with other Ondřejs and other Látals)
Amusingly, the RM posted just minutes before this one was for the
Chloë Moretz article to be renamed to "Chloë Grace Moretz". Even 100% "English" names sometimes have diacritics, but I don't recall seeing any requested moves to remove diacritics from such names, only for names of "foreign" persons. Would you propose a diacritic-less rename for Chloë (Moretz or
Sevigny)? (I'm asking in all seriousness) --
P.T. Aufrette (
talk)
00:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)reply
I do not know what GoodDay would propose but I would suggest that the AT policy and naming conventions were followed and that article titles are based on usage in reliable English language sources, rather than editorial likes and dislikes. --
PBS (
talk)
09:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Support, diacritics provide important pronunciation information for those familiar with a language and do not hinder reading or understanding for those who choose to ignore them. Although some English sources have omitted diacritics due to typographical or display constraints, scholarly and encyclopedic sources (which is what Wikipedia aspires to be) are far more likely to include them. Modern computers universally support display of European-language diacritics, eg, at least the ones in
WGL-4 or similar subsets. Wikipedia should render names with diacritics accurately. --
P.T. Aufrette (
talk)
00:21, 2 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Removing diacritics is a mistake and not how you properly translate a name to English. As such the diacritics are more accurate than removing them incorrectly would be. Per commonname inaccurate names are not used even if they are more commonly used in reliable sources. -
DJSasso (
talk)
19:10, 2 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Removing diacritics doesn't make a name english, it makes it misspelt. PBS, which bit of "more accurate name" is causing you problems? It's three unambiguous words.
bobrayner (
talk)
23:13, 2 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Perhaps we should look at this website
http://www.eliteprospects.com/team.php?team=164&year0=2011&status=stats which is being held up as a "reliable source" for spelling of BLP names. Note that it is actually a Swedish website and as such allows full Scandinavian names, (see Martin Møller among "contributors" r/h panel) but does not allow full Czech names (Jiří Svašek "contributors" becomes Jiri Svasek). Yet when we go to
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/256525/Dominik-Hasek we find Dominik Hašek Dominik Hašek, (born Jan. 29, 1965, Pardubice, Czech....
The link PBS gives say clearly "Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, assuming English sources of equal quality and relevance are available." In the case of
Dominik Hašek there is a reliable English source. In the case of given name
Ondřejs and surname
Látals there are reliable English sources. In the case of search-string Ondřej+Látal there are no reliable English sources on this search string. (given that www.eliteprospects.com the source in the article favours Swedish diacritics but doesn't allow Czech ones). In which case we follow "German names for German politicians" and the prime guideline of
WP:BLP to "get the article right." Leaving a living person's name mispelled because the Swedish owners of a sports (betting?) website don't extend the same courtesy to Czechs as Scandinavians may or may not be verging into
WP:Wikilawyering, I don't know, but it doesn't help acheive
wikt:accuracy by the normal meaning of the word. In answer to PBS' 2006 question "Is this an English Wikipedia or an international one?", the answer is the same now as then: "It's an encyclopedic one." so 99% of en.wp BLPs (and 211x non-hockey "Ondřej" BLPs), are on a par with the MOS of
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/256525/Dominik-Hasek and not the MOS of www.eliteprospects.com.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
23:48, 2 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Iio, it has been explained to you several times, that dragging up arguments from prior to June 2008 when what is now called the
article titles polisy, does not help elucidate the issues as prior to June 2008 the article titles policy was based on usage in all sources not just reliable ones. Your usage of selective quotes from polices and guidelines to push for a style of name you prefer instead of following the general advise as given, is less than helpful: for example your quoting of a very selective part of
WP:CRITERIA (part of
WP:AT) and totally ignoring
WP:UE another part of the same policy. One of the major problems with you selective use of consistency, is that if an article such as this is spelt "Latal" that is no reason in another article about another person called "Stanislav Látal" to be moved to "Stanislav Latal" simply because it is consistent with "Ondrej Latal". Each title should be decided by looking at the reliable English language sources for that subject, not on a flawed concept of consistency for consistency sake or worse a use of consistency to push an editorial point of view against usage in reliable English language sources.
So what your argument boils down to here is that there are no reliable English language sources for this man, therefore foreign reliable sources should be used. That is a perfectly respectable argument that follows guidance. All you needed to do to complete that argument is to present a reliable foreign source that gives usage as you propose, cite it in the article with a translation of the relevant sentence or two from the source, on this talk page, as a courtesy to those editors who can not read the foreign language. --
PBS (
talk)
09:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following
WikiProjects:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ice Hockey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
ice hockey on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ice HockeyWikipedia:WikiProject Ice HockeyTemplate:WikiProject Ice HockeyIce Hockey articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Czech Republic, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Czech Republic on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Czech RepublicWikipedia:WikiProject Czech RepublicTemplate:WikiProject Czech RepublicCzech Republic articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
02:43, 1 May 2012 In ictu oculi m . . (In ictu oculi moved page Ondrej Latal to Ondřej Látal: [no complex history], per BLP accuracy, sources in article, MOS consistency with other Ondřejs and other Látals)
Amusingly, the RM posted just minutes before this one was for the
Chloë Moretz article to be renamed to "Chloë Grace Moretz". Even 100% "English" names sometimes have diacritics, but I don't recall seeing any requested moves to remove diacritics from such names, only for names of "foreign" persons. Would you propose a diacritic-less rename for Chloë (Moretz or
Sevigny)? (I'm asking in all seriousness) --
P.T. Aufrette (
talk)
00:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)reply
I do not know what GoodDay would propose but I would suggest that the AT policy and naming conventions were followed and that article titles are based on usage in reliable English language sources, rather than editorial likes and dislikes. --
PBS (
talk)
09:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Support, diacritics provide important pronunciation information for those familiar with a language and do not hinder reading or understanding for those who choose to ignore them. Although some English sources have omitted diacritics due to typographical or display constraints, scholarly and encyclopedic sources (which is what Wikipedia aspires to be) are far more likely to include them. Modern computers universally support display of European-language diacritics, eg, at least the ones in
WGL-4 or similar subsets. Wikipedia should render names with diacritics accurately. --
P.T. Aufrette (
talk)
00:21, 2 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Removing diacritics is a mistake and not how you properly translate a name to English. As such the diacritics are more accurate than removing them incorrectly would be. Per commonname inaccurate names are not used even if they are more commonly used in reliable sources. -
DJSasso (
talk)
19:10, 2 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Removing diacritics doesn't make a name english, it makes it misspelt. PBS, which bit of "more accurate name" is causing you problems? It's three unambiguous words.
bobrayner (
talk)
23:13, 2 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Perhaps we should look at this website
http://www.eliteprospects.com/team.php?team=164&year0=2011&status=stats which is being held up as a "reliable source" for spelling of BLP names. Note that it is actually a Swedish website and as such allows full Scandinavian names, (see Martin Møller among "contributors" r/h panel) but does not allow full Czech names (Jiří Svašek "contributors" becomes Jiri Svasek). Yet when we go to
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/256525/Dominik-Hasek we find Dominik Hašek Dominik Hašek, (born Jan. 29, 1965, Pardubice, Czech....
The link PBS gives say clearly "Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, assuming English sources of equal quality and relevance are available." In the case of
Dominik Hašek there is a reliable English source. In the case of given name
Ondřejs and surname
Látals there are reliable English sources. In the case of search-string Ondřej+Látal there are no reliable English sources on this search string. (given that www.eliteprospects.com the source in the article favours Swedish diacritics but doesn't allow Czech ones). In which case we follow "German names for German politicians" and the prime guideline of
WP:BLP to "get the article right." Leaving a living person's name mispelled because the Swedish owners of a sports (betting?) website don't extend the same courtesy to Czechs as Scandinavians may or may not be verging into
WP:Wikilawyering, I don't know, but it doesn't help acheive
wikt:accuracy by the normal meaning of the word. In answer to PBS' 2006 question "Is this an English Wikipedia or an international one?", the answer is the same now as then: "It's an encyclopedic one." so 99% of en.wp BLPs (and 211x non-hockey "Ondřej" BLPs), are on a par with the MOS of
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/256525/Dominik-Hasek and not the MOS of www.eliteprospects.com.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
23:48, 2 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Iio, it has been explained to you several times, that dragging up arguments from prior to June 2008 when what is now called the
article titles polisy, does not help elucidate the issues as prior to June 2008 the article titles policy was based on usage in all sources not just reliable ones. Your usage of selective quotes from polices and guidelines to push for a style of name you prefer instead of following the general advise as given, is less than helpful: for example your quoting of a very selective part of
WP:CRITERIA (part of
WP:AT) and totally ignoring
WP:UE another part of the same policy. One of the major problems with you selective use of consistency, is that if an article such as this is spelt "Latal" that is no reason in another article about another person called "Stanislav Látal" to be moved to "Stanislav Latal" simply because it is consistent with "Ondrej Latal". Each title should be decided by looking at the reliable English language sources for that subject, not on a flawed concept of consistency for consistency sake or worse a use of consistency to push an editorial point of view against usage in reliable English language sources.
So what your argument boils down to here is that there are no reliable English language sources for this man, therefore foreign reliable sources should be used. That is a perfectly respectable argument that follows guidance. All you needed to do to complete that argument is to present a reliable foreign source that gives usage as you propose, cite it in the article with a translation of the relevant sentence or two from the source, on this talk page, as a courtesy to those editors who can not read the foreign language. --
PBS (
talk)
09:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.