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This is a spinoff of the "History clarifications" discussion, where Timtempleton wrote that I "added four paragraphs of an incident involving Wyman to their services section as Oliver Wyman#2015 Eskom-McKinsey scandal. You called it "2015 Eskom-McKinsey scandal" - why not put something in the Eskom or McKinsey articles instead, or in addition to? Why just add info to the Oliver Wyman article, when they were a consultant, and not a major part of the incident? Four paragraphs about this here violates WP:UNDUE. Why not fork a new article if you think it was such an important event? And it doesn't belong in the services section - it should be in the history or a new section called notable engagements. Instead, someone looking up their services section will see that it involves scandal."
My answers to the above questions are as follows:
(1) The Eskom and McKinsey articles both already have information about this scandal- see [ [1]] and [ [2]]. So there was no need to add information there.
(2) Oliver Wyman is a major part of their incident- they wrote the report that ultimately incriminated McKinsey and were credited by South African government officials and international media organizations [ [3]] [ [4]] They were also propositioned by Trillian. [ [5]]
(3) I found the situation complex and difficult to describe in less than four paragraphs. The key events are: OW being propositioned to by Trillian and refusing, OW being commissioned to investigate the McKinsey contract, the South African government forcing handover of the Wyman report, and charges being filled on the basis of said report. If you're able to describe these events more concisely you are welcome to edit. Forking a four-paragraph article seems rather silly, especially since the paragraphs are <5 sentences. It would be more of a stub than an article by itself.
(4) I believe the 'History' section is about the history of Oliver Wyman as an organization (e.g. corporate/executive decisions, reorgs, acquisitions, mergers, etc) and 'Services' is about individual notable projects. I view 'Services' as functionally the same as 'Notable Engagements', so if you prefer the name 'Notable Engagements' you are also welcome to edit and change that.
(5) I don't want to give the impression that Oliver Wyman was involved in the scandal (obviously they didn't do anything wrong, just wrote a report), but the report is about a scandal. I called this section Eskom-McKinsey scandal because that's how it is referred to in the media. [ [6]] It is also sometimes called the Trillian-Eskom-McKinsey scandal, or just the 'corruption scandal' when the context is clear. Again, if you have an idea (for a better name that doesn't include the word scandal while accurately describing what the Wyman report was about) and a source, you are welcome to edit. Pereneph ( talk) 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
This is a spinoff of the "History clarifications" discussion, where Timtempleton claimed I "created the entire controversy section full of your additions, contrary to WP:STRUCTURE. That's not right and will have to be cleaned up." I created the controversy section after Timtempleton accused me of having an external relationship with Oliver Wyman.[ [7]] and told me that "editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted."
I had previous created a "Services" section which documented both positive and negative work by the firm, but after hearing these accusations, I became concerned that the article had a positive bias. I therefore created a controversy section, in line with the articles of other consulting companies such as Boston Consulting Group [ [8]]. However, Timtempleton has now accused me of "painting the company in a negative light". I have temporarily reverted the article to its previous "Services" structure, and am opening a discussion as to whether negative work belongs under a general "Services" section, a specific "Controversy" section, or another section entirely. Pereneph ( talk) 21:56, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
This is a spinoff of the "History clarifications" discussion, where Timtempleton claimed I "put in something from 1983, before Oliver Wyman even existed, and made it look like it was an Oliver Wyman incident." I believe Oliver Wyman history goes back to at least 1970, as documented on their corporate website [ [9]] Some sources even put the founding year of Temple, Barker & Sloane as 1969 [ [10]] Pereneph ( talk) 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Recently the bulk of this article's history section was deleted and moved to either Mercer (consulting) or the Marsh & McLennan pages, seemingly arbitrarily and in contradiction to the sources cited. I've restored it for a few separate reasons:
1 - I wasn't able to find any evidence that Temple, Barker & Sloane (TBS) was a part of Mercer Consulting. It's not mentioned on Mercer's history page but is mentioned on Oliver Wyman's. This indicates to me that the TBS section should be on the Oliver Wyman page (and probably removed from the Mercer Consulting page)
2 - As mentioned in the Washington Post source, Strategic Planning Associates was not integrated with Marsh & McLennan (MMC) as a whole but rather specifically with its consulting arm. Tom Wylatt, the managing director of consulting at MMC, is quoted as saying that the merger combined TBS and SPA. It makes no sense to move the TBS section to one Wikipedia page, and the SPA section to another- this only splits up information about the merger and makes it harder to find on Wikipedia.
3 - "Mercer Delta Consulting" was not part of "Mercer Consulting". I put the names in quotes for clarity. "Mercer Delta Consulting" was acquired in 2000 by "Mercer Consulting Group" led by Peter Coster ( https://www.hrhub.com/doc/mercer-consulting-group-plans-acquisition-of-0001). In 2005, "Mercer Consulting Group" was split into two business areas, one that was considered "core" human resources consulting which was run by Brian Storms and another that consisted of 5 "speciality" management consulting groups run by David Morrison (1. Mercer Strategy & Operations, 2. Mercer Oliver Wyman, 3. Merger Delta Consulting, 4. Lippincott, 5. NERA Economic Consulting). Storms' group, with its focus on HR, is Mercer Consulting today. Morrison's group (a.k.a. Mercer Speciality Consulting Group), with its focus on management, is Oliver Wyman today. They are not interchangeable - see MMC press releases on the split in 2005, and the distinct "Mercer Specialty Consulting Group" in 2006.
4 - Finally, regardless of your understanding of MMC's corporate structure, there's no reason to delete the majority of content in the history section here. If you believe some information also belongs on the Mercer Consulting or MMC pages, you can add it to those pages without deleting the information on the Oliver Wyman (OW) page. All of the firms mentioned here are listed on OW's history website, that's a primary source for their significance to OW.
Pereneph ( talk) 09:18, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
In 1987, William M. Mercer Inc. acquired the consultancy Temple, Barker & Sloane. [1]
In 1989, Washington, DC-based international management consulting firm Strategic Planning Associates merged with William M. Mercer Inc parent Marsh & McLennan. [2]
In 2000, William M. Mercer Inc. acquired Delta Consulting Group for its organizational development and change management expertise. [3]
References
TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 16:44, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Pereneph ( talk) 07:49, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Are those included in Notable alumni section truly notable? Furthermore, I would suggest the removal of the Office section which I find of questionable relevance to the article.--- Now wiki ( talk) 19:20, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected links on Oliver Wyman which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
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From your friendly hard working bot.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:21, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
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I have just modified 2 external links on Oliver Wyman. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Hi – I am an employee representative of Oliver Wyman.
I would like to propose an amendment to the short description of Oliver Wyman as “an American management consulting firm”. While the firm was founded in the US and is headquartered there, this description does not accurately reflect the business’s international footprint.
The short description on this page previously described Oliver Wyman as an “international management consulting firm” until 23 August 2020, when it was changed to “US” by User:Onel5969. This in turn was changed to “American” on 4 July 2022 by User:Felida97.
Neither of these descriptions are accurate. Oliver Wyman operates in 32 countries around the world (SEC filing, February 2022). The firm’s non-US work is frequently covered by international press ( Financial Times January 2023). And “American” is not the description typically used by media outlets from around the world when writing about Oliver Wyman. For example:
“Global management consultancy Oliver Wyman” – Reuters (September 2022)
“Consultant Oliver Wyman” – South China Morning Post (January 2023) “Management consulting firm Oliver Wyman” – Wall Street Journal (January 2023)
“Consulting firm Oliver Wyman” – Australian Financial Review (May 2022
“Global management consultancy Oliver Wyman” – Al Arabiya (February 2022)
Please let me know what you think of this proposed change.
168.168.43.230 (
talk) 10:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 16 October 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep (non admin closure). |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is a spinoff of the "History clarifications" discussion, where Timtempleton wrote that I "added four paragraphs of an incident involving Wyman to their services section as Oliver Wyman#2015 Eskom-McKinsey scandal. You called it "2015 Eskom-McKinsey scandal" - why not put something in the Eskom or McKinsey articles instead, or in addition to? Why just add info to the Oliver Wyman article, when they were a consultant, and not a major part of the incident? Four paragraphs about this here violates WP:UNDUE. Why not fork a new article if you think it was such an important event? And it doesn't belong in the services section - it should be in the history or a new section called notable engagements. Instead, someone looking up their services section will see that it involves scandal."
My answers to the above questions are as follows:
(1) The Eskom and McKinsey articles both already have information about this scandal- see [ [1]] and [ [2]]. So there was no need to add information there.
(2) Oliver Wyman is a major part of their incident- they wrote the report that ultimately incriminated McKinsey and were credited by South African government officials and international media organizations [ [3]] [ [4]] They were also propositioned by Trillian. [ [5]]
(3) I found the situation complex and difficult to describe in less than four paragraphs. The key events are: OW being propositioned to by Trillian and refusing, OW being commissioned to investigate the McKinsey contract, the South African government forcing handover of the Wyman report, and charges being filled on the basis of said report. If you're able to describe these events more concisely you are welcome to edit. Forking a four-paragraph article seems rather silly, especially since the paragraphs are <5 sentences. It would be more of a stub than an article by itself.
(4) I believe the 'History' section is about the history of Oliver Wyman as an organization (e.g. corporate/executive decisions, reorgs, acquisitions, mergers, etc) and 'Services' is about individual notable projects. I view 'Services' as functionally the same as 'Notable Engagements', so if you prefer the name 'Notable Engagements' you are also welcome to edit and change that.
(5) I don't want to give the impression that Oliver Wyman was involved in the scandal (obviously they didn't do anything wrong, just wrote a report), but the report is about a scandal. I called this section Eskom-McKinsey scandal because that's how it is referred to in the media. [ [6]] It is also sometimes called the Trillian-Eskom-McKinsey scandal, or just the 'corruption scandal' when the context is clear. Again, if you have an idea (for a better name that doesn't include the word scandal while accurately describing what the Wyman report was about) and a source, you are welcome to edit. Pereneph ( talk) 21:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
This is a spinoff of the "History clarifications" discussion, where Timtempleton claimed I "created the entire controversy section full of your additions, contrary to WP:STRUCTURE. That's not right and will have to be cleaned up." I created the controversy section after Timtempleton accused me of having an external relationship with Oliver Wyman.[ [7]] and told me that "editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted."
I had previous created a "Services" section which documented both positive and negative work by the firm, but after hearing these accusations, I became concerned that the article had a positive bias. I therefore created a controversy section, in line with the articles of other consulting companies such as Boston Consulting Group [ [8]]. However, Timtempleton has now accused me of "painting the company in a negative light". I have temporarily reverted the article to its previous "Services" structure, and am opening a discussion as to whether negative work belongs under a general "Services" section, a specific "Controversy" section, or another section entirely. Pereneph ( talk) 21:56, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
This is a spinoff of the "History clarifications" discussion, where Timtempleton claimed I "put in something from 1983, before Oliver Wyman even existed, and made it look like it was an Oliver Wyman incident." I believe Oliver Wyman history goes back to at least 1970, as documented on their corporate website [ [9]] Some sources even put the founding year of Temple, Barker & Sloane as 1969 [ [10]] Pereneph ( talk) 21:30, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Recently the bulk of this article's history section was deleted and moved to either Mercer (consulting) or the Marsh & McLennan pages, seemingly arbitrarily and in contradiction to the sources cited. I've restored it for a few separate reasons:
1 - I wasn't able to find any evidence that Temple, Barker & Sloane (TBS) was a part of Mercer Consulting. It's not mentioned on Mercer's history page but is mentioned on Oliver Wyman's. This indicates to me that the TBS section should be on the Oliver Wyman page (and probably removed from the Mercer Consulting page)
2 - As mentioned in the Washington Post source, Strategic Planning Associates was not integrated with Marsh & McLennan (MMC) as a whole but rather specifically with its consulting arm. Tom Wylatt, the managing director of consulting at MMC, is quoted as saying that the merger combined TBS and SPA. It makes no sense to move the TBS section to one Wikipedia page, and the SPA section to another- this only splits up information about the merger and makes it harder to find on Wikipedia.
3 - "Mercer Delta Consulting" was not part of "Mercer Consulting". I put the names in quotes for clarity. "Mercer Delta Consulting" was acquired in 2000 by "Mercer Consulting Group" led by Peter Coster ( https://www.hrhub.com/doc/mercer-consulting-group-plans-acquisition-of-0001). In 2005, "Mercer Consulting Group" was split into two business areas, one that was considered "core" human resources consulting which was run by Brian Storms and another that consisted of 5 "speciality" management consulting groups run by David Morrison (1. Mercer Strategy & Operations, 2. Mercer Oliver Wyman, 3. Merger Delta Consulting, 4. Lippincott, 5. NERA Economic Consulting). Storms' group, with its focus on HR, is Mercer Consulting today. Morrison's group (a.k.a. Mercer Speciality Consulting Group), with its focus on management, is Oliver Wyman today. They are not interchangeable - see MMC press releases on the split in 2005, and the distinct "Mercer Specialty Consulting Group" in 2006.
4 - Finally, regardless of your understanding of MMC's corporate structure, there's no reason to delete the majority of content in the history section here. If you believe some information also belongs on the Mercer Consulting or MMC pages, you can add it to those pages without deleting the information on the Oliver Wyman (OW) page. All of the firms mentioned here are listed on OW's history website, that's a primary source for their significance to OW.
Pereneph ( talk) 09:18, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
In 1987, William M. Mercer Inc. acquired the consultancy Temple, Barker & Sloane. [1]
In 1989, Washington, DC-based international management consulting firm Strategic Planning Associates merged with William M. Mercer Inc parent Marsh & McLennan. [2]
In 2000, William M. Mercer Inc. acquired Delta Consulting Group for its organizational development and change management expertise. [3]
References
TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 16:44, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Pereneph ( talk) 07:49, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Are those included in Notable alumni section truly notable? Furthermore, I would suggest the removal of the Office section which I find of questionable relevance to the article.--- Now wiki ( talk) 19:20, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected links on Oliver Wyman which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
\btspllc\.com\b
on the local blacklistIf you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact User:Cyberpower678 and ask him to program me with more info.
From your friendly hard working bot.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:21, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Oliver Wyman. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:37, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
Hi – I am an employee representative of Oliver Wyman.
I would like to propose an amendment to the short description of Oliver Wyman as “an American management consulting firm”. While the firm was founded in the US and is headquartered there, this description does not accurately reflect the business’s international footprint.
The short description on this page previously described Oliver Wyman as an “international management consulting firm” until 23 August 2020, when it was changed to “US” by User:Onel5969. This in turn was changed to “American” on 4 July 2022 by User:Felida97.
Neither of these descriptions are accurate. Oliver Wyman operates in 32 countries around the world (SEC filing, February 2022). The firm’s non-US work is frequently covered by international press ( Financial Times January 2023). And “American” is not the description typically used by media outlets from around the world when writing about Oliver Wyman. For example:
“Global management consultancy Oliver Wyman” – Reuters (September 2022)
“Consultant Oliver Wyman” – South China Morning Post (January 2023) “Management consulting firm Oliver Wyman” – Wall Street Journal (January 2023)
“Consulting firm Oliver Wyman” – Australian Financial Review (May 2022
“Global management consultancy Oliver Wyman” – Al Arabiya (February 2022)
Please let me know what you think of this proposed change.
168.168.43.230 (
talk) 10:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)