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This section was removed without explaination so I am restoring it. If you don't think it belongs at least have the guts and decency to tell me why. H57 —Preceding unsigned comment added by H57 ( talk • contribs) 02:38, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I just added a new photo I took of Ollie last week. Matt Sanchez ( talk) 08:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the article fails to mention the key words to the funding of the arms trade... Colombian drugs cartels cocaine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.24.42.212 ( talk) 05:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
You'll need to provide a source for that statement, and you'll probably need to log on. Matt Sanchez ( talk) 08:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
This article is a good one, but I am concerned that it does not mention in more detail his relationships with known drug runners which he had contact with such as Norieaga. Norieaga was involved with the contra drug money supply system the govenment had going on. Which brings me to another point. Where is all of the drug scandle section which doesn't seem to be on the page. Mabye I'm not looking in the right places but the only mention of it is on the Iran-Contra link. -Nate
The article refers to Noriega as a druglord in the context of North's 1986 communications with him. North's communications with Noriega at that point were in the context of Noriega being President of Panama at the time. The wording of this raises questions as to the objectivity of this portion of the article since the intent is clearly to link North's actions with the illicit trade of narcotics. Suggest changing text from 'druglord' to 'Panamanian President'.
Almost every military official's Wiki page has mention of his medals earned. What medals or awards did Oliver North win for his military service?
Medals are earned, NOT won. He earned his Silver Star during combat service in Viet Nam, NOT during the Viet Nam war. Engineer1234 18:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
If we are going to get pernickety i assume the war you are referring to is the Vietnam war, not the Viet Nam war...unless this is another covert war we are not aware of?Mark 139.184.222.94 ( talk) 23:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Senator Warner endorsed Marshall Coleman, a Republican who ran as an independent that year NOT Senator Robb. Pimpalicious
Oliver North Medals include: the Silver Star (for conspicuous gallantry), the Bronze Star (for Valor), and two Purple Hearts (for wounds received in combat)
Colonel North was tried in 1988 in relation to his activities while at the National Security Council, and convicted of three charges: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents. He was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Gerhard A. Gesell on July 5, 1989, to a three-year suspended prison term, two years probation, $150,000 in fines and 1,200 hours community service.
The first paragraph is OK, although specifying the sentence of an innocent person seems redundant. He didn't serve any sentence at all. The second paragraph reads like it was translated by Altavista from the original Thai. I cannot understand what it means and I doubt others do. The DoJ charged him with sixteen different offenses and he was acquitted of all them. Yes he was convicted on three counts and a retrial was ordered. The retrial came and the charges were dismissed. If you can think of a better way of putting it that's fine. But the bottom line is the article when I stumbled on it painted him as a convict, when in fact he is innocent of all those charges, as it is defined in our system. The Ollie North article is actually a perfect example of the cancer eating at Wikipedia. Have a look at the article before my edits, is that really what you want Wikipedia to be?
Ollieplatt 10:18, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Precise?
It is not precise at all, it is vague.
Your POV about why he was acquitted is interesting but can it be expressed in NPOV terms in the article?
He is innocent. It is a fact. He was not proven guilty and is therefore innocent, I chose the word deliberately.
I won't respond to your personal attack although suggest you look in the mirror.
I don't think you're right about him confessing on television but have an open mind about it.
The article falsely painted him as a criminal, ignored his recent success and only referred to him by his surname. That is the Wikipedia you seem to want. That is the cancer eating away at Wikipedia, blatant, unremitting extreme left-wing partisanship.
BTW, I think you mean "free rein" rather than "free reign", spell your cliches carefully. And in light of the trolling of every single edit my proud alliance of sockpuppets and I have made (and even sockpuppets that are not me but are SUSPECTED by your starchamber) to say I have a "free rein" is truly amusing. By having a different view to the Wikipedia "community", I am guilty of "disrupting" it. I find this rather jarring.
I am concerned that while you espouse liberalism, you are in fact authoritarian. You like cliches, so I'll give you another one: "be the change you seek."
Ollieplatt 10:50, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
RadicalSubversiv E 06:44, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Radical, what happened was that the judge ordered to rehear the charges dismissed them on the basis there was not sufficient evidence. He was declared "not guilty" (as all defendants in that situation are) and that was the end of it. May be Fred or an attorney or someone more familiar with this should decide how best to put it. My clear understanding is that all charges were dismissed and that he was "not guilty."
Ollieplatt 09:26, 21 Jan 2005
I can't document this, but a coworker tells me his middle name is Lawrence. If anyone has a source for that, it's be good to be rigorous about it. grendel| khan 13:35, 2005 Mar 3 (UTC)
Can people please stop reverting back to the version that has "Oliver North testifies before Congress and becomes a national hero." It's getting annoying, as it's obvious, flagrant POV. -- Holdek 06:43, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
As longtime lurker I am familiar with this dispute, although it is first change. I don't agree North was convicted validly and then escaped on a technicality. Just wrong. Winston88 04:17, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The claim that North is a national hero is clearly PoV. The whine that it's all these 'liberals' who are against you and North is familiar and irrelevant. We're concerned with facts here, not with party politics. And many of us aren't from the U.S., so ad hominem stuff about the ACLU, etc., sails straight by us. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 17:22, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you're not from US, then please refrain from pronouncements about North's legal status in US. The facts, not the politics, should be reported impartially and without favor. So Mel, stop the smell around here and leave the article as is. Your reverts are perverts. Ger6 17:37, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now that I realize you as the same person as Burgess and Philby, the Soviet agents, your childish attempts at insult are no longer puzzling. Ger6 18:17, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Feuding over this now very minor figure is rather boring if you ask me but let's not have the article ruined by liberals and conservatives and their bias. Agree with those concerned about the use of the word "technicality", very much in the eye of the beholder. Chucky45 19:16, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ger, your repeated edits are not in good faith. At least, it's hard to view them as such when you resort to petty name-calling. Additionally, I'd have to say I agree that "appeal" is more accurate than "technicality." Further, perhaps this page is a good nominee for at least temporary protection? -- Holdek 00:08, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
The article Oliver North is so riddled with liberal bias that it could have been written by John Kerry.
The charges against North relating to his public service during the Reagan administration were clearly politically motivated. They were thrown out of court. Even in the discredited first trial, he was only convicted of three counts of sixteen. So let's record the fact that he was prosecuted, initially convicted on a few minor counts and even those convictions were vacated due to gross and serious procedural defects in the case brought against him. End result he is as innocent a man as you and I (and much more so than pardoned Democrat donor and corporate scum bag Marc Rich and perjurer Bill Clinton and WalMart board member the Hillary.
Hairamerica 23:16, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A concurrence: the article on LtCol North is off the radar screen regarding neutrality. Not ONE single entry regarding his life prior to 1986 (other than medals earned NOT won) and nothing of his family. This article appears to have been written by the same author who wrote the puff piece on Ted Kennedy. Speaking of guilt. In addition, his retirement pension couldn't be revoked because of his post retirement legal problems (later resolved) which is why the less than honorable Pat Schroeder was unsuccessful in her efforts. Engineer1234 18:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
For the record, around 20 sockpuppets have been blocked indefinitely since March 11 in connection with this article, specifically in connection with the introduction. All others making the same pattern of edits, unless they're editors with regular contributions histories, will be blocked indefinitely from now on, with no further warnings, and without waiting for a 3RR violation. Hope that's clear. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:16, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't kept track, so I don't know who user:Borderguard is a sockpuppet of, but he clearly is of someone. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 19:34, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
All that was wrong with the article is neatly summarized by the disgraceful libel in the "political legacy" section which asserts, falsely, repeatedly, that Colonel North is a criminal. Get a grip. Or stop holding. Groucholenin 03:31, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm un-indenting before we run out of page. It's just that the definition of a criminal is someone who has been convicted of a crime (where the conviction has not been overturned). Confessing to a crime doesn't make a person a criminal. As an encyclopedia, we can't redefine legal terms. What we can do is quote North's specific confession; e.g. if he said: "I admit that I knowingly violated Law X," we can quote that, but I doubt he ever said it that explicitly (though I don't know). I have no POV on this issue, by the way, just to make that clear, as I know this article's been under attack. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:29, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
Holdek, if you're saying he admitted to breaking the law, you would need to quote him saying: "I broke the law," with a citation. If he admitted to lying to Congress, then that's what the article should say, again with a citation. It would be original research to analyse his statement. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:58, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
I've reinserted the references to criminality, given that there's no dispute about them. The consensus might be that they should be removed again, in which case fine — but I'm a bit worried that the sockpuppets shouldn't have too much of an effect on the contents of the article. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:51, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This article is even worse than the biased piece on George Bush. There have been edit wars on this article by North supporters and defenders, can someone step up and write a new article that is accurate and fair.
Like the Bush article, this is shrill and misleading. It judges North guilty of criminal conduct when no court was willing to do so. I don't know much about Iran-Contra but I don't think those above know much either. "Really, he's a criminal" comment above by "SlimVirgin" (I'd like to meet such a female), is rather revealing of the bias and partisanship here.
Lagavulin 20:01, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This Article is Weak on Citations and Heavy on Accusations: This is irresponsible and the string of accusations with few supporting citations of any merit suggest a heavy bias and political agenda on the part of some of the writers.
Sean7phil ( talk) 08:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
And note there are NOT over a dozen references to criminality, indictments, convictions yada yada.
I have no issue with the Encarta characterization of events, it seemed perfectly fair. It has a lot of detail that this trash article doesn't have about what happened and why. What it doesn't do is specify a sentence he never served because - in legal terms - he was never convicted.
Why should a Bill Gates owned commercial article be at one standard and Wikipedia which I believe is a vastly superior product 99% of the time be at such a lower standard just because it's North. The answer is clear enough, those responsible have let their hatred of North shine through. I would have no problem with the above, it is considerably better than the current article which is factually wrong, riddled with bias and beneath the high standards I expect as a frequent Wikipedia user. Lagavulin 23:48, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what the polite thing to do with my Totally Disputed tag, but as the person who initiated it, I am certainly not happy with the article as it currently stands, so until these issues are resolved I would appreciate it remaining. Is that OK? Lagavulin 00:06, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Excuse me, that's not what I said. I said in a dozen places his criminality is implied or asserted, not the word criminal. So read what I say before passing judgement.
His "sentence" has no place in the article given his conviction was vacated. That's a start.
Lagavulin 00:23, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Further the treatment of his role at the National Security Council combating terrorism, and those who fund it, seems particularly partial. American marines I think were targeted at that Berlin nightclub and an American military response against Libya was not that "controversial" at all, as I recall. My understanding was that it reminded Gaddafi of the consequences of being involved in terrorism against American targets. I doubt any senior democrat opposed the action, so where is this controversy?
Lagavulin 00:27, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The entire section on Iran Contra is quite outrageous with emotive words like channeling profits and such. Can't we just have the facts without the constant editorial. It's just boring. To one way of thinking, the facts speak louder own their own.
Lagavulin 00:29, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree the Later Life and Career section should be much more detailed, especially about his Senate campaign.
The political legacy part with its assertions of acting "above the law" outside the law and other assertions of criminality are just unfit to be in the article. It establishes a straw defense of North and then not surprisingly blows it down. Can someone press the delete button on this trash?
If I kept reading, no doubt I'd find more. It's just bad. Lagavulin 00:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am very puzzled and disturbed by the Wikipedia conviction of Oliver North. Holdek and presumably others have unilaterally decided he's a criminal, or that he's "above the law", "flouting the law", "breaking the law" or whichever formulation they want.
North was charged with sixteen Iran-Contra offenses. He was acquitted of thirteen. And convicted of three on the basis of his own testimony for which he'd received immunity. Now John Gotti gets better treatment than that.
So a retrial was ordered. And then reviewing the evidence, the prosecution decided to withdraw all charges against him.
Now call me a stickler but that makes him no more a criminal than you and I (I'm making an assumption here of course!).
So can we stop throwing around the labels in their various formulations implying North's criminality. It's just mindless, partisan stuff that should go in blogs not in an encyclopedia article.
And until you can face up to your responsibilities Holdek, this article will remain tagged as the biased, factually wrong trash that it is. Lagavulin 00:55, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is very interesting indeed to compare this article with the more balanced treatment of OJ Simpson, a person we have all probably come to believe "did it." I always feel guilty for thinking that because in the best legal system invented so far, he was acquitted. But read the article, it does the whole OJ saga justice, without the invective, innuendo or inferences.
Lagavulin 00:58, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sure enough the article on Poindexter is equally disgraceful. What is it about Iran-Contra that gets everyone so irrational. Lagavulin 01:18, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hey Lagavulin are you for real? This is absurd. North testified in Congress that he broke the law. That he lied to Congress, lied to the American people, about things that had been published in papers around the world. That he implemented policies that included selling weapons to known terrorists in order to violate federal law (which prevented funding the Contras). He even revealed that he was aware that much Contra funding came from illegal drugs. He did not confess these things under any kind of duress, but rather during televised hearings in front of the Congress and the American people. That his testimony had received immunity is irrelevant -- you compare him to Gotti but does anyone doubt that Gotti is a criminal? What do you think should be said about North; that he is just a talk radio blowhard, with nothing interesting of note about his (proud!) involvement in Iran/Contra? -- csloat 09:53, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Based on the fact that you registered today, and have slapped the POV and Factual Innacuracy marker on many articles on conservative political figures, often with a notice on the talk page to the effect of "This article is trash" or "Totally disputed," I'm going to go ahead and remove the marker from this article until it can be established if you are a sockpuppet or not. I hope you understand that we've had a problem with this lately. -- Holdek (talk) 01:23, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
Having read what one is, I certainly am not a sockpuppet, so I welcome you establishing it at your convenience, I have been a Wikipedia regular user for over a year in fact and I reject your proposal of removing the tag. Please do not remove it again. I don't really care whether this article has been a battleground of knuckleheads of left and right, it is riddled with error and bias and will remain tagged that way until a serious discussion of the issues is held and experienced authors without ideological baggage get involved. The tag stays while the bias does. I hope you understand that. Lagavulin 01:28, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Tag whatever you like, I tag it shit. It is pure shit. The moment it is unprotected, I shall return to ensure this American hero is presented truthfully and not the liberal lies we are getting. BriteHumer 10:09, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
BriteHumer is now blocked for image vandalism. Mgm| (talk) 10:30, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
Just as the article is trash as it is, it is certainly not improved by North fanatics unilaterally imposing provocative and biased changes of their own. In the Sharon article, someone wisely suggested a Request for Comment process to remedy its worst excesses. Is that a way of moving forward with this? Either way, I am very discomfited by this article remaining untagged as if it represents the best and unbiased of Wikipedia. It is neither, it's poorly written, sketchy and very partisan. Lagavulin 21:00, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Lagavulin, you're more than welcome to expand the article, bearing in mind that it must conform with Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and should be written in a factual, disinterested tone. If you and the others can agree there will be reverting, I'll be happy to unprotect (though if the sockpuppets return, the protection may have to). SlimVirgin (talk) 08:13, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
Hi Slim, I'll do my best but my knowledge of North and Poindexter is very limited and I think others better able to write something neutral and factual. I believe the article should be changed substantially, removing the defamatory comments tagging North a criminal (or whichever artful formulation "above the law" "flout the law" etc) and probably then protected from the unfortunate vandalizing. I don't really understand the distinction between a sockpuppet, vandals and others (is Holdek one?) but I am optimistic that if attention is drawn to this article's many deficiencies then it will be improved by someone. Lagavulin 22:44, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand the context of the quote I must say, my point is that Wikipedia is not the place where North can be found guilty twenty years on.
So any assertion that North's actions were in any respect illegal is really not appropriate. He was initially accused of sixteen charges and ultimately acquitted of all of them. Yes, he was convicted of three charges initially but that conviction was vacated. Whatever we think of North, he is not a criminal, not in our system anyway and I won't accept any inference that he is. It's not the place of an encyclopedia article to rewrite history the way we wish it would have been. If it was, I would immediately change the Jane Fonda article to include a three year stormy marriage with me around 1970. That would have been fun. Lagavulin 23:31, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And is it appropriate to say Person X says North was angelic and Person Y says North was satanic. I really don't know, but I don't see it adding much. Can't we just have the facts. Lagavulin 23:33, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
May I suggest that the article include the date that North was actually convicted, and perhaps be more specific about when the trial was? It says now that he was tried in 1988 and sentenced July 5, 1989. But the conviction date (May 4, 1989) is missing. And I presume the trial was in 1988 and 1989, not just 1988, as the wording suggests. Kirchherr 03:07, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As a note, I have changed the last section from "opponents disaprove of his criminal acts," to "opponents disapprove of his alleged illegal activities." His conviction was overturned in a federal appeals court due to the immunity granted.
NOTE - Please dont flame me because I just registered, I use Wiki and never felt the need to add anything until reading the discussion here...
First, Oliver North is NOT guilty.
From the article: "he was convicted of three: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents."
Being too young to remember Iran-Contra I came here to find out more and read that sentence and was genuinely surprised, a convicted felon was now a notable war correspondent for the major cable news network, how did this happen? Then I read the "However..." several lines after reading this sentence, having already convicted him in my mind, I was then confused as to why a criminal sentence was detailed even though he never was required to serve it. This is a serious editorial bias in the article and should be changed. What is the argument against changing it?
I didn't know the outcome of Iran-Contra until I came here, figuring (wrongly?) that Wikipedia would be unbiased, and I believe that the article should state prominently that he is NOT guilty, why is this so abhorrent to holdek et al? He IS not guilty why can't that be stated explicitly. I wouldn't feel right rewriting it in myself as I have no experience editing here but I know that this article surprised me by convicting him and then saying, oh just kidding, he actually never went to jail. This is a HUGE, glaring error in the article and I don't know why an experienced contributor won't change it.
Second, well more of the first really, references implying he broke the law.
All from this article as of 5-30-05
1. "North was a figure of great controversy, with supporters enjoying his impassioned defense of his actions, and opponents disapproving of his breaking the law."
2. "North's critics argue that in a democracy and a nation of laws, one man cannot act above the law regardless of how righteous he believes his goals to be."
I read the entire discussion but can't figure out why people want to leave these references in. Someone state explicitly what the arguments are for each. If there was a trial for the criminal offenses stated here and the end result (appeals courts are there for a reason) was that he was not guilty, why are these references still in the article? Also, the reference to OJ being guilty even though he was found not guilty is a bad example as he was found liable in the civil case. As far as I know Ollie North was never convicted of anything. Am I wrong?
(Yes he was initially convicted of three counts, but the counts didn't have anything to do with selling weapons or funding contras. So him stating he did those things when in fact those were not found to be criminal acts even in the overturned first trial should exonerate him and prevent detractors from labeling him as being above the law, breaking the law or any variant thereof.)
Thirdly, why only qualified support for North?
"Some conservatives disapprove of North's actions, and the icon-status given to him by some. It should be noted that Republican Senator John Warner of Virginia endorsed Marshall Coleman, a Republican who ran as an independent, instead of North in the 1994 Virginia Senate race."
John Warner is not conservative but the article implies that Warner is a conservative who disapproves of North because he supported a different candidate. I don't know anything about Virginia politics but him supporting a different candidate can hardly be used as evidence that conservatives disapprove of North.
If you read the article linked to on this page for Warner it states at the bottom "Warner was one of fourteen moderate senators to forge a compromise". How can these two statements both be true?
Conclusion
I'd appreciate someone letting me know where I'm going wrong here or what I'm missing. From what I've seen and read everywhere else, I've always thought Ollie North was a standup ex-marine who continues to do a lot for the guys serving in the military. Being dragged through a congressional hearing for some black-op he was in charge of as an NSC guy hardly makes him 'above the law' precisely because he stood trial and was exonerated. Innocent until proven guilty is troublesome for a lot of people because they just KNOW (insert hated partisan nemesis here) is guilty of (lying, obstruction of justice, war crimes, being spawn of satan, etc). The courts have a responsibility to enforce the Constitution ALL of the time. An encyclopedia should reflect history not the partisan editorializing of the authors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsquared ( talk • contribs) 04:46, 31 May 2005
Re-registering?? I just registered. Sorry, I'm new to the whole editing process, but I made three pretty big points that I believe would give this article a more balanced view. The references to being above the law etc need to be removed. Also, John Warner's support of a different candidate as evidence of 'conservatives' not approving is factually incorrect as John Warner is referred to as a moderate in Wikipedia's own article on him.
Oh, I just re-read your comment, and I realized what you were talking about re-registering, just because I disagree with what you believe to be an NPOV article you think I must be the same person as whoever else was disagreeing with you however long ago that was. I assure you I'm not. In fact it doesn't matter, I just want to have an honest discussion about errors in the article that I believe just as strongly are wrong as you believe they are right.
Here's my attempt at signing, sorry for not doing it in the first post. -- DSquared Noon, PST 05-31-05
Ok, like I said, I knew zero about Iran-contra 2 days ago, so I'm a little fuzzy about which of these were crimes. Encarta (which I have a very dim view of to begin with) says these are violations of the policy of the US. Policy violations aren't in and of themselves crimes are they? And anyways it was my understanding the policy violations were policies set by congress and not by the Reagan administration. So would it be a crime for two branches of government to pursue different policies??? (It'd be easier if I could IM you or something.)
Also, on Warner, he's most definitely not a conservative. Sure he's a republican but there is a broad spectrum of political beliefs that fall under republican these days and Warner's drifting off the reservation to side with McCain and the 12 others to block some of Bush's nominees would put him squarely outside the conservative camp. I'll be honest with you, I'm not familiar with anything else of note that John Warner has done but this compromise is a huge decision and clearly shows he is not a good model for a normal or generic conservative.
Why couldn't a different conservative leader be quoted here as it's all too easy to point to this latest compromise as evidence of Warner's more centrist leanings. Which I guess begs the question, who else doesn't like North from the Right? (I don't know how to do a timestamp, when I hit the button it just puts a bunch of atildes in and I already set my time/date preferences.) -- DSquared 19:54 5-31-05
Ok, clearly this is not a clear-cut issue, I just read Yahoo's article on Iran-Contra (" http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=23706")and it does state:
"Despite the strong opposition of the Reagan administration, the Democratic-controlled Congress enacted legislation, known as the Boland amendments, that prohibited the Defense Dept., the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or any other government agency from providing military aid to the contras from Dec., 1983, to Sept., 1985. The Reagan administration circumvented these limitations by using the National Security Council (NSC), which was not explicitly covered by the law, to supervise covert military aid to the contras. Under Robert McFarlane (1983�85) and John Poindexter (1985�86) the NSC raised private and foreign funds for the contras. This operation was directed by NSC staffer Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North. McFarlane and North were also the central figures in the plan to secretly ship arms to Iran despite a U.S. trade and arms embargo."
And Concludes with: "The Iran-contra affair raised serious questions about the nature and scope of congressional oversight of foreign affairs and the limits of the executive branch."
The facts look to me like: 1: Administration wants to help anti-communist forces in Nicaragua. 2: Opposition in Democratic Congress passes law to prevent administration from sending aid to said forces. 3: Administration uses loophole to circumvent said law (NSC not explicitly covered). 4: Congress finds out -> gets pissed off the administration didn't follow their policy and drags some administration officials into congress to testify about what they did. 5: 5th amendment rights violated so North/Poindexter charges are dropped, Bush 41 pardons everyone else.
please please please tell me which of these facts I have wrong.
Also, I looked up John Warner's conservative rating on the first Conservative Rating Yahoo Result (www.acuratings.org) and found:
Senator Zell MILLER (D) Georgia 2004 Score - 96 Previous Year's Score - 75 Lifetime Score - 73
Senator John WARNER (R) Virginia 2004 Score - 72 Previous Year's Score - 80 Lifetime Score - 81
Senator John McCAIN (R)
Arizona 2004 Score - 72 Previous Year's Score - 75 Lifetime Score - 83
Senator Bill FRIST (R) Tennessee 2004 Score - 92 Previous Year's Score - 90 Lifetime Score - 89
Representative Tom DeLAY (R)
Texas, District 22 2004 Score - 100 Previous Year's Score - 92 Lifetime Score - 96
I picked Zell Miller to show the most conservative Democrat and then Warner and McCain which parallel each other and used Frist and DeLay as baseline conservatives. Nobody refers to McCain as a conservative and Warner has nearly the same rating, so I think it is wrong to label him a conservative. By the way I was genuinely surprised by these results. You can check other rating services but this was linked to from www.conservative.org so it's hard to dismiss offhand.
This is an interesting learnign experience for me by the way. I was born on the day Reagan fired all the Air Traffic controllers so I never experienced any of this politicking although I do remember maps in elementary school with East/West Germany (maybe my kids will remember maps of north/south korea??). Thanks for having patience (how do you put in a timestamp!@%^).
-- DSquared 20:12 5-31-05
The problem with the selling of arms to Iran, is that it was done by the Israelis who came up with the whole scheme to begin with. The Israelis sent the weapons with the understanding that the US would send Israel replacements. We routinely give Israel weapons and although we may have known they would end up in Iranian hands I think that technically it did not violate the embargo. This is also similar to the Cuba trade embargo. Are Americans who travel to Cuba breaking the law, yes, are they criminals, no as they haven't been successfully prosecuted. It is a fine line precisely because the people who do believe that the law is unjust (I personally agree with the embargo) and choose to violate it as it is a POLICY they don't agree with. We will never see the left calling for prosecution of all the Hollywood Celebs who adore Castro and travel there because they don't agree with the policy. Are these people also "above the law"? I believe this is the crux of the argument against using that language when referring to North and his acknowledged dealing surrounding Iran-Contra. It also may be important to note that his actions and the Contras' resulted in an election removing the communists from power. This 'big-picure' result is often lost in the intricacies/technicalities/politicking surrounding Iran-Contra, also American hostages were released although the militants responded by taking more hostages and so they stopped that aspect and focused more on the Contras.
I doubt we can ever know completely what happened as the NSC is a super secretive part of the executive branch and it's unclear whether congress has the authority to dictate foreign policy to the administration. The Supreme Court refusing to hear the case is most probably because they viewed it as a separation of powers argument between the other two branches of government and did not want to get involved (rightly so, I believe).
As for Warner, it is appropriate to mention him supporting a different candidate when mentioning North's Senate run but should be separated from the section talking about Conservative support or lack thereof. We also don't know enough about the politics there, perhaps the opponent was a buddy of Warner's and Warner thought North was an outsider, the point is we don't know. I personally don't know any conservatives who don't like him but I don't know everyone, I live in Bakersfield, California which is Conservative leaning though the city has nearly 300K people we do have a sizeable liberal population mostly imported from nearby (90 miles) Los Angeles. Judging from Blog and Talk Radio sources he appears to be highly respected as a no nonsense soldier's soldier.
He also founded a charity called the Freedom Alliance ( http://www.freedomalliance.org) and works with conservative talk radio host Sean Hannity who is a huge supporter of his and frequently sits in for Hannity. Alan Colmes who is the left half of Hannity and Colmes appears to like North as well. When he does get to take sides of an issue it is often at odds with the administration or the right and his viewpoint is basically a pro-military pro-democracy one with little right wing influence at all. He does refer to his faith but he clearly is no bible-thumper.
An interesting piece of trivia is that North was the President in an episode of Sliders where he seized power or something I don't remember it's been awhile. I will try to find out which one.
-- Dsquared 22:30, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Sliders:
Landing in 1960s Earth, Rembrandt and Wade are mistaken for gods; Arturo and Quinn, for opponents of President Oliver North. The peace movement of the 1960s lives on here--right down to the communes and war protesters in San Francisco. These protestors however, are protesting a protracted war against Soviet controlled North Australia. Ollie North is President.
http://www.brillig.com/sliders/episodes/06.html
This is an interesting aside as Sliders is somewhat of a cult classic and they chose Oliver North to be the poster boy for a protracted WWIII.
-- Dsquared 22:38, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Here's the problem referring to law breaking from wikipedia's iran-contra article:
The Iran-Contra Affair is significant because it brought many questions into public view:
Does the president have unconditional authority to conduct foreign policy? (Can the president approve selling arms to a foreign nation without congressional approval?) What information does the president have to provide to Congress and when should that information be supplied? (Does the president have to tell Congress about foreign policy initiatives?) What authority, if any, does Congress have to oversee functions of the executive branch? (Does funding for foreign policy initiatives have to be approved by Congress? Who defines the entire spending budget and who regulates it? Is the provision of the 1978 Ethics in Government Act that creates the position of independent counsel answering to the Attorney General, constitutional?) What role does the Supreme Court have in deciding conflicts between the legislative branch and executive branch? How much support is America entitled to provide to armed opposition forces seeking to replace governments with ones more sympathetic to the United States? Most, if not all, of the constitutional and ethical questions are still unresolved. On one view, it appears that if the legislative and executive branches do not wish to work together, there are no legal remedies. These are transient issues in that the executive and legislative branches change every few years.
The laws that you say were broken were laws created by a separate branch of government. The executive branch of government had a different policy and found ways to circumvent the laws created by congress in an attempt to dictate foreign policy. That is the key here. Article II gives the President the power to make foreign policy not Congress. All the above questions are admittedly unresolved. That is the question: can North be guilty of committing a crime when he is following a different policy directive than the law was trying to dictate to the administration? There is clearly a question as to whether Congress had the power to make what North did a crime and so implying he acted above the law is false unless the article also mentions that Congress may have acted outside the bounds of the Constitution when instituting said law. I care little whether Encarta says laws were broken, I've always found it to be half-baked on most issues. Yahoo only states the embargo was violated, I'm not saying the embargo wasn't violated as arms clearly ended up in Iran, but I, and others, are raising the argument that the Administration, not Congress is granted the power to make foreign policy so the embargo itself was unconstitutional as the administration supported this effort.
The article should reference this constituional conflict in some way, as it is written it assumes this conflict has been resolved against the administration which is not true according to the referenced wikipedia article. That is an important distinction to make and clearly the way it is written you are assuming that the conflict has been resolved which is factually incorrect.
-- Dsquared 23:20, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
-- Dsquared 21:49, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)== Controversial use of "Controversial" ==
"He also helped plan the controversial 1986 air raids on Libyan military bases in Tripoli and Benghazi in retaliation for the bombing of a Berlin nightclub."
The wikipedia article on Libya discusses the raids but doesn't call them controversial and from a quick check of who actually thought they were controversial turns up only Libyan nationals and far-left outfits. It's a minor point but clearly the word is not warranted here. The UN even sanctioned Libya several years later which shows international confirmation of Libya's known terrorist related activities. Using the word controversial is editorializing on the justification for the raids and I think I'll just go ahead and change it. If you revert it, please give some justification for why wikipedia should take a stand on whether these raids were controversial.
-- Dsquared 23:52, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
There was a great deal of controversy, both regarding the carrying out of the raids in the first place, and regarding the way in which they were carried out. There was also an outcry in this country when our bases were used for the raids, and other European countries refused to allow their airspace to be used by the aircraft involved. If, of course, you consider anybody who disagrees with your view on this to be "far-left", then your comments make sense, but in the real world, they're false. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:09, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Are you sure you read the article? It talks about opposition by other countries, and even notes the opposition of the Queen of England, interestingly enough. Part of what was controversial about it was the civilian casualties and the fact that Qadhafi's daughter was killed. -- Holdek (talk) 15:56, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
Hold on,
Any action that someone somewhere disagrees with is now controversial? So they opposed the raids, was there an "outcry" when the terrorists blew up innocent people? Was it controversial to fight in WWII? I'm pretty sure the German's didn't like the fact that we were bombing them. That the people on the receiving end of the military action and those who sympathize with them disagree doesn't in and of itself make it a controversial action.
Here is a revealing question: Do you two personally believe Libya was involved in terrorist activities? And if so, why is a military response from the American government controversial? Except in the eyes of those who believe any contemporary use of American military power is controversial. The Democratically controlled congress wasn't objecting to it because Americans got killed.
Controversiality is POV dependent. Do you agree or disagree with that statement? Labeling it controversial implies a certain POV, and I was under the impression we want POV neutral articles.
-- Dsquared 21:49, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Who is Trey Stone? Aren't they the South Park guys? ...looking up... Matt Stone and Trey Parker, weird I have little to no idea what youre talking about. My facade? I thought I was being honest. I laboured? oh youre british, now that I understand what your point of view is it's more clear what you are saying.
This sounds an awful lot like a personal attack, so I guess I don't understand the anger here. You say "Controversiality is not "PoV dependent" in a case like this, when we're reporting the controversy rather than creating it." and I must point out that I personally don't think they were controversial and you do because we have differing pov's.... I edited the article to attribute the controversy to people outside the US, that satisfies reporting it without making the the raids controversial by nature. I've been pretty honest from the beginning about my own POV, and I've been genuinely trying to work with holdek, you just throw accusations around....
Controversiality IS POV dependent, that controversy exists is not, but then the fact that controversy exists surrounding any military action over the last fifty years isn't in the least bit remarkable....
-- Dsquared 22:38, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't know where you got the idea I was editing your comments from but because youve been nothing but an asshole to me I'm quitting Wikipedia, if youre the sort of person that is an admin and supposed to be adherent to all the rules then the community is in a pretty sad state and I'd rather not be a part of it.
-- Dsquared 05:19, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Is this referencing Nicaragua? From what I've read they lost an election. I don't think losing an election can constitute an overthrow of a democratically elected government otherwise the US gets overthrow every 4 or 8 years....
My point is it's not accurate to categorize it as an overthrow when it was done through a democratic process.
-- Dsquared 23:48, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
THE FREEDOM ALLIANCE
The quote I inserted is straight from The Freedom Alliance website "Mission Statement." Sean Hannity talks about college scholarships when he's trying to raise money for the Freedom Alliance, but that is a very small part of what they do. Their "Annual Report" on the scholarship effort contains no dollar figure$. In the last year for which they have published financials, they spent several times more on fundraising and other consultants than they did on scholarships.
- Newzhound 2/7/2006
I believe my version for the first paragraph is correct. Arms were not "smuggled through Iran to the Contras," rather, they were sold to Iran with the profits of those sales being diverted to the Contras. Also, it's going to far out to say "Reagan's clandestine smuggling" because as far as I know it's never been proven that Reagan was involved. -- Holdek (talk) 15:57, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
I modifed the text so as to read:
The extra words are intended to address the concerns that Holdek raised about accuracy. Is that a fair comtrpomise? - Willmcw 18:54, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
I agree that it has been proven that 1)North coordinated weapons sales to Iran, and then 2)attempted to give the profits of those sales to the Contras. However, I have yet to see proof that any funds from the arms sales ever got to the Contras. I believe that North attempted to give the profits of those sales to the Contras, but this attempt and all other Iran-Contra dealings done by North were stopped before he could get those funds to the Contras. The documents that I am looking at while considering if [Iranian arms sales funds ever went to the Contras is in:
The Final Report Of The Independent Council For Iran/Contra Matters, Volume I,Investigations and Prosecutions, Lawrence Walsh, Independent Council,August 4, 1993.
The part of this report that I am taking my information from is: Part I, The Underlying Facts 1. [Part I, The Underlying Facts 1 can be found on www.fas.org on:
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/part_i.htm
I ask that the statement in the First Paragraph be changed. I think that it would be a more clear paragraph if the statement, "with the profits being channeled to the Contras in Nicaragua" be changed to some statement like,"North then tried to give [the profits from arms sales with Iran] to the Contras. I do not mean to criticise the article on Oliver North. But I have not seen any documents or reports that have proven that any money from the Iranian arms sales ever went to the Contras. I merely think that the wording of the First Paragraph should be reworded so that the paragraph states that Oliver North attempted to funnel the aforementioned funds to the Contras. From the news reports and documents I have read, I believe that Oliver North intended to give the Iranian arms sales funds to the Contras, but it has yet to be proven that he ever succeeded in getting such funds to the Contras.
Thank You, S. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.131.126.94 ( talk) 01:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC).
The article states Lt. Col. North graduated from the Naval Academy in 1968, yet it also states he was married in 1967.
Either he was married in 1967, against Naval regulations for a midshipman at the Academy, or (more likely), he married in 1968. My guess is that he was married in '68, shortly after graduation. Anyone have confirmation?
Dan myers 12:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey Dan, can you find the exact regulation that says midshipman can't get married. It's a very common practice during war time for students at all of the Service Academies to do so. The reason being is that they usually will get deployed shortly after receiving their commission. If they are married, they get paid for dependants, plus if they deploy to certain regions or for a certain amount of time, they may qualify for seperation or hardship pay if married. Also, according to his books, he's been married since '67.
In one of the sections it says that some dude sent an email to some other dude in 1986. That is highly unlikely.
It's very important to understand the difference between the internet and the web. The internet has been around since the 60's. E-mail is part of the internet that dates back to it's early days. The web is much newer, though has pretty much taken over the internet.
I can not find what his job was during Iran-Contra. A "a key Reagan administration official"? What kind of job is that? He must have had a job title and a job description. Who was his boss, who were his subordinates? What else did hid do? Did he directly report to Reagan? 213.39.190.133 12:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, does anyone know the circumstances under which he left the U.S. military? Was he discharged* prior to his service to the Regan administration? Did he leave the military as a result of the Iran-Contra affair? If so, was his departure voluntary or forced? Does he receive a military pension? (* I'm not sure if the term "discharge" applies to commissioned officers, so I use it loosely here)
LtCol North retired from the US Marine Corps after twenty years service. This is true because the former Congressional rep Pat Schroeder tried (unsuccessfully) to have his retirement pension revoked. He was an operations officer on the National Security Council. He was also a 1968 graduate of the US Naval Academy and was classmates of General Hagee (Commandant of the Marine Corps) as well as James Webb, Senator elect from Virginia. LtCol North was eligible to retire with twenty years service in June 1988. An active duty Marine/soldier/sailor/airman with twenty years qualifying service is entitled to one half base pay as lifetime pension at date of retirement. BTW, I am a career Army officer (LtCol, retirement pending) and have some working knowledge of military matters and military history Engineer1234 18:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
20CenturyFox keeps reverting is to was. Here is the quote: North was a figure of great controversy, with supporters enjoying his impassioned defense of his actions, and opponents disapproving of his breaking the law.
Oliver North is still a figure of controversy, the fact he has a page on on wikipedia attributes his historical legacy as a political figure in the 80s and continues to generate controversy on the Left. He is a conservative commentator on Fox channel, which makes him a target of the Left. He IS a figure of controversy. Does anyone see this way? The previously edit should be reverted. ForrestLane42 23:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42
Primary sources on North and for Iran Contra can be found at the National Security Archive:
Kellen T 07:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the prior photo is inaccurate to the public history. I replaced that photo that is better remembered, and accurate description of what history shows of the congressional hearings on Iran Contra. If you search the historical record , you would find this to be the most common photo available. This photo was downloaded from the national archives and is in the public domain. Bayspatriot Bayspatriot ( talk) 02:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
As was correctly pointed out to me, can I guarantee fair use rationale per Wikipedia guidelines? Since I faced a 48 hr deadline for deletion, I have replaced it with another accurate image of the Iran-Contra hearings. That 2nd image is properly documented. I believe the 2nd image also is a far more accurate view of the Iran-Contra hearings like the 1st image. That 2nd image is from a public website. PBS.org That is a publicly funded. Do I have permission to use that image? Since I am a taxpayer, and this is in the public domain, the answer is Yes! Bayspatriot ( talk) 04:56, 15 December 2007 (UTC) website in the United States of America.
Holdek, thank you for your kind words.
I have been looking for more justification. When I do a google search, I found 1400 different instances where pbs is identified as source material. using google advanced search "pbs.org" site:en.wikipedia.org Results 1 - 100 of about 1,400 from en.wikipedia.org for "pbs org". (0.21 seconds)
Actually, would think 1,400 would be low number, but let's go with the google number.
In fact, in the wikipedia article for pbs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pbs) there is an image from pbs that is used ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pbsclassiclogo.jpg) That image in fact was only a screen capture and is accepted.
Sources from other government sources. For example, war on terror photo source FBI ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kenya_bombing_1.jpg)
another example, Apollo 11 moon landing, photo source NASA, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Apollo_11_insignia.png)
While it is true that PBS is technically a 503(C)3 corporation, It source, founding, and mission would really make it a government agency and would seem that information from them would be in the public domain. Comments? Bayspatriot ( talk) 19:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Update: It seems that the image has been deleted. Bayspatriot, can you see about getting your image reinstated? Holdek (talk) 06:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Request of assistance on fair use rationale!Any interested parties please advise!
This should have been a 5 min edit. This photo is a more accurate representation
of that historical event. It is such an iconic photo, that it is well recognized
historic NPOV photo. I have noted that PBS has been repeated referenced in other
wikipedia edits. Even PBS own logo appears on the wikipedia page(noted earlier)
Even that would not be the most important point. Is there a similar historic photo from another usable source? Bayspatriot ( talk) 17:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Image:Northpbs1997.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 17:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
North has written eleven books- all of them being New York Times bestsellers. His latest book is titled American Heroes.It is based on his extensive coverage of U.S. military units engaged in Afghanistan, Iraq and the Philippines. This book was released in May 2008 and is yet another New York Times Best-Selling Book.
The text shouldn't read 'offers a first-hand account of his extensive coverage of', it should either be 'is a first-hand account of' or 'gives extensive coverage of'. 80.0.101.127 ( talk) 08:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I am completely washing my hands from working on this article. This article is not even part of my main interest. This was just peripheral interest. I happen to notice that this article did not have the most famous , iconic, image that is assoc- iated with this subject. As I said earlier, I hoped this would be a 5 minute edit!! I was then met with overwhelming hostility! -It was First said that an image from PBS could not be used in a Wikipedia article. I then looked up all the articles where there are references to PBS, including the iconic symbol of PBS itself!!! -It was Second said that PBS is not part of the federal government???!!!??? WTF!!!! And since it is not part of the federal government, any images could not be used!!! As a taxpayer, that is quite news to me!!! Is NASA part of the federal government? is FBI part of the federal government? Is HUD part of the federal government? Is SSDI part of the federal government? Why is it that PBS is suddenly declared by an administrator to not be part of the federal government? -It was Third said that Quote why this article is basically trash Endquote. There were several other contributors who were included in that diatribe. However, I was included also and am apprioately upset about the characterization of my contribution.
FINE! If this is trash, then the trash has been disposed of! Of course, after taking out the trash, it is of course correct to wash your hands.
I tried to join Wikipedia with the intent to contribute in certain areas where I have knowledge (please see my home page)
But, I am completely washing my hands of this article, and will not return Bayspatriot ( talk) 05:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
This page continues to grow with trivia any and every time a pop culture reference sneezes in a way that sounds like Ollie North or Colonel North.
There are already guidelines regarding trivia, though the sheer number of references is entertaining.
Question is, do they add any valuable information about this individual anymore than if said musician and/or TV show mentions Albert Einstein or Lyndon Johnson? Meaning, if such trivia isn't part of the standard for other types of biographical information sets here, then perhaps the entire section needs to be done away with?
I've begun picking off 1-ups and moving them to the pages of the various artists who own the lyric, or TV show and/or movie that has a passing reference - provided it can be referenced. But ugh ...
... what an unnecessary chore for useless data. Thoughts anyone? Meandean ( talk) 03:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it's important to list the date and terms of North's retirement/discharge, as well as the effect of any post-discharge hearings. They are hugely pivotal points in North's public life and form a lot of the basis for any post-military public image he has.
This article does not state if he was honorably discharged, given a bad conduct discharge, generally discharged or dishonorably discharged. Since it seems his release from active duty was related to the Iran Contra hearings, and his history as a USMC officer was the basis for basically everything else in this article, the circumstances of his departure should be noted. Since (I believe) his departure was controversial, and amended after the fact by court decisions, in the interest of neutrality both his original and amended discharge information should be noted.
Supporters of him will tend to support the amended information, detractors the original. Neither should be left out, so both must be included to avoid bias.
Davethehorrible ( talk) 00:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
This article on O. North is rather a hagiography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.193.247.187 ( talk) 13:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
someone has written that he was part of an SS division - I removed the remark. It would be wise to lock this article....
Not everything Nulla added was terrible POV pushing. For instance, the image of North testifying before Congress is an iconic one, very memorable to anyone who remembers the Iran-Contra hearings. And there's no reason why we shouldn't link to North's Townhall.com column. If you want to learn about North, reading his writings is a good place to start. grendel| khan 17:30, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)
Minor pet peeve in "Early Life." While it is common for commited Christians use the phrase "finding Christ" to decribe the their "deep personal commitment to the Christian faith," the term is not particularly neutral. The use of "finding Christ" also causes many wags to immediately remark "wow, I did not know he was lost," which is not always well recieved. Other than this minor edit, I know zip about Col. North's faith/faithfulness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.21.108.165 ( talk) 21:01, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
"Although raised a Roman Catholic, he has long attended Protestant evangelical services with his family." Irrelevant details.
I consider the evaluating paragraphs, starting with "North remains .... etc" as too hagiographical. This is not balanced analysis. Why not delete?
The article also has too many categories. AdeleivdVelden ( talk) 13:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
The final paragraph about drug running states "North has consistently denied any involvement with drug trafficking, stating on Fox’s Hannity and Colmes, “…nobody in the U.S. government, going all the way back to the earliest days of this under Jimmy Carter, ever had anything to do with running drugs.”[1]
The quote used is incomplete. The giving quote in the source cited is, "The fact is nobody in the government of the United States, going all the way back to the earliest days of this under Jimmy Carter, ever had anything to do with running drugs to support the Nicaraguan resistance. Nobody in the government of the United States. I will stand on that to my grave."
Leaving out "...to support the Nicaraguan resistance." Seems to alter the meaning of the quote, does anyone else agree? Kumlekar ( talk) 03:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I find it interesting that no mention is made of the fact that the USA was convicted by the world court of state sponsored terrorism in its support of the Contra's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States
This makes the entire paragraph justifying Oliver North's actions in supporting the terror campaign nothing more that a politically motivated diatribe divorced from the facts. It should be removed.
The facts are - according the World Court and United Nations - that the USA was running a terror campaign that totally destroyed the Nicaraguan economy. and that Oliver North was de facto the leading terrorist fund raiser for that terror campaign.
Oliver North's clear, convictable, role as an international terrorist and war criminal (while being a national hero in the US media) is often used to show the dichotomy between US media analysis and that of the rest of the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.138.1.245 ( talk) 16:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Is he married?
Does he have children? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.38.212.50 ( talk) 02:26, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I suggest that the FAIR-sourced statement in the article be deleted per this inasmuch as FAIR should not be used for contentious statements in BLPs.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 03:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
This is one of the worst biographical articles on WIKI. He went to college at the US Naval Academy with an interesting class. He served in Vietnam with interesting people. This is a persecution page, not a biography. Will somebody please fix or I will suggest removal until there substantial information to this. I don't even like the guy, especially now that he is on 'fixed' news, but this a railroad job. Msjayhawk ( talk) 00:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
You are both idiots you only know what you have read neither are old enough to even witness any of this. In the trials he was being "railroaded" and acted as the "fall guy" for the government. Only absent minded liberals would believe any different. This "summery report" is very accurate. One other thing referring to FOX NEWS as "Fixed News" is nothing more than proving my point. Keep believing the liberal networks and you can fall with the rest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.102.170.238 ( talk) 05:38, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
I agree that his USMC career, as distinguished as it is, needs some coverage as does his authorship of the notorious Rex84, which has a decent, but short wikipedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.208.28 ( talk) 21:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
A large "Early life and career" paragraph was repeatedly deleted by an anonymous user. The last time seems to have been on March 26, 2010 ( see change here). Apparently the material has not been restored since that time. I do not know enough about the subject to decide what should be restored, but biographies like this one typically include some background about the early years of the person, including education and early career. olivier ( talk) 12:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I would mention his appearance on Buckley's show 'Firing Line', in the '70's, giving the perspective of a front-line 'muddy boots' combat officer in Vietnam. 75.10.249.4 ( talk) 04:04, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
There should be some mention of North's co-authorship (with John Brinkerhoff) of the notorious martial law plan "Rex84" which already has a wikipedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.208.28 ( talk) 21:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
The sentence containing the phrase "deep personal committment" needs attribution, without which the article fails to maintan a neutral point of view. David F ( talk) 01:25, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Why is there no reference to North's secretary, Fawn Hall, in this article? Since there is a noncontroversial Wikipedia article for her already, this deficiency would be addressed by simply adding a link to her article. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Timoporges (
talk •
contribs)
17:53, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
This entire section seems based on primary sources, with no web links, and an IMDB link. My reading of BLP leads me to believe that not only are the sources inappropriate for such a large section of the article, but the predominance of this material seriously skews the article. ZHurlihee ( talk) 21:26, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
You will have to pardon me for the lack of an indent, but this could get lengthy.
I dont think my understanding is wrong. From WP:BLP:
The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia rests with the person who adds or restores material.
The burden of evidence would appear to lie with you to argue that the material can stay, not on me that it should go. But, in the spirit of cooperation, I will make a sound case for striking the material
The first 4 sources in the section are all to original documents.
Since there are no hyperlinks to them, we cannot evaluate if the material in the article actually matches the documents, but even if we could WP:BLPPRIMARY states the following about the use of original documents like this:
Exercise caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses. Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies.
Since I do not see any secondary sources providing any interpretation of these it would seem to be prohibited to use them.
I would certainly encourage additional opinions on this, but for the time being the material needs to be removed. ZHurlihee ( talk) 20:17, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Anyone know anything about how North's tenure with the Marine Corps ended? I cannot find anything indicating an honorable, dishonorable, and/or less-than-honorable discharge. Hmm... -- Grahamdubya ( talk) 02:39, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
LTC Oliver North retired from the US Marines in 1989. I could not find an exact date of retirement — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.235.135.115 ( talk) 23:49, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
He is also a syndicated columnist with Creators Syndicate. How do I add that without it getting taken down? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikicreate91 ( talk • contribs) 17:18, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I see this line:
"and his large military oysters were taken from his corpus to be destroyed at a later time."
I tried to delete it as vandalism, but it got restored? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.40.12.149 ( talk) 16:49, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This section was removed without explaination so I am restoring it. If you don't think it belongs at least have the guts and decency to tell me why. H57 —Preceding unsigned comment added by H57 ( talk • contribs) 02:38, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I just added a new photo I took of Ollie last week. Matt Sanchez ( talk) 08:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the article fails to mention the key words to the funding of the arms trade... Colombian drugs cartels cocaine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.24.42.212 ( talk) 05:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
You'll need to provide a source for that statement, and you'll probably need to log on. Matt Sanchez ( talk) 08:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
This article is a good one, but I am concerned that it does not mention in more detail his relationships with known drug runners which he had contact with such as Norieaga. Norieaga was involved with the contra drug money supply system the govenment had going on. Which brings me to another point. Where is all of the drug scandle section which doesn't seem to be on the page. Mabye I'm not looking in the right places but the only mention of it is on the Iran-Contra link. -Nate
The article refers to Noriega as a druglord in the context of North's 1986 communications with him. North's communications with Noriega at that point were in the context of Noriega being President of Panama at the time. The wording of this raises questions as to the objectivity of this portion of the article since the intent is clearly to link North's actions with the illicit trade of narcotics. Suggest changing text from 'druglord' to 'Panamanian President'.
Almost every military official's Wiki page has mention of his medals earned. What medals or awards did Oliver North win for his military service?
Medals are earned, NOT won. He earned his Silver Star during combat service in Viet Nam, NOT during the Viet Nam war. Engineer1234 18:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
If we are going to get pernickety i assume the war you are referring to is the Vietnam war, not the Viet Nam war...unless this is another covert war we are not aware of?Mark 139.184.222.94 ( talk) 23:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Senator Warner endorsed Marshall Coleman, a Republican who ran as an independent that year NOT Senator Robb. Pimpalicious
Oliver North Medals include: the Silver Star (for conspicuous gallantry), the Bronze Star (for Valor), and two Purple Hearts (for wounds received in combat)
Colonel North was tried in 1988 in relation to his activities while at the National Security Council, and convicted of three charges: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents. He was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Gerhard A. Gesell on July 5, 1989, to a three-year suspended prison term, two years probation, $150,000 in fines and 1,200 hours community service.
The first paragraph is OK, although specifying the sentence of an innocent person seems redundant. He didn't serve any sentence at all. The second paragraph reads like it was translated by Altavista from the original Thai. I cannot understand what it means and I doubt others do. The DoJ charged him with sixteen different offenses and he was acquitted of all them. Yes he was convicted on three counts and a retrial was ordered. The retrial came and the charges were dismissed. If you can think of a better way of putting it that's fine. But the bottom line is the article when I stumbled on it painted him as a convict, when in fact he is innocent of all those charges, as it is defined in our system. The Ollie North article is actually a perfect example of the cancer eating at Wikipedia. Have a look at the article before my edits, is that really what you want Wikipedia to be?
Ollieplatt 10:18, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Precise?
It is not precise at all, it is vague.
Your POV about why he was acquitted is interesting but can it be expressed in NPOV terms in the article?
He is innocent. It is a fact. He was not proven guilty and is therefore innocent, I chose the word deliberately.
I won't respond to your personal attack although suggest you look in the mirror.
I don't think you're right about him confessing on television but have an open mind about it.
The article falsely painted him as a criminal, ignored his recent success and only referred to him by his surname. That is the Wikipedia you seem to want. That is the cancer eating away at Wikipedia, blatant, unremitting extreme left-wing partisanship.
BTW, I think you mean "free rein" rather than "free reign", spell your cliches carefully. And in light of the trolling of every single edit my proud alliance of sockpuppets and I have made (and even sockpuppets that are not me but are SUSPECTED by your starchamber) to say I have a "free rein" is truly amusing. By having a different view to the Wikipedia "community", I am guilty of "disrupting" it. I find this rather jarring.
I am concerned that while you espouse liberalism, you are in fact authoritarian. You like cliches, so I'll give you another one: "be the change you seek."
Ollieplatt 10:50, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
RadicalSubversiv E 06:44, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Radical, what happened was that the judge ordered to rehear the charges dismissed them on the basis there was not sufficient evidence. He was declared "not guilty" (as all defendants in that situation are) and that was the end of it. May be Fred or an attorney or someone more familiar with this should decide how best to put it. My clear understanding is that all charges were dismissed and that he was "not guilty."
Ollieplatt 09:26, 21 Jan 2005
I can't document this, but a coworker tells me his middle name is Lawrence. If anyone has a source for that, it's be good to be rigorous about it. grendel| khan 13:35, 2005 Mar 3 (UTC)
Can people please stop reverting back to the version that has "Oliver North testifies before Congress and becomes a national hero." It's getting annoying, as it's obvious, flagrant POV. -- Holdek 06:43, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
As longtime lurker I am familiar with this dispute, although it is first change. I don't agree North was convicted validly and then escaped on a technicality. Just wrong. Winston88 04:17, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The claim that North is a national hero is clearly PoV. The whine that it's all these 'liberals' who are against you and North is familiar and irrelevant. We're concerned with facts here, not with party politics. And many of us aren't from the U.S., so ad hominem stuff about the ACLU, etc., sails straight by us. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 17:22, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you're not from US, then please refrain from pronouncements about North's legal status in US. The facts, not the politics, should be reported impartially and without favor. So Mel, stop the smell around here and leave the article as is. Your reverts are perverts. Ger6 17:37, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now that I realize you as the same person as Burgess and Philby, the Soviet agents, your childish attempts at insult are no longer puzzling. Ger6 18:17, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Feuding over this now very minor figure is rather boring if you ask me but let's not have the article ruined by liberals and conservatives and their bias. Agree with those concerned about the use of the word "technicality", very much in the eye of the beholder. Chucky45 19:16, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ger, your repeated edits are not in good faith. At least, it's hard to view them as such when you resort to petty name-calling. Additionally, I'd have to say I agree that "appeal" is more accurate than "technicality." Further, perhaps this page is a good nominee for at least temporary protection? -- Holdek 00:08, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
The article Oliver North is so riddled with liberal bias that it could have been written by John Kerry.
The charges against North relating to his public service during the Reagan administration were clearly politically motivated. They were thrown out of court. Even in the discredited first trial, he was only convicted of three counts of sixteen. So let's record the fact that he was prosecuted, initially convicted on a few minor counts and even those convictions were vacated due to gross and serious procedural defects in the case brought against him. End result he is as innocent a man as you and I (and much more so than pardoned Democrat donor and corporate scum bag Marc Rich and perjurer Bill Clinton and WalMart board member the Hillary.
Hairamerica 23:16, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A concurrence: the article on LtCol North is off the radar screen regarding neutrality. Not ONE single entry regarding his life prior to 1986 (other than medals earned NOT won) and nothing of his family. This article appears to have been written by the same author who wrote the puff piece on Ted Kennedy. Speaking of guilt. In addition, his retirement pension couldn't be revoked because of his post retirement legal problems (later resolved) which is why the less than honorable Pat Schroeder was unsuccessful in her efforts. Engineer1234 18:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
For the record, around 20 sockpuppets have been blocked indefinitely since March 11 in connection with this article, specifically in connection with the introduction. All others making the same pattern of edits, unless they're editors with regular contributions histories, will be blocked indefinitely from now on, with no further warnings, and without waiting for a 3RR violation. Hope that's clear. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:16, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't kept track, so I don't know who user:Borderguard is a sockpuppet of, but he clearly is of someone. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 19:34, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
All that was wrong with the article is neatly summarized by the disgraceful libel in the "political legacy" section which asserts, falsely, repeatedly, that Colonel North is a criminal. Get a grip. Or stop holding. Groucholenin 03:31, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm un-indenting before we run out of page. It's just that the definition of a criminal is someone who has been convicted of a crime (where the conviction has not been overturned). Confessing to a crime doesn't make a person a criminal. As an encyclopedia, we can't redefine legal terms. What we can do is quote North's specific confession; e.g. if he said: "I admit that I knowingly violated Law X," we can quote that, but I doubt he ever said it that explicitly (though I don't know). I have no POV on this issue, by the way, just to make that clear, as I know this article's been under attack. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:29, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
Holdek, if you're saying he admitted to breaking the law, you would need to quote him saying: "I broke the law," with a citation. If he admitted to lying to Congress, then that's what the article should say, again with a citation. It would be original research to analyse his statement. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:58, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
I've reinserted the references to criminality, given that there's no dispute about them. The consensus might be that they should be removed again, in which case fine — but I'm a bit worried that the sockpuppets shouldn't have too much of an effect on the contents of the article. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:51, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This article is even worse than the biased piece on George Bush. There have been edit wars on this article by North supporters and defenders, can someone step up and write a new article that is accurate and fair.
Like the Bush article, this is shrill and misleading. It judges North guilty of criminal conduct when no court was willing to do so. I don't know much about Iran-Contra but I don't think those above know much either. "Really, he's a criminal" comment above by "SlimVirgin" (I'd like to meet such a female), is rather revealing of the bias and partisanship here.
Lagavulin 20:01, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This Article is Weak on Citations and Heavy on Accusations: This is irresponsible and the string of accusations with few supporting citations of any merit suggest a heavy bias and political agenda on the part of some of the writers.
Sean7phil ( talk) 08:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
And note there are NOT over a dozen references to criminality, indictments, convictions yada yada.
I have no issue with the Encarta characterization of events, it seemed perfectly fair. It has a lot of detail that this trash article doesn't have about what happened and why. What it doesn't do is specify a sentence he never served because - in legal terms - he was never convicted.
Why should a Bill Gates owned commercial article be at one standard and Wikipedia which I believe is a vastly superior product 99% of the time be at such a lower standard just because it's North. The answer is clear enough, those responsible have let their hatred of North shine through. I would have no problem with the above, it is considerably better than the current article which is factually wrong, riddled with bias and beneath the high standards I expect as a frequent Wikipedia user. Lagavulin 23:48, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what the polite thing to do with my Totally Disputed tag, but as the person who initiated it, I am certainly not happy with the article as it currently stands, so until these issues are resolved I would appreciate it remaining. Is that OK? Lagavulin 00:06, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Excuse me, that's not what I said. I said in a dozen places his criminality is implied or asserted, not the word criminal. So read what I say before passing judgement.
His "sentence" has no place in the article given his conviction was vacated. That's a start.
Lagavulin 00:23, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Further the treatment of his role at the National Security Council combating terrorism, and those who fund it, seems particularly partial. American marines I think were targeted at that Berlin nightclub and an American military response against Libya was not that "controversial" at all, as I recall. My understanding was that it reminded Gaddafi of the consequences of being involved in terrorism against American targets. I doubt any senior democrat opposed the action, so where is this controversy?
Lagavulin 00:27, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The entire section on Iran Contra is quite outrageous with emotive words like channeling profits and such. Can't we just have the facts without the constant editorial. It's just boring. To one way of thinking, the facts speak louder own their own.
Lagavulin 00:29, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree the Later Life and Career section should be much more detailed, especially about his Senate campaign.
The political legacy part with its assertions of acting "above the law" outside the law and other assertions of criminality are just unfit to be in the article. It establishes a straw defense of North and then not surprisingly blows it down. Can someone press the delete button on this trash?
If I kept reading, no doubt I'd find more. It's just bad. Lagavulin 00:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am very puzzled and disturbed by the Wikipedia conviction of Oliver North. Holdek and presumably others have unilaterally decided he's a criminal, or that he's "above the law", "flouting the law", "breaking the law" or whichever formulation they want.
North was charged with sixteen Iran-Contra offenses. He was acquitted of thirteen. And convicted of three on the basis of his own testimony for which he'd received immunity. Now John Gotti gets better treatment than that.
So a retrial was ordered. And then reviewing the evidence, the prosecution decided to withdraw all charges against him.
Now call me a stickler but that makes him no more a criminal than you and I (I'm making an assumption here of course!).
So can we stop throwing around the labels in their various formulations implying North's criminality. It's just mindless, partisan stuff that should go in blogs not in an encyclopedia article.
And until you can face up to your responsibilities Holdek, this article will remain tagged as the biased, factually wrong trash that it is. Lagavulin 00:55, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is very interesting indeed to compare this article with the more balanced treatment of OJ Simpson, a person we have all probably come to believe "did it." I always feel guilty for thinking that because in the best legal system invented so far, he was acquitted. But read the article, it does the whole OJ saga justice, without the invective, innuendo or inferences.
Lagavulin 00:58, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sure enough the article on Poindexter is equally disgraceful. What is it about Iran-Contra that gets everyone so irrational. Lagavulin 01:18, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hey Lagavulin are you for real? This is absurd. North testified in Congress that he broke the law. That he lied to Congress, lied to the American people, about things that had been published in papers around the world. That he implemented policies that included selling weapons to known terrorists in order to violate federal law (which prevented funding the Contras). He even revealed that he was aware that much Contra funding came from illegal drugs. He did not confess these things under any kind of duress, but rather during televised hearings in front of the Congress and the American people. That his testimony had received immunity is irrelevant -- you compare him to Gotti but does anyone doubt that Gotti is a criminal? What do you think should be said about North; that he is just a talk radio blowhard, with nothing interesting of note about his (proud!) involvement in Iran/Contra? -- csloat 09:53, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Based on the fact that you registered today, and have slapped the POV and Factual Innacuracy marker on many articles on conservative political figures, often with a notice on the talk page to the effect of "This article is trash" or "Totally disputed," I'm going to go ahead and remove the marker from this article until it can be established if you are a sockpuppet or not. I hope you understand that we've had a problem with this lately. -- Holdek (talk) 01:23, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
Having read what one is, I certainly am not a sockpuppet, so I welcome you establishing it at your convenience, I have been a Wikipedia regular user for over a year in fact and I reject your proposal of removing the tag. Please do not remove it again. I don't really care whether this article has been a battleground of knuckleheads of left and right, it is riddled with error and bias and will remain tagged that way until a serious discussion of the issues is held and experienced authors without ideological baggage get involved. The tag stays while the bias does. I hope you understand that. Lagavulin 01:28, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Tag whatever you like, I tag it shit. It is pure shit. The moment it is unprotected, I shall return to ensure this American hero is presented truthfully and not the liberal lies we are getting. BriteHumer 10:09, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
BriteHumer is now blocked for image vandalism. Mgm| (talk) 10:30, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
Just as the article is trash as it is, it is certainly not improved by North fanatics unilaterally imposing provocative and biased changes of their own. In the Sharon article, someone wisely suggested a Request for Comment process to remedy its worst excesses. Is that a way of moving forward with this? Either way, I am very discomfited by this article remaining untagged as if it represents the best and unbiased of Wikipedia. It is neither, it's poorly written, sketchy and very partisan. Lagavulin 21:00, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Lagavulin, you're more than welcome to expand the article, bearing in mind that it must conform with Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and should be written in a factual, disinterested tone. If you and the others can agree there will be reverting, I'll be happy to unprotect (though if the sockpuppets return, the protection may have to). SlimVirgin (talk) 08:13, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
Hi Slim, I'll do my best but my knowledge of North and Poindexter is very limited and I think others better able to write something neutral and factual. I believe the article should be changed substantially, removing the defamatory comments tagging North a criminal (or whichever artful formulation "above the law" "flout the law" etc) and probably then protected from the unfortunate vandalizing. I don't really understand the distinction between a sockpuppet, vandals and others (is Holdek one?) but I am optimistic that if attention is drawn to this article's many deficiencies then it will be improved by someone. Lagavulin 22:44, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand the context of the quote I must say, my point is that Wikipedia is not the place where North can be found guilty twenty years on.
So any assertion that North's actions were in any respect illegal is really not appropriate. He was initially accused of sixteen charges and ultimately acquitted of all of them. Yes, he was convicted of three charges initially but that conviction was vacated. Whatever we think of North, he is not a criminal, not in our system anyway and I won't accept any inference that he is. It's not the place of an encyclopedia article to rewrite history the way we wish it would have been. If it was, I would immediately change the Jane Fonda article to include a three year stormy marriage with me around 1970. That would have been fun. Lagavulin 23:31, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And is it appropriate to say Person X says North was angelic and Person Y says North was satanic. I really don't know, but I don't see it adding much. Can't we just have the facts. Lagavulin 23:33, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
May I suggest that the article include the date that North was actually convicted, and perhaps be more specific about when the trial was? It says now that he was tried in 1988 and sentenced July 5, 1989. But the conviction date (May 4, 1989) is missing. And I presume the trial was in 1988 and 1989, not just 1988, as the wording suggests. Kirchherr 03:07, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As a note, I have changed the last section from "opponents disaprove of his criminal acts," to "opponents disapprove of his alleged illegal activities." His conviction was overturned in a federal appeals court due to the immunity granted.
NOTE - Please dont flame me because I just registered, I use Wiki and never felt the need to add anything until reading the discussion here...
First, Oliver North is NOT guilty.
From the article: "he was convicted of three: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents."
Being too young to remember Iran-Contra I came here to find out more and read that sentence and was genuinely surprised, a convicted felon was now a notable war correspondent for the major cable news network, how did this happen? Then I read the "However..." several lines after reading this sentence, having already convicted him in my mind, I was then confused as to why a criminal sentence was detailed even though he never was required to serve it. This is a serious editorial bias in the article and should be changed. What is the argument against changing it?
I didn't know the outcome of Iran-Contra until I came here, figuring (wrongly?) that Wikipedia would be unbiased, and I believe that the article should state prominently that he is NOT guilty, why is this so abhorrent to holdek et al? He IS not guilty why can't that be stated explicitly. I wouldn't feel right rewriting it in myself as I have no experience editing here but I know that this article surprised me by convicting him and then saying, oh just kidding, he actually never went to jail. This is a HUGE, glaring error in the article and I don't know why an experienced contributor won't change it.
Second, well more of the first really, references implying he broke the law.
All from this article as of 5-30-05
1. "North was a figure of great controversy, with supporters enjoying his impassioned defense of his actions, and opponents disapproving of his breaking the law."
2. "North's critics argue that in a democracy and a nation of laws, one man cannot act above the law regardless of how righteous he believes his goals to be."
I read the entire discussion but can't figure out why people want to leave these references in. Someone state explicitly what the arguments are for each. If there was a trial for the criminal offenses stated here and the end result (appeals courts are there for a reason) was that he was not guilty, why are these references still in the article? Also, the reference to OJ being guilty even though he was found not guilty is a bad example as he was found liable in the civil case. As far as I know Ollie North was never convicted of anything. Am I wrong?
(Yes he was initially convicted of three counts, but the counts didn't have anything to do with selling weapons or funding contras. So him stating he did those things when in fact those were not found to be criminal acts even in the overturned first trial should exonerate him and prevent detractors from labeling him as being above the law, breaking the law or any variant thereof.)
Thirdly, why only qualified support for North?
"Some conservatives disapprove of North's actions, and the icon-status given to him by some. It should be noted that Republican Senator John Warner of Virginia endorsed Marshall Coleman, a Republican who ran as an independent, instead of North in the 1994 Virginia Senate race."
John Warner is not conservative but the article implies that Warner is a conservative who disapproves of North because he supported a different candidate. I don't know anything about Virginia politics but him supporting a different candidate can hardly be used as evidence that conservatives disapprove of North.
If you read the article linked to on this page for Warner it states at the bottom "Warner was one of fourteen moderate senators to forge a compromise". How can these two statements both be true?
Conclusion
I'd appreciate someone letting me know where I'm going wrong here or what I'm missing. From what I've seen and read everywhere else, I've always thought Ollie North was a standup ex-marine who continues to do a lot for the guys serving in the military. Being dragged through a congressional hearing for some black-op he was in charge of as an NSC guy hardly makes him 'above the law' precisely because he stood trial and was exonerated. Innocent until proven guilty is troublesome for a lot of people because they just KNOW (insert hated partisan nemesis here) is guilty of (lying, obstruction of justice, war crimes, being spawn of satan, etc). The courts have a responsibility to enforce the Constitution ALL of the time. An encyclopedia should reflect history not the partisan editorializing of the authors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsquared ( talk • contribs) 04:46, 31 May 2005
Re-registering?? I just registered. Sorry, I'm new to the whole editing process, but I made three pretty big points that I believe would give this article a more balanced view. The references to being above the law etc need to be removed. Also, John Warner's support of a different candidate as evidence of 'conservatives' not approving is factually incorrect as John Warner is referred to as a moderate in Wikipedia's own article on him.
Oh, I just re-read your comment, and I realized what you were talking about re-registering, just because I disagree with what you believe to be an NPOV article you think I must be the same person as whoever else was disagreeing with you however long ago that was. I assure you I'm not. In fact it doesn't matter, I just want to have an honest discussion about errors in the article that I believe just as strongly are wrong as you believe they are right.
Here's my attempt at signing, sorry for not doing it in the first post. -- DSquared Noon, PST 05-31-05
Ok, like I said, I knew zero about Iran-contra 2 days ago, so I'm a little fuzzy about which of these were crimes. Encarta (which I have a very dim view of to begin with) says these are violations of the policy of the US. Policy violations aren't in and of themselves crimes are they? And anyways it was my understanding the policy violations were policies set by congress and not by the Reagan administration. So would it be a crime for two branches of government to pursue different policies??? (It'd be easier if I could IM you or something.)
Also, on Warner, he's most definitely not a conservative. Sure he's a republican but there is a broad spectrum of political beliefs that fall under republican these days and Warner's drifting off the reservation to side with McCain and the 12 others to block some of Bush's nominees would put him squarely outside the conservative camp. I'll be honest with you, I'm not familiar with anything else of note that John Warner has done but this compromise is a huge decision and clearly shows he is not a good model for a normal or generic conservative.
Why couldn't a different conservative leader be quoted here as it's all too easy to point to this latest compromise as evidence of Warner's more centrist leanings. Which I guess begs the question, who else doesn't like North from the Right? (I don't know how to do a timestamp, when I hit the button it just puts a bunch of atildes in and I already set my time/date preferences.) -- DSquared 19:54 5-31-05
Ok, clearly this is not a clear-cut issue, I just read Yahoo's article on Iran-Contra (" http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=23706")and it does state:
"Despite the strong opposition of the Reagan administration, the Democratic-controlled Congress enacted legislation, known as the Boland amendments, that prohibited the Defense Dept., the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or any other government agency from providing military aid to the contras from Dec., 1983, to Sept., 1985. The Reagan administration circumvented these limitations by using the National Security Council (NSC), which was not explicitly covered by the law, to supervise covert military aid to the contras. Under Robert McFarlane (1983�85) and John Poindexter (1985�86) the NSC raised private and foreign funds for the contras. This operation was directed by NSC staffer Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North. McFarlane and North were also the central figures in the plan to secretly ship arms to Iran despite a U.S. trade and arms embargo."
And Concludes with: "The Iran-contra affair raised serious questions about the nature and scope of congressional oversight of foreign affairs and the limits of the executive branch."
The facts look to me like: 1: Administration wants to help anti-communist forces in Nicaragua. 2: Opposition in Democratic Congress passes law to prevent administration from sending aid to said forces. 3: Administration uses loophole to circumvent said law (NSC not explicitly covered). 4: Congress finds out -> gets pissed off the administration didn't follow their policy and drags some administration officials into congress to testify about what they did. 5: 5th amendment rights violated so North/Poindexter charges are dropped, Bush 41 pardons everyone else.
please please please tell me which of these facts I have wrong.
Also, I looked up John Warner's conservative rating on the first Conservative Rating Yahoo Result (www.acuratings.org) and found:
Senator Zell MILLER (D) Georgia 2004 Score - 96 Previous Year's Score - 75 Lifetime Score - 73
Senator John WARNER (R) Virginia 2004 Score - 72 Previous Year's Score - 80 Lifetime Score - 81
Senator John McCAIN (R)
Arizona 2004 Score - 72 Previous Year's Score - 75 Lifetime Score - 83
Senator Bill FRIST (R) Tennessee 2004 Score - 92 Previous Year's Score - 90 Lifetime Score - 89
Representative Tom DeLAY (R)
Texas, District 22 2004 Score - 100 Previous Year's Score - 92 Lifetime Score - 96
I picked Zell Miller to show the most conservative Democrat and then Warner and McCain which parallel each other and used Frist and DeLay as baseline conservatives. Nobody refers to McCain as a conservative and Warner has nearly the same rating, so I think it is wrong to label him a conservative. By the way I was genuinely surprised by these results. You can check other rating services but this was linked to from www.conservative.org so it's hard to dismiss offhand.
This is an interesting learnign experience for me by the way. I was born on the day Reagan fired all the Air Traffic controllers so I never experienced any of this politicking although I do remember maps in elementary school with East/West Germany (maybe my kids will remember maps of north/south korea??). Thanks for having patience (how do you put in a timestamp!@%^).
-- DSquared 20:12 5-31-05
The problem with the selling of arms to Iran, is that it was done by the Israelis who came up with the whole scheme to begin with. The Israelis sent the weapons with the understanding that the US would send Israel replacements. We routinely give Israel weapons and although we may have known they would end up in Iranian hands I think that technically it did not violate the embargo. This is also similar to the Cuba trade embargo. Are Americans who travel to Cuba breaking the law, yes, are they criminals, no as they haven't been successfully prosecuted. It is a fine line precisely because the people who do believe that the law is unjust (I personally agree with the embargo) and choose to violate it as it is a POLICY they don't agree with. We will never see the left calling for prosecution of all the Hollywood Celebs who adore Castro and travel there because they don't agree with the policy. Are these people also "above the law"? I believe this is the crux of the argument against using that language when referring to North and his acknowledged dealing surrounding Iran-Contra. It also may be important to note that his actions and the Contras' resulted in an election removing the communists from power. This 'big-picure' result is often lost in the intricacies/technicalities/politicking surrounding Iran-Contra, also American hostages were released although the militants responded by taking more hostages and so they stopped that aspect and focused more on the Contras.
I doubt we can ever know completely what happened as the NSC is a super secretive part of the executive branch and it's unclear whether congress has the authority to dictate foreign policy to the administration. The Supreme Court refusing to hear the case is most probably because they viewed it as a separation of powers argument between the other two branches of government and did not want to get involved (rightly so, I believe).
As for Warner, it is appropriate to mention him supporting a different candidate when mentioning North's Senate run but should be separated from the section talking about Conservative support or lack thereof. We also don't know enough about the politics there, perhaps the opponent was a buddy of Warner's and Warner thought North was an outsider, the point is we don't know. I personally don't know any conservatives who don't like him but I don't know everyone, I live in Bakersfield, California which is Conservative leaning though the city has nearly 300K people we do have a sizeable liberal population mostly imported from nearby (90 miles) Los Angeles. Judging from Blog and Talk Radio sources he appears to be highly respected as a no nonsense soldier's soldier.
He also founded a charity called the Freedom Alliance ( http://www.freedomalliance.org) and works with conservative talk radio host Sean Hannity who is a huge supporter of his and frequently sits in for Hannity. Alan Colmes who is the left half of Hannity and Colmes appears to like North as well. When he does get to take sides of an issue it is often at odds with the administration or the right and his viewpoint is basically a pro-military pro-democracy one with little right wing influence at all. He does refer to his faith but he clearly is no bible-thumper.
An interesting piece of trivia is that North was the President in an episode of Sliders where he seized power or something I don't remember it's been awhile. I will try to find out which one.
-- Dsquared 22:30, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Sliders:
Landing in 1960s Earth, Rembrandt and Wade are mistaken for gods; Arturo and Quinn, for opponents of President Oliver North. The peace movement of the 1960s lives on here--right down to the communes and war protesters in San Francisco. These protestors however, are protesting a protracted war against Soviet controlled North Australia. Ollie North is President.
http://www.brillig.com/sliders/episodes/06.html
This is an interesting aside as Sliders is somewhat of a cult classic and they chose Oliver North to be the poster boy for a protracted WWIII.
-- Dsquared 22:38, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Here's the problem referring to law breaking from wikipedia's iran-contra article:
The Iran-Contra Affair is significant because it brought many questions into public view:
Does the president have unconditional authority to conduct foreign policy? (Can the president approve selling arms to a foreign nation without congressional approval?) What information does the president have to provide to Congress and when should that information be supplied? (Does the president have to tell Congress about foreign policy initiatives?) What authority, if any, does Congress have to oversee functions of the executive branch? (Does funding for foreign policy initiatives have to be approved by Congress? Who defines the entire spending budget and who regulates it? Is the provision of the 1978 Ethics in Government Act that creates the position of independent counsel answering to the Attorney General, constitutional?) What role does the Supreme Court have in deciding conflicts between the legislative branch and executive branch? How much support is America entitled to provide to armed opposition forces seeking to replace governments with ones more sympathetic to the United States? Most, if not all, of the constitutional and ethical questions are still unresolved. On one view, it appears that if the legislative and executive branches do not wish to work together, there are no legal remedies. These are transient issues in that the executive and legislative branches change every few years.
The laws that you say were broken were laws created by a separate branch of government. The executive branch of government had a different policy and found ways to circumvent the laws created by congress in an attempt to dictate foreign policy. That is the key here. Article II gives the President the power to make foreign policy not Congress. All the above questions are admittedly unresolved. That is the question: can North be guilty of committing a crime when he is following a different policy directive than the law was trying to dictate to the administration? There is clearly a question as to whether Congress had the power to make what North did a crime and so implying he acted above the law is false unless the article also mentions that Congress may have acted outside the bounds of the Constitution when instituting said law. I care little whether Encarta says laws were broken, I've always found it to be half-baked on most issues. Yahoo only states the embargo was violated, I'm not saying the embargo wasn't violated as arms clearly ended up in Iran, but I, and others, are raising the argument that the Administration, not Congress is granted the power to make foreign policy so the embargo itself was unconstitutional as the administration supported this effort.
The article should reference this constituional conflict in some way, as it is written it assumes this conflict has been resolved against the administration which is not true according to the referenced wikipedia article. That is an important distinction to make and clearly the way it is written you are assuming that the conflict has been resolved which is factually incorrect.
-- Dsquared 23:20, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
-- Dsquared 21:49, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)== Controversial use of "Controversial" ==
"He also helped plan the controversial 1986 air raids on Libyan military bases in Tripoli and Benghazi in retaliation for the bombing of a Berlin nightclub."
The wikipedia article on Libya discusses the raids but doesn't call them controversial and from a quick check of who actually thought they were controversial turns up only Libyan nationals and far-left outfits. It's a minor point but clearly the word is not warranted here. The UN even sanctioned Libya several years later which shows international confirmation of Libya's known terrorist related activities. Using the word controversial is editorializing on the justification for the raids and I think I'll just go ahead and change it. If you revert it, please give some justification for why wikipedia should take a stand on whether these raids were controversial.
-- Dsquared 23:52, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
There was a great deal of controversy, both regarding the carrying out of the raids in the first place, and regarding the way in which they were carried out. There was also an outcry in this country when our bases were used for the raids, and other European countries refused to allow their airspace to be used by the aircraft involved. If, of course, you consider anybody who disagrees with your view on this to be "far-left", then your comments make sense, but in the real world, they're false. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:09, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Are you sure you read the article? It talks about opposition by other countries, and even notes the opposition of the Queen of England, interestingly enough. Part of what was controversial about it was the civilian casualties and the fact that Qadhafi's daughter was killed. -- Holdek (talk) 15:56, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
Hold on,
Any action that someone somewhere disagrees with is now controversial? So they opposed the raids, was there an "outcry" when the terrorists blew up innocent people? Was it controversial to fight in WWII? I'm pretty sure the German's didn't like the fact that we were bombing them. That the people on the receiving end of the military action and those who sympathize with them disagree doesn't in and of itself make it a controversial action.
Here is a revealing question: Do you two personally believe Libya was involved in terrorist activities? And if so, why is a military response from the American government controversial? Except in the eyes of those who believe any contemporary use of American military power is controversial. The Democratically controlled congress wasn't objecting to it because Americans got killed.
Controversiality is POV dependent. Do you agree or disagree with that statement? Labeling it controversial implies a certain POV, and I was under the impression we want POV neutral articles.
-- Dsquared 21:49, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Who is Trey Stone? Aren't they the South Park guys? ...looking up... Matt Stone and Trey Parker, weird I have little to no idea what youre talking about. My facade? I thought I was being honest. I laboured? oh youre british, now that I understand what your point of view is it's more clear what you are saying.
This sounds an awful lot like a personal attack, so I guess I don't understand the anger here. You say "Controversiality is not "PoV dependent" in a case like this, when we're reporting the controversy rather than creating it." and I must point out that I personally don't think they were controversial and you do because we have differing pov's.... I edited the article to attribute the controversy to people outside the US, that satisfies reporting it without making the the raids controversial by nature. I've been pretty honest from the beginning about my own POV, and I've been genuinely trying to work with holdek, you just throw accusations around....
Controversiality IS POV dependent, that controversy exists is not, but then the fact that controversy exists surrounding any military action over the last fifty years isn't in the least bit remarkable....
-- Dsquared 22:38, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't know where you got the idea I was editing your comments from but because youve been nothing but an asshole to me I'm quitting Wikipedia, if youre the sort of person that is an admin and supposed to be adherent to all the rules then the community is in a pretty sad state and I'd rather not be a part of it.
-- Dsquared 05:19, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Is this referencing Nicaragua? From what I've read they lost an election. I don't think losing an election can constitute an overthrow of a democratically elected government otherwise the US gets overthrow every 4 or 8 years....
My point is it's not accurate to categorize it as an overthrow when it was done through a democratic process.
-- Dsquared 23:48, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
THE FREEDOM ALLIANCE
The quote I inserted is straight from The Freedom Alliance website "Mission Statement." Sean Hannity talks about college scholarships when he's trying to raise money for the Freedom Alliance, but that is a very small part of what they do. Their "Annual Report" on the scholarship effort contains no dollar figure$. In the last year for which they have published financials, they spent several times more on fundraising and other consultants than they did on scholarships.
- Newzhound 2/7/2006
I believe my version for the first paragraph is correct. Arms were not "smuggled through Iran to the Contras," rather, they were sold to Iran with the profits of those sales being diverted to the Contras. Also, it's going to far out to say "Reagan's clandestine smuggling" because as far as I know it's never been proven that Reagan was involved. -- Holdek (talk) 15:57, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
I modifed the text so as to read:
The extra words are intended to address the concerns that Holdek raised about accuracy. Is that a fair comtrpomise? - Willmcw 18:54, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
I agree that it has been proven that 1)North coordinated weapons sales to Iran, and then 2)attempted to give the profits of those sales to the Contras. However, I have yet to see proof that any funds from the arms sales ever got to the Contras. I believe that North attempted to give the profits of those sales to the Contras, but this attempt and all other Iran-Contra dealings done by North were stopped before he could get those funds to the Contras. The documents that I am looking at while considering if [Iranian arms sales funds ever went to the Contras is in:
The Final Report Of The Independent Council For Iran/Contra Matters, Volume I,Investigations and Prosecutions, Lawrence Walsh, Independent Council,August 4, 1993.
The part of this report that I am taking my information from is: Part I, The Underlying Facts 1. [Part I, The Underlying Facts 1 can be found on www.fas.org on:
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/part_i.htm
I ask that the statement in the First Paragraph be changed. I think that it would be a more clear paragraph if the statement, "with the profits being channeled to the Contras in Nicaragua" be changed to some statement like,"North then tried to give [the profits from arms sales with Iran] to the Contras. I do not mean to criticise the article on Oliver North. But I have not seen any documents or reports that have proven that any money from the Iranian arms sales ever went to the Contras. I merely think that the wording of the First Paragraph should be reworded so that the paragraph states that Oliver North attempted to funnel the aforementioned funds to the Contras. From the news reports and documents I have read, I believe that Oliver North intended to give the Iranian arms sales funds to the Contras, but it has yet to be proven that he ever succeeded in getting such funds to the Contras.
Thank You, S. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.131.126.94 ( talk) 01:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC).
The article states Lt. Col. North graduated from the Naval Academy in 1968, yet it also states he was married in 1967.
Either he was married in 1967, against Naval regulations for a midshipman at the Academy, or (more likely), he married in 1968. My guess is that he was married in '68, shortly after graduation. Anyone have confirmation?
Dan myers 12:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey Dan, can you find the exact regulation that says midshipman can't get married. It's a very common practice during war time for students at all of the Service Academies to do so. The reason being is that they usually will get deployed shortly after receiving their commission. If they are married, they get paid for dependants, plus if they deploy to certain regions or for a certain amount of time, they may qualify for seperation or hardship pay if married. Also, according to his books, he's been married since '67.
In one of the sections it says that some dude sent an email to some other dude in 1986. That is highly unlikely.
It's very important to understand the difference between the internet and the web. The internet has been around since the 60's. E-mail is part of the internet that dates back to it's early days. The web is much newer, though has pretty much taken over the internet.
I can not find what his job was during Iran-Contra. A "a key Reagan administration official"? What kind of job is that? He must have had a job title and a job description. Who was his boss, who were his subordinates? What else did hid do? Did he directly report to Reagan? 213.39.190.133 12:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, does anyone know the circumstances under which he left the U.S. military? Was he discharged* prior to his service to the Regan administration? Did he leave the military as a result of the Iran-Contra affair? If so, was his departure voluntary or forced? Does he receive a military pension? (* I'm not sure if the term "discharge" applies to commissioned officers, so I use it loosely here)
LtCol North retired from the US Marine Corps after twenty years service. This is true because the former Congressional rep Pat Schroeder tried (unsuccessfully) to have his retirement pension revoked. He was an operations officer on the National Security Council. He was also a 1968 graduate of the US Naval Academy and was classmates of General Hagee (Commandant of the Marine Corps) as well as James Webb, Senator elect from Virginia. LtCol North was eligible to retire with twenty years service in June 1988. An active duty Marine/soldier/sailor/airman with twenty years qualifying service is entitled to one half base pay as lifetime pension at date of retirement. BTW, I am a career Army officer (LtCol, retirement pending) and have some working knowledge of military matters and military history Engineer1234 18:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
20CenturyFox keeps reverting is to was. Here is the quote: North was a figure of great controversy, with supporters enjoying his impassioned defense of his actions, and opponents disapproving of his breaking the law.
Oliver North is still a figure of controversy, the fact he has a page on on wikipedia attributes his historical legacy as a political figure in the 80s and continues to generate controversy on the Left. He is a conservative commentator on Fox channel, which makes him a target of the Left. He IS a figure of controversy. Does anyone see this way? The previously edit should be reverted. ForrestLane42 23:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42
Primary sources on North and for Iran Contra can be found at the National Security Archive:
Kellen T 07:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the prior photo is inaccurate to the public history. I replaced that photo that is better remembered, and accurate description of what history shows of the congressional hearings on Iran Contra. If you search the historical record , you would find this to be the most common photo available. This photo was downloaded from the national archives and is in the public domain. Bayspatriot Bayspatriot ( talk) 02:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
As was correctly pointed out to me, can I guarantee fair use rationale per Wikipedia guidelines? Since I faced a 48 hr deadline for deletion, I have replaced it with another accurate image of the Iran-Contra hearings. That 2nd image is properly documented. I believe the 2nd image also is a far more accurate view of the Iran-Contra hearings like the 1st image. That 2nd image is from a public website. PBS.org That is a publicly funded. Do I have permission to use that image? Since I am a taxpayer, and this is in the public domain, the answer is Yes! Bayspatriot ( talk) 04:56, 15 December 2007 (UTC) website in the United States of America.
Holdek, thank you for your kind words.
I have been looking for more justification. When I do a google search, I found 1400 different instances where pbs is identified as source material. using google advanced search "pbs.org" site:en.wikipedia.org Results 1 - 100 of about 1,400 from en.wikipedia.org for "pbs org". (0.21 seconds)
Actually, would think 1,400 would be low number, but let's go with the google number.
In fact, in the wikipedia article for pbs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pbs) there is an image from pbs that is used ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pbsclassiclogo.jpg) That image in fact was only a screen capture and is accepted.
Sources from other government sources. For example, war on terror photo source FBI ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kenya_bombing_1.jpg)
another example, Apollo 11 moon landing, photo source NASA, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Apollo_11_insignia.png)
While it is true that PBS is technically a 503(C)3 corporation, It source, founding, and mission would really make it a government agency and would seem that information from them would be in the public domain. Comments? Bayspatriot ( talk) 19:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Update: It seems that the image has been deleted. Bayspatriot, can you see about getting your image reinstated? Holdek (talk) 06:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Request of assistance on fair use rationale!Any interested parties please advise!
This should have been a 5 min edit. This photo is a more accurate representation
of that historical event. It is such an iconic photo, that it is well recognized
historic NPOV photo. I have noted that PBS has been repeated referenced in other
wikipedia edits. Even PBS own logo appears on the wikipedia page(noted earlier)
Even that would not be the most important point. Is there a similar historic photo from another usable source? Bayspatriot ( talk) 17:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Image:Northpbs1997.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 17:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
North has written eleven books- all of them being New York Times bestsellers. His latest book is titled American Heroes.It is based on his extensive coverage of U.S. military units engaged in Afghanistan, Iraq and the Philippines. This book was released in May 2008 and is yet another New York Times Best-Selling Book.
The text shouldn't read 'offers a first-hand account of his extensive coverage of', it should either be 'is a first-hand account of' or 'gives extensive coverage of'. 80.0.101.127 ( talk) 08:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I am completely washing my hands from working on this article. This article is not even part of my main interest. This was just peripheral interest. I happen to notice that this article did not have the most famous , iconic, image that is assoc- iated with this subject. As I said earlier, I hoped this would be a 5 minute edit!! I was then met with overwhelming hostility! -It was First said that an image from PBS could not be used in a Wikipedia article. I then looked up all the articles where there are references to PBS, including the iconic symbol of PBS itself!!! -It was Second said that PBS is not part of the federal government???!!!??? WTF!!!! And since it is not part of the federal government, any images could not be used!!! As a taxpayer, that is quite news to me!!! Is NASA part of the federal government? is FBI part of the federal government? Is HUD part of the federal government? Is SSDI part of the federal government? Why is it that PBS is suddenly declared by an administrator to not be part of the federal government? -It was Third said that Quote why this article is basically trash Endquote. There were several other contributors who were included in that diatribe. However, I was included also and am apprioately upset about the characterization of my contribution.
FINE! If this is trash, then the trash has been disposed of! Of course, after taking out the trash, it is of course correct to wash your hands.
I tried to join Wikipedia with the intent to contribute in certain areas where I have knowledge (please see my home page)
But, I am completely washing my hands of this article, and will not return Bayspatriot ( talk) 05:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
This page continues to grow with trivia any and every time a pop culture reference sneezes in a way that sounds like Ollie North or Colonel North.
There are already guidelines regarding trivia, though the sheer number of references is entertaining.
Question is, do they add any valuable information about this individual anymore than if said musician and/or TV show mentions Albert Einstein or Lyndon Johnson? Meaning, if such trivia isn't part of the standard for other types of biographical information sets here, then perhaps the entire section needs to be done away with?
I've begun picking off 1-ups and moving them to the pages of the various artists who own the lyric, or TV show and/or movie that has a passing reference - provided it can be referenced. But ugh ...
... what an unnecessary chore for useless data. Thoughts anyone? Meandean ( talk) 03:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it's important to list the date and terms of North's retirement/discharge, as well as the effect of any post-discharge hearings. They are hugely pivotal points in North's public life and form a lot of the basis for any post-military public image he has.
This article does not state if he was honorably discharged, given a bad conduct discharge, generally discharged or dishonorably discharged. Since it seems his release from active duty was related to the Iran Contra hearings, and his history as a USMC officer was the basis for basically everything else in this article, the circumstances of his departure should be noted. Since (I believe) his departure was controversial, and amended after the fact by court decisions, in the interest of neutrality both his original and amended discharge information should be noted.
Supporters of him will tend to support the amended information, detractors the original. Neither should be left out, so both must be included to avoid bias.
Davethehorrible ( talk) 00:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
This article on O. North is rather a hagiography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.193.247.187 ( talk) 13:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
someone has written that he was part of an SS division - I removed the remark. It would be wise to lock this article....
Not everything Nulla added was terrible POV pushing. For instance, the image of North testifying before Congress is an iconic one, very memorable to anyone who remembers the Iran-Contra hearings. And there's no reason why we shouldn't link to North's Townhall.com column. If you want to learn about North, reading his writings is a good place to start. grendel| khan 17:30, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)
Minor pet peeve in "Early Life." While it is common for commited Christians use the phrase "finding Christ" to decribe the their "deep personal commitment to the Christian faith," the term is not particularly neutral. The use of "finding Christ" also causes many wags to immediately remark "wow, I did not know he was lost," which is not always well recieved. Other than this minor edit, I know zip about Col. North's faith/faithfulness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.21.108.165 ( talk) 21:01, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
"Although raised a Roman Catholic, he has long attended Protestant evangelical services with his family." Irrelevant details.
I consider the evaluating paragraphs, starting with "North remains .... etc" as too hagiographical. This is not balanced analysis. Why not delete?
The article also has too many categories. AdeleivdVelden ( talk) 13:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
The final paragraph about drug running states "North has consistently denied any involvement with drug trafficking, stating on Fox’s Hannity and Colmes, “…nobody in the U.S. government, going all the way back to the earliest days of this under Jimmy Carter, ever had anything to do with running drugs.”[1]
The quote used is incomplete. The giving quote in the source cited is, "The fact is nobody in the government of the United States, going all the way back to the earliest days of this under Jimmy Carter, ever had anything to do with running drugs to support the Nicaraguan resistance. Nobody in the government of the United States. I will stand on that to my grave."
Leaving out "...to support the Nicaraguan resistance." Seems to alter the meaning of the quote, does anyone else agree? Kumlekar ( talk) 03:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I find it interesting that no mention is made of the fact that the USA was convicted by the world court of state sponsored terrorism in its support of the Contra's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States
This makes the entire paragraph justifying Oliver North's actions in supporting the terror campaign nothing more that a politically motivated diatribe divorced from the facts. It should be removed.
The facts are - according the World Court and United Nations - that the USA was running a terror campaign that totally destroyed the Nicaraguan economy. and that Oliver North was de facto the leading terrorist fund raiser for that terror campaign.
Oliver North's clear, convictable, role as an international terrorist and war criminal (while being a national hero in the US media) is often used to show the dichotomy between US media analysis and that of the rest of the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.138.1.245 ( talk) 16:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Is he married?
Does he have children? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.38.212.50 ( talk) 02:26, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I suggest that the FAIR-sourced statement in the article be deleted per this inasmuch as FAIR should not be used for contentious statements in BLPs.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 03:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
This is one of the worst biographical articles on WIKI. He went to college at the US Naval Academy with an interesting class. He served in Vietnam with interesting people. This is a persecution page, not a biography. Will somebody please fix or I will suggest removal until there substantial information to this. I don't even like the guy, especially now that he is on 'fixed' news, but this a railroad job. Msjayhawk ( talk) 00:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
You are both idiots you only know what you have read neither are old enough to even witness any of this. In the trials he was being "railroaded" and acted as the "fall guy" for the government. Only absent minded liberals would believe any different. This "summery report" is very accurate. One other thing referring to FOX NEWS as "Fixed News" is nothing more than proving my point. Keep believing the liberal networks and you can fall with the rest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.102.170.238 ( talk) 05:38, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
I agree that his USMC career, as distinguished as it is, needs some coverage as does his authorship of the notorious Rex84, which has a decent, but short wikipedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.208.28 ( talk) 21:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
A large "Early life and career" paragraph was repeatedly deleted by an anonymous user. The last time seems to have been on March 26, 2010 ( see change here). Apparently the material has not been restored since that time. I do not know enough about the subject to decide what should be restored, but biographies like this one typically include some background about the early years of the person, including education and early career. olivier ( talk) 12:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I would mention his appearance on Buckley's show 'Firing Line', in the '70's, giving the perspective of a front-line 'muddy boots' combat officer in Vietnam. 75.10.249.4 ( talk) 04:04, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
There should be some mention of North's co-authorship (with John Brinkerhoff) of the notorious martial law plan "Rex84" which already has a wikipedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.208.28 ( talk) 21:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
The sentence containing the phrase "deep personal committment" needs attribution, without which the article fails to maintan a neutral point of view. David F ( talk) 01:25, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Why is there no reference to North's secretary, Fawn Hall, in this article? Since there is a noncontroversial Wikipedia article for her already, this deficiency would be addressed by simply adding a link to her article. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Timoporges (
talk •
contribs)
17:53, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
This entire section seems based on primary sources, with no web links, and an IMDB link. My reading of BLP leads me to believe that not only are the sources inappropriate for such a large section of the article, but the predominance of this material seriously skews the article. ZHurlihee ( talk) 21:26, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
You will have to pardon me for the lack of an indent, but this could get lengthy.
I dont think my understanding is wrong. From WP:BLP:
The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia rests with the person who adds or restores material.
The burden of evidence would appear to lie with you to argue that the material can stay, not on me that it should go. But, in the spirit of cooperation, I will make a sound case for striking the material
The first 4 sources in the section are all to original documents.
Since there are no hyperlinks to them, we cannot evaluate if the material in the article actually matches the documents, but even if we could WP:BLPPRIMARY states the following about the use of original documents like this:
Exercise caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses. Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies.
Since I do not see any secondary sources providing any interpretation of these it would seem to be prohibited to use them.
I would certainly encourage additional opinions on this, but for the time being the material needs to be removed. ZHurlihee ( talk) 20:17, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Anyone know anything about how North's tenure with the Marine Corps ended? I cannot find anything indicating an honorable, dishonorable, and/or less-than-honorable discharge. Hmm... -- Grahamdubya ( talk) 02:39, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
LTC Oliver North retired from the US Marines in 1989. I could not find an exact date of retirement — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.235.135.115 ( talk) 23:49, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
He is also a syndicated columnist with Creators Syndicate. How do I add that without it getting taken down? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikicreate91 ( talk • contribs) 17:18, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I see this line:
"and his large military oysters were taken from his corpus to be destroyed at a later time."
I tried to delete it as vandalism, but it got restored? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.40.12.149 ( talk) 16:49, 29 October 2012 (UTC)