If it became extinct by 1900, the possibility of finding a photo is quite slim. What is wrong with the painting currently displayed? 64.231.115.217 23:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)Duke
I have redirected "Old English Terrier" to what the dog is known as today -- the Fell Terrier or Patterdale terrier. The term "Old English Terrier" was a shorthand for "Old English Broken-Coated terrier" which later became the Kennel Club Welsh Terrier and the non-Kennel Club Fell Terrier or Patterdale terrier; both breeds still exist today and commonly found in the hunt field.
The Old English Terrier is NOT a white dog, and it is not the English White Terrier (a dog known by that name by Vero Shaw, Rawdon Briggs, Brian Plummer and every other dog writer I am aware of).
The original "Old English Terrier" post plagiarised, without attribution the breed description of an Englisg White Terrier from Rawdon Lee Briggs' "Modern Dogs" (1894), and quoted no source for its incorrect assertions about the history of the breed. I have left in Briggs' breed description in the English White Terrier post on Wiki (with attribution, of course), and also quoted extensively from Brigg's decription of that breed and its history. Briggs was a top field dog expert and show ring judge during the entire time that the English White Terrier was a breed. Most of the folks interested in the Black and Tan and English White Terrier are folks cobbling up fake histories for fighting dog breeds, none of which have anything to do with either the Black and Tan terrier or the English White Terrier. - PBurns
- PB
Headphonos was asked to come up with a source for his assertion that the "Old English Terrier is the same as the English white terrier. He could cite any source from 1860-1920 when the terrier was extent, or any source from the working terrier literature (i.e. those who hunt their terriers), but not the bulldog literature which is notoriously wrong and full of pretenders. I noted three sources for my claim from the first group (Rawdon Lee, Vero Shaw and Leighton), and two from the latter (Plummer and Fier-Murza). Here are the citations offered by Headphonos, which are being deleted as they do not support his claim or are otherwise laughable:
Bottom line: There is no source for Headphonos' claim, and it is being deleted for what it apparently is -- bunk. - PBurns3711
Headphonos fails to cite reliable sources. As the Wikipedia guidlines make clear:
Unfortunately, those are NOT the sources Headphonos cites. Instead, he has engaged in a revert war, again counter to Wikipedia guidelines.
In fact, this was done, noting that the Old English Terrier is, in fact, another dog that was far heavier that the toy dog that is the English White Terrier. Headphonos answer to this was to simply "revert" to an incorrect and poorly supported allegation. The above appears to be from 18:56, January 15, 2007 PBurns3711.
PBurns3711 - I agree, completely. I am all for reliable sources. You'll find my participation in at least 3 recent AfDs regarding the bulldogs; sometimes I'm for keeping, sometimes for deletion, depending on my research. I mention the bulldog "mess" since I see a similar kind of "mess" with some of the terriers; Headphonos is involved with articles from each of these dog groups. Keesiewonder 01:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I am not exactly sure why the Old English Terrier article keeps getting redirected to the White English Terrier article. The White English Terrier is a terrier breed that was created in the late 1800's while the Old English Terrier was created in the 1700's. The Old English Terrier was crossed with the Old English Bulldog to create most of today's Bull and Terrier breeds. The fact that most of the Bull Terrier breeds are far older than the White English Terrier should give enough pause so that one can understand and grasp that a dog create over a century later cannot be the foundation stock of much older breeds.
It is my hope that objective and educational reasoning will prevail concerning the Old English Terrier vs. the English White Terrier. They are not the same breed and they never have been.
There is only one Old English Terrier registered with a Registry, and that is not the White English Terrier. Working terriers ( talk) 04:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I suspect that the three editors that keep editing this article are the same person ie: sockpuppets: User:Working terriers, User:NationalTerriersClub, User:PuppetMasterKnls, User:Rascal43. Chessy999 ( talk) 20:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The white english terrier is not an "Old English Terrier", nor is the white english terrier even remotely related to one. Working terriers ( talk) 22:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The White English Terrier was created in the 1860's, yet the Old English Bulldog was extinct decades before that. The old english Terrier's were bred to these Old English Bulldogs in the 1700's. The cross created the Bull and Terrier in the 1700's. To arbitrarily declare that the White English Terrier was the terrier use in the 1700's to create the Bull and Terrier is outright deceitful. There is only one Old English Terrier registered with any registry, and that is the Old English Terrier registered by the National Terriers Club LLC. The White English Terrier was never registered with any registry, or by any registry, as an Old English Terrier. Working terriers ( talk) 12:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey Donald (Working Terriers), why do you insist on putting up pictures of Pit Bulls on this page. You are really diminishing the quality and reliability of the dog pages on wikipedia. Dablyputs ( talk) 20:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
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Following (unopposed) consensus in this discussion, this page was redirected to Black and Tan Terrier. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 10:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
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If it became extinct by 1900, the possibility of finding a photo is quite slim. What is wrong with the painting currently displayed? 64.231.115.217 23:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)Duke
I have redirected "Old English Terrier" to what the dog is known as today -- the Fell Terrier or Patterdale terrier. The term "Old English Terrier" was a shorthand for "Old English Broken-Coated terrier" which later became the Kennel Club Welsh Terrier and the non-Kennel Club Fell Terrier or Patterdale terrier; both breeds still exist today and commonly found in the hunt field.
The Old English Terrier is NOT a white dog, and it is not the English White Terrier (a dog known by that name by Vero Shaw, Rawdon Briggs, Brian Plummer and every other dog writer I am aware of).
The original "Old English Terrier" post plagiarised, without attribution the breed description of an Englisg White Terrier from Rawdon Lee Briggs' "Modern Dogs" (1894), and quoted no source for its incorrect assertions about the history of the breed. I have left in Briggs' breed description in the English White Terrier post on Wiki (with attribution, of course), and also quoted extensively from Brigg's decription of that breed and its history. Briggs was a top field dog expert and show ring judge during the entire time that the English White Terrier was a breed. Most of the folks interested in the Black and Tan and English White Terrier are folks cobbling up fake histories for fighting dog breeds, none of which have anything to do with either the Black and Tan terrier or the English White Terrier. - PBurns
- PB
Headphonos was asked to come up with a source for his assertion that the "Old English Terrier is the same as the English white terrier. He could cite any source from 1860-1920 when the terrier was extent, or any source from the working terrier literature (i.e. those who hunt their terriers), but not the bulldog literature which is notoriously wrong and full of pretenders. I noted three sources for my claim from the first group (Rawdon Lee, Vero Shaw and Leighton), and two from the latter (Plummer and Fier-Murza). Here are the citations offered by Headphonos, which are being deleted as they do not support his claim or are otherwise laughable:
Bottom line: There is no source for Headphonos' claim, and it is being deleted for what it apparently is -- bunk. - PBurns3711
Headphonos fails to cite reliable sources. As the Wikipedia guidlines make clear:
Unfortunately, those are NOT the sources Headphonos cites. Instead, he has engaged in a revert war, again counter to Wikipedia guidelines.
In fact, this was done, noting that the Old English Terrier is, in fact, another dog that was far heavier that the toy dog that is the English White Terrier. Headphonos answer to this was to simply "revert" to an incorrect and poorly supported allegation. The above appears to be from 18:56, January 15, 2007 PBurns3711.
PBurns3711 - I agree, completely. I am all for reliable sources. You'll find my participation in at least 3 recent AfDs regarding the bulldogs; sometimes I'm for keeping, sometimes for deletion, depending on my research. I mention the bulldog "mess" since I see a similar kind of "mess" with some of the terriers; Headphonos is involved with articles from each of these dog groups. Keesiewonder 01:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I am not exactly sure why the Old English Terrier article keeps getting redirected to the White English Terrier article. The White English Terrier is a terrier breed that was created in the late 1800's while the Old English Terrier was created in the 1700's. The Old English Terrier was crossed with the Old English Bulldog to create most of today's Bull and Terrier breeds. The fact that most of the Bull Terrier breeds are far older than the White English Terrier should give enough pause so that one can understand and grasp that a dog create over a century later cannot be the foundation stock of much older breeds.
It is my hope that objective and educational reasoning will prevail concerning the Old English Terrier vs. the English White Terrier. They are not the same breed and they never have been.
There is only one Old English Terrier registered with a Registry, and that is not the White English Terrier. Working terriers ( talk) 04:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I suspect that the three editors that keep editing this article are the same person ie: sockpuppets: User:Working terriers, User:NationalTerriersClub, User:PuppetMasterKnls, User:Rascal43. Chessy999 ( talk) 20:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The white english terrier is not an "Old English Terrier", nor is the white english terrier even remotely related to one. Working terriers ( talk) 22:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The White English Terrier was created in the 1860's, yet the Old English Bulldog was extinct decades before that. The old english Terrier's were bred to these Old English Bulldogs in the 1700's. The cross created the Bull and Terrier in the 1700's. To arbitrarily declare that the White English Terrier was the terrier use in the 1700's to create the Bull and Terrier is outright deceitful. There is only one Old English Terrier registered with any registry, and that is the Old English Terrier registered by the National Terriers Club LLC. The White English Terrier was never registered with any registry, or by any registry, as an Old English Terrier. Working terriers ( talk) 12:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey Donald (Working Terriers), why do you insist on putting up pictures of Pit Bulls on this page. You are really diminishing the quality and reliability of the dog pages on wikipedia. Dablyputs ( talk) 20:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Old English Terrier. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:18, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Following (unopposed) consensus in this discussion, this page was redirected to Black and Tan Terrier. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 10:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)