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I wonder if there are english articles that speak of such thing?? Any way for something to apear on wikipedia there shoud be western scholari articles. isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.158.200.135 ( talk) 22:30, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
This article, whilst very well put together, is not an explanation of what the 'Old Azari' language is/was, but rather a thinly veiled argument from linguistic and historical evidence that Iranian Azeribajan is 'originally' Iranian, and that the Turkic influences exemplified by it's contemporary language are a more recent development.
This is a long-running theme in Iranian nationalist historiography, which I believe started with Kasravi. Iranian nationalists are rather prominent on wikipedia and this seems to be one of their creations.
That's not to say that it's a bad article. It is an excellent summary of the arguments, important in Iranian historiography, for considering Azerbaijan to be 'inherently Iranian'.
I would suggest changing the title to reflect the article's nature, calling it something like 'Integrative Nationalist Histriography'. Actually, that's a little inaccessible, but you get the picture!
Vernon Francis Gallagher ( talk) 11:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Why the article spells Azari and Azeri? Should we agree on one spelling for the sake of consistency or that will be problematic? Kiumars 05:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
ummm, so what happened to that language? all of those people changed their language from persian to turkish at that time without any educational system? at the time that not every body had access to paper? or any media? and the language changed in the north also?
He makes the country united by making one nation and one single language...Pure persians...sounds fascistic! Going back deep in the history... and his son, and the next regime followed the plan and still going on.
in more than 90 years they didn't lose their language with all that modern educational system and media and internet, you don't expect me to belive they converted to turksih from persian in the past without any books and stuff, that today not even one persian lives in the azerbaijan from that glourious empire, -the short period killer empire-.
( Anooshahpour 23:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC))
hey Anooshahpour (which is persian name),why you make this artice political. if any part of it has lie about history say this part is wrong ;) any way whatever reza shah did it was 10 time less that the stupid thing pan-turkist did. atta-turk change name of 2 city from kurdish and armenian to turkish. first peresiden of azerbaijan said (around 1991) turk are living here from baku to kermanshah for 100,000 yeras !!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.2.238 ( talk) 19:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey, -----> old fashion lieing. Nothing more is being expected from "the Islamic Republic of Iran" or "Persian chauvinism".
who said these opinions are from islamic republic of iran
ghajars lost azarbaijan and they are selling all of iran in fact our government is your best friend dear!!!! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
85.198.23.115 (
talk)
14:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
I moved the page to Old Azari language because ancient refers to the time prior to the middle ages, Azari was still used well into the 17th century at the least. Hajji Piruz 13:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I could not find any reliable source on Azari. In the article, the references were named as of Iranica, but they redirects to http://www.azargoshnasp.net/ directory which does not seem to be a reliable source. On the other hand, the Ethnologue does not have any entry for Azari. You can check from the Ethnologue reports 1 and 2. For this reason, i'm in favor of adding an OR-tag until it's verified. Even the Google search does not find anything. Regards. E104421 02:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
مسعودي در التنبيه و الاشراف مينويسد:
فالفرس أمة حد بلادها الجبال من الماهات وغيرها وآذربيجان إلى ما يلي بلاد أرمينية وأران والبيلقان إلى دربند وهو الباب والأبواب والري وطبرستن والمسقط والشابران وجرجان وابرشهر، وهي نيسابور، وهراة ومرو وغير ذلك من بلاد خراسان وسجستان وكرمان وفارس والأهواز، وما اتصل بذلك من أرض الأعاجم في هذا الوقت وكل هذه البلاد كانت مملكة واحدة ملكها ملك واحد ولسانها واحد، إلا أنهم كانوا يتباينون في شيء يسير من اللغات وذلك أن اللغة إنما تكون واحدة بأن تكون حروفها التي تكتب واحدة وتأليف حروفها تأليف واحد، وإن اختلفت بعد ذلك في سائر الأشياء الأخر كالفهلوية والدرية والآذرية وغيرها من لغات الفرس
In Persian:
پارسيان قومي بودند كه قلمروشان ديار جبال بود از ماهات و غيره و آذربايجان تا مجاور ارمنيه و اران و بيلقان تا دربند كه باب و ابواب است و ري و طبرستان و مسقط و شابران و گرگان و ابرشهر كه نيشابور است و هرات و مرو و ديگر ولايتهاي خراسان و سيستان و كرمان و فارس و اهواز با ديگر سرزمين عجمان كه در وقت حاضر به اين ولايتها پيوسته است، همهي اين ولايتها يك مملكت بود، پادشاهاش يكي بود و زباناش يكي بود، فقط در بعضي كلمات تفاوت داشتند، زيرا وقتي حروفي كه زبان را بدان مينويسند يكي باشد، زبان يكي است وگر چه در چيزهاي ديگر تفاوت داشته باشد، چون پهلوي و دري و آذري و ديگر زبانهاي پارسي
In English:
The Persians are a people whose borders are the Mahat Mountains and Azarbaijan up to Armenian and Aran, and Bayleqan and Darband, and Ray and Tabaristan and Masqat and Shabaran and Jorjan and Abarshahr, and that is Nishabur, and Herat and Marv and other places in land of Khorasan, and Sejistan and Kerman and Fars and Ahvaz and other Persian lands that has now been connected to these lands. All these lands were once one kingdom with one sovereign and one language although the language differed slightly. The language, however, is one, in that its letters are written the same way and used the same way in composition. There are, then, different languages such as Pahlavi, Dari, Azari, as well as other Persian languages. (based on Al Mas'udi, Kitab al-Tanbih wa-l-Ishraf, De Goeje, M.J. (ed.), Leiden, Brill, 1894, pp. 77-8 with the above Arabic and Persian translations).
Masudi lived in the 10th century. Another classical source is Yaqut who also mentions the language Azarriyah. I will update this article soon, but I think for now you can see it is not OR (Iqrar Aliyev is practically the most well known historian of the republic of Azerbaijan) and Vladimir Minorsky does not need an introduction. -- alidoostzadeh 02:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Please, provide precise data as to which villages in Iranian Azerbaijan use this language, which allegedly was called "Azari" prior to Azeri Turkic. Atabek ( talk) 23:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Don't know who added this reference earlier, but 4-5 references made to Yarshater article are incorrect. First, Yarshater never authored article with such name in Iranica, secondly the Iranica article talkes mostly about Azeri Turkic, never refers to "Azari" language. Atabek ( talk) 01:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC) He does, he uses the term: "Āḏarī (Ar. al-āḏarīya) was the Iranian language of Azerbaijan before the spread of the Turkish language, commonly called Azeri, in the region. " See here: http://www.iranica.com/newsite/index.isc?Article=http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/unicode/v3f2/v3f2a088.html
But you could be write about the name of the article..It might just be called "The Iranian language of Azerbaijan" but in the work, he uses the term Āḏarī many times. -- alidoostzadeh ( talk) 01:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Please change the part where it says, Qashqai were a Kurdish tribe and spoke Kurdish until being Turkified its nothing but a total fabrication. -- 86.139.49.107 ( talk) 11:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The following must be checked.
...their speech is not attractive.
Actually I think that should be even removed from the article. How it was defined not to be attractive? This is just opinion of one individual and shouldn't be placed in the encyclopedia. --
Gulmammad (
talk)
03:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
.
Different parts of this article state completely different dates for when this language became extinct. It seized to be the dominant language of Azerbaijan by the 14th century, then a few paragraphs later it says it seized to be the dominant language of Azerbaijan by the 17th century when the Safavids came to power. Please be clear. This is all very confusing! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.5.148 ( talk) 21:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I have read the discussion here, and I will be thankful, if you as people, who know the subject, give me the explanations and help with the sources. I noticed that the article in English is named "Azari", but in Russian it is named "Azeri", and the discussion here proves that it is recognized by linguistics as other language. Please explain, what is correct. Thank you in advance, -- Zara-arush ( talk) 23:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Where is New Azari language? Esc2003 ( talk) 14:31, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Where is the page of Ruhi Onarjani ???
Also it would be great if there is any description about his Old Azeri compendium !
Or At Least Any work composed in Old Azeri !!!
Thanks very Much !!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.186.198.47 ( talk) 09:44, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Hi, where i can find sources of this section. Should it be removed? Thanks for answer:)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Page views of this article over the last 90 days:
|
I wonder if there are english articles that speak of such thing?? Any way for something to apear on wikipedia there shoud be western scholari articles. isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.158.200.135 ( talk) 22:30, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
This article, whilst very well put together, is not an explanation of what the 'Old Azari' language is/was, but rather a thinly veiled argument from linguistic and historical evidence that Iranian Azeribajan is 'originally' Iranian, and that the Turkic influences exemplified by it's contemporary language are a more recent development.
This is a long-running theme in Iranian nationalist historiography, which I believe started with Kasravi. Iranian nationalists are rather prominent on wikipedia and this seems to be one of their creations.
That's not to say that it's a bad article. It is an excellent summary of the arguments, important in Iranian historiography, for considering Azerbaijan to be 'inherently Iranian'.
I would suggest changing the title to reflect the article's nature, calling it something like 'Integrative Nationalist Histriography'. Actually, that's a little inaccessible, but you get the picture!
Vernon Francis Gallagher ( talk) 11:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Why the article spells Azari and Azeri? Should we agree on one spelling for the sake of consistency or that will be problematic? Kiumars 05:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
ummm, so what happened to that language? all of those people changed their language from persian to turkish at that time without any educational system? at the time that not every body had access to paper? or any media? and the language changed in the north also?
He makes the country united by making one nation and one single language...Pure persians...sounds fascistic! Going back deep in the history... and his son, and the next regime followed the plan and still going on.
in more than 90 years they didn't lose their language with all that modern educational system and media and internet, you don't expect me to belive they converted to turksih from persian in the past without any books and stuff, that today not even one persian lives in the azerbaijan from that glourious empire, -the short period killer empire-.
( Anooshahpour 23:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC))
hey Anooshahpour (which is persian name),why you make this artice political. if any part of it has lie about history say this part is wrong ;) any way whatever reza shah did it was 10 time less that the stupid thing pan-turkist did. atta-turk change name of 2 city from kurdish and armenian to turkish. first peresiden of azerbaijan said (around 1991) turk are living here from baku to kermanshah for 100,000 yeras !!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.2.238 ( talk) 19:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey, -----> old fashion lieing. Nothing more is being expected from "the Islamic Republic of Iran" or "Persian chauvinism".
who said these opinions are from islamic republic of iran
ghajars lost azarbaijan and they are selling all of iran in fact our government is your best friend dear!!!! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
85.198.23.115 (
talk)
14:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
I moved the page to Old Azari language because ancient refers to the time prior to the middle ages, Azari was still used well into the 17th century at the least. Hajji Piruz 13:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I could not find any reliable source on Azari. In the article, the references were named as of Iranica, but they redirects to http://www.azargoshnasp.net/ directory which does not seem to be a reliable source. On the other hand, the Ethnologue does not have any entry for Azari. You can check from the Ethnologue reports 1 and 2. For this reason, i'm in favor of adding an OR-tag until it's verified. Even the Google search does not find anything. Regards. E104421 02:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
مسعودي در التنبيه و الاشراف مينويسد:
فالفرس أمة حد بلادها الجبال من الماهات وغيرها وآذربيجان إلى ما يلي بلاد أرمينية وأران والبيلقان إلى دربند وهو الباب والأبواب والري وطبرستن والمسقط والشابران وجرجان وابرشهر، وهي نيسابور، وهراة ومرو وغير ذلك من بلاد خراسان وسجستان وكرمان وفارس والأهواز، وما اتصل بذلك من أرض الأعاجم في هذا الوقت وكل هذه البلاد كانت مملكة واحدة ملكها ملك واحد ولسانها واحد، إلا أنهم كانوا يتباينون في شيء يسير من اللغات وذلك أن اللغة إنما تكون واحدة بأن تكون حروفها التي تكتب واحدة وتأليف حروفها تأليف واحد، وإن اختلفت بعد ذلك في سائر الأشياء الأخر كالفهلوية والدرية والآذرية وغيرها من لغات الفرس
In Persian:
پارسيان قومي بودند كه قلمروشان ديار جبال بود از ماهات و غيره و آذربايجان تا مجاور ارمنيه و اران و بيلقان تا دربند كه باب و ابواب است و ري و طبرستان و مسقط و شابران و گرگان و ابرشهر كه نيشابور است و هرات و مرو و ديگر ولايتهاي خراسان و سيستان و كرمان و فارس و اهواز با ديگر سرزمين عجمان كه در وقت حاضر به اين ولايتها پيوسته است، همهي اين ولايتها يك مملكت بود، پادشاهاش يكي بود و زباناش يكي بود، فقط در بعضي كلمات تفاوت داشتند، زيرا وقتي حروفي كه زبان را بدان مينويسند يكي باشد، زبان يكي است وگر چه در چيزهاي ديگر تفاوت داشته باشد، چون پهلوي و دري و آذري و ديگر زبانهاي پارسي
In English:
The Persians are a people whose borders are the Mahat Mountains and Azarbaijan up to Armenian and Aran, and Bayleqan and Darband, and Ray and Tabaristan and Masqat and Shabaran and Jorjan and Abarshahr, and that is Nishabur, and Herat and Marv and other places in land of Khorasan, and Sejistan and Kerman and Fars and Ahvaz and other Persian lands that has now been connected to these lands. All these lands were once one kingdom with one sovereign and one language although the language differed slightly. The language, however, is one, in that its letters are written the same way and used the same way in composition. There are, then, different languages such as Pahlavi, Dari, Azari, as well as other Persian languages. (based on Al Mas'udi, Kitab al-Tanbih wa-l-Ishraf, De Goeje, M.J. (ed.), Leiden, Brill, 1894, pp. 77-8 with the above Arabic and Persian translations).
Masudi lived in the 10th century. Another classical source is Yaqut who also mentions the language Azarriyah. I will update this article soon, but I think for now you can see it is not OR (Iqrar Aliyev is practically the most well known historian of the republic of Azerbaijan) and Vladimir Minorsky does not need an introduction. -- alidoostzadeh 02:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Please, provide precise data as to which villages in Iranian Azerbaijan use this language, which allegedly was called "Azari" prior to Azeri Turkic. Atabek ( talk) 23:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Don't know who added this reference earlier, but 4-5 references made to Yarshater article are incorrect. First, Yarshater never authored article with such name in Iranica, secondly the Iranica article talkes mostly about Azeri Turkic, never refers to "Azari" language. Atabek ( talk) 01:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC) He does, he uses the term: "Āḏarī (Ar. al-āḏarīya) was the Iranian language of Azerbaijan before the spread of the Turkish language, commonly called Azeri, in the region. " See here: http://www.iranica.com/newsite/index.isc?Article=http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/unicode/v3f2/v3f2a088.html
But you could be write about the name of the article..It might just be called "The Iranian language of Azerbaijan" but in the work, he uses the term Āḏarī many times. -- alidoostzadeh ( talk) 01:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Please change the part where it says, Qashqai were a Kurdish tribe and spoke Kurdish until being Turkified its nothing but a total fabrication. -- 86.139.49.107 ( talk) 11:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The following must be checked.
...their speech is not attractive.
Actually I think that should be even removed from the article. How it was defined not to be attractive? This is just opinion of one individual and shouldn't be placed in the encyclopedia. --
Gulmammad (
talk)
03:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
.
Different parts of this article state completely different dates for when this language became extinct. It seized to be the dominant language of Azerbaijan by the 14th century, then a few paragraphs later it says it seized to be the dominant language of Azerbaijan by the 17th century when the Safavids came to power. Please be clear. This is all very confusing! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.5.148 ( talk) 21:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I have read the discussion here, and I will be thankful, if you as people, who know the subject, give me the explanations and help with the sources. I noticed that the article in English is named "Azari", but in Russian it is named "Azeri", and the discussion here proves that it is recognized by linguistics as other language. Please explain, what is correct. Thank you in advance, -- Zara-arush ( talk) 23:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Where is New Azari language? Esc2003 ( talk) 14:31, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Where is the page of Ruhi Onarjani ???
Also it would be great if there is any description about his Old Azeri compendium !
Or At Least Any work composed in Old Azeri !!!
Thanks very Much !!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.186.198.47 ( talk) 09:44, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Hi, where i can find sources of this section. Should it be removed? Thanks for answer:)