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I've been thinking that maybe we should split the article one more time, and make a new article for the dialectology and historical linguistic information. The dialect section as it is currectly kind of overwhelms the article (well...not really, but it takes up a disproportionate amount of space), and with a separate article we might be able to expand the discussion of the dialectology a bit. Since I just discovered I have semi-access to the Handbook of North American Indians volumes published by the Smithsonian, I've just been able to copy down several good tables of some salient dialectal differences in Anishinaabemowin, as well as some other relevant things. A separate article would also allow the historical linguistic section to be expanded; the only problem there is I don't know how much work has actually been published on the historical evolution of Ojibwe. Actually, since Bloomfield used Eastern Ojibwe as one of the four languages to reconstruct Proto-(Central-)Algonquian, he does more or less lay out the historical sound changes, although not in a neat little list. He goes into more detail in his 1946 article, which I'll try to comb through for stuff on this.
Before I go further with these thought trains, though, I'd like to know other people's opinions on this. Is it necessary? Would this article benefit? Would the presentation of the material be improved? Take care, -- Miskwito 07:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Proto-Ojibwe
CJLippert 04:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
1. I've added a section "Classification" to provide background as well as a list of dialects, with justification coming from contemprorary research in Valentine 1994. I've included references for all of this material. Hint hint.
2. I've added a section "Status of Potawatomi" to give context on the Ojibwe-Potawatomi relationship. In particular it makes clear that while assuming that Ojibwe-Potawatomi is a genetic subgroup, in fact no one has done the homework on detailing this.
3. I've added a {{refimprove}} tag - the lack of sourcing on virtually all the Ojibwe pages is truly amazing.
Thanks. John. Jomeara421 ( talk) 02:16, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
1. There is no justification for having a section on Michif in this article. The
Michif language (much of which was written by Rich Rhodes, who has provided much of linguistic description of Michif) makes it clear that Michif has some words borrowed from Ojibwe, but that's all.
2. The article on
Bungee language makes it clear that Bungee is a variety of English with borrowing from a variety of sources, one of which is Ojibwe.
So while these two might merit a passing mention in a paragraph about borrowing, the way they are presented in the article is not accurate, and they should be removed.
Thanks. John. Jomeara421 ( talk) 02:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Rational for English Spelling “Ojibwe” in title.
As part of the project proposed in "Merger Project" on the Talk:Ojibwa language page I have renamed this page, using the spelling "Ojibwe". Here is the rationale for this spelling:
This is now the most commonly used English spelling in academics works by scholars of Ojibwe: John Nichols (multiple publications), John Nichols and Earl Nyholm, J. Randolph Valentine (multiple publications). It is also the spelling that most closely reflects the pronunciation of the word in the language itself. It is also widely used in other contemporary linguistically oriented publications, for multiple dialects.
As well, this is already used for the titles of articles such as Ojibwe grammar, Ojibwe writing systems, and Ojibwe phonology.
John Jomeara421 ( talk) 18:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I am proposing to reorganize this article so that it reflects the most current analysis of the relationships between the Ojibwe dialects, i.e. the analysis in Valentine 1994 (in the References section for the article). So doing will improve the article and make it more useful for readers not familiar with Ojibwe. The overall structure will be maintained, i.e. a summary for each dialect, linked to a main article on that dialect. Development of the main articles for each dialect is another project.
I am proposing to:
I will leave the "Language code correspondence table", although the source given as "Linguasphere" appears to be no longer available, and "Freelang" does not link to a discussion of dialects. Thanks. John. Jomeara421 ( talk) 01:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
As their fur trading with the French increased the Ojibwas’ power, the Anishinaabe language became the trade language of the Great Lakes region, and was for hundreds of years an extremely significant presence in the northern United States. As its result a pidgin form of the Anishinaabemowin, known as "Broken Ojibwa" or "Broken Oghibbeway", developed, relying on Anishinaabemowin for its vocabulary. The Bungee language, a dialect of English influenced by other languages, also developed during this era. However, it is often debated upon if the influence was the Anishinaabe language with other languages or a Cree language with other languages.
The only language in the Neshnabémwen group is the Potawatomi language, also known as Bodéwadmimwen. Neshnabémwen, which like the Nishnaabemwin, the name indicates this language or dialect exhibits a great deal of vowel syncope. Unlike the Nishnaabemwin, Neshnabémwen also reduces the quality of the unstressed short vowels not lost in syncope to a schwa. In addition, Neshnabémwen retains in some words a postconsonantal "y", which is no longer found in any of the other Ojibwe group languages. Because of the development of these differences and some vocabulary wording differences of significance since the contact period, such as large-scale borrowing from the Sac and Fox, though Potawatomi was at one time a full member of the Ojibwe language group, it is now considered a separate language. However, among the Anishinaabeg, many still consider the Potawatomi language as a dialect of Anishinaabemowin.
This section needs expansion. You can help by
adding to it. (June 2008) |
Broken Ojibwa or Broken Oghibbeway was a pidgin form of the Anishinaabe language, more specifically the Odaawaa dialect of the Anishinaabe language, that developed during the Fur trade era and used as a lingua franca among traders and Indians from various tribes such as the Menominis and the Ho-chunks. During the height of its use, Broken Ojibwa was found primarily in Wisconsin and eastern Minnesota but also along the Mississippi River waterway.
The Bungee language or Bungee dialect, used by the Nakawē Métis population, further incorporates Cree, Oji-cree and Saulteaux with French, English, Scottish Gaelic and other languages of the northern Great Plains. Many communities write using western Cree-Ojibwe syllabics, but others use the Saulteaux-Cree Roman. Due to this mixture, it is often debated whether Bungee is a mixutre of Cree with other languages, or a mixture of Anishinaabemowin with other languages.
Like the Bungee language, the Michif language used by the Nakawē Métis population is a mixed language. It is, however, composed primarily of Cree and French with very strong influences from the Anishinaabe and Assiniboine languages.
As it stands the article claims that non-contiguous dialects at the margins -- Odawa, Algonquin, and Severn are not very mutually intelligible. Has this been systematically studied? I have seen Severn and Algonquin speakers engage in conversation without difficulty and without prior exposure to each others' dialects (specifically Big Trout Lake and Rapid Lake). On more than one occasion, with different people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crussell221 ( talk • contribs) 17:15, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
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I've been thinking that maybe we should split the article one more time, and make a new article for the dialectology and historical linguistic information. The dialect section as it is currectly kind of overwhelms the article (well...not really, but it takes up a disproportionate amount of space), and with a separate article we might be able to expand the discussion of the dialectology a bit. Since I just discovered I have semi-access to the Handbook of North American Indians volumes published by the Smithsonian, I've just been able to copy down several good tables of some salient dialectal differences in Anishinaabemowin, as well as some other relevant things. A separate article would also allow the historical linguistic section to be expanded; the only problem there is I don't know how much work has actually been published on the historical evolution of Ojibwe. Actually, since Bloomfield used Eastern Ojibwe as one of the four languages to reconstruct Proto-(Central-)Algonquian, he does more or less lay out the historical sound changes, although not in a neat little list. He goes into more detail in his 1946 article, which I'll try to comb through for stuff on this.
Before I go further with these thought trains, though, I'd like to know other people's opinions on this. Is it necessary? Would this article benefit? Would the presentation of the material be improved? Take care, -- Miskwito 07:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Proto-Ojibwe
CJLippert 04:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
1. I've added a section "Classification" to provide background as well as a list of dialects, with justification coming from contemprorary research in Valentine 1994. I've included references for all of this material. Hint hint.
2. I've added a section "Status of Potawatomi" to give context on the Ojibwe-Potawatomi relationship. In particular it makes clear that while assuming that Ojibwe-Potawatomi is a genetic subgroup, in fact no one has done the homework on detailing this.
3. I've added a {{refimprove}} tag - the lack of sourcing on virtually all the Ojibwe pages is truly amazing.
Thanks. John. Jomeara421 ( talk) 02:16, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
1. There is no justification for having a section on Michif in this article. The
Michif language (much of which was written by Rich Rhodes, who has provided much of linguistic description of Michif) makes it clear that Michif has some words borrowed from Ojibwe, but that's all.
2. The article on
Bungee language makes it clear that Bungee is a variety of English with borrowing from a variety of sources, one of which is Ojibwe.
So while these two might merit a passing mention in a paragraph about borrowing, the way they are presented in the article is not accurate, and they should be removed.
Thanks. John. Jomeara421 ( talk) 02:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Rational for English Spelling “Ojibwe” in title.
As part of the project proposed in "Merger Project" on the Talk:Ojibwa language page I have renamed this page, using the spelling "Ojibwe". Here is the rationale for this spelling:
This is now the most commonly used English spelling in academics works by scholars of Ojibwe: John Nichols (multiple publications), John Nichols and Earl Nyholm, J. Randolph Valentine (multiple publications). It is also the spelling that most closely reflects the pronunciation of the word in the language itself. It is also widely used in other contemporary linguistically oriented publications, for multiple dialects.
As well, this is already used for the titles of articles such as Ojibwe grammar, Ojibwe writing systems, and Ojibwe phonology.
John Jomeara421 ( talk) 18:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I am proposing to reorganize this article so that it reflects the most current analysis of the relationships between the Ojibwe dialects, i.e. the analysis in Valentine 1994 (in the References section for the article). So doing will improve the article and make it more useful for readers not familiar with Ojibwe. The overall structure will be maintained, i.e. a summary for each dialect, linked to a main article on that dialect. Development of the main articles for each dialect is another project.
I am proposing to:
I will leave the "Language code correspondence table", although the source given as "Linguasphere" appears to be no longer available, and "Freelang" does not link to a discussion of dialects. Thanks. John. Jomeara421 ( talk) 01:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
As their fur trading with the French increased the Ojibwas’ power, the Anishinaabe language became the trade language of the Great Lakes region, and was for hundreds of years an extremely significant presence in the northern United States. As its result a pidgin form of the Anishinaabemowin, known as "Broken Ojibwa" or "Broken Oghibbeway", developed, relying on Anishinaabemowin for its vocabulary. The Bungee language, a dialect of English influenced by other languages, also developed during this era. However, it is often debated upon if the influence was the Anishinaabe language with other languages or a Cree language with other languages.
The only language in the Neshnabémwen group is the Potawatomi language, also known as Bodéwadmimwen. Neshnabémwen, which like the Nishnaabemwin, the name indicates this language or dialect exhibits a great deal of vowel syncope. Unlike the Nishnaabemwin, Neshnabémwen also reduces the quality of the unstressed short vowels not lost in syncope to a schwa. In addition, Neshnabémwen retains in some words a postconsonantal "y", which is no longer found in any of the other Ojibwe group languages. Because of the development of these differences and some vocabulary wording differences of significance since the contact period, such as large-scale borrowing from the Sac and Fox, though Potawatomi was at one time a full member of the Ojibwe language group, it is now considered a separate language. However, among the Anishinaabeg, many still consider the Potawatomi language as a dialect of Anishinaabemowin.
This section needs expansion. You can help by
adding to it. (June 2008) |
Broken Ojibwa or Broken Oghibbeway was a pidgin form of the Anishinaabe language, more specifically the Odaawaa dialect of the Anishinaabe language, that developed during the Fur trade era and used as a lingua franca among traders and Indians from various tribes such as the Menominis and the Ho-chunks. During the height of its use, Broken Ojibwa was found primarily in Wisconsin and eastern Minnesota but also along the Mississippi River waterway.
The Bungee language or Bungee dialect, used by the Nakawē Métis population, further incorporates Cree, Oji-cree and Saulteaux with French, English, Scottish Gaelic and other languages of the northern Great Plains. Many communities write using western Cree-Ojibwe syllabics, but others use the Saulteaux-Cree Roman. Due to this mixture, it is often debated whether Bungee is a mixutre of Cree with other languages, or a mixture of Anishinaabemowin with other languages.
Like the Bungee language, the Michif language used by the Nakawē Métis population is a mixed language. It is, however, composed primarily of Cree and French with very strong influences from the Anishinaabe and Assiniboine languages.
As it stands the article claims that non-contiguous dialects at the margins -- Odawa, Algonquin, and Severn are not very mutually intelligible. Has this been systematically studied? I have seen Severn and Algonquin speakers engage in conversation without difficulty and without prior exposure to each others' dialects (specifically Big Trout Lake and Rapid Lake). On more than one occasion, with different people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crussell221 ( talk • contribs) 17:15, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Ojibwe dialects. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:54, 21 July 2016 (UTC)