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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Great_Bulgaria
how is it that turk is older term than Bulgar when great old bulgaria can not be lemon fresh at 600 AD. in order something to be great and old it needs to be at least 100 years old if not more????????????????????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.33.211.25 ( talk) 01:28, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
"The mention of the "six Oghuz tribal union" in the Turkic Orhun inscriptions (6th century) pertains to the unification of the six Turkic tribes which became known as the Oghuz. This was the first written reference to Oghuz, and was dated to the period of the Göktürk empire. The Oghuz community gradually grew larger, uniting more Turkic tribes prior and during the Göktürk establishment.[9]"
Oghuz term ment confediration of tribes, it's not an ethnic group of people. This article is extreamly ahistoric trying to represent an entire Turkic ethnos history as hisotory of Turkmen Oghuz. Article misleadingly states that Gok-Turks were Oghus, Huns were Oghuz and all so on. Term Oghuz is close to Oyghur, nothing more that tribe confediration, it doesn't mean particular tribe group and can mean completely different tribes every time it mentioned.
The first part of article seems sound while second part is just ahistoric something, disconnected from all modern researches world wide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.73.180.253 ( talk) 16:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
"are regarded as one of the major branches" manages to combine peacock words with the passive of non-attribution to offer an information-free puff. Wetman 20:09, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry?
I think the correct comment is:{{cleanup-copyedit}} Gareth Hughes 02:18, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I removed this paragraph from the article:
Throughout history, the Oghuz Turks have founded different nations that have developed political and geographical identities of their own, yet share Oghuz ancestry, culture, history, language and literature. The modern Turkic nations of Azerbaijanis, Turks of Turkey and Turkmen are the three most historical of Oguz Turk peoples.
The second paragraph of the article reads:
The Oghuz Turks are the ancestors of today's western Turks whose numbers are more than 100 million and inhabit areas in western Asia and eastern Europe: Azerbaijanis of the Republic of Azerbaijan and the South Azerbaijan region of Iran, Turks of Turkey and Cyprus, Turkmens of Turkmenistan and northeastern Iran, Qashqay and Khurasani Turks of Iran, Balkan Turks of Greece, Bulgaria and the former Yugoslavia as well as Gauguz (Gokoguz) Turks of Moldova.
Which has all the same information in it already. siafu 16:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think you are mistaken. When I read, I understand that the fist paragraph is related to States formed directly by Oghuz Turks. The second paragraph tells us the lands where they live. I wish you have not removed. Would you please restore? Tengriteg
What is the reason for the vprotect template? siafu 23:58, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
" ... If one looks at the record of Iranian historians during the same period, the scene is similar: a rather barren landscape relieved by a few lofty peaks. In 1927-8 Ahmad Kasravi led the way with the publication of three seminal articles entitled Nizhad va Tabar-i Safaviyya (`The genealogy of the Safavids'); Safaviyya sayyid nabuda and (`The Safavids were not sayyids'); and Baz ham Safaviyya (`The Safavids again')[17]. Kasravi disputed the validity of the `official' Safavid genealogy contained in the Safvat al-Safa and followed by most later Safavid chronicles[18], and argued convincingly that the ancestors of Shaykh Safi al-Din, who founded the Safavid Order (tariqa), were indigenous inhabitants of Iran (az bumiyan-i bastan-i iran budan) and were of pure Aryan stock (juz nizhad-i aryani nadashta and). Today, the consensus among Safavid historians is that the Safavid family hailed from Persian Kurdistan. Kasravi's important articles were published in the journal Ayandeh, which was not readily available in the West, and, despite the fact that they were republished as a pamphlet in 1944, in an expanded and revised form, they unfortunately continued to be overlooked by many historians. These included the Turkish scholar Zeki Velidi Togan who, working on the oldest available MSS. of the Safvat al-Safa, independently reached many of the same conclusions reached by Kasravi thirty years earlier[19]. At the same time, Togan tried to lay to rest the persistent claim by Turkish historians that Shah Isma'il I was a Turk, but this claim resurfaced from time to time in the writings of Turcophiles, such as David Ayalon[20], and was usually based on the fact that Isma'il spoke the Azari dialect of Turkish, which Toynbee calls one of "the vulgar tongues of camp and court"[21], and had written poems in Azari under the pen-name of Khata'i. ..." Roger M. Savory, Professor Emeritus University of Toronto (one of the authors of the "Encyclopaedia Iranica")
As you can read in the text above, the Safavids were not Turkish, and thus, they cannot be considered "Oghuz" ... - Tajik 00:11, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
It is important to remember that, while the Safavid ruling house was likely not Turkic (other than possible Azeri ties through Isma'il's mother, a significant proportion of their Qizilbash forces did consider themselves of Turkic and specifically Oghuz origin. To the extent that the dynasty depended upon these Turkic tribes to maintain power, it could be argued that it was in some sense Turkic/Oghuz. I believe Minorsky made the argument that the Qizilbash can be viewed as the third succession in the line of Turkman dynasties (following the Qara Qoyunlu and the Aq Quyunlu). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.53.11 ( talk) 20:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Gokturks are not of Oguz origin they are beys of Asına tribe overrun by Oguz after death of "Kapağan Han" who rulled oguz with an iron fist (his army was 400 000 horsemen and horsewomen).For this reason Oguz never called themselves as Turks till 15th century(Mehmet II of Ottomans used name Turk). For Ottomans and other oguz tribes ,Turk meaned who lived in Turkestan those times.
I removed Germany, Austria, Belgium, Great Britain, etc. from the list of countries with Oghuz Turk population. The way it was written before would puzzle those who are not familiar with this part of history, and they might think that the Nazis spared the Turks from their concentration camps during WW2! I believe this part of the article should list the countries of traditional settlement of the Oghuz Turks, and not the places of Turkish diaspora after WW2! Also, I have never heard of a country called Gagavuz. Instead, I put Moldova. Also, there is no longer Yugoslavia, I put Serbia instead, there are a small number of ethnic Turks in Serbia, mostly refugees who fled the Albanian ethnic violence in Kosovo. As far as I know, no Turks live in Montenegro, that's why I didn't put "Serbia and Montenegro". The Montenegrins were renowned for their "love" for Turks and Muslims, this is why, even in Ottoman times, no Turks dared to live in that tiny mountainous country). Oh, now I've remembered that I forgot Romania, there is an ethnic Turkish minority in Romanian Dobruja! I wondered whether to remove Greece from the list, because those who are called Turks in Greek Thrace are ethnic Bulgarians of Muslim faith, Pomaks, or Pomakoi in Greek. Still, Greece is a country of traditional Turkish settlement, there were quite a lot of Turks in today's Greece before the Balkan Wars, WW1 and the Greco-Turkish war of the 1920-es. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.11.148.71 ( talk • contribs) 10:42, 15 May 2006.
Thanks,
The source that says that the Oghuz Turks are partial ancestors of today's Turkic speakers is incorrect, and the source is outdated. Genetic testing has since been done, which contradicts this information. Furthermore, I read the source provided and no where does it list the people that are supposedly of partial Oghuz descent, which makes the list in the next sentence complete original research, which is against Wikipedia's policies. Azerbaijani 14:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Is Azerbaijani actually trying to argue that modern Turks and Azerbaijanis have no genetic descent from the Turkic tribes who migrated into those regions in the later middle ages? That seems difficult to defend.
john k
21:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
How about this (I have also shortened the length of the intro to make it more neat. People can click the links to find out the locations of these people; this way, the intro flows very smoothly and sounds a lot nicer and is less messy):
The Oghuz Turks are partial ancestors[1] of some of today's Southwestern Turks and the linguistic ancestors to others, making a combined population of more than 100 million Turkic speakers. These include Azerbaijanis, Turks (of Turkey), Turkish Cypriots, Balkan Turks, Turkmens, Qashqai, Khorasani, and Gagauz.
During Turkic mass-migrations in the 9th through 12th centuries, the Oghuz were among the indigenous Turks of Central Asia who migrated towards western Asia and eastern Europe via Transoxiana. From the 5th century onward, the Oghuz were the founders and rulers of several important Turkic kingdoms and empires, the most notable of them being the Seljuks, and the Ottomans.
Reasonable? Azerbaijani 22:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I have no knowledge of the Turkish language and very little of Turkey and Turks. I started to copyedit this page, but I ran into trouble because I can't tell what some of it means. (Ignorance works to my advantage here, because I will know it when a passage is unclear.) If someone would be kind enough to walk me through the article point by point, I will do what I can to make it read well.
1. To say that the Orghuz "are regarded" seems to mean that their status is in dispute. If so, by whom, and what are the alternate theories?
2. The capital "s" in "Southwestern Turks" implies that there is a well defined classification of Turks by compass orientation, and one of these groups calls themselves the Southwestern Turks.
3. I'm not sure one can be a "linguistic ancestor" in the sense that one can have descendants that can be literally counted along with the direct ancestors. Do these linguistic descendants call themselves "Orghuz Turks"? In other words, is "Orghuz" a term in current use among the Turkish people. Do they identify themselves as Orghuz if asked, or is it more a historical label? Do some of the linguistic descendants retain an ethnic self-image other than Orghuz? You see my confusion. Some of this is answered later in "Anthropology," but I'd like to have a complete picture.
3. Again, "linguistic ancestors of others." Are these "others" ethnic Turks or not? Don't imagine that I care, I just want to get the wording right, and "liguistic ancestors" rings coy as it stands. I have to suppose that "empire builders" swallowed up non-Turkish people as they went, and that's why we're talking about "linguistic ancestors" in the first place.
Section "Name":
4. "...a series of Turkic tribes..." The word "series" is mystifying. It seems to imply a sequential operation.
Section "Origins":
5. "...large communal branch..." What does this mean?
6. "...written in Central Asia at least from the ninth and tenth centuries..." I want to make this "...written in Central Asia during the ninth and tenth centuries...", but I have to suppose that the writer meant something by "at least." Also, I can't see how it's an "example" of anything pertinent to the paragraph.
7. "Also in the 2nd century BC..." If this "also" refers to "the Huns (220BC)", then that would be the 3rd century BC. Which is it?
8. Same sentence, "...a western hostility of Huns..." Is this a quote from something? It isn't modern English, and seems to be an amusingly awkward literal translation. I like it a lot (it's like "a murder of crows"), but I wonder what it is.
9. "...Turkic Orhun inscriptions (6th century)..." BC? If this is the first written reference, and it appears in the 6th century AD, how do we know about Oguz Khan in 220 BC?
10. It would be nice to have a date span for the Gokturk (please excuse the lack of diacritics) empire.
Section "Anthropology":
11. "...the authors state...", etc. What authors?
Section "Social Unit":
12. There is much quoted material, but quoted from what? This is a deal-breaker. I won't be able to do anything until that is straightened out.
13. The heading is "Social Unit", but we get a lot of culture. Perhaps a separate "Culture" heading is needed.
14. "...and when settled they would be active in agriculture." I don't see how this connects with their lack of emphasis on wealth. It is common for nomads to change when they become settled people.
This is almost certainly not a complete list of my questions, but it will do to get started. Thanks. Milkbreath 12:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I was going to try to contribute more but I am not sure if its worth the effort. The article should be rewritten:
Totally agree, equating ancient Xiongnu with Oghuz is too far fetch. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
85.73.180.253 (
talk)
16:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Totally agree, central and north-european people are actually africans who accidentally speak germanic languages.. Approximately over 100 million people who speak oghuz-turkic dialects and identify as Oghuz Turks are non existent.You people are out of your mind ,
Who benefits from a "free encyclopedia of lies" that aims to denounce, devalue and distort everything that is not eurocentric or western-oriented? Have fun in your dream world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.114.175.200 ( talk) 00:29, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Anthropology section has nothing to do with Anthropology (as in Humanities.) It is again the same propaganda of "Turks in Turkey are not Turkish/Oguz etc." We might as well pick a random city (say Berlin/London/Moscow/Dushanbe) and discuss whether Turks in that city are Turks/Oguz. If we actually trace the migration routes of the Oguz and their settlement locations and the ethnic affiliation of modern populations with the Oguz; that is Anthropology. But this -as it is- is propaganda. You will notice in every article related to Turks/Turkic peoples etc someone will insert this same talking point, phrased almost exactly the same under, section titles like "DNA Evidence", "Historical Background", "Anthropology" etc. Whether there is a merit to these arguments is irrelevant; these wikipedia editors are so busy tagging every Turkish/Turkic related article with this template and they can't be bothered whether what their doing makes sense or not. I will remove this whole section in a week if there are no objections. AverageTurkishJoe ( talk) 13:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Dear Nostradamous, This is not our job to re-write the history to please our dear Turkish friends. If the Safavids have Kurdish origin(although the were Turckisized), I cann't change it to make you happy. Please stop this outdated idialogy that "only a Turk knows who he is". I have many Turkish friends and I am getting to know what strange things are written in your school text books. You are raised by these distorted information and it is time to face the reality. I really understand why you are shocked when you read some information on Turks and their history! Thanks Internet that you can study history from the prospective of other people out of the circle of the nationalist Turkish scholars who believe in pseudo-science such as
Sun Theory. So, take a deep breath! Yes, there are many things that you did't know but you should cope with the reality and if it is true but you don't like it, just get over it! It is not end of the world if DNA tests prove that there is less than 9% Turkish blood in bodies of our Anatolian friends. Science is ending many nonsense nationalistic claims! --
Larno Man (
talk)
06:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Let us not confuse the sheep and the shepherds! The DNA stuff is simply a crap. Provide historians as sources not self-made synthesis for original research.-- Nostradamus1 ( talk) 06:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)Trifle not with the Turk, O Mir of Bayana
For the agility and bravery of the Turk are obvious.
If you do not come soon and listen to reason
What need is there for clarification of the obvious?
The article on Safavids provided good sources on Safavids' origin and that Sheikh Safi-e-Din family had migrated from Kurdistan to Ardabil. The thing where I am from and what is my ethnicity is irrelevant. Discuss my edits and not my nationality! That's really bad that you judge based on editors' ethnicity or nationalities and not their edits-- Larno Man ( talk) 08:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, you are right! Genetic tests are half science but theories such as
Sun Theory and that craps in the
Ruhnama, the holy book of Turkmens written by
Turkmenbashi are science. I don't understand why people like you get offended to hear that they are not 100% Turk. Do you believe that Turkish race is superior to other races, or other races lower than Turks? Is that what you mean? Is that why you try prove that you are 100% pure? Regarding, your edits. You may spend hours and days, but where they don't meet WP standards. They are challenged. For example I gave you some times to provide reference for Turkish origin of Bahmanids. But, it seems that the quality of edits is not as important as the quantity of them. I don't say that it is unlikely for Bahmanids to be Turk but citation needed --
Larno Man (
talk)
06:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't claim that I know every thing. I found a reference and put it back. You may learn it from me and don't insist on your first position all the time. Regarding your other statement I will respond in the morning. Good night-- Larno Man ( talk) 04:04, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
And for the God sake! Jealous of what? Read history. Turks owe Iranians a lot. They even learnt how to write from Iranians (See Turkish Language in WP and Sogdian alphabet) That was Iranian that help you in the process of transition from hunter gatherer and nomadic people to civilized people. Look at history when Persian was official language of all Turkish-Mongolic states from Ottoman to Indian Mongols. Was it by force or was it because of supremacy of Iranian culture and civilization at that time. We don't need to steal Iranian scholars such as Rumi, Kharazmi, Hajji Bektash Wali, Nizami and claim they were Turk.... Anyhow, I just mention that to ask you to smooth your arrogant tone. Iranians have nothing against their neighbor in Turkey. I personally have many intimate Turkish friends and unfortunately with all my respects to them all of them think that Turks are the superb race in the world and everybody in the world is jealous of them. And change your way of thinking about Iranians. Current government of Iran has nothing to do with me and other Iranian users in WP and most of them are ashamed of current situation, now and forever. Indeed, these days are dark pages of our history. But, we are not like some people who are trying to deny dark pages of their history such as Armenian genocide killing more than 1 million civilians in 20 century. Regarding the section. This information should stay to show what is the relation between Oghuz Turks and modern Turkish speaking people. People should know how much modern Turks relate to Oghuz Turks.-- Larno Man ( talk) 15:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Knowledge had always transfered from older civilizations to newer ones. These happened to Germanic people when they start contacting Romans or when Iranians nomads contacted much older Civilizations such as Assyrians and Babylonians, and for Romans when they contacted Phoenicians and Greeks. You can't claim that this transition happened for Turks without help of the older Civilizations in their region (Central Asia and Middle East)-- Larno Man ( talk) 21:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I said read Turkish Language first which is FA. The section is written by your fellow Turkish editors. On first Turkish written texts in Sogdian which is an Iranian language. -- Larno Man ( talk) 16:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Why you guys are so aggressive? It is paranoia. You think everybody who is going to contribute in Turkish related articles is your enemy. This is not battlefield. Prove your point if you think Oghuz Turks your 100% ancestors. I don't mind what you read in your school history textbooks . Prove your claim by reliable sources. This discussion is useless. I discuss your claims if it is based on reliable source and ignore your racial accusation and wrap up this discussion. -- Larno Man ( talk) 16:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
And for the God sake! Please read at least a non-Turkish book before jumping out of the blue and denounce others!-- Larno Man ( talk) 19:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. This section shouldn't be limited to Turks in Anatolia. It should be improved. It should include other Turkic peoples such as Turkmens, Azeris in Iran, Azeris in Rep. Azerbaijan, Ozbeks, etc. It is good to know to how extent different Turkic people are related to Oghuz Turks. Anyhow, you can't say that others shouldn't be interested in your history. You should thank that others from different perspectives contribute into Turkish related articles and challenge your tradition way of thinking about history. I don't know about others but I personally become interested in Turkish people and start studying on Turkish people when my Turkish friends were always telling me stories on 30,000-year Turkish civilization, Turkish origin for all languages of the world ( Sun Theory), Turkish origin for Sumer civilization, Turkish Rumi, Turkish origin for Norooz (Nevruz), Turkish origin for Kurds, discovery of America by Turks, etc. -- Larno Man ( talk) 23:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
And go and edit articles if you think they are poorly written. WP is not without errors. Maybe if Turkish scholars had spent their effort more effectively and had not spent their time and energy on fringe theories that nobody else takes it seriously, you might have had a Turkica now-- Larno Man ( talk) 00:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, no argue on Oghuz origin of these dynasties. The argument is to what extent current Turkish people are related to Oghuz Turks. Just look at mirror and compare yourself with the statue of the Seljuq princess in the article. Do you look like her or Turkic speakers in Central Asia or you more like your neighbor Greeks, Iranians and Kurds? -- Larno Man ( talk) 15:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Come on, remaining pictures and status of Seljuks and other Oghuz Turks in Medival age such as that princess statue do testify their Mongolic-Asian features. I am not sure I got what you said. You mean that Oghuz were not classified as Turkish people. In this case, their decendants are not Turk as well. Some of your information was very new to me could you add them to the article?-- Larno Man ( talk) 04:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, remove that part that Oghuz people are ancestors of Modern North Western Turks if this article is only on historical Oghuz. But, if you claim that they are fathers of modern Turks, there should be a section to examin this big claim.-- Larno Man ( talk) 04:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from this URL: here Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a license compatible with GFDL. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why people keep updating this picture here. The people who are direct descendants of Oghuz Turks are (at least linguistically and paternally) are Turks of Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan. And there is no one in any of these countries who look like this picture. I am replacing it with the picture of a girl from Turkmenistan.
And yes, it was proven that there are direct descendants of Xiongnu (from 200BC. Mongolia) living today in Turkey. We can only be proud with that. If you read the same article more carefully ( http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/07_03/ancient.shtml), these people, Turkish ancestors, had mixed Caucasian and Asian features already from 200BC. From that time on, Turks conquered and assimilated numerous Iranian speaking tribes, such as Yuezhi, Tocharians, Sogdians, as well as, other Indo-European speakers, descendants of Schytians and Sarmatians, and countless Finno-Ugric tribes. The Seljuks were allready mixed with all of these. Some of the princes might have had mongoloid features (his mother could be Mongolian, or even Chinese! Turkish kings often received Chinese princeses).
If Iran was ruled by Turkish dynasties for a thousand years, we are sorry for the Iranian friends. But it wasn't Turks who destroyed your fire worshiping Sassanid Empired, it was the mighty armies of Umar ibn al-Khattāb. Too much humiliation, we know! But you should stop any hostility against our nation. There are already 20 million Azeri in Iran, and excluding the remaining 80 million living in Turkey and Azerbaijan. I am not counting yet Turkmenistan, Ozbekhstan, Kazakhstan... Hostility against such a great nation is not good for you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sencer A ( talk • contribs) 19:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The text in the Homeland in Transoxiana section: The In the 8th century, the Oghuz Turks made a new home and domain for themselves in the area between the Caspian and Aral seas, a region that is often referred to as Transoxiana.
Well as far as I know Transoxiana is in the east of Aral lake between Amu Derya and Syr Derya. So I think that the text in that section should be reviewed. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 13:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Turkic is an iranian-turkic creole language and oghuz turkic is an iranized turkico-iranian.
In the site nostratica.ru http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(250)Clauson_against.pdf http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(206)Greenberg%20-%20Altaic%20Exists.pdf http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(203)Nostratic%20and%20altaic.pdf http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(251)Vovin%20Controversy.pdf
they give iranian etymologies to turkic numbers. gi=>eki tse=>uthse tshorts=>tört pandj=>bish atshish=>alti and so on
Non oghuz turkic languages have rather an irano-altaic conjugation endings. kor-gen-men=see-past suffixe-first person(likely borrowed from iranic)ending.
But in oghuz turkic it became gor-d-um=see-iranian past suffixe d-iranian first person ending.
if you look to these maps below,you could easily see that central asia was inhabitated by iranian speaking populations(saka,chorasmians,dahae,margians,bactrians,soghds..)and of course these tribes did not disappear but merged with turkic newcomers as proven by genetic tests and also by the presence of a caucasoid phenotype and caucasoid phenotype influences amongst central asian turks.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/East-Hem_323bc.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/East-Hem_200bc.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/East-Hem_600ad.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/East-Hem_700ad.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/East-Hem_800ad.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/East-Hem_900ad.jpg
john L.Drake —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.188.81.84 ( talk) 17:23, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
"Turkmen" comes from the iranian word torkmand/torkman which in persian means "they became turk" ie they(the iranians of central asia)have been turkified.
john L.Drake —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.188.81.84 ( talk) 17:28, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
you are funny. iranian?? Turks is turkic people. and turks is white but iranians black face. am I wrong? Sipahi1453 ( talk) 13:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
They were mixed with other peoples but they exist today, for sure. They are not like Hittites. Kavas ( talk) 17:23, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
This article fully contradicts modern scholarly encyclopedias. The Oghuz (or Ghuz) were a historical nomadic confederation in Central Asia who later moved to Iran and Anatolia and transmitted the Oghuz languages to these regions. There are no "Oghuz" today, so this article is totally unsourced POV in this regard. Please see this scholarly article. I have therefore tagged the current version because it is unscholarly, unsourced, and POV. Tajik ( talk) 00:50, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
What about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-Oguz_Language_World.png ? The people living in the regions indiciated in the map can be understand each other's language to some extent, but they cannot understand other Turkic languages like Kazakh language at all. Are the people in indicated in this map are historical like Hitites? ? Kavas ( talk) 17:37, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/425909/Oguz say that some sources use the "Oghuz" word for the peoples indicated in the map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-Oguz_Language_World.png. Kavas ( talk) 17:51, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Again, I could be wrong for the 1st edit at 2010, but "Speakers of the southwestern branch of the Turkic language subfamily are also sometimes referred to as Oğuz Turks." from Britannica is still valid. I will add it back if no objections from opposing editors. Y? Kavas ( talk) 19:44, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
2 out of the 3 images are very religious people. It is obvious that they were added intentionally. -- 144.122.250.209 ( talk) 22:08, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
A big question... Is there anybody who can present reliable sources that claim the turkic speaking people in Iran are from turkic ethnicity, because I have sources, that say they are Iranian. Aregakn ( talk) 17:45, 13 June 2010 (UTC) Iranian arabs are iranian people and they are not persian. iran is not persia. iran is a geographical name. What is iranian? what is iran? Hom many people live in iran? (pers, azeri, arab, turkmen, qashqai) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wsxedczaq ( talk • contribs) 00:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
It is needed for all that have Reliable sources on matters to participate in talk. The discussion is named "The Turkic ethnicities, Turkic languages and the population data in the article". Please contribute. Aregakn ( talk) 01:51, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The Y-DNA of the Oghuz still exists today.
The male members of the Ottoman Sultan's Dynasty.
Although the Ottoman sultans Back up, women from Europe have brought to the harem, but the Y-DNA was always Oghuz Tribe. Today, 24 princes of this dynasty:
I'm slightly confused by the section Turcoman & Turkmen, particularly the references to Western books writen before the modern age. Does this mean "modern age" in the sense of the Modern Age article, i.e. post-mediaeval, i.e. it is talking about mediaeval and earlier books? Or does it mean a more recent "modern age" (e.g. mid 20th century onwards, when a lot of the older anthropological beliefs were becoming discredited)? Also, is this a case of "prior to ..., a some Western texts got it wrong", or is it a case of "the terms had different meanings then"? Wardog ( talk) 10:40, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
There are several disparate articles on Western Turks in Wiki. In particular Western Turkic Khaganate appears to overlap this article significantly, although it does offer distinct information. It seems that some of these should be merged or restructured. There is simply no reason to have these separate and, to complicate things further, with different spelling of major terms and names. I'll let this comment hang for a while, then try to add merger flags. Alex.deWitte ( talk) 23:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Bozoklar meaning Gray Arrows not Brown Arrows
source: my native language is Turkish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oeneki ( talk • contribs) 07:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Cambridge_History_of_Early_Inner_Asi.html?id=ST6TRNuWmHsC
Rajmaan ( talk) 03:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
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It is a mistake, bad translation from Greek to Latin. This part could be found in several, old Hungarian books:
"Sciendum est a principio Patzinacitas ad Atel (Volgám) et Geieb (Jaik, Ural) fluvios habitasse, iisque conterminos fuisse populos illos, qui Mazari (Magyari) atque Uzi cognominabantur." Const. Porphy. de Adm. Imperii. Cap. 37
Fejér György: A kazarokról. 1848. [6]
"...iisque conterminos fuisse populos illos qui Mazari atque Uzi cognominantur." de adm. Imp. c. 37.
Lukácsy Kristóf: A magyarok őselei, hajdankori nevei és lakhelyei. 1869. [7]
Moravcsik made a much better translation.
DAI 37. Of the nation of the Pechenegs
"...having common frontiers with the Chazars and the so-called Uzes."
Gyula Moravcsik, 1967, p. 167 (Greek original + English translation) [8]
I think it is necessary to remove this "Mazari atque Uzi" part from the article.
--
Ulrich von Lichtenstein (
talk)
16:25, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
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It would be great if you add the Qutb Shahi state and the Azerbaijani khanates. AzərbaycanTürküAze ( talk) 18:06, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Great_Bulgaria
how is it that turk is older term than Bulgar when great old bulgaria can not be lemon fresh at 600 AD. in order something to be great and old it needs to be at least 100 years old if not more????????????????????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.33.211.25 ( talk) 01:28, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
"The mention of the "six Oghuz tribal union" in the Turkic Orhun inscriptions (6th century) pertains to the unification of the six Turkic tribes which became known as the Oghuz. This was the first written reference to Oghuz, and was dated to the period of the Göktürk empire. The Oghuz community gradually grew larger, uniting more Turkic tribes prior and during the Göktürk establishment.[9]"
Oghuz term ment confediration of tribes, it's not an ethnic group of people. This article is extreamly ahistoric trying to represent an entire Turkic ethnos history as hisotory of Turkmen Oghuz. Article misleadingly states that Gok-Turks were Oghus, Huns were Oghuz and all so on. Term Oghuz is close to Oyghur, nothing more that tribe confediration, it doesn't mean particular tribe group and can mean completely different tribes every time it mentioned.
The first part of article seems sound while second part is just ahistoric something, disconnected from all modern researches world wide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.73.180.253 ( talk) 16:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
"are regarded as one of the major branches" manages to combine peacock words with the passive of non-attribution to offer an information-free puff. Wetman 20:09, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry?
I think the correct comment is:{{cleanup-copyedit}} Gareth Hughes 02:18, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I removed this paragraph from the article:
Throughout history, the Oghuz Turks have founded different nations that have developed political and geographical identities of their own, yet share Oghuz ancestry, culture, history, language and literature. The modern Turkic nations of Azerbaijanis, Turks of Turkey and Turkmen are the three most historical of Oguz Turk peoples.
The second paragraph of the article reads:
The Oghuz Turks are the ancestors of today's western Turks whose numbers are more than 100 million and inhabit areas in western Asia and eastern Europe: Azerbaijanis of the Republic of Azerbaijan and the South Azerbaijan region of Iran, Turks of Turkey and Cyprus, Turkmens of Turkmenistan and northeastern Iran, Qashqay and Khurasani Turks of Iran, Balkan Turks of Greece, Bulgaria and the former Yugoslavia as well as Gauguz (Gokoguz) Turks of Moldova.
Which has all the same information in it already. siafu 16:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think you are mistaken. When I read, I understand that the fist paragraph is related to States formed directly by Oghuz Turks. The second paragraph tells us the lands where they live. I wish you have not removed. Would you please restore? Tengriteg
What is the reason for the vprotect template? siafu 23:58, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
" ... If one looks at the record of Iranian historians during the same period, the scene is similar: a rather barren landscape relieved by a few lofty peaks. In 1927-8 Ahmad Kasravi led the way with the publication of three seminal articles entitled Nizhad va Tabar-i Safaviyya (`The genealogy of the Safavids'); Safaviyya sayyid nabuda and (`The Safavids were not sayyids'); and Baz ham Safaviyya (`The Safavids again')[17]. Kasravi disputed the validity of the `official' Safavid genealogy contained in the Safvat al-Safa and followed by most later Safavid chronicles[18], and argued convincingly that the ancestors of Shaykh Safi al-Din, who founded the Safavid Order (tariqa), were indigenous inhabitants of Iran (az bumiyan-i bastan-i iran budan) and were of pure Aryan stock (juz nizhad-i aryani nadashta and). Today, the consensus among Safavid historians is that the Safavid family hailed from Persian Kurdistan. Kasravi's important articles were published in the journal Ayandeh, which was not readily available in the West, and, despite the fact that they were republished as a pamphlet in 1944, in an expanded and revised form, they unfortunately continued to be overlooked by many historians. These included the Turkish scholar Zeki Velidi Togan who, working on the oldest available MSS. of the Safvat al-Safa, independently reached many of the same conclusions reached by Kasravi thirty years earlier[19]. At the same time, Togan tried to lay to rest the persistent claim by Turkish historians that Shah Isma'il I was a Turk, but this claim resurfaced from time to time in the writings of Turcophiles, such as David Ayalon[20], and was usually based on the fact that Isma'il spoke the Azari dialect of Turkish, which Toynbee calls one of "the vulgar tongues of camp and court"[21], and had written poems in Azari under the pen-name of Khata'i. ..." Roger M. Savory, Professor Emeritus University of Toronto (one of the authors of the "Encyclopaedia Iranica")
As you can read in the text above, the Safavids were not Turkish, and thus, they cannot be considered "Oghuz" ... - Tajik 00:11, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
It is important to remember that, while the Safavid ruling house was likely not Turkic (other than possible Azeri ties through Isma'il's mother, a significant proportion of their Qizilbash forces did consider themselves of Turkic and specifically Oghuz origin. To the extent that the dynasty depended upon these Turkic tribes to maintain power, it could be argued that it was in some sense Turkic/Oghuz. I believe Minorsky made the argument that the Qizilbash can be viewed as the third succession in the line of Turkman dynasties (following the Qara Qoyunlu and the Aq Quyunlu). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.53.11 ( talk) 20:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Gokturks are not of Oguz origin they are beys of Asına tribe overrun by Oguz after death of "Kapağan Han" who rulled oguz with an iron fist (his army was 400 000 horsemen and horsewomen).For this reason Oguz never called themselves as Turks till 15th century(Mehmet II of Ottomans used name Turk). For Ottomans and other oguz tribes ,Turk meaned who lived in Turkestan those times.
I removed Germany, Austria, Belgium, Great Britain, etc. from the list of countries with Oghuz Turk population. The way it was written before would puzzle those who are not familiar with this part of history, and they might think that the Nazis spared the Turks from their concentration camps during WW2! I believe this part of the article should list the countries of traditional settlement of the Oghuz Turks, and not the places of Turkish diaspora after WW2! Also, I have never heard of a country called Gagavuz. Instead, I put Moldova. Also, there is no longer Yugoslavia, I put Serbia instead, there are a small number of ethnic Turks in Serbia, mostly refugees who fled the Albanian ethnic violence in Kosovo. As far as I know, no Turks live in Montenegro, that's why I didn't put "Serbia and Montenegro". The Montenegrins were renowned for their "love" for Turks and Muslims, this is why, even in Ottoman times, no Turks dared to live in that tiny mountainous country). Oh, now I've remembered that I forgot Romania, there is an ethnic Turkish minority in Romanian Dobruja! I wondered whether to remove Greece from the list, because those who are called Turks in Greek Thrace are ethnic Bulgarians of Muslim faith, Pomaks, or Pomakoi in Greek. Still, Greece is a country of traditional Turkish settlement, there were quite a lot of Turks in today's Greece before the Balkan Wars, WW1 and the Greco-Turkish war of the 1920-es. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.11.148.71 ( talk • contribs) 10:42, 15 May 2006.
Thanks,
The source that says that the Oghuz Turks are partial ancestors of today's Turkic speakers is incorrect, and the source is outdated. Genetic testing has since been done, which contradicts this information. Furthermore, I read the source provided and no where does it list the people that are supposedly of partial Oghuz descent, which makes the list in the next sentence complete original research, which is against Wikipedia's policies. Azerbaijani 14:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Is Azerbaijani actually trying to argue that modern Turks and Azerbaijanis have no genetic descent from the Turkic tribes who migrated into those regions in the later middle ages? That seems difficult to defend.
john k
21:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
How about this (I have also shortened the length of the intro to make it more neat. People can click the links to find out the locations of these people; this way, the intro flows very smoothly and sounds a lot nicer and is less messy):
The Oghuz Turks are partial ancestors[1] of some of today's Southwestern Turks and the linguistic ancestors to others, making a combined population of more than 100 million Turkic speakers. These include Azerbaijanis, Turks (of Turkey), Turkish Cypriots, Balkan Turks, Turkmens, Qashqai, Khorasani, and Gagauz.
During Turkic mass-migrations in the 9th through 12th centuries, the Oghuz were among the indigenous Turks of Central Asia who migrated towards western Asia and eastern Europe via Transoxiana. From the 5th century onward, the Oghuz were the founders and rulers of several important Turkic kingdoms and empires, the most notable of them being the Seljuks, and the Ottomans.
Reasonable? Azerbaijani 22:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I have no knowledge of the Turkish language and very little of Turkey and Turks. I started to copyedit this page, but I ran into trouble because I can't tell what some of it means. (Ignorance works to my advantage here, because I will know it when a passage is unclear.) If someone would be kind enough to walk me through the article point by point, I will do what I can to make it read well.
1. To say that the Orghuz "are regarded" seems to mean that their status is in dispute. If so, by whom, and what are the alternate theories?
2. The capital "s" in "Southwestern Turks" implies that there is a well defined classification of Turks by compass orientation, and one of these groups calls themselves the Southwestern Turks.
3. I'm not sure one can be a "linguistic ancestor" in the sense that one can have descendants that can be literally counted along with the direct ancestors. Do these linguistic descendants call themselves "Orghuz Turks"? In other words, is "Orghuz" a term in current use among the Turkish people. Do they identify themselves as Orghuz if asked, or is it more a historical label? Do some of the linguistic descendants retain an ethnic self-image other than Orghuz? You see my confusion. Some of this is answered later in "Anthropology," but I'd like to have a complete picture.
3. Again, "linguistic ancestors of others." Are these "others" ethnic Turks or not? Don't imagine that I care, I just want to get the wording right, and "liguistic ancestors" rings coy as it stands. I have to suppose that "empire builders" swallowed up non-Turkish people as they went, and that's why we're talking about "linguistic ancestors" in the first place.
Section "Name":
4. "...a series of Turkic tribes..." The word "series" is mystifying. It seems to imply a sequential operation.
Section "Origins":
5. "...large communal branch..." What does this mean?
6. "...written in Central Asia at least from the ninth and tenth centuries..." I want to make this "...written in Central Asia during the ninth and tenth centuries...", but I have to suppose that the writer meant something by "at least." Also, I can't see how it's an "example" of anything pertinent to the paragraph.
7. "Also in the 2nd century BC..." If this "also" refers to "the Huns (220BC)", then that would be the 3rd century BC. Which is it?
8. Same sentence, "...a western hostility of Huns..." Is this a quote from something? It isn't modern English, and seems to be an amusingly awkward literal translation. I like it a lot (it's like "a murder of crows"), but I wonder what it is.
9. "...Turkic Orhun inscriptions (6th century)..." BC? If this is the first written reference, and it appears in the 6th century AD, how do we know about Oguz Khan in 220 BC?
10. It would be nice to have a date span for the Gokturk (please excuse the lack of diacritics) empire.
Section "Anthropology":
11. "...the authors state...", etc. What authors?
Section "Social Unit":
12. There is much quoted material, but quoted from what? This is a deal-breaker. I won't be able to do anything until that is straightened out.
13. The heading is "Social Unit", but we get a lot of culture. Perhaps a separate "Culture" heading is needed.
14. "...and when settled they would be active in agriculture." I don't see how this connects with their lack of emphasis on wealth. It is common for nomads to change when they become settled people.
This is almost certainly not a complete list of my questions, but it will do to get started. Thanks. Milkbreath 12:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I was going to try to contribute more but I am not sure if its worth the effort. The article should be rewritten:
Totally agree, equating ancient Xiongnu with Oghuz is too far fetch. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
85.73.180.253 (
talk)
16:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Totally agree, central and north-european people are actually africans who accidentally speak germanic languages.. Approximately over 100 million people who speak oghuz-turkic dialects and identify as Oghuz Turks are non existent.You people are out of your mind ,
Who benefits from a "free encyclopedia of lies" that aims to denounce, devalue and distort everything that is not eurocentric or western-oriented? Have fun in your dream world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.114.175.200 ( talk) 00:29, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Anthropology section has nothing to do with Anthropology (as in Humanities.) It is again the same propaganda of "Turks in Turkey are not Turkish/Oguz etc." We might as well pick a random city (say Berlin/London/Moscow/Dushanbe) and discuss whether Turks in that city are Turks/Oguz. If we actually trace the migration routes of the Oguz and their settlement locations and the ethnic affiliation of modern populations with the Oguz; that is Anthropology. But this -as it is- is propaganda. You will notice in every article related to Turks/Turkic peoples etc someone will insert this same talking point, phrased almost exactly the same under, section titles like "DNA Evidence", "Historical Background", "Anthropology" etc. Whether there is a merit to these arguments is irrelevant; these wikipedia editors are so busy tagging every Turkish/Turkic related article with this template and they can't be bothered whether what their doing makes sense or not. I will remove this whole section in a week if there are no objections. AverageTurkishJoe ( talk) 13:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Dear Nostradamous, This is not our job to re-write the history to please our dear Turkish friends. If the Safavids have Kurdish origin(although the were Turckisized), I cann't change it to make you happy. Please stop this outdated idialogy that "only a Turk knows who he is". I have many Turkish friends and I am getting to know what strange things are written in your school text books. You are raised by these distorted information and it is time to face the reality. I really understand why you are shocked when you read some information on Turks and their history! Thanks Internet that you can study history from the prospective of other people out of the circle of the nationalist Turkish scholars who believe in pseudo-science such as
Sun Theory. So, take a deep breath! Yes, there are many things that you did't know but you should cope with the reality and if it is true but you don't like it, just get over it! It is not end of the world if DNA tests prove that there is less than 9% Turkish blood in bodies of our Anatolian friends. Science is ending many nonsense nationalistic claims! --
Larno Man (
talk)
06:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Let us not confuse the sheep and the shepherds! The DNA stuff is simply a crap. Provide historians as sources not self-made synthesis for original research.-- Nostradamus1 ( talk) 06:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)Trifle not with the Turk, O Mir of Bayana
For the agility and bravery of the Turk are obvious.
If you do not come soon and listen to reason
What need is there for clarification of the obvious?
The article on Safavids provided good sources on Safavids' origin and that Sheikh Safi-e-Din family had migrated from Kurdistan to Ardabil. The thing where I am from and what is my ethnicity is irrelevant. Discuss my edits and not my nationality! That's really bad that you judge based on editors' ethnicity or nationalities and not their edits-- Larno Man ( talk) 08:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, you are right! Genetic tests are half science but theories such as
Sun Theory and that craps in the
Ruhnama, the holy book of Turkmens written by
Turkmenbashi are science. I don't understand why people like you get offended to hear that they are not 100% Turk. Do you believe that Turkish race is superior to other races, or other races lower than Turks? Is that what you mean? Is that why you try prove that you are 100% pure? Regarding, your edits. You may spend hours and days, but where they don't meet WP standards. They are challenged. For example I gave you some times to provide reference for Turkish origin of Bahmanids. But, it seems that the quality of edits is not as important as the quantity of them. I don't say that it is unlikely for Bahmanids to be Turk but citation needed --
Larno Man (
talk)
06:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't claim that I know every thing. I found a reference and put it back. You may learn it from me and don't insist on your first position all the time. Regarding your other statement I will respond in the morning. Good night-- Larno Man ( talk) 04:04, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
And for the God sake! Jealous of what? Read history. Turks owe Iranians a lot. They even learnt how to write from Iranians (See Turkish Language in WP and Sogdian alphabet) That was Iranian that help you in the process of transition from hunter gatherer and nomadic people to civilized people. Look at history when Persian was official language of all Turkish-Mongolic states from Ottoman to Indian Mongols. Was it by force or was it because of supremacy of Iranian culture and civilization at that time. We don't need to steal Iranian scholars such as Rumi, Kharazmi, Hajji Bektash Wali, Nizami and claim they were Turk.... Anyhow, I just mention that to ask you to smooth your arrogant tone. Iranians have nothing against their neighbor in Turkey. I personally have many intimate Turkish friends and unfortunately with all my respects to them all of them think that Turks are the superb race in the world and everybody in the world is jealous of them. And change your way of thinking about Iranians. Current government of Iran has nothing to do with me and other Iranian users in WP and most of them are ashamed of current situation, now and forever. Indeed, these days are dark pages of our history. But, we are not like some people who are trying to deny dark pages of their history such as Armenian genocide killing more than 1 million civilians in 20 century. Regarding the section. This information should stay to show what is the relation between Oghuz Turks and modern Turkish speaking people. People should know how much modern Turks relate to Oghuz Turks.-- Larno Man ( talk) 15:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Knowledge had always transfered from older civilizations to newer ones. These happened to Germanic people when they start contacting Romans or when Iranians nomads contacted much older Civilizations such as Assyrians and Babylonians, and for Romans when they contacted Phoenicians and Greeks. You can't claim that this transition happened for Turks without help of the older Civilizations in their region (Central Asia and Middle East)-- Larno Man ( talk) 21:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I said read Turkish Language first which is FA. The section is written by your fellow Turkish editors. On first Turkish written texts in Sogdian which is an Iranian language. -- Larno Man ( talk) 16:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Why you guys are so aggressive? It is paranoia. You think everybody who is going to contribute in Turkish related articles is your enemy. This is not battlefield. Prove your point if you think Oghuz Turks your 100% ancestors. I don't mind what you read in your school history textbooks . Prove your claim by reliable sources. This discussion is useless. I discuss your claims if it is based on reliable source and ignore your racial accusation and wrap up this discussion. -- Larno Man ( talk) 16:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
And for the God sake! Please read at least a non-Turkish book before jumping out of the blue and denounce others!-- Larno Man ( talk) 19:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. This section shouldn't be limited to Turks in Anatolia. It should be improved. It should include other Turkic peoples such as Turkmens, Azeris in Iran, Azeris in Rep. Azerbaijan, Ozbeks, etc. It is good to know to how extent different Turkic people are related to Oghuz Turks. Anyhow, you can't say that others shouldn't be interested in your history. You should thank that others from different perspectives contribute into Turkish related articles and challenge your tradition way of thinking about history. I don't know about others but I personally become interested in Turkish people and start studying on Turkish people when my Turkish friends were always telling me stories on 30,000-year Turkish civilization, Turkish origin for all languages of the world ( Sun Theory), Turkish origin for Sumer civilization, Turkish Rumi, Turkish origin for Norooz (Nevruz), Turkish origin for Kurds, discovery of America by Turks, etc. -- Larno Man ( talk) 23:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
And go and edit articles if you think they are poorly written. WP is not without errors. Maybe if Turkish scholars had spent their effort more effectively and had not spent their time and energy on fringe theories that nobody else takes it seriously, you might have had a Turkica now-- Larno Man ( talk) 00:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, no argue on Oghuz origin of these dynasties. The argument is to what extent current Turkish people are related to Oghuz Turks. Just look at mirror and compare yourself with the statue of the Seljuq princess in the article. Do you look like her or Turkic speakers in Central Asia or you more like your neighbor Greeks, Iranians and Kurds? -- Larno Man ( talk) 15:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Come on, remaining pictures and status of Seljuks and other Oghuz Turks in Medival age such as that princess statue do testify their Mongolic-Asian features. I am not sure I got what you said. You mean that Oghuz were not classified as Turkish people. In this case, their decendants are not Turk as well. Some of your information was very new to me could you add them to the article?-- Larno Man ( talk) 04:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, remove that part that Oghuz people are ancestors of Modern North Western Turks if this article is only on historical Oghuz. But, if you claim that they are fathers of modern Turks, there should be a section to examin this big claim.-- Larno Man ( talk) 04:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from this URL: here Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a license compatible with GFDL. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why people keep updating this picture here. The people who are direct descendants of Oghuz Turks are (at least linguistically and paternally) are Turks of Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan. And there is no one in any of these countries who look like this picture. I am replacing it with the picture of a girl from Turkmenistan.
And yes, it was proven that there are direct descendants of Xiongnu (from 200BC. Mongolia) living today in Turkey. We can only be proud with that. If you read the same article more carefully ( http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/07_03/ancient.shtml), these people, Turkish ancestors, had mixed Caucasian and Asian features already from 200BC. From that time on, Turks conquered and assimilated numerous Iranian speaking tribes, such as Yuezhi, Tocharians, Sogdians, as well as, other Indo-European speakers, descendants of Schytians and Sarmatians, and countless Finno-Ugric tribes. The Seljuks were allready mixed with all of these. Some of the princes might have had mongoloid features (his mother could be Mongolian, or even Chinese! Turkish kings often received Chinese princeses).
If Iran was ruled by Turkish dynasties for a thousand years, we are sorry for the Iranian friends. But it wasn't Turks who destroyed your fire worshiping Sassanid Empired, it was the mighty armies of Umar ibn al-Khattāb. Too much humiliation, we know! But you should stop any hostility against our nation. There are already 20 million Azeri in Iran, and excluding the remaining 80 million living in Turkey and Azerbaijan. I am not counting yet Turkmenistan, Ozbekhstan, Kazakhstan... Hostility against such a great nation is not good for you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sencer A ( talk • contribs) 19:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The text in the Homeland in Transoxiana section: The In the 8th century, the Oghuz Turks made a new home and domain for themselves in the area between the Caspian and Aral seas, a region that is often referred to as Transoxiana.
Well as far as I know Transoxiana is in the east of Aral lake between Amu Derya and Syr Derya. So I think that the text in that section should be reviewed. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 13:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Turkic is an iranian-turkic creole language and oghuz turkic is an iranized turkico-iranian.
In the site nostratica.ru http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(250)Clauson_against.pdf http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(206)Greenberg%20-%20Altaic%20Exists.pdf http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(203)Nostratic%20and%20altaic.pdf http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(251)Vovin%20Controversy.pdf
they give iranian etymologies to turkic numbers. gi=>eki tse=>uthse tshorts=>tört pandj=>bish atshish=>alti and so on
Non oghuz turkic languages have rather an irano-altaic conjugation endings. kor-gen-men=see-past suffixe-first person(likely borrowed from iranic)ending.
But in oghuz turkic it became gor-d-um=see-iranian past suffixe d-iranian first person ending.
if you look to these maps below,you could easily see that central asia was inhabitated by iranian speaking populations(saka,chorasmians,dahae,margians,bactrians,soghds..)and of course these tribes did not disappear but merged with turkic newcomers as proven by genetic tests and also by the presence of a caucasoid phenotype and caucasoid phenotype influences amongst central asian turks.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/East-Hem_323bc.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/East-Hem_200bc.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/East-Hem_600ad.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/East-Hem_700ad.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/East-Hem_800ad.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/East-Hem_900ad.jpg
john L.Drake —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.188.81.84 ( talk) 17:23, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
"Turkmen" comes from the iranian word torkmand/torkman which in persian means "they became turk" ie they(the iranians of central asia)have been turkified.
john L.Drake —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.188.81.84 ( talk) 17:28, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
you are funny. iranian?? Turks is turkic people. and turks is white but iranians black face. am I wrong? Sipahi1453 ( talk) 13:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
They were mixed with other peoples but they exist today, for sure. They are not like Hittites. Kavas ( talk) 17:23, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
This article fully contradicts modern scholarly encyclopedias. The Oghuz (or Ghuz) were a historical nomadic confederation in Central Asia who later moved to Iran and Anatolia and transmitted the Oghuz languages to these regions. There are no "Oghuz" today, so this article is totally unsourced POV in this regard. Please see this scholarly article. I have therefore tagged the current version because it is unscholarly, unsourced, and POV. Tajik ( talk) 00:50, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
What about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-Oguz_Language_World.png ? The people living in the regions indiciated in the map can be understand each other's language to some extent, but they cannot understand other Turkic languages like Kazakh language at all. Are the people in indicated in this map are historical like Hitites? ? Kavas ( talk) 17:37, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/425909/Oguz say that some sources use the "Oghuz" word for the peoples indicated in the map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-Oguz_Language_World.png. Kavas ( talk) 17:51, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Again, I could be wrong for the 1st edit at 2010, but "Speakers of the southwestern branch of the Turkic language subfamily are also sometimes referred to as Oğuz Turks." from Britannica is still valid. I will add it back if no objections from opposing editors. Y? Kavas ( talk) 19:44, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
2 out of the 3 images are very religious people. It is obvious that they were added intentionally. -- 144.122.250.209 ( talk) 22:08, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
A big question... Is there anybody who can present reliable sources that claim the turkic speaking people in Iran are from turkic ethnicity, because I have sources, that say they are Iranian. Aregakn ( talk) 17:45, 13 June 2010 (UTC) Iranian arabs are iranian people and they are not persian. iran is not persia. iran is a geographical name. What is iranian? what is iran? Hom many people live in iran? (pers, azeri, arab, turkmen, qashqai) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wsxedczaq ( talk • contribs) 00:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
It is needed for all that have Reliable sources on matters to participate in talk. The discussion is named "The Turkic ethnicities, Turkic languages and the population data in the article". Please contribute. Aregakn ( talk) 01:51, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The Y-DNA of the Oghuz still exists today.
The male members of the Ottoman Sultan's Dynasty.
Although the Ottoman sultans Back up, women from Europe have brought to the harem, but the Y-DNA was always Oghuz Tribe. Today, 24 princes of this dynasty:
I'm slightly confused by the section Turcoman & Turkmen, particularly the references to Western books writen before the modern age. Does this mean "modern age" in the sense of the Modern Age article, i.e. post-mediaeval, i.e. it is talking about mediaeval and earlier books? Or does it mean a more recent "modern age" (e.g. mid 20th century onwards, when a lot of the older anthropological beliefs were becoming discredited)? Also, is this a case of "prior to ..., a some Western texts got it wrong", or is it a case of "the terms had different meanings then"? Wardog ( talk) 10:40, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
There are several disparate articles on Western Turks in Wiki. In particular Western Turkic Khaganate appears to overlap this article significantly, although it does offer distinct information. It seems that some of these should be merged or restructured. There is simply no reason to have these separate and, to complicate things further, with different spelling of major terms and names. I'll let this comment hang for a while, then try to add merger flags. Alex.deWitte ( talk) 23:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Bozoklar meaning Gray Arrows not Brown Arrows
source: my native language is Turkish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oeneki ( talk • contribs) 07:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Cambridge_History_of_Early_Inner_Asi.html?id=ST6TRNuWmHsC
Rajmaan ( talk) 03:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
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It is a mistake, bad translation from Greek to Latin. This part could be found in several, old Hungarian books:
"Sciendum est a principio Patzinacitas ad Atel (Volgám) et Geieb (Jaik, Ural) fluvios habitasse, iisque conterminos fuisse populos illos, qui Mazari (Magyari) atque Uzi cognominabantur." Const. Porphy. de Adm. Imperii. Cap. 37
Fejér György: A kazarokról. 1848. [6]
"...iisque conterminos fuisse populos illos qui Mazari atque Uzi cognominantur." de adm. Imp. c. 37.
Lukácsy Kristóf: A magyarok őselei, hajdankori nevei és lakhelyei. 1869. [7]
Moravcsik made a much better translation.
DAI 37. Of the nation of the Pechenegs
"...having common frontiers with the Chazars and the so-called Uzes."
Gyula Moravcsik, 1967, p. 167 (Greek original + English translation) [8]
I think it is necessary to remove this "Mazari atque Uzi" part from the article.
--
Ulrich von Lichtenstein (
talk)
16:25, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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It would be great if you add the Qutb Shahi state and the Azerbaijani khanates. AzərbaycanTürküAze ( talk) 18:06, 3 June 2021 (UTC)