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Reviewer: Cerebellum ( talk · contribs) 22:16, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello! I will be reviewing this article. --
Cerebellum (
talk) 22:16, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Wow this was really fun to read, I had never heard of any of this stuff! Well-written and extremely well-research article, easily passes as a GA. I did some copy editing, so let me know if you disagree with any changes I made. I also left some comments below for further improvement. Good work!
Thanks for your kind words. Odaenathus is shadowed by his wife and thats why not a lot of people know his story even though Zenobia contributed nothing to the power of Palmyral; she merely used what her husband built including his army, generals and resources. Yet, she get all the glory; the idea of a warrior queen is more attractive for people
I will use your comments to improve the article, thanks for fixing the grammar. Cheers.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 14:06, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
In the ancestors section of the page, it states Odaenathus's ancestors, Hairan, Wahb Allat, and Nasor as his father, grandfather and great grandfather respectively. Shouldn't this information be sourced? And if they are, where does it exactly state his father's name or any of his ancestors? Thanks in advance. Jadd Haidar ( talk) 16:30, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
well almost all sources about his origins, says that he is of arab origins, and Rome and every one at that time called him an arab or a leader of Saracens. while his origins is a discussed subject than let's not make an assumption that he is aramean in origin, just because of "some" of his ancestors names (witch he had both arab and Aramaic names)... many many Arabs in the Levant in pre Islamic times had Aramaic names, they were still called Arabs, we should reach a ground in this point, cause him being originally aramean is absurd, and most sources goes against it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arabos ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment Since his origin is debated, then you cant write in the lede that he was Arab or Aramean. Since the origin section gives credit to both the Arab roots and Aramean roots then what is the problem? Why isnt this enough for you? If the problem is about the statement that the family was Aramaic, then the scholars who say that actually provide an argument for it or refer us to the scholar who provided concrete argument based on archaeology and linguistics. While the historians who say Arab just mention it randomly without paying attention to his tomb inscription and the works of Gawlikowski. So, what exactly do you wanna see happening in this article and do you have sources enough to support what you want?. -- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 00:01, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Now that we have finished the general discussion, I will say you are right when you wrote this "the guy that said that his ancestors were Aramean is because his great grandfather name is Aramaic, what's the difference between him and all the historians that called him an arab based of his name?". Thats why we should present both views to maintain neutral point of view. Can you provide me with a source that state the origin of Odaenathus' family (not Odaenathus but the family since the problem here is about the family) is Arab based on his name? I mean a source that actually gives an argument. If not, then I will do a research and find such a source tomorrow or in the weekend.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 01:47, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment: To make things easier, I moved the statment of an Aramean origin of the family to a note as it would be almost vandalism to delete such a strong argument based on actual evidence. Now the section starts with saying that the king was Aramean-Arab while the note mentions that some scholars, based on the tomb inscription and the name of Nasor, prefer an Aramean origin of the family. When an equally reliable source is presented for scholars considring the family Arab based also on academic argument then this should be added to the note. Hope this is enough to resolve this discussion and avoid any edit wars.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 07:34, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
@ Arabos. Can you provide a source that state that the name of Odaenathus grandfather is Arabic. You edited the article but provided no source for that statement and we must have a reliable citation for any info. You said earlier that I didnt mention the name of the grandfather but thats because i didnt find a source stating clearly that the grandfather of the king had an arabic name and SYNTHS is strongly rejected in Wikipedia.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 09:20, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment now that your problem is solved, do you have any reason to edit wikipedia except entering the word Arab everywhere? I mean are you planning to improve any article with non ethnic info or appeasing your national feelings is the sole reason for coming here ?-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 10:50, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment 2 When you are blocked, you are not suppose to edit again or demand changes. Sadly, I wasted time with a sockpuppet. When you plan on using suckpuppets, its important not to go back to the same articles that got you blocked or where editors know you are a blocked user cause this will make discovering you easy and will lead to the same usual results: blocking and undoing of edits.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 22:15, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
My edits were mostly cosmetic, normalizing the citation style. As for Hairan, I put the remark about Nabatea in a note since there seems a consensus that its an Aramaic name. Words like "however", "some" etc are discouraged. I removed Malalas and kept Procopius; believe me, if you want to prove something, using Malalas will make your case weak. I hope not to engage in any edit wars and that we can discuss changes here.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 14:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Gog the Mild ( talk) 18:34, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
Under "Relation with Rome" you write "who attributed the attempted negotiations with Shapur to Odaenathus' quest for power", but I can't find any mention to "negotiations" earlier in the article, which makes this statement hang a little oddly and unsupported.
"this combination of title and imagery". The earlier part of the paragraph covers "imagery", but not "title". As this is a new paragraph, I am not sure how to rephrase things to introduce the title aspect.
Gog the Mild ( talk) 16:20, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
There is an error in the latinized version of the inscription. It doesn't say MDNH' ('the king of the entire EAST') but rather MDYT' ('the king of the entire PROVINCE'). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.94.134.245 ( talk) 12:42, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
A cluttering of Greek and Latin transliterations was added, but I do not see the justification for this. The Arabic transliteration have several forms but we wont add them as it will be visual pollution that serves no purpose. Aside from this, why would Odaenathus have a Greek or Latin transliteration despite him not being Greek or Roman? the fact that few Palmyrene inscriptions were in Latin, or that we have bilingual Greek and Palmyrene inscriptions doe not warrant such a prominent place for the Greek and Latin transliterations in the lead. Aramaic was used by the Parthians but we dont have the name of Parthian monarch in Aramaic, nor do we do that for Indian monarchs who used Aramiac in many inscriptions.
Also, the lead doent not need citations: they should be in the body of the article and the Name, family and appearance section cover this.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 15:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
An unreferenced sentence was added to the origin section about Vaballathus. First of all, regarding Odaenathus' ethnic origin, it is comprehensively discussed and there is no need for further evidence that he had Arab blood.
Second, regarding the name of Wahab-Allat, in the section it is already stated that it is Arabic and I quote: "his name, the name of his father, Hairan, and that of his grandfather, Wahb-Allat, are Arabic." Therefore, there is no need for repetition. Discussing the meaning of names aside from that of Odaenathus himself is out of the scope of this article.
Most importantly, mentioning that Palmyra was a centre of worship of Allat is erroneous. A centre of worship means that a city was a main "residence" of a deity (example, Manbij was a centre of Atargatis). If a diety is worshipped in a city, this does not mean that the locality was a centre of worship. If Palmyra is a centre of worship of Allat, then this needs a good academic source and in any case it does not belong in the article of Odaenathus, but the religion section of the article of Palmyra.--
Attar-Aram syria (
talk) 19:49, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
I added the sentence regarding his son, not his grandfather. He named one of his sons Wahb-Allat, which is not mentioned in the section, and it is relevant because it reveals his own cultural background and his view of it. The name not only has Arab form (Wahb/Abd/Taym + Deity) but also reveals Allat worship which is one of the most distinct Arab traditions. In fact all other mentions of people named "Wahballat" in inscriptions are assumed to be Arab without distinction, such as those found in Nabataea which are surrounded by other Arab names and considered the same stock. As for source, there's a need for a source that his son is called Wahballat? I can do that, but I linked to the wikipedia article of Vaballatus, which has ample sources on him. I will remove the Palmyra reference but if you're curious of a source see Healey, John F. (2001), The Religion of the Nabataeans: A Conspectus. Palmyra was one of the major centers of Allat worship, let's leave it at that.-- Julia Domna Ba'al ( talk) 08:30, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
Actually, deleting the line from "the origin of Odaenathus name" to "in practice" wont change much. That line can be used as a counter argument for an editor who will write that Odaenathus identified as Arab, but since no editor is doing this, then the line can be deleted and the part explaining how Palmyrenes thought of themselves kept. Is that fine with you Julia Domna Ba'al ?-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 10:09, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
This term remained unlinked in the first sentence because apparently the article Palmyrene Empire is limited to the period after his death. This doesn't make sense to me. Should the whole history of the Palmyrene state under him and his successors be in one article? Srnec ( talk) 13:07, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
[[List of Palmyrene monarchs|Palmyrene Kingdom]]
rather than pipe to Palmyrene Empire.
Srnec (
talk) 00:38, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
How was it not a kingdom? It had three kings, a regent, and a territory corresponding to the Palmyrene region (I am not counting the Roman provinces under his control). 12 years isnt ephermal given the events that took place. As for a Palmyrene kingdom article, I believe the section with that title in the article of Palmyra covers this. Another option is to rename the Palmyrene Empire into the Palmyrene kingdom and expand it to include the reign of Odaenathus and Hairan and the political changes in Palmyra that signified the end of the council's authority and the coming of the monarchy.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 03:12, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
I really think the Palmyrene Empire is just those three years. if the words Palmyrene and kingdom must appear together, the "kingdom" needs to be uncapitalized. 12 years is definitely ephemeral and three kings in as many olympiads doesn't exactly say "island of stability" to me. Hitler lasted twelve years, established kingdoms last for one or two generations at least. We have already articles for Roman provinces and for Palmyra itself. GPinkerton ( talk) 04:37, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Yes. A kingdom. Not The Palmyrene Kingdom. Was the Central African Republic really a Central African Empire under Bokassa I? GPinkerton ( talk) 06:12, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Odaenathus is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 19, 2019. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Page views for this article over the last 30 days | ||
---|---|---|
Detailed traffic statistics |
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Cerebellum ( talk · contribs) 22:16, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello! I will be reviewing this article. --
Cerebellum (
talk) 22:16, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Wow this was really fun to read, I had never heard of any of this stuff! Well-written and extremely well-research article, easily passes as a GA. I did some copy editing, so let me know if you disagree with any changes I made. I also left some comments below for further improvement. Good work!
Thanks for your kind words. Odaenathus is shadowed by his wife and thats why not a lot of people know his story even though Zenobia contributed nothing to the power of Palmyral; she merely used what her husband built including his army, generals and resources. Yet, she get all the glory; the idea of a warrior queen is more attractive for people
I will use your comments to improve the article, thanks for fixing the grammar. Cheers.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 14:06, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
In the ancestors section of the page, it states Odaenathus's ancestors, Hairan, Wahb Allat, and Nasor as his father, grandfather and great grandfather respectively. Shouldn't this information be sourced? And if they are, where does it exactly state his father's name or any of his ancestors? Thanks in advance. Jadd Haidar ( talk) 16:30, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
well almost all sources about his origins, says that he is of arab origins, and Rome and every one at that time called him an arab or a leader of Saracens. while his origins is a discussed subject than let's not make an assumption that he is aramean in origin, just because of "some" of his ancestors names (witch he had both arab and Aramaic names)... many many Arabs in the Levant in pre Islamic times had Aramaic names, they were still called Arabs, we should reach a ground in this point, cause him being originally aramean is absurd, and most sources goes against it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arabos ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment Since his origin is debated, then you cant write in the lede that he was Arab or Aramean. Since the origin section gives credit to both the Arab roots and Aramean roots then what is the problem? Why isnt this enough for you? If the problem is about the statement that the family was Aramaic, then the scholars who say that actually provide an argument for it or refer us to the scholar who provided concrete argument based on archaeology and linguistics. While the historians who say Arab just mention it randomly without paying attention to his tomb inscription and the works of Gawlikowski. So, what exactly do you wanna see happening in this article and do you have sources enough to support what you want?. -- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 00:01, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Now that we have finished the general discussion, I will say you are right when you wrote this "the guy that said that his ancestors were Aramean is because his great grandfather name is Aramaic, what's the difference between him and all the historians that called him an arab based of his name?". Thats why we should present both views to maintain neutral point of view. Can you provide me with a source that state the origin of Odaenathus' family (not Odaenathus but the family since the problem here is about the family) is Arab based on his name? I mean a source that actually gives an argument. If not, then I will do a research and find such a source tomorrow or in the weekend.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 01:47, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment: To make things easier, I moved the statment of an Aramean origin of the family to a note as it would be almost vandalism to delete such a strong argument based on actual evidence. Now the section starts with saying that the king was Aramean-Arab while the note mentions that some scholars, based on the tomb inscription and the name of Nasor, prefer an Aramean origin of the family. When an equally reliable source is presented for scholars considring the family Arab based also on academic argument then this should be added to the note. Hope this is enough to resolve this discussion and avoid any edit wars.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 07:34, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
@ Arabos. Can you provide a source that state that the name of Odaenathus grandfather is Arabic. You edited the article but provided no source for that statement and we must have a reliable citation for any info. You said earlier that I didnt mention the name of the grandfather but thats because i didnt find a source stating clearly that the grandfather of the king had an arabic name and SYNTHS is strongly rejected in Wikipedia.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 09:20, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment now that your problem is solved, do you have any reason to edit wikipedia except entering the word Arab everywhere? I mean are you planning to improve any article with non ethnic info or appeasing your national feelings is the sole reason for coming here ?-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 10:50, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment 2 When you are blocked, you are not suppose to edit again or demand changes. Sadly, I wasted time with a sockpuppet. When you plan on using suckpuppets, its important not to go back to the same articles that got you blocked or where editors know you are a blocked user cause this will make discovering you easy and will lead to the same usual results: blocking and undoing of edits.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 22:15, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
My edits were mostly cosmetic, normalizing the citation style. As for Hairan, I put the remark about Nabatea in a note since there seems a consensus that its an Aramaic name. Words like "however", "some" etc are discouraged. I removed Malalas and kept Procopius; believe me, if you want to prove something, using Malalas will make your case weak. I hope not to engage in any edit wars and that we can discuss changes here.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 14:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Gog the Mild ( talk) 18:34, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
Under "Relation with Rome" you write "who attributed the attempted negotiations with Shapur to Odaenathus' quest for power", but I can't find any mention to "negotiations" earlier in the article, which makes this statement hang a little oddly and unsupported.
"this combination of title and imagery". The earlier part of the paragraph covers "imagery", but not "title". As this is a new paragraph, I am not sure how to rephrase things to introduce the title aspect.
Gog the Mild ( talk) 16:20, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
There is an error in the latinized version of the inscription. It doesn't say MDNH' ('the king of the entire EAST') but rather MDYT' ('the king of the entire PROVINCE'). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.94.134.245 ( talk) 12:42, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
A cluttering of Greek and Latin transliterations was added, but I do not see the justification for this. The Arabic transliteration have several forms but we wont add them as it will be visual pollution that serves no purpose. Aside from this, why would Odaenathus have a Greek or Latin transliteration despite him not being Greek or Roman? the fact that few Palmyrene inscriptions were in Latin, or that we have bilingual Greek and Palmyrene inscriptions doe not warrant such a prominent place for the Greek and Latin transliterations in the lead. Aramaic was used by the Parthians but we dont have the name of Parthian monarch in Aramaic, nor do we do that for Indian monarchs who used Aramiac in many inscriptions.
Also, the lead doent not need citations: they should be in the body of the article and the Name, family and appearance section cover this.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 15:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
An unreferenced sentence was added to the origin section about Vaballathus. First of all, regarding Odaenathus' ethnic origin, it is comprehensively discussed and there is no need for further evidence that he had Arab blood.
Second, regarding the name of Wahab-Allat, in the section it is already stated that it is Arabic and I quote: "his name, the name of his father, Hairan, and that of his grandfather, Wahb-Allat, are Arabic." Therefore, there is no need for repetition. Discussing the meaning of names aside from that of Odaenathus himself is out of the scope of this article.
Most importantly, mentioning that Palmyra was a centre of worship of Allat is erroneous. A centre of worship means that a city was a main "residence" of a deity (example, Manbij was a centre of Atargatis). If a diety is worshipped in a city, this does not mean that the locality was a centre of worship. If Palmyra is a centre of worship of Allat, then this needs a good academic source and in any case it does not belong in the article of Odaenathus, but the religion section of the article of Palmyra.--
Attar-Aram syria (
talk) 19:49, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
I added the sentence regarding his son, not his grandfather. He named one of his sons Wahb-Allat, which is not mentioned in the section, and it is relevant because it reveals his own cultural background and his view of it. The name not only has Arab form (Wahb/Abd/Taym + Deity) but also reveals Allat worship which is one of the most distinct Arab traditions. In fact all other mentions of people named "Wahballat" in inscriptions are assumed to be Arab without distinction, such as those found in Nabataea which are surrounded by other Arab names and considered the same stock. As for source, there's a need for a source that his son is called Wahballat? I can do that, but I linked to the wikipedia article of Vaballatus, which has ample sources on him. I will remove the Palmyra reference but if you're curious of a source see Healey, John F. (2001), The Religion of the Nabataeans: A Conspectus. Palmyra was one of the major centers of Allat worship, let's leave it at that.-- Julia Domna Ba'al ( talk) 08:30, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
Actually, deleting the line from "the origin of Odaenathus name" to "in practice" wont change much. That line can be used as a counter argument for an editor who will write that Odaenathus identified as Arab, but since no editor is doing this, then the line can be deleted and the part explaining how Palmyrenes thought of themselves kept. Is that fine with you Julia Domna Ba'al ?-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 10:09, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
This term remained unlinked in the first sentence because apparently the article Palmyrene Empire is limited to the period after his death. This doesn't make sense to me. Should the whole history of the Palmyrene state under him and his successors be in one article? Srnec ( talk) 13:07, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
[[List of Palmyrene monarchs|Palmyrene Kingdom]]
rather than pipe to Palmyrene Empire.
Srnec (
talk) 00:38, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
How was it not a kingdom? It had three kings, a regent, and a territory corresponding to the Palmyrene region (I am not counting the Roman provinces under his control). 12 years isnt ephermal given the events that took place. As for a Palmyrene kingdom article, I believe the section with that title in the article of Palmyra covers this. Another option is to rename the Palmyrene Empire into the Palmyrene kingdom and expand it to include the reign of Odaenathus and Hairan and the political changes in Palmyra that signified the end of the council's authority and the coming of the monarchy.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 03:12, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
I really think the Palmyrene Empire is just those three years. if the words Palmyrene and kingdom must appear together, the "kingdom" needs to be uncapitalized. 12 years is definitely ephemeral and three kings in as many olympiads doesn't exactly say "island of stability" to me. Hitler lasted twelve years, established kingdoms last for one or two generations at least. We have already articles for Roman provinces and for Palmyra itself. GPinkerton ( talk) 04:37, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Yes. A kingdom. Not The Palmyrene Kingdom. Was the Central African Republic really a Central African Empire under Bokassa I? GPinkerton ( talk) 06:12, 16 May 2020 (UTC)