![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
The result of the move request was: Not moved, current title kept per original proposer of move, and rough consensus not to move ( non-admin closure) — Andy W. ( talk · ctb) 06:34, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge → Malheur Refuge Standoff – Typically, such armed actions as described in this article eventually are remembered historically using brief and concise titles, such as "Shay's Rebellion," "Whiskey Rebellion," or "Fries Rebellion." Usage of such complicated and difficult to remember titles as "Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge" are never remembered or used over the long term.
History classes are hard enough as it is. Can you imagine how much harder it would have been if history teachers had to try to force us all to have to learn complex titles like "Daniel Shays Rebellion Against Perceived Economic Injustice" instead of just "Shays' Rebellion"?
I've searched Google for the most commonly used title within the press for this incident, and have come up with the "Malheur Refuge Standoff," which has 9300 Google hits. I have not been able to find any other more popular title for this article.
After attempting to move this article to the new more concise and popular title, the article was moved back with the rationale that "Google counts don't say everything." I agree with this statement, they do not say everything, but still I would like to hear a rationale as to specifically why anyone might believe that the current title is specifically better than the proposed title of "Malheur Refuge Standoff" which the press has already found to be preferred.
Based on your argument that "Google counts don't say everything, the next logical step of that argument would have to be that you must have some greater rationale than the Google count that more clearly "does say everything." If you could please clarify your rationale that you hold "trumps" the Google rationale, and the rationales listed below, and more clearly represents "everything," I would certainly like to know it.
My specific rationale for the Malheur Refuge Standoff title is three fold:
If anyone could please give me any positive specific rationale for the superior value of the Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge title, aside from the negative rationale that Google shows it as more popular, I would be happy to consider that here.
Thanks,
Scott P. ( talk) 14:44, 20 August 2016 (UTC) move template initiated by L.tak L.tak ( talk) 15:01, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
Bondegezou, I like your point about the word "occupation." I did a little more Googling using that word and here is what I found.... the phrase Malheur Occupation garners 22,000 Google hits. The best hit score yet (aside from the Wikipedia 7 word title.) Now that might make an even nicer simplification. Why try to rewrite the rules that history has always used to name historical events using titles that are short and sweet. Thank God we don't have to say the American Revolution Against British Taxation Without Representation every time we have to say the American Revolution. Or instead of the Civil War we were told we could only refer to it as the Civil War Against Slavery Imposed by Southern States? If we don't rename the article here, historians, authors and journalists will most probably rename and simplify it on their own anyways, just like they always have in the past, won't they? Scott P. ( talk) 20:20, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
It seems to me from the conversation above that the article should probably not be moved at this time. With everyone else's permission, I would like to suggest that this move-conversation be closed at this time as "keep current article title." OK? Further comments on closing as such? Thanks, Scott P. ( talk) 18:32, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
NewsandEventsGuy, I don't know if you've read Finicum's book, but in it he "prophesied" that the Mormon equivalent of Armageddon was soon to come, and that a certain hero-rancher, eriely similar to himself, would be a slayer of evil government agents. He sometimes referred to Malheur as the "Oregon Revolution" and the last few holdouts there encouraged other militia to literally kill members of the government. For these reasons, I feel that it is important that others are allowed to know as much as possible about exactly what Finicum was really thinking when he did what he did. So please leave this info in the article. Thanks, Scott P. ( talk) 15:58, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
I've created the redirect Oregon Freedom Revolution, as it was used in the militants' publications and such, so technically is a term that can refer to this incident. What do y'all think of this? MB298 ( talk) 00:11, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
I just reverted and then restored part of Alan's good faith characterization of this matter as an "armed seizure and Occupation (protest)" Note, Alan's wikilink read just "occupation"... I typed the page name here for clarity
Going to the wikilink for protest-occupation it said "entry and holding", so seizure seemed redundant.
From the perspective of the "sovereign citizen" and "sagebrush rebel" types at the refuge... again, from THEIR perspective, this was more like a confiscation. Unlike a mere protest occupation they had no plans to give the refuge back.
BUT we have to follow the RSs and the RSs (other than the 'standoff' RSs) say "occupation". The militants were adamant that they were organized, armed, willing to use force to defend their possession, and --- the key thing ---- intended to relinquish control when the feds "returned" the refuge to the county. So I think its more accurate to describe this as an "occupation" by wikilinking Military occupation, which describes an armed force holding land that isn't theirs and they don't intend to keep when the dust settles.
Thoughts? NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 00:05, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
FYI, please help build the new article Glenn Palmer (sheriff). The name might get changed for disambig purposes. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 01:33, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Here's an interesting piece from a local intimately familiar with the refuge. There are facts asserted here as well as opinion. Not sure how to use this just yet. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 13:12, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Although Finicum previously had a ranch in Yavapai County, his home was in Cane Beds, AZ, in Mohave county. The existing citations did not define any residence for him. This ranch is much closer to the Bundy Ranch in Nevada. Activist ( talk) 10:03, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
This sort of comparison will probably continue to be made. Is there a place for this somewhere? "The peaceful protest of the Dakota Pipeline by tribal people has been met by the incarceration of tribal leaders, blockage of services and inability to access needed services," Burns-Paiute Council Chair Charlotte Rodrique wrote in the tribe's letter of support. "This is certainly in contrast to how the armed militia that overtook the Malheur Wildlife last winter was treated. They were allowed to come and go as they wanted, shop at local stores, deface federal buildings and intimidate local people." http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2016/09/02/oregon-tribes-send-support-standing-rock/89774520/ NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 13:16, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
I see that I'd also conflated Alan Archer's edits with your own. I hate working on articles that are "hot." Sometimes I'll be trying to do an edit and I run into a number of edit conflicts even though I might only have started on the edits 10-15 minutes earlier. It usually doesn't happen in the wee hours, but it sure did this evening. Thanks. Activist ( talk) 10:51, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Two Democratic congressmen from Oregon said federal prosecutors should have acted much earlier to arrest Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy. Had authorities acted sooner, the lawmakers said it might have discouraged militants inspired by Bundy from occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Reps. Earl Blumenauer of Portland and Peter DeFazio of Springfield on Thursday called for tough federal prosecution against both Bundy and the militants who ended their nearly six-week long occupation the same day. “I am very pleased that the federal authorities finally acted to arrest Mr. Bundy,” DeFazio said in a telephone interview. “Unlike tens of thousands of ranchers across the West who get an incredibly sweet deal on federal lands, he’s refused to pay his fees, grazed illegally in protected habitat and threatened federal agents himself and with his friends with guns. He should have been prosecuted two years ago, and Malheur wouldn’t have happened." DeFazio said he had asked...he was told that “because it’s going to a criminal case, it has to be airtight. I said, ‘Two years?’ And they were pretty quiet on that.” DeFazio said Bundy and the occupiers should be “vigorously prosecuted” and added that the government should “get much more aggressive against insurrectionists on the radical fringe.” [1]
I was just using the blockquote from the cited source to support the reliability of my brief edit that contrasted the substantial differences between Walden as opposed to the other elected officials. Because of the inadvertent paragraph break, the citatiion was separated from the text it supported. I also had taken the word "circumspect," directly from the cited source, rather than substituting my own synonym in the reworded digest text. Activist ( talk) 13:13, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
References
The description of the death of LaVoy Finicum used the word, "allegedly," about his reaching for a gun. I've read many reliable sources that were contemporary to the incident and none use that weasel word. The current cited sources certainly do not. I'm changing it to "apparently," which I think is the least controversial descriptor since the many contemporary reliable sources I reviewed all say he reached for it, and it was in his inside jacket pocket when he was killed. Moreover, he demanded that the LEO's who had pulled him over either shoot him or let him proceed to the intended meeting. That's on the video taken by his companion in the SUV he drove. Statements he made prior to the drive indicated he would not consider backing down in his demands and was willing to die if he didn't get his way. I've added a citation from one of those definitive sources. This isn't a defense of the tactics which were used by those attempting to take him into custody, just a simple statement of fact. If any editor wants to revert this change, please seek consensus first and ping those editors who have been involved in contributing to the article. Thank you. Activist ( talk) 20:05, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
A discussion about Ryan Bundy's shrapnel wound can be found here. Please join us. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 15:18, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Is it worth noting the militants did not plan for a long siege and appealed for supplies to be shipped to them at the refuge and via delivery options in town..critics responded by sending candy phalluses, sex toys, condoms and lubricants as a form of commentary...
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/oregon-militia-gag-gifts-dildos-article-1.2495329
-- Patbahn ( talk) 03:45, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Something to perhaps fold in is that the main charge, conspiracy to impede federal officials blahblah, has also been used against the tree huggers. One RS that makes the generic point is https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/10/28/off-the-charts-unbelievable-will-acquittal-of-oregon-refuge-occupiers-embolden-extremists-militias/ A good future todo is to track down specific example to see if that would lead to an article improvement in the section talking about charges and the trial. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 12:58, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Gathering links related to Mumford's "yelling" at the judge about releasing Bundys.
Comments re background... when Mumford yelled at judge, he was yelling about Nevada not having jurisdiction and therefore, according to him, the federal marshals could not keep the Bundys in custody.... but (of course) the first two documents above are FEDERAL (not Nevada state) court orders that Bundys must remain in custody until trial for the 2014
Bundy standoff. It's incromprehensible (to me anyway) that Mumford did not know about the pending FEDERAL detention orders when he staged had his confrontation with Judge Brown. But back to our article.... we should elaborate on the orders for detention (no bail) in both cases in the logical sequential place, and try harder to not be redundant when it comes to mentioning Mumfords antics argument with the judge.
NewsAndEventsGuy (
talk)
16:31, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
MB298 ( talk) 00:16, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
This is the most bias artical I have ever read on Wikipedia, It has an extreamly one sided view and has cherry picked sources to support it's narrative. 81.171.3.212 ( talk) 07:25, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:29, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
This is a popular contention with many police shootings. However there is some evidence this is the case. I have cited this article: http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/04/ammon_bundy_to_challenge_autho.html Foia req ( talk) 05:36, 9 August 2017 (UTC) actually it turns out I copied the wrong link http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_lie_uncove.html Foia req ( talk) 05:37, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
There are some interesting facts not included in the article yet, on the use of informants, brought up in the trial: [1] [2] It might be good to include them, especially once the trail is over or once court documents can be accessed to find additional sources for verification. -- BurritoBazooka Talk Contribs 11:52, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
I've made a substantial number of edits to bring the article up to date, and read a great deal of the cited stories, but have not done one necessary task. Without comparing the list of indictments of the 27 defendants with the resolution of the individual cases, I only have accounted for the results for 24 defendants: Seven acquittals, charges dropped in one case, at least 12 pleaded guilty, and four convicted at trial. I'm not sure about the fate of the other three. I hope someone will do a chart, not necessarily for posting which is a very time-consuming process, though it would be very helpful, and might thereby resolve this discrepancy. There's a posted chart in a similarly complex case, the "Fat Leonard Scandal," which could serve as a template. Activist ( talk) 08:34, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Citation 31, the one cited in population and area statistics, links to an active website with a very poor and possibly broken template. In its current state it may be better to locate an alternative citation, this data should be available relatively easily. I'm not very experienced with managing citation text and the source code interface so I am personally nervous about working on it, anyone want to manage this one or should I handle it? Jyggalypuff ( talk) 18:24, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
I question the neutrality of "anti-government militias." Who's declaring them anti-government, but their detractors? For example, on the "About" page of the III %ers website at http://www.iiisecurityforce.com/about.html the group discusses how militias are often viewed as anti-government, but that they don't consider themselves to be so.
So, if this article is neutral on that point, why are we using the words of their detractors but not the words of the militia group itself?
Also, what defines "anti-government?" The groups, though many people may not like them, organize and govern themselves. They have leaders, protocol, and a hierarchy. What is that but government? BudJillett ( talk) 20:42, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
@ NorthBySouthBaranof:Twenty of the articles from reliable sources cited in the Wikipedia article on the Occupation use the word, "Militant" in their very titles, to describe the occupiers. Allowing the article to be scrubbed and sanitized by instead calling the militants "protesters," is simply absurd. Many carried pocket copies of W. Cleon Skousen's bizarre interpretations of the constitution with them. In my opinion, that ignoring of over 230 years of jurisprudence constitutes a prima facie case for their position as "anti-government." Activist ( talk) 23:21, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
The result of the move request was: Not moved, current title kept per original proposer of move, and rough consensus not to move ( non-admin closure) — Andy W. ( talk · ctb) 06:34, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge → Malheur Refuge Standoff – Typically, such armed actions as described in this article eventually are remembered historically using brief and concise titles, such as "Shay's Rebellion," "Whiskey Rebellion," or "Fries Rebellion." Usage of such complicated and difficult to remember titles as "Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge" are never remembered or used over the long term.
History classes are hard enough as it is. Can you imagine how much harder it would have been if history teachers had to try to force us all to have to learn complex titles like "Daniel Shays Rebellion Against Perceived Economic Injustice" instead of just "Shays' Rebellion"?
I've searched Google for the most commonly used title within the press for this incident, and have come up with the "Malheur Refuge Standoff," which has 9300 Google hits. I have not been able to find any other more popular title for this article.
After attempting to move this article to the new more concise and popular title, the article was moved back with the rationale that "Google counts don't say everything." I agree with this statement, they do not say everything, but still I would like to hear a rationale as to specifically why anyone might believe that the current title is specifically better than the proposed title of "Malheur Refuge Standoff" which the press has already found to be preferred.
Based on your argument that "Google counts don't say everything, the next logical step of that argument would have to be that you must have some greater rationale than the Google count that more clearly "does say everything." If you could please clarify your rationale that you hold "trumps" the Google rationale, and the rationales listed below, and more clearly represents "everything," I would certainly like to know it.
My specific rationale for the Malheur Refuge Standoff title is three fold:
If anyone could please give me any positive specific rationale for the superior value of the Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge title, aside from the negative rationale that Google shows it as more popular, I would be happy to consider that here.
Thanks,
Scott P. ( talk) 14:44, 20 August 2016 (UTC) move template initiated by L.tak L.tak ( talk) 15:01, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
Bondegezou, I like your point about the word "occupation." I did a little more Googling using that word and here is what I found.... the phrase Malheur Occupation garners 22,000 Google hits. The best hit score yet (aside from the Wikipedia 7 word title.) Now that might make an even nicer simplification. Why try to rewrite the rules that history has always used to name historical events using titles that are short and sweet. Thank God we don't have to say the American Revolution Against British Taxation Without Representation every time we have to say the American Revolution. Or instead of the Civil War we were told we could only refer to it as the Civil War Against Slavery Imposed by Southern States? If we don't rename the article here, historians, authors and journalists will most probably rename and simplify it on their own anyways, just like they always have in the past, won't they? Scott P. ( talk) 20:20, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
It seems to me from the conversation above that the article should probably not be moved at this time. With everyone else's permission, I would like to suggest that this move-conversation be closed at this time as "keep current article title." OK? Further comments on closing as such? Thanks, Scott P. ( talk) 18:32, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
NewsandEventsGuy, I don't know if you've read Finicum's book, but in it he "prophesied" that the Mormon equivalent of Armageddon was soon to come, and that a certain hero-rancher, eriely similar to himself, would be a slayer of evil government agents. He sometimes referred to Malheur as the "Oregon Revolution" and the last few holdouts there encouraged other militia to literally kill members of the government. For these reasons, I feel that it is important that others are allowed to know as much as possible about exactly what Finicum was really thinking when he did what he did. So please leave this info in the article. Thanks, Scott P. ( talk) 15:58, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
I've created the redirect Oregon Freedom Revolution, as it was used in the militants' publications and such, so technically is a term that can refer to this incident. What do y'all think of this? MB298 ( talk) 00:11, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
I just reverted and then restored part of Alan's good faith characterization of this matter as an "armed seizure and Occupation (protest)" Note, Alan's wikilink read just "occupation"... I typed the page name here for clarity
Going to the wikilink for protest-occupation it said "entry and holding", so seizure seemed redundant.
From the perspective of the "sovereign citizen" and "sagebrush rebel" types at the refuge... again, from THEIR perspective, this was more like a confiscation. Unlike a mere protest occupation they had no plans to give the refuge back.
BUT we have to follow the RSs and the RSs (other than the 'standoff' RSs) say "occupation". The militants were adamant that they were organized, armed, willing to use force to defend their possession, and --- the key thing ---- intended to relinquish control when the feds "returned" the refuge to the county. So I think its more accurate to describe this as an "occupation" by wikilinking Military occupation, which describes an armed force holding land that isn't theirs and they don't intend to keep when the dust settles.
Thoughts? NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 00:05, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
FYI, please help build the new article Glenn Palmer (sheriff). The name might get changed for disambig purposes. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 01:33, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Here's an interesting piece from a local intimately familiar with the refuge. There are facts asserted here as well as opinion. Not sure how to use this just yet. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 13:12, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Although Finicum previously had a ranch in Yavapai County, his home was in Cane Beds, AZ, in Mohave county. The existing citations did not define any residence for him. This ranch is much closer to the Bundy Ranch in Nevada. Activist ( talk) 10:03, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
This sort of comparison will probably continue to be made. Is there a place for this somewhere? "The peaceful protest of the Dakota Pipeline by tribal people has been met by the incarceration of tribal leaders, blockage of services and inability to access needed services," Burns-Paiute Council Chair Charlotte Rodrique wrote in the tribe's letter of support. "This is certainly in contrast to how the armed militia that overtook the Malheur Wildlife last winter was treated. They were allowed to come and go as they wanted, shop at local stores, deface federal buildings and intimidate local people." http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2016/09/02/oregon-tribes-send-support-standing-rock/89774520/ NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 13:16, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
I see that I'd also conflated Alan Archer's edits with your own. I hate working on articles that are "hot." Sometimes I'll be trying to do an edit and I run into a number of edit conflicts even though I might only have started on the edits 10-15 minutes earlier. It usually doesn't happen in the wee hours, but it sure did this evening. Thanks. Activist ( talk) 10:51, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Two Democratic congressmen from Oregon said federal prosecutors should have acted much earlier to arrest Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy. Had authorities acted sooner, the lawmakers said it might have discouraged militants inspired by Bundy from occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Reps. Earl Blumenauer of Portland and Peter DeFazio of Springfield on Thursday called for tough federal prosecution against both Bundy and the militants who ended their nearly six-week long occupation the same day. “I am very pleased that the federal authorities finally acted to arrest Mr. Bundy,” DeFazio said in a telephone interview. “Unlike tens of thousands of ranchers across the West who get an incredibly sweet deal on federal lands, he’s refused to pay his fees, grazed illegally in protected habitat and threatened federal agents himself and with his friends with guns. He should have been prosecuted two years ago, and Malheur wouldn’t have happened." DeFazio said he had asked...he was told that “because it’s going to a criminal case, it has to be airtight. I said, ‘Two years?’ And they were pretty quiet on that.” DeFazio said Bundy and the occupiers should be “vigorously prosecuted” and added that the government should “get much more aggressive against insurrectionists on the radical fringe.” [1]
I was just using the blockquote from the cited source to support the reliability of my brief edit that contrasted the substantial differences between Walden as opposed to the other elected officials. Because of the inadvertent paragraph break, the citatiion was separated from the text it supported. I also had taken the word "circumspect," directly from the cited source, rather than substituting my own synonym in the reworded digest text. Activist ( talk) 13:13, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
References
The description of the death of LaVoy Finicum used the word, "allegedly," about his reaching for a gun. I've read many reliable sources that were contemporary to the incident and none use that weasel word. The current cited sources certainly do not. I'm changing it to "apparently," which I think is the least controversial descriptor since the many contemporary reliable sources I reviewed all say he reached for it, and it was in his inside jacket pocket when he was killed. Moreover, he demanded that the LEO's who had pulled him over either shoot him or let him proceed to the intended meeting. That's on the video taken by his companion in the SUV he drove. Statements he made prior to the drive indicated he would not consider backing down in his demands and was willing to die if he didn't get his way. I've added a citation from one of those definitive sources. This isn't a defense of the tactics which were used by those attempting to take him into custody, just a simple statement of fact. If any editor wants to revert this change, please seek consensus first and ping those editors who have been involved in contributing to the article. Thank you. Activist ( talk) 20:05, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
A discussion about Ryan Bundy's shrapnel wound can be found here. Please join us. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 15:18, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Is it worth noting the militants did not plan for a long siege and appealed for supplies to be shipped to them at the refuge and via delivery options in town..critics responded by sending candy phalluses, sex toys, condoms and lubricants as a form of commentary...
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/oregon-militia-gag-gifts-dildos-article-1.2495329
-- Patbahn ( talk) 03:45, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Something to perhaps fold in is that the main charge, conspiracy to impede federal officials blahblah, has also been used against the tree huggers. One RS that makes the generic point is https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/10/28/off-the-charts-unbelievable-will-acquittal-of-oregon-refuge-occupiers-embolden-extremists-militias/ A good future todo is to track down specific example to see if that would lead to an article improvement in the section talking about charges and the trial. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 12:58, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Gathering links related to Mumford's "yelling" at the judge about releasing Bundys.
Comments re background... when Mumford yelled at judge, he was yelling about Nevada not having jurisdiction and therefore, according to him, the federal marshals could not keep the Bundys in custody.... but (of course) the first two documents above are FEDERAL (not Nevada state) court orders that Bundys must remain in custody until trial for the 2014
Bundy standoff. It's incromprehensible (to me anyway) that Mumford did not know about the pending FEDERAL detention orders when he staged had his confrontation with Judge Brown. But back to our article.... we should elaborate on the orders for detention (no bail) in both cases in the logical sequential place, and try harder to not be redundant when it comes to mentioning Mumfords antics argument with the judge.
NewsAndEventsGuy (
talk)
16:31, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
MB298 ( talk) 00:16, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
This is the most bias artical I have ever read on Wikipedia, It has an extreamly one sided view and has cherry picked sources to support it's narrative. 81.171.3.212 ( talk) 07:25, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:29, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
This is a popular contention with many police shootings. However there is some evidence this is the case. I have cited this article: http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/04/ammon_bundy_to_challenge_autho.html Foia req ( talk) 05:36, 9 August 2017 (UTC) actually it turns out I copied the wrong link http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_lie_uncove.html Foia req ( talk) 05:37, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
There are some interesting facts not included in the article yet, on the use of informants, brought up in the trial: [1] [2] It might be good to include them, especially once the trail is over or once court documents can be accessed to find additional sources for verification. -- BurritoBazooka Talk Contribs 11:52, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
I've made a substantial number of edits to bring the article up to date, and read a great deal of the cited stories, but have not done one necessary task. Without comparing the list of indictments of the 27 defendants with the resolution of the individual cases, I only have accounted for the results for 24 defendants: Seven acquittals, charges dropped in one case, at least 12 pleaded guilty, and four convicted at trial. I'm not sure about the fate of the other three. I hope someone will do a chart, not necessarily for posting which is a very time-consuming process, though it would be very helpful, and might thereby resolve this discrepancy. There's a posted chart in a similarly complex case, the "Fat Leonard Scandal," which could serve as a template. Activist ( talk) 08:34, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Citation 31, the one cited in population and area statistics, links to an active website with a very poor and possibly broken template. In its current state it may be better to locate an alternative citation, this data should be available relatively easily. I'm not very experienced with managing citation text and the source code interface so I am personally nervous about working on it, anyone want to manage this one or should I handle it? Jyggalypuff ( talk) 18:24, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
I question the neutrality of "anti-government militias." Who's declaring them anti-government, but their detractors? For example, on the "About" page of the III %ers website at http://www.iiisecurityforce.com/about.html the group discusses how militias are often viewed as anti-government, but that they don't consider themselves to be so.
So, if this article is neutral on that point, why are we using the words of their detractors but not the words of the militia group itself?
Also, what defines "anti-government?" The groups, though many people may not like them, organize and govern themselves. They have leaders, protocol, and a hierarchy. What is that but government? BudJillett ( talk) 20:42, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
@ NorthBySouthBaranof:Twenty of the articles from reliable sources cited in the Wikipedia article on the Occupation use the word, "Militant" in their very titles, to describe the occupiers. Allowing the article to be scrubbed and sanitized by instead calling the militants "protesters," is simply absurd. Many carried pocket copies of W. Cleon Skousen's bizarre interpretations of the constitution with them. In my opinion, that ignoring of over 230 years of jurisprudence constitutes a prima facie case for their position as "anti-government." Activist ( talk) 23:21, 18 December 2017 (UTC)