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First of all, ATIBT (Association Technique Internationale des Bois Tropicaux) and CIRAD do not even mention true acacia as a possible type of wood for barrel fabrication in their manual (see page 72 "tonnellerie" https://www.atibt.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/ATIBT-GUIDE-FR-web.pdf ), instead they mention Iroko, Movingui, Pao rosa and a few others as African species which could possibly be considered as alternatives to traditional woods used in barrel making. Also, in French, "acacia" is erroneously but very widely used to designate robinia pseudoacacia, whose correct common name in French is "Faux Acacia" and or "Robinier". Despite the name confusion, the erroneous term is often used commercially, for example with honey harvested from Black Locust flowers, under the name "miel d'acacia",the same flowers being used in the French dessert "beignets d'acacia". Check this wine barrel maker, "Tonnellerie Rousseau, Père & Fils" http://www.tonnellerie-rousseau.fr/activites who mentions briefly the common misleading term "acacia" and later corrects it when describing the correct name of the wood "Robinier Faux Acacia". Check this wine barrel maker , Jean Thoulouse, who uses the incorrect but somehow commercially accepted term "acacia" http://www.barriques.fr/#three , see in the background the photo of the trees: black locust. The company explains that already in literature from 1861 black locust had acquired a reputation for being excellent if not the best for certain types of white wine , especially those of the Sauternes region, where some large sized black locust barrels were at least a century old. Here is a reference, from "Forêt Entreprise n 138, 2001, page 38" https://www.acacia-robinier.be/Documentation_comment_planter_foret_robinier_sylviculture_acacia/Fo%20r%20%EA%20t%20-%20e%20n%20t%20r%20e%20p%20r%20i%20s%20e%20%20n%201%203%208.pdf where they summarize various older articles from 1988, 1992 and 1996 where Robinia Pseudoacacia (Robinier Faux-Acacia in French) is mentioned as being used for making barrels for Sauternes liquorous wine. It is not mentioned in this article, but black locust wood is generally heat treated or simply steamed to get rid of the toxins if the intended use is contact with food or beverages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.195.123.143 ( talk) 03:24, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Some of the information in the Barrel alternative section is from the merged Oak chips article. Agne Cheese/ Wine 05:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Some items that I would like to expand on in the article (but need more sources) is a little more history on the development and use of oak as well as a criticism section on the "over oakiness" of some modern wines. Agne Cheese/ Wine 02:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I wish this page listed the exact species of oak meant by the terms "American oak" and "French oak". Matthew cargo ( talk) 04:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
I've deleted the following claim from the page, as I beleive it to be scientifically unsupported:
"Studies have found that there maybe some health benefit from wine that has been in contact with oak. In 2003, scientists at Institut Européen de Chimie et Biologie in Pessac, France found that when the oak tannin vescalagin interact with phenols in wine a polyphenol known as acutissimin A is created which has been shown to be 250 times more effective then the pharmaceutical drug Etoposide in stopping the growth of cancerous tumors." (ref: J. Gaffney " French Scientists Find New Anti-Cancer Substance in Red Wine" Wine Spectator Dec. 24th 2003)
While I am not a Wine Spectator member, and thus cannot read the directly referenced article, I believe it is a popular press account of the following scientific paper from scientists at the Institut Européen de Chimie et Biologie: Quideau S, Jourdes M, Saucier C, Glories Y, Pardon P, Baudry C (2003). "DNA topoisomerase inhibitor acutissimin a and other flavano-ellagitannins in red wine". Angew. Chem. Int. Ed. Engl. 42 (48): 6012–4.
doi:
10.1002/anie.200352089.
PMID
14679557.{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
The authors of this paper did not study the effects of acutissimin A on "the growth of cancerous tumors". Rather, they showed that acutissimin A is formed in red wine aged in oak, and determined the chemical reaction which creates it. They the referred back to a 1992 paper by a Japanese group which compared the ability of acutissimin A to inhibit a test-tube reaction catalysed by DNA topoisomerase A, the target of the chemotherapy drug etoposide. Interestingly, while the Japanese group found that acutissimin A was 250 times more potent than etoposide in inhibiting the test-tube reaction, they also found that this did not create breaks in DNA, the mechanism by which etoposide kills cancer cells. Since neither the Japanese nor French groups seem to have studied cancer cells (let alone cancer patients), these studies give no support to the idea that this chemical found in wine is useful for either the treatment or the prevention of cancer.
“ | In 2003, scientists at Institut Européen de Chimie et Biologie in Pessac, France found that when the oak tannin vescalagin interact with phenols in wine a polyphenol known as acutissimin A is created. In separate studies this polyphenol has been shown to be 250 times more effective then the pharmaceutical drug Etoposide in stopping the growth of cancerous tumors. | ” |
With this revision, we remove the phrasing "health benefit" and just mention the two studies. The reliable sources mention both tidbits so it is not synthesis on our part but we are making more clear that there are at least two different studies at play. Agne Cheese/ Wine 02:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)). The abstract I have read makes no mention of etoposide or any other established cancer drug, so it's not clear that a direct comparison was made. In any case, these studies were still done in a test tube, and it is a very long stretch to say that this chemical could prevent or cure tumors in an animal or person. -
Rustavo
Talk/
Contribs 04:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)This article seems to be a fairly safe B. The one glaring need is a stronger lead summary in accordance to WP:LEAD. I suppose it could go into more details about the different sizes or barrel types used but that info is probably better suited to the aging barrel article. Other thoughts (particularly the French Project which has this rated as start) would be welcomed. Agne Cheese/ Wine 23:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
This article talk page was automatically added with {{ WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot ( talk) 00:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
This article is specifically about the winemaking aspects of oak because there is already a main Barrel article that would deal with the use of oak barrels to hold other liquids. As this is a winemaking topic (as evidence by the fact that there is little to no non-wine related content in the article), the wine dab seems highly relevant. I would hope the editor that did the page move would reconsider. Agne Cheese/ Wine 08:01, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
There is some contradiction in this article with regards to oak imparting butter flavours to wine. One sentence seems to state that oak adds a butter note, then later on another sentence claims this is a myth.
Can we get a bit of consistency regarding this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.151.4.156 ( talk) 23:47, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
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First of all, ATIBT (Association Technique Internationale des Bois Tropicaux) and CIRAD do not even mention true acacia as a possible type of wood for barrel fabrication in their manual (see page 72 "tonnellerie" https://www.atibt.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/ATIBT-GUIDE-FR-web.pdf ), instead they mention Iroko, Movingui, Pao rosa and a few others as African species which could possibly be considered as alternatives to traditional woods used in barrel making. Also, in French, "acacia" is erroneously but very widely used to designate robinia pseudoacacia, whose correct common name in French is "Faux Acacia" and or "Robinier". Despite the name confusion, the erroneous term is often used commercially, for example with honey harvested from Black Locust flowers, under the name "miel d'acacia",the same flowers being used in the French dessert "beignets d'acacia". Check this wine barrel maker, "Tonnellerie Rousseau, Père & Fils" http://www.tonnellerie-rousseau.fr/activites who mentions briefly the common misleading term "acacia" and later corrects it when describing the correct name of the wood "Robinier Faux Acacia". Check this wine barrel maker , Jean Thoulouse, who uses the incorrect but somehow commercially accepted term "acacia" http://www.barriques.fr/#three , see in the background the photo of the trees: black locust. The company explains that already in literature from 1861 black locust had acquired a reputation for being excellent if not the best for certain types of white wine , especially those of the Sauternes region, where some large sized black locust barrels were at least a century old. Here is a reference, from "Forêt Entreprise n 138, 2001, page 38" https://www.acacia-robinier.be/Documentation_comment_planter_foret_robinier_sylviculture_acacia/Fo%20r%20%EA%20t%20-%20e%20n%20t%20r%20e%20p%20r%20i%20s%20e%20%20n%201%203%208.pdf where they summarize various older articles from 1988, 1992 and 1996 where Robinia Pseudoacacia (Robinier Faux-Acacia in French) is mentioned as being used for making barrels for Sauternes liquorous wine. It is not mentioned in this article, but black locust wood is generally heat treated or simply steamed to get rid of the toxins if the intended use is contact with food or beverages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.195.123.143 ( talk) 03:24, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Some of the information in the Barrel alternative section is from the merged Oak chips article. Agne Cheese/ Wine 05:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Some items that I would like to expand on in the article (but need more sources) is a little more history on the development and use of oak as well as a criticism section on the "over oakiness" of some modern wines. Agne Cheese/ Wine 02:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I wish this page listed the exact species of oak meant by the terms "American oak" and "French oak". Matthew cargo ( talk) 04:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
I've deleted the following claim from the page, as I beleive it to be scientifically unsupported:
"Studies have found that there maybe some health benefit from wine that has been in contact with oak. In 2003, scientists at Institut Européen de Chimie et Biologie in Pessac, France found that when the oak tannin vescalagin interact with phenols in wine a polyphenol known as acutissimin A is created which has been shown to be 250 times more effective then the pharmaceutical drug Etoposide in stopping the growth of cancerous tumors." (ref: J. Gaffney " French Scientists Find New Anti-Cancer Substance in Red Wine" Wine Spectator Dec. 24th 2003)
While I am not a Wine Spectator member, and thus cannot read the directly referenced article, I believe it is a popular press account of the following scientific paper from scientists at the Institut Européen de Chimie et Biologie: Quideau S, Jourdes M, Saucier C, Glories Y, Pardon P, Baudry C (2003). "DNA topoisomerase inhibitor acutissimin a and other flavano-ellagitannins in red wine". Angew. Chem. Int. Ed. Engl. 42 (48): 6012–4.
doi:
10.1002/anie.200352089.
PMID
14679557.{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
The authors of this paper did not study the effects of acutissimin A on "the growth of cancerous tumors". Rather, they showed that acutissimin A is formed in red wine aged in oak, and determined the chemical reaction which creates it. They the referred back to a 1992 paper by a Japanese group which compared the ability of acutissimin A to inhibit a test-tube reaction catalysed by DNA topoisomerase A, the target of the chemotherapy drug etoposide. Interestingly, while the Japanese group found that acutissimin A was 250 times more potent than etoposide in inhibiting the test-tube reaction, they also found that this did not create breaks in DNA, the mechanism by which etoposide kills cancer cells. Since neither the Japanese nor French groups seem to have studied cancer cells (let alone cancer patients), these studies give no support to the idea that this chemical found in wine is useful for either the treatment or the prevention of cancer.
“ | In 2003, scientists at Institut Européen de Chimie et Biologie in Pessac, France found that when the oak tannin vescalagin interact with phenols in wine a polyphenol known as acutissimin A is created. In separate studies this polyphenol has been shown to be 250 times more effective then the pharmaceutical drug Etoposide in stopping the growth of cancerous tumors. | ” |
With this revision, we remove the phrasing "health benefit" and just mention the two studies. The reliable sources mention both tidbits so it is not synthesis on our part but we are making more clear that there are at least two different studies at play. Agne Cheese/ Wine 02:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)). The abstract I have read makes no mention of etoposide or any other established cancer drug, so it's not clear that a direct comparison was made. In any case, these studies were still done in a test tube, and it is a very long stretch to say that this chemical could prevent or cure tumors in an animal or person. -
Rustavo
Talk/
Contribs 04:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)This article seems to be a fairly safe B. The one glaring need is a stronger lead summary in accordance to WP:LEAD. I suppose it could go into more details about the different sizes or barrel types used but that info is probably better suited to the aging barrel article. Other thoughts (particularly the French Project which has this rated as start) would be welcomed. Agne Cheese/ Wine 23:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
This article talk page was automatically added with {{ WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot ( talk) 00:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
This article is specifically about the winemaking aspects of oak because there is already a main Barrel article that would deal with the use of oak barrels to hold other liquids. As this is a winemaking topic (as evidence by the fact that there is little to no non-wine related content in the article), the wine dab seems highly relevant. I would hope the editor that did the page move would reconsider. Agne Cheese/ Wine 08:01, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
There is some contradiction in this article with regards to oak imparting butter flavours to wine. One sentence seems to state that oak adds a butter note, then later on another sentence claims this is a myth.
Can we get a bit of consistency regarding this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.151.4.156 ( talk) 23:47, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 4 external links on
Oak (wine). Please take a moment to review
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 00:51, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Oak (wine). Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:58, 28 February 2016 (UTC)