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Haft sin is not just any 7 things starting with a sin. It is 7 specific items, all starting with a sin, and each one has a special meaning! Can someone please correct this (major) issue please. Ahmad 19:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The goldfish:
I'm sorry but the bowl with a goldfish is not a persian tradition. It's more or less a modern occurence (since around 80 years)leading to abuse and death of millions of goldfish. Looking at the natural distribution of the grey carp (which was domiesticated by the chinese to the goldfish) we can see that you can not find them in the near east where Iran is placed. You can only find them living in east Asia. How could it be possible for the ancient persians to get that fish from kilometers far away just to put them on their Haft-Sin table? So the information given here is wrong. It would be nice to change that.
But in ancient persia they did have a bowl filled with fresh water! Inside that you could find a red apple or a pomgranade.
If you look at old paintings of the Haft-Sin you will see that but you will never find a goldfish on them.
Thank you!
Saman02 —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Saman02 (
talk •
contribs)
16:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
This article (published by Mehr News Agency, 12 March 2010), in Persian, argues that goldfish has no deep historical root in the Iranian Haftsin. It states that goldfish was introduced in Iran as late as some 70-80 years ago, together with tea, from China. A very relevant information in this article is that in the painting by Kamal ol-Molk, in Golestan Palace, of a Haftsin, there is no goldfish to be seen. The article further states that the colour red, now-a-days represented by goldfish, is in the Zoroastrian traditions represented by pommegranate and red apples.
It is perhaps relevant to mention that Mehr News Agency is very genuinely concerned about wildlife, state of the historical monuments, etc. They often provoke hostile comments by the officials for their unapologetic reports. Examples of their positive campaign for wildlife are this ("... living animals that die innocently"), this ("death of goldfish"), and this ("Recommendations of animal husbandry concerning buying and taking care of goldfish"). --BF 17:28, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Happy Nowruz to both of you. Baa ham digar bishtar mehrabaaan baashid, maa iroonihaa keh beh joz hammihanaanemaan kaseh digar nadaarim. I have not even read this argument. On the term KaraaMaahi in Avesta, that is just incidental resembelence with the Qara in Turkish. Here is the fish [1]. "'I invoke the Kara fish 89, who lives beneath waters in the bottom of the deep lakes". It says: "The Kar-mâhî, the Ratu or chief of the creatures that live in water". The etymology here for Kara is probably "Large, gigantic". In some NW Iranian language "Kara" (Taati of Qazvin and etc.) means large and is related to modern Persian "Kalan" (a large amount). -- Pahlavannariman ( talk) 14:45, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
It is absolutely wrong to call Nowruz only Iranian new year. Nowruz has been celebrated for the past 3000 years in many countries. Nowruz was created during Zoarastarian whose capital was current Balkh province of Afghanistan. Revision and correction is necessary. Thank You Yasin Samadzada —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.218.155.210 ( talk) 16:33, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
You should add it to page. According to one of the famous and most popular myth of Turks, Ergenekon Myth, Turks exited from Ergenekon Valley in Nevruz. Turkic people are celebrating Nevruz because of this Myth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
The source is the Ergenekon Myths itself, its a written Myth whoever can read. It's not Kurdish fest, it's Turkish fest. Kurds adapted Nevruz from Turkic people. There is no historical evidence that there is a Kurdistan an in there Newroz celebrated by Kurds! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.140.225.241 ( talk) 21:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
There is this part in the article where it states "Also all Albanians celebrate a secular version of Nowruz, called Spring Day." There are two mistakes here. 1. Albanians do not celebrate "a Spring Day", it's called the Summer Day, it's an ancient Albanian-Illyrian pagan festival with its own set of traditional local rites to be performed according to each region nationwide. 2. It's not "secular" as in some juxtaposition with Eastern religions, because its an autocthonus tradition of the old Sun Cult (the main cult of Illyrians). Any resemblances of the Summer Day festival with the Sultan Nowruz of the Bektashis, are just that, resemblances; mainly due to the fact that Albanian Bektashis have incorporated Albanian rites in their Sultan Nowruz, but they don't relate to each other. Someone should remove that sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.91.116.237 ( talk) 10:18, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Some users are adding the flag/s of the country/ies of their choice. The countries/regions that are listed there include about 18 names. What are the criteria to choose two-three countries and add their flags to the list of other 4 flagged ones? I think reasons like this in edit summary do not address the issue. Xashaiar ( talk) 04:03, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
As long as the turkeys flag isn´t among the other flags, i am satisfied. But check out this site.....why do they say that newroz is celebrated in turkey? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newroz_as_celebrated_by_Kurds // kakhajir —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.113.211.197 ( talk) 02:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
This is the verdict of one of the highest Zoroastrian institutions the world over, The Association of The Mobeds of Tehran. Specifically, they state:
نتیجه : همانگونه که از چند سال پیش به آگاهی همکیشان رسانیدیم و هر ساله می گوییم: گذاردن ماهی زنده ، درسرسفره هفت سین، به هیچ وجه ازسنت زرتشتیان و ایرانیان باستان نبوده و نمی باشد.
Translation:
"Conclusion: In accordance with the information that we have been providing to our co-religionists since a number of years, which we repeat every year, placing a living fish on the Haftsin table has never been and is not a tradition of Zoroastrians and of ancient Persians."
I conclude by reproducing part of the e-mail message that I have forwarded to Jimbo Wales in connection with the blocking of my Wikipedia account, first for 48 hours and subsequently totally unlawfully for further 2 weeks, following the dispute on this page, and some other relevant issues concerning some abusive editors:
>> Visiting the main Wikipedia entry of Nowruz, one will encounter the
>> following statement:
>>
>> "As an essential object of the Nowruz table, this goldfish is also "very
>> ancient and meaningful" and with Zoroastrian connection.[45]"
>>
>> This statement has been added by Used:Xashaiar to the entry on 16 March
>> 2010. This statement is false, and Ref.~[45] states nothing of the kind. ...
Clearly, someone should now take the trouble and remove the falsehood that User:Xhashiar has peddled on the main page, and worst of all, falsely attributed it to the Iranica article by Shahbazi, namely this one:
>> "As an essential object of the Nowruz table, this goldfish is also "very >> ancient and meaningful" and with Zoroastrian connection.[45]"
I do not do that myself, as I do not wish to have any involvement with Nowruz any longer.
--BF 06:00, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The article suggests that the Jewish holiday of Purim probably comes from the Persian New Year. This is not true. The Jewish calendar is based on the lunar cycle, and therefore runs on a completely different schedule than the regular everyday calendar. The holiday of Purim takes place on the 12th Jewish month of Adar, on the 14th day. This is based on the historical fact that, when under persian rule, the persian king and his main officer had planned to kill all the Jews in the persian empire —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.157.145.41 ( talk) 17:17, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Please, before opening a new section, look at the article and see if there are the same article. In this situation, for more information and reasons read the Purim part of this page. P. Pajouhesh ( talk) 00:37, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Along with Ismailis,[79] Alawites and Alevis, the Twelver Shi’a also hold the day of Nowruz in high regard.
This sentence should read Along with the Twelver Shia, the Ismailis, Alawites and Alevis also hold the day of Nowruz in high regard. Putting the Twelver Shia last in the list makes it seem as if they are the minority group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 05:55, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Minor nit. "patrani machchi (chicken steamed in a leaf)" should be "patrani machchi (fish steamed in a leaf)", in the "Nowruz in India" section.
71.189.190.114 ( talk) 19:24, 19 March 2012 (UTC)Dorab
The Jewish festival of Purim was NOT adopted from the Persian New Year. It is a holiday celebrating the annulment of a decree to annihilate the Jewish people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.116.169.56 ( talk) 22:36, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
is it really necessary and proportionate to have to many alternative latin spellings?? Eugene-elgato ( talk) 14:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
I know this topic is more about politics and appropriation than information and knowledge. I was using wikitaxi for years now, with a downloaded wikipedia; so my wikipedia does not update itself with every edit. I have learned from it that in turkish "Chaharshanbe Suri" was called "al çarşambası". Apparently some people think that it's irrelevant or even inappropriate to add this piece of information to a "free encyclopedia". If I was to read today's article I wouldn't be able to learn "al çarşambası", I wouldn't have words in turkish to talk about "Chaharshanbe Suri". I learn a lot from wikipedia, I would really like people with goals other than sharing our knowledge to leave it to 'lovers of knowledge'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IIIIIIIII ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
May Newroz be a kind of Kurdish adaptation of Mehregan, since it doesn't share main Zoroastrian approach of Newroz-myth of Jamshid or the first movement of universe-, and if Mithraism was their worldview before Zoroastrians-Indo Iranians-had come? Parthians had done that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.12.219 ( talk) 02:47, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
It is important for this merge to take place as there are many, atleast 20 different local tribes and ethnic groups who celebrate Norouz in and out of Iran. There is no reason to have dozens of different articles as it is already obvious in the article that there are various people who celebrate it, even if they are not Iranian and even that they belong to various different religious groups, etc.
At the moment article is confusing as it may look like it is celebrated differently in Iran than outside Iran and by different people.
Currently, the Kurdish article is nothing different besides lots of pictures from demonstrations of a political rally, and those problems are already explained in this article. -- Rayis 00:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. The article on Kurdish celebration of Newroz would take a very large part of the article. Newroz is an important event for Kurds, and the way they celebrate it deserves a proper coverage - especially as Newroz celebrations among Kurds in Turkey are an important way of manifesting Kurdish cultural identity, causing wider consequences in Turkish - Kurdish relations. Bertilvidet 00:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Support - Check out Christmas, its all in one article. Also, another solution would be to have an article like Christmas worldwide. What do you guys think? Azerbaijani 01:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Support Nowruz is celebrated by Iranians, Azeris, Kurds, Tajiks, Uzbeks and Afghans and etc. There should be one article and then focus on celebration in each country. -- alidoostzadeh 01:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose I tend to be on Bertilvidet's side. It's not that the Kurdish celebration is that different and deserves another article, but that we are applying summary style and moving some details from one page to another so that it does not take away and confuse the general reader. Notice that Newroz would redirect here. -- Jeff3000 03:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose per Wikipedia:Summary style. - Francis Tyers · 14:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Navroz or Navreh in Kashmir is the original Aryan New Year. Thus belongs to Rigvedic-Zoroastrian civilizations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.203 ( talk) 17:39, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Support they are not at all different --
Pejman47
15:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Support It's the same celebration. -- Mardavich 22:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Strong Support - - this is utterly bizarre! Noruz is essentially same tradition that has been observed for thousands of years by all Iranians (Kurds, Persians, Lurs, Baluchis, etc.), as well as non-Iranians (Turks, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Azeri, Kazakh, Kyrgyz etc.), who were influenced by Iranian culture; the only difference is the pronunciation of the term which is depend on the region! If this is the case therefore, we have to create over twenty different articles here about Noruz, and call it: Khuzestani-Noruz, Luri-Nowruz, Kermani Nawruz, Yazi-Newroz, Sistani-Newruj, Esfahani-Noruz; Khorassani-Noruz and so and so forth! ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 08:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It's 6/3, and consensus is not based on vote counting in Wikipedia. Please see WP:CONSENSUS. -- Jeff3000 22:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. Yet another attack on the Kurdish content in Wikipedia. Oppose because Kurds celebrate Newroz differently and this is notable to be in the main article; Norouz but since it has a huge story behind it, it deserves a seperate article. In addition Kurdish Newroz is celebrated as an official London festival; http://www.london.gov.uk/londoner/06mar/p7b.jsp?nav=on. How can it not be notable or important enough to deserve an article. Ozgur Gerilla 22:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry but it smells chauvinism a little bit by saying that Kurds are totally unique.We Turks celebrate it the same as u do; but some people try to convert it to a some kind of challenging between different communities.(butoprak) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.226.232.10 ( talk) 00:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I just realize that substantial amount of information about the Kurdish celebration of the article has been removed from its article, see [3]. I do certainly not hope this was an attempt to prove a point in order to get the article deleted. Bertilvidet
The celebration that the Kurds currently celebrate as their new year, transliterated as Newroz, while originally having the same origin, as the Persian celebration has rightly or wrongly morphed into something that is quite different, both in it's believed source (again rightly or wrongly) and its significance to the Kurdish people. Currently the Kurds see the new year as a political movement seen to fight against the cultural repression that they believe is prevalent in Turkey [4]; it was for a long time illegal for the Kurds to celebrate the new year in Turkey [5]. Because of this the meaning of the holiday is quite different to the Kurds than other Iranian peoples; for example they look at the persecution that has happened at different new years [6]. Furthermore, the believed source of the holiday has changed and Kurds celebrate some other Kurdish legends [7] [8]. While this new source, is for the most part probably fictitious and created ( [9]) it is nevertheless a documentable belief that is significantly different that the original reason for Norouz, and thus needs to be in Wikipedia. We shouldn't take value judgements over why Kurds have created a new source for Norouz, but just document it, and also document that there are views that it is may not be true and that it was originally from the Persian. In doing so, placing all that information in this article would add too much detail for a general description of Norouz, and thus needs to instead placed in a daughter article as per summary style. Regards, -- Jeff3000 17:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose merger - just because it may be a common holiday amongst Iranian subgroups, if that's even the right label to include Kurds, doesn't rob the distinctiveness of the Kurdish cultural expression and coverage by wikipedia seems fair to me.-- Smkolins 18:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
1- There are dozens of ethnicities who celebrate this festival, many with very few traditions that make their celebration any different to what is regarded as "Norouz" that Iran celebrates as it's new year's festival
2- There are no reliable, third party sources that show Kurds, especially as an ethnic group, celebrate it different to a degree that it is necessary for it to be a seperate article. Currently, the major part of the section for Kurdish celebration is dominated by the political problems of Kurds celebrating the matter in Turkey, and only one or two sentences about how the difference in traditions of the festival.
3- I believe, as others have voted also, we can have a nice balance of information regarding the traditions of Kurdish celebrations of this festival and a short paragraph summarising the problems in Turkey (which I believe have stopped by now since Turkey celebrates it as its own spring holiday) in this article
4- This paragaph can be a very nice addition to this article but so far the focus has not been to provide reliable sources, atleast in the articles, regarding how "Kurds" celebrate this matter. Mainly, 5 million Iranian Kurds take little part in the "random collection of links" mainly referring to newspapers and pictures of political rallys in Turkey are used as sources.
I think if any effort is being put by those who oppose this merge is being put in getting votes rather than actually checking the articles and providing sources, currently the article is a mess, and before I started removing nonsense from it, it was even worse. So I really would like to suggest more effort in to the article which as it stands, half of it is regarding the politics and the other half is mainly poorly referenced and it is covered from top to bottom with pictures of a Democratic Society Party rally. Maybe then there would be a real reason for the article not to be merged in a nice summary (currently its impossible with the amount of unreferenced or poorly referenced info and all the political rally pictures). Thanks, -- Rayis 20:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Rayis but you are completely misinterpreting the discussion. The only sources given in this discussion are those that show that the Kurds celebrate it differently. None of the support statements have said anything other than "support-they are the same". The second range of sources show clearly that this is not solely a Turkish thing but a Kurdish movement, all throughout the middle east and in diasapora. Throughout the world the celebration has political and nationalistic feelings that do not exist in other celebrations. So let's go through your points one on one:
Alborz Fallah 9 March 2007
'The very same was argued last year and the conclusion is with clear intention being ignored by non relevant facts about how an ancient Iranian festival has come to attain political significance for a section of Kurds who has decided to exploit their Iranian identity in countries which oppose it
But to some again association with the same Iranian identity would not serve the greater political agenda of fabricatiing an exclusive parallel history
hence the desire to paint it all new
what exactly does it prove to bring line from an source stating that for kurds in Australia and Finland Norouz is important? what ofcourse they are an Iranian people Norouz is also important for afghanis living in Australia and Finland
Ok Barzani and PKK decided to launch some major move on Norouz! so bloody what even Khamenei the leader of the IR of Iran has to appear on TV every bloody Norouz to greet the nation because its Iran after all and Norouz is the pillar of Iranian Identity
So some western commentator grasped some shiity grain of understanding about some political struggle when he saw them during their new year gathering ......soooooooooooooooo what ????
Its like a dude from asia who has never heard of Christmas or Easter travelling to Basque or Kosovo and commenting on how he understood of these people trough their celebration Christmas
Its the same and all the more beautiful that some Kurds in turkey should choose at least once a year to engage in their Iranian identity which hurts some wiki editors who dont even know or care to know if in Tajikestan and Azarbaijan it too is a festival and that there too they incorporate fire
but distinct dogmatic editing is not even concerned???-- 129.241.91.138 13:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
With all due respect when u say
political rallies have happened?
If a political rally happens in a country which disallows Christmas or Diwali due to some goverment policy
that rally does not become part of the definition of that festival it sure may deserve mention but it is
a sporadic fact in 2500 years of celebration and evolution of the concept of that festival
if this Norouz (and its quite possible) somebody like ahmadinejad decides to launch another "statement" on Norouz to rally the citizens of IR around some motive ..then yes "sooooo what?" is the appropriate remark and it definitely does not need to the grace the article, someone may fancy a page on it since as you may put it It has happened
Iam sorry people in Kermanshah are Kurds they dont share the same anxiety, people in Ilam are kurds they also dont but hell maybe the MKO and the iranian opposition in general too uses Norouz to meet and propbably rally against the Islamic republic and they are are not even Kurds it is 20-21 st century political usage of a tradition its not a defining factor
Iranians or Iranian people all over the world be it Lor, Afghan or Mazi etc, celebrate it as their National day This transformation you refer to is a POV and it excludes Iranian Kurds to start with
Regards -- 129.241.91.138 14:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Is there a source for this sentence: "Among other ideas, Zoroastrianism is the first ever monotheistic religion that emphasizes broad concepts such as the corresponding work of good and evil in the world, and the connection of humans to nature"? And Judaism certainly emphasizes these broad concepts. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 01:15, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I think the name should be changed to Norooz as that's how most people spell it; a simple Google search will confirm it.-- RidiQLus ( talk) 01:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
The article claims that Nowruz is solely a Persian holiday. It also a very important public holiday in Azerbaijan, Georgia, Turkey, and all the Turkic nations in Central Asia (Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan). The lead section should be neutralized. Nataev ( talk) 19:45, 1 March 2013 (UTC
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/nowruz-index — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.79.143.139 ( talk) 02:34, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
New Years Days in India
Ugadi or Yugadi is celebrated as the first day of the year by people of Andhra Pradesh, Telangana and Karnataka states. On this day new Samvatsara, which is cycle of sixty years, starts. All sixty Samvatsaras are identified by unique name. The name of the year which commences on 21.03.2015 is called 'Manmadha'
Ugadi is celebrated as Gudi Padwa by the people of Maharashtra. Both Ugadi and Gudi Padwa are celebrated on the same day. The day is first day of the first fortnight in the first month, according to Luni-solar counting it is first day after no-moon day. The month is 'Chaitra' the fortnight is shukla which is first fortnight of every month. the name of the day is 'Padyami', which is the first day of the fortnight (paksh). Thus the Chaitra, shukla, Padyami is the new years day in South India. In the North India, it is counted from the Padyami which follows Full Moon Day, marking beginning of the Krishn paksh which is Second Fortnight of the month.
Ugadi is New Year according to Luni-Solar calendar. Luni-Solar calendars consider the position of the Moon and the position of the Sun to divide the year into months and days. The counter-part of Luni-Solar calendar is Solar calendar which considers only position of the Sun to divide the year into months and days. Because of that Hindu New Year is celebrated twice in the year with different names and at two different times of the year. The Hindu New Year based on Solar calendar is known as Puthandu in Tamil Nadu, Bihu in Assam, Vaisakhi in Punjab, Pana Sankranti in Orissa and Naba Barsha in West Bengal.
The day begins with ritual oil-bath followed by prayers. Oil bath and eating Neem leaves are must rituals suggested by scriptures. North Indians don’t celebrate Ugadi but start nine days Chaitra Navratri Puja on the same day and also eat Neem with Mishri on the very first day of Navratri.
Etimology
Ug-Aadi: Ug is the Age, year. Aadi is beginning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anjaneya Prasad Nimmagadda ( talk • contribs) 03:27, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
To prevend an edit war, I will suggest changing the infobox list of countries to a list of ethnic groups celebrating Nowruz. Like this [ https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Nowruz&oldid=652913623. The reason for this is that all countries in this world with a Farsi, Kurdish, Azeri or Uzbek diaspora can be added to the list, making it a very long, but also a non-representive list. The objective of the list should be, to show who celebrates Nowroz and not where. -- Ahmetyal ( talk) 20:42, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
It would be nice if someone could add some section about Nowruz celebrations in Dagestan, as it's widely celebrated there by the many ethnic groups. Orangesaft ( talk) 12:45, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Nowruz has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hi,
Nawroz is not the new your only for Iran. Nawroz is celebrated in Afghanistan for thousands of years. It is celebrated with more events than Iran. The first paragraph says that Nawroz is the new year in Iran, It should be New year in Iran, Afghanistan and few other countries. Please make the edit or we will edit it.
Thanks,
Rowinaria ( talk) 18:56, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Visiting cemeteries , to clean up the tombs and to remember the passed ancestors , (Shab - Jomyeh Akhar sal : Last Thursday night of the year )is also a tradition of Norooz in Iran : It seems to have long history and it maybe related to the ancestor's worship of ancient times ( before Zoroastrianism) -- Alborz Fallah March 9
From the article: "Nowruz dates back 15.000 years(!)" Gimme a break!
"Nowrūz" is the proper classic Persian transliteration. Although both "Nowruz" and "Norouz" are common spellings, "Nowruz" is closer to all the different pronounciations (not just the Tehrani pronounciation). Besides, many academic figures such as
Yarshater use this spelling in English texts.
Jahangard
01:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a long-standing consensus for this page to be titled Norouz. There are many other transliterations of the word, and per Wikipedia guidelines WP:NAME, the name of the article should be named the one that is most popular in English language publications, which is clearly Norouz as can be seen by a search on Google. If you have reasons to want to change the name, you should discuss it here, as per Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Steps_for_requesting_a_.28possibly.29_controversial_page_move. Regards, -- Jeff3000 04:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
It isn't the strongest majority I've ever seen, but given that this request has been repeatedly advertised and drawn out over more than two weeks, I don't think anything much could be added to it. I haven't seen much evidence of a "long-standing consensus", which only leaves Google-hits in favour of the spelling "Norouz". As pointed out above, this trend is reversed when studying only more scholarly works. This article has been renamed from Norouz to Nowruz as the result of a move request. -- Stemonitis 11:27, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The Turkish government is trying to present it as a Turkish holiday. However, Nowruz is mentioned as part of the Persian calendar by Abu Rayhan Biruni and many other historians. Not a single source from 1000 years ago mentions Nowruz as a Turkish holiday. At the time of Abu Rayhan Biruni there was no Turks in Turkey, Iran, Caucasus, Cyprus. Also the name makes it clear that Nowruz was a Kurdish/Iranic/Persian holiday passed unto Turks. So its Iranian significance in the early Islamic era and pre-Islamic era needs to be mentioned. No other culture called it Nowruz prior to this. I wrote this because up to 5 years ago, Kurds were being killed for celebrating Nowruz in Turkey. —Preceding unsigned
You are correct... there was no Anatolian or Azerbaijani Turkish ethnicites 1000 years but Biruni and Masudi mentions Nowruz as a Persian holiday more than 1000 years ago. However if other peoples and governments want to celebrate it, it will not change the fact they got from Iranian peoples. So the issue should not be political
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 02:19, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
The user who added the statement that its also a "Kurdish new year" alongside "Iranian" in the lede, is unfortunately adding blatant bogus. This "source", aka, "new article", the "International Business Times", which first of all completely and utterly fails WP:RS, also doesnt state anything about its origin or whatsoever. Furthermore, its contradictionary as well, as some sentences later it states: "Newroz is an important festival marking the arrival of spring and the Persian new year." In other words, bogus at best, and I'm afraid nothing more than an attempt to impose historical revisionism/to push in an agenda (which is disruptive per definition). Bests - LouisAragon ( talk) 09:56, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Iranian-Americans are a nascent diaspora, most of us having immigrated only in the past four decades. We are coming to our own, lifting our heads from the business grindstone and beginning to establish ourselves in other realms of diaspora influence and acceptance such as politics, philanthropy and culture. By doing so, we are promoting our beautiful arts and culture by sharing our rituals and festivals. The most uniting, revered and unanimous of these is Persian New Year or Norooz. ‘No’ means ‘new’ and ‘rooz’ means ‘day,’ perfectly apt since Persian New Year coincides literally with the Vernal Equinox, the very instance that spring season commences in the northern hemisphere. Norooz is the most enduring of all Iranian institutions: it has survived 2500 years, changes of religion and government, and the post-Islamic-Revolution exodus abroad.
The early civil society abroad took shape in the form of dance, music and language lessons and the small mom and pop shops began celebrating Norooz. As the diaspora became larger, its desire to take care of its elderly and connect its youth to its culture grew exponentially. Through many efforts, community centers began to emerge, Iranian studies were set up in universities (PARSA Community Foundation alone helped initiate or grow 12 such programs), and sizable Norooz celebrations were launched in schools and city halls, museums and parks, and most recently, the White House.
The term used for these events was Norooz and occasionally Norouz (The French had cultural influence in Iran for decades and many Iranians spell the ‘oo’ sound as ‘ou’). Iranian Alliances Across Borders, NIPOC, NIAC, Tirgan, Iran Heritage Foundation, in other words, the most prevalent organizations in the U.S. and Europe, used one of these. NIAC, the largest grassroots Iranian American organization with supporters in all 50 states, still uses the Norooz spelling. Iranian Alumni of Stanford University and the Alborz Farsi School, which celebrated annually at Quinlin Community Center, use Norooz. Payvand.com and Iranian.com, two of the most popular information sites use Norooz. The popular website 7rooz, which means seven days, uses rooz as the spelling for day. Roozonline is another popular site about human rights and political reforms. Roozvideo shows Iranian videos 24/7. Iranian Chamber of Commerce uses No-Rooz. There are books with rooz used for the word day, and so on.
A few years ago, in the search to choose one term between Norooz and Norouz, some folks introduced a third term, Nowruz. This was the spelling used in Encyclopedia Iranica, a body of work that uses transliteration, a process of translation that is not concerned with sound, phonetics, or pronunciation, rather, by a literal translations of individual letters in a word, using diacritics. This source spells Norooz as Nowruz. Wikipedia notes: “Transliteration is not concerned with representing the sounds of the original” while “conversely, transcription notes the sounds but not necessarily the spelling.” First, 'now' does not sound anything like 'no' and secondly, the macron above 'u' is not used in common daily language. Even if it were, it would indicate a long 'u' which would be read like cute, not coot. Academics have questioned Encyclopedia's decision to use transliteration methodology, however patriarchy and politeness (tarof and roo-dar-bayesti), which dominate Persian culture, have precluded them from challenging the mandate. No one can find the spelling of ‘ruz’ to represent ‘day’ anywhere except the Encyclopedia Iranica.
It was a great milestone when the United Nations, U.S. House of Representatives and U.S. Senate recognized Persian New Year, regrettably though, it was with the complicated Nowruz spelling.
Several years later, we have not seen unification, rather a division around the usage of Norooz. All of this flies in the face of the KISS principle which is so vital to picking a name and building a strong brand. Regrettably, this change only confused recognition of our nascent community, not helped it.
The explanations given for this new term have included:
Those who are academic know that they need to read the word Nowruz while imagining a line above the letter ‘u’ making it an ‘oo’ sound; The Encyclopedia Iranica knows best; We do not want to use the negative word “no” in the beginning of our New Year as it is negative; and There are people outside of Iran, in Tajikistan, Afghanistan, etc., who celebrate Norooz and hence we need to take their pronunciations into consideration. The plain facts are:
Most of the world is not academic. Also, only Iranian academia, who is already familiar with the word for Persian New Year, reads Nowruz as Norooz. Others read it as now-ruz, which can rhyme with cow-buzz. Encyclopedia Iranica is a priceless body of academic work. And yet its transliteration methodology can at times distort pronunciations of Persian words, which is not conducive to spreading one's brand; I would normally agree that starting a word with “no” can be a branding challenge and yet we’re not creating a brand new word here. We’re constrained by the original word, which, in earnest, starts with no. While we respect all the people in the world that celebrate Norooz, from Albania to India and elsewhere, we are the Iranian community of North America. The United States President and the Canadian Prime Minister - who represent 365 million people - being able to say Norooz, without training, for their New Year messages might be a good tradeoff for the local variations in Albania and India. Aiming for a universal word in vastly different local languages and dialects is impractical. As members of diaspora, we all want acceptance and influence. We want to infuse our culture and rituals in the mainstream consciousness. So why is it that we take the common names associated with our culture, like the name of our country of heritage, the name of our language and the name of our new year so haphazardly? How we self-identify matters most. Is it Iran or iRan, Persian or Farsi, Norooz or Nowruz?
If we follow smart branding principles, the right answer would probably in the following principles:
Picking a spelling that is pronounced by non-Iranians the same way that it is uttered by Iranians, without necessitating unscrambling, decrypting and guesswork; Avoiding spellings that can easily be mispronounced; and Making it memorable which means consolidating the brand instead of diffusing it. American Companies spend an average of 10.4% of their revenue budget on branding and marketing- some as high as 30%. Large companies spend billions of dollars by having focus groups and A/B testing to get just the right name and building just the right brand for drugs, cars and cosmetics. Countries hire their own branding and marketing companies to help build affinity and encourage tourism. In a recent Steve Jobs biography, it said that he picked the name Apple because it sounded “fun, spirited and not intimidating.” In 2010, the Y.M.C.A changed its name just to ‘The Y’ in order to simplify their branding to become warmer and more welcoming. I am sure you have come across other examples.
The festive Norooz season is just 8 weeks away. Literally millions of greetings will be exchanged among people, governments, nonprofits and businesses. We need to take immediate action to make 2016 Norooz as powerful and impactful as it can. This presidential year, when the Iranian diaspora is under attack and the visa waiver program threatens our free movement and prosperity of our businesses, we need to act with a sense of urgency and resolve. Here is what you can do:
Use Norooz spelling for your greetings, invitations, social media posts, etc. Use Norooz for events that you plan yourself or for which you volunteer. Request organizations you support to use the easy spelling of Norooz. Let your friends know to do the same! Thank you and Noroozetan Pirooz!! HNHousehold ( talk) 20:18, 25 March 2016 (UTC)Noosheen Hashemi
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Haft sin is not just any 7 things starting with a sin. It is 7 specific items, all starting with a sin, and each one has a special meaning! Can someone please correct this (major) issue please. Ahmad 19:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The goldfish:
I'm sorry but the bowl with a goldfish is not a persian tradition. It's more or less a modern occurence (since around 80 years)leading to abuse and death of millions of goldfish. Looking at the natural distribution of the grey carp (which was domiesticated by the chinese to the goldfish) we can see that you can not find them in the near east where Iran is placed. You can only find them living in east Asia. How could it be possible for the ancient persians to get that fish from kilometers far away just to put them on their Haft-Sin table? So the information given here is wrong. It would be nice to change that.
But in ancient persia they did have a bowl filled with fresh water! Inside that you could find a red apple or a pomgranade.
If you look at old paintings of the Haft-Sin you will see that but you will never find a goldfish on them.
Thank you!
Saman02 —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Saman02 (
talk •
contribs)
16:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
This article (published by Mehr News Agency, 12 March 2010), in Persian, argues that goldfish has no deep historical root in the Iranian Haftsin. It states that goldfish was introduced in Iran as late as some 70-80 years ago, together with tea, from China. A very relevant information in this article is that in the painting by Kamal ol-Molk, in Golestan Palace, of a Haftsin, there is no goldfish to be seen. The article further states that the colour red, now-a-days represented by goldfish, is in the Zoroastrian traditions represented by pommegranate and red apples.
It is perhaps relevant to mention that Mehr News Agency is very genuinely concerned about wildlife, state of the historical monuments, etc. They often provoke hostile comments by the officials for their unapologetic reports. Examples of their positive campaign for wildlife are this ("... living animals that die innocently"), this ("death of goldfish"), and this ("Recommendations of animal husbandry concerning buying and taking care of goldfish"). --BF 17:28, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Happy Nowruz to both of you. Baa ham digar bishtar mehrabaaan baashid, maa iroonihaa keh beh joz hammihanaanemaan kaseh digar nadaarim. I have not even read this argument. On the term KaraaMaahi in Avesta, that is just incidental resembelence with the Qara in Turkish. Here is the fish [1]. "'I invoke the Kara fish 89, who lives beneath waters in the bottom of the deep lakes". It says: "The Kar-mâhî, the Ratu or chief of the creatures that live in water". The etymology here for Kara is probably "Large, gigantic". In some NW Iranian language "Kara" (Taati of Qazvin and etc.) means large and is related to modern Persian "Kalan" (a large amount). -- Pahlavannariman ( talk) 14:45, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
It is absolutely wrong to call Nowruz only Iranian new year. Nowruz has been celebrated for the past 3000 years in many countries. Nowruz was created during Zoarastarian whose capital was current Balkh province of Afghanistan. Revision and correction is necessary. Thank You Yasin Samadzada —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.218.155.210 ( talk) 16:33, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
You should add it to page. According to one of the famous and most popular myth of Turks, Ergenekon Myth, Turks exited from Ergenekon Valley in Nevruz. Turkic people are celebrating Nevruz because of this Myth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
The source is the Ergenekon Myths itself, its a written Myth whoever can read. It's not Kurdish fest, it's Turkish fest. Kurds adapted Nevruz from Turkic people. There is no historical evidence that there is a Kurdistan an in there Newroz celebrated by Kurds! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.140.225.241 ( talk) 21:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
There is this part in the article where it states "Also all Albanians celebrate a secular version of Nowruz, called Spring Day." There are two mistakes here. 1. Albanians do not celebrate "a Spring Day", it's called the Summer Day, it's an ancient Albanian-Illyrian pagan festival with its own set of traditional local rites to be performed according to each region nationwide. 2. It's not "secular" as in some juxtaposition with Eastern religions, because its an autocthonus tradition of the old Sun Cult (the main cult of Illyrians). Any resemblances of the Summer Day festival with the Sultan Nowruz of the Bektashis, are just that, resemblances; mainly due to the fact that Albanian Bektashis have incorporated Albanian rites in their Sultan Nowruz, but they don't relate to each other. Someone should remove that sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.91.116.237 ( talk) 10:18, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Some users are adding the flag/s of the country/ies of their choice. The countries/regions that are listed there include about 18 names. What are the criteria to choose two-three countries and add their flags to the list of other 4 flagged ones? I think reasons like this in edit summary do not address the issue. Xashaiar ( talk) 04:03, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
As long as the turkeys flag isn´t among the other flags, i am satisfied. But check out this site.....why do they say that newroz is celebrated in turkey? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newroz_as_celebrated_by_Kurds // kakhajir —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.113.211.197 ( talk) 02:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
This is the verdict of one of the highest Zoroastrian institutions the world over, The Association of The Mobeds of Tehran. Specifically, they state:
نتیجه : همانگونه که از چند سال پیش به آگاهی همکیشان رسانیدیم و هر ساله می گوییم: گذاردن ماهی زنده ، درسرسفره هفت سین، به هیچ وجه ازسنت زرتشتیان و ایرانیان باستان نبوده و نمی باشد.
Translation:
"Conclusion: In accordance with the information that we have been providing to our co-religionists since a number of years, which we repeat every year, placing a living fish on the Haftsin table has never been and is not a tradition of Zoroastrians and of ancient Persians."
I conclude by reproducing part of the e-mail message that I have forwarded to Jimbo Wales in connection with the blocking of my Wikipedia account, first for 48 hours and subsequently totally unlawfully for further 2 weeks, following the dispute on this page, and some other relevant issues concerning some abusive editors:
>> Visiting the main Wikipedia entry of Nowruz, one will encounter the
>> following statement:
>>
>> "As an essential object of the Nowruz table, this goldfish is also "very
>> ancient and meaningful" and with Zoroastrian connection.[45]"
>>
>> This statement has been added by Used:Xashaiar to the entry on 16 March
>> 2010. This statement is false, and Ref.~[45] states nothing of the kind. ...
Clearly, someone should now take the trouble and remove the falsehood that User:Xhashiar has peddled on the main page, and worst of all, falsely attributed it to the Iranica article by Shahbazi, namely this one:
>> "As an essential object of the Nowruz table, this goldfish is also "very >> ancient and meaningful" and with Zoroastrian connection.[45]"
I do not do that myself, as I do not wish to have any involvement with Nowruz any longer.
--BF 06:00, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The article suggests that the Jewish holiday of Purim probably comes from the Persian New Year. This is not true. The Jewish calendar is based on the lunar cycle, and therefore runs on a completely different schedule than the regular everyday calendar. The holiday of Purim takes place on the 12th Jewish month of Adar, on the 14th day. This is based on the historical fact that, when under persian rule, the persian king and his main officer had planned to kill all the Jews in the persian empire —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.157.145.41 ( talk) 17:17, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Please, before opening a new section, look at the article and see if there are the same article. In this situation, for more information and reasons read the Purim part of this page. P. Pajouhesh ( talk) 00:37, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Along with Ismailis,[79] Alawites and Alevis, the Twelver Shi’a also hold the day of Nowruz in high regard.
This sentence should read Along with the Twelver Shia, the Ismailis, Alawites and Alevis also hold the day of Nowruz in high regard. Putting the Twelver Shia last in the list makes it seem as if they are the minority group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 05:55, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Minor nit. "patrani machchi (chicken steamed in a leaf)" should be "patrani machchi (fish steamed in a leaf)", in the "Nowruz in India" section.
71.189.190.114 ( talk) 19:24, 19 March 2012 (UTC)Dorab
The Jewish festival of Purim was NOT adopted from the Persian New Year. It is a holiday celebrating the annulment of a decree to annihilate the Jewish people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.116.169.56 ( talk) 22:36, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
is it really necessary and proportionate to have to many alternative latin spellings?? Eugene-elgato ( talk) 14:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
I know this topic is more about politics and appropriation than information and knowledge. I was using wikitaxi for years now, with a downloaded wikipedia; so my wikipedia does not update itself with every edit. I have learned from it that in turkish "Chaharshanbe Suri" was called "al çarşambası". Apparently some people think that it's irrelevant or even inappropriate to add this piece of information to a "free encyclopedia". If I was to read today's article I wouldn't be able to learn "al çarşambası", I wouldn't have words in turkish to talk about "Chaharshanbe Suri". I learn a lot from wikipedia, I would really like people with goals other than sharing our knowledge to leave it to 'lovers of knowledge'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IIIIIIIII ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
May Newroz be a kind of Kurdish adaptation of Mehregan, since it doesn't share main Zoroastrian approach of Newroz-myth of Jamshid or the first movement of universe-, and if Mithraism was their worldview before Zoroastrians-Indo Iranians-had come? Parthians had done that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.12.219 ( talk) 02:47, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
It is important for this merge to take place as there are many, atleast 20 different local tribes and ethnic groups who celebrate Norouz in and out of Iran. There is no reason to have dozens of different articles as it is already obvious in the article that there are various people who celebrate it, even if they are not Iranian and even that they belong to various different religious groups, etc.
At the moment article is confusing as it may look like it is celebrated differently in Iran than outside Iran and by different people.
Currently, the Kurdish article is nothing different besides lots of pictures from demonstrations of a political rally, and those problems are already explained in this article. -- Rayis 00:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. The article on Kurdish celebration of Newroz would take a very large part of the article. Newroz is an important event for Kurds, and the way they celebrate it deserves a proper coverage - especially as Newroz celebrations among Kurds in Turkey are an important way of manifesting Kurdish cultural identity, causing wider consequences in Turkish - Kurdish relations. Bertilvidet 00:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Support - Check out Christmas, its all in one article. Also, another solution would be to have an article like Christmas worldwide. What do you guys think? Azerbaijani 01:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Support Nowruz is celebrated by Iranians, Azeris, Kurds, Tajiks, Uzbeks and Afghans and etc. There should be one article and then focus on celebration in each country. -- alidoostzadeh 01:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose I tend to be on Bertilvidet's side. It's not that the Kurdish celebration is that different and deserves another article, but that we are applying summary style and moving some details from one page to another so that it does not take away and confuse the general reader. Notice that Newroz would redirect here. -- Jeff3000 03:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose per Wikipedia:Summary style. - Francis Tyers · 14:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Navroz or Navreh in Kashmir is the original Aryan New Year. Thus belongs to Rigvedic-Zoroastrian civilizations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.203 ( talk) 17:39, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Support they are not at all different --
Pejman47
15:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Support It's the same celebration. -- Mardavich 22:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Strong Support - - this is utterly bizarre! Noruz is essentially same tradition that has been observed for thousands of years by all Iranians (Kurds, Persians, Lurs, Baluchis, etc.), as well as non-Iranians (Turks, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Azeri, Kazakh, Kyrgyz etc.), who were influenced by Iranian culture; the only difference is the pronunciation of the term which is depend on the region! If this is the case therefore, we have to create over twenty different articles here about Noruz, and call it: Khuzestani-Noruz, Luri-Nowruz, Kermani Nawruz, Yazi-Newroz, Sistani-Newruj, Esfahani-Noruz; Khorassani-Noruz and so and so forth! ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 08:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It's 6/3, and consensus is not based on vote counting in Wikipedia. Please see WP:CONSENSUS. -- Jeff3000 22:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. Yet another attack on the Kurdish content in Wikipedia. Oppose because Kurds celebrate Newroz differently and this is notable to be in the main article; Norouz but since it has a huge story behind it, it deserves a seperate article. In addition Kurdish Newroz is celebrated as an official London festival; http://www.london.gov.uk/londoner/06mar/p7b.jsp?nav=on. How can it not be notable or important enough to deserve an article. Ozgur Gerilla 22:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry but it smells chauvinism a little bit by saying that Kurds are totally unique.We Turks celebrate it the same as u do; but some people try to convert it to a some kind of challenging between different communities.(butoprak) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.226.232.10 ( talk) 00:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I just realize that substantial amount of information about the Kurdish celebration of the article has been removed from its article, see [3]. I do certainly not hope this was an attempt to prove a point in order to get the article deleted. Bertilvidet
The celebration that the Kurds currently celebrate as their new year, transliterated as Newroz, while originally having the same origin, as the Persian celebration has rightly or wrongly morphed into something that is quite different, both in it's believed source (again rightly or wrongly) and its significance to the Kurdish people. Currently the Kurds see the new year as a political movement seen to fight against the cultural repression that they believe is prevalent in Turkey [4]; it was for a long time illegal for the Kurds to celebrate the new year in Turkey [5]. Because of this the meaning of the holiday is quite different to the Kurds than other Iranian peoples; for example they look at the persecution that has happened at different new years [6]. Furthermore, the believed source of the holiday has changed and Kurds celebrate some other Kurdish legends [7] [8]. While this new source, is for the most part probably fictitious and created ( [9]) it is nevertheless a documentable belief that is significantly different that the original reason for Norouz, and thus needs to be in Wikipedia. We shouldn't take value judgements over why Kurds have created a new source for Norouz, but just document it, and also document that there are views that it is may not be true and that it was originally from the Persian. In doing so, placing all that information in this article would add too much detail for a general description of Norouz, and thus needs to instead placed in a daughter article as per summary style. Regards, -- Jeff3000 17:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose merger - just because it may be a common holiday amongst Iranian subgroups, if that's even the right label to include Kurds, doesn't rob the distinctiveness of the Kurdish cultural expression and coverage by wikipedia seems fair to me.-- Smkolins 18:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
1- There are dozens of ethnicities who celebrate this festival, many with very few traditions that make their celebration any different to what is regarded as "Norouz" that Iran celebrates as it's new year's festival
2- There are no reliable, third party sources that show Kurds, especially as an ethnic group, celebrate it different to a degree that it is necessary for it to be a seperate article. Currently, the major part of the section for Kurdish celebration is dominated by the political problems of Kurds celebrating the matter in Turkey, and only one or two sentences about how the difference in traditions of the festival.
3- I believe, as others have voted also, we can have a nice balance of information regarding the traditions of Kurdish celebrations of this festival and a short paragraph summarising the problems in Turkey (which I believe have stopped by now since Turkey celebrates it as its own spring holiday) in this article
4- This paragaph can be a very nice addition to this article but so far the focus has not been to provide reliable sources, atleast in the articles, regarding how "Kurds" celebrate this matter. Mainly, 5 million Iranian Kurds take little part in the "random collection of links" mainly referring to newspapers and pictures of political rallys in Turkey are used as sources.
I think if any effort is being put by those who oppose this merge is being put in getting votes rather than actually checking the articles and providing sources, currently the article is a mess, and before I started removing nonsense from it, it was even worse. So I really would like to suggest more effort in to the article which as it stands, half of it is regarding the politics and the other half is mainly poorly referenced and it is covered from top to bottom with pictures of a Democratic Society Party rally. Maybe then there would be a real reason for the article not to be merged in a nice summary (currently its impossible with the amount of unreferenced or poorly referenced info and all the political rally pictures). Thanks, -- Rayis 20:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Rayis but you are completely misinterpreting the discussion. The only sources given in this discussion are those that show that the Kurds celebrate it differently. None of the support statements have said anything other than "support-they are the same". The second range of sources show clearly that this is not solely a Turkish thing but a Kurdish movement, all throughout the middle east and in diasapora. Throughout the world the celebration has political and nationalistic feelings that do not exist in other celebrations. So let's go through your points one on one:
Alborz Fallah 9 March 2007
'The very same was argued last year and the conclusion is with clear intention being ignored by non relevant facts about how an ancient Iranian festival has come to attain political significance for a section of Kurds who has decided to exploit their Iranian identity in countries which oppose it
But to some again association with the same Iranian identity would not serve the greater political agenda of fabricatiing an exclusive parallel history
hence the desire to paint it all new
what exactly does it prove to bring line from an source stating that for kurds in Australia and Finland Norouz is important? what ofcourse they are an Iranian people Norouz is also important for afghanis living in Australia and Finland
Ok Barzani and PKK decided to launch some major move on Norouz! so bloody what even Khamenei the leader of the IR of Iran has to appear on TV every bloody Norouz to greet the nation because its Iran after all and Norouz is the pillar of Iranian Identity
So some western commentator grasped some shiity grain of understanding about some political struggle when he saw them during their new year gathering ......soooooooooooooooo what ????
Its like a dude from asia who has never heard of Christmas or Easter travelling to Basque or Kosovo and commenting on how he understood of these people trough their celebration Christmas
Its the same and all the more beautiful that some Kurds in turkey should choose at least once a year to engage in their Iranian identity which hurts some wiki editors who dont even know or care to know if in Tajikestan and Azarbaijan it too is a festival and that there too they incorporate fire
but distinct dogmatic editing is not even concerned???-- 129.241.91.138 13:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
With all due respect when u say
political rallies have happened?
If a political rally happens in a country which disallows Christmas or Diwali due to some goverment policy
that rally does not become part of the definition of that festival it sure may deserve mention but it is
a sporadic fact in 2500 years of celebration and evolution of the concept of that festival
if this Norouz (and its quite possible) somebody like ahmadinejad decides to launch another "statement" on Norouz to rally the citizens of IR around some motive ..then yes "sooooo what?" is the appropriate remark and it definitely does not need to the grace the article, someone may fancy a page on it since as you may put it It has happened
Iam sorry people in Kermanshah are Kurds they dont share the same anxiety, people in Ilam are kurds they also dont but hell maybe the MKO and the iranian opposition in general too uses Norouz to meet and propbably rally against the Islamic republic and they are are not even Kurds it is 20-21 st century political usage of a tradition its not a defining factor
Iranians or Iranian people all over the world be it Lor, Afghan or Mazi etc, celebrate it as their National day This transformation you refer to is a POV and it excludes Iranian Kurds to start with
Regards -- 129.241.91.138 14:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Is there a source for this sentence: "Among other ideas, Zoroastrianism is the first ever monotheistic religion that emphasizes broad concepts such as the corresponding work of good and evil in the world, and the connection of humans to nature"? And Judaism certainly emphasizes these broad concepts. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 01:15, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I think the name should be changed to Norooz as that's how most people spell it; a simple Google search will confirm it.-- RidiQLus ( talk) 01:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
The article claims that Nowruz is solely a Persian holiday. It also a very important public holiday in Azerbaijan, Georgia, Turkey, and all the Turkic nations in Central Asia (Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan). The lead section should be neutralized. Nataev ( talk) 19:45, 1 March 2013 (UTC
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/nowruz-index — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.79.143.139 ( talk) 02:34, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
New Years Days in India
Ugadi or Yugadi is celebrated as the first day of the year by people of Andhra Pradesh, Telangana and Karnataka states. On this day new Samvatsara, which is cycle of sixty years, starts. All sixty Samvatsaras are identified by unique name. The name of the year which commences on 21.03.2015 is called 'Manmadha'
Ugadi is celebrated as Gudi Padwa by the people of Maharashtra. Both Ugadi and Gudi Padwa are celebrated on the same day. The day is first day of the first fortnight in the first month, according to Luni-solar counting it is first day after no-moon day. The month is 'Chaitra' the fortnight is shukla which is first fortnight of every month. the name of the day is 'Padyami', which is the first day of the fortnight (paksh). Thus the Chaitra, shukla, Padyami is the new years day in South India. In the North India, it is counted from the Padyami which follows Full Moon Day, marking beginning of the Krishn paksh which is Second Fortnight of the month.
Ugadi is New Year according to Luni-Solar calendar. Luni-Solar calendars consider the position of the Moon and the position of the Sun to divide the year into months and days. The counter-part of Luni-Solar calendar is Solar calendar which considers only position of the Sun to divide the year into months and days. Because of that Hindu New Year is celebrated twice in the year with different names and at two different times of the year. The Hindu New Year based on Solar calendar is known as Puthandu in Tamil Nadu, Bihu in Assam, Vaisakhi in Punjab, Pana Sankranti in Orissa and Naba Barsha in West Bengal.
The day begins with ritual oil-bath followed by prayers. Oil bath and eating Neem leaves are must rituals suggested by scriptures. North Indians don’t celebrate Ugadi but start nine days Chaitra Navratri Puja on the same day and also eat Neem with Mishri on the very first day of Navratri.
Etimology
Ug-Aadi: Ug is the Age, year. Aadi is beginning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anjaneya Prasad Nimmagadda ( talk • contribs) 03:27, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
To prevend an edit war, I will suggest changing the infobox list of countries to a list of ethnic groups celebrating Nowruz. Like this [ https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Nowruz&oldid=652913623. The reason for this is that all countries in this world with a Farsi, Kurdish, Azeri or Uzbek diaspora can be added to the list, making it a very long, but also a non-representive list. The objective of the list should be, to show who celebrates Nowroz and not where. -- Ahmetyal ( talk) 20:42, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
It would be nice if someone could add some section about Nowruz celebrations in Dagestan, as it's widely celebrated there by the many ethnic groups. Orangesaft ( talk) 12:45, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
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Hi,
Nawroz is not the new your only for Iran. Nawroz is celebrated in Afghanistan for thousands of years. It is celebrated with more events than Iran. The first paragraph says that Nawroz is the new year in Iran, It should be New year in Iran, Afghanistan and few other countries. Please make the edit or we will edit it.
Thanks,
Rowinaria ( talk) 18:56, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Visiting cemeteries , to clean up the tombs and to remember the passed ancestors , (Shab - Jomyeh Akhar sal : Last Thursday night of the year )is also a tradition of Norooz in Iran : It seems to have long history and it maybe related to the ancestor's worship of ancient times ( before Zoroastrianism) -- Alborz Fallah March 9
From the article: "Nowruz dates back 15.000 years(!)" Gimme a break!
"Nowrūz" is the proper classic Persian transliteration. Although both "Nowruz" and "Norouz" are common spellings, "Nowruz" is closer to all the different pronounciations (not just the Tehrani pronounciation). Besides, many academic figures such as
Yarshater use this spelling in English texts.
Jahangard
01:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a long-standing consensus for this page to be titled Norouz. There are many other transliterations of the word, and per Wikipedia guidelines WP:NAME, the name of the article should be named the one that is most popular in English language publications, which is clearly Norouz as can be seen by a search on Google. If you have reasons to want to change the name, you should discuss it here, as per Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Steps_for_requesting_a_.28possibly.29_controversial_page_move. Regards, -- Jeff3000 04:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
It isn't the strongest majority I've ever seen, but given that this request has been repeatedly advertised and drawn out over more than two weeks, I don't think anything much could be added to it. I haven't seen much evidence of a "long-standing consensus", which only leaves Google-hits in favour of the spelling "Norouz". As pointed out above, this trend is reversed when studying only more scholarly works. This article has been renamed from Norouz to Nowruz as the result of a move request. -- Stemonitis 11:27, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The Turkish government is trying to present it as a Turkish holiday. However, Nowruz is mentioned as part of the Persian calendar by Abu Rayhan Biruni and many other historians. Not a single source from 1000 years ago mentions Nowruz as a Turkish holiday. At the time of Abu Rayhan Biruni there was no Turks in Turkey, Iran, Caucasus, Cyprus. Also the name makes it clear that Nowruz was a Kurdish/Iranic/Persian holiday passed unto Turks. So its Iranian significance in the early Islamic era and pre-Islamic era needs to be mentioned. No other culture called it Nowruz prior to this. I wrote this because up to 5 years ago, Kurds were being killed for celebrating Nowruz in Turkey. —Preceding unsigned
You are correct... there was no Anatolian or Azerbaijani Turkish ethnicites 1000 years but Biruni and Masudi mentions Nowruz as a Persian holiday more than 1000 years ago. However if other peoples and governments want to celebrate it, it will not change the fact they got from Iranian peoples. So the issue should not be political
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 02:19, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
The user who added the statement that its also a "Kurdish new year" alongside "Iranian" in the lede, is unfortunately adding blatant bogus. This "source", aka, "new article", the "International Business Times", which first of all completely and utterly fails WP:RS, also doesnt state anything about its origin or whatsoever. Furthermore, its contradictionary as well, as some sentences later it states: "Newroz is an important festival marking the arrival of spring and the Persian new year." In other words, bogus at best, and I'm afraid nothing more than an attempt to impose historical revisionism/to push in an agenda (which is disruptive per definition). Bests - LouisAragon ( talk) 09:56, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Iranian-Americans are a nascent diaspora, most of us having immigrated only in the past four decades. We are coming to our own, lifting our heads from the business grindstone and beginning to establish ourselves in other realms of diaspora influence and acceptance such as politics, philanthropy and culture. By doing so, we are promoting our beautiful arts and culture by sharing our rituals and festivals. The most uniting, revered and unanimous of these is Persian New Year or Norooz. ‘No’ means ‘new’ and ‘rooz’ means ‘day,’ perfectly apt since Persian New Year coincides literally with the Vernal Equinox, the very instance that spring season commences in the northern hemisphere. Norooz is the most enduring of all Iranian institutions: it has survived 2500 years, changes of religion and government, and the post-Islamic-Revolution exodus abroad.
The early civil society abroad took shape in the form of dance, music and language lessons and the small mom and pop shops began celebrating Norooz. As the diaspora became larger, its desire to take care of its elderly and connect its youth to its culture grew exponentially. Through many efforts, community centers began to emerge, Iranian studies were set up in universities (PARSA Community Foundation alone helped initiate or grow 12 such programs), and sizable Norooz celebrations were launched in schools and city halls, museums and parks, and most recently, the White House.
The term used for these events was Norooz and occasionally Norouz (The French had cultural influence in Iran for decades and many Iranians spell the ‘oo’ sound as ‘ou’). Iranian Alliances Across Borders, NIPOC, NIAC, Tirgan, Iran Heritage Foundation, in other words, the most prevalent organizations in the U.S. and Europe, used one of these. NIAC, the largest grassroots Iranian American organization with supporters in all 50 states, still uses the Norooz spelling. Iranian Alumni of Stanford University and the Alborz Farsi School, which celebrated annually at Quinlin Community Center, use Norooz. Payvand.com and Iranian.com, two of the most popular information sites use Norooz. The popular website 7rooz, which means seven days, uses rooz as the spelling for day. Roozonline is another popular site about human rights and political reforms. Roozvideo shows Iranian videos 24/7. Iranian Chamber of Commerce uses No-Rooz. There are books with rooz used for the word day, and so on.
A few years ago, in the search to choose one term between Norooz and Norouz, some folks introduced a third term, Nowruz. This was the spelling used in Encyclopedia Iranica, a body of work that uses transliteration, a process of translation that is not concerned with sound, phonetics, or pronunciation, rather, by a literal translations of individual letters in a word, using diacritics. This source spells Norooz as Nowruz. Wikipedia notes: “Transliteration is not concerned with representing the sounds of the original” while “conversely, transcription notes the sounds but not necessarily the spelling.” First, 'now' does not sound anything like 'no' and secondly, the macron above 'u' is not used in common daily language. Even if it were, it would indicate a long 'u' which would be read like cute, not coot. Academics have questioned Encyclopedia's decision to use transliteration methodology, however patriarchy and politeness (tarof and roo-dar-bayesti), which dominate Persian culture, have precluded them from challenging the mandate. No one can find the spelling of ‘ruz’ to represent ‘day’ anywhere except the Encyclopedia Iranica.
It was a great milestone when the United Nations, U.S. House of Representatives and U.S. Senate recognized Persian New Year, regrettably though, it was with the complicated Nowruz spelling.
Several years later, we have not seen unification, rather a division around the usage of Norooz. All of this flies in the face of the KISS principle which is so vital to picking a name and building a strong brand. Regrettably, this change only confused recognition of our nascent community, not helped it.
The explanations given for this new term have included:
Those who are academic know that they need to read the word Nowruz while imagining a line above the letter ‘u’ making it an ‘oo’ sound; The Encyclopedia Iranica knows best; We do not want to use the negative word “no” in the beginning of our New Year as it is negative; and There are people outside of Iran, in Tajikistan, Afghanistan, etc., who celebrate Norooz and hence we need to take their pronunciations into consideration. The plain facts are:
Most of the world is not academic. Also, only Iranian academia, who is already familiar with the word for Persian New Year, reads Nowruz as Norooz. Others read it as now-ruz, which can rhyme with cow-buzz. Encyclopedia Iranica is a priceless body of academic work. And yet its transliteration methodology can at times distort pronunciations of Persian words, which is not conducive to spreading one's brand; I would normally agree that starting a word with “no” can be a branding challenge and yet we’re not creating a brand new word here. We’re constrained by the original word, which, in earnest, starts with no. While we respect all the people in the world that celebrate Norooz, from Albania to India and elsewhere, we are the Iranian community of North America. The United States President and the Canadian Prime Minister - who represent 365 million people - being able to say Norooz, without training, for their New Year messages might be a good tradeoff for the local variations in Albania and India. Aiming for a universal word in vastly different local languages and dialects is impractical. As members of diaspora, we all want acceptance and influence. We want to infuse our culture and rituals in the mainstream consciousness. So why is it that we take the common names associated with our culture, like the name of our country of heritage, the name of our language and the name of our new year so haphazardly? How we self-identify matters most. Is it Iran or iRan, Persian or Farsi, Norooz or Nowruz?
If we follow smart branding principles, the right answer would probably in the following principles:
Picking a spelling that is pronounced by non-Iranians the same way that it is uttered by Iranians, without necessitating unscrambling, decrypting and guesswork; Avoiding spellings that can easily be mispronounced; and Making it memorable which means consolidating the brand instead of diffusing it. American Companies spend an average of 10.4% of their revenue budget on branding and marketing- some as high as 30%. Large companies spend billions of dollars by having focus groups and A/B testing to get just the right name and building just the right brand for drugs, cars and cosmetics. Countries hire their own branding and marketing companies to help build affinity and encourage tourism. In a recent Steve Jobs biography, it said that he picked the name Apple because it sounded “fun, spirited and not intimidating.” In 2010, the Y.M.C.A changed its name just to ‘The Y’ in order to simplify their branding to become warmer and more welcoming. I am sure you have come across other examples.
The festive Norooz season is just 8 weeks away. Literally millions of greetings will be exchanged among people, governments, nonprofits and businesses. We need to take immediate action to make 2016 Norooz as powerful and impactful as it can. This presidential year, when the Iranian diaspora is under attack and the visa waiver program threatens our free movement and prosperity of our businesses, we need to act with a sense of urgency and resolve. Here is what you can do:
Use Norooz spelling for your greetings, invitations, social media posts, etc. Use Norooz for events that you plan yourself or for which you volunteer. Request organizations you support to use the easy spelling of Norooz. Let your friends know to do the same! Thank you and Noroozetan Pirooz!! HNHousehold ( talk) 20:18, 25 March 2016 (UTC)Noosheen Hashemi