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There are lot of unreliable sources including twitter posts. Do not remove my tag. Beshogur ( talk) 13:59, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Last Thursday, on January 9, Russia and Turkey established a ceasefire in the Idlib region according to a Russian major-general. [1] The Turkish side said that the ceasefire would actually take effect as of January the 12th. [2] For now I will close this article, it was already relatively calm the past two weeks due to bad weather conditions. We can always reopen the article or create a new one if the ceasefire does not hold. I Know I'm Not Alone ( talk) 10:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
@ EkoGraf, Takinginterest01, RopeTricks, Effrati856, Beshogur, and Edouard2: The latest advances by the Syrian Army in the southeastern countryside of Idlib deserve a new article in my opinion. It looks like a new major offensive on the city of Maarat al Numan. This article should close and i propose starting a new one. I Know I'm Not Alone ( talk) 11:10, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
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Hi I've found a source claiming that on 15/2/20 40 SDF soldiers were killed in a battle with rebel factions in the village of Ash Shaykh Aqil. - https://twitter.com/AleppoAMC/status/1228647216178507776 ThePaganUK ( talk) 20:28, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
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Remove the flag of Palestine from the infobox, the Palestinian Authority has no support to the Syrian Gov. in the offensive or the war. The ethnic Palestinians living in Syria have no connection to the "state" of Palestine. The flag is misleading, furthermore it is unreferenced. 176.88.137.160 ( talk) 11:46, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
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Add 2 Helicopters shot down under Syrian Gov casualties. In the first offensive a jet was shot down and added to casualties. [4] (see infobox). The same should be done here with the code: "2 SyAAF Mi-17's shot down" The references are not needed since they are included in the article itself. 176.88.137.160 ( talk) 11:50, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Turkey is blocking the M5 highway at Maar Hitat. The article says the M5 is fully opened and has connected Aleppo to Damascus. This is false as of yet. See, [5] [6]. I think this should be removed from the infobox. 176.88.137.160 ( talk) 07:05, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
At the moment, it would seem the offensive is over with the stated operational goals of the SAA achieved (retaking the Damascus-Aleppo highway and removing the threat of rebel shelling of Aleppo city). Since the SAA pushed back the rebels 20 kilometers west of Aleppo on February 17, no new advances or attempt at advances have been made by the Syrian military during the past five days. The only major development that took place is the rebel-Turkish attempt at recapturing Nayrab on February 20, which was repelled. During the last 24 hours, there has been talk of SAA forces building up for a totally new offensive, whose goal would be capturing the Zawiya mountain range in Idlib. I would wait at least a few more days, but if no new developments take place, or if the offensive against the Zawiya mountain is launched (and clearly stated its a new offensive) then I would suggest closing this article and opening a new one for the Zawiya operation. The end date of the "Dawn of Idlib 2" operation could be set either February 17, when the last SAA advances were made, or February 20, when the rebel counterattack against Nayrab was repelled (since that counterattack was a direct consequence of the earlier SAA capture of Nayrab). I'm leaning more towards February 20. EkoGraf ( talk) 18:51, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Oppose: It is clear that the offensive is still going on. What's the difference between the current situation and the previous situation when the front was dormant for weeks not days, yet we put that the last offensive was ongoing.-- Sakiv ( talk) 19:47, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Oppose: Oppose until some new offensive takes place. Syrian rebels could launch a counter attack with Turkish help. If SOHR, SANA or Western media stops reporting advances we could consider closing the article. Lets see Turkish reaction. Mr.User200 ( talk) 20:31, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting we close the article right this second. I was just suggesting some conditions that would need to be achieved to consider the offensive over and thus leading to the article's ending. These are: no more SAA advances or attempts at advances (last one 5 days ago); no more major rebel counterattacks (last one 2 days ago); new offensive/operation is declared/launched (one suggested to be in the preparation phase). EkoGraf ( talk) 20:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Support: I think that no matter what happens, it would count as something new. If the Turks start making gains, well that could be described as a new offensive because they weren't directly involved until now. If the SAA continue to make gains, the question of 'what objective are they going for?" would be different since they've already achieved their aims. I don't mind waiting a little, like Smeagol said, but I'm definitely siding with EkoGraf in this debate. FYI, I also personally thought the 2019 and 2020 advances should have been classified as separate (I'm just saying that so you can be aware of my possible bias on the matter). Nate Hooper ( talk) 06:51, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Support: This seems logical to me. I'd say let's wait until around the end of the month. Also, Turkey threatens to launch an operation by that time [8], i think this shouldn't be seen as a counteroffensive of this offensive but as a new operation because of the different belligerents, we should discuss that when an operation actually happens though. I Know I'm Not Alone ( talk) 11:40, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Comment: I would have supported this a day or two ago, but just today things seem to have flared up again. With that said I think the SCW community would benefit from having some kind of clear guideline as to when an offensive should be considered officially over - as it is something that has come up again and again. Goodposts ( talk) 23:57, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
I made an edit a few days ago, and I said in the edit summary that I was unsure if it was a good edit and that people should revert it if they disagreed (because I could see that it was a little cluttered and that it had too many headings). However, I've now come up with a structure which I think could actually be good, which is this:
3 December campaign 3.1 Opening advances 3.2 Further advances towards Jarjanaz 3.3 Russia–Turkey ceasefire 4 Advances along the m5 highway towards Aleppo 4.1 Post-ceasefire advances 4.2 Capture of Ma'arrat al-Nu'man 4.3 Army push towards Saraqib 4.4 Siege and capture of Saraqib 4.5 Army captures the M5 highway and continued Turkish clashes 4.6 West Aleppo assault and rebel retreat 5 Turkish counter-offensive 5.1 Battle of Nayrab
and rather than edit the article again, I thought I'd just put it on the talk page this time. So what do we all think? It shows battle phases more clearly, it's not cluttered like my last one and it will help to satisfy those who think we should be creating new articles (the names aren't too important, just the structure). Nate Hooper ( talk) 05:30, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
Hi guys, can you update the article please, thanks.
[1] @
Mr.User200,
Cengo-1992,
EkoGraf,
GWA88, and
Axxxion:.
Nabu-Kudurri-Usur Yaniv (
talk)
08:53, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
References
<ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).Turkey has announced a fourth operation in Syria this morning called "Operation Spring Shield". Various sources confirming the name: [9] [10] [11] [12] Deserves this operation its own article like Turkeys previous operations inside Syria or should it be brought under this article? ( Operation Euphrates Shield, Operation Olive Branch and Operation Peace Spring) Personally, i think it is big enough to have its own page, the belligerents are different and Turkey has it's own goals. Pinging some editors who contribute to the SCW discussions lately @ EkoGraf, RopeTricks, Goodposts, Mr.User200, and Smeagol 17:. I Know I'm Not Alone ( talk) 14:10, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
It's unknown by this point how serious the operation will be, and wether it will involve more than artillery and air support. There's a top level Russian-Turkish meeting happening soon, which will probably directly affect the outcome of this. If it does go along the lines of Euphrates Shield or Olive Branch, then I definitely think it deserves its own article. If it doesn't, I believe it would be better to keep it as a heading under the current page. I think Smeagol 17 is probably right when he says let's wait till March 5th. Goodposts ( talk) 16:17, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
Someone please make it same for all and pick either one. You POV wording is pathetic. @ Mr.User200:. Please fix this, I'm leaving you a level one warnings. 176.88.136.202 ( talk) 17:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
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The official Turkish soldiers and contractor death toll is 55 (54 soldiers and 1 contractor) according to the latest source. [1] No claim of 59 killed in total. This should be fixed 31.21.68.15 ( talk) 17:42, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
References
And thats because some people try to correct other people edits without reading the source. But Beshogur you have errased too much and in a single edit. Like Here. Talk:Northwestern Syria offensive (April–August 2019)#Orginal research and twitter sources And this have happened before. Lets errase line by line those un-sourced edits and looking for another sources, and if not, let's change the content of those text to something similar that could be backed with sources. Agree? Mr.User200 ( talk) 21:33, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
The count of Turkish drones shot down is a violation of WP:NPOV as it cites partisan sources, pro-Gov media to be specific. On the other hand the Russian and Iranian drones which are shot down per pro-Opposition media are not included. Please revert and use reliable sources when writing the # of drones shot down such as SOHR, which counts just 1. On the other hand, drones might not be included at all since they are unmanned. The casualty box only includes human and manned aircraft casualties in the rest of the Syrian infoboxes. @ EkoGraf, Mr.User200, Axxxion, and Smeagol 17:
Would like to get @ EkoGraf:s opinion regarding this. 176.88.143.228 ( talk) 20:21, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
In many other Syrian civil war-related wiki pages, the casualty box included combat drones, no rules says that combat drones casualty couldn't be included In it. As for three drones shot down by Syrian military, SANA reported them with clear photos and footages. Not only pro-government TASS and SANA, but also Daily Sabah reported these drones shot down. If you think these pictures are fake you'd better provide reliable sources that confirm pictures and footages are fake. Also, if you can provide reliable sources that confirm Syrian/Russian drones shot down you can add these loss to casualty box. 羽衣狐 ( talk) 03:35, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
I see that for the Turkish casualties only Sohr is being used as a source. Till now the Turkish defence ministery has announced the death of 53 soldiers and 1 civilian which makes it a total of 54 killed. Shouldn’t this be used as a source as well? Like adding is as ‘’per Turkey’’? For example, today the Turkish defence ministery anounced the death of 1 soldier which makes it 53 total till now. This should be added Ahhlanker ( talk) 19:55, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
@ Mr.User200: re this edit where you talk of an "unexplained revert", my explanation for the title change was in this edit, i.e. that the title is confusing as Dutch govt now calling for an NFZ. [13] I don't see that the government "no fly zone" is the main feature of the period, as it is a rhetorical reaction to the Turkish airwar. So, I would argue for a simpler title. The replacement of the text on the government "no fly zone", citing Russian sources, now duplicates the previous passage which cites mainstream news agencies so is unnecessary. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 20:17, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
I see that only the lost drones of the Turkish military (mostly just claimed by Syria/SAA) is being reported but not the drones the SAA/allies has lost? Shouldn’t their lost drones also be counted on the casualties list? And their equipment losses (air defence systems/Pantsir, tanks, armor etc..) Otherwise it doesn’t realy seem to make much sense for now Ahhlanker ( talk) 00:06, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
About the new Turkish soldier killed today. This has not yet been announced by the Turkish defence ministry (they announce the ID, number of soldiers killed etc..). They usualy anounce the deaths hours later than the locals/governors. The first report of the killed soldier today was done by the governor of Gaziantep. So it could be that there are more killed as the defence ministry will release information soon. However if the MoD for example anounces soon that 1 or 2 soldiers are killed, that means that that includes the killed soldier reported today by the governor (which has been added today on the list). So then the death toll would remain at 57 or increase to 58 (if its 2 soldier killed) Ahhlanker ( talk) 16:44, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
References
No, I think that you are confused about that. Today in the morning one soldier was reportedly killed according to the Gaziantep governor. After that the igdir governor anounced an soldier KIA as well in Idlib. Now the defence ministery has made the official anouncement stating that 2 soldiers were killed. The MoD alos released the ID’s of the soldiers which is the same as the source you used for the soldier KIA this morning. That makes the total death 58 (altough officialy 57) Ahhlanker ( talk) 19:21, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
I just read your source from Reuters but its not true. Till now its 57 soldiers and 1 civilian. The MoD always anounces the deaths of its soldiers later than the regional governors. So Reuters most likely counted them both in the total death toll of soldiers (58+2 new KIA soldiers) Ahhlanker ( talk) 19:26, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
@ EkoGraf: A ceasefire does not mean the immediate end of an offensive including this one. In the last offensive, there was a lot of cease-fires, but you didn't put an end to the offensive until the fighting stopped for a month. Why now, just a day later, do you want to end this offensive? Is it because my opinion is different? I would kindly like you to stick to what we've reached in the talk and not make unilateral actions. I ask you to wait three or four days to see what happens, especially since militant groups are not parties to the agreement.-- Sakiv ( talk) 18:31, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
References
Sorry for intervening, but I agree the idea that we shouldn't judge by ourselves to talk about the end of the offensive. As I saw the progress of editing, some people think that offensive is just end by ceasefire. Well, I cannot agree because SAA broke the deal many times, so we don't know what will happen. It is a calm-down phase, not an ultimate-end phase. We should wait for government official or SAA official sources that declare the offensive has ended. Before that, we shouldn't decide that offensive has ended. 웬디러비 ( talk) 16:00, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
I've made a map of the ceasefire in Southern Idlib. Since I'm not active on Wikipedia I cannot edit protected articles. Would someone be so kind to add the map in this article? File is Map of Idlib Ceasefire (March 2020).png. Much appreciated and many thanks! Cvekartis ( talk) 21:52, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
@Mr.user200 it seems that you remove edits that you just dont like. First of all, you funnily tell that the Turkish ministery of defence is unreliable, while it is an official branch of goverment reporting those numbers. SOHR is not an official source and it isn’t recognized by either the Syrian regime or the rebels. SOHR has a marginal amount of “activists” on the ground in Syria and gets their casualty information mostly from loyalist and rebel facebook pages. Frankly the majority of casualities reported in this conflict find their origins in those Facebook pages. The Syrian regime hasn’t really reported their casualty figures in this battle and neither has the rebels. It is also funny how you remove a Forbes article and try to counter it with a Russian source. Secondly, you reject a source that reported that 47 Shia fighters died, but keep sources which clearly mention that according to local social media sources 100+ Turkish soldiers died. Needbrains ( talk) 11:02, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
Turkey spread the second fake with the destruction of the "Shell-S" in Syria. Video [16] Regarding those Pakistani dead they come Facebook (allegedly) buy i have not find the original FB of that group. Even if I find it thats not a RS indeed. The SOHR that we use in most of the page indicates 37 killed pro syrian goverment militias dead. Thats 21 from Shite Pakistan/Afghan Hezbollah and 15 from Hezbollah. And that info is from 5 March. The FB entry is from March 1. This means SOHR is the latest number. If we consider the 47 (Not 50) dead we should in turn consider the 65 dead from the Baylun strike , or even the latter localy reported 100 killed. Because since now we will be using ranges of casualties. If the Syrian Army or Rebels dont publish their losses, that means that we have to use a single source and the only we have at hand with the same methodology (SOHR). And SOHR have proven many time in this campaing to know the Turkish losses with incredible accuramcy. When Baylun attacks took place the reported outright 34 dead. Something the Turkish MoD recognized 4 days after and updating the tally from 9 to 22 the 29 and finally 33. Regarding goverment losses i dont have a clue how the report them. But considering that SOHR and the opposition during a part of the war were just the same team, the rebels death is the closest thing we have to a official number. Mr.User200 ( talk) 13:16, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
References
I feel like a saw that the 6th brigade of the 4th corps was supposed to hold Saraqib until it was temporarily lost but I can only find a sketchy source mentioning the 4th corps (southfront). Anyone know if they took part?
Isn't this page under the WP:1RR rule? (See WP:GS/SCW) People seem to be reverting the same things repeatedly. If you need to revert a second time, you should take it to Talk and get a consensus. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 14:46, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Why has the 2 su-24’s that were shotdown removed from the casualties box? Maskalaeuba ( talk) 23:56, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
The drone found in Saraqib is a TB2 as clearly shown in the photographs also is made clear the Internal number of the drone. No other drone of that type have been lost before in this offensive. And the sources says it was shot down in February at West Saraqib. The other 4 Turkish drones lost are 2 Anka-S and two Bayrakar Tactival with their proper photos on their wrecks and internal numbers. All drones lost have photograpic evidence from independent media or state media. This is for the record. Mr.User200 ( talk) 13:17, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
References
SOHR reported this on 12 March [17] that Maarat Muqqas and al Burayj were recaptured on 12 March without any resistance, after having lost it a few days ago. Until now they haven't been reported to wihdra from the two villages again. Egypttoday has also reported SOHR's report [18]. 117.199.80.15 ( talk) 06:20, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
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Turkish MoD announces deaths of two Turkish soldiers and another being injured in rocket attacks on 19 March by radical groups. [19] Add it please, because I believe it will be important enough. 117.199.89.187 ( talk) 08:38, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Only one Su-24 was lost, second returned to base
http://www.skywar.ru/syria2020.html -
citation "1 марта 2020 года, в 13:25, боевая потеря самолета Су-24МК 696-й аэ 70-й бригады ВВС Сирии. Экипаж в составе летчика п-ка Хоссам Салеха и штурмана п/п-ка Хальдуна Хуссейна Мубарака ведомым в составе пары участвовал в нанесении удара по позициям войск противника в районе Идлиб. В р-не севернее н.п. Мааррет-эн-Нууман самолет был поражен ракетой, загорелся в воздухе и частями упал на землю. Экипаж катапультировался над расположением своих сил и был доставлен в госпиталь. Причиной потери предположительно стала атака турецкого истребителя F-16. Второй сирийский самолет был так же атакован, но получил лишь незначительные повреждения и сумел вернуться на базу." 37.144.229.95 ( talk) 13:05, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
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There are lot of unreliable sources including twitter posts. Do not remove my tag. Beshogur ( talk) 13:59, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Last Thursday, on January 9, Russia and Turkey established a ceasefire in the Idlib region according to a Russian major-general. [1] The Turkish side said that the ceasefire would actually take effect as of January the 12th. [2] For now I will close this article, it was already relatively calm the past two weeks due to bad weather conditions. We can always reopen the article or create a new one if the ceasefire does not hold. I Know I'm Not Alone ( talk) 10:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
@ EkoGraf, Takinginterest01, RopeTricks, Effrati856, Beshogur, and Edouard2: The latest advances by the Syrian Army in the southeastern countryside of Idlib deserve a new article in my opinion. It looks like a new major offensive on the city of Maarat al Numan. This article should close and i propose starting a new one. I Know I'm Not Alone ( talk) 11:10, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
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Hi I've found a source claiming that on 15/2/20 40 SDF soldiers were killed in a battle with rebel factions in the village of Ash Shaykh Aqil. - https://twitter.com/AleppoAMC/status/1228647216178507776 ThePaganUK ( talk) 20:28, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
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Remove the flag of Palestine from the infobox, the Palestinian Authority has no support to the Syrian Gov. in the offensive or the war. The ethnic Palestinians living in Syria have no connection to the "state" of Palestine. The flag is misleading, furthermore it is unreferenced. 176.88.137.160 ( talk) 11:46, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
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Add 2 Helicopters shot down under Syrian Gov casualties. In the first offensive a jet was shot down and added to casualties. [4] (see infobox). The same should be done here with the code: "2 SyAAF Mi-17's shot down" The references are not needed since they are included in the article itself. 176.88.137.160 ( talk) 11:50, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Turkey is blocking the M5 highway at Maar Hitat. The article says the M5 is fully opened and has connected Aleppo to Damascus. This is false as of yet. See, [5] [6]. I think this should be removed from the infobox. 176.88.137.160 ( talk) 07:05, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
At the moment, it would seem the offensive is over with the stated operational goals of the SAA achieved (retaking the Damascus-Aleppo highway and removing the threat of rebel shelling of Aleppo city). Since the SAA pushed back the rebels 20 kilometers west of Aleppo on February 17, no new advances or attempt at advances have been made by the Syrian military during the past five days. The only major development that took place is the rebel-Turkish attempt at recapturing Nayrab on February 20, which was repelled. During the last 24 hours, there has been talk of SAA forces building up for a totally new offensive, whose goal would be capturing the Zawiya mountain range in Idlib. I would wait at least a few more days, but if no new developments take place, or if the offensive against the Zawiya mountain is launched (and clearly stated its a new offensive) then I would suggest closing this article and opening a new one for the Zawiya operation. The end date of the "Dawn of Idlib 2" operation could be set either February 17, when the last SAA advances were made, or February 20, when the rebel counterattack against Nayrab was repelled (since that counterattack was a direct consequence of the earlier SAA capture of Nayrab). I'm leaning more towards February 20. EkoGraf ( talk) 18:51, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Oppose: It is clear that the offensive is still going on. What's the difference between the current situation and the previous situation when the front was dormant for weeks not days, yet we put that the last offensive was ongoing.-- Sakiv ( talk) 19:47, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Oppose: Oppose until some new offensive takes place. Syrian rebels could launch a counter attack with Turkish help. If SOHR, SANA or Western media stops reporting advances we could consider closing the article. Lets see Turkish reaction. Mr.User200 ( talk) 20:31, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting we close the article right this second. I was just suggesting some conditions that would need to be achieved to consider the offensive over and thus leading to the article's ending. These are: no more SAA advances or attempts at advances (last one 5 days ago); no more major rebel counterattacks (last one 2 days ago); new offensive/operation is declared/launched (one suggested to be in the preparation phase). EkoGraf ( talk) 20:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Support: I think that no matter what happens, it would count as something new. If the Turks start making gains, well that could be described as a new offensive because they weren't directly involved until now. If the SAA continue to make gains, the question of 'what objective are they going for?" would be different since they've already achieved their aims. I don't mind waiting a little, like Smeagol said, but I'm definitely siding with EkoGraf in this debate. FYI, I also personally thought the 2019 and 2020 advances should have been classified as separate (I'm just saying that so you can be aware of my possible bias on the matter). Nate Hooper ( talk) 06:51, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Support: This seems logical to me. I'd say let's wait until around the end of the month. Also, Turkey threatens to launch an operation by that time [8], i think this shouldn't be seen as a counteroffensive of this offensive but as a new operation because of the different belligerents, we should discuss that when an operation actually happens though. I Know I'm Not Alone ( talk) 11:40, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Comment: I would have supported this a day or two ago, but just today things seem to have flared up again. With that said I think the SCW community would benefit from having some kind of clear guideline as to when an offensive should be considered officially over - as it is something that has come up again and again. Goodposts ( talk) 23:57, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
I made an edit a few days ago, and I said in the edit summary that I was unsure if it was a good edit and that people should revert it if they disagreed (because I could see that it was a little cluttered and that it had too many headings). However, I've now come up with a structure which I think could actually be good, which is this:
3 December campaign 3.1 Opening advances 3.2 Further advances towards Jarjanaz 3.3 Russia–Turkey ceasefire 4 Advances along the m5 highway towards Aleppo 4.1 Post-ceasefire advances 4.2 Capture of Ma'arrat al-Nu'man 4.3 Army push towards Saraqib 4.4 Siege and capture of Saraqib 4.5 Army captures the M5 highway and continued Turkish clashes 4.6 West Aleppo assault and rebel retreat 5 Turkish counter-offensive 5.1 Battle of Nayrab
and rather than edit the article again, I thought I'd just put it on the talk page this time. So what do we all think? It shows battle phases more clearly, it's not cluttered like my last one and it will help to satisfy those who think we should be creating new articles (the names aren't too important, just the structure). Nate Hooper ( talk) 05:30, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
Hi guys, can you update the article please, thanks.
[1] @
Mr.User200,
Cengo-1992,
EkoGraf,
GWA88, and
Axxxion:.
Nabu-Kudurri-Usur Yaniv (
talk)
08:53, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
References
<ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).Turkey has announced a fourth operation in Syria this morning called "Operation Spring Shield". Various sources confirming the name: [9] [10] [11] [12] Deserves this operation its own article like Turkeys previous operations inside Syria or should it be brought under this article? ( Operation Euphrates Shield, Operation Olive Branch and Operation Peace Spring) Personally, i think it is big enough to have its own page, the belligerents are different and Turkey has it's own goals. Pinging some editors who contribute to the SCW discussions lately @ EkoGraf, RopeTricks, Goodposts, Mr.User200, and Smeagol 17:. I Know I'm Not Alone ( talk) 14:10, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
It's unknown by this point how serious the operation will be, and wether it will involve more than artillery and air support. There's a top level Russian-Turkish meeting happening soon, which will probably directly affect the outcome of this. If it does go along the lines of Euphrates Shield or Olive Branch, then I definitely think it deserves its own article. If it doesn't, I believe it would be better to keep it as a heading under the current page. I think Smeagol 17 is probably right when he says let's wait till March 5th. Goodposts ( talk) 16:17, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
Someone please make it same for all and pick either one. You POV wording is pathetic. @ Mr.User200:. Please fix this, I'm leaving you a level one warnings. 176.88.136.202 ( talk) 17:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
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The official Turkish soldiers and contractor death toll is 55 (54 soldiers and 1 contractor) according to the latest source. [1] No claim of 59 killed in total. This should be fixed 31.21.68.15 ( talk) 17:42, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
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And thats because some people try to correct other people edits without reading the source. But Beshogur you have errased too much and in a single edit. Like Here. Talk:Northwestern Syria offensive (April–August 2019)#Orginal research and twitter sources And this have happened before. Lets errase line by line those un-sourced edits and looking for another sources, and if not, let's change the content of those text to something similar that could be backed with sources. Agree? Mr.User200 ( talk) 21:33, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
The count of Turkish drones shot down is a violation of WP:NPOV as it cites partisan sources, pro-Gov media to be specific. On the other hand the Russian and Iranian drones which are shot down per pro-Opposition media are not included. Please revert and use reliable sources when writing the # of drones shot down such as SOHR, which counts just 1. On the other hand, drones might not be included at all since they are unmanned. The casualty box only includes human and manned aircraft casualties in the rest of the Syrian infoboxes. @ EkoGraf, Mr.User200, Axxxion, and Smeagol 17:
Would like to get @ EkoGraf:s opinion regarding this. 176.88.143.228 ( talk) 20:21, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
In many other Syrian civil war-related wiki pages, the casualty box included combat drones, no rules says that combat drones casualty couldn't be included In it. As for three drones shot down by Syrian military, SANA reported them with clear photos and footages. Not only pro-government TASS and SANA, but also Daily Sabah reported these drones shot down. If you think these pictures are fake you'd better provide reliable sources that confirm pictures and footages are fake. Also, if you can provide reliable sources that confirm Syrian/Russian drones shot down you can add these loss to casualty box. 羽衣狐 ( talk) 03:35, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
I see that for the Turkish casualties only Sohr is being used as a source. Till now the Turkish defence ministery has announced the death of 53 soldiers and 1 civilian which makes it a total of 54 killed. Shouldn’t this be used as a source as well? Like adding is as ‘’per Turkey’’? For example, today the Turkish defence ministery anounced the death of 1 soldier which makes it 53 total till now. This should be added Ahhlanker ( talk) 19:55, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
@ Mr.User200: re this edit where you talk of an "unexplained revert", my explanation for the title change was in this edit, i.e. that the title is confusing as Dutch govt now calling for an NFZ. [13] I don't see that the government "no fly zone" is the main feature of the period, as it is a rhetorical reaction to the Turkish airwar. So, I would argue for a simpler title. The replacement of the text on the government "no fly zone", citing Russian sources, now duplicates the previous passage which cites mainstream news agencies so is unnecessary. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 20:17, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
I see that only the lost drones of the Turkish military (mostly just claimed by Syria/SAA) is being reported but not the drones the SAA/allies has lost? Shouldn’t their lost drones also be counted on the casualties list? And their equipment losses (air defence systems/Pantsir, tanks, armor etc..) Otherwise it doesn’t realy seem to make much sense for now Ahhlanker ( talk) 00:06, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
About the new Turkish soldier killed today. This has not yet been announced by the Turkish defence ministry (they announce the ID, number of soldiers killed etc..). They usualy anounce the deaths hours later than the locals/governors. The first report of the killed soldier today was done by the governor of Gaziantep. So it could be that there are more killed as the defence ministry will release information soon. However if the MoD for example anounces soon that 1 or 2 soldiers are killed, that means that that includes the killed soldier reported today by the governor (which has been added today on the list). So then the death toll would remain at 57 or increase to 58 (if its 2 soldier killed) Ahhlanker ( talk) 16:44, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
References
No, I think that you are confused about that. Today in the morning one soldier was reportedly killed according to the Gaziantep governor. After that the igdir governor anounced an soldier KIA as well in Idlib. Now the defence ministery has made the official anouncement stating that 2 soldiers were killed. The MoD alos released the ID’s of the soldiers which is the same as the source you used for the soldier KIA this morning. That makes the total death 58 (altough officialy 57) Ahhlanker ( talk) 19:21, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
I just read your source from Reuters but its not true. Till now its 57 soldiers and 1 civilian. The MoD always anounces the deaths of its soldiers later than the regional governors. So Reuters most likely counted them both in the total death toll of soldiers (58+2 new KIA soldiers) Ahhlanker ( talk) 19:26, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
@ EkoGraf: A ceasefire does not mean the immediate end of an offensive including this one. In the last offensive, there was a lot of cease-fires, but you didn't put an end to the offensive until the fighting stopped for a month. Why now, just a day later, do you want to end this offensive? Is it because my opinion is different? I would kindly like you to stick to what we've reached in the talk and not make unilateral actions. I ask you to wait three or four days to see what happens, especially since militant groups are not parties to the agreement.-- Sakiv ( talk) 18:31, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
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Sorry for intervening, but I agree the idea that we shouldn't judge by ourselves to talk about the end of the offensive. As I saw the progress of editing, some people think that offensive is just end by ceasefire. Well, I cannot agree because SAA broke the deal many times, so we don't know what will happen. It is a calm-down phase, not an ultimate-end phase. We should wait for government official or SAA official sources that declare the offensive has ended. Before that, we shouldn't decide that offensive has ended. 웬디러비 ( talk) 16:00, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
I've made a map of the ceasefire in Southern Idlib. Since I'm not active on Wikipedia I cannot edit protected articles. Would someone be so kind to add the map in this article? File is Map of Idlib Ceasefire (March 2020).png. Much appreciated and many thanks! Cvekartis ( talk) 21:52, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
@Mr.user200 it seems that you remove edits that you just dont like. First of all, you funnily tell that the Turkish ministery of defence is unreliable, while it is an official branch of goverment reporting those numbers. SOHR is not an official source and it isn’t recognized by either the Syrian regime or the rebels. SOHR has a marginal amount of “activists” on the ground in Syria and gets their casualty information mostly from loyalist and rebel facebook pages. Frankly the majority of casualities reported in this conflict find their origins in those Facebook pages. The Syrian regime hasn’t really reported their casualty figures in this battle and neither has the rebels. It is also funny how you remove a Forbes article and try to counter it with a Russian source. Secondly, you reject a source that reported that 47 Shia fighters died, but keep sources which clearly mention that according to local social media sources 100+ Turkish soldiers died. Needbrains ( talk) 11:02, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
Turkey spread the second fake with the destruction of the "Shell-S" in Syria. Video [16] Regarding those Pakistani dead they come Facebook (allegedly) buy i have not find the original FB of that group. Even if I find it thats not a RS indeed. The SOHR that we use in most of the page indicates 37 killed pro syrian goverment militias dead. Thats 21 from Shite Pakistan/Afghan Hezbollah and 15 from Hezbollah. And that info is from 5 March. The FB entry is from March 1. This means SOHR is the latest number. If we consider the 47 (Not 50) dead we should in turn consider the 65 dead from the Baylun strike , or even the latter localy reported 100 killed. Because since now we will be using ranges of casualties. If the Syrian Army or Rebels dont publish their losses, that means that we have to use a single source and the only we have at hand with the same methodology (SOHR). And SOHR have proven many time in this campaing to know the Turkish losses with incredible accuramcy. When Baylun attacks took place the reported outright 34 dead. Something the Turkish MoD recognized 4 days after and updating the tally from 9 to 22 the 29 and finally 33. Regarding goverment losses i dont have a clue how the report them. But considering that SOHR and the opposition during a part of the war were just the same team, the rebels death is the closest thing we have to a official number. Mr.User200 ( talk) 13:16, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
References
I feel like a saw that the 6th brigade of the 4th corps was supposed to hold Saraqib until it was temporarily lost but I can only find a sketchy source mentioning the 4th corps (southfront). Anyone know if they took part?
Isn't this page under the WP:1RR rule? (See WP:GS/SCW) People seem to be reverting the same things repeatedly. If you need to revert a second time, you should take it to Talk and get a consensus. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 14:46, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Why has the 2 su-24’s that were shotdown removed from the casualties box? Maskalaeuba ( talk) 23:56, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
The drone found in Saraqib is a TB2 as clearly shown in the photographs also is made clear the Internal number of the drone. No other drone of that type have been lost before in this offensive. And the sources says it was shot down in February at West Saraqib. The other 4 Turkish drones lost are 2 Anka-S and two Bayrakar Tactival with their proper photos on their wrecks and internal numbers. All drones lost have photograpic evidence from independent media or state media. This is for the record. Mr.User200 ( talk) 13:17, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
References
SOHR reported this on 12 March [17] that Maarat Muqqas and al Burayj were recaptured on 12 March without any resistance, after having lost it a few days ago. Until now they haven't been reported to wihdra from the two villages again. Egypttoday has also reported SOHR's report [18]. 117.199.80.15 ( talk) 06:20, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
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Turkish MoD announces deaths of two Turkish soldiers and another being injured in rocket attacks on 19 March by radical groups. [19] Add it please, because I believe it will be important enough. 117.199.89.187 ( talk) 08:38, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Only one Su-24 was lost, second returned to base
http://www.skywar.ru/syria2020.html -
citation "1 марта 2020 года, в 13:25, боевая потеря самолета Су-24МК 696-й аэ 70-й бригады ВВС Сирии. Экипаж в составе летчика п-ка Хоссам Салеха и штурмана п/п-ка Хальдуна Хуссейна Мубарака ведомым в составе пары участвовал в нанесении удара по позициям войск противника в районе Идлиб. В р-не севернее н.п. Мааррет-эн-Нууман самолет был поражен ракетой, загорелся в воздухе и частями упал на землю. Экипаж катапультировался над расположением своих сил и был доставлен в госпиталь. Причиной потери предположительно стала атака турецкого истребителя F-16. Второй сирийский самолет был так же атакован, но получил лишь незначительные повреждения и сумел вернуться на базу." 37.144.229.95 ( talk) 13:05, 26 April 2020 (UTC)