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It seems that some people are almost pushing an agenda to have these states included in the northeast. What's the big deal? I'm sorry, but Virginia, including Washington D.C., and West Virginia are certainly not part of the northeast. Ohio is certainly a mid-western state. Parts of Maryland could *MAYBE* be considered northeastern, but I would suggest that Maryland is also not part of the northeast. The Census Bureau definition is valid: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Xfatmoe ( talk) 17:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Megapolitan areas are not "abstract ideas" but rather very concrete analyses of the movement of goods and people within a given area. Even more to the point, if you've lived in and traveled around the Northeast Megalopolis you would know that there are no clear lines where one metro ends and another begins. Trying to separate Baltimore and DC from Philadelphia and NYC is more ludicrous than trying to say that San Diego and LA are in different regions. In any case, I'm not sure what bearing a cultural survey taken 250 years ago (mason-dixon) to delineate attitudes toward slavery has to do with the present day economic and cultural realities. It was done well before the fall of slavery, before the industrial revolution, before the advent of high-speed rail, automobiles and the interstate highway system. Likewise, what does it matter what the Census says about it? The FBI and EPA say something different. The also think that the Virgin Islands are part of the Northeast. Western PA and Western NY have far more in common, culturally and economically, with Ohio and with each other than they do with NYC or Philadelphia. Delaware is clearly part of the Northeast. People there watch TV broadcast from Philadelphia, listen to a lot of radio from Philadelphia, have commuter trains to Philadelphia and New Castle County, where most Delawareans live, is part of the Philadelphia MSA. Metro Baltimore and metro DC, where most Marylanders live, is inextricably linked to the rest of the mid-atlantic. Anyone who has driven on I-95 or taken Amtrak or Megabus or Boltbus or any of the Chinatown buses is acutely aware of this. Even for the best of ears, trying to distinguish a South Jersey accent from a Maryland accent can be impossible. Ancient maps and ideas are just that. The flow of goods and people is what matters and by any measure DE and MD are linked to the northeast much more than to the southeast. While one can make persuasive arguments that parts of Western MD and the Eastern Shore are more culturally southern one can also make persuasive arguments that Northern Virginia counties such as Arlington, Fairfax, Loudon, etc are more culturally mid-atlantic. ` 69.142.76.165 ( talk) 20:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC) JRes
Mattlach ( talk) 19:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I am a CT native and not a transplant with propaganda for Wikipedia. The northeast has always been known around here to include everything from Maine to D.C. - never excluding Deleware and almost always including Maryland, although many joke that MD is the south. PA we have a hard time calling the NE or at least the east coast. Most of PA seems more related to the mid-west. In CT, we do not even consider ourselves as bing in New England. We prefer to use northeast while New England states prefer New England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.187 ( talk) 16:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
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Maryland is definitely a part of the Northeast. I'm getting sick of the Mason-Dixon line being the end all say all on the division between the two regions. The line was made in the 1700's and was more about a boundary dispute between MD and PA! How is that relative or useful to todays society? Baltimore and Philadelphia are always linked together as very similar cities - and I agree with above - Philly, Baltimore, and S. Jersey dialects are almost identical. If you want to make this article about the census designation, then fine, but take Delaware off the map too. I'm sorry the Eastern Shore of MD has farms, but this doesn't make Maryland a southern state. The culture/geography of the Eastern shore is very tightly similar to rural DE and NJ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.22.116 ( talk) 18:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
There was never an argument being made for the region of South Jersey to be likened to Maryland's Eastern shore. The term "South Jersey" was specifically NOT used as it encompasses far too large of an area and diversity in culture. When people think South Jersey, they think Philly suburbs and Atlantic City - that is not what I was referencing. The term "rural Jersey" was the intended message. I grew up in St. Micheals and have found that driving down towards Cape May in Jersey is very similar to a trip down Route 50 through Talbot and Dorcester counties - farmlands, marshlands, simple, laid back, and some similar coastal towns. Obviously, nothing compares directly to Chesapeake culture - it's highly unique and precious and I would never pin it as either southern or northern - it is what it is. I agree with you that at first glance the remark "The eastern shore of Maryland is like South Jersey" is a little ridiculous - please remember that was never my argument. However, if I wanted to make that argument, it wouldn't be too difficult - in addition to everything I've already said, Cecil County is a part of the Philadelphia Metropolitan Statistical area, suburb of Philly, as are parts of south Jersey that border on rural areas much like those of the Eastern shore - you'd be surprised how similar Elkton is to other S. Jersey towns, not to mention the South Jersey Shore being just like the stretch from Ocean City, MD up through Rehoboth and Bethany - not a fantastic argument, and I probably wouldn't make it, but it could be done. (You didn't bring this up, but for the record, the argument that Delaware and Maryland's Eastern shore are not similar simply cannot be made, Delmarva is Delmarva - obviously less populated as you get down into the Virginia part, but still pretty consistent.) I apologize if I offended you, there is pretty much nothing that can be like the old waterman towns like Tilghman's Island or Deal Island or the dissapearing marshlands of Dorchester county. Places like Cambridge, Oxford, St. Michael's, even up in Chestertown are uniquely Maryland/Chesapeake and I never meant to take away from that. I simply meant to propose the question of why certain things like farmlands and low population density have to be indicative of a southern state when undeniably northern states less than 30 miles away have those things as well.
Alright, I see your point and thank you for allowing me to clarify what I had said before. To clear up one more thing, I wasn't saying that YOU had said the rural aspect of Maryland's ES and low population density was why you thought it was southern - I was discussing my original reason for posting, and that is that A LOT of people go around saying "Maryland's Eastern Shore is southern because of how agricultural it is, etc." I don't enjoy that comment at all, it just sounds uneducated and ignorant. Again, I know that wasn't anything you had said. Also, I must say that I was not surprised when I saw you had written that most people on the Eastern Shore don't consider Cecil County a part of it - :-) I had anticipated that argument, and I kind of have to agree! hah! But it was worth a shot! It is definitely true that Maryland holds a lot in common with Virginia because of the Chesapeake. I am aware that that tie goes all the way back to Colonial times. Maryland and Virginia both were labeled Southern Colonies, but a special distinction for them was made as Chesapeake Colonies simply because it altered our economies dramatically from that of the north or the south, and I also agree with you that even today, we still have much in common with Virginia for this reason. There is no way to actually settle this debate simply because it hasn't been done for 200 years and it's not about to happen via wikipedia chat. In all honesty, I'm strongly in favor of the mid-atlantic label before anything else. I just don't like to be excluded from the Northeast simply because people let the Eastern Shore represent us. And vice versa, I'm sure the ES doesn't like to be excluded from the Southeast simply because people let Baltimore represent the state. My supporting arguments for Maryland being the Northeast do not lie within the ES being a Northeastern region - I only wanted to say that it shouldn't be the reason why we're excluded because plenty of Northeastern States have their equivalents of "Eastern Shores", or things and cultures that are southern. I disagree with you by saying that nobody claims south central PA as southern, because people most certainly do. Given it is usually rednecks, but I've seen it - the confederate flag flying high and everything - no one ever argues it though because Pennsylvania has never been up for debate. I lived in South Carolina for four years and I must say, THAT is southern in ways that neither Maryland or Virginia are. I also discovered that that part of the south (NC down), doesn't really want us. I've found that a lot of southerners are beginning to disown Virginia as well. However, the same argument goes in reverse - once you begin to get up to the New York area, no one there will claim Maryland as part of the North. I suppose in Maryland, if you're a yankee or a southerner is your own personal choice - you can make an argument for yourself either way. I'm very proud of Maryland's diversity and our dispositions. I've read before that a large consensus in Maryland during the civil war was that they didn't like the South seceding, but also didn't like the North's attitude towards the South. Talk about level-headed and well thought out. I just don't think it's fair to ignore Maryland's ties with the Northeast simply because it also has ties with parts of the South, and I suppose vice versa. I apologize that this wasn't as organized and thought out as well as my previous post. Anyway, I appreciate the discussion and the opportunity to redeem myself and not appear completely insane! Any Marylander is a friend of mine. :-)
Me too, man, me too! I just got a new fishing boat that I'm fixing up and I can't wait to get out there. I'm also ready for some crab feasts. And I agree, this was a great conversation. I really like hearing opinions from other Marylanders that actually care about this topic and have researched it. I really am tired of hearing, "Maryland is the south because we're below the mason-dixon line". That immediately tells me that person knows one simple rule-of-thumb history fact and they haven't cared to research it beyond that. Same with, "Maryland is the north because we stayed with the Union." Those remarks aren't what someone thinks, it's just what they've been told and I have no interest in it. Anyway, just out of curiosity - what town are you from and what is your dialect? I spent a lot of time in St. Michael's growing up and other Eastern Shore places (my Dad and I used to take trips all over there and go fishing), but I actually lived most of my life in Anne Arundel County, south of Bmore and north of Annapolis. To say the least, I'm fluent in Baltimorese, which most of the time I'm proud of and other times, well, not so proud of - hah! The other part of Maryland we haven't discussed at all is Western. I know it's a whole other monster, one of which I know least about, but from what I've gathered they embody the Appalachian culture and Garrett and Alleghany counties have a pretty strong affinity towards Pittsburgh - seeing as how it's only 90 some miles away in some places. Thoughts? And yeah, we do have the best of both worlds, the greatest state in the nation - easily.
Honestly, I'm thrilled that D.C. is so close and accessible - you know how that is, it's really cool and is an awesome place to take guests that are visiting. However, I DO NOT like what it is doing to the area and the culture. When I'm away on a trip for whatever reason - I will sometimes, by chance, meet a stranger from Maryland and inquire as to what part they are from. If they reply with "Bethesda" or "Greenbelt" or "Rockville", etc. - I usually say, "No, no, no, - you're from D.C. - that's not Maryland." It's just not. And it's unfortunate because D.C.'s sprawl and growth is having a bigger and bigger effect every year on the surrounding area. I'm very worried about Anne Arundel county becoming much like PG and MoCo. Baltimore really needs to pull itself together in the next decade here or else that city will fall into shadow underneath D.C., much like Wilmington, DE did under Philly. If there isn't an influence to counteract D.C.'s growth, then the entire western shore of Maryland will eventually be one giant suburb of D.C. I know Virginians feel the same way about Alexandria/Arlington - the growth is out of control. And yes, I know exactly what you mean by the, not only long, but frontal/nasal "O"! :-) In my experience, I've heard that nasal "O" sound all the way from the Norfolk/Chesapeake area of VA up to Philly and some of south Jersey - William Labov at UPenn actually attributed it to what he calls a part of the "mid atlantic dialect". How appropriate :-). You commute all the way from Dorchester to Annapolis each day? Please tell me you do it by boat - hah! To those who claim that Pittsburgh has far more in common with the Midwest than the rest of the Northeast, I must respectfully disagree. Many studies including this one from Gastil put Pittsburgh in the same cultural region as South Jersey http://faculty.smu.edu/RKEMPER/anth_3346/ANTH3346_Maps.htm#GASTIL%20NORTHEASTERN%20CULTURAL%20REGIONS. Additionally, the prevalence of row housing in Pittsburgh is a staple of the older coastal cities, including Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore and DC. The very large percentage of Italians (about 16% in the CSA), Catholics and lack of Evangelicals in Pittsburgh, in addition to traditional connections to Philadelphia (e.g. PA canal, Steagles, Pirates-Phillies and Pens-Flyers rivalry) again offer significant evidence that Pittsburgh is more Northeastern. Concerning language issues, most who have studied the Pittsburgh accent recognize that it is more in common with "Highland Southern" accent of W. VA. and other areas of Appalachia than with Midwest (as though either the Midwest or Northeast is a homogeneous region in that respect is absurd). Yet, certain words such as "hoagie" are commonly used in Pittsburgh, Phila. and NJ, but rarely in other parts of the country. Anyone who thinks Pittsburgh is clearly Midwestern should provide actual examples of this and not merely state opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.249.116 ( talk) 01:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC) |
I think that the biggest example of Pittsburgh being mid-western is - it is practically next to Ohio! It is no where near the east. People on the east do not consider it the east either. Why are the Browns and the Steelers rivals? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.187 ( talk) 16:54, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
This article is full of unsourced assertion, opinion, and peacock language. I propose that this article should focus on the census bureau definition (so that statistics can be validated), possibly with some reference to nearby areas that some claim are part of the region (if sourced). Then we can cut down all of the opinion and leave only the statistics and facts that are sourced. Editors can add new sections when they have the RSs to support them. Anybody have thoughts on this? Hoppingalong ( talk) 15:51, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Other states are sometimes included in the definition of Northeastern United States. The International Nuclear Safety Center included on a map of nuclear reactors in the Northeastern United States those reactors that are located in Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Ohio, Michigan, and Ontario, Canada.[6] The National Assessment Synthesis Team of the U.S. Global Change Research Program included West Virginia and Maryland in the Northeastern United States in its analysis of climate change in a 2001 report.[7] The same report included Virginia in the Southeastern United States.[8] In a 1961 book, French geographer Jean Gottman described what he called the Northeast megalopolis to include as far south as Washington, D.C. within the megalopolis, though he did not define the Northeastern United States.[9] The Census Bureau classifies Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia, as part of the South Atlantic region,[1] part of the Southern United States.
Non-consensus? Seriously? Your decisions to chop out all the disputed states from the article had [WP:DRNC|equally no consensus]]. As I stated in an edit summary, Wikipedia should be a neutral source of information and should explain the disputed point at which the northeast becomes the south, not just make the Census Bureau the end-all, be-all authority over the article. Different government agencies can't even come to a consensus on where the northeast ends!
If you revert an edit because I need to "discuss first" before editing and can't give a specific reason as to why you reverted, you might be unintentionally owning the article. …Grayshi talk ■ my contribs 17:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Maryland and Delaware can easily be argued to be a part of the Northeast as well as easily argued to be a part of the Southeast. So explain this to me...
1. Maryland and Delaware are NOT included on the Northeastern United States page.
2. Maryland and Delaware are NOT included on the Southeastern United States page.
However, the "East Coast of the United States" page includes MD and DE 100% and so does the "Northeast megalopolis" page.
NOW, the "Southern United States" page HALF includes MD and DE because they are both, in someway, a part of the southeast - so the what's the problem here on this page? Why are MD and DE not at least HALF included?
Currently, according to Wikipedia articles, MD and DE are NOT Northeastern or Southeastern, but 1/2 "Southern" and 1/2 nothing else. Fix it. The content of this article does not reflect the given title. Either you change the content to include MD and DE in SOMEWAY as they are both in SOMEWAY a part of the Northeast, or you change the title to "Northeastern United States Census Region". This shouldn't even be a discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldlinestate ( talk • contribs) 09:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
If you would take the time to realize there is such a thing as "Mid-Atlantic" on Wikipedia, you will see that both Maryland and Delaware are considered the epicenter of this region in that article. Maryland and Delaware are NOT officially part of the historical Mid-Atlantic, but it has been the consensus recently because in modern times they fit that definition, in part, culturally. There is no way they can be considered Northeastern, when in reality they are not even technically part of the Mid-Atlantic, but of the Southeast. Some people have a hard time saying New Jersey is in the Northeast, but just in the Mid-Atlantic. The majority of Americans think of New England and New York when the term "Northeast" is mentioned. This article does not need to be changed. —Preceding
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96.244.92.60 (
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16:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I fail to see why this article was changed when it was fine for over a year. Despite a very small minority of naysayers saying otherwise, Maryland and Delaware are economically, politically, culturally, and demographically part of the Northeast. The Census Bureau's own data (on wealth, education, density, etc.) confirms it. Most other govt. agencies such as the Library of Congress, FBI, and Department of Energy, as well as private organizations, group them (and DC) in the Northeast. There are clearly some Southern ties, but about 99% of them point to either states [i]history[/i] rather than their present. Last year Maryland changed it's region in the Council of State Goverments from South to [North]East. Maybe if this article was titled "the U.S. NE in 1800" DE and MD probably couldn't even be mentioned, but this is a modern day definition. The way I, and most others, see it is that the Northeast consists of two seperate regions: New England (ME, CT, RI, MA, NH, VT) and the Mid-Atlantic (DC, DE, MD, PA, NY, NJ). The only debatable state is WV since it is dominated by a unique Appalachian culture. 007bond ( talk) 00:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Worth inclusion? Mapsax ( talk) 06:32, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
This edit, despite the editor's claim otherwise, is WP:SYNTH. A statement like this needs a source that says as much, not a list of sources that "prove" the synthesized point. And the map that was reinserted is in direct contradiction to the caption and is not sourced. I will revert accordingly. Please discuss similar future additions here first or use an appropriate dispute resolution mechanism. Hoppingalong ( talk) 23:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
If you're unwilling to compromise and actually collaborate instead of reverting and quoting policies in bad faith, I'll go ahead and request an RFC. …Grayshi talk ■ my contribs 01:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I have happened upon this page in the past couple years.
Delaware is obviously the most controversial state when arguing North vs. South.
If you consider states, you must consider the purpose of states, or colonies. It is apparent to anyone that a state, or colony exists due to the extent in which people exist and govern said state or colony. Although Delaware may align with Maryland for the most part, geographically, the living human beings in Delaware are majority located in New Castle County, the northernmost of Pennsylvania's lower three counties.
When people bring up slavery, you must consider what amount, or percentage of blacks were in slavery at the time of the emancipation proclamation. Any research will undercover that Delaware had a minute amount or percentage of these, despite bordering the confederate state of Maryland.
In colonial times, it is without doubt that Delaware was considered a middle colony.
Unfortunately, the U.S. Census makes brash considerations as to where it must draw the line between north and south. Obviously, it has made a mistake in the 2000 Census.
This does not mean we have to perpetuate this misinterpretration on Wikipedia. Those who argue Delaware southern are usually New Englanders. If you speak geographically, north and south split down Virginia's southern border.
Correct the map as it should be corrected. At the very least, Delaware should be shaded.
Feel free to argue your points.
Although —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.203.164 ( talk) 02:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Also, honestly, when people were setting up the regions for the Census I REALLY doubt they sat around and said "Hey, lets set it up so that the regions are representative of the cultures in the US." That didn't happen. They just did it probably without much rhyme or reason.
Secondly, yeah maybe some New Englanders will say we're a part of the south, but not nearly as many as how many Deep Southerners will venomously denounce our inclusion. Besides, I've heard even Bostonians before say MD and DE are NO WAY the South. I suppose this isn't very substantial or concrete evidence - so take it from the locals - Maryland, born and raised, not an ounce of southern about me. Moved to West Chester, PA and know New Castle County, DE very well - NOT southern...at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.30.197 ( talk) 17:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I am from CT and some may call it New England (only people from New England and other areas, not natives of CT!) but we do not use that title as we only deal with our NY/NJ/CT Tri-state area. While we see Boston and New England as it's own region (which it is), we include them as the northeast all the way down to D.C. There have never been any doubts about DE being in the NE along with MD and DC. PA is the only state in question from our perspective as it is not on the east coast and most of it is near the mid-west. We do call Philly an eastern city however.
I know how you guys feel you are in YOUR state telling the world where YOU are, but people who do no even live in your state want to tell you who you should be. I keep having a battle with a guy on here who hates for me to take New England out of all things CT but he goes in and puts New England in all things CT when I come with proof after proof that CT is a part of metro NYC and we do not call ourselves "New Englanders" and we consider the state to the east and north as New England, which does not include us. Now that CT has been removed from a New England tourism site, that should help my cause. I get tired of people (outsiders, lying and saying they are from where we are) trying to force us into something that we are not a part of. When I went to Philly, they ave the PA,NJ,DE Tri-state area. That says it all Slavery has nothing to do with a state being in the northeast or not! The biggest northern slave port was in RI!
Someone mentioned accents. Here in CT, we do not have the Boston accent (because we are not near them or that area), but some (they) like to tie us in with them because they are lonely out there with no other major city near-by. We are 10 minutes away from NYC - Boston is hours away. Some people like to bring up the HISTORY of DE or MD to include them in the south. That was history and most of their history was not the south. They like to say historically CT is New England, but that was HISTORY. Geography AND history shows that it was always NY as well. These articles are always written with agendas instead of the facts which is why I hate this site because it reads like propaganda instead of reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.187 ( talk) 17:22, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
I reverted Grayshi's insertion of several states as falling within various entities' definitions of Northeastern United States. The insertion violated WP:UNDUE (as did the examples discussed on this talk page above in relation to similar insertions in July) because it elevates the characterization of random agencies above others without any third party sourcing to establish that the agency's opinion is worth inclusion (the U.S. Energy Information Administration Natural Gas Pipeline System? Wisconsin?). This just highlights how the term "Northeastern United States" doesn't have much of a meaning at all. The only agency that has defined the "region" and received third party coverage of the characterization is the Census Bureau. It is not perfect, but it is supportable with sources other than primary sources which run into WP:UNDUE problem if strictly summarized only or WP:SYNTH problems as they did in the paste. Hoppingalong ( talk) 00:47, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
People might argue with that analysis, but I would argue that it doesn't matter anyway. Whether you or I think a region is properly a region, or that it is properly drawn if such a region is appropriate, is irrelevant. All that matters is the coverage it gets. I agree that the region as the CB defines it is barely notable, if it indeed is (Britannica, for instance, does not have an article covering the Northeastern or Northeast U.S.). But certainly other definitions are even less so. As I have said, I'm not sure "Northeastern United States" really means all that much. The focus on the CB definition along with the mention that there are other definitions seems to get the weight about right as per WP:UNDUE. FWIW, I think the "history" section should be re-titled (maybe to "Composition") and limited with main wikilinks to the actual regions (New England and Mid-Atlantic). This will help the rampant OR, point people to articles that are more likely to give them what they are looking for, and make this article a much shorter (which seems right to me, compared to other, real regions) super disambiguation page, sort of. Hoppingalong ( talk) 22:57, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
With these linked edits, I removed most of the uncited geography/climate material. It was flagged since June 2010, was entirely uncited and essay-like (or even apparent OR in some cases), was unclear as to which definition of Northeastern United States it was based on, and was not written in an encyclopedic tone. I also reordered the remaining sections to put the Northeast Megalopolis paragraph closer to the demographic information (which also has source problems, but there must be sources to be had on it). On a more minor note, I removed the see also links because they are linked already in the footers and it seemed disproportionate for them to be also linked as see alsos. Hoppingalong ( talk) 01:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I moved this article to Northeastern United States (U.S. Census Bureau) from Northeastern United States in an effort for clarity and to avoid the regular fights about which definition of this "region" should apply. If other version s of the region are notable, they can get their own article and Northeastern United States can disambiguate. The Census Bureau regional definitions are the most widely used, as noted in the article. But there are so many other definitions, I thought adding the Census Bureau would add clarity. Because of the number of other definitions, and because nobody has put forward any sources that indicate the region is somehow inherently cohesive, I think this is the best way to handle it. Though there are no other NE U.S. articles yet, there could be. Though the Census Bureau is the most widely used, that does not necessarily mean it should not have a qualifier in the title as per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Hoppingalong ( talk) 01:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
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I added the population under the demographics section, it seemed weird that it was missing. Red Hair Bow ( talk) 00:22, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
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It seems that some people are almost pushing an agenda to have these states included in the northeast. What's the big deal? I'm sorry, but Virginia, including Washington D.C., and West Virginia are certainly not part of the northeast. Ohio is certainly a mid-western state. Parts of Maryland could *MAYBE* be considered northeastern, but I would suggest that Maryland is also not part of the northeast. The Census Bureau definition is valid: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Xfatmoe ( talk) 17:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Megapolitan areas are not "abstract ideas" but rather very concrete analyses of the movement of goods and people within a given area. Even more to the point, if you've lived in and traveled around the Northeast Megalopolis you would know that there are no clear lines where one metro ends and another begins. Trying to separate Baltimore and DC from Philadelphia and NYC is more ludicrous than trying to say that San Diego and LA are in different regions. In any case, I'm not sure what bearing a cultural survey taken 250 years ago (mason-dixon) to delineate attitudes toward slavery has to do with the present day economic and cultural realities. It was done well before the fall of slavery, before the industrial revolution, before the advent of high-speed rail, automobiles and the interstate highway system. Likewise, what does it matter what the Census says about it? The FBI and EPA say something different. The also think that the Virgin Islands are part of the Northeast. Western PA and Western NY have far more in common, culturally and economically, with Ohio and with each other than they do with NYC or Philadelphia. Delaware is clearly part of the Northeast. People there watch TV broadcast from Philadelphia, listen to a lot of radio from Philadelphia, have commuter trains to Philadelphia and New Castle County, where most Delawareans live, is part of the Philadelphia MSA. Metro Baltimore and metro DC, where most Marylanders live, is inextricably linked to the rest of the mid-atlantic. Anyone who has driven on I-95 or taken Amtrak or Megabus or Boltbus or any of the Chinatown buses is acutely aware of this. Even for the best of ears, trying to distinguish a South Jersey accent from a Maryland accent can be impossible. Ancient maps and ideas are just that. The flow of goods and people is what matters and by any measure DE and MD are linked to the northeast much more than to the southeast. While one can make persuasive arguments that parts of Western MD and the Eastern Shore are more culturally southern one can also make persuasive arguments that Northern Virginia counties such as Arlington, Fairfax, Loudon, etc are more culturally mid-atlantic. ` 69.142.76.165 ( talk) 20:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC) JRes
Mattlach ( talk) 19:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I am a CT native and not a transplant with propaganda for Wikipedia. The northeast has always been known around here to include everything from Maine to D.C. - never excluding Deleware and almost always including Maryland, although many joke that MD is the south. PA we have a hard time calling the NE or at least the east coast. Most of PA seems more related to the mid-west. In CT, we do not even consider ourselves as bing in New England. We prefer to use northeast while New England states prefer New England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.187 ( talk) 16:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
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Maryland is definitely a part of the Northeast. I'm getting sick of the Mason-Dixon line being the end all say all on the division between the two regions. The line was made in the 1700's and was more about a boundary dispute between MD and PA! How is that relative or useful to todays society? Baltimore and Philadelphia are always linked together as very similar cities - and I agree with above - Philly, Baltimore, and S. Jersey dialects are almost identical. If you want to make this article about the census designation, then fine, but take Delaware off the map too. I'm sorry the Eastern Shore of MD has farms, but this doesn't make Maryland a southern state. The culture/geography of the Eastern shore is very tightly similar to rural DE and NJ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.22.116 ( talk) 18:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
There was never an argument being made for the region of South Jersey to be likened to Maryland's Eastern shore. The term "South Jersey" was specifically NOT used as it encompasses far too large of an area and diversity in culture. When people think South Jersey, they think Philly suburbs and Atlantic City - that is not what I was referencing. The term "rural Jersey" was the intended message. I grew up in St. Micheals and have found that driving down towards Cape May in Jersey is very similar to a trip down Route 50 through Talbot and Dorcester counties - farmlands, marshlands, simple, laid back, and some similar coastal towns. Obviously, nothing compares directly to Chesapeake culture - it's highly unique and precious and I would never pin it as either southern or northern - it is what it is. I agree with you that at first glance the remark "The eastern shore of Maryland is like South Jersey" is a little ridiculous - please remember that was never my argument. However, if I wanted to make that argument, it wouldn't be too difficult - in addition to everything I've already said, Cecil County is a part of the Philadelphia Metropolitan Statistical area, suburb of Philly, as are parts of south Jersey that border on rural areas much like those of the Eastern shore - you'd be surprised how similar Elkton is to other S. Jersey towns, not to mention the South Jersey Shore being just like the stretch from Ocean City, MD up through Rehoboth and Bethany - not a fantastic argument, and I probably wouldn't make it, but it could be done. (You didn't bring this up, but for the record, the argument that Delaware and Maryland's Eastern shore are not similar simply cannot be made, Delmarva is Delmarva - obviously less populated as you get down into the Virginia part, but still pretty consistent.) I apologize if I offended you, there is pretty much nothing that can be like the old waterman towns like Tilghman's Island or Deal Island or the dissapearing marshlands of Dorchester county. Places like Cambridge, Oxford, St. Michael's, even up in Chestertown are uniquely Maryland/Chesapeake and I never meant to take away from that. I simply meant to propose the question of why certain things like farmlands and low population density have to be indicative of a southern state when undeniably northern states less than 30 miles away have those things as well.
Alright, I see your point and thank you for allowing me to clarify what I had said before. To clear up one more thing, I wasn't saying that YOU had said the rural aspect of Maryland's ES and low population density was why you thought it was southern - I was discussing my original reason for posting, and that is that A LOT of people go around saying "Maryland's Eastern Shore is southern because of how agricultural it is, etc." I don't enjoy that comment at all, it just sounds uneducated and ignorant. Again, I know that wasn't anything you had said. Also, I must say that I was not surprised when I saw you had written that most people on the Eastern Shore don't consider Cecil County a part of it - :-) I had anticipated that argument, and I kind of have to agree! hah! But it was worth a shot! It is definitely true that Maryland holds a lot in common with Virginia because of the Chesapeake. I am aware that that tie goes all the way back to Colonial times. Maryland and Virginia both were labeled Southern Colonies, but a special distinction for them was made as Chesapeake Colonies simply because it altered our economies dramatically from that of the north or the south, and I also agree with you that even today, we still have much in common with Virginia for this reason. There is no way to actually settle this debate simply because it hasn't been done for 200 years and it's not about to happen via wikipedia chat. In all honesty, I'm strongly in favor of the mid-atlantic label before anything else. I just don't like to be excluded from the Northeast simply because people let the Eastern Shore represent us. And vice versa, I'm sure the ES doesn't like to be excluded from the Southeast simply because people let Baltimore represent the state. My supporting arguments for Maryland being the Northeast do not lie within the ES being a Northeastern region - I only wanted to say that it shouldn't be the reason why we're excluded because plenty of Northeastern States have their equivalents of "Eastern Shores", or things and cultures that are southern. I disagree with you by saying that nobody claims south central PA as southern, because people most certainly do. Given it is usually rednecks, but I've seen it - the confederate flag flying high and everything - no one ever argues it though because Pennsylvania has never been up for debate. I lived in South Carolina for four years and I must say, THAT is southern in ways that neither Maryland or Virginia are. I also discovered that that part of the south (NC down), doesn't really want us. I've found that a lot of southerners are beginning to disown Virginia as well. However, the same argument goes in reverse - once you begin to get up to the New York area, no one there will claim Maryland as part of the North. I suppose in Maryland, if you're a yankee or a southerner is your own personal choice - you can make an argument for yourself either way. I'm very proud of Maryland's diversity and our dispositions. I've read before that a large consensus in Maryland during the civil war was that they didn't like the South seceding, but also didn't like the North's attitude towards the South. Talk about level-headed and well thought out. I just don't think it's fair to ignore Maryland's ties with the Northeast simply because it also has ties with parts of the South, and I suppose vice versa. I apologize that this wasn't as organized and thought out as well as my previous post. Anyway, I appreciate the discussion and the opportunity to redeem myself and not appear completely insane! Any Marylander is a friend of mine. :-)
Me too, man, me too! I just got a new fishing boat that I'm fixing up and I can't wait to get out there. I'm also ready for some crab feasts. And I agree, this was a great conversation. I really like hearing opinions from other Marylanders that actually care about this topic and have researched it. I really am tired of hearing, "Maryland is the south because we're below the mason-dixon line". That immediately tells me that person knows one simple rule-of-thumb history fact and they haven't cared to research it beyond that. Same with, "Maryland is the north because we stayed with the Union." Those remarks aren't what someone thinks, it's just what they've been told and I have no interest in it. Anyway, just out of curiosity - what town are you from and what is your dialect? I spent a lot of time in St. Michael's growing up and other Eastern Shore places (my Dad and I used to take trips all over there and go fishing), but I actually lived most of my life in Anne Arundel County, south of Bmore and north of Annapolis. To say the least, I'm fluent in Baltimorese, which most of the time I'm proud of and other times, well, not so proud of - hah! The other part of Maryland we haven't discussed at all is Western. I know it's a whole other monster, one of which I know least about, but from what I've gathered they embody the Appalachian culture and Garrett and Alleghany counties have a pretty strong affinity towards Pittsburgh - seeing as how it's only 90 some miles away in some places. Thoughts? And yeah, we do have the best of both worlds, the greatest state in the nation - easily.
Honestly, I'm thrilled that D.C. is so close and accessible - you know how that is, it's really cool and is an awesome place to take guests that are visiting. However, I DO NOT like what it is doing to the area and the culture. When I'm away on a trip for whatever reason - I will sometimes, by chance, meet a stranger from Maryland and inquire as to what part they are from. If they reply with "Bethesda" or "Greenbelt" or "Rockville", etc. - I usually say, "No, no, no, - you're from D.C. - that's not Maryland." It's just not. And it's unfortunate because D.C.'s sprawl and growth is having a bigger and bigger effect every year on the surrounding area. I'm very worried about Anne Arundel county becoming much like PG and MoCo. Baltimore really needs to pull itself together in the next decade here or else that city will fall into shadow underneath D.C., much like Wilmington, DE did under Philly. If there isn't an influence to counteract D.C.'s growth, then the entire western shore of Maryland will eventually be one giant suburb of D.C. I know Virginians feel the same way about Alexandria/Arlington - the growth is out of control. And yes, I know exactly what you mean by the, not only long, but frontal/nasal "O"! :-) In my experience, I've heard that nasal "O" sound all the way from the Norfolk/Chesapeake area of VA up to Philly and some of south Jersey - William Labov at UPenn actually attributed it to what he calls a part of the "mid atlantic dialect". How appropriate :-). You commute all the way from Dorchester to Annapolis each day? Please tell me you do it by boat - hah! To those who claim that Pittsburgh has far more in common with the Midwest than the rest of the Northeast, I must respectfully disagree. Many studies including this one from Gastil put Pittsburgh in the same cultural region as South Jersey http://faculty.smu.edu/RKEMPER/anth_3346/ANTH3346_Maps.htm#GASTIL%20NORTHEASTERN%20CULTURAL%20REGIONS. Additionally, the prevalence of row housing in Pittsburgh is a staple of the older coastal cities, including Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore and DC. The very large percentage of Italians (about 16% in the CSA), Catholics and lack of Evangelicals in Pittsburgh, in addition to traditional connections to Philadelphia (e.g. PA canal, Steagles, Pirates-Phillies and Pens-Flyers rivalry) again offer significant evidence that Pittsburgh is more Northeastern. Concerning language issues, most who have studied the Pittsburgh accent recognize that it is more in common with "Highland Southern" accent of W. VA. and other areas of Appalachia than with Midwest (as though either the Midwest or Northeast is a homogeneous region in that respect is absurd). Yet, certain words such as "hoagie" are commonly used in Pittsburgh, Phila. and NJ, but rarely in other parts of the country. Anyone who thinks Pittsburgh is clearly Midwestern should provide actual examples of this and not merely state opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.249.116 ( talk) 01:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC) |
I think that the biggest example of Pittsburgh being mid-western is - it is practically next to Ohio! It is no where near the east. People on the east do not consider it the east either. Why are the Browns and the Steelers rivals? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.187 ( talk) 16:54, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
This article is full of unsourced assertion, opinion, and peacock language. I propose that this article should focus on the census bureau definition (so that statistics can be validated), possibly with some reference to nearby areas that some claim are part of the region (if sourced). Then we can cut down all of the opinion and leave only the statistics and facts that are sourced. Editors can add new sections when they have the RSs to support them. Anybody have thoughts on this? Hoppingalong ( talk) 15:51, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Other states are sometimes included in the definition of Northeastern United States. The International Nuclear Safety Center included on a map of nuclear reactors in the Northeastern United States those reactors that are located in Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Ohio, Michigan, and Ontario, Canada.[6] The National Assessment Synthesis Team of the U.S. Global Change Research Program included West Virginia and Maryland in the Northeastern United States in its analysis of climate change in a 2001 report.[7] The same report included Virginia in the Southeastern United States.[8] In a 1961 book, French geographer Jean Gottman described what he called the Northeast megalopolis to include as far south as Washington, D.C. within the megalopolis, though he did not define the Northeastern United States.[9] The Census Bureau classifies Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia, as part of the South Atlantic region,[1] part of the Southern United States.
Non-consensus? Seriously? Your decisions to chop out all the disputed states from the article had [WP:DRNC|equally no consensus]]. As I stated in an edit summary, Wikipedia should be a neutral source of information and should explain the disputed point at which the northeast becomes the south, not just make the Census Bureau the end-all, be-all authority over the article. Different government agencies can't even come to a consensus on where the northeast ends!
If you revert an edit because I need to "discuss first" before editing and can't give a specific reason as to why you reverted, you might be unintentionally owning the article. …Grayshi talk ■ my contribs 17:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Maryland and Delaware can easily be argued to be a part of the Northeast as well as easily argued to be a part of the Southeast. So explain this to me...
1. Maryland and Delaware are NOT included on the Northeastern United States page.
2. Maryland and Delaware are NOT included on the Southeastern United States page.
However, the "East Coast of the United States" page includes MD and DE 100% and so does the "Northeast megalopolis" page.
NOW, the "Southern United States" page HALF includes MD and DE because they are both, in someway, a part of the southeast - so the what's the problem here on this page? Why are MD and DE not at least HALF included?
Currently, according to Wikipedia articles, MD and DE are NOT Northeastern or Southeastern, but 1/2 "Southern" and 1/2 nothing else. Fix it. The content of this article does not reflect the given title. Either you change the content to include MD and DE in SOMEWAY as they are both in SOMEWAY a part of the Northeast, or you change the title to "Northeastern United States Census Region". This shouldn't even be a discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldlinestate ( talk • contribs) 09:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
If you would take the time to realize there is such a thing as "Mid-Atlantic" on Wikipedia, you will see that both Maryland and Delaware are considered the epicenter of this region in that article. Maryland and Delaware are NOT officially part of the historical Mid-Atlantic, but it has been the consensus recently because in modern times they fit that definition, in part, culturally. There is no way they can be considered Northeastern, when in reality they are not even technically part of the Mid-Atlantic, but of the Southeast. Some people have a hard time saying New Jersey is in the Northeast, but just in the Mid-Atlantic. The majority of Americans think of New England and New York when the term "Northeast" is mentioned. This article does not need to be changed. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
96.244.92.60 (
talk)
16:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I fail to see why this article was changed when it was fine for over a year. Despite a very small minority of naysayers saying otherwise, Maryland and Delaware are economically, politically, culturally, and demographically part of the Northeast. The Census Bureau's own data (on wealth, education, density, etc.) confirms it. Most other govt. agencies such as the Library of Congress, FBI, and Department of Energy, as well as private organizations, group them (and DC) in the Northeast. There are clearly some Southern ties, but about 99% of them point to either states [i]history[/i] rather than their present. Last year Maryland changed it's region in the Council of State Goverments from South to [North]East. Maybe if this article was titled "the U.S. NE in 1800" DE and MD probably couldn't even be mentioned, but this is a modern day definition. The way I, and most others, see it is that the Northeast consists of two seperate regions: New England (ME, CT, RI, MA, NH, VT) and the Mid-Atlantic (DC, DE, MD, PA, NY, NJ). The only debatable state is WV since it is dominated by a unique Appalachian culture. 007bond ( talk) 00:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Worth inclusion? Mapsax ( talk) 06:32, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
This edit, despite the editor's claim otherwise, is WP:SYNTH. A statement like this needs a source that says as much, not a list of sources that "prove" the synthesized point. And the map that was reinserted is in direct contradiction to the caption and is not sourced. I will revert accordingly. Please discuss similar future additions here first or use an appropriate dispute resolution mechanism. Hoppingalong ( talk) 23:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
If you're unwilling to compromise and actually collaborate instead of reverting and quoting policies in bad faith, I'll go ahead and request an RFC. …Grayshi talk ■ my contribs 01:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I have happened upon this page in the past couple years.
Delaware is obviously the most controversial state when arguing North vs. South.
If you consider states, you must consider the purpose of states, or colonies. It is apparent to anyone that a state, or colony exists due to the extent in which people exist and govern said state or colony. Although Delaware may align with Maryland for the most part, geographically, the living human beings in Delaware are majority located in New Castle County, the northernmost of Pennsylvania's lower three counties.
When people bring up slavery, you must consider what amount, or percentage of blacks were in slavery at the time of the emancipation proclamation. Any research will undercover that Delaware had a minute amount or percentage of these, despite bordering the confederate state of Maryland.
In colonial times, it is without doubt that Delaware was considered a middle colony.
Unfortunately, the U.S. Census makes brash considerations as to where it must draw the line between north and south. Obviously, it has made a mistake in the 2000 Census.
This does not mean we have to perpetuate this misinterpretration on Wikipedia. Those who argue Delaware southern are usually New Englanders. If you speak geographically, north and south split down Virginia's southern border.
Correct the map as it should be corrected. At the very least, Delaware should be shaded.
Feel free to argue your points.
Although —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.203.164 ( talk) 02:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Also, honestly, when people were setting up the regions for the Census I REALLY doubt they sat around and said "Hey, lets set it up so that the regions are representative of the cultures in the US." That didn't happen. They just did it probably without much rhyme or reason.
Secondly, yeah maybe some New Englanders will say we're a part of the south, but not nearly as many as how many Deep Southerners will venomously denounce our inclusion. Besides, I've heard even Bostonians before say MD and DE are NO WAY the South. I suppose this isn't very substantial or concrete evidence - so take it from the locals - Maryland, born and raised, not an ounce of southern about me. Moved to West Chester, PA and know New Castle County, DE very well - NOT southern...at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.30.197 ( talk) 17:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I am from CT and some may call it New England (only people from New England and other areas, not natives of CT!) but we do not use that title as we only deal with our NY/NJ/CT Tri-state area. While we see Boston and New England as it's own region (which it is), we include them as the northeast all the way down to D.C. There have never been any doubts about DE being in the NE along with MD and DC. PA is the only state in question from our perspective as it is not on the east coast and most of it is near the mid-west. We do call Philly an eastern city however.
I know how you guys feel you are in YOUR state telling the world where YOU are, but people who do no even live in your state want to tell you who you should be. I keep having a battle with a guy on here who hates for me to take New England out of all things CT but he goes in and puts New England in all things CT when I come with proof after proof that CT is a part of metro NYC and we do not call ourselves "New Englanders" and we consider the state to the east and north as New England, which does not include us. Now that CT has been removed from a New England tourism site, that should help my cause. I get tired of people (outsiders, lying and saying they are from where we are) trying to force us into something that we are not a part of. When I went to Philly, they ave the PA,NJ,DE Tri-state area. That says it all Slavery has nothing to do with a state being in the northeast or not! The biggest northern slave port was in RI!
Someone mentioned accents. Here in CT, we do not have the Boston accent (because we are not near them or that area), but some (they) like to tie us in with them because they are lonely out there with no other major city near-by. We are 10 minutes away from NYC - Boston is hours away. Some people like to bring up the HISTORY of DE or MD to include them in the south. That was history and most of their history was not the south. They like to say historically CT is New England, but that was HISTORY. Geography AND history shows that it was always NY as well. These articles are always written with agendas instead of the facts which is why I hate this site because it reads like propaganda instead of reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.187 ( talk) 17:22, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
I reverted Grayshi's insertion of several states as falling within various entities' definitions of Northeastern United States. The insertion violated WP:UNDUE (as did the examples discussed on this talk page above in relation to similar insertions in July) because it elevates the characterization of random agencies above others without any third party sourcing to establish that the agency's opinion is worth inclusion (the U.S. Energy Information Administration Natural Gas Pipeline System? Wisconsin?). This just highlights how the term "Northeastern United States" doesn't have much of a meaning at all. The only agency that has defined the "region" and received third party coverage of the characterization is the Census Bureau. It is not perfect, but it is supportable with sources other than primary sources which run into WP:UNDUE problem if strictly summarized only or WP:SYNTH problems as they did in the paste. Hoppingalong ( talk) 00:47, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
People might argue with that analysis, but I would argue that it doesn't matter anyway. Whether you or I think a region is properly a region, or that it is properly drawn if such a region is appropriate, is irrelevant. All that matters is the coverage it gets. I agree that the region as the CB defines it is barely notable, if it indeed is (Britannica, for instance, does not have an article covering the Northeastern or Northeast U.S.). But certainly other definitions are even less so. As I have said, I'm not sure "Northeastern United States" really means all that much. The focus on the CB definition along with the mention that there are other definitions seems to get the weight about right as per WP:UNDUE. FWIW, I think the "history" section should be re-titled (maybe to "Composition") and limited with main wikilinks to the actual regions (New England and Mid-Atlantic). This will help the rampant OR, point people to articles that are more likely to give them what they are looking for, and make this article a much shorter (which seems right to me, compared to other, real regions) super disambiguation page, sort of. Hoppingalong ( talk) 22:57, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
With these linked edits, I removed most of the uncited geography/climate material. It was flagged since June 2010, was entirely uncited and essay-like (or even apparent OR in some cases), was unclear as to which definition of Northeastern United States it was based on, and was not written in an encyclopedic tone. I also reordered the remaining sections to put the Northeast Megalopolis paragraph closer to the demographic information (which also has source problems, but there must be sources to be had on it). On a more minor note, I removed the see also links because they are linked already in the footers and it seemed disproportionate for them to be also linked as see alsos. Hoppingalong ( talk) 01:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I moved this article to Northeastern United States (U.S. Census Bureau) from Northeastern United States in an effort for clarity and to avoid the regular fights about which definition of this "region" should apply. If other version s of the region are notable, they can get their own article and Northeastern United States can disambiguate. The Census Bureau regional definitions are the most widely used, as noted in the article. But there are so many other definitions, I thought adding the Census Bureau would add clarity. Because of the number of other definitions, and because nobody has put forward any sources that indicate the region is somehow inherently cohesive, I think this is the best way to handle it. Though there are no other NE U.S. articles yet, there could be. Though the Census Bureau is the most widely used, that does not necessarily mean it should not have a qualifier in the title as per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Hoppingalong ( talk) 01:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
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I added the population under the demographics section, it seemed weird that it was missing. Red Hair Bow ( talk) 00:22, 13 April 2011 (UTC)