This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
North-Central American English article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 365 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
An example in Minnesota is we tend to say "Miniee" "Soda" where the T\D is mangled. It extends into Wisconsin but not so much into Michigan or the Dakotas. It has been my experience that the eastern seaboard still tends to shape the T more as in the name "Tom" where natives in the area are more akin to say it as a D as in "Dominate" In addition the mid-west dialect tends to favor single syllable words and dropping portions of a sentence, ("Hi" instead of "Hello", "No thanks" versus "No thank you", even so far as "Thanks" instead of "Thank you"). A few words that seem distinct are "Yep", "Nope" vs "Yeah\Yes" and "No". kcp - 8/9/11 6:06 pm cst — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.108.91 ( talk) 23:15, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
how come there's no page for the chicago accent? Ashwinr 19:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Anyone ever heard a Minnesotan say "yah sure, you betcha" except as a joke? Neither I nor my roommate have, and we've both lived here a while. Jay Maynard 02:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
"Bill you coming or what?" "Yeah sure, let me grab my coat."
"Dude did you gonna bring Debbie with?" "You betcha but I have to check if I can find a sitter."
You betcha tends to be more enthusiastic in nature that the WW2 and Baby Boomer generations. It's dying pretty quick. -kcp 8/9/11 6:18 pm cst — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.108.91 ( talk) 23:19, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Re "yah sure", you've probably been talking with younger people. My deceased great uncle, from Rochester, NY talked like that.
Sorry everyone, I'm not good at using HTML so I just stuck this in where I could, but it seems like much of this article is very poorly cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.129.127.221 ( talk) 20:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
It should be added that this dialect uses the word 'yet' in a way that most Americans view as old fashioned, i.e. "The bus is coming yet," and also that in the more northern parts of this sprechraum 'th' is rendered as 'd' or 't' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.38.54.74 ( talk) 21:11, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Palin doesn't speak with a Minnesota accent. She lacks characteristic Minnesotan "flag-plague merger" and exhibits a much greater degree of Canadian raising than do most Minnesotans. 71.63.240.191 ( talk) 04:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Actually, i'm from Rural mn so our accent is quite strong and believe me she sounds a lot like us! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.183.179.58 ( talk) 22:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
You haven't mentioned the Op-ed in the New York Times by Steve Pinker. "The dialect is certainly for real. Listeners who hear the Minnewegian sounds of the characters from “Fargo” when they listen to Ms. Palin are on to something: the Matanuska-Susitna Valley in Alaska, where she grew up, was settled by farmers from Minnesota during the Depression." Regardless of opinions about finer distinctions, Steven Pinker has identified as being North Central American English.-- Louiedog ( talk) 19:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
How about my proposed wording above, that maybe we can't source that it is NCA English exactly, but that it's very strongly related?-- Louiedog ( talk) 19:51, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I've lived in Northern IOwa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin all my life and I've never heard people pronounce that way in even half the list... -- Bandita Chinchilla ( talk) 21:34, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I linked to two websites [1] [2] which are not scientific but seem to describe the accent accurately. If there is a problem with them not being good enough sources to include, per Wikipedia guidelines, please comment. Mapsax ( talk) 23:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
The lead section currently reads, "It is also sometimes called the Great Lakes Accent." The only source cited for the lead section is Labov, Ash, and Boberg (2006). If memory serves, though, LAB use "Great Lakes" to refer to Inland North rather than North Central, and typically use the latter two labels when comparing regions. Are there reliable sources stating that "Great Lakes," "Upper Midwestern," and "North Central" are all names for the same dialect region? Cnilep ( talk) 18:29, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 09:38, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Upper Midwest American English →
North-Central American English [originally, North Central American English] – I'm not really sure where "Upper Midwest American English" comes from, from the standpoint of the academic research. "North Central American English" certainly receives over 10 times more hits on Google, largely since respected linguists like Labov refer to the variety by names like the "North Central dialect" and the dialect area itself as the "North Central region." Also, "Upper Midwest American English" seems rather unclear; why not use "Upper Midwestern American English" or even delete American and thus call it "Upper Midwest English"? The answer: because "Upper Midwest" (a common, non-linguistics name for the region) has been arbitrarily tacked onto "American English" in order to follow a trend established by other dialect names on WP, such as "
Inland Northern American English," "Southern American English," "Mid-Atlantic American English," etc. However, we can still follow this general trend while using the name actually favored by linguists. --Relisted.
George Ho (
talk) 04:08, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Wolfdog (
talk)
02:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
In the "Grammar" section of the article, it says
"In this dialect, the preposition with is used without an object as an adverb in phrases like come with, as in Do you want to come with? for standard Do you want to come with me? or with us?."
I don't think that's quite right. I am from Minnesota, and my father's family uses non-standard grammar like this, but it isn't exactly as described in the article. Rather than using a preposition without an object, it's more like adding an unnecessary preposition onto the end of the sentence.
For example, my father will says things like: Where's my coat at? instead of Where's my coat? or: Where are you going to? instead of Where are you going?
For these examples, there is no object that would make the sentence grammatically correct; It just has an extra preposition in it for no reason.
I'm not suggesting any edits to the article. I'm not a language expert, and this is just something I've observed in my own family. I'm curious to know if any other Minnesota folk have seen this pattern, or if this is just something weird with my family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TessTrella ( talk • contribs) 15:30, August 8, 2016 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 6 December 2023. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Pbroskoff (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Pbroskoff ( talk) 18:22, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
North-Central American English article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 365 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
An example in Minnesota is we tend to say "Miniee" "Soda" where the T\D is mangled. It extends into Wisconsin but not so much into Michigan or the Dakotas. It has been my experience that the eastern seaboard still tends to shape the T more as in the name "Tom" where natives in the area are more akin to say it as a D as in "Dominate" In addition the mid-west dialect tends to favor single syllable words and dropping portions of a sentence, ("Hi" instead of "Hello", "No thanks" versus "No thank you", even so far as "Thanks" instead of "Thank you"). A few words that seem distinct are "Yep", "Nope" vs "Yeah\Yes" and "No". kcp - 8/9/11 6:06 pm cst — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.108.91 ( talk) 23:15, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
how come there's no page for the chicago accent? Ashwinr 19:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Anyone ever heard a Minnesotan say "yah sure, you betcha" except as a joke? Neither I nor my roommate have, and we've both lived here a while. Jay Maynard 02:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
"Bill you coming or what?" "Yeah sure, let me grab my coat."
"Dude did you gonna bring Debbie with?" "You betcha but I have to check if I can find a sitter."
You betcha tends to be more enthusiastic in nature that the WW2 and Baby Boomer generations. It's dying pretty quick. -kcp 8/9/11 6:18 pm cst — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.108.91 ( talk) 23:19, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Re "yah sure", you've probably been talking with younger people. My deceased great uncle, from Rochester, NY talked like that.
Sorry everyone, I'm not good at using HTML so I just stuck this in where I could, but it seems like much of this article is very poorly cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.129.127.221 ( talk) 20:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
It should be added that this dialect uses the word 'yet' in a way that most Americans view as old fashioned, i.e. "The bus is coming yet," and also that in the more northern parts of this sprechraum 'th' is rendered as 'd' or 't' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.38.54.74 ( talk) 21:11, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Palin doesn't speak with a Minnesota accent. She lacks characteristic Minnesotan "flag-plague merger" and exhibits a much greater degree of Canadian raising than do most Minnesotans. 71.63.240.191 ( talk) 04:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Actually, i'm from Rural mn so our accent is quite strong and believe me she sounds a lot like us! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.183.179.58 ( talk) 22:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
You haven't mentioned the Op-ed in the New York Times by Steve Pinker. "The dialect is certainly for real. Listeners who hear the Minnewegian sounds of the characters from “Fargo” when they listen to Ms. Palin are on to something: the Matanuska-Susitna Valley in Alaska, where she grew up, was settled by farmers from Minnesota during the Depression." Regardless of opinions about finer distinctions, Steven Pinker has identified as being North Central American English.-- Louiedog ( talk) 19:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
How about my proposed wording above, that maybe we can't source that it is NCA English exactly, but that it's very strongly related?-- Louiedog ( talk) 19:51, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I've lived in Northern IOwa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin all my life and I've never heard people pronounce that way in even half the list... -- Bandita Chinchilla ( talk) 21:34, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I linked to two websites [1] [2] which are not scientific but seem to describe the accent accurately. If there is a problem with them not being good enough sources to include, per Wikipedia guidelines, please comment. Mapsax ( talk) 23:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
The lead section currently reads, "It is also sometimes called the Great Lakes Accent." The only source cited for the lead section is Labov, Ash, and Boberg (2006). If memory serves, though, LAB use "Great Lakes" to refer to Inland North rather than North Central, and typically use the latter two labels when comparing regions. Are there reliable sources stating that "Great Lakes," "Upper Midwestern," and "North Central" are all names for the same dialect region? Cnilep ( talk) 18:29, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 09:38, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Upper Midwest American English →
North-Central American English [originally, North Central American English] – I'm not really sure where "Upper Midwest American English" comes from, from the standpoint of the academic research. "North Central American English" certainly receives over 10 times more hits on Google, largely since respected linguists like Labov refer to the variety by names like the "North Central dialect" and the dialect area itself as the "North Central region." Also, "Upper Midwest American English" seems rather unclear; why not use "Upper Midwestern American English" or even delete American and thus call it "Upper Midwest English"? The answer: because "Upper Midwest" (a common, non-linguistics name for the region) has been arbitrarily tacked onto "American English" in order to follow a trend established by other dialect names on WP, such as "
Inland Northern American English," "Southern American English," "Mid-Atlantic American English," etc. However, we can still follow this general trend while using the name actually favored by linguists. --Relisted.
George Ho (
talk) 04:08, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Wolfdog (
talk)
02:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
In the "Grammar" section of the article, it says
"In this dialect, the preposition with is used without an object as an adverb in phrases like come with, as in Do you want to come with? for standard Do you want to come with me? or with us?."
I don't think that's quite right. I am from Minnesota, and my father's family uses non-standard grammar like this, but it isn't exactly as described in the article. Rather than using a preposition without an object, it's more like adding an unnecessary preposition onto the end of the sentence.
For example, my father will says things like: Where's my coat at? instead of Where's my coat? or: Where are you going to? instead of Where are you going?
For these examples, there is no object that would make the sentence grammatically correct; It just has an extra preposition in it for no reason.
I'm not suggesting any edits to the article. I'm not a language expert, and this is just something I've observed in my own family. I'm curious to know if any other Minnesota folk have seen this pattern, or if this is just something weird with my family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TessTrella ( talk • contribs) 15:30, August 8, 2016 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 6 December 2023. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Pbroskoff (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Pbroskoff ( talk) 18:22, 23 October 2023 (UTC)