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I don't think it's vandalism to add to the information bar that he's considered a fugitive. If I'm not mistaken he is indeed. This story calls him a fugitive donor. [1] Ainttalkin 22:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
A blog is not considered a credible source? Even if the blog is just reporting on the written statement that the lawyer Lawrence Barcella wrote to the Wall Street Journal defending Hsu and the Paws from the implication that Hsu reimbursed the Paws for their donanation to Democratic politicians? Media Matters also reported on Barcella's written statement. Would that be a better source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.97.94.31 ( talk) 02:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC) Also, the August 28, 2007, Wall Street Journal article doesn't say that Hsu once owned the house that the Paws now live in. Rather, it says that Hsu once listed the same address as the Paws as his own residence. Listing an address as your residence doesn't necessarily mean you own the place at that address. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.97.94.31 ( talk) 03:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The bio section looks much better now with subsections. Cm22 15:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
None of the references I found so far indicate that Hsu actually graduated from Berkeley. Can anyone verify that? Ronnotel 15:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Hsu turned himself in. [2] Jumping cheese 17:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The "Friends of Norman Hsu" received a $7,500 donation from Ted Sioeng on 3/11/95. [3] This suggests the possibility that Hsu was living in the U.S. at the time and running for a political office. Cm22 02:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... One blog does in fact report that there are "Two Hsus". [4] Some supporting information would be desirable, such as the location of the other Norman Hsu and relevant election records. Cm22 02:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
This 2001 article does seem to confirm that the Norman Hsu receiving a donation from Ted Sioeng was the individual living in Hacienda Heights. [5] Cm22 03:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Instead of posting a bunch of links here, I'll just state a few things here that I know as fact, so anyone can search the internet for more. Norman N. Hsu of Southern California (Chinese: 徐乃星) has served more than 10 years at the Hacienda La Puente Unified School District. He is ethnic Chinese born and raised in Indonesia (somewhere on eastern Java), lived through WW2 (Japanese occupation) as a child, moved to and attended college in Taiwan. He and his wife moved to the United States and worked for the USPS all their careers (and through his early school board years), but he had to retire from federal employment to run for State Assembly (District 60 [1992-2002]) in 1998 (for which I was a office volunteer for his campaign). He lost in the primary and continued serving the school board until now. Hacienda Heights is where the Hsi Lai Temple (where Gore visited and Chinese-American Democrat fundraisers did their illegal deeds) and where Matt Fong (former State Treasurer who won the GOP 1998 US senate nomination but lost the general election to incumbent) resides. So it is no surprise these Chinese-American candidates received donations from Sioeng, if he was giving to bigger "fish" (Clinton/Gore, DNC, etc.) already. The "Friends of Norman Hsu" report about a 1995 donation is likely linked to Hsu's school board campaign. "Friends of..." is usually related to a candidate, not fundraisers. HkCaGu 04:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the section alleging "ties to organized crime" and inserted a brief summary of it into the biography section. It is disingenuous at best to describe being kidnapped and tortured by the mob as having "ties" to them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiMarshall ( talk • contribs) 01:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikimarshall's reference to "the mob" is too vague and misses two important points. The first is that one of Hsu kidnappers was a ranking member of a triad which had reached out from Hong Kong to the U.S. West Coast. The second is that Hsu's lawyers disclosed that he had debtor-creditor relationship with his kidnappers. Wikimarshall's edit makes Hsu appear an innocent victim. The original entry had a more neutral tone, indicating that Hsu had a brief connection with organized crime but did not specify whether he was innocent or complicit in the events which unfolded in Foster City. I'm seeking to restore the original entry. I have changed the section heading to "Incident Involving Organized Crime", since this is more neutral and emphasizes that this was a singular incident and not necessarily repeated. I think the text within the section is neutral. If there are any objections, I would suggest updating the section rather than deleting it. Also, I object to the phrase "the mob" as colloquial and not appropriate for a encyclopedia entry. Cm22 06:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to migratie this text to a footnote (subject to my limited abilities using the Wiki markup language). It is a significant event, but is probably best mentioned very briefly in the text and then elaborated upon in a footnote. Cm22 09:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I added a reference from a story by a Bay Area TV stations (KGO ch 7). The story uses somewhat sensational language, but it is interesting because it has an interview with Raymond Chow, who confirms that he did in fact know Hsu. Chow would not answer questions for an earlier LA Times story. I think I'll just leave this at the end of the article rather than converting to a large footnote. It seems like there is a lot about Norman Hsu's past which is not yet understood. Cm22 15:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that this should be in the 'Biography' section, but I don't like it being a separate subsection of its own. One, it gives it undue weight; it's not (currently) that important in the scheme of Hsu's life and notability. Two, it's out of chrono order - whatever he was doing with this person in 1990 was likely due to his collapsed financial state at the time, something that isn't apparent in the current arrangement. Three, the text is longer than it needs to be; there's no need to get into the time of day, the number of occupants in the car, etc. We don't go into that level of detail for the Colorado train incident, which is likely more relevant. Wasted Time R 00:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok. I folded the alleged kidnapping instance into the 1990 part of his biography. Minimalism is the right way to go here. The references have been maintained. Cm22 08:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the information regarding Hsu's fund-raising ties to Burkle is inappropriate detail for the intro. I'm hard pressed to see why it even belongs in the article at all - why is this notable? The citation supporting it is a blog - it should be supported by something more reliable. Ronnotel 15:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Need his Chinese name, in Chinese characters. Badagnani 05:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Is it 徐元源? Badagnani 05:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for expertise. Most Chinese sources are just transliterating Norman. Badagnani 08:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
徐咏芫 is his Chinese name according to Hong Kong's Next Magazine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.238.254.60 ( talk) 23:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
That would be in simplified characters. In Hong Kong's traditional characters it would be 徐詠芫, which yields more results in Google. (Note that the Next Media Group does not allow browsing articles outside Hong Kong.) HkCaGu 00:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
More publications jumping onto the 徐詠芫 bandwagon, and someone created an article in Chinese with that, so I added his Chinese name on line 1. HkCaGu 17:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Broshahan's statement in second para of fugitive section now seems to be discredited by Hsu's repeated attempt to flee prosecution. I think it should be struck or somehow altered to acknowledge Hsu's subsequent attempt to escape. Ronnotel 12:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The reaction section seems a little light. There's been a tremendous amount of activity that hasn't been reflected in the section. I tagged it in the hopes that someone might be inclined to do a little digging. Also, there's been reaction from a lot of quarters, not just Hsu's donees. I think a subsection on Donee reaction is appropriate, but that shouldn't preclude other reaction. Ronnotel 15:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I attempted a rewrite of the section. I thought maybe we should not do a lot of name dropping of various politicians. I cite Bob Kerrey mainly because his commments generally show the full circle of responses. I cite Hillary as a contrast to Kerrey. Some will think I have gone easy on Hillary, but I don't think she should be unnecessarily highlighted in this article. It's mainly an issue of balance. Cm22 09:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
A quick stop-by. A few observations. First, the header section attempts to describe him as a fundraiser who happens to be a prominent businessman and who happens to be a fugitive / criminal. Hsu's notability is not for his being a Democratic fundraiser, and it is incorrect to say as much. The extent of his fundraising would hardly deserve a mention on Wikipedia. The only issues that make him notable are: (i) he started some clothing companies; (ii) he became a fugitive for many years after being charged with running a ponzi scheme, and most importantly (iii) he was caught leading a double life as a political operative. The article ought to be recast to reflect that.
Second, the article covers the investigation, which is not notable. "Wall Street Journal report that", "several days after xxxx. it was revealed that", this kind of tone is inappropriate to Wikipedia. Either he did or he did not. It does not matter who reported it, unless the subject of the article is investigative journalism...which is it not. If a claim can be verified to reliable sources, it should be reported as fact. If not, it should not be here. Our mission is not to cover breaking news, it is to compile information once we can be sure. Wikidemo 09:27, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Here's a cut at a trimmed-down intro:
It seems like the "Defense" section (2.4) is really not necessary. Does anyone else want to delete it? Comments about most of the Paw money coming from Winkle can be integrated elsewhere. Cm22 09:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Although it perhaps keeps the article balanced to have a defense section, there has been nothing coherent about the statements from Hsu's attorneys (Barcella and Brosnahan). The Media Matters stuff is opaque and difficult to read. Given the facts as they are, I would say that it is almost impossible to offer a coherent defense for Hsu. Brosnahan's comments about Hsu's "mental health" may be an indicator of how the defense plans to proceed. Cm22 16:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I went ahead and removed it as part of a general cleanup. It seemed to have a current events character which had started to go stale. We lost two Media Matters refs, but those were not actually news articles. I'll work in the the WSJ ref that was lost ( [9]) Cm22 16:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Those of you doing trimming edits need to be more careful — if you remove text that includes a base citation (something with <ref name="foobar">{{cite ...}}</ref> in it), then you risk orphaning any citations that refer forwards or backwards to that (<ref name="foobar"/>). As I write this, the citations that go with references 7 and 12 have been lost due to this effect. When you remove a base citation, you need to find if there are any forwards or backwards references to it, and migrate the base to one of them. Yes, this is a pain and is a limitation of the primitive Wikimedia citation software, but it has to be done. Wasted Time R 12:42, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The recent "trimming" and "balancing" edits described above have turned the article from one that was very carefully cited into one with many uncited claims. Some of these claims we know to be true (that Hsu was a HillRaiser) but the citations have been lost in the shuffle. Some of these claims we do not necessarily know to be true: says who that Clinton "disengaged from Hsu earlier than many others in the Democratic Party"? I get the impression that every prominent Dem recipient defended Hsu on the initial improper bundling charge, then fled from Hsu as soon as the fugitive history was revealed. Was Clinton really different in this regard? And where did all this stuff about ununified state databases and silent local officials come from? I have added {{citeneeded}} flags as needed. Wasted Time R 13:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
OK. I removed the discussion of multiple databases for being a non-sequitur. I also excised the repeated "citation needed" markups as not appropriate, since the statements are supported in the body of rerences supplied. I will try to add any key reference articles which are missing (can anyone help here?). Cm22 16:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I've relented and put in citations as recommended. Cm22 21:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Currently the Status as Fugitive section segues from the Paw family discussion. Should this be a separate section just under the bio? Cm22 05:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
There have been some Philadelphia Inquirer articles about some east coast associates who are in a similar situation to the Paw family (though not as of limited means). Would this merit a subsection? Cm22 05:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I have been of the opinion that the Norman Hsu article should not dwell too much on Hillary Clinton, and my observation has been that her campaign has responded to the Hsu issues more promptly than other Democratic candidates.
However, there are some facts in the latest Hsu newspaper articles today (10 Sept 2007) which might merit inclusion in the Hillary Clinton Wikipedia article. (I am not brave enough to involve myself in that article, which I imagine could be like wading into a piranha infested river). It does appear that her campaign ignored warnings from both donors and the DNC that Hsu might be scamming investors and intimidating them into making contributions. My take on this is that the Clinton campaign was not vigilant, but once confronted with irrefutable facts they responded quickly and forthrightly.
On the other hand, I'm not sure how easy it would have been to do a criminal background check on Hsu since his date of birth may have been reported differently at different times and Chinese nationals do not always have middle initials. Cm22 08:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the LA Times did some very good investigative work uncovering Hsu's fugitive status. However, I am informed that the LA Times Washington bureau had been tracking Hsu for some time, and it wasn't just like they read the original WSJ story one day, did a few quick internet searches and wrote their story the next day. What I don't know is if they knew about his fugitive status before the WSJ story came out. If they did know about his fugitive status beforehand, did they have a responsibility to inform law enforcement? What are the legal/ethical issues here? Cm22 08:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Where is the evidence that Hillary Clinton "disengaged relatively quickly" from Norman Hsu? The citation for that claim says nothing of the kind. Looks like original research to me. It certainly isn't properly cited. Who cares if she did it earlier than Ed Rendell? 74.77.208.52 20:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The original sealed federal warrant has been released [10]. The warrant is clearly marked "no bail", yet we read that bail was set at $5 million by a Colorado court. My assumption is that the federal charges must already have been dismissed, though I don't know whether a formal dismissal has occured yet. If Hsu is released on bail and then flees again... oh well... it would just be yet another embarrassing spectacle for the lawyers and judges of the United States. Cm22 05:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
No news yet of whether Hsu has posted bail. Cm22 00:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Some detailed numbers to watch for in other sources: [11] ( SEWilco 03:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC))
I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of October 27, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations. — Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 09:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
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"After the scandal went public, Bill Clinton remarked in colloquial language, 'You could have knocked me over with a straw'."
Doens't that seem weird, pointing out that it's a colloquialism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.34.47.141 ( talk) 02:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Willie sure is slick. But, lets be fair....just because you meet someone does not mean you share their morality and values. AND....A dollar is fundgable, you did not know that a dollar someone gives you is a stolen dollar. As a programmer, I've worked on some political adjendas. That doesnt mean we share the same values. We need to stop this ankle biting, and get back to discussing and debating real issues and diffrences of policy. (Like stopping this debt bubble from bursting). Unfortnatuly right now, I still think the dems are winning the mud slinging, and this is an attempt to "have them taste their own cooking", which is foolish. 162.72.225.8 ( talk) 14:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
His family name is not pronounced "soo"; it's more like a light "sh", which is translated as "hs" or "x"
Why is there a template for the University of Pennsylvania? Article does not show a connection. -- DThomsen8 ( talk) 19:46, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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I don't think it's vandalism to add to the information bar that he's considered a fugitive. If I'm not mistaken he is indeed. This story calls him a fugitive donor. [1] Ainttalkin 22:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
A blog is not considered a credible source? Even if the blog is just reporting on the written statement that the lawyer Lawrence Barcella wrote to the Wall Street Journal defending Hsu and the Paws from the implication that Hsu reimbursed the Paws for their donanation to Democratic politicians? Media Matters also reported on Barcella's written statement. Would that be a better source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.97.94.31 ( talk) 02:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC) Also, the August 28, 2007, Wall Street Journal article doesn't say that Hsu once owned the house that the Paws now live in. Rather, it says that Hsu once listed the same address as the Paws as his own residence. Listing an address as your residence doesn't necessarily mean you own the place at that address. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.97.94.31 ( talk) 03:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The bio section looks much better now with subsections. Cm22 15:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
None of the references I found so far indicate that Hsu actually graduated from Berkeley. Can anyone verify that? Ronnotel 15:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Hsu turned himself in. [2] Jumping cheese 17:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The "Friends of Norman Hsu" received a $7,500 donation from Ted Sioeng on 3/11/95. [3] This suggests the possibility that Hsu was living in the U.S. at the time and running for a political office. Cm22 02:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... One blog does in fact report that there are "Two Hsus". [4] Some supporting information would be desirable, such as the location of the other Norman Hsu and relevant election records. Cm22 02:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
This 2001 article does seem to confirm that the Norman Hsu receiving a donation from Ted Sioeng was the individual living in Hacienda Heights. [5] Cm22 03:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Instead of posting a bunch of links here, I'll just state a few things here that I know as fact, so anyone can search the internet for more. Norman N. Hsu of Southern California (Chinese: 徐乃星) has served more than 10 years at the Hacienda La Puente Unified School District. He is ethnic Chinese born and raised in Indonesia (somewhere on eastern Java), lived through WW2 (Japanese occupation) as a child, moved to and attended college in Taiwan. He and his wife moved to the United States and worked for the USPS all their careers (and through his early school board years), but he had to retire from federal employment to run for State Assembly (District 60 [1992-2002]) in 1998 (for which I was a office volunteer for his campaign). He lost in the primary and continued serving the school board until now. Hacienda Heights is where the Hsi Lai Temple (where Gore visited and Chinese-American Democrat fundraisers did their illegal deeds) and where Matt Fong (former State Treasurer who won the GOP 1998 US senate nomination but lost the general election to incumbent) resides. So it is no surprise these Chinese-American candidates received donations from Sioeng, if he was giving to bigger "fish" (Clinton/Gore, DNC, etc.) already. The "Friends of Norman Hsu" report about a 1995 donation is likely linked to Hsu's school board campaign. "Friends of..." is usually related to a candidate, not fundraisers. HkCaGu 04:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the section alleging "ties to organized crime" and inserted a brief summary of it into the biography section. It is disingenuous at best to describe being kidnapped and tortured by the mob as having "ties" to them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiMarshall ( talk • contribs) 01:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikimarshall's reference to "the mob" is too vague and misses two important points. The first is that one of Hsu kidnappers was a ranking member of a triad which had reached out from Hong Kong to the U.S. West Coast. The second is that Hsu's lawyers disclosed that he had debtor-creditor relationship with his kidnappers. Wikimarshall's edit makes Hsu appear an innocent victim. The original entry had a more neutral tone, indicating that Hsu had a brief connection with organized crime but did not specify whether he was innocent or complicit in the events which unfolded in Foster City. I'm seeking to restore the original entry. I have changed the section heading to "Incident Involving Organized Crime", since this is more neutral and emphasizes that this was a singular incident and not necessarily repeated. I think the text within the section is neutral. If there are any objections, I would suggest updating the section rather than deleting it. Also, I object to the phrase "the mob" as colloquial and not appropriate for a encyclopedia entry. Cm22 06:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to migratie this text to a footnote (subject to my limited abilities using the Wiki markup language). It is a significant event, but is probably best mentioned very briefly in the text and then elaborated upon in a footnote. Cm22 09:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I added a reference from a story by a Bay Area TV stations (KGO ch 7). The story uses somewhat sensational language, but it is interesting because it has an interview with Raymond Chow, who confirms that he did in fact know Hsu. Chow would not answer questions for an earlier LA Times story. I think I'll just leave this at the end of the article rather than converting to a large footnote. It seems like there is a lot about Norman Hsu's past which is not yet understood. Cm22 15:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that this should be in the 'Biography' section, but I don't like it being a separate subsection of its own. One, it gives it undue weight; it's not (currently) that important in the scheme of Hsu's life and notability. Two, it's out of chrono order - whatever he was doing with this person in 1990 was likely due to his collapsed financial state at the time, something that isn't apparent in the current arrangement. Three, the text is longer than it needs to be; there's no need to get into the time of day, the number of occupants in the car, etc. We don't go into that level of detail for the Colorado train incident, which is likely more relevant. Wasted Time R 00:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok. I folded the alleged kidnapping instance into the 1990 part of his biography. Minimalism is the right way to go here. The references have been maintained. Cm22 08:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the information regarding Hsu's fund-raising ties to Burkle is inappropriate detail for the intro. I'm hard pressed to see why it even belongs in the article at all - why is this notable? The citation supporting it is a blog - it should be supported by something more reliable. Ronnotel 15:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Need his Chinese name, in Chinese characters. Badagnani 05:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Is it 徐元源? Badagnani 05:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for expertise. Most Chinese sources are just transliterating Norman. Badagnani 08:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
徐咏芫 is his Chinese name according to Hong Kong's Next Magazine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.238.254.60 ( talk) 23:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
That would be in simplified characters. In Hong Kong's traditional characters it would be 徐詠芫, which yields more results in Google. (Note that the Next Media Group does not allow browsing articles outside Hong Kong.) HkCaGu 00:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
More publications jumping onto the 徐詠芫 bandwagon, and someone created an article in Chinese with that, so I added his Chinese name on line 1. HkCaGu 17:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Broshahan's statement in second para of fugitive section now seems to be discredited by Hsu's repeated attempt to flee prosecution. I think it should be struck or somehow altered to acknowledge Hsu's subsequent attempt to escape. Ronnotel 12:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The reaction section seems a little light. There's been a tremendous amount of activity that hasn't been reflected in the section. I tagged it in the hopes that someone might be inclined to do a little digging. Also, there's been reaction from a lot of quarters, not just Hsu's donees. I think a subsection on Donee reaction is appropriate, but that shouldn't preclude other reaction. Ronnotel 15:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I attempted a rewrite of the section. I thought maybe we should not do a lot of name dropping of various politicians. I cite Bob Kerrey mainly because his commments generally show the full circle of responses. I cite Hillary as a contrast to Kerrey. Some will think I have gone easy on Hillary, but I don't think she should be unnecessarily highlighted in this article. It's mainly an issue of balance. Cm22 09:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
A quick stop-by. A few observations. First, the header section attempts to describe him as a fundraiser who happens to be a prominent businessman and who happens to be a fugitive / criminal. Hsu's notability is not for his being a Democratic fundraiser, and it is incorrect to say as much. The extent of his fundraising would hardly deserve a mention on Wikipedia. The only issues that make him notable are: (i) he started some clothing companies; (ii) he became a fugitive for many years after being charged with running a ponzi scheme, and most importantly (iii) he was caught leading a double life as a political operative. The article ought to be recast to reflect that.
Second, the article covers the investigation, which is not notable. "Wall Street Journal report that", "several days after xxxx. it was revealed that", this kind of tone is inappropriate to Wikipedia. Either he did or he did not. It does not matter who reported it, unless the subject of the article is investigative journalism...which is it not. If a claim can be verified to reliable sources, it should be reported as fact. If not, it should not be here. Our mission is not to cover breaking news, it is to compile information once we can be sure. Wikidemo 09:27, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Here's a cut at a trimmed-down intro:
It seems like the "Defense" section (2.4) is really not necessary. Does anyone else want to delete it? Comments about most of the Paw money coming from Winkle can be integrated elsewhere. Cm22 09:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Although it perhaps keeps the article balanced to have a defense section, there has been nothing coherent about the statements from Hsu's attorneys (Barcella and Brosnahan). The Media Matters stuff is opaque and difficult to read. Given the facts as they are, I would say that it is almost impossible to offer a coherent defense for Hsu. Brosnahan's comments about Hsu's "mental health" may be an indicator of how the defense plans to proceed. Cm22 16:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I went ahead and removed it as part of a general cleanup. It seemed to have a current events character which had started to go stale. We lost two Media Matters refs, but those were not actually news articles. I'll work in the the WSJ ref that was lost ( [9]) Cm22 16:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Those of you doing trimming edits need to be more careful — if you remove text that includes a base citation (something with <ref name="foobar">{{cite ...}}</ref> in it), then you risk orphaning any citations that refer forwards or backwards to that (<ref name="foobar"/>). As I write this, the citations that go with references 7 and 12 have been lost due to this effect. When you remove a base citation, you need to find if there are any forwards or backwards references to it, and migrate the base to one of them. Yes, this is a pain and is a limitation of the primitive Wikimedia citation software, but it has to be done. Wasted Time R 12:42, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The recent "trimming" and "balancing" edits described above have turned the article from one that was very carefully cited into one with many uncited claims. Some of these claims we know to be true (that Hsu was a HillRaiser) but the citations have been lost in the shuffle. Some of these claims we do not necessarily know to be true: says who that Clinton "disengaged from Hsu earlier than many others in the Democratic Party"? I get the impression that every prominent Dem recipient defended Hsu on the initial improper bundling charge, then fled from Hsu as soon as the fugitive history was revealed. Was Clinton really different in this regard? And where did all this stuff about ununified state databases and silent local officials come from? I have added {{citeneeded}} flags as needed. Wasted Time R 13:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
OK. I removed the discussion of multiple databases for being a non-sequitur. I also excised the repeated "citation needed" markups as not appropriate, since the statements are supported in the body of rerences supplied. I will try to add any key reference articles which are missing (can anyone help here?). Cm22 16:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I've relented and put in citations as recommended. Cm22 21:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Currently the Status as Fugitive section segues from the Paw family discussion. Should this be a separate section just under the bio? Cm22 05:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
There have been some Philadelphia Inquirer articles about some east coast associates who are in a similar situation to the Paw family (though not as of limited means). Would this merit a subsection? Cm22 05:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I have been of the opinion that the Norman Hsu article should not dwell too much on Hillary Clinton, and my observation has been that her campaign has responded to the Hsu issues more promptly than other Democratic candidates.
However, there are some facts in the latest Hsu newspaper articles today (10 Sept 2007) which might merit inclusion in the Hillary Clinton Wikipedia article. (I am not brave enough to involve myself in that article, which I imagine could be like wading into a piranha infested river). It does appear that her campaign ignored warnings from both donors and the DNC that Hsu might be scamming investors and intimidating them into making contributions. My take on this is that the Clinton campaign was not vigilant, but once confronted with irrefutable facts they responded quickly and forthrightly.
On the other hand, I'm not sure how easy it would have been to do a criminal background check on Hsu since his date of birth may have been reported differently at different times and Chinese nationals do not always have middle initials. Cm22 08:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the LA Times did some very good investigative work uncovering Hsu's fugitive status. However, I am informed that the LA Times Washington bureau had been tracking Hsu for some time, and it wasn't just like they read the original WSJ story one day, did a few quick internet searches and wrote their story the next day. What I don't know is if they knew about his fugitive status before the WSJ story came out. If they did know about his fugitive status beforehand, did they have a responsibility to inform law enforcement? What are the legal/ethical issues here? Cm22 08:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Where is the evidence that Hillary Clinton "disengaged relatively quickly" from Norman Hsu? The citation for that claim says nothing of the kind. Looks like original research to me. It certainly isn't properly cited. Who cares if she did it earlier than Ed Rendell? 74.77.208.52 20:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The original sealed federal warrant has been released [10]. The warrant is clearly marked "no bail", yet we read that bail was set at $5 million by a Colorado court. My assumption is that the federal charges must already have been dismissed, though I don't know whether a formal dismissal has occured yet. If Hsu is released on bail and then flees again... oh well... it would just be yet another embarrassing spectacle for the lawyers and judges of the United States. Cm22 05:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
No news yet of whether Hsu has posted bail. Cm22 00:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Some detailed numbers to watch for in other sources: [11] ( SEWilco 03:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC))
I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of October 27, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations. — Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 09:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot 04:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
"After the scandal went public, Bill Clinton remarked in colloquial language, 'You could have knocked me over with a straw'."
Doens't that seem weird, pointing out that it's a colloquialism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.34.47.141 ( talk) 02:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Willie sure is slick. But, lets be fair....just because you meet someone does not mean you share their morality and values. AND....A dollar is fundgable, you did not know that a dollar someone gives you is a stolen dollar. As a programmer, I've worked on some political adjendas. That doesnt mean we share the same values. We need to stop this ankle biting, and get back to discussing and debating real issues and diffrences of policy. (Like stopping this debt bubble from bursting). Unfortnatuly right now, I still think the dems are winning the mud slinging, and this is an attempt to "have them taste their own cooking", which is foolish. 162.72.225.8 ( talk) 14:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
His family name is not pronounced "soo"; it's more like a light "sh", which is translated as "hs" or "x"
Why is there a template for the University of Pennsylvania? Article does not show a connection. -- DThomsen8 ( talk) 19:46, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
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