There should be mention of those non-SA figures that were killed - ex-Chancellor von Schleicher and his wife, ex-Bavarian Premier von Kahr even the music teacher Willi Schmidt mistaken for the local SA leader Wilhelm Schmidt.
Removed questions and discussions from article. - Patrick 09:35 May 1, 2003 (UTC).
Previous version of the text parts:
The purge was the result of the political struggle between the Nazi leaders subordinate to Hitler - Hermann Göring, Joseph Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich and Ernst Röhm, the leader of the SA. Hitler encouraged political infighting amongst his subordinates, and the power of Röhm and his violent organization scared his rivals. Himmler had evidence manufactured to defame Röhm and presented it to Hitler. //source?//
While Hitler had been personally rather fond of Röhm he was under pressure to reduce his influence. German military leaders were unhappy with the proposal of Röhm that the German army be absorbed into the larger SA, and the industrialists that supported Hitler were concerned over Röhm's socialist leanings. Members of the Nazi party also viewed Röhm and some other SA leaders with distaste because they were homosexuals. //sources for all this???//
With all these groups arrayed against Röhm, Hitler decided to act. //According to...//, he ordered all the SA leaders to attend a meeting at the Hanselbauer Hotel in Wiesse, near Munich. On June 29 Hitler arrived with a strong SS force; he was present as Röhm was arrested, and in the following hours other SA leaders were also arrested, and many of these, //including/for instance LIST NAMES // were shot out of hand. Apparently Hitler intended to pardon Röhm, but eventually decided to have him die. It is believed that Röhm was offered a chance of suicide but was eventually shot.
Hitler announced the purge on 13 July, claiming 61 had been executed and 13 shot while resisting arrest. "I become the supreme judge of the German people. I gave the order to shoot the ringleaders". //source???//
\\"I become the supreme judge of the German people--this does not sound like an accurate translation. "I have become" -- perhaps. "I became" --perhaps. But not "I become". The truth is, that since we are not restricted by size/pages/paper, there's not reason every direct quote should not be in the original AND translation, with a cite to the source of the original. This supposed quote is an example.//
..it should be mentioned that not only SA members have been killed but also some SA-unrelated opponents of AH
What is the history of the name, does it reference any work of literature? When was the purge first called Night of the Long Knives? -- 130.161.31.140 30 June 2005 13:06 (UTC)
As detailed quite nicely at [ [1]] and contrary to popular belief, Hitler was not elected.
Here's my thumbnail summary of the info on the above-referenced page:
Sept. 1930: Reichstag elections, Nazis win 18.3% of seats, becoming second largest party in Germany.
1931: Chancellor Heinrich Bruning attempts to negotiate with Hitler in hopes of convincing Hitler to agree to an extension of President Hindenburg's term, and avoid an election in 1932. Hitler declines.
1932: Presidential election, Hitler comes in second in both rounds, receiving 35% in the second round.
Hindenburg dismisses Bruning as Chancellor and appoints Franz von Papen, who immediately calls for new Reichstag elections.
July 1932: Reichstag elections, Nazis win 230 seats, becoming the largest party in the Reichstag.
Reichstag votes no-confidence (by 84%) in the government, Reichstag dissolved, new elections called.
November 1932: Nazis lose seats but remain largest party in the Reichstag; Hindenburg dismisses Papen in favor of Kurt von Schleicher to try his hand at forming a stable coalition in the Reichstag. Schleicher fails, and Papen (along with a coalition of German businessmen, see [ [2]]) convinces Hindenburg to appoint Hitler as Chancellor.
So, Hitler himself was never elected to office, but was appointed Chancellor.
63.206.91.183 08:59, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure that Reichsmordwoche should be translated as "Imperial Week of Murder." Reich can also mean realm, or more colloquially the German state itself. It appears that the translation was added by an anonymous user [3], and it really feels like the work of Google and whatnot. It was originally added by WHEELER back in 2004 [4]; I'd ask him for a source but I think that he has left the project. I'm loath to translate it at all–German compound nouns really lose something auf Englisch. I'm removing the translation for the moment. Ideas? Mackensen (talk) 22:19, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
This:
The Night of the Long Knives, also known as Reichsmordwoche or "the Blood Purge" (German, Nacht der langen Messer)
- is a bit of a mess, mostly because it separates "The Night of the Long Knives" from "(German, Nacht der langen Messer)", which since it's a translation should be right by it so that it's clear to the reader what means what. Having it two more terms apart is confusing. I am about to put that right, so it will say:
The Night of the Long Knives (German, Nacht der langen Messer), also known as Reichsmordwoche or "the Blood Purge"
- that's a bit better, but it's still messy because it still looks to the casual reader as if "Reichsmordwoche" and "the Blood Purge" could be equivalents/translations, and, unless my German has deserted me, they are not. Perhaps someone else would like a go at this? 138.37.188.109 10:20, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC) I have some problems with this sentence in the opening paragraph:
First, while many SA by 1934 were angry that the Nazi regime did not do more to put socialism into practice, it is wrong to say that some SA "were associated more with socialism than nationalism," as the above writer states. They were all ferocious German nationalists. To say that some "were associated more with socialism than nationalism" draws a false dichotomy between the two. Second, while many in the army supported Hitler's rise to power, it is wrong to say that "the army...supported Hitler's rise to power." It's just too simplistic to put it that way. The army and its leaders despised and feared communism. They were sympathetic to conservative parties in general. But many in the old Prussian elite looked at Nazism with distaste, and only supported it in end, as Hindenburg did, as a way of combating the communist menace. Third, I don't agree with "During this event, however, the Gestapo also targeted conservative rivals and elements within and outside the regime." The Gestapo was the instrument of Hitler, Goring, Himmler, and the rest. The above sentence may give the impression that the Gestapo worked independently of orders from Hitler or other high-ranking Nazis working at the direction of Hitler. Hitler ordered the purge, Hitler targeted specific individuals during the purge. Even if not every murder can be directly traced back to Hitler, the purge only targeted those who were seen as having opposed, or actively opposing Hitler.-- Mcattell 15:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
This sentence: "In contrast to other purges, the Night of the Long Knives did not focus on suppressing the Communists or Social Democrats, the Nazis' primary foes from the left" is redundant and shouldn't be used in the opening, since the opening paragraph states it in more general terms.
"Chancellor Adolf Hitler" This titel is uncommon.
I have removed this section, as it is adequatey covered in the disambiguation page. The two artist albums have little in common with the actual events discussed in the article. If anybody object, please don't hesitate to contact me on my talk page. Kareeser| Talk! 06:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the asinine section again. I realize fan-cruft accumulates on Wikipedia, but it is completely inappropriate for this article. – Joke 20:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Several of the paragraphs are paraphrases of each other. for example:
Hitler dominated Germany's government by 1934 but still feared losing power in a coup d'état. To maintain complete control, he allowed political infighting to continue among his subordinates. As a result, a political struggle grew, with Hermann Göring, Joseph Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler, and Reinhard Heydrich on one side and Ernst Röhm, the leader of the SA, on the other. The German Army and the SA were the only contenders to threaten Hitler's power.
By 1934 Adolf Hitler appeared to have complete control over Germany, but like most dictators, he constantly feared that he might be ousted by others who wanted his power. To protect himself from a possible coup, Hitler used the tactic of divide and rule and encouraged other leaders such as Hermann Goering, Joseph Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler and Ernst Roehm to compete with each other for senior positions.
David Cheater 00:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Under Background, fourth paragraph, sentence two:
However, Röhm was a gay man which did not help his political situation; he was one of the first members of the Nazi Party and had participated in the Beer Hall Putsch.
Could this be replaced with:
However, Röhm was a homosexual man--which did not help his political situation--and was one of the first members of the Nazi Party who had participated in the Beer Hall Putsch.
Ajl772 17:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, there seems to be switching between "gay", "homosexual", and "lesbian".
Fifth paragraph, last sentences:
Men, in particularly, who were identified as gay were forced to wear a pink triagle. Lesbians more often detected attention but when found out they too faced some of the same treatment as gay men. Despite the fall of Nazi Germany; paragraph 175 remained part of German Law until the 1960s when this law was deleted and it again became legal to be a gay person as well as under the European Common Market rules marry with full benefits. It has been estimated that as many as 700,000 gay men and women were sent to Concentration Camps--most of which were murdered there.
Ajl772 17:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
As to the blockquote directly above, I do not see what the problem is. Gay is a term that includes both gay men and lesbians, as it is being used there: "a gay person". It should, of course, be made clear when it's not obvious whether a passage refers to "gay people" in general or "gay men" specifically. As to the first question, to use "gay" or "homosexual", I think we should err toward "gay". "Homosexual" is primarily a clinical term not widely used today. — coelacan talk — 12:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
It is not the job of the English-speaking Wikipedia to coin German words for an event in Germany.
In introducing a number of senior Nazis, a learned Wikipedian wrote:
Clearly the author of this sentence is very familiar with German-language titles of rank in Nazi Germany. Nonetheless, this article (in English Wikipedia) is designed for a readership of English-speaking laypersons. To include titles such as "RSHA Obergruppenführer" makes it hard to understand the sentence and exactly who these people were. Telling the reader that Heydrich was Himmler's deputy in the SS is more concise and easier to understand than saying he is a "RSHA Obergruppenführer." Also, including the formal titles makes the sentence unwieldy and hard to understand.
Again, I appreciate the writer's efforts, but for the above reasons I suggest the historical persons above be described in more clearly in English.-- Mcattell 00:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Also, Hermann Göring not a reichsmarschall at the time of this event; instead he was Minister-President of Prussia.-- Mcattell 16:59, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
There should be mention of those non-SA figures that were killed - ex-Chancellor von Schleicher and his wife, ex-Bavarian Premier von Kahr even the music teacher Willi Schmidt mistaken for the local SA leader Wilhelm Schmidt.
Removed questions and discussions from article. - Patrick 09:35 May 1, 2003 (UTC).
Previous version of the text parts:
The purge was the result of the political struggle between the Nazi leaders subordinate to Hitler - Hermann Göring, Joseph Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich and Ernst Röhm, the leader of the SA. Hitler encouraged political infighting amongst his subordinates, and the power of Röhm and his violent organization scared his rivals. Himmler had evidence manufactured to defame Röhm and presented it to Hitler. //source?//
While Hitler had been personally rather fond of Röhm he was under pressure to reduce his influence. German military leaders were unhappy with the proposal of Röhm that the German army be absorbed into the larger SA, and the industrialists that supported Hitler were concerned over Röhm's socialist leanings. Members of the Nazi party also viewed Röhm and some other SA leaders with distaste because they were homosexuals. //sources for all this???//
With all these groups arrayed against Röhm, Hitler decided to act. //According to...//, he ordered all the SA leaders to attend a meeting at the Hanselbauer Hotel in Wiesse, near Munich. On June 29 Hitler arrived with a strong SS force; he was present as Röhm was arrested, and in the following hours other SA leaders were also arrested, and many of these, //including/for instance LIST NAMES // were shot out of hand. Apparently Hitler intended to pardon Röhm, but eventually decided to have him die. It is believed that Röhm was offered a chance of suicide but was eventually shot.
Hitler announced the purge on 13 July, claiming 61 had been executed and 13 shot while resisting arrest. "I become the supreme judge of the German people. I gave the order to shoot the ringleaders". //source???//
\\"I become the supreme judge of the German people--this does not sound like an accurate translation. "I have become" -- perhaps. "I became" --perhaps. But not "I become". The truth is, that since we are not restricted by size/pages/paper, there's not reason every direct quote should not be in the original AND translation, with a cite to the source of the original. This supposed quote is an example.//
..it should be mentioned that not only SA members have been killed but also some SA-unrelated opponents of AH
What is the history of the name, does it reference any work of literature? When was the purge first called Night of the Long Knives? -- 130.161.31.140 30 June 2005 13:06 (UTC)
As detailed quite nicely at [ [1]] and contrary to popular belief, Hitler was not elected.
Here's my thumbnail summary of the info on the above-referenced page:
Sept. 1930: Reichstag elections, Nazis win 18.3% of seats, becoming second largest party in Germany.
1931: Chancellor Heinrich Bruning attempts to negotiate with Hitler in hopes of convincing Hitler to agree to an extension of President Hindenburg's term, and avoid an election in 1932. Hitler declines.
1932: Presidential election, Hitler comes in second in both rounds, receiving 35% in the second round.
Hindenburg dismisses Bruning as Chancellor and appoints Franz von Papen, who immediately calls for new Reichstag elections.
July 1932: Reichstag elections, Nazis win 230 seats, becoming the largest party in the Reichstag.
Reichstag votes no-confidence (by 84%) in the government, Reichstag dissolved, new elections called.
November 1932: Nazis lose seats but remain largest party in the Reichstag; Hindenburg dismisses Papen in favor of Kurt von Schleicher to try his hand at forming a stable coalition in the Reichstag. Schleicher fails, and Papen (along with a coalition of German businessmen, see [ [2]]) convinces Hindenburg to appoint Hitler as Chancellor.
So, Hitler himself was never elected to office, but was appointed Chancellor.
63.206.91.183 08:59, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure that Reichsmordwoche should be translated as "Imperial Week of Murder." Reich can also mean realm, or more colloquially the German state itself. It appears that the translation was added by an anonymous user [3], and it really feels like the work of Google and whatnot. It was originally added by WHEELER back in 2004 [4]; I'd ask him for a source but I think that he has left the project. I'm loath to translate it at all–German compound nouns really lose something auf Englisch. I'm removing the translation for the moment. Ideas? Mackensen (talk) 22:19, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
This:
The Night of the Long Knives, also known as Reichsmordwoche or "the Blood Purge" (German, Nacht der langen Messer)
- is a bit of a mess, mostly because it separates "The Night of the Long Knives" from "(German, Nacht der langen Messer)", which since it's a translation should be right by it so that it's clear to the reader what means what. Having it two more terms apart is confusing. I am about to put that right, so it will say:
The Night of the Long Knives (German, Nacht der langen Messer), also known as Reichsmordwoche or "the Blood Purge"
- that's a bit better, but it's still messy because it still looks to the casual reader as if "Reichsmordwoche" and "the Blood Purge" could be equivalents/translations, and, unless my German has deserted me, they are not. Perhaps someone else would like a go at this? 138.37.188.109 10:20, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC) I have some problems with this sentence in the opening paragraph:
First, while many SA by 1934 were angry that the Nazi regime did not do more to put socialism into practice, it is wrong to say that some SA "were associated more with socialism than nationalism," as the above writer states. They were all ferocious German nationalists. To say that some "were associated more with socialism than nationalism" draws a false dichotomy between the two. Second, while many in the army supported Hitler's rise to power, it is wrong to say that "the army...supported Hitler's rise to power." It's just too simplistic to put it that way. The army and its leaders despised and feared communism. They were sympathetic to conservative parties in general. But many in the old Prussian elite looked at Nazism with distaste, and only supported it in end, as Hindenburg did, as a way of combating the communist menace. Third, I don't agree with "During this event, however, the Gestapo also targeted conservative rivals and elements within and outside the regime." The Gestapo was the instrument of Hitler, Goring, Himmler, and the rest. The above sentence may give the impression that the Gestapo worked independently of orders from Hitler or other high-ranking Nazis working at the direction of Hitler. Hitler ordered the purge, Hitler targeted specific individuals during the purge. Even if not every murder can be directly traced back to Hitler, the purge only targeted those who were seen as having opposed, or actively opposing Hitler.-- Mcattell 15:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
This sentence: "In contrast to other purges, the Night of the Long Knives did not focus on suppressing the Communists or Social Democrats, the Nazis' primary foes from the left" is redundant and shouldn't be used in the opening, since the opening paragraph states it in more general terms.
"Chancellor Adolf Hitler" This titel is uncommon.
I have removed this section, as it is adequatey covered in the disambiguation page. The two artist albums have little in common with the actual events discussed in the article. If anybody object, please don't hesitate to contact me on my talk page. Kareeser| Talk! 06:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the asinine section again. I realize fan-cruft accumulates on Wikipedia, but it is completely inappropriate for this article. – Joke 20:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Several of the paragraphs are paraphrases of each other. for example:
Hitler dominated Germany's government by 1934 but still feared losing power in a coup d'état. To maintain complete control, he allowed political infighting to continue among his subordinates. As a result, a political struggle grew, with Hermann Göring, Joseph Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler, and Reinhard Heydrich on one side and Ernst Röhm, the leader of the SA, on the other. The German Army and the SA were the only contenders to threaten Hitler's power.
By 1934 Adolf Hitler appeared to have complete control over Germany, but like most dictators, he constantly feared that he might be ousted by others who wanted his power. To protect himself from a possible coup, Hitler used the tactic of divide and rule and encouraged other leaders such as Hermann Goering, Joseph Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler and Ernst Roehm to compete with each other for senior positions.
David Cheater 00:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Under Background, fourth paragraph, sentence two:
However, Röhm was a gay man which did not help his political situation; he was one of the first members of the Nazi Party and had participated in the Beer Hall Putsch.
Could this be replaced with:
However, Röhm was a homosexual man--which did not help his political situation--and was one of the first members of the Nazi Party who had participated in the Beer Hall Putsch.
Ajl772 17:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, there seems to be switching between "gay", "homosexual", and "lesbian".
Fifth paragraph, last sentences:
Men, in particularly, who were identified as gay were forced to wear a pink triagle. Lesbians more often detected attention but when found out they too faced some of the same treatment as gay men. Despite the fall of Nazi Germany; paragraph 175 remained part of German Law until the 1960s when this law was deleted and it again became legal to be a gay person as well as under the European Common Market rules marry with full benefits. It has been estimated that as many as 700,000 gay men and women were sent to Concentration Camps--most of which were murdered there.
Ajl772 17:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
As to the blockquote directly above, I do not see what the problem is. Gay is a term that includes both gay men and lesbians, as it is being used there: "a gay person". It should, of course, be made clear when it's not obvious whether a passage refers to "gay people" in general or "gay men" specifically. As to the first question, to use "gay" or "homosexual", I think we should err toward "gay". "Homosexual" is primarily a clinical term not widely used today. — coelacan talk — 12:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
It is not the job of the English-speaking Wikipedia to coin German words for an event in Germany.
In introducing a number of senior Nazis, a learned Wikipedian wrote:
Clearly the author of this sentence is very familiar with German-language titles of rank in Nazi Germany. Nonetheless, this article (in English Wikipedia) is designed for a readership of English-speaking laypersons. To include titles such as "RSHA Obergruppenführer" makes it hard to understand the sentence and exactly who these people were. Telling the reader that Heydrich was Himmler's deputy in the SS is more concise and easier to understand than saying he is a "RSHA Obergruppenführer." Also, including the formal titles makes the sentence unwieldy and hard to understand.
Again, I appreciate the writer's efforts, but for the above reasons I suggest the historical persons above be described in more clearly in English.-- Mcattell 00:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Also, Hermann Göring not a reichsmarschall at the time of this event; instead he was Minister-President of Prussia.-- Mcattell 16:59, 7 July 2007 (UTC)