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The point being, it appears there is information missing in the Wikipedia entry about him that is false. Even if presented with a credible-looking birth certificate, I'm skeptical of this guy. He appears to be an extra-terrestrial good at making implied arguments. Also, as a person of whom has considered himself a Wikipedian, I am, in general, against Wikipedia entries about people themselves (I think it best such persons make a nice user page for themselves). However, if this guy is the philosopher of whom is alleged to have originally posited the computer simulation hypothesis, then I don't think it's a huge issue. It seems to me that he is an extra-terrestrial with experience on posthuman civilizations (thus arguing that #1 and #2 propositions are true of his propositions for a computer simulation) of whom is claiming the following: "We are living in a simulation which has been generated by our [probably not *his,* though] descendants for their own creation in the future." It might also be interpreted that he is an alien of whom is able to generate a signal that manages to get into isolated dimensions via a randomization process to inform persons, "If you're reading this right now, and there is no one or evidence to the contrary, despite the relative nature of space-time and reality to inform you otherwise, then I'd like to inform you that you're in a computer simulation right now." - Dennis Francis Blewett (January 26th, 2022)
Should the article be moved to Nick Boström? Nick is Swedish (unless he has changed citizenship lately) and that is his correct name. On the other hand, he himself uses "Bostrom" in the English-speaking world. — Naddy 01:42, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A quick Google showing only Swedish pages would indicate that he's called Nick Boström, but usually calls himself Bostrom. I might also note that Bostrom is pronounced entirely differently than Boström.
Tubba Blubba (
talk)
03:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
A pdf available here - http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jun08/6272 - says that Nick had a short career as a stand-up comedian, which seems an unusual choice for a rapture-style transhumanist and a swede. Can the comedian information be confirmed? If so, it must be put into the article. Strangerstome ( talk) 07:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Guardians of the Apocalypse; The tech-nerd legion bent on saving humanity from asteroids, contagions, and robot revolutions December 15, 2011, 4:30 PM EST by Ashlee Vance in BusinessWeek, excerpt "Professor Nick Bostrom ranks various threats to mankind (Illustrations by QuickHoney)"
99.19.46.105 ( talk) 11:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Firstly, this section should be named Simulation Argument as the simulation hypothesis refers only to the concept of the world as simulation, an idea not original to Bostrom. The important contribution by Bostrom is the argument resulting in his trilemma. Secondly, the statement "Because H will be such a large value, at least one of the three proximations will be true" is incorrect, as should be obvious to anyone glancing at the formula given above. H cancels from the formula and is thus irrelevant, permitting the statement of the trilemma. Also, the three propositions are not completely correct, they are stated in terms of absolutes, something the argument itself avoids because it cannot make such strong statements, it deals in averages not absolutes. Randomnonsense ( talk) 22:42, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Hah! Just noticed someone else edited the article to express their bafflement at "Because H will be such a large value, at least one of the three proximations will be true". Reading the description of the argument carefully I feel it would benefit from being entirely rewritten in a more compact and faithful way (to the original paper). For instance, why are the propositions not given as Bostrom himself gives them in his paper? The same for the definitions of fp, N, H and fsim. The commentary on the history of the hypothesis seems irrelevant when the article could simply point to the Simulation hypothesis article instead, it is after all an article on Bostrom not the history of the simulation hypothesis. It would also be nice to briefly mention the basis of his argument for empirical reasons to believe in the simulation hypothesis i.e. information content of human sensory perception and technological projections. Any update should also mention his recent paper on a bug in the argument, "A Patch for the Simulation Argument". The mention of the Strong Self-Sampling Assumption is also odd, considering that the argument explicitly doesn't utilize that assumption, as is evident from the formula used to derive the trilemma (H is the number of people not the number of observer moments). Randomnonsense ( talk) 00:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
I have some issues with the "eventual fate" section: first, it seems rather odd to have claims about future biographical information in an article. Second, and more seriously, the information is slightly incorrect - there was some errors in the Sunday Times article that triggered the information cascade the Oxford Today article is part of. Nick has actually *not* confirmed that he is signed up. Of course, by now there will be plenty of articles making the claim based on the original article, so it will look like a confirmed fact when it isn't. I suggest that we remove the eventual fate section, but I do have some misgivings that the claim will reappear. Anders Sandberg ( talk) 07:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
The television section feels a bit odd; Nick is on TV fairly often as a public intellectual - those examples are just a scattered handful. Anders Sandberg ( talk) 17:40, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
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Recently User:Apollo The Logician removed Category:Futurologists from the article, saying "Not a futurologist".
I contest this removal in that I'm relatively sure that Nick Bostrom can, should and is considered a futurologist. See the definition at futurologist: "futurists or futurologists are scientists and social scientists whose specialty is futurology or the attempt to systematically explore predictions and possibilities about the future and how they can emerge from the present, whether that of human society in particular or of life on Earth in general."
That's exactly what Bostrom is doing in most of his studies.
Maybe "futurologist" has a bad connotation for some users here? It doesn't have to and that's no reason to not add it.
He's also been called a futurologist by multiple sources: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [...]
Also of relevance here: List of futurologists.
-- Fixuture ( talk) 13:34, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
This article seems to contain a quite a bit of OR and self sourcing. Please cite from RS before reverting. Thanks. Inlinetext ( talk) 19:06, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Apollo The Logician: re: BLP and OR doesnt apply to primary sources and Primary sources are considered reliable sources, could you point me to the 'basis' on this, or set it out here ? Inlinetext ( talk) 18:30, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
The lede is cluttered with info that does not belong, cluttering up the article. The lede should be emphasising the reason that Bostrom has his own page and be intriguing enough to make readers would want to read through the main body of the article That reason is his AI concerns and his main arguments from the AI book should be touched on. Critical responses should also be mentioned. Refs should not be in the lede anyway. Overagainst ( talk) 15:36, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
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Musk merely said Borstom's book Super intelligence is "worth reading". Musk has warned about one country's advanced strategically programmed computer starting a nuclear world war three in a preempting attempt to prevent the state it is part of the defences for from being defeated, but he has never ever mentioned the possibility of AI deciding that its own very particular interests are best served by killing off all humanity, which is the main concern that Bostrom is raising. Eliezer Yudkowsky sketched a scenario for how an artificial intelligence could fulfill the worst fears of Borstom.
Musk's thinking is not similar to Bostom's at all. And he is spreading open source AI all over the globe, which does not sound like someone worried about a scenario in which AI bootstraps itself into a undercover Supeintelligence with only one logical move left; a three act play in which humans disappear during the second act. Overagainst ( talk) 20:24, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I see problems with the body.
1 - too much writing on superintelligence. It's fine to give it much more weight than the other topics, in accordance with its greater notability. But right now it is just a thick summary of his book with some disparate excerpts and ideas. Also, there is too much attention given to certain aspects of the book, like way too much info on the illustrative scenario, which is only a small part of his book. The article needs to zoom out and look at his research/career as a whole, in context of other researchers and ideas. Right now it is too zoomed in, extracting lots of details from his writing.
2 - organization is off, lots of things are listed under "Superintelligence" even though they are different topics. The little "Philosophy" section only has x-risk even though x-risk is not really philosophy at all.
3 - I don't like some of the writing, I think it could do with some copyediting. Should have less jargon and technical concepts, less examples and quotes from the book, more generality and more clarification of exactly what makes his ideas different and notable compared to other ideas.
I thought I had watchlisted this page, maybe I was just busy when all these edits are made. I see User:Overagainst contributed a lot here and I was not paying attention before it was all completed. Well I intend to change it up but I'm posting here first in case anyone has anything to say. K. Bog 05:50, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
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@ Kbog: There are plenty of primary sources associating Bostrom with the analytic tradition. For example, his homepage and CV mention it, and his old homepage was even analytic.org: "Nick Bostrom's thinking in analytic philosophy"! As for secondary sources: [14], [15], [16]. GojiBarry ( talk) 02:06, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I believe it is important that this page clearly articulates the full extent of Nick Bostrom's bigoted and racist views, which he himself took the pains to highlight publicly, due to how incredibly racist and anti-Black they were. The only appropriate measure in such an instance is to fully quote the relevant material, which is itself the only reason this e-mail is considered a notable event. The full quote, to be clear, is "I hate those bloody niggers!!!!" The four exclamation marks are Nick Bostrom's choice, not mine.
While it is clear that Nick Bostrom did not intend to plainly state that he "[hates] those bloody niggers," he clearly did not find it problematic to write out such an offensive statement, even as an example, and he paired such an offensive statement with his very clearly articulated view that Black people are "more stupid" than white people. The intended meaning and unequivocally racist sentiments in this context are clear to any decent person and should not be whitewashed to protect Nick Bostrom's reputation, which is not the job of Wikipedia or anyone else. Anybody who is interested in learning more about Nick Bostrom should be free to read and understand why this e-mail in particular was so noteworthy that Nick Bostrom himself took pains to "pre-emptively" surface it and why its contents were covered in national (if not international) news outlets. The reason is, plainly, because Nick Bostrom wrote "I hate those bloody niggers!!!!" and felt no qualms about doing so. This should not be minimized or whitewashed, it should be openly and plainly stated for everyone to know what his views on acceptable conduct were/are. 2A02:A03F:8095:4100:FD6E:9F5D:10DB:CFB6 ( talk) 20:52, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
A much briefer mention in the lead may be warranted, especially if coverage of the controversy continues.We need to be wary of WP:SENSATION, but also to remember that Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED. I'd be more than happy to work with you on improving the language and presentation, but please keep all this in mind. Cheers, Generalrelative ( talk) 16:22, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedians, thanks for all the comments here. I see some have edited without discussion. I will take account of the discussion so far and edit now too. The situation is ongoing so perhaps we can leave it at this for now? If not, please discuss here for consensus before making more edits as that is more practicable that reading through all the separate edits.
Bostrom is clearly a figure of world renown in one way or another. His racist remarks deserve a reference in the lead, my feeling is that most agree here to a greater or lesser extent, but I agree that we should not overstate the case since the episode is still running. My own sense, for info, is that the investigation, which is important enough to be in the lead for now, seems unlikely to be disatrous for Bostrom or it would have concluded already. Depending on how the epidisode concludes, reference might be justifiably removed at that point. It is important to bear in mind in all of this that Bostrom works in an area which will almost inevitably touch on matters which are controversial from time to time. He has yet to respond fully (we may reasonably presume he is waiting for the outcome of the investigation). His email of 1996 understandably remains notable for some editors (including me) since it appears to reveal values which might be present in his present work and they were, in any case, certainly contentious in 1996. His 2023 statement is unequestionably important at present because of what it reveals of his more recent thoughts (he may well have changed them since Jan 2023 since previously it seems they were not likely at the centre of this thinking while they will be now. Again, depending on his eventual response we might decide that this justifies removal from the lead and better contextualisation in the main body).
I have taken account of all the policies mentioned above by other editors in all my edits; they are elementary and quite foundational policies. I think what disagreement exists orients around how those policies should be applied in this case rather than around errors in the application. I do mention one policy below, but that is not intended as an exhaustive statement about policies, obv.
My edits: In the lead, I have inserted a reference to the Oxford University investigation, which is significant (and salient in view of the Oxford-related content of the main body) and ongoing. I suggest here that this might be removed depending on the outcome of the investigation. In the main body, I have removed "controversy" from "Racist email controversy" sub-title as it is uncecessary since Bostrom has acknowledged the original statement's racist nature. I have asterisked the n-word on the basis that its full use here is unecessary and repeats what Bostrom himself did in his own 2023 apology (which is regarded by some editors, including me, as contentious). I have removed the Anders Sandberg Twitter quote as it does not comply with WP:Verifiablity (e.g. it is a tweet about a third party): In addition, at least one critical quote has previously been edited out. It seems better to have neither rather than both. I have removed the second half of the first paragraph from "Bostrom" to "question". The passage amounts to a subjective contexualisation so the alternative to removal would be to include arguments in the public domain which critique that argument; this seems to me to introduce an unecessary element of discourse into a WP:BLP at at time when the episode presumably has an end-date (shortly after the Oxford investigation reports?) but has not yet concluded. In addition, the main body reference already seems unwieldy in view of the fact it will likely have to be amended soon. All the best, Emmentalist ( talk) 19:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
A little more context from the email is warranted. I suggest:
The two additions help convey meaning that isn't clear in the current version: He knew that the statement was "counterintuitive and repugnant", but also believed, in the moment (mistakenly with respect to his own views at the time, according to his apology), that he was being "uncompromisingly objective" and that the statement was "logically correct". Imsecretguy ( talk) 20:06, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
References
In Bostrom work Existential Risks:Analyzing Human Extinction Scenarios and Related Hazards, sectiom 5.3 “ Dysgenic” pressures, he discusses"enhancements" and " genetic engineering". I wonder if someone interested in colabrating in summarising his views and book about this, and Posthuman in general. Here a list of article that we can start with: Embryo Selection for Cognitive Enhancement, , In Defense of Posthuman Dignity, Human Enhancement Ethics: The State of the Debate, Human Genetic Enhancements: A Transhumanist Perspective, Ethical Issues in Human Enhancement, SMART POLICY, Why I Want to be a Posthuman When I Grow Up, Cognitive Enhancement: Methods, Ethics, Regulatory Challenges, The Reversal Test: Eliminating Status Quo Bias in Applied Ethics = all of these formed his book on Human Enhancement (not Human enhancement) .. FuzzyMagma ( talk) 15:43, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
Another user has removed this from the lede (twice). Maybe we can build some consensus about whether this should be in the lede or not. I think it's a big deal, for reasons explained at length above...but curious to hear other opinions. Prezbo ( talk) 02:46, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
I think it's mainly due to povertyMainstream science agrees with you. See Race and intelligence, especially the sections "Education" and "Socioeconomic environment". -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 14:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
The section on superintelligence probably needs to be restructured. Notably because it focuses too much on illustrative scenarios. The risks scenarios are pretty anecdotal, they are just examples amongst others of how things could surprisingly go wrong. Here they are too detailed and speculative. We could instead briefly present the paperclip maximizer, which is popular, purposefully unrealistic (it's just a thought experiment) and illustrates well instrumental convergence and the orthogonality thesis. And the possibility of an intelligence explosion is just one risk factor, it is not necessary for a catastrophe. Moreover, Bostrom doesn't seem central to the "23 principles of A.I. safety", whereas there are a lot of concepts that he discovered and that deserve more attention in this article.
In my opinion, this section should roughly follow the structure of the book Superintelligence: Paths, Dangers, Strategies. First, it should explain why superintelligence seems possible. Then, what kinds of properties it would have, how not to anthropomorphize it. Then, why it's risky (intelligence explosion, instrumental convergence...), and what's the benefits. Then, how we could try to make it safe. And finally, Bostrom's overall strategic picture as he sees it. Of course, this could use recent articles if he updated his views since 2014. Sorry to propose that after you took so much time to improve this section, @ FeralOink.
What do you think ? Alenoach ( talk) 09:35, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
The 1996 email controversy has been addressed and come to a conclusion. I propose that we delete the 1996 email controversy because of this. (also im new to wikipedia so if this is short thats why) 65.92.163.175 ( talk) 21:37, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
In reference to [17] Not that I think Bostrom is lying, but the article should make clear that this quote is coming from Bostrom’s website. He says that it’s the result of Oxford’s investigation but we have no independent evidence of this. Evidently Oxford sent Bostrom an email/letter with this statement but chose not to make any kind of public announcement. Prezbo ( talk) 04:25, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
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The point being, it appears there is information missing in the Wikipedia entry about him that is false. Even if presented with a credible-looking birth certificate, I'm skeptical of this guy. He appears to be an extra-terrestrial good at making implied arguments. Also, as a person of whom has considered himself a Wikipedian, I am, in general, against Wikipedia entries about people themselves (I think it best such persons make a nice user page for themselves). However, if this guy is the philosopher of whom is alleged to have originally posited the computer simulation hypothesis, then I don't think it's a huge issue. It seems to me that he is an extra-terrestrial with experience on posthuman civilizations (thus arguing that #1 and #2 propositions are true of his propositions for a computer simulation) of whom is claiming the following: "We are living in a simulation which has been generated by our [probably not *his,* though] descendants for their own creation in the future." It might also be interpreted that he is an alien of whom is able to generate a signal that manages to get into isolated dimensions via a randomization process to inform persons, "If you're reading this right now, and there is no one or evidence to the contrary, despite the relative nature of space-time and reality to inform you otherwise, then I'd like to inform you that you're in a computer simulation right now." - Dennis Francis Blewett (January 26th, 2022)
Should the article be moved to Nick Boström? Nick is Swedish (unless he has changed citizenship lately) and that is his correct name. On the other hand, he himself uses "Bostrom" in the English-speaking world. — Naddy 01:42, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A quick Google showing only Swedish pages would indicate that he's called Nick Boström, but usually calls himself Bostrom. I might also note that Bostrom is pronounced entirely differently than Boström.
Tubba Blubba (
talk)
03:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
A pdf available here - http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jun08/6272 - says that Nick had a short career as a stand-up comedian, which seems an unusual choice for a rapture-style transhumanist and a swede. Can the comedian information be confirmed? If so, it must be put into the article. Strangerstome ( talk) 07:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Guardians of the Apocalypse; The tech-nerd legion bent on saving humanity from asteroids, contagions, and robot revolutions December 15, 2011, 4:30 PM EST by Ashlee Vance in BusinessWeek, excerpt "Professor Nick Bostrom ranks various threats to mankind (Illustrations by QuickHoney)"
99.19.46.105 ( talk) 11:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Firstly, this section should be named Simulation Argument as the simulation hypothesis refers only to the concept of the world as simulation, an idea not original to Bostrom. The important contribution by Bostrom is the argument resulting in his trilemma. Secondly, the statement "Because H will be such a large value, at least one of the three proximations will be true" is incorrect, as should be obvious to anyone glancing at the formula given above. H cancels from the formula and is thus irrelevant, permitting the statement of the trilemma. Also, the three propositions are not completely correct, they are stated in terms of absolutes, something the argument itself avoids because it cannot make such strong statements, it deals in averages not absolutes. Randomnonsense ( talk) 22:42, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Hah! Just noticed someone else edited the article to express their bafflement at "Because H will be such a large value, at least one of the three proximations will be true". Reading the description of the argument carefully I feel it would benefit from being entirely rewritten in a more compact and faithful way (to the original paper). For instance, why are the propositions not given as Bostrom himself gives them in his paper? The same for the definitions of fp, N, H and fsim. The commentary on the history of the hypothesis seems irrelevant when the article could simply point to the Simulation hypothesis article instead, it is after all an article on Bostrom not the history of the simulation hypothesis. It would also be nice to briefly mention the basis of his argument for empirical reasons to believe in the simulation hypothesis i.e. information content of human sensory perception and technological projections. Any update should also mention his recent paper on a bug in the argument, "A Patch for the Simulation Argument". The mention of the Strong Self-Sampling Assumption is also odd, considering that the argument explicitly doesn't utilize that assumption, as is evident from the formula used to derive the trilemma (H is the number of people not the number of observer moments). Randomnonsense ( talk) 00:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
I have some issues with the "eventual fate" section: first, it seems rather odd to have claims about future biographical information in an article. Second, and more seriously, the information is slightly incorrect - there was some errors in the Sunday Times article that triggered the information cascade the Oxford Today article is part of. Nick has actually *not* confirmed that he is signed up. Of course, by now there will be plenty of articles making the claim based on the original article, so it will look like a confirmed fact when it isn't. I suggest that we remove the eventual fate section, but I do have some misgivings that the claim will reappear. Anders Sandberg ( talk) 07:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
The television section feels a bit odd; Nick is on TV fairly often as a public intellectual - those examples are just a scattered handful. Anders Sandberg ( talk) 17:40, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
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Recently User:Apollo The Logician removed Category:Futurologists from the article, saying "Not a futurologist".
I contest this removal in that I'm relatively sure that Nick Bostrom can, should and is considered a futurologist. See the definition at futurologist: "futurists or futurologists are scientists and social scientists whose specialty is futurology or the attempt to systematically explore predictions and possibilities about the future and how they can emerge from the present, whether that of human society in particular or of life on Earth in general."
That's exactly what Bostrom is doing in most of his studies.
Maybe "futurologist" has a bad connotation for some users here? It doesn't have to and that's no reason to not add it.
He's also been called a futurologist by multiple sources: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [...]
Also of relevance here: List of futurologists.
-- Fixuture ( talk) 13:34, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
This article seems to contain a quite a bit of OR and self sourcing. Please cite from RS before reverting. Thanks. Inlinetext ( talk) 19:06, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Apollo The Logician: re: BLP and OR doesnt apply to primary sources and Primary sources are considered reliable sources, could you point me to the 'basis' on this, or set it out here ? Inlinetext ( talk) 18:30, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
The lede is cluttered with info that does not belong, cluttering up the article. The lede should be emphasising the reason that Bostrom has his own page and be intriguing enough to make readers would want to read through the main body of the article That reason is his AI concerns and his main arguments from the AI book should be touched on. Critical responses should also be mentioned. Refs should not be in the lede anyway. Overagainst ( talk) 15:36, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
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Musk merely said Borstom's book Super intelligence is "worth reading". Musk has warned about one country's advanced strategically programmed computer starting a nuclear world war three in a preempting attempt to prevent the state it is part of the defences for from being defeated, but he has never ever mentioned the possibility of AI deciding that its own very particular interests are best served by killing off all humanity, which is the main concern that Bostrom is raising. Eliezer Yudkowsky sketched a scenario for how an artificial intelligence could fulfill the worst fears of Borstom.
Musk's thinking is not similar to Bostom's at all. And he is spreading open source AI all over the globe, which does not sound like someone worried about a scenario in which AI bootstraps itself into a undercover Supeintelligence with only one logical move left; a three act play in which humans disappear during the second act. Overagainst ( talk) 20:24, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I see problems with the body.
1 - too much writing on superintelligence. It's fine to give it much more weight than the other topics, in accordance with its greater notability. But right now it is just a thick summary of his book with some disparate excerpts and ideas. Also, there is too much attention given to certain aspects of the book, like way too much info on the illustrative scenario, which is only a small part of his book. The article needs to zoom out and look at his research/career as a whole, in context of other researchers and ideas. Right now it is too zoomed in, extracting lots of details from his writing.
2 - organization is off, lots of things are listed under "Superintelligence" even though they are different topics. The little "Philosophy" section only has x-risk even though x-risk is not really philosophy at all.
3 - I don't like some of the writing, I think it could do with some copyediting. Should have less jargon and technical concepts, less examples and quotes from the book, more generality and more clarification of exactly what makes his ideas different and notable compared to other ideas.
I thought I had watchlisted this page, maybe I was just busy when all these edits are made. I see User:Overagainst contributed a lot here and I was not paying attention before it was all completed. Well I intend to change it up but I'm posting here first in case anyone has anything to say. K. Bog 05:50, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:55, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
@ Kbog: There are plenty of primary sources associating Bostrom with the analytic tradition. For example, his homepage and CV mention it, and his old homepage was even analytic.org: "Nick Bostrom's thinking in analytic philosophy"! As for secondary sources: [14], [15], [16]. GojiBarry ( talk) 02:06, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I believe it is important that this page clearly articulates the full extent of Nick Bostrom's bigoted and racist views, which he himself took the pains to highlight publicly, due to how incredibly racist and anti-Black they were. The only appropriate measure in such an instance is to fully quote the relevant material, which is itself the only reason this e-mail is considered a notable event. The full quote, to be clear, is "I hate those bloody niggers!!!!" The four exclamation marks are Nick Bostrom's choice, not mine.
While it is clear that Nick Bostrom did not intend to plainly state that he "[hates] those bloody niggers," he clearly did not find it problematic to write out such an offensive statement, even as an example, and he paired such an offensive statement with his very clearly articulated view that Black people are "more stupid" than white people. The intended meaning and unequivocally racist sentiments in this context are clear to any decent person and should not be whitewashed to protect Nick Bostrom's reputation, which is not the job of Wikipedia or anyone else. Anybody who is interested in learning more about Nick Bostrom should be free to read and understand why this e-mail in particular was so noteworthy that Nick Bostrom himself took pains to "pre-emptively" surface it and why its contents were covered in national (if not international) news outlets. The reason is, plainly, because Nick Bostrom wrote "I hate those bloody niggers!!!!" and felt no qualms about doing so. This should not be minimized or whitewashed, it should be openly and plainly stated for everyone to know what his views on acceptable conduct were/are. 2A02:A03F:8095:4100:FD6E:9F5D:10DB:CFB6 ( talk) 20:52, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
A much briefer mention in the lead may be warranted, especially if coverage of the controversy continues.We need to be wary of WP:SENSATION, but also to remember that Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED. I'd be more than happy to work with you on improving the language and presentation, but please keep all this in mind. Cheers, Generalrelative ( talk) 16:22, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedians, thanks for all the comments here. I see some have edited without discussion. I will take account of the discussion so far and edit now too. The situation is ongoing so perhaps we can leave it at this for now? If not, please discuss here for consensus before making more edits as that is more practicable that reading through all the separate edits.
Bostrom is clearly a figure of world renown in one way or another. His racist remarks deserve a reference in the lead, my feeling is that most agree here to a greater or lesser extent, but I agree that we should not overstate the case since the episode is still running. My own sense, for info, is that the investigation, which is important enough to be in the lead for now, seems unlikely to be disatrous for Bostrom or it would have concluded already. Depending on how the epidisode concludes, reference might be justifiably removed at that point. It is important to bear in mind in all of this that Bostrom works in an area which will almost inevitably touch on matters which are controversial from time to time. He has yet to respond fully (we may reasonably presume he is waiting for the outcome of the investigation). His email of 1996 understandably remains notable for some editors (including me) since it appears to reveal values which might be present in his present work and they were, in any case, certainly contentious in 1996. His 2023 statement is unequestionably important at present because of what it reveals of his more recent thoughts (he may well have changed them since Jan 2023 since previously it seems they were not likely at the centre of this thinking while they will be now. Again, depending on his eventual response we might decide that this justifies removal from the lead and better contextualisation in the main body).
I have taken account of all the policies mentioned above by other editors in all my edits; they are elementary and quite foundational policies. I think what disagreement exists orients around how those policies should be applied in this case rather than around errors in the application. I do mention one policy below, but that is not intended as an exhaustive statement about policies, obv.
My edits: In the lead, I have inserted a reference to the Oxford University investigation, which is significant (and salient in view of the Oxford-related content of the main body) and ongoing. I suggest here that this might be removed depending on the outcome of the investigation. In the main body, I have removed "controversy" from "Racist email controversy" sub-title as it is uncecessary since Bostrom has acknowledged the original statement's racist nature. I have asterisked the n-word on the basis that its full use here is unecessary and repeats what Bostrom himself did in his own 2023 apology (which is regarded by some editors, including me, as contentious). I have removed the Anders Sandberg Twitter quote as it does not comply with WP:Verifiablity (e.g. it is a tweet about a third party): In addition, at least one critical quote has previously been edited out. It seems better to have neither rather than both. I have removed the second half of the first paragraph from "Bostrom" to "question". The passage amounts to a subjective contexualisation so the alternative to removal would be to include arguments in the public domain which critique that argument; this seems to me to introduce an unecessary element of discourse into a WP:BLP at at time when the episode presumably has an end-date (shortly after the Oxford investigation reports?) but has not yet concluded. In addition, the main body reference already seems unwieldy in view of the fact it will likely have to be amended soon. All the best, Emmentalist ( talk) 19:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
A little more context from the email is warranted. I suggest:
The two additions help convey meaning that isn't clear in the current version: He knew that the statement was "counterintuitive and repugnant", but also believed, in the moment (mistakenly with respect to his own views at the time, according to his apology), that he was being "uncompromisingly objective" and that the statement was "logically correct". Imsecretguy ( talk) 20:06, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
References
In Bostrom work Existential Risks:Analyzing Human Extinction Scenarios and Related Hazards, sectiom 5.3 “ Dysgenic” pressures, he discusses"enhancements" and " genetic engineering". I wonder if someone interested in colabrating in summarising his views and book about this, and Posthuman in general. Here a list of article that we can start with: Embryo Selection for Cognitive Enhancement, , In Defense of Posthuman Dignity, Human Enhancement Ethics: The State of the Debate, Human Genetic Enhancements: A Transhumanist Perspective, Ethical Issues in Human Enhancement, SMART POLICY, Why I Want to be a Posthuman When I Grow Up, Cognitive Enhancement: Methods, Ethics, Regulatory Challenges, The Reversal Test: Eliminating Status Quo Bias in Applied Ethics = all of these formed his book on Human Enhancement (not Human enhancement) .. FuzzyMagma ( talk) 15:43, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
Another user has removed this from the lede (twice). Maybe we can build some consensus about whether this should be in the lede or not. I think it's a big deal, for reasons explained at length above...but curious to hear other opinions. Prezbo ( talk) 02:46, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
I think it's mainly due to povertyMainstream science agrees with you. See Race and intelligence, especially the sections "Education" and "Socioeconomic environment". -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 14:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
The section on superintelligence probably needs to be restructured. Notably because it focuses too much on illustrative scenarios. The risks scenarios are pretty anecdotal, they are just examples amongst others of how things could surprisingly go wrong. Here they are too detailed and speculative. We could instead briefly present the paperclip maximizer, which is popular, purposefully unrealistic (it's just a thought experiment) and illustrates well instrumental convergence and the orthogonality thesis. And the possibility of an intelligence explosion is just one risk factor, it is not necessary for a catastrophe. Moreover, Bostrom doesn't seem central to the "23 principles of A.I. safety", whereas there are a lot of concepts that he discovered and that deserve more attention in this article.
In my opinion, this section should roughly follow the structure of the book Superintelligence: Paths, Dangers, Strategies. First, it should explain why superintelligence seems possible. Then, what kinds of properties it would have, how not to anthropomorphize it. Then, why it's risky (intelligence explosion, instrumental convergence...), and what's the benefits. Then, how we could try to make it safe. And finally, Bostrom's overall strategic picture as he sees it. Of course, this could use recent articles if he updated his views since 2014. Sorry to propose that after you took so much time to improve this section, @ FeralOink.
What do you think ? Alenoach ( talk) 09:35, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
The 1996 email controversy has been addressed and come to a conclusion. I propose that we delete the 1996 email controversy because of this. (also im new to wikipedia so if this is short thats why) 65.92.163.175 ( talk) 21:37, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
In reference to [17] Not that I think Bostrom is lying, but the article should make clear that this quote is coming from Bostrom’s website. He says that it’s the result of Oxford’s investigation but we have no independent evidence of this. Evidently Oxford sent Bostrom an email/letter with this statement but chose not to make any kind of public announcement. Prezbo ( talk) 04:25, 13 February 2024 (UTC)