This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Newton Falls is a cute, quaint little town. Living there is enjoyable because it is away from the loudness of a large city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.40.79.106 ( talk • contribs) 21:42, 5 December 2004 (UTC)
Re: "Zip Day": I grew up in Windham Township, Ohio, which is about 10 miles from Newton Falls, and I've never heard of it. I can't find a source on Zip Day that doesn't ultimately refer back to Wikipedia. - SwissCelt 19:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Who has the ZIP+4 "44444+4444"?
It might be whomever rents "PO Box 4444" (if PO Box number "4444" has been rented). NO PO BOX 4444 at NF post office. 72.82.180.21 09:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
It also says we celebrate Dicker Days every year. I havent seen a Dicker Days here in years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.201.125.59 ( talk • contribs) 01:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
User:NewtonFallsLeader left the following at my talk page:
I have looked at the web page in question here and see no original content relating to Newton Falls that is current. I see lots of advertisements, links to the Weather Channel and local newspaper and CNN and other national and local sites, and announcements for events that are in some cases months out of date. I fail to see how this meets the criteria for a valid external link (see WP:EL for the policy). I welcome you and hope you can improve the article on Newton Falls (or anything else), but if all you want is to insert what many might call "link spam" then you will be reverted every time (and not just by me). Wikipedia is not a web directory or collection of links (see WP:NOT). I am posting this here too (also at the user's talk page in slightly different form) to explain why I reverted this edit. All responses are welcome (here is probably best as they are about this article). Ruhrfisch 16:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I've apologized to you for the multiple emails, behind a proxy our systems were hanging and once thought dead, I resent the email...only to find when checking my personal email that multiple copies had been sent.
Your practices of monitoring these websites are unethical and a concern Wikipedia needs to address with you, hence, I will allow them to do just that.
As for your emails, please stop emailing me. However, please feel free to use my website to look up the word "pompous" as you may want to add that to your vocab. Just because you have 1000 sites doesn't impress me, nor does it give you any right to act as you have.
Again, the Newton Falls Leader stands behind its right to be on the Newton Falls, Ohio page as it is a non-profit community based website for everyone. Simply, your opinions differ, as do your actions, from the rules of Wikipedia, which will be addressed in my complaint. 209.33.19.102 (talk) (contribs) 05:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your apology about the multiple emails - I did not and do not take offense at the multiple emails you sent to me, I was merely letting you know that there seemed to be a problem with the email system you were using. I apologize for any offense given or for appearing to be pompous - neither was my intent. I do not know what you mean by "As for your emails, please stop emailing me." as I have not sent you any emails, although I have used this talk page and your talk page and here: Wikipedia:Association of Members' Advocates/Requests/January 2007/NewtonFallsLeader. Since you are new to Wikipedia, are you perhaps confusing talk pages with email?
I assure you I have no bias against you or your website, only an interest in keeping articles in accord with Wikipedia policies and guidlelines. As an example of this, see User talk:Pikeweatherman for a similar removal of an external link for not meeting WP:EL that I was involved in. I am also not ashamed of my edits or communications with you.
Finally, here is why I deleted your link in all the detail I intend to give. I initially though a webapge for a community in Ohio with a Turks and Caicos internet country code top-level domain was a bit odd (no, .tc does not stand for Trumbull County, although that is clever). When I read it I believed it did not meet the Wikipedia external links guidleleines. All I have learned from you since only bolsters that opinion. Here are the relevant sections of WP:EL to show exactly why I now think your website is not a valid external link.
"...one should avoid:
To sum up, you should not link to what you say is your own website in any case. As I see it, your website is not a unique resource suitable for a Featured Article, and it has a large amount of ads (whatever you choose to call them), and it is not directly and symmetrically related to Newton Falls, Ohio.
I am sure if someone tried to put content on your site that did not meet its rules, you would remove it or not add it. That is what I have done here (though I claim no ownership of Wikipedia). If you do not agree, I would appreciate it if you would give similarly detailed and wikilinked citations from Wikipedia of your website's "right" to be here, as well as whatever Wikipedia policies or guidelines you believe I have violated. Otherwise I fail to see what your point is. Thanks and have a good day, Ruhrfisch 19:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Wouldn't it be great if we had devoted all this effort to improving the Newton Falls, Ohio article instead?
Your response is evidence that you acted with bias and still maintain that way...or you're not understanding what you write. I'll choose to believe the first.
Words are words, without actions they are empty, meaningless. Your actions clearly fit the definition of bias, and your words back that up.
Again, let's stop this pointless chatter and allow Wikipedia to decide if what you've done and how you've acted is within their rules or not.
Thank you - Newton Falls Leader (talk) (contribs) 04:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
PS - do I criticize you for using a user name that very few understand? Is it German? Does that belong here? This is the English version. Now, doesn't that sound silly?
So I told you why I did it when I removed it, I'm not the first to remove it, and I stand by my assertion that it is not an appropriate link. I am done talking with you unless you can cite and wikilink chapter and verse of Wikipedia policy that your edits are OK under or that I have violated. Ruhrfisch 04:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that when you state opinions they become facts, but when I state facts they become opinions?
Newton Falls Leader 209.33.19.102 (talk) (contribs) 04:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure why I am continuing this. I think it is because I see that you obviously care a lot about Newton Falls, Ohio so I hope that you will add content to the article. We can always use good editors. Take care and have fun thinking up more ways to distract me. I can always use a good laugh and your attempts at argument make me smile. Thanks, Ruhrfisch 21:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Ruhrfisch stated, “I am not sure why I am continuing this.” That makes two of us, and probably a lot more who read your responses, since it is clear to everyone (well, except you - Ruhrfisch) that justification for your actions exists only within the depths of your own mind, and who can argue with that? As for accusing me of calling you a liar, I’ve done no such thing...conversely, you are the one who makes statements and fails to back them up, I simply point them out. Am I to blame if the facts demonstate that your words do not match your actions?
Fact:
Finally, you acted with bias and fail at every attempt to show that you didn’t. You fail to provide any Wikipedia rules that agree with your opinions. Listing Wikipedia links does not an argument make. And, your attempts at trying to twist Wikipedia rules to match your imagination, your reality, your unjustified attacks on the Newton Falls Leader are embarrasing – to you, to me, to Newton Falls, and to Wikipedia – talk about being destructive.
I’ll leave you with this old Chinese Prov...ok, I don’t know where I heard it, but in your case it is true...“when one argues with a fool, you both look like fools.” So, I will no longer engage in your foolishness. If you cannot concretely demonstrate (that means factually, not your opinion – or twisted view of the facts) defend your bias actions, then I again ask that you stop this senseless dialog and allow Wikipedia to decide this issue.
Hey, let’s see if you were lying when you titled your response, “One last time.” My bet, the facts will demonstrate that you have nothing to say, but will try to say it anyway – go ahead, I challenge you, show the world that your “one last time” really was your last...you’ll prove me wrong, it will be a first for you, but I’m not proud, I’ll be able to handle it.
Newton Falls Leader (talk) (contribs) 21:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed External links that did not meet WP:EL criteria again and two "famous residents". One was supported only by a link to his own website Don Lemon. If you want to add him back, start an article on him and link to that please or use a valid third party reference. Jack Kucek ref does not mention Newton Falls, so add a ref that does to add him back. Please see WP:V for more on refs. Ruhrfisch 13:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Who would place the newton falls leader site as an external link?
I ask you this because there has been disputes as to whether or not allow this site from being placed as an external link but a representative of the site itself cannot place said link, so i ask that wikipedians vote on whether or not they would place newton falls leader as an external link based on their on research.
Please place your signature and your reason(s) under 'allow' or 'not allow'
Blah0401 10:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Blah0401
06:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Newton Falls Leader - Blah0401 when are you going to read/respond to the emails I've sent you? Before I engage in any of this (online) I want to hear your response. NewtonFallsLeader 14:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Not Allow Ruhrfisch 11:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC) Fails WP:EL, especially Links normally to be avoided, #13: "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: it should be a simple exercise to show how the link is directly and symmetrically related to the article's subject. This means that there is both a relation from the website to the subject of the article, and a relation from the subject of the article to the website. For example, the officially sanctioned online site of a rock band has a direct and symmetric relationship to that rock band, and thus should be linked from the rock band's Wikipedia article. An alternative site run by fans is not symmetrically related to the rock band, as the rock band has only indirect connections with that site."
As for your question, I do not see how the NFL website is both directly and symmetrically related to the city of Newton Falls. I agree it is about Newton Falls, but I do not see the symmetry of the relationship. To me it is like the fan website in the example. The official city website would meet this test and others might, but not this one. I also think it fails to meet criterion #1: "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article." I fail to see what the NFL site provides that meets this (see also WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a web directory). Please let me know what I am missing that you see.
Finally, I guess I am unclear - are you a mediator (neutral third party) or an advocate just for NewtonFallsLeader (and thus on his side - if so who's on my side?) or are you something else entirely? This is my first enounter with WP:AMA, so pardon my ignorance. In any cae, thanks for your help with all this. Ruhrfisch 05:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Not Allow. The article is currently weak on references for its factual statements. I'd be willing to consider the link to the Newton Falls Leader if it could be used as a reliable source ( WP:RS) to back up anything with no current citation. However our rules for a reliable source are quite stringent, and I doubt that the Leader would qualify under our current rules. There is also some logic in linking from a town's article to the website of a local newspaper. For example Baltimore, Maryland has a link to the Baltimore Sun and even mentions it in the text. However the Baltimore Sun is a notable newspaper whose significance can be documented by many third-party sources, and it's certainly deserving of its own article. None of this applies to the Newton Falls Leader. EdJohnston 17:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Not Allow. With specific exceptions, such as one example noted in another discussion:
the website is inappropriate as an external link. — Athænara ✉ 07:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it is clear from emails sent to me by User:NewtonFallsLeader that he is not interested in mediation. He and I both believe we are correct, and neither of us have changed our minds, so I intend to file an RFC (content dispute about the inclusion of his website as an External Link) and assume he will join it. I have sent copies of his and my emails to User:Blah0401 to help illustrate this. I have never filed or been involved in an RFC before, so I will take a few days to familiarize myself with the process before filing. Any advice or ideas are welcome.
Because I want everything to be transparent, I will only discuss this via Wikipedia talk pages and will not reply to emails about this (as I have already told NewtonFallsLeader) Thanks to everyone who tried to resolve this so far, sorry it has come to this, Ruhrfisch 21:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
NewtonFallsLeader ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has repeatedly misrepresented the situation in lengthy personal attack diatribes - Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct? — Athænara ✉ 22:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
There is one issue here - should the link be included or not? Only one person thinks it should be included: NewtonFallLeader. Mediation is aimed at getting two parties to agree to a solution. NewtownFallsLeader and I do not agree, so I do not see how mediation can help here. The next step is an RFC on the content. NFL, if you truly care about Newton Falls, Ohio, then please add meaningful content to it. Please don't disparage others. Thanks, Ruhrfisch 03:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Ruhrfisch disparage others? I state facts. If their words incriminate them - am I to blame? There isn't one issue here...there are several. The first issue is the manner in which you deleted the link to the Newton Falls Leader. You insist that your edit summary informed me - however, read the Problem section under Civility, it reads,
Silent and faceless words on Talk pages and Edit summaries do not transmit the nuances of verbal conversation, leading to small, facetious comments being misinterpreted.
Secondly, you then state a single reason for deleting the link. When you couldn't support that reason, you came up with another, and another...only the Wikipedia rules you cite agree with me. To get them to agree with you, you disparaged the Newton Falls Leader website by saying things like it contains commercial ads, it's this and that - all of which are lies, perpetrated by you to support your biased actions. Then, when I point out what you've started and Wikipedia's code of Civility which states,
One uncivil remark can easily escalate into a heated discussion which may not be focused objectively on the problem at hand. It is during these exchanges that community members may become uninterested in improving articles and instead focus on "triumphing" over the "enemy".
you refuse to admit that you are the one causing all of this. You are bent on "triumphing over me" and not concerned with what is best for the Newton Falls, Ohio page. The Newton Falls Leader website is all about Newton Falls, Ohio - nothing else. It contains articles, pictures and more about Newton Falls, Ohio which make it a reliable resource. Again, if you aren't biased then either delete all of the links throughout Wikipedia - like the ones I've mentioned above - or restore the link to the Newton Falls Leader...you can't have it both ways. Furthermore, quit posting your blatant lies and misunderstandings of Wikipedia rules and quit trying to denigrate me by insisting that I'm the one with the attitude! - it is against Wikipedia's code of civility! And really, who in thier right mind gets excited about two little dots over a letter in a name, oh, oh in the right place, too! NewtonFallsLeader 04:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes advocacy was unsuccessful. Since it was NewtonFallsLeader who asked for advocacy and he doesn't like the way it has gone and wants to take it up with a higher authority I suggested RFC and the case has been closed All information can be found at the AMA case page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blah0401 ( talk • contribs) 00:36, March 17, 2007
I have opened an RFC on User:NewtonFallsLeader's apparently inappropriate username, if anyone would like to comment. Ruhrfisch 04:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Ruhrfisch! You've just proven my earlier statements ... this isn't about posting an external link to the Newton Falls Leader website, it is about you being triumphant. Seriously, you are letting your alter ego get the best of you!
Allow me to explain, I hope I can do this simply enough, I'm not married to the Wikipedia username NewtonFallsLeader. In fact, I do not use that name anywhere else. I used that name here because upon registering the name I attempted to use was taken.
Not to disappoint you even more, when I read Athaenara's comment about it being discouraged, I tried to see if I could change it. However, I wasn't successful and since you insist on being triumphant I am waiting until all of this is settled; I will then delete my account and re-register under a different name ... maybe I'll pick a name with cutsie little dots over one of the letters - like you. No, I don't think people will get them over the right letter, and besides, I don't think Wikipedia provides usage of those characters anyway! Simply, it has enough characters ... it doesn't need any more.
So Ruhrfisch, what has come of your statements you've made on NewtonFallsLeader's talk page? There you state, "So I look forward to a friendly discussion..."? Further, you state, "If you can relieve my concern through discussing it here, I can stop worrying about it. If the two of us can't agree here, we can ask for help" You certainly have a short temper if waiting a day for me to respond isn't good enough for you...no, I know, it's that triumphant thing again, isn't it? Or, did you write that just to make people think you are professional? Lying isn't very professional.
I must say though, what you've written on [ NewtonFallsLeader]'s talk page does make you sound like you are some official Wikipedia executive. Isn't that what Wikipedia defines as deception? FYI: Ruhrfisch you are nothing more to Wikipedia than any other user!
But again, thanks for proving yourself. It makes my case against you that much stronger.
PS: the url to the Newton Falls Leader's website isn't www.NewtonFallsLeader.tc it is www.nfl.tc - a faint resemblance at best. And, I don't think posting an external link constitutes spamming! Have a great day Rührfisch.
NewtonFallsLeader 15:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the website http://www.nfl.tc meets WP:EL criteria for the Newton Falls, Ohio article or not. 02:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The website fails to meet the criteria established in WP:EL, especially Links normally to be avoided points #1 (Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.) and #13 (Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: it should be a simple exercise to show how the link is directly and symmetrically related to the article's subject. This means that there is both a relation from the website to the subject of the article, and a relation from the subject of the article to the website. For example, the officially sanctioned online site of a rock band has a direct and symmetric relationship to that rock band, and thus should be linked from the rock band's Wikipedia article. An alternative site run by fans is not symmetrically related to the rock band, as the rock band has only indirect connections with that site.), as well as a strong probability of violating points #3 (Links mainly intended to promote a website.) and #5 (Links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising.).
I have tried to work this out with the other editor (see above, User talk:NewtonFallsLeader, my talk page and its Archive 4, and the archive for this talk page). I also requested a Third Opinion, which was not accepted as the other editor in question did not agree to that process (see here). The other editor (now know as User:DaVoice) requested help from WP:AMA, see above and here. Unfortuantely none of these actions led to a resolution of the dispute.
Finally, please note that while I have been accused of bias against the website in question, I have removed a number of other linkspam websites more times from this article's external links section (diffs 4, 5, 6 and 7) as well as removing non-notable persons and questionable links in the article itself. Ruhrfisch 02:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
To comment on Ruhrfisch's remarks about being accused of bias, he has. The reasons he has is that his first reason for deleting the link is because it has a .tc - and not a .com. When I explained this to him, he then changed his story to the website had a lot of advertisements, again false. He then changed to it had nothing new, and it was then that I pointed out to him the other links on the Newton Falls, Ohio page that hadn't had anything new published in over a year, and that is when he deleted the other links. Had I not said anything, he would have continued to allow those links to remain, while refusing to allow the link to the Newton Falls Leader. I've since pointed out to him other links, such as I mentioned above, and he hasn't deleted them.
I've asked how to take this to the next step...I see that Ruhrfisch has more time to read up on how to do that than do I. However, that doesn't make his actions correct. I do not have a problem with not allowing a link if, that is, all other similar links are also removed from Wikipedia pages. All I ask is that a ruling on what is and is not permitted be made - then that ruling be applied faily and equally across Wikipedia.
In my defense, I must say that those who know their way around Wikipedia seem to expect those of us who don't to simply know what is going on. That is why you will see that I didn't realize at the time there are editing summaries; further, Wikipedia rules speak against simply relying upon those summaries as a means of informing authors of changes. Because I wasn't aware of these, I had added the links back. It wasn't until I engaged in communication with Ruhrfisch did I become aware of Wikipedia's guidelines...such as posting a link, and user name. I question why Wikipedia doesn't inform users of these things before they are allowed to create a user name and or edit any pages. Regardless, all of this could have been avoided had Ruhrfisch simply notified me about the deletion.
DaVoice 13:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Very clearly doesn't meet WP:EL. Not a close question. -- TedFrank 03:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Clearly not reasonable under WP:EL. Note all the answers contributed on this very question above. Ruhrfisch, please tell us if the participants in that earlier discussion need to re-enter their comments here. EdJohnston 03:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
This link definitely does not belong here. -- NE2 00:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
The most salient feature of this page, its archive, and the mediation page is this: while Wikipedians posted clearly and dispassionately about policies and guidelines which have meaning to them, one user, who is indifferent to Wikipedia:Civility (official policy) and Wikipedia:No personal attacks (official policy), and whose primary aim is to get his link accepted, has persistently maligned the character and intelligence of nearly every other editor who has expressed an opinion. — Athænara ✉ 18:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Based on reviewing the arguments put forth in this page, and the site in question, I find that it fails the requirements for WP:EL and WP:COI. I do not think that it provides a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article. I feel that it is a link that is intended to promote a website. I do not see a symmetrical link between the site and the topic that the link is being requested for - the site is about significantly more than the community of Newton Falls. The owner has bypassed the advice given in WP:EL, suggesting that they do not add a link, but instead suggest it on the talk page for the article, and allow other editors to add it. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 22:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- There are several things that should be considered when adding an external link.
- Is it accessible to the reader?
- Is it proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)?
- Is it a functional link, and likely to continue being a functional link?
- What should be linked
- Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons. Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.
- Links to be considered
- For albums, movies, books, and other creative works, links to professional reviews.
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Newton Falls is a cute, quaint little town. Living there is enjoyable because it is away from the loudness of a large city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.40.79.106 ( talk • contribs) 21:42, 5 December 2004 (UTC)
Re: "Zip Day": I grew up in Windham Township, Ohio, which is about 10 miles from Newton Falls, and I've never heard of it. I can't find a source on Zip Day that doesn't ultimately refer back to Wikipedia. - SwissCelt 19:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Who has the ZIP+4 "44444+4444"?
It might be whomever rents "PO Box 4444" (if PO Box number "4444" has been rented). NO PO BOX 4444 at NF post office. 72.82.180.21 09:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
It also says we celebrate Dicker Days every year. I havent seen a Dicker Days here in years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.201.125.59 ( talk • contribs) 01:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
User:NewtonFallsLeader left the following at my talk page:
I have looked at the web page in question here and see no original content relating to Newton Falls that is current. I see lots of advertisements, links to the Weather Channel and local newspaper and CNN and other national and local sites, and announcements for events that are in some cases months out of date. I fail to see how this meets the criteria for a valid external link (see WP:EL for the policy). I welcome you and hope you can improve the article on Newton Falls (or anything else), but if all you want is to insert what many might call "link spam" then you will be reverted every time (and not just by me). Wikipedia is not a web directory or collection of links (see WP:NOT). I am posting this here too (also at the user's talk page in slightly different form) to explain why I reverted this edit. All responses are welcome (here is probably best as they are about this article). Ruhrfisch 16:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I've apologized to you for the multiple emails, behind a proxy our systems were hanging and once thought dead, I resent the email...only to find when checking my personal email that multiple copies had been sent.
Your practices of monitoring these websites are unethical and a concern Wikipedia needs to address with you, hence, I will allow them to do just that.
As for your emails, please stop emailing me. However, please feel free to use my website to look up the word "pompous" as you may want to add that to your vocab. Just because you have 1000 sites doesn't impress me, nor does it give you any right to act as you have.
Again, the Newton Falls Leader stands behind its right to be on the Newton Falls, Ohio page as it is a non-profit community based website for everyone. Simply, your opinions differ, as do your actions, from the rules of Wikipedia, which will be addressed in my complaint. 209.33.19.102 (talk) (contribs) 05:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your apology about the multiple emails - I did not and do not take offense at the multiple emails you sent to me, I was merely letting you know that there seemed to be a problem with the email system you were using. I apologize for any offense given or for appearing to be pompous - neither was my intent. I do not know what you mean by "As for your emails, please stop emailing me." as I have not sent you any emails, although I have used this talk page and your talk page and here: Wikipedia:Association of Members' Advocates/Requests/January 2007/NewtonFallsLeader. Since you are new to Wikipedia, are you perhaps confusing talk pages with email?
I assure you I have no bias against you or your website, only an interest in keeping articles in accord with Wikipedia policies and guidlelines. As an example of this, see User talk:Pikeweatherman for a similar removal of an external link for not meeting WP:EL that I was involved in. I am also not ashamed of my edits or communications with you.
Finally, here is why I deleted your link in all the detail I intend to give. I initially though a webapge for a community in Ohio with a Turks and Caicos internet country code top-level domain was a bit odd (no, .tc does not stand for Trumbull County, although that is clever). When I read it I believed it did not meet the Wikipedia external links guidleleines. All I have learned from you since only bolsters that opinion. Here are the relevant sections of WP:EL to show exactly why I now think your website is not a valid external link.
"...one should avoid:
To sum up, you should not link to what you say is your own website in any case. As I see it, your website is not a unique resource suitable for a Featured Article, and it has a large amount of ads (whatever you choose to call them), and it is not directly and symmetrically related to Newton Falls, Ohio.
I am sure if someone tried to put content on your site that did not meet its rules, you would remove it or not add it. That is what I have done here (though I claim no ownership of Wikipedia). If you do not agree, I would appreciate it if you would give similarly detailed and wikilinked citations from Wikipedia of your website's "right" to be here, as well as whatever Wikipedia policies or guidelines you believe I have violated. Otherwise I fail to see what your point is. Thanks and have a good day, Ruhrfisch 19:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Wouldn't it be great if we had devoted all this effort to improving the Newton Falls, Ohio article instead?
Your response is evidence that you acted with bias and still maintain that way...or you're not understanding what you write. I'll choose to believe the first.
Words are words, without actions they are empty, meaningless. Your actions clearly fit the definition of bias, and your words back that up.
Again, let's stop this pointless chatter and allow Wikipedia to decide if what you've done and how you've acted is within their rules or not.
Thank you - Newton Falls Leader (talk) (contribs) 04:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
PS - do I criticize you for using a user name that very few understand? Is it German? Does that belong here? This is the English version. Now, doesn't that sound silly?
So I told you why I did it when I removed it, I'm not the first to remove it, and I stand by my assertion that it is not an appropriate link. I am done talking with you unless you can cite and wikilink chapter and verse of Wikipedia policy that your edits are OK under or that I have violated. Ruhrfisch 04:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that when you state opinions they become facts, but when I state facts they become opinions?
Newton Falls Leader 209.33.19.102 (talk) (contribs) 04:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure why I am continuing this. I think it is because I see that you obviously care a lot about Newton Falls, Ohio so I hope that you will add content to the article. We can always use good editors. Take care and have fun thinking up more ways to distract me. I can always use a good laugh and your attempts at argument make me smile. Thanks, Ruhrfisch 21:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Ruhrfisch stated, “I am not sure why I am continuing this.” That makes two of us, and probably a lot more who read your responses, since it is clear to everyone (well, except you - Ruhrfisch) that justification for your actions exists only within the depths of your own mind, and who can argue with that? As for accusing me of calling you a liar, I’ve done no such thing...conversely, you are the one who makes statements and fails to back them up, I simply point them out. Am I to blame if the facts demonstate that your words do not match your actions?
Fact:
Finally, you acted with bias and fail at every attempt to show that you didn’t. You fail to provide any Wikipedia rules that agree with your opinions. Listing Wikipedia links does not an argument make. And, your attempts at trying to twist Wikipedia rules to match your imagination, your reality, your unjustified attacks on the Newton Falls Leader are embarrasing – to you, to me, to Newton Falls, and to Wikipedia – talk about being destructive.
I’ll leave you with this old Chinese Prov...ok, I don’t know where I heard it, but in your case it is true...“when one argues with a fool, you both look like fools.” So, I will no longer engage in your foolishness. If you cannot concretely demonstrate (that means factually, not your opinion – or twisted view of the facts) defend your bias actions, then I again ask that you stop this senseless dialog and allow Wikipedia to decide this issue.
Hey, let’s see if you were lying when you titled your response, “One last time.” My bet, the facts will demonstrate that you have nothing to say, but will try to say it anyway – go ahead, I challenge you, show the world that your “one last time” really was your last...you’ll prove me wrong, it will be a first for you, but I’m not proud, I’ll be able to handle it.
Newton Falls Leader (talk) (contribs) 21:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed External links that did not meet WP:EL criteria again and two "famous residents". One was supported only by a link to his own website Don Lemon. If you want to add him back, start an article on him and link to that please or use a valid third party reference. Jack Kucek ref does not mention Newton Falls, so add a ref that does to add him back. Please see WP:V for more on refs. Ruhrfisch 13:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Who would place the newton falls leader site as an external link?
I ask you this because there has been disputes as to whether or not allow this site from being placed as an external link but a representative of the site itself cannot place said link, so i ask that wikipedians vote on whether or not they would place newton falls leader as an external link based on their on research.
Please place your signature and your reason(s) under 'allow' or 'not allow'
Blah0401 10:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Blah0401
06:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Newton Falls Leader - Blah0401 when are you going to read/respond to the emails I've sent you? Before I engage in any of this (online) I want to hear your response. NewtonFallsLeader 14:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Not Allow Ruhrfisch 11:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC) Fails WP:EL, especially Links normally to be avoided, #13: "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: it should be a simple exercise to show how the link is directly and symmetrically related to the article's subject. This means that there is both a relation from the website to the subject of the article, and a relation from the subject of the article to the website. For example, the officially sanctioned online site of a rock band has a direct and symmetric relationship to that rock band, and thus should be linked from the rock band's Wikipedia article. An alternative site run by fans is not symmetrically related to the rock band, as the rock band has only indirect connections with that site."
As for your question, I do not see how the NFL website is both directly and symmetrically related to the city of Newton Falls. I agree it is about Newton Falls, but I do not see the symmetry of the relationship. To me it is like the fan website in the example. The official city website would meet this test and others might, but not this one. I also think it fails to meet criterion #1: "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article." I fail to see what the NFL site provides that meets this (see also WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a web directory). Please let me know what I am missing that you see.
Finally, I guess I am unclear - are you a mediator (neutral third party) or an advocate just for NewtonFallsLeader (and thus on his side - if so who's on my side?) or are you something else entirely? This is my first enounter with WP:AMA, so pardon my ignorance. In any cae, thanks for your help with all this. Ruhrfisch 05:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Not Allow. The article is currently weak on references for its factual statements. I'd be willing to consider the link to the Newton Falls Leader if it could be used as a reliable source ( WP:RS) to back up anything with no current citation. However our rules for a reliable source are quite stringent, and I doubt that the Leader would qualify under our current rules. There is also some logic in linking from a town's article to the website of a local newspaper. For example Baltimore, Maryland has a link to the Baltimore Sun and even mentions it in the text. However the Baltimore Sun is a notable newspaper whose significance can be documented by many third-party sources, and it's certainly deserving of its own article. None of this applies to the Newton Falls Leader. EdJohnston 17:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Not Allow. With specific exceptions, such as one example noted in another discussion:
the website is inappropriate as an external link. — Athænara ✉ 07:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it is clear from emails sent to me by User:NewtonFallsLeader that he is not interested in mediation. He and I both believe we are correct, and neither of us have changed our minds, so I intend to file an RFC (content dispute about the inclusion of his website as an External Link) and assume he will join it. I have sent copies of his and my emails to User:Blah0401 to help illustrate this. I have never filed or been involved in an RFC before, so I will take a few days to familiarize myself with the process before filing. Any advice or ideas are welcome.
Because I want everything to be transparent, I will only discuss this via Wikipedia talk pages and will not reply to emails about this (as I have already told NewtonFallsLeader) Thanks to everyone who tried to resolve this so far, sorry it has come to this, Ruhrfisch 21:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
NewtonFallsLeader ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has repeatedly misrepresented the situation in lengthy personal attack diatribes - Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct? — Athænara ✉ 22:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
There is one issue here - should the link be included or not? Only one person thinks it should be included: NewtonFallLeader. Mediation is aimed at getting two parties to agree to a solution. NewtownFallsLeader and I do not agree, so I do not see how mediation can help here. The next step is an RFC on the content. NFL, if you truly care about Newton Falls, Ohio, then please add meaningful content to it. Please don't disparage others. Thanks, Ruhrfisch 03:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Ruhrfisch disparage others? I state facts. If their words incriminate them - am I to blame? There isn't one issue here...there are several. The first issue is the manner in which you deleted the link to the Newton Falls Leader. You insist that your edit summary informed me - however, read the Problem section under Civility, it reads,
Silent and faceless words on Talk pages and Edit summaries do not transmit the nuances of verbal conversation, leading to small, facetious comments being misinterpreted.
Secondly, you then state a single reason for deleting the link. When you couldn't support that reason, you came up with another, and another...only the Wikipedia rules you cite agree with me. To get them to agree with you, you disparaged the Newton Falls Leader website by saying things like it contains commercial ads, it's this and that - all of which are lies, perpetrated by you to support your biased actions. Then, when I point out what you've started and Wikipedia's code of Civility which states,
One uncivil remark can easily escalate into a heated discussion which may not be focused objectively on the problem at hand. It is during these exchanges that community members may become uninterested in improving articles and instead focus on "triumphing" over the "enemy".
you refuse to admit that you are the one causing all of this. You are bent on "triumphing over me" and not concerned with what is best for the Newton Falls, Ohio page. The Newton Falls Leader website is all about Newton Falls, Ohio - nothing else. It contains articles, pictures and more about Newton Falls, Ohio which make it a reliable resource. Again, if you aren't biased then either delete all of the links throughout Wikipedia - like the ones I've mentioned above - or restore the link to the Newton Falls Leader...you can't have it both ways. Furthermore, quit posting your blatant lies and misunderstandings of Wikipedia rules and quit trying to denigrate me by insisting that I'm the one with the attitude! - it is against Wikipedia's code of civility! And really, who in thier right mind gets excited about two little dots over a letter in a name, oh, oh in the right place, too! NewtonFallsLeader 04:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes advocacy was unsuccessful. Since it was NewtonFallsLeader who asked for advocacy and he doesn't like the way it has gone and wants to take it up with a higher authority I suggested RFC and the case has been closed All information can be found at the AMA case page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blah0401 ( talk • contribs) 00:36, March 17, 2007
I have opened an RFC on User:NewtonFallsLeader's apparently inappropriate username, if anyone would like to comment. Ruhrfisch 04:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Ruhrfisch! You've just proven my earlier statements ... this isn't about posting an external link to the Newton Falls Leader website, it is about you being triumphant. Seriously, you are letting your alter ego get the best of you!
Allow me to explain, I hope I can do this simply enough, I'm not married to the Wikipedia username NewtonFallsLeader. In fact, I do not use that name anywhere else. I used that name here because upon registering the name I attempted to use was taken.
Not to disappoint you even more, when I read Athaenara's comment about it being discouraged, I tried to see if I could change it. However, I wasn't successful and since you insist on being triumphant I am waiting until all of this is settled; I will then delete my account and re-register under a different name ... maybe I'll pick a name with cutsie little dots over one of the letters - like you. No, I don't think people will get them over the right letter, and besides, I don't think Wikipedia provides usage of those characters anyway! Simply, it has enough characters ... it doesn't need any more.
So Ruhrfisch, what has come of your statements you've made on NewtonFallsLeader's talk page? There you state, "So I look forward to a friendly discussion..."? Further, you state, "If you can relieve my concern through discussing it here, I can stop worrying about it. If the two of us can't agree here, we can ask for help" You certainly have a short temper if waiting a day for me to respond isn't good enough for you...no, I know, it's that triumphant thing again, isn't it? Or, did you write that just to make people think you are professional? Lying isn't very professional.
I must say though, what you've written on [ NewtonFallsLeader]'s talk page does make you sound like you are some official Wikipedia executive. Isn't that what Wikipedia defines as deception? FYI: Ruhrfisch you are nothing more to Wikipedia than any other user!
But again, thanks for proving yourself. It makes my case against you that much stronger.
PS: the url to the Newton Falls Leader's website isn't www.NewtonFallsLeader.tc it is www.nfl.tc - a faint resemblance at best. And, I don't think posting an external link constitutes spamming! Have a great day Rührfisch.
NewtonFallsLeader 15:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the website http://www.nfl.tc meets WP:EL criteria for the Newton Falls, Ohio article or not. 02:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The website fails to meet the criteria established in WP:EL, especially Links normally to be avoided points #1 (Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.) and #13 (Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: it should be a simple exercise to show how the link is directly and symmetrically related to the article's subject. This means that there is both a relation from the website to the subject of the article, and a relation from the subject of the article to the website. For example, the officially sanctioned online site of a rock band has a direct and symmetric relationship to that rock band, and thus should be linked from the rock band's Wikipedia article. An alternative site run by fans is not symmetrically related to the rock band, as the rock band has only indirect connections with that site.), as well as a strong probability of violating points #3 (Links mainly intended to promote a website.) and #5 (Links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising.).
I have tried to work this out with the other editor (see above, User talk:NewtonFallsLeader, my talk page and its Archive 4, and the archive for this talk page). I also requested a Third Opinion, which was not accepted as the other editor in question did not agree to that process (see here). The other editor (now know as User:DaVoice) requested help from WP:AMA, see above and here. Unfortuantely none of these actions led to a resolution of the dispute.
Finally, please note that while I have been accused of bias against the website in question, I have removed a number of other linkspam websites more times from this article's external links section (diffs 4, 5, 6 and 7) as well as removing non-notable persons and questionable links in the article itself. Ruhrfisch 02:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
To comment on Ruhrfisch's remarks about being accused of bias, he has. The reasons he has is that his first reason for deleting the link is because it has a .tc - and not a .com. When I explained this to him, he then changed his story to the website had a lot of advertisements, again false. He then changed to it had nothing new, and it was then that I pointed out to him the other links on the Newton Falls, Ohio page that hadn't had anything new published in over a year, and that is when he deleted the other links. Had I not said anything, he would have continued to allow those links to remain, while refusing to allow the link to the Newton Falls Leader. I've since pointed out to him other links, such as I mentioned above, and he hasn't deleted them.
I've asked how to take this to the next step...I see that Ruhrfisch has more time to read up on how to do that than do I. However, that doesn't make his actions correct. I do not have a problem with not allowing a link if, that is, all other similar links are also removed from Wikipedia pages. All I ask is that a ruling on what is and is not permitted be made - then that ruling be applied faily and equally across Wikipedia.
In my defense, I must say that those who know their way around Wikipedia seem to expect those of us who don't to simply know what is going on. That is why you will see that I didn't realize at the time there are editing summaries; further, Wikipedia rules speak against simply relying upon those summaries as a means of informing authors of changes. Because I wasn't aware of these, I had added the links back. It wasn't until I engaged in communication with Ruhrfisch did I become aware of Wikipedia's guidelines...such as posting a link, and user name. I question why Wikipedia doesn't inform users of these things before they are allowed to create a user name and or edit any pages. Regardless, all of this could have been avoided had Ruhrfisch simply notified me about the deletion.
DaVoice 13:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Very clearly doesn't meet WP:EL. Not a close question. -- TedFrank 03:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Clearly not reasonable under WP:EL. Note all the answers contributed on this very question above. Ruhrfisch, please tell us if the participants in that earlier discussion need to re-enter their comments here. EdJohnston 03:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
This link definitely does not belong here. -- NE2 00:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
The most salient feature of this page, its archive, and the mediation page is this: while Wikipedians posted clearly and dispassionately about policies and guidelines which have meaning to them, one user, who is indifferent to Wikipedia:Civility (official policy) and Wikipedia:No personal attacks (official policy), and whose primary aim is to get his link accepted, has persistently maligned the character and intelligence of nearly every other editor who has expressed an opinion. — Athænara ✉ 18:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Based on reviewing the arguments put forth in this page, and the site in question, I find that it fails the requirements for WP:EL and WP:COI. I do not think that it provides a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article. I feel that it is a link that is intended to promote a website. I do not see a symmetrical link between the site and the topic that the link is being requested for - the site is about significantly more than the community of Newton Falls. The owner has bypassed the advice given in WP:EL, suggesting that they do not add a link, but instead suggest it on the talk page for the article, and allow other editors to add it. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 22:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- There are several things that should be considered when adding an external link.
- Is it accessible to the reader?
- Is it proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)?
- Is it a functional link, and likely to continue being a functional link?
- What should be linked
- Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons. Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.
- Links to be considered
- For albums, movies, books, and other creative works, links to professional reviews.