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Can we look for some consensus here? I'm thinking that the new Cosmos are an actual continuation of the original club, since there is an unbroken chain of ownership. This isn't a new organization trying to revive an old brand. Actually, the Cosmos now are in the same business they've been in since 1985 - youth soccer. I'm not sure this warrants separate pages. Thoughts? SixFourThree ( talk) 14:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)SixFourThree
This article is about a sports organization mainly recognized by it's professional football/soccer team. However even when this team was disolved in 1985 the organization under the name New York Cosmos kept participating in other activities as promoting youth soccer camps.
Now they have re-founded the team only. Not the club or the organization itself, just the team. Is more like a frachise reactivation similar to waht happened with the San Jose Earthquakes. The team's name, logo, history and statistics were not transferred to the Houston Dynamo and remained inactive in San Jose until the Earthquakes were reactivated in 2007.
Even if you want to consider that the Cosmos ceased to exist there is the case of ACF Fiorentina whose article says: "The italian club was relegated at the end of the 2001–02 season and went into judicially controlled administration in June 2002. This form of bankruptcy (sports companies cannot exactly fail in this way in Italy, but they can suffer a similar procedure) meant that the club was refused a place in Serie B for the 2002–03 season, and as a result effectively ceased to exist."
Then it follows "The club was promptly re-established in August 2002 as Associazione Calcio Fiorentina e Florentia Viola with shoe and leather entrepreneur Diego Della Valle as new owner, and was admitted into Serie C2, the fourth tier of Italian football. The only player to remain at the club in its new incarnation was Angelo Di Livio, whose commitment to club's cause further endeared him to the fans. Helped by Di Livio and 30-goal striker Christian Riganò, the club won its Serie C2 group with considerable ease, which would normally have led to a promotion to Serie C1. However, due to the bizarre Caso Catania (Catania Case) the club skipped Serie C1 and was admitted into Serie B, something that was only made possible by the Italian Football Federation's decision to resolve the Catania situation by increasing the number of teams in Serie B from 20 to 24 and promoting Fiorentina for "sports merits". In the 2003 off-season, the club also bought back the right to use the Fiorentina name and the famous shirt design, and re-incorporated itself as ACF Fiorentina".
As you can see the "Fiorenina" kept it's history, it's legacy and all the honors that the club achieved through it's history. Why can't be the same with the Cosmos? -- Locopunkie ( talk) 22:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Personally id change the main article into New York Cosmos (NASL) and then when the current New York Comos are granted MLS status change that page into New York Cosmos(MLS) Welshman25 ( talk) 19:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
The issue for me here is that the Cosmos organisation never actually shut down – the men's team may have stopped, but the actual organisation continued. I personally would wait until the Cosmos are granted some sort of right of succession from the original NASL club by MLS, and see what the club itself claims to be its foundation date in the coming months. For now, I'd keep the status quo. – Cliftonian the orangey bit 07:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
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The distinction is this — Before August 1, 2010, there was no New York Cosmos organization that openly declared its existence. That day at Copa NYC was the grand announcement establishing itself to the public. There are news reports and press releases to back this fact up. Between the folding of the original Cosmos and the announcement of the new one, there was no professional sports team or organization. There was only a rights holder to the "Cosmos" name who could use it as he wished. We all know of the soccer camps, ownership of old videos and trophies, etc., but this does not mean there was a living, operating soccer franchise or football club. This man was not the New York Cosmos - he was just a man who owned the New York Cosmos name. And now he sold his rights to the name to a group that is - from the ground up - creating a brand new organization that did not exist beforehand. If we take the Cosmos name out of the equation, everything that is being created is original. By any other name, we'd all consider this to be the start of something fresh. Just because they bought the right to use an old name does not mean they are the same old team. -- Blackbox77 ( talk) 07:16, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
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In the English language, the word "the" is only capitalized at the beginning of a sentence. Why does one user insist on capitalizing "the" in every instance it is before the name "New York Cosmos." KitHutch ( talk) 17:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Cliftonian, you did a great job on the article rewrite not too long ago. The details, sources, etc. were very much needed and the article is better for it. Now that I have some time, I will make a couple of critiques. 1) There seems to be too much info about the original Cosmos. While important details and relevant connections to the NASL club should of course be stressed, there seems to be a lot of extra background that doesn't have any direct bearing on the modern day incarnation. For example, do we need to know who original owned the first Cosmos, how many championships they won, and the players they signed to further this page's focus? Such information seems best left to the NASL club's article where those details are highly relevant and needed. 2) Similar to my first point, the images you added seem to be only partially important to the article's overall point. Yes - Pele, Cantona, and Chinaglia are all relevant to the modern day Cosmos. But an image of Chinaglia in his playing days - or any original Cosmos player - seems out of context no matter how important they are. Those images seem best left to articles about them and the clubs they played for. (I'd also make the pics a bit smaller but that's not really a big deal). I'll go ahead and be WP:Bold and make some edits but don't feel like I can't go back and compromise. -- Blackbox77 ( talk) 07:16, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Is the status implied by this article; that the New York Cosmos are now a separate entity from the original Cosmos; verified by credible third party sources? Or do available sources present the Cosmos as a single established entity? What role do Wikipedia editors have in determining this, and how much of that rests with the current trademark holder? unak 1978 03:54, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Comment - No merge These pages should absoluetely not be merged. Just because someone keeps a trademark active for 25 years and sells it to a newly formed group does not make it a continuation of the NASL team. For all we know at this point, this new group will always stay a youth academy and never be a pro team. Plently of new teams tank on the identity of an older teams either by reregisterin a trademark or buying it from its current holder. Baltimore Orioles, Cincinnati Reds, San Jose Earthquakes, Vancouver Canucks, San Francisco Seals (ice hockey) are just a few of many examples of this. Just because an organization's marketing department claims the history of something that came before does not make it true. Take the Washington Nationals for instance. They claim the history of 3 teams and market themselves with two founding dates Washington Nationals: Since 1969 or 1905? Cmjc80 ( talk) 23:10, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
That summer, the club called in the Provisional Liquidator and shortly afterwards, the club was wound up and the gates to Ayresome Park were padlocked. Without the £350,000 capital required for Football League registration, a new rule, it seemed inevitable that the club would fold permanently. However, Steve Gibson, a member of the board at the time, brought together a consortium and with ten minutes to spare before the deadline, they completed their registration with the Football League for the 1986–87 season. Following the registration came both a change of club crest and a change of the official company name to Middlesbrough Football and Athletic Club (1986) Ltd.
Merge It seems clear to me that although the Cosmos stopped fielding teams, the youth camps continued until the whole company was sold to the new ownership group. I'd also like to go back to Unak78's point:
The Cosmos clearly assume the history of the original club, commissioning this limited-edition cap featuring the new crest and stars for each NASL championship. [1] I don't know that it should be our decision to make a different claim. SixFourThree ( talk) 22:08, 26 January 2011 (UTC)SixFourThree
UPDATE: A request for verification has been sent to the New York Cosmos. In the interest of transparency I will post the nature of the email that was sent to them on behalf of myself and 'WikiProject Football'.
I apologize for taking so long to send this correspondence. In the future I intend to send similar requests for clarification to MLS, Sounders FC, Whitecaps FC, and the Portland Timbers. However as the Cosmos are currently an independant organization I have contacted them alone. I hope to to hear from them soon. When I have thier response I will post it here.
As to Cmjc80 ( talk · contribs)'s example of the Washington Nationals, at no point does he address the issue of Verifiability, which is one of Wikipedia's main Policies. To the specifics, verifiability went first to MLB who enabled the Nationals to establish thier history for themselves. If there was confusion, it was in the Nationals themselve attempting to satisfy to different segments of nostalgia before finally settling on 1969. The author of the article relates the confusion this causes, but at no point suggests that MLB or the Nationals do not have the authority to determine thier official franchise history. Had the Nationals decided initially on 1905 as thier founding and we chose to post 1969 here we would be violating Wikipedia policy for Verifiability. There can be no grey area here. We don't have the authority to make judgement calls here. Cmjc80 ( talk · contribs), this is not intended to be a slight, but I suggest you read Wikipedia's policies and understand them for yourself. unak 1978 00:13, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I guess this clarifies the issue: this article from the Cosmos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.235.85.45 ( talk) 23:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
"40th Birthday" article Just thought I'd post this article from the Cosmos, I think it's relevant to the above debate. – Cliftonian the orangey bit 04:50, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
I guess this clarifies the issue: this article from the Cosmos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.235.85.45 ( talk) 23:22, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
These soccer camps are a major sticking point and it needs to be understood they do not matter whatsoever to the discussion. The youth soccer camps were not apart of the New York Cosmos football club proper. These camps (operated by Pinton's company Soccer Camps of America, Inc.) used the name "Cosmos" because Pinton himself owned the right to use the name —- not because the former NASL institution still existed. Pinton via Cosmos Soccer Club, Inc. (now an LLC) - an entirely separate legal entity - owned the "Cosmos" trademark, trophies, etc. Because he bestowed these legally and organizationally separate camps with the permission to use the name, it does not mean these youth camps have anything to do with the correct "lineage" of the NY Cosmos. Cosmos Soccer Club, Inc. is the only legal entity we should be focusing on.
Cosmos Soccer Club, Inc. was the name of the corporation setup to run the New York Cosmos when the club was owned by Warner Bros. The corporation was bought by Chinaglia's group and eventually moved on to Pinton when the team folded. Now when we look at nycosmos.com today, it is New York Cosmos, LLC. running the show. This corporate entity first filed with the state of New York on April 30, 2010 ( link). The date is irrelevant other than to show there wasn't just a simple name change. This is a brand new company that bought the rights to use the "Cosmos" name. It did not buy a soccer club as the soccer club folded in 1985. A corporation continuing to exist as the legal owner of a trademark does not mean the New York Cosmos survived. Unlike Fiorentina and Luton Town that had different legal entities continue to field teams year after year, there is no such lineage to point to with the Cosmos. The club and soccer organization folded. Now a brand new club is being started from the ground up by Kemsley's group. They could have named this club anything they wanted but instead they bought the rights to the "Cosmos" name. They did not purchase a soccer club from Pinton. -- Blackbox77 ( talk) 08:28, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Here is an article that states, "The Cosmos were the flagbearer of the United States' North American Soccer League but they folded in 1985 after the league's collapse. Kemsley bought the naming rights and has Pele on board as club president. It is clear from this article that it is NOT the same franchise, but that someone just bought the old logo. Therefore, the articles should NOT be merged. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/867893/eric-cantona-back-in-football-with-new-york-cosmos?cc=5901
Oppose merge - even if the two teams are legally the same entity, there is no requirement that they be merged. Just note that this team is the same legal entity as the old one. We have plenty of sports teams with separated articles when warranted, e.g., Montreal Expos, History of the Brooklyn Dodgers. And given the 25 year or so gap between the activity of the two teams, and lack of continuity in anything that anyone but a lawyer would care about, a separate article for each seems warranted. Rlendog ( talk) 19:09, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Looking through this long discussion about whether to merge this article with the one on the original team, I see arguments that fail to acknowledge a fundamental truth: teams in US sports leagues are not clubs in the European sense, they are franchises granted by the league within which they operate. Subsequently, the soccer camps run under the Cosmos name were not a case of a club not fielding a top-flight squad; the usage of those terms in that fashion are meaningless in the US sports context.
The camps were a completely separate entity that just used the name. They were not a continuation of the NASL franchise's operations; those operations ceased when the NASL, which granted the franchise in the first place, ceased to exist. Nor are the new owners of the trademarks reviving the old NASL franchise, as there's no such franchise to operate; they seek a new franchise in MLS, albeit one that would use an old name (And, as an MLS franchise, they technically wouldn't even own it; MLS's single-entity structure, where all teams are owned by the league, means that they would be operators only.)
This franchise model is also why teams move in US leagues, and don't in European leagues (Milton Keyes Dons, an ever contentious exception, notwithstanding). The movement of a team to a new city is the modification of the territorial rights that are part of the franchise to operate a team.
Now, I will acknowledge that the distinction is often over looked at lower levels of play, such as independent league baseball or lower minor leagues in hockey, where leagues merge and reorganize on occasion. But that doesn't change that these new owners of the Cosmos trademarks are pursuing the securing of a new franchise in a new league, not continuing operations persuant to the same franchise in the same league. oknazevad ( talk) 06:51, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
When will the New York Cosmos begin its activity at the USA national leagues?
Cumbas2010 08:30, 24 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cumbas2010 ( talk • contribs)
I think that it is necessary to add in the section stadium that almost surely the first MLS season of the Cosmos in 2013 will be played at Citi Field stadium. Thank you and compliments for this great page !!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.75.114.154 ( talk) 17:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't know if it's necessary, but I have some pics I took at Paul Scholes' testimonial on 5th August that I'd be willing to upload to add to the article (as it's the new NYC first game). However, I've never uploaded a pic to wiki before (so have no idea on the various licences available), and I'm unsure if I can upload pics as an IP (I have a named account, just haven't used it for a few years). I'll be away from a PC for a couple of weeks, but if the pics are wanted, and someone is willing to help with the uploads, then I can look into adding them when I return. 86.180.186.203 ( talk) 15:37, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't the 'Blackout Kit' that debuted a few months ago be included as the Away kit? 12.96.87.102 ( talk) 16:22, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Because there is yet no real club and only those working behind the scenes to one day start a true club, might a better opening line be "The New York Cosmos are a proposed American soccer club based in New York City"? Much of this article has jumped the gun giving credence to this investment group implying they are a real sporting organization like any other team. I think it is important to highlight the fact this article is talking about an as-of-now proposed soccer club. -- Blackbox77 ( talk) 02:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 11:46, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
New York Cosmos (2010) →
New York Cosmos – This page needs to be moved from "New York Cosmos (2010)" to "New York Cosmos" to accompany the move of "New York Cosmos" to "New York Cosmos (1971-1985)". However, because that move left "New York Cosmos" as a redirect to "New York Cosmos (1971-1985)", this cannot be completed without the help of an administrator. --
Fifty7 (
talk)
17:51, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Maybe instead of deciding whether to support or oppose now, we should debate if the new Cosmos will ever be considered WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I'm sure there are those that think they are now, those that think they will/should never be, and those that are undecided. For those that "oppose for now," if not now then when? It may be better to decide if there will be a point in the future when this team will definitively deserve the main article title. Maybe when they start to sign players? Date of their first game? Enter MLS? Last longer than the original Cosmos? -- Blackbox77 ( talk) 23:23, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
I just sat here and read the whole page of talk about whether or not the NY Cosmos are the same. I don't think you are ever going to get a 100% consensus on the subject. This is one that could go all the way to the supreme court. Whether or not there are 2 pages or 1 page for the NY Cosmos doesn't really matter. What matters is that the information on any and all pages is verifiable and/or correct. If you have two pages, each one should reference the other. If you have one, all the information should be included. --I did have one thought though. Wasn't there a reference to the Cosmos "folding" _after_ the first NASL went out of business? If there was no league to play in, why keep a team? The leading opponent to the "team continuity" theory (was it blackbox?) stated that you cant have a soccer/football club without a team and staff. Is a club a club without a league or opponents? And if you are a club with no league or opponents, should you keep paying a team and staff? It seems to me, without a league to play in, the only way to keep the club alive and "simmering on the back burner" for the future is to train new players with the hopes of entering a new league. Hence the continuing soccer camps. Although a point may be made that with the inception of MLS the Cosmos should have been "served off the back burner" -(to keep the analogy going)- the financial structure of the MLS franchise is as such that the Cosmos would no longer exist as an entity. In addition it takes time to re-coup financing to bring the club back to life. But be that as it may..I'm off my point.-- Just keep providing the excellent pages that you have, and don't worry so much about the new and the old. (unless you're talking about an antique.) Those of us who remember the Cosmos from the 70's and are living through their re-birth just wanna see information about the NY Cosmos. You'll never be able to tell a true fan he is wrong about something, and as any true fan knows, the opposing opinion doesn't matter! Lol! -- BTW - in case you haven't guessed. I think they are the same club, founded in 1970. According to their time line they joined NASL in Dec 1970. The name Cosmos was picked from a fan competition in Feb 1971. [1] Here's the conundrum... which came first the chicken or the egg? the club or the name? If the club became a member of the NASL in Dec 1970 were they a club before they were named? or did they only become a club when they were named NY Cosmos in Feb of 1971? So is their Founding date Dec 1970 or Feb 1971? Lol! -- Anyway, thanks for doing your jobs and keep up the good work! 184.153.208.211 ( talk) 02:31, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
References
At the end of the day, they're the same club, but a different team. Yes they have spent some time "away" but they are still the same club so the two pages should be merged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heyguysimjakob ( talk • contribs) 04:10, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I realize that this has been discussed multiple times, but I'll start a new discussion for the sake of those who missed the earlier ones and want to add value to the debate now, or who want to attempt to change consensus.
The first thing to recognize is that MLS and NASL are different leagues. In MLS, teams are actually franchises of the MLS brand. The league holds all of the player contracts as well. I'm not sure what the legal status of ownership or player contracts are in NASL, but if the initial propositions made by Vancouver, Montreal and the other teams were carried forward, each team may be its own legal entity. That may lend credibility to the argument that the current Cosmos are an extension to the original Cosmos as some legal rights were purchased. Without knowing what those rights are and what rights are controlled by the league, we can't compare.
And the argument about teams moving up to MLS, that may be an extension of this argument. Vancouver Whitecaps continue to exist as a separate entity outside of MLS, so if that league fails, the club should be able to continue to operate at some level, however, the senior mens team is a franchise of MLS and legally a separate entity that continues to have ties with the other legal entity. I don't know if that's the case with the current Cosmos.
However, until that is resolved, I don't think there is any expectation that the two articles or associated templates should be at all linked. Doing so is a bad idea and will confuse readers. Discussions of history should commence with the formation of the group in 2009 and not in the 1970s. Mentioning that rights were transferred or purchased is fine, but stating or even suggesting that the current team shares its history with that earlier team is simply wrong. Taking queues from Template:Seattle Sounders FC, Template:Portland Timbers and Template:Vancouver Whitecaps, keep the histories clearly separated and clearly define the current entity from the previous ones.
Also, if editors would like to argue that soccer fans from other cities should not be discussing or even editing this article, don't bother. It won't fly. I likely attended New York Cosmos matches before you were born and I was around when this current NASL was born and read a lot about it. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 00:55, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
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The article as it stands gives the impression that the Cosmos wanted to join the MLS, but that inability to secure a new stadium prevented this. From what I recall, they wanted a new stadium, and MLS tried their best to stop this.
Dbaxter42 ( talk) 21:03, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
References
My edit was reverted, but I think it causes more confusion to have the original club's founding date in the Infobox, even in a footnote. Stating that this club was founded on "August 1, 2010" makes it clear it's not the same as the old club, and then footnoting it with the old club's date seems to muddy those waters. I think it's clearer without - does anyone agree? SixFourThree ( talk) 19:44, 28 June 2017 (UTC)SixFourThree
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According to the source cited [2], the Cosmos have not joined the NPSL. Rather, they and ten other clubs "have launched a new league in association with the NPSL". Interestingly, the name of the new league was not included in that announcement. It was previously rumored that the league would be called "NPSL Pro", but the league's (and teams') press releases don't specify anything at all, either a new name or playing under the same name as the current semi-pro league. I am editing the article to reflect that, and we can fill in the new league's name once it is announced. SixFourThree ( talk) 21:42, 7 December 2018 (UTC)SixFourThree
We are currently showing all the Cosmos B players as though they were on the first team roster. I'm going to remove them for now, as @ Oknazevad: did before (which was reverted anonymously and without either comment or discussion). The first team remains on hiatus until the Founders' Cup starts later this season, at which point the roster should be returned to this page with whatever players make an appearance. We don't list the B team's kit supplier or shirt sponsor here, we shouldn't list the roster either. SixFourThree ( talk) 14:29, 25 June 2019 (UTC)SixFourThree
The Cosmos player stats within Team Records (top goalscorer, top assists, most appearances) have not been updated since mid-season 2016. To update these now would be a large task since I can't find a definitive ranking from the Cosmos website or anywhere else online. This out of date information should be removed, Year-by Year results could be moved to a a 2nd sub-heading in History, and Club Captains could be updated and moved to the Players and staff section. ColeTrain4EVER ( talk) 16:26, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
For a few years, this page had a data mix between the first team New York Cosmos and New York Cosmos B. Once the NASL ceased play / cancelled the 2018 season, the Cosmos themselves made public statements saying they would "field a team" in the NPSL. [1] This was different from the Jacksonville Armada, who moved their entire first team into the NPSL and replaced the U-23 team it had there. [2] I would have also made this case for the seperation of Miami FC & Miami FC 2, however when MF2 reverted back to the first team in 2019 that sort of cemented that they were, in fact, the same entity. In this case though, New York Cosmos B was already a thing before the NASL collapsed and it remained a thing officially and records state as much for both the league and competitions such as the U.S. Open Cup (which list the team as New York Cosmos B). [3]
For history and clarity sake, the year-by-year section should not track the information of New York Cosmos B during the 2018 and 2019 seasons. ColeTrain4EVER ( talk) 15:17, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
References
![]() | New York Cosmos (2010) was a Sports and recreation good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
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Current status: Former good article nominee |
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Can we look for some consensus here? I'm thinking that the new Cosmos are an actual continuation of the original club, since there is an unbroken chain of ownership. This isn't a new organization trying to revive an old brand. Actually, the Cosmos now are in the same business they've been in since 1985 - youth soccer. I'm not sure this warrants separate pages. Thoughts? SixFourThree ( talk) 14:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)SixFourThree
This article is about a sports organization mainly recognized by it's professional football/soccer team. However even when this team was disolved in 1985 the organization under the name New York Cosmos kept participating in other activities as promoting youth soccer camps.
Now they have re-founded the team only. Not the club or the organization itself, just the team. Is more like a frachise reactivation similar to waht happened with the San Jose Earthquakes. The team's name, logo, history and statistics were not transferred to the Houston Dynamo and remained inactive in San Jose until the Earthquakes were reactivated in 2007.
Even if you want to consider that the Cosmos ceased to exist there is the case of ACF Fiorentina whose article says: "The italian club was relegated at the end of the 2001–02 season and went into judicially controlled administration in June 2002. This form of bankruptcy (sports companies cannot exactly fail in this way in Italy, but they can suffer a similar procedure) meant that the club was refused a place in Serie B for the 2002–03 season, and as a result effectively ceased to exist."
Then it follows "The club was promptly re-established in August 2002 as Associazione Calcio Fiorentina e Florentia Viola with shoe and leather entrepreneur Diego Della Valle as new owner, and was admitted into Serie C2, the fourth tier of Italian football. The only player to remain at the club in its new incarnation was Angelo Di Livio, whose commitment to club's cause further endeared him to the fans. Helped by Di Livio and 30-goal striker Christian Riganò, the club won its Serie C2 group with considerable ease, which would normally have led to a promotion to Serie C1. However, due to the bizarre Caso Catania (Catania Case) the club skipped Serie C1 and was admitted into Serie B, something that was only made possible by the Italian Football Federation's decision to resolve the Catania situation by increasing the number of teams in Serie B from 20 to 24 and promoting Fiorentina for "sports merits". In the 2003 off-season, the club also bought back the right to use the Fiorentina name and the famous shirt design, and re-incorporated itself as ACF Fiorentina".
As you can see the "Fiorenina" kept it's history, it's legacy and all the honors that the club achieved through it's history. Why can't be the same with the Cosmos? -- Locopunkie ( talk) 22:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Personally id change the main article into New York Cosmos (NASL) and then when the current New York Comos are granted MLS status change that page into New York Cosmos(MLS) Welshman25 ( talk) 19:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
The issue for me here is that the Cosmos organisation never actually shut down – the men's team may have stopped, but the actual organisation continued. I personally would wait until the Cosmos are granted some sort of right of succession from the original NASL club by MLS, and see what the club itself claims to be its foundation date in the coming months. For now, I'd keep the status quo. – Cliftonian the orangey bit 07:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
————
The distinction is this — Before August 1, 2010, there was no New York Cosmos organization that openly declared its existence. That day at Copa NYC was the grand announcement establishing itself to the public. There are news reports and press releases to back this fact up. Between the folding of the original Cosmos and the announcement of the new one, there was no professional sports team or organization. There was only a rights holder to the "Cosmos" name who could use it as he wished. We all know of the soccer camps, ownership of old videos and trophies, etc., but this does not mean there was a living, operating soccer franchise or football club. This man was not the New York Cosmos - he was just a man who owned the New York Cosmos name. And now he sold his rights to the name to a group that is - from the ground up - creating a brand new organization that did not exist beforehand. If we take the Cosmos name out of the equation, everything that is being created is original. By any other name, we'd all consider this to be the start of something fresh. Just because they bought the right to use an old name does not mean they are the same old team. -- Blackbox77 ( talk) 07:16, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
————
In the English language, the word "the" is only capitalized at the beginning of a sentence. Why does one user insist on capitalizing "the" in every instance it is before the name "New York Cosmos." KitHutch ( talk) 17:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Cliftonian, you did a great job on the article rewrite not too long ago. The details, sources, etc. were very much needed and the article is better for it. Now that I have some time, I will make a couple of critiques. 1) There seems to be too much info about the original Cosmos. While important details and relevant connections to the NASL club should of course be stressed, there seems to be a lot of extra background that doesn't have any direct bearing on the modern day incarnation. For example, do we need to know who original owned the first Cosmos, how many championships they won, and the players they signed to further this page's focus? Such information seems best left to the NASL club's article where those details are highly relevant and needed. 2) Similar to my first point, the images you added seem to be only partially important to the article's overall point. Yes - Pele, Cantona, and Chinaglia are all relevant to the modern day Cosmos. But an image of Chinaglia in his playing days - or any original Cosmos player - seems out of context no matter how important they are. Those images seem best left to articles about them and the clubs they played for. (I'd also make the pics a bit smaller but that's not really a big deal). I'll go ahead and be WP:Bold and make some edits but don't feel like I can't go back and compromise. -- Blackbox77 ( talk) 07:16, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Is the status implied by this article; that the New York Cosmos are now a separate entity from the original Cosmos; verified by credible third party sources? Or do available sources present the Cosmos as a single established entity? What role do Wikipedia editors have in determining this, and how much of that rests with the current trademark holder? unak 1978 03:54, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Comment - No merge These pages should absoluetely not be merged. Just because someone keeps a trademark active for 25 years and sells it to a newly formed group does not make it a continuation of the NASL team. For all we know at this point, this new group will always stay a youth academy and never be a pro team. Plently of new teams tank on the identity of an older teams either by reregisterin a trademark or buying it from its current holder. Baltimore Orioles, Cincinnati Reds, San Jose Earthquakes, Vancouver Canucks, San Francisco Seals (ice hockey) are just a few of many examples of this. Just because an organization's marketing department claims the history of something that came before does not make it true. Take the Washington Nationals for instance. They claim the history of 3 teams and market themselves with two founding dates Washington Nationals: Since 1969 or 1905? Cmjc80 ( talk) 23:10, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
That summer, the club called in the Provisional Liquidator and shortly afterwards, the club was wound up and the gates to Ayresome Park were padlocked. Without the £350,000 capital required for Football League registration, a new rule, it seemed inevitable that the club would fold permanently. However, Steve Gibson, a member of the board at the time, brought together a consortium and with ten minutes to spare before the deadline, they completed their registration with the Football League for the 1986–87 season. Following the registration came both a change of club crest and a change of the official company name to Middlesbrough Football and Athletic Club (1986) Ltd.
Merge It seems clear to me that although the Cosmos stopped fielding teams, the youth camps continued until the whole company was sold to the new ownership group. I'd also like to go back to Unak78's point:
The Cosmos clearly assume the history of the original club, commissioning this limited-edition cap featuring the new crest and stars for each NASL championship. [1] I don't know that it should be our decision to make a different claim. SixFourThree ( talk) 22:08, 26 January 2011 (UTC)SixFourThree
UPDATE: A request for verification has been sent to the New York Cosmos. In the interest of transparency I will post the nature of the email that was sent to them on behalf of myself and 'WikiProject Football'.
I apologize for taking so long to send this correspondence. In the future I intend to send similar requests for clarification to MLS, Sounders FC, Whitecaps FC, and the Portland Timbers. However as the Cosmos are currently an independant organization I have contacted them alone. I hope to to hear from them soon. When I have thier response I will post it here.
As to Cmjc80 ( talk · contribs)'s example of the Washington Nationals, at no point does he address the issue of Verifiability, which is one of Wikipedia's main Policies. To the specifics, verifiability went first to MLB who enabled the Nationals to establish thier history for themselves. If there was confusion, it was in the Nationals themselve attempting to satisfy to different segments of nostalgia before finally settling on 1969. The author of the article relates the confusion this causes, but at no point suggests that MLB or the Nationals do not have the authority to determine thier official franchise history. Had the Nationals decided initially on 1905 as thier founding and we chose to post 1969 here we would be violating Wikipedia policy for Verifiability. There can be no grey area here. We don't have the authority to make judgement calls here. Cmjc80 ( talk · contribs), this is not intended to be a slight, but I suggest you read Wikipedia's policies and understand them for yourself. unak 1978 00:13, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I guess this clarifies the issue: this article from the Cosmos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.235.85.45 ( talk) 23:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
"40th Birthday" article Just thought I'd post this article from the Cosmos, I think it's relevant to the above debate. – Cliftonian the orangey bit 04:50, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
I guess this clarifies the issue: this article from the Cosmos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.235.85.45 ( talk) 23:22, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
These soccer camps are a major sticking point and it needs to be understood they do not matter whatsoever to the discussion. The youth soccer camps were not apart of the New York Cosmos football club proper. These camps (operated by Pinton's company Soccer Camps of America, Inc.) used the name "Cosmos" because Pinton himself owned the right to use the name —- not because the former NASL institution still existed. Pinton via Cosmos Soccer Club, Inc. (now an LLC) - an entirely separate legal entity - owned the "Cosmos" trademark, trophies, etc. Because he bestowed these legally and organizationally separate camps with the permission to use the name, it does not mean these youth camps have anything to do with the correct "lineage" of the NY Cosmos. Cosmos Soccer Club, Inc. is the only legal entity we should be focusing on.
Cosmos Soccer Club, Inc. was the name of the corporation setup to run the New York Cosmos when the club was owned by Warner Bros. The corporation was bought by Chinaglia's group and eventually moved on to Pinton when the team folded. Now when we look at nycosmos.com today, it is New York Cosmos, LLC. running the show. This corporate entity first filed with the state of New York on April 30, 2010 ( link). The date is irrelevant other than to show there wasn't just a simple name change. This is a brand new company that bought the rights to use the "Cosmos" name. It did not buy a soccer club as the soccer club folded in 1985. A corporation continuing to exist as the legal owner of a trademark does not mean the New York Cosmos survived. Unlike Fiorentina and Luton Town that had different legal entities continue to field teams year after year, there is no such lineage to point to with the Cosmos. The club and soccer organization folded. Now a brand new club is being started from the ground up by Kemsley's group. They could have named this club anything they wanted but instead they bought the rights to the "Cosmos" name. They did not purchase a soccer club from Pinton. -- Blackbox77 ( talk) 08:28, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Here is an article that states, "The Cosmos were the flagbearer of the United States' North American Soccer League but they folded in 1985 after the league's collapse. Kemsley bought the naming rights and has Pele on board as club president. It is clear from this article that it is NOT the same franchise, but that someone just bought the old logo. Therefore, the articles should NOT be merged. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/867893/eric-cantona-back-in-football-with-new-york-cosmos?cc=5901
Oppose merge - even if the two teams are legally the same entity, there is no requirement that they be merged. Just note that this team is the same legal entity as the old one. We have plenty of sports teams with separated articles when warranted, e.g., Montreal Expos, History of the Brooklyn Dodgers. And given the 25 year or so gap between the activity of the two teams, and lack of continuity in anything that anyone but a lawyer would care about, a separate article for each seems warranted. Rlendog ( talk) 19:09, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Looking through this long discussion about whether to merge this article with the one on the original team, I see arguments that fail to acknowledge a fundamental truth: teams in US sports leagues are not clubs in the European sense, they are franchises granted by the league within which they operate. Subsequently, the soccer camps run under the Cosmos name were not a case of a club not fielding a top-flight squad; the usage of those terms in that fashion are meaningless in the US sports context.
The camps were a completely separate entity that just used the name. They were not a continuation of the NASL franchise's operations; those operations ceased when the NASL, which granted the franchise in the first place, ceased to exist. Nor are the new owners of the trademarks reviving the old NASL franchise, as there's no such franchise to operate; they seek a new franchise in MLS, albeit one that would use an old name (And, as an MLS franchise, they technically wouldn't even own it; MLS's single-entity structure, where all teams are owned by the league, means that they would be operators only.)
This franchise model is also why teams move in US leagues, and don't in European leagues (Milton Keyes Dons, an ever contentious exception, notwithstanding). The movement of a team to a new city is the modification of the territorial rights that are part of the franchise to operate a team.
Now, I will acknowledge that the distinction is often over looked at lower levels of play, such as independent league baseball or lower minor leagues in hockey, where leagues merge and reorganize on occasion. But that doesn't change that these new owners of the Cosmos trademarks are pursuing the securing of a new franchise in a new league, not continuing operations persuant to the same franchise in the same league. oknazevad ( talk) 06:51, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
When will the New York Cosmos begin its activity at the USA national leagues?
Cumbas2010 08:30, 24 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cumbas2010 ( talk • contribs)
I think that it is necessary to add in the section stadium that almost surely the first MLS season of the Cosmos in 2013 will be played at Citi Field stadium. Thank you and compliments for this great page !!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.75.114.154 ( talk) 17:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't know if it's necessary, but I have some pics I took at Paul Scholes' testimonial on 5th August that I'd be willing to upload to add to the article (as it's the new NYC first game). However, I've never uploaded a pic to wiki before (so have no idea on the various licences available), and I'm unsure if I can upload pics as an IP (I have a named account, just haven't used it for a few years). I'll be away from a PC for a couple of weeks, but if the pics are wanted, and someone is willing to help with the uploads, then I can look into adding them when I return. 86.180.186.203 ( talk) 15:37, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't the 'Blackout Kit' that debuted a few months ago be included as the Away kit? 12.96.87.102 ( talk) 16:22, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Because there is yet no real club and only those working behind the scenes to one day start a true club, might a better opening line be "The New York Cosmos are a proposed American soccer club based in New York City"? Much of this article has jumped the gun giving credence to this investment group implying they are a real sporting organization like any other team. I think it is important to highlight the fact this article is talking about an as-of-now proposed soccer club. -- Blackbox77 ( talk) 02:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 11:46, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
New York Cosmos (2010) →
New York Cosmos – This page needs to be moved from "New York Cosmos (2010)" to "New York Cosmos" to accompany the move of "New York Cosmos" to "New York Cosmos (1971-1985)". However, because that move left "New York Cosmos" as a redirect to "New York Cosmos (1971-1985)", this cannot be completed without the help of an administrator. --
Fifty7 (
talk)
17:51, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Maybe instead of deciding whether to support or oppose now, we should debate if the new Cosmos will ever be considered WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I'm sure there are those that think they are now, those that think they will/should never be, and those that are undecided. For those that "oppose for now," if not now then when? It may be better to decide if there will be a point in the future when this team will definitively deserve the main article title. Maybe when they start to sign players? Date of their first game? Enter MLS? Last longer than the original Cosmos? -- Blackbox77 ( talk) 23:23, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
I just sat here and read the whole page of talk about whether or not the NY Cosmos are the same. I don't think you are ever going to get a 100% consensus on the subject. This is one that could go all the way to the supreme court. Whether or not there are 2 pages or 1 page for the NY Cosmos doesn't really matter. What matters is that the information on any and all pages is verifiable and/or correct. If you have two pages, each one should reference the other. If you have one, all the information should be included. --I did have one thought though. Wasn't there a reference to the Cosmos "folding" _after_ the first NASL went out of business? If there was no league to play in, why keep a team? The leading opponent to the "team continuity" theory (was it blackbox?) stated that you cant have a soccer/football club without a team and staff. Is a club a club without a league or opponents? And if you are a club with no league or opponents, should you keep paying a team and staff? It seems to me, without a league to play in, the only way to keep the club alive and "simmering on the back burner" for the future is to train new players with the hopes of entering a new league. Hence the continuing soccer camps. Although a point may be made that with the inception of MLS the Cosmos should have been "served off the back burner" -(to keep the analogy going)- the financial structure of the MLS franchise is as such that the Cosmos would no longer exist as an entity. In addition it takes time to re-coup financing to bring the club back to life. But be that as it may..I'm off my point.-- Just keep providing the excellent pages that you have, and don't worry so much about the new and the old. (unless you're talking about an antique.) Those of us who remember the Cosmos from the 70's and are living through their re-birth just wanna see information about the NY Cosmos. You'll never be able to tell a true fan he is wrong about something, and as any true fan knows, the opposing opinion doesn't matter! Lol! -- BTW - in case you haven't guessed. I think they are the same club, founded in 1970. According to their time line they joined NASL in Dec 1970. The name Cosmos was picked from a fan competition in Feb 1971. [1] Here's the conundrum... which came first the chicken or the egg? the club or the name? If the club became a member of the NASL in Dec 1970 were they a club before they were named? or did they only become a club when they were named NY Cosmos in Feb of 1971? So is their Founding date Dec 1970 or Feb 1971? Lol! -- Anyway, thanks for doing your jobs and keep up the good work! 184.153.208.211 ( talk) 02:31, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
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At the end of the day, they're the same club, but a different team. Yes they have spent some time "away" but they are still the same club so the two pages should be merged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heyguysimjakob ( talk • contribs) 04:10, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I realize that this has been discussed multiple times, but I'll start a new discussion for the sake of those who missed the earlier ones and want to add value to the debate now, or who want to attempt to change consensus.
The first thing to recognize is that MLS and NASL are different leagues. In MLS, teams are actually franchises of the MLS brand. The league holds all of the player contracts as well. I'm not sure what the legal status of ownership or player contracts are in NASL, but if the initial propositions made by Vancouver, Montreal and the other teams were carried forward, each team may be its own legal entity. That may lend credibility to the argument that the current Cosmos are an extension to the original Cosmos as some legal rights were purchased. Without knowing what those rights are and what rights are controlled by the league, we can't compare.
And the argument about teams moving up to MLS, that may be an extension of this argument. Vancouver Whitecaps continue to exist as a separate entity outside of MLS, so if that league fails, the club should be able to continue to operate at some level, however, the senior mens team is a franchise of MLS and legally a separate entity that continues to have ties with the other legal entity. I don't know if that's the case with the current Cosmos.
However, until that is resolved, I don't think there is any expectation that the two articles or associated templates should be at all linked. Doing so is a bad idea and will confuse readers. Discussions of history should commence with the formation of the group in 2009 and not in the 1970s. Mentioning that rights were transferred or purchased is fine, but stating or even suggesting that the current team shares its history with that earlier team is simply wrong. Taking queues from Template:Seattle Sounders FC, Template:Portland Timbers and Template:Vancouver Whitecaps, keep the histories clearly separated and clearly define the current entity from the previous ones.
Also, if editors would like to argue that soccer fans from other cities should not be discussing or even editing this article, don't bother. It won't fly. I likely attended New York Cosmos matches before you were born and I was around when this current NASL was born and read a lot about it. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 00:55, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
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The article as it stands gives the impression that the Cosmos wanted to join the MLS, but that inability to secure a new stadium prevented this. From what I recall, they wanted a new stadium, and MLS tried their best to stop this.
Dbaxter42 ( talk) 21:03, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
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My edit was reverted, but I think it causes more confusion to have the original club's founding date in the Infobox, even in a footnote. Stating that this club was founded on "August 1, 2010" makes it clear it's not the same as the old club, and then footnoting it with the old club's date seems to muddy those waters. I think it's clearer without - does anyone agree? SixFourThree ( talk) 19:44, 28 June 2017 (UTC)SixFourThree
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According to the source cited [2], the Cosmos have not joined the NPSL. Rather, they and ten other clubs "have launched a new league in association with the NPSL". Interestingly, the name of the new league was not included in that announcement. It was previously rumored that the league would be called "NPSL Pro", but the league's (and teams') press releases don't specify anything at all, either a new name or playing under the same name as the current semi-pro league. I am editing the article to reflect that, and we can fill in the new league's name once it is announced. SixFourThree ( talk) 21:42, 7 December 2018 (UTC)SixFourThree
We are currently showing all the Cosmos B players as though they were on the first team roster. I'm going to remove them for now, as @ Oknazevad: did before (which was reverted anonymously and without either comment or discussion). The first team remains on hiatus until the Founders' Cup starts later this season, at which point the roster should be returned to this page with whatever players make an appearance. We don't list the B team's kit supplier or shirt sponsor here, we shouldn't list the roster either. SixFourThree ( talk) 14:29, 25 June 2019 (UTC)SixFourThree
The Cosmos player stats within Team Records (top goalscorer, top assists, most appearances) have not been updated since mid-season 2016. To update these now would be a large task since I can't find a definitive ranking from the Cosmos website or anywhere else online. This out of date information should be removed, Year-by Year results could be moved to a a 2nd sub-heading in History, and Club Captains could be updated and moved to the Players and staff section. ColeTrain4EVER ( talk) 16:26, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
For a few years, this page had a data mix between the first team New York Cosmos and New York Cosmos B. Once the NASL ceased play / cancelled the 2018 season, the Cosmos themselves made public statements saying they would "field a team" in the NPSL. [1] This was different from the Jacksonville Armada, who moved their entire first team into the NPSL and replaced the U-23 team it had there. [2] I would have also made this case for the seperation of Miami FC & Miami FC 2, however when MF2 reverted back to the first team in 2019 that sort of cemented that they were, in fact, the same entity. In this case though, New York Cosmos B was already a thing before the NASL collapsed and it remained a thing officially and records state as much for both the league and competitions such as the U.S. Open Cup (which list the team as New York Cosmos B). [3]
For history and clarity sake, the year-by-year section should not track the information of New York Cosmos B during the 2018 and 2019 seasons. ColeTrain4EVER ( talk) 15:17, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
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