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" Pieter Minuit, was a German-born Walloon who spoke English and worked for a Dutch company."
Do you mean simply he *also* knew a rather third-rate language called English, after he was from French-speaking background, born in Germany, working for a Dutch Company in an area where many French-Speaking settlers settle... Why would he [only ?] speak English?
And if he knew also English, how well?
In any case I think saying "Peter Minuit" spoke English without a qualificative is very misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.143.217.66 ( talk) 09:35, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Where does the currently displayed flag come from? I can find no reference to it anywhere besides halfway down this Alternate History site : http://pmburgess.blogspot.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.95.11.114 ( talk) 00:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure if that's right; Although the Dutch name or the colony is singular, the English name might well be plural (compare with modern day Nederland vs. the Netherlands). -- Rik
This article seems to be a double of New Netherlands. I've seen the name without an -s before in other sources. Does anybody know which one is correct and why? -- User:Jheijmans
If the trading stations were consolidated in 1621, when were they established? --rmhermen
The accompanying map shows Fort Nassau in Delaware, but omits the Albany NY location of the like-names Fort.
Bruce.Olsen (
talk)
16:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
The sale of Manhattan is very poorly documented, as far as I know. Can the following be traced to a reliable source?
For example, the people from whom Minuit "bought" Manhattan did not live on the island, and probably thought that they were selling a share in the hunting rights."
A good discussion on the sale of Manhattan is found in Edwin G. Burrows and Mike Wallace "Gotham. A History of New York City" 1999. see introduction xiv-xvi and the chapter "The men who bought Manhattan, 14-27. They document the roots of this myth. while also comparing with the better documented dutch purchase of staten Island. It was paid for not in guilders but trade goods such as axes, scissors, kettles and so on. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Carlpo (
talk •
contribs) 14:06, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Carlpo (
talk)
14:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
The names Nova Belgica (from Gallia Belgica, the Roman province) and Novi Belgii have both been used, should we mention that? There seem to has been a mix up quite early in history between the names Belgica and Belgium -- moyogo 16:39, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)
Weren't the southern netherlands (belgium) occupied by the spanish/french during the colonization of NY?
Being Dutch, I know that "factorij" is a Dutch word, and means trading outpost, but I think the plural form is factorijen. Was it spelled factorijs in the 17th century?
Can somebody add what this area currently is to the first sentence of the article? i.e. was the territory claimed by the United Provinces (the Netherlands) on the eastern coast of North America in the 17th century, corresponding to the present.... 218.103.132.85 16:51, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
The Author Russell Shorto has produced a book - based on the New Netherlands Project's work, and with their cooperation - that puts much of all this informationh between two covers. Doubleday published it in 1994, and it has been kept in print ever since. I put the information for the book in the Reference section.
SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 20:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
The book was published in March 2004, not 1994. It is a historical novel like The DaVinci Code. Need we say more? If Wikepedia wants to have any credibility it must focus on the neutral historical facts which ought to tell the story implicitly rather than opinionated or prejudiced story telling.
Historians may disagree with Shorto, a journalist, on interpretation, but it is not fair to call his book historical fiction. It is history based on research in primary and secondary sources and containing no fictional characters, episodes, etc. 209.170.255.14 16:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)Paul Otto
So some of the recent additions were copyvio from http://www.tolerancepark.org/. Rather than try to sort through which parts are or are not copyvio right away, I've initially reverted all the additions. Tomorrow I'll go through and reinstate some of them as I check them individually. — Laura Scudder ☎ 18:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
(Wikipedia Editor Laura Scudder protects this web site which belongs to broken history. It contains factual errors, misinformation, disinformation, and personal judgments which are irrelevant to New Netherland and would more properly belongs to the history of other colonies.)
OK Now I have found you. TolerancePark.org has been written by me, no one else. Everything is original research based on mostly primary, not secondary sources obtained from many libraries in many countries. DeKoning
To understand those instructions one needs to hire a law firm or spend many hours figuring out what the site wants. Is there an easy way such as, e.g., sending you an e-mail from the site TolerancePark.org? What is your e-mail address? DeKoning. Mine at the web address is President@TolerancePark.org
Ms. Scudder, (1) I would like to replace the very confusing, wrongly colored, later issued Visscher map on the site with the earlier properly colored map of New Netherland on the TolerancePark.org site. That map I have also given to the NNP.org which should have it somewhere on its site. How can that be done?
(2) I would like to add one engraving of the east coast made by Willem Blaeu c. 1621; right underneath the Block map. I have that on my computer and, perhaps, it can be found somehwere else on the internet. Can it be imported from my computer? How do I do that?
(3) The Blaeu engraving on the New Netherland site (wrongly dated as from 1643 by Johannes Blaeu as it was engraved in 1635 by his father Willem Blaeu who died in 1638) is really the engraved version of the Block map, with west facing what is now ususally north. A better map would be the first ENGRAVED map depicting the three colonies from the 1625 book "New World",, second edition of 1630 by De Laet. What do you think? DeKoning
DONE!
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This is to authorize that Wikimedia or Wikepedia is allowed to quote from www.TolerancePark.org or use its pictures with regard to New Netherland, New Amsterdam, Manhattan and Governors Island. If you have any questions please respond to President@TolerancePark.org
Ms. Scudder, May I now post the most recently corrected prose? DeKoning
The following is a discussion about a joker who made a deceptive map of New Sweden and insisted that it reigns on the New Netherland site. Because the map is meant to mislead, it doesn’t belong on either the New Sweden or New Netherland site. The New Sweden map wasn’t even on the New Sweden site so that is where I moved it to. Yet, a group of self-appointed Wikipedia editors, apparently more versed in computers or language rather than New Netherland history, insisted on putting the map back on the New Netherland site. The map evidences the dictatorship of ignorance with which these pages and New Netherland history are permeated. March 24, 2006, DeKoning:
March 7, 2006; the map of New Sweden interposed on the New Netherland Wikipedia entry is not contemporary. It is of recent creation which (if at all, because of its interpretive purpose) belongs to an entry on Wikipedia about New Sweden (definitely not on the New Netherland page) which was established by various disenfranchised and disgruntled members of the Dutch West India Company (including Willem Usselincxs, Samuel Blommaert and Peter Minuit) under the auspices of the Swedish king. Petrus Stuyvesant had been ordered by the States General to retake the area which he did on September 25,1655, with a fleet of seven ships and a force comprising 317 soldiers and over 300 sailors. He was told to do "his utmost to revenge this misfortune not only by restoring matters to their former condition, but also by driving the Swedes at the same time from the river as they did to us". DEKONING —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
Mr. Adamsky, The map of New Sweden is wrongly annotated and its interpretation is historically incorrect. It has therefore no comtemporary meaning unless you produce an engraved map of New Sweden engraved in that specific year 1650. Even then, the map belongs on the New Sweden site only and not on the New Netherland site. Please, be respectful. DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
Mr. Adamsky, What is your interest in insisting on posting a modern interpretive map about New Sweden on a New Netherland site? If people want to know about New Sweden they can go to that Wikipedia site without any problem. The three maps (did you call them paintings?) on the New Netherland site are of the 17th century and NOT, as you appear to claim, from a later date. Not only are you disrespectful of the New Netherland site but you are also ruinous of its integrity and therefore guilty of vandalism. If you read the historical facts carefully, then you know that your modern New Sweden map's caption is erroneous because of, what you say, "both areas are shown in relation to each other". You may need to study history a bit more to understand that one area was situated temporarily contained in another one rather than being (wrongly colored) separate geo-political sections. If you are an expert on New Sweden history, please, focus on that site. I hope that Wikipedia editor Laura Scudder ☎ will be able to do something about that. Respectfully yours, DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
Mr. Zello, New Sweden was a transitory interposition in geo-political New Netherland. A 1648 manuscript map, engraved by Jan Jansson in 1650 may illuminate this point. New Sweden was not an adjoining complement to New Netherland as your modern interpretive map seems to want to tell with its opposite, disparate coloring. If you want to make the public believe your interpretation or would like to debate this further, you ought to do that on the Wikipedia New Sweden site. Similalry, there would be no place for modern, interpretive maps of New Holland (now Cape Cod) or New Netherland on the Wikipedia New England site. Let New England deal with its own history. Respect the history of the various colonies and don't superimpose them on top of one another to try to make a subjective point. I can't give you a clearer explanation than this. Your map requires to be on the New Sweden site only, i.e., not on the Virginia, not on the New England and not on the New Netherland site. DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
BKonrad/Zello/BigAdamsky: New Sweden was not based on (1) first discovery, (2) original exploration, surveying and mapping; and (3) first settlement. It was based on the initiative of various West India Company directors with prior New Netherland experience selling their services to Sweden. New Sweden was therefore an interjection in New Netherland and not a complement to New Netherland. The New Sweden map you are insisting on publishing on the New Netherland site should be only on the New Sweden site as that is the site that pertains to your argument which you are trying to support by your modern deception. Putting the New Sweden map on the New Netherland site belongs to broken history and is historically false. If you continue to post that map, it will be transferred to the New Sweden site. Respectfully yours. March 19, 2006, DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
The point is that it doesn't show their respective geographical positions. You need to make a new map. March 19, 2006, DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
Anyone who can read and understand the above can easily figure out that the map does NOT show the relative positions of New Netherland and New Sweden. Therefore, this map must go from the New Netherland site. March 19, 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
BKonrad, this is not about an objection. It is plainly wrong. This may be because you are visually or geographically impaired or lack even the most basic understanding of history and therefore can't understand. The map does not reflect the historical facts and that has nothing to do with my English which is rather proficient as many articles can attest to. You are just a very sloppy reader. It is so simple; New Sweden lied inside New Netherland not next to it. DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
The inability to associate text with graphics is a common deficiency among people. That is simply because so many people go through life being visually unaware. Perhaps my argument may best be explained by the analogy that, during the cold war, a part of West Germany, in the form of West Berlin, lied inside East Germany. I.e., Geographically, West Berlin was not adjacent to East Germany. Perhaps it could be so depicted as a complement to East Germany if one were to draw a population density map instead. For example, America cannot be geographically depicted as an East and West coast only because certain states have negligible population (North Dakota). Therefore, the New Sweden map is neither a historical geographical map nor a population density map and by default is an erroneous depiction. Namely:
New Netherland’s southern border started at Cape Hinlopen, just south of the Delaware Bay and so surveyed and mapped by Cornelis Hendricksz between 1613 and 1616 (the map still exists) and in 1620 by Cornelis Jacobsz May. May became New Netherland’s first director in 1624. Samuel Godijn, a director of the West India Company, had a patent for the west side of the South (Delaware) River where he built a fort and established the colony of a few dozen men at Swanendael in 1630. At least 32 of them if not all were killed by the Indians in 1632. The colony’s focus had been on the whaling industry. Another director, Albert Coenraetsz Burgh had a patent for the east side of the river. The origin and disappearance of New Netherland and New Sweden are very different and therefore need to be discussed on their own pages.
Frankly, the Wikipedia pages on 17th-century New Netherland as well as New Sweden and its associated pages have been and are still very lacking in archival truth. I have made an honest beginning with regard to the New Netherland page and some associated pages. But many of them still contain erroneous, misleading secondary information, so repeated through the ages, of prejudicial or no value to Wikipedia’s readers. I now know why no serious historian or earnest person will spend the time and effort required to make this encyclopedia a useful tool.
Having to deal with computer hackers without primary expertise or understanding on the subject matter and having nothing else to do than prejudicially torpedoing other persons’ contributions is not a winnable recipe. For BKonrad to threaten me with a childish “three strikes and you’re out” lockout is evidence of the despotic nature of this ignorance with which these Wikipedia pages are imbued.
Therefore, for as long as that New Sweden map is on the New Netherland site I will refrain from any more contributions. I will no longer remove it. I am sure that someone else will put it back. But, after today, it is entirely up to others to invite me back by removing the New Sweden map from the New Netherland site. I won’t spend one more minute on this as being a computer hacker is not my passion. DeKoning, March 20, 2006
You have behaved like a pack of bull terriers unwilling to read and understand my objective, well-supported arguments for the immediate and permanent removal of a map that serve no function on the New Netherland site as it is incongruous. Cooperation, discussion, consensus-seeking and related people skills are a two-way street, not a one-way attack. To dismiss my effort to make you understand something and calling it “incoherent rambling, bordering on ranting” is indeed a petty accusation and insulting. DeKoning March 20, 2006
It's a good idea to draw another map which shows all the claimed territory of New Netherland together with the actually settled territories (probably with darker and lighter hues). Changing the present map to show New Sweden surrounded by New Netherland seems a bit misleading to me because of mixing the two points of view (ie. actual settlement and claims). Changing the caption is absolutely OK for me. Zello 08:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with DeKoning, the picture isn't appropriate for an article about New Netherland. Especially since the actual article doesn't even mention New Sweden. And even if the article were to mention New Sweden, it would have to be more than in just one or two sentences to warrant a picture as large as this one. It is quite an interesting subject though, the history of New Sweden vis-à-vis New Netherland and probably deserves it's own article, and that article would be the proper place for the picture, not New Netherland.
If people want to see a map showing the New Netherland settlements overlaid on a contemporary map of the US, I'd be willing to make one. Dedden 19:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry but I don't get it at all. What is the reason for this new map, what is it meant to convey? The original contemporary 1650 Jansson map or the 1651 "emendata" Visscher map is infinitely better and more detailed and already contains the names mentioned on this new modern map. The Visscher map is all one would need as an authentic companion to the text and is already part of the New Netherland article. Why do we need, again, another modern map with errors and omissions like the modern New Netherland/New Sweden map which I have tried to purge from the article because it is conceptually flawed? What is the need for a modern map that repeats what is already there, i.e. the Visscher map (even though later and incorrectly colored. I had suggested to Ms. Scudder to replace it with a properly colored one)? Moreover, the whole point of this discussion has been that the Wikipedia editors, by insisting on the posting of the incorrect New Sweden/New Netherland map, used their power to be sole arbiters of cartographic information on New Netherland and New Sweden at the expense of reason and historical facts. Even though they didn't come up with or advanced any convincing arguments which would warrant the defense of the colored sections on that modern New Sweden/New Netherland map, their actions have now superseded history by pretending to know the precise position and exact geographical borders of New Sweden while misrepresenting the geographical reality of New Netherland. I had argued that New Sweden's relative coloration had no geographical relevance with regard to New Netherland and also is erroneous as to New Sweden because its borders are indeterminable. New Sweden can only be defined by its forts; not by borders. New Netherland, though, had defined coastal borders. This new modern map, however well intended by Dedden, doesn't solve the debate and would only clutter up the article, like the flawed New Sweden map is now doing. This discussion has never been about Wikipedia readers wanting "to see a map showing the New Netherland settlements overlaid on a contemporary map of the US". For that it is wholly inadequate or wanting. It had to do with Wikipedia editors wanting their way in spite of their cartographic posting being nonsensical. I had read somewhere that posting nonsense was an act of vandalism. Why do I have to uphold the integrity of an article if editors can randomly post misinformation not worthy of an encyclopedia? We don't need a new map, we only need to remove an incorrect map. DeKoning, April 30, 2006
Ms. Scudder, I can't start a new discussion with you on the pros and cons of the newest of new maps about New Netherland for modern readers. There are already hundreds of those existing as you can see, for example, on http://www.nnp.org/newvtour. I have previously told you that the correctly colored Visscher map was on that site which was taken from an orginally colored map which I own and which is also on http://tolerancepark.org/_wsn/page2.html/ and that you could use it for the Wikipedia New Netherland article. As you know, I have pledged to not contribute any longer to the article for as long as the modern New Sweden/New Netherland map is posted there by Wikipedia editors. Frankly, I am worn out on this subject and too frustrated to continue with this. Please post nonsense. Wikipedia and its readers deserve it. May 1, 2006,. DeKoning
Since Dedden's map seems to address eveyone's objections except DeKoning, I've been bold and switched to it. — Laura Scudder ☎ 23:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Dedden's map achieves next to nothing compared to contemporary maps. It doesn't even mention New Netherland's southern border at Cape Hinlopen on the 38th degree latitude nor the northern border at 42nd degrees named New Holland (now the Cape). How can this map "address everyone's objections" as I was the only one who objected to the erroneous modern map the wikipedia editors insisted on posting? The map was a historical fraud. Yet, everyone was defending the incorrectly colored deliniations of the New Netherland-New Sweden map. Deddens map doesn't accomplish anything other than showing a few scattered names overlaid on a modern map. It is irrelevant to the discussion we have had on the subject. There are more than two dozen contemporary maps of New Netherland. Why the Dedden map is posted is beyond me as Dedden's map would need serious scholarly work to be of any use to a wikipedia reader. DeKoning 14:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Following the New Sweden map discussion above, I have removed the New Sweden map once more. (1) New Sweden was an ephemeral insert in New Netherland. The latter was founded on very specific principles which didn’t include armchair claims, military conquest or trespass. The three-step process of discovery, intensive and systematic exploration and mapping, followed by initial settlement was the basis for the geographical claim of New Netherland between the 38th and 42nd parallels. (2) New Sweden was not founded on those principles and therefore didn’t have defined geographical borders. The geography of New Sweden can therefore not be drawn on an imagined geographical map made in the 21st century as it couldn’t be drawn in 1650 thus. The New Sweden map is therefore spurious. (3) A modern map, perhaps meant to show New Sweden’s population (of a little over 200 persons), would require precise knowledge of the location of each house, if they ever lived in houses rather than forts. There are no population records based on a New Sweden census. Hence, a population distribution map can also not be made. (4) Therefore, what remains is the possibility of making a map that depicts the position of the various New Sweden forts only. Such a map, however, belongs on the New Sweden article and not on the New Netherland article. For example, the Wikipedia New England article should not be required to carry in its text oversized geographical or fortification maps of New France and New Netherland as they would be impertinent to New England. (5) This tenet should be valid for the New Netherland article as well. For those Wikipedia editors who feel strongly about vandalizing the New Netherland article with an incorrect and fraudulent New Sweden map, they ought to be held accountable for providing a fully supported, convincing rationale as the basis for including such an intrusion. DeKoning April 6, 2006
Contrary to Zello’s belief, Wikipedia articles are not based on majority rule. One thousand colorblind editors asserting that grass is red will lose against one contributor who proves it to be green based on historical and scientific precedent. Removed map put up by Zello because he didn't substantiate the placement. DeKoning April 7, 2006; Removed again because of Big Adamsky's unsubstantiated posting.DeKoning April 7, 2006. Because the map is neither a cartographic portrayal of New Netherland nor of New Sweden, the caption “relative location of New Netherland and New Sweden” is nonsensical. Reversed Zello's misplaced, erroneous New Sweden posting. DeKoning April 8, 2006.
manif@hotmail.com vandalized again the New Netherland article by posting an untrue New Sweden map which is falsely created and an unequivocal historical corruption. This intrusion by “manif” cannot be justified in any way on scholarly or geo historical grounds. The map’s flawed creation, its erroneous caption and its unjustified insertion on the New Netherland article is either a deliberate attempt to corrupt the article and to deceive the reader. “Manif” must prove that the map is errorless as a geographical depiction, that its caption can be defended academically and that placing an erroneous map in the wrong article is a Wikipedia objective. The New Sweden map was removed. April 8, 2006, DeKoning
Ms. Scudder, This has nothing to do with personal attacks. It is as I said before: "the map is neither a cartographic portrayal of New Netherland nor of New Sweden, the caption “relative location of New Netherland and New Sweden” is nonsensical". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.224.88 ( talk) 18:45, 9 April 2006
I couldn't care less about editors' motives as long as the information they post is correct; i.e., fully substantiated or supported with reason in the face of being challenged factually. My behavior is solely about the issue itself and certainly not personal. If one takes it personally, that is not my problem. My efforts are directed at achieving a sense of historical integrity for which I am holding these editors accountable. Power games and threats by these editors who seem to insist on not wanting to know, to understand or, alternatively, are unwilling or incapable of understanding should be discouraged. If their posts (like the New Netherland/New Sweden map) are purely for reason of personal motive rather than the Wikipedia readers’ edification, that's fine with me. Yet, they should not be relieved from having to embrace what is truthful or supportable. I.e., personal motive AND gobbledygook are out. The entire discussion above is about ONE issue only: the editors' appropriateness of insisting on posting a map which even Big Adamsky finally admitted is wrong. He thinks however, like the other editors seemingly, that it is fine to post wrong information until the right information comes along. Frankly, that is appalling and unacceptable. Must Wikipedia readers be presented with gibberish (which therefore is a deliberate deception) until correct information becomes available or, in this case, a "correct map will be available". I have only one question all along during this discussion: What could possibly justify the insistent posting of a nonsensical New Netherland/New Sweden map? Why are you insisting on knowingly posting a distorted cartographic fabrication? April 10, 2006 DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.224.88 ( talk) 03:03, 10 April 2006
This reply from Manif@hotmail.com, upon my inquiry to him, demonstrates the haphazardness and carelessness by which these Wikipedia articles are composed. Manif put the flawed New Netherland/New Sweden map back on the article while not having seen it or participated in the discussion why it didn’t belong there. He had no understanding of the subject matter and probably had never even heard of New Netherland or New Sweden. Yet, his post of the map is seen by others as legitimate input. I suspect that this is valid for lots of editors without fundamental knowledge of New Netherland because, not too long ago, the New Netherland article was an embarrassment for an encyclopedia. Yet, most new input, founded in academic, archival knowledge, was questioned, attacked or removed. The New Netherland article was mostly defined by external and peripheral stories such as, for example, stroke-of-the-pen armchair claims by an English king, an Italian explorer who had never explored, a modern New Netherland-New Sweden map with fabricated geographical borders. These tales had nothing to do with New Netherland and therefore should not have been posted on the article. Moreover, the text was plagued with fragments from historical novels and subjective or culturally biased judgments from secondary sources about the main historical characters. The legendary heroes who had dealt with unbelievable adversity to build the foundation of this nation and its largest city were disrespectfully insulted or dismissed as extraneous: Whether it was Verhulst, Minuit, Van Twiller, Kieft or Stuyvesant, they were all ghastly people, unpopular and apparently intently resented by the population, so much so that the 1664 English invasion was welcomed by the population with open arms, if you would like to believe the article. The fact that the disputed New Sweden map is back on the article is confirmation that there is no one out there willing to maintain even a minimum standard of credibility that is worthy of an encyclopedia or to take the New Netherland article seriously. DeKoning April 10, 2006
My response to this is why do you insist on posting a gigantic modern map that is either an uninformed creation by an amateur or a deliberate deception which should have no room in an encyclopedia or on an article of New Netherland or, for that matter, of New Sweden. Doesn't your contribution qualify as unreasonable information and malicious editing? April 28, 2006. DeKoning
Your perception of my aggressive tone is dictated solely by your frustration with my unwillingness to concede to the despotism of about three persons with no historical, cartographic or geographical knowledge of the subject matter and who, under the cloak of “consensus”, are perpetuating an intolerable condition to exist on the New Netherland article. I realize that you "are getting tired of reminding me" but you should also realize that I am equally "getting tired of reminding others" that they have a responsibility and must try to understand something of which they have no knowledge of understanding. I realize that my persistent efforts to open their eyes can only be construed by them, or you, as "aggressive". However, there is no other way to get rid of that ridiculous map other than by continuing to present or explain the rationale for its immediate removal. Frankly, I am awed by your apparent singular power in this matter by overruling reason and argument in favor of superficial consensus. As with Manif@Hotmail (see above), I have no confidence that the three persons, who you state represent a "consensus", have any knowledge or understanding of the subject matter at all. They have not proven to possess such knowledge yet are insisting the map's inclusion on vague notions that the map is a nice or useful map; for whom? In the land of the blind... April 29, 2006. DeKoning
Ms. Scudder writes: “They met minimal resistance, perhaps because of the unpopularity of Stuyvesant”. This is a judgmental, subjective statement not founded in the historical facts. DeKoning
I noticed many entries based on historical novels. Scary (scholary) input. Again, I won't contribute unless the New Sweden map disappears from the New Netherland site. The inability to fight the English incursion had nothing to do with the popularity of one man, even Stuyvesant. Be that as it may, I am losing interest in discussing absurdities put up by unqualified people and correcting ignorance. DeKoning
There was only one director-general which was Stuyvesant who was never governor of New Netherland even though he was governor of Curacao. All others were just (local company) directors. As you suggested, the contents of the New Netherland article ought to be based on scholarly citations which, in turn, ought to be based on original archival records. Citations by scholars and academicians who base their writings and conclusions on erroneous secondary information, novels or deficient research should have no room on this page. Even the many English translations from the original Dutch are full of errors and evidence of Anglo-centric bias. Therefore, what is popularly known about New Netherland in three hundred years of writings is filled with Anglo-centric falsehoods which qualify as nonsense. It also finds its way onto these sites. Like, for example, on the New Amsterdam article whereon the notion is proclaimed that New Netherland was exchanged for just the tiny English island of Run situated within the Dutch East Indies. This info comes straight from the most prejudiced historical novel one could read about the subject; "Nathaniel's Nutmeg". Someone more clear headed than that Wikipedia contributor added Suriname to the swap than just Run. But why not read the original Treaty of Breda before making any entry? If the basic information on an article is already flawed to start with, why must one battle to get rid of it because the ones who put it there insist on writing fairy tales or making others believe their tales? What will you get of America's 21st-century history written entirely by citing "Arab" scholars on the subject?.
Compare your statement on the article: “They met minimal resistance from the citizens, perhaps because of the unpopularity of Stuyvesant” with Stuyvesant’s 1665 report:
“Had your formerly dutiful, but now afflicted inhabitants, on the supplicatory remonstrances of the people and our own so iterated entreaties, which must be considered almost innumerable, been helped with the long sought for settlement of the boundary, or in default thereof had they been seconded with the oft besought reinforcement of men and ships against the continual troubles, threats, encroachments and invasions of the English neighbors and government of Hartford Colony, our too powerful enemies. That assistance, nevertheless, appears to have been retarded so long that our abovementioned too powerful neighbors and enemies found themselves reinforced by four royal ships, crammed full with an extraordinary amount of men and warlike stores. Our ancient enemies throughout the whole of Long Island, both from the east end and from the villages belonging to us united with them, hemmed us by water and by land, and cut off all supplies. Powder and provisions failing, and no relief nor reinforcement being expected, we were necessitated to come to terms with the enemy, not through negelect of duty or cowardice, as many, more from passion than knowledge of the facts, have decided, but in consequence of an absolute impossibility to defend their fort, much less the city of New Amsterdam, and still less the country.”…
“many verbal warnings came from diverse country people on Long Island, who daily noticed the growing and increasing strength of the English, and gathered from their talk that their business was not only with New Netherland but with the booty and plunder, and for these were they called out and enrolled. Which was afterwards confirmed not only by the dissolute English soldiery, but even by the most steady officers and by a striking example exhibited to the colonists of New Amstel on the South Delaware River, who, notwithstanding they had offered no resistance, but requested good terms, could not obtain them, but were invaded, stripped, utterly plundered and many of them sold as slaves to Virginia”.
Do you really believe that Stuyvesant’s alleged unpopularity had anything to do with New Netherland’s provisional surrender (an Anglo centric view?). April 5, 2006 DeKoning
The article about New Netherland, section "Exploration" is prefaced as follows:
“The coast of New Netherland was previously explored in 1524 by Giovanni da Verrazano, whose expedition was financed by the citizens of Lyon, France, under the auspices of King François I. Despite this, the area was mostly ignored by Europeans for a long time afterwards.”
This claim is entirely based on just 25 words purportedly written in a log book based on what Verrazano observed: “We entered up the said river into the land about half a league, where it made a most pleasant lake about three leagues in compass.”
(1) There is, however, no record of any soundings, latitude calculations, surveys or maps or even a sensible textual description of any part of the New Netherland coast. To say that he “explored” the New Netherland coast is nothing less than a myth.
(2) To credit him with discovering New York harbor by sailing through the narrows or observing the harbor from afar is also a falsehood as the flimsy description does not support the geographical reality. Namely, his observed “lake” (ostensibly New York harbor) was not preceded by a river.
The preface, therefore, has no validity on the New Netherland article as the statement is false and its conclusion irrelevant. I removed it on April 3, 2006, DeKoning
The Adriaen Block map of 1614, belongs to the section Exploration. The oversized New Sweden map is irrelevant to that section in particular and to the New Netherland site in general as discussed above. Its overshadowing presence has no function other than to present an erroneous message.
He merely sailed northwards along the eastern coastline, made one landing (nobody knows where exactly), and moved on. As you said, he "can pefectly well have explored the coast" but there is no textual proof or visual evidence. Seeing the moon doesn't mean one has EXPLORED the moon. It takes more to qualify as an explorer than just seeing. For Verrazano to sail along the coast and to see a "lake" should not bestow him with the honor of being quoted on the New Netherland article with having explored the coast line from Cape Hinlopen to Cape Cod, the New Netherland coastline, or to have discovered New York harbor. He simply did not EXPLORE the New Netherland coast line as the statement is based on zero evidence. DeKoning April 6, 2006
Exploring has to do with inquiring, examining, studying, searching or investigating systematically. With regard to the New Netherland coast line, Verrazano can not be called an explorer at all. The one explorer who more than deserves that title is only Adriaen Block. I didn't know it was your quote but it certainly doesn't measure up to the definition of exploring, even if defined as "slightly" rigorous. DeKoning
I suppose one could debate the meaning of exploring, but professional historians have described Verrazzano and other 16th-century mariners "investigating" the North American coast as explorers. As to whether or not Verrazzano "explored" New York Bay, a careful examination of the cartographic evidence (see Stokes, The Iconography of Manhattan Island) would support such a claim. I repeat this claim in the first chapter of my book where I identify two other "explorers" of the region after Verrazzano and before Henry Hudson. 209.170.255.14 16:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)Paul Otto
I have removed the paragraph below from the heading "English Incursions" as it has no relevance there. Frankly, the Flushing Remonstrance is something that belongs particulary to Stuyvesant, not New Netherland. Therefore, it should be discussed on the Petrus Stuyvesant page. It is a difficult to understand, complex, idiosyncratic subject matter and requires historical, contextual understanding of both Stuyvesant, New Netherland and patria. DeKoning April 6, 2006
"The
Flushing Remonstrance objected among other things to his ban on
Quakers as an infringement on the religious freedom of fellow Christians and Dutch citizens. The capture of the city resulted in the
Second Anglo-Dutch War between England and the Dutch Republic."
While I suppose it's necessary to have it somewhere to keep things clear, it seems very odd to me as a casual reader that so much of the lead paragraph of this article is dedicated to explicating the fact that "Belgium" in the 17th century was used for the modern Netherlands. The lead should be a succinct summary of what the article is about -- this is not a primary issue. Is it really necessary to use the Lating name in the lead at all? Can't this material be moved to a footnote or something? -- Jfruh ( talk) 01:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree wholly as in nearly ALL the maps of New Netherland (many dozens) the Latin Appelation of Novum Belgium, Novi Belgii, Novo Belgico etc. was used. New Netherland can therefore only be understood in that geographical and historical context. Without that historical and geographical link, the province of New Netherland in North America cannot be understood by anyone as they will confuse the current Kingdom of Belgium with New Netherland as an extension of the Dutch Republic or Belgium Feoderatum.
DeKoning
This change of degrees latitude from historical fact to a shot in the dark by 24.140.20.205 is unfounded and cannnot be supported in any way. The correct degrees latitude was supported by a link to slides of contemporary period maps which was removed by Laura Scudder on August 18 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.148.137 ( talk) 15:46, 15 September 2006
It seems to me that the articles New Netherland Company and Adriaen Block are very intimately related to this article, however no mention of either name or links to these article exist here. I am hardly an expert on Colonial Dutch exploration, I'm hoping that someone with more knowledge on the subject can straighten out the relationships between the articles. -- Elipongo 20:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Eh? When all private contracts were invalidated, didn't that have the opposite effec from voiding maritime law? Jim.henderson 17:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Aren't f.i. words like "cookie" ("koekje") or "Santa Claus" ("Sant Nikerlaas") derived from Dutch? I think this is missing in the article
I would like to suggest that someone provide an explanation of the dreadful convention of using "New Netherland" instead of "New Netherlands". Surely I'm not the only one that finds this usage unappealing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schildewaert ( talk • contribs) 19:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The map of "greatest extent" of colonial claims only colors the western third of Long Island. It is true the Dutch never acted decisively against the infestation of the island by Yankee interlopers, but didn't they claim the whole island? Jim.henderson ( talk) 17:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Page rendered wrong in both Firefox and Chrome, causing the "euromericas" tag to show up behind main text; moved tag down a bit so the page is at least readable now. My pref would be to delete it altogether (it's for the "Dutch colomization..." page as linked within the tag ) and put ref. to it in the "See Also" section. Pls. test preview before changing this. DeVerm ( talk) 06:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Also did some consistency editing and some Dutch<>English translation corrections. (no change in content) This page needs a lot more work.. is the current text stable enough to spend my time on? DeVerm ( talk) 07:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Surprisingly my edits were not undone so I'm being bold and continued. Although my previous edits (see previous section) were minor edits I forgot to flag them so. The edits I started now are not considered minor although I'm not changing factual content. I can see that the authors must have been Dutch (like me) because I recognize the sometimes odd way of phrasing and tried to correct that. English is my 2nd language so if it's your first and you see phrasing that sounds odd in my edits, please jump in!
My goal is to first make this a readable article with basically the same content. If that works out well, intend to make further refinements and corrections to the content itself, which I will explain on this page too. For now it will be some time before that point is reached as I'm still working on the "exploration section"... DeVerm ( talk) 20:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Have been taking a shot at making article a bit readable, TOP & EXPLORE: In general will need lots of work, and a problem here is that much of the info is not referenced at all so the chanced of this piece becoming valid (if that's a concern) is slim. Djflem ( talk) 01:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm dubious about the map that purports to show (in green) the area of settlement by the Dutch in New Netherland. The portion in present-day Connecticut is especially unlikely, not least because its northern boundary is shown as following the present-day boundary between Connecticut and Massachusetts. (That line wasn't laid out in its current location until 1804, according to the map at the Connecticut Colony article.) My impression is that Dutch settlement in Connecticut was minimal, despite the establishment of a fort/trading post near present-day Hartford. Can any Nutmeg Staters shed light on the matter? 65.213.77.129 ( talk) 21:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
It is unfortunate that none of the "new" maps give a clear picture of the extent of the colony. The territory claimed was never fully settled, and while some trading grew into larger communities others were destroyed (Swaanendael), failed to flourish at all (Ft Nassau), were ceded to English in first treaty (Good Hope), or others that may have been settled by New Netherlanders, but while being part of New Netherland. For all intents and purposes New Netherland was the region around New York Harbor and the Hudson Valley. The Delaware Bay region was New Sweden from 1638-1655, and had little if any official contact with New Amsterdam, and the green map showed that best. The white map within template (which incidently has an English flag on it), shows communites that did not exist simulatneously, highlights small ones, while omitting larger ones. Djflem ( talk) 04:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I have restored map, because, actually it does justice to the article and as it says RELATIVE.... The other map in article-states that were part of NNL is completely misleading, whereas this goes RELATIVELY broadly show regions of settlement.----dj flem
It seems that this article has been mauled over so many times that it is almost impossible to make heads or tails of it: repetitive statements, no chronology, very few references, tons of misleading and obscure information, etc, etc. Having tried to work on it's understandable that it hasn't been touched in a substantive way in while. A quagmire. But besides all that IT DOES NOT TELL THE STORY OF NEW NETHERLAND. Where is the real history? The Lenape, the Wappingers, and Mohawks? Minuit? Kieft's War? The Twelve Men? The Nine Men? Stuyvesant? Esopus War? Would love to see this become a great piece, especially in light of the upcoming 400th anniversary of Hudson's trip up his river and the start of it all Djflem ( talk) 03:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Is there a preferred way to indicate non-English words, ie use of italics that should then consisttenly used througout article? Is there a better way to then translate it? The (Eng:...)form seems redundant and breaks the flow of text. Wouldn't a parenthetical translation suffice? 86.80.116.183 ( talk) 14:49, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Have just added a New Netherland section to above mentioned....which could use work
This template could use some serious work:
Dutch, English (certainly in New Amsterdam and some Brooklyn towns), French (the mother of the Walloons, the first settlers) Unami Lenape (the language of the Hackensack, Tappan, Raritan), Munsee from the Esopus, Meteoac from Canarsee and Rockaway plus a variety of others. Likely Scandanavian tongues, German, and Spanish
Acutally, I suppose it's not a offically a template, but the first info at top of article. Doesn't seem possible thought to add Prinsen flag, or space for other Directors of New Netherland, more specific language notations (ie offical, and common) Djflem ( talk) 23:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Some comments in response to the request on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Netherlands:
Success with the article! – Ilse @ 13:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
I chosen to remove long stretched of Dutch langage text as being too detailed for this article and general reader of English Wikipedia. Agreed? Djflem ( talk) 03:37, 16 December 2008 (UTC) The Union of Utrecht, the founding document of the Dutch Republic, signed in 1579 stated “that everyone shall remain free in religion and that no one may be persecuted or investigated because of religion” (dat een yder particulier in sijn religie vrij sal moegen blijven ende dat men nyemant ter cause van de religie sal moegen achterhaelen ofte ondersoucken). “through attitude and by example”, the natives and nonbelievers to God’s word “without, on the other hand, to persecute someone by reason of his religion, and to leave everyone the freedom of his conscience” (or, in Dutch, levenshouding en voorbeeld moesten zij de Indianen ende andere blinde menschen tot de kennisz Godes ende synes woort sien te trecken, sonder nochtans ijemant ter oorsaecke van syne religie te vervolgen, maer een yder de vrijch[eyt] van sijn consciencie te laten). “that everyone shall remain free in religion and that no one may be persecuted or investigated because of religion” (dat een yder particulier in sijn religie vrij sal moegen blijven ende dat men nyemant ter cause van de religie sal moegen achterhaelen ofte ondersoucken). That statement, unique in the world at the time, became the historic underpinning for the opening of the first synagogue in the Western Hemisphere at Recife in Dutch Brazil in 1642. as well as the official granting of full residency for both Ashkenazim and Sephardim Jews in New Amsterdam in 1655.
New Netherland series |
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Exploration |
Fortifications: |
Settlements: |
The Patroon System |
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People of New Netherland |
Flushing Remonstrance |
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I have add this template for NNL series to many articles which are not included in the template because that are totally relevent, among them: Jan Rodrigues New Netherland Dutch Colonial history of New Jersey Flushing Remonstrance Is it necessary, worthwhile, or interesting to add them to the series template "contents" or would it be too unwieldly? Djflem ( talk) 21:46, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
New Netherland series |
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Exploration |
Fortifications: |
Settlements: |
The Patroon System |
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People of New Netherland |
Flushing Remonstrance |
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I have add this template for NNL series to many articles which are not included in the template because that are totally relevent, among them: Jan Rodrigues New Netherland Dutch Colonial history of New Jersey Flushing Remonstrance Is it necessary, worthwhile, or interesting to add them to the series template "contents" or would it be too unwieldly? Djflem ( talk) 21:58, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
The above mentioned article is very relevent to New Netherland, but cannot be covered very comprehensively within. I have tried to import some material to Patroon and give it a bit of shape, but it's lacking.... Any help there would give support to this piece. Djflem ( talk) 20:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello all. I spend most of time here disamming pages. This just means that there are links to disambiguation pages. Well those pages aren't meant to have links to them. They should be redirected to wherever they should be. Well I've disammed this article multiple times the last few weeks. The main "culprits" are British and Native American(s). The former should really be linked to British people or United Kingdom. The latter should go to Native Americans in the United States. So when adding content, please remember to make the links go to where you intend them to go. Nationalities (British, American, French, Dutch, etc) almost always should go to people, i.e. British people, French people, etc and not the disam pages. Thanks. -- User:Woohookitty Diamming fool! 09:11, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
For North America-related articles needing a map, use {{ map requested|North America}} on the talk page, which adds the article to Category:Wikipedia requested maps in North America. You can help Wikipedia by uploading freely licensed maps for these articles to Wikimedia Commons. Though the current map gives an impression of New Netherland is chooses certain settlements that were never "prominent" and doesn't contain others that were, giving a skewed picture.
Have removed from following paragragh in article the detailed info on the fleet:Within six years, the nations were again at war, and in August 1673 the Dutch recaptured New Netherland with a fleet of 21 ships, then the largest ever seen in North America. It was composed of two squadrons, one under the command of Vice-Admiral Cornelis Evertsen de Jongste, sent out by Pieter Huybert, ‘’raadspensionaris’’ of the Zeeland Chamber of the Dutch West India Company, and one under Jacob Binckes, sent by the Amsterdam Chamber. The victors chose Anthony Colve as governor and renamed the city "New Orange", reflecting the installation of William of Orange as Lord-Lieutenant ( stadtholder) of Holland in 1672. (He would become King William III of England in 1689). Djflem ( talk) 11:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Testing the system Djflem ( talk) 04:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I am going to have to fail this article's GA nomination, mainly due to referencing issues, but also a few other problems. Here is a list of the issues that need to be addressed:
This list is not exhaustive, as I didn't check prose, NPOV or coverage. Once the above issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated for GAN. It looks like a nice article overall, just needs some work on the referencing. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. Dana boomer ( talk) 17:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure what is meant by this. Why are these two sources posted here? Kindly explain. Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 20:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for the confusion. You will notice from the above Good Article evaluation that there are many problems with referencing, one of them being the inconsistency of having an incomplete source list. As a source list is not required per se, and indeed might be redundant or make the article too long, I've eliminated it. Items can indeed be found in Ref List or as external site. In my haste the above were overlooked, are now incorporated. Addtionally, I wonder if you have away of testing for access dates. I beleive there's a program to be run for checking that (rather than doing manuallly), but am not sure. Thanks Djflem ( talk) 22:23, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
After a Request for Feedback from User:Djflem, I started to make some order in the references. I am going to use Cite-templates everywhere for a uniform look. For the access dates, I ask the authors to fill in the respective dates. bamse ( talk) 12:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Done: converted (almost) all references to cite-template style. Moved non-references to Notes section, combined double references and deleted items in external link section if they were already in the references. To complete this task the following is necessary:
I am looking for expert knowledge from authors or people familiar with the subject for this. If you need help with formatting, leave a note here or on my talk page. bamse ( talk) 17:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
My Dutch is a bit rusty, so please correct me if I am wrong. I only know hoek in the meaning of corner/angle. Can it also have the meaning of "point" as written in the article? bamse ( talk) 22:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
A hook (or hoek in NL) is a point as in Paulus Hook or Red Hook or Hook of Holland. By the way, it's obscure and not needed here: From the Alexander Hamilton U.S. Custom House article: The building sits on the site of Fort Amsterdam, the fortification constructed by the Dutch West India Company to defend their operations in the Hudson Valley. The fort became the nucleus of the New Amsterdam settlement, and in turn, of New York City. Djflem ( talk) 23:33, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Wasn't suggesting to keep link to southern tip, just a tid-bit of info about how far inland the site is due to landfilling since 17th century. Hook, as point, seems reasonable to leave since the essential meaning is there in English and it's the term that used for such locations as West Point, Bergen Point, Orient Point. Other than Hoek van Holland (where the pure translation promotes the misconception), another hook in NL is Hoek van Ameland, an island in the Waddenzee. Cannot find online dictionary that offers point as translation. Could also suggest leaving it out altogether. ([www.mijn.woorden.nl] will offer landpunt, which is among the many words used for peninsula, cape, horn, spit, etc. Some other other good old NL words are nes (in English neck), or landtong (tongue of land) Djflem ( talk) 01:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Here is a citation for hoek as point:
Would like to add it, but wouldn't know where to begin with getttin this info a format.
Your help would be greatly appreciated. Much thanks.
Djflem (
talk)
21:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Voorhees, David William (2009). "The Dutch Legacy in America". Dutch New York:The Roots of Hudson Valley Culture. Yonkers, NY: Fordham University Press. p. 418.
ISBN
978-0-8232-3039-6. {{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |co-publisher=
ignored (
help)
Hey djflem, please take a look at the revision I just made. If it isn't what you had in mind, please revert it! :) DutchmanInDisguise ( talk) 23:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I started to fix links to disambiguation pages and am stuck at The Fresh River and New England. Which Oyster Bay is meant there? bamse ( talk) 11:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Great, thanks again!!!! Djflem ( talk) 20:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I changed some sections back for the following reasons:
Djflem ( talk) 20:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't know enough of the subject to attempt an edit, but it occurred me that Art. 6 of Stuyvesant's transfer agreement of 1664, which gives Dutchmen leave to settle freely in future and continues free navigation of Dutch bottoms and free trade of Dutch goods in those bottoms, constitutes an exception to the Navigation Acts of 1660. The Acts allowed free navigation of the colonists in their own ships, except for enumerated commodities, but Art. 6 appears to go further. I believe I have seen this exception mentioned in the literature, so it may have been used effectively. But I am not sure. If it remained a dead letter there is no reason to mention this in the article. But if this privilege for the New Yorkers remained in force during English colonial times it constituted an important advantage for the New Yorkers compared with other English colonists. The Navigation Acts intentionally limited access of English subjects outside England to the Amsterdam Entrepot and so posed a serious obstacle to colonial economic prosperity. Except maybe for New York, if I am right. Does anybody know?-- Ereunetes ( talk) 20:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
This article needs a little work. I will give some recommendations per section.
*Shouldn't the seal be placed in the infobox?
*Shouldn't there be a flag in the infobox?
Flags do not appear in info box though they have been input. Technical assistence needed to do this as well moving seal into it.`20:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Fur pelts, sewant, coin, as well as barter were all used much more than the guilder/ florin The guilder ( Dutch: gulden), represented by the symbol ƒ or fl., was the currency of the Netherlands from the 13th century until 2002, but inclusion would be misrepresentative.
a link has been made to colony
NOT AVAILABLE
See below for"Director-General". Djflem ( talk) 20:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
*"Dutch" should be wikilinked to "Dutch language"
*"colonial province" should be wikilinked to "colony"
*"North America" should only be wikilinked once
Either spelling for Nieuw Nederland, with or without hyphen, is acceptable and used in contemporary Dutch. Dutch language Wikipedia uses that with hyphen. Djflem ( talk) 19:34, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
included in Halve Maan article, which is linked
Rubenescio ( talk) 16:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Rubenescio ( talk) 22:49, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
This article is well written, but needs some work before I can pass it as a good article. The most obvious improvement would be adding more citations in order to pass good article criterion 2. For now I will fail it. Rubenescio ( talk) 20:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Jan Jacobsz May van Schellinkhout was born in the small village of Schellinkhout, just east of the town of Hoorn in North Holland. He appears to be the brother of Cornelis Jacobsz May, the first director of New Netherland [2]. Both brothers were the cousin of an in his days far more famous sailor, Jan Cornelisz May [3], who led several expeditions to explore the Northeast passage and between 1614 and 1617 circumnavigated the world with Joris van Spilbergen. Djflem ( talk) 19:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
This is a list of Directors, appointed by the Dutch West India Company. Only Peter Stuyvesant held the title of Director General. During the restitution to Dutch rule from August 1673 to November 1674, when New Netherland was under the jurisdiction of the City of Amsterdam, the first Dutch 'Governor' was appointed: Anthony Colve.
Director/Director General | From - To |
---|---|
Cornelis Jacobszoon May | 1624 – 1625 |
Willem Verhulst | 1625 – 1626 |
Peter Minuit | 1626 – 1632 |
Sebastiaen Jansen Krol | 1632 – 1633 |
Wouter van Twiller | 1633 – 1638 |
Willem Kieft | 1638 – 1647 |
Petrus Stuyvesant | 1647 – 1664 |
Have chosen to remove this list from info box due to the complexity as described above. As with New Netherland in Dutch language, Director General can be written with or without hyphen. Djflem ( talk) 20:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Djflem just made an edit in the "Dutch colony" info box, changing the dates from 1614-1664 to 1609-1667. I think this is dubious, to say the least. The fact that Hudson re-discovered the area in 1609 on an expedition financed by the VOC does not constitute the start of the colony, if only because the first Company to receive (in 1614) a charter to trade with the area was not the VOC, but the New Netherland Company (as the article correctly states). I think the start date should be the date of first settlement (which actually was later than 1614). As to the end date: of course, the colony officially changed hands only in 1667, but it had de facto fallen into English hands in 1664 and been governed by England since. I think we should not be too punctilious about legalities. In any case, these points are up for debate. I think it is not correct to put such important edits into the article, without putting them first up for discussion.-- Ereunetes ( talk) 22:22, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Below is rough chronology dates which may be relevent to a discussion of the beginning/ending of New Netherland. Since the matter is complicated (just as that of the Director, Director-General, and Governor) it seems trying to chose a date to conform to an infox would be unnecessary and always arbitrary. Information can be found in article itself so the reader can determine if its important. I suggest scrapping it altogether.
Djflem ( talk) 22:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
This may only bother me and I certainly will not make any changes based on my feelings BUT many times an English translation of a Dutch word is used when it would make more sense to this English speaking reader if the modern English word was either used or added parenthetically. It is good to know the Dutch named and called the Hudson the North and the Delaware the South Rivers. But when writing about where a trading post was established it's better to use the modern English name. Use of the Dutch name would be preferable to an English translation, I know little about this colony but I'll bet the Dutch didn't use the title South River they used Zuyd Rivier. Nitpyck ( talk) 16:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I add this tag on talk page as it seems this article is in quite good shape but needing some extra help to it to becoming a GA. The above English/Dutch placenaming consistency issue could be resolved, the dates infobos could be resolved (a list or important dates rather than just two perhaps?), map in infobox could identify less arbitrary selection of settlements (or hone in on Hudson River with New Sweden inset?). The absence of a discusssion of slavery is glaring, and am looking at adding some text in society section. Any movement in this direction would be of great help. Djflem ( talk) 13:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
New Netherland series |
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Exploration |
Fortifications: |
Settlements: |
The Patroon System |
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People of New Netherland |
Flushing Remonstrance |
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I've just created an article on a British film called Nine Men, and have found on looking at the What Links Here page that it's created literally hundreds of links to the New Netherland template --->
I assume this must have been a redlink as there's no other article with this title, but as I have absolutely no knowledge of New Netherland I can't disambiguate the template entry as I wouldn't have any idea what an appropriate dab would be. Maybe someone au fait with the subject could do it? Thanks. Draggleduck ( talk) 06:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
As far as I am aware, we don't celebrate spring during 'Pinkster'. 'Pinksteren', as we call it nowadays, is rather the Dutch name for Pentecost. It may have been turned into a spring celebration or adapted to replace something of the native culture, but at least originally it hasn't been about spring. Qense ( talk) 10:16, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
While editing another article, I tried to add a link to this article, and had a problem. When I tried to link text to this article, the text was replaced by a New Netherlands series box. Although I'm a veteran editor, I'm not a power user. How do I avoid this problem? Secondly, how can I separately display the series box? Hurmata ( talk) 18:16, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I reverted an edit to the Lore section that added a lot detail about the history of the uniform colors of the NY Mets. I don't think that this article is the right place for details sports uniform history. If there's some disagreement about the source of the Mets' colors, they should just be removed from the section. Even if the Mets draw their colors from the Dodgers and Giants, but it seems more likely than not that the Dodgers and Giants drew their colors from the New York flag. In that case, the observation that the Mets colors match the colors of New Netherland's flag seems completely apposite. Fitnr ( talk) 18:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Hudson's ship, the Halve Maen, was miss-categorized as a yacht. It was actually a very serious ship of exploration known as the vlieboot, or "flyboat" in English. Correction made. Thank you, Wordreader ( talk) 20:00, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
It seems that in this entire page, with many examples of encient cartography, there is not one actual atlas showing the position of New Netherland on the globe. Perhaps someone invested in the page could add one? I doubt that the location of Cape Cod is known to the general public. PanDTV ( talk) 17:37, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
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Fur trader Juan Rodriguez's over-wintering on Manhattan in 1613–1614.is clearly part of the early establishment of the colony of NNL. Djflem ( talk) 05:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
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help); Missing or empty |title=
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" Pieter Minuit, was a German-born Walloon who spoke English and worked for a Dutch company."
Do you mean simply he *also* knew a rather third-rate language called English, after he was from French-speaking background, born in Germany, working for a Dutch Company in an area where many French-Speaking settlers settle... Why would he [only ?] speak English?
And if he knew also English, how well?
In any case I think saying "Peter Minuit" spoke English without a qualificative is very misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.143.217.66 ( talk) 09:35, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Where does the currently displayed flag come from? I can find no reference to it anywhere besides halfway down this Alternate History site : http://pmburgess.blogspot.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.95.11.114 ( talk) 00:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure if that's right; Although the Dutch name or the colony is singular, the English name might well be plural (compare with modern day Nederland vs. the Netherlands). -- Rik
This article seems to be a double of New Netherlands. I've seen the name without an -s before in other sources. Does anybody know which one is correct and why? -- User:Jheijmans
If the trading stations were consolidated in 1621, when were they established? --rmhermen
The accompanying map shows Fort Nassau in Delaware, but omits the Albany NY location of the like-names Fort.
Bruce.Olsen (
talk)
16:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
The sale of Manhattan is very poorly documented, as far as I know. Can the following be traced to a reliable source?
For example, the people from whom Minuit "bought" Manhattan did not live on the island, and probably thought that they were selling a share in the hunting rights."
A good discussion on the sale of Manhattan is found in Edwin G. Burrows and Mike Wallace "Gotham. A History of New York City" 1999. see introduction xiv-xvi and the chapter "The men who bought Manhattan, 14-27. They document the roots of this myth. while also comparing with the better documented dutch purchase of staten Island. It was paid for not in guilders but trade goods such as axes, scissors, kettles and so on. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Carlpo (
talk •
contribs) 14:06, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Carlpo (
talk)
14:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
The names Nova Belgica (from Gallia Belgica, the Roman province) and Novi Belgii have both been used, should we mention that? There seem to has been a mix up quite early in history between the names Belgica and Belgium -- moyogo 16:39, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)
Weren't the southern netherlands (belgium) occupied by the spanish/french during the colonization of NY?
Being Dutch, I know that "factorij" is a Dutch word, and means trading outpost, but I think the plural form is factorijen. Was it spelled factorijs in the 17th century?
Can somebody add what this area currently is to the first sentence of the article? i.e. was the territory claimed by the United Provinces (the Netherlands) on the eastern coast of North America in the 17th century, corresponding to the present.... 218.103.132.85 16:51, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
The Author Russell Shorto has produced a book - based on the New Netherlands Project's work, and with their cooperation - that puts much of all this informationh between two covers. Doubleday published it in 1994, and it has been kept in print ever since. I put the information for the book in the Reference section.
SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 20:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
The book was published in March 2004, not 1994. It is a historical novel like The DaVinci Code. Need we say more? If Wikepedia wants to have any credibility it must focus on the neutral historical facts which ought to tell the story implicitly rather than opinionated or prejudiced story telling.
Historians may disagree with Shorto, a journalist, on interpretation, but it is not fair to call his book historical fiction. It is history based on research in primary and secondary sources and containing no fictional characters, episodes, etc. 209.170.255.14 16:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)Paul Otto
So some of the recent additions were copyvio from http://www.tolerancepark.org/. Rather than try to sort through which parts are or are not copyvio right away, I've initially reverted all the additions. Tomorrow I'll go through and reinstate some of them as I check them individually. — Laura Scudder ☎ 18:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
(Wikipedia Editor Laura Scudder protects this web site which belongs to broken history. It contains factual errors, misinformation, disinformation, and personal judgments which are irrelevant to New Netherland and would more properly belongs to the history of other colonies.)
OK Now I have found you. TolerancePark.org has been written by me, no one else. Everything is original research based on mostly primary, not secondary sources obtained from many libraries in many countries. DeKoning
To understand those instructions one needs to hire a law firm or spend many hours figuring out what the site wants. Is there an easy way such as, e.g., sending you an e-mail from the site TolerancePark.org? What is your e-mail address? DeKoning. Mine at the web address is President@TolerancePark.org
Ms. Scudder, (1) I would like to replace the very confusing, wrongly colored, later issued Visscher map on the site with the earlier properly colored map of New Netherland on the TolerancePark.org site. That map I have also given to the NNP.org which should have it somewhere on its site. How can that be done?
(2) I would like to add one engraving of the east coast made by Willem Blaeu c. 1621; right underneath the Block map. I have that on my computer and, perhaps, it can be found somehwere else on the internet. Can it be imported from my computer? How do I do that?
(3) The Blaeu engraving on the New Netherland site (wrongly dated as from 1643 by Johannes Blaeu as it was engraved in 1635 by his father Willem Blaeu who died in 1638) is really the engraved version of the Block map, with west facing what is now ususally north. A better map would be the first ENGRAVED map depicting the three colonies from the 1625 book "New World",, second edition of 1630 by De Laet. What do you think? DeKoning
DONE!
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This is to authorize that Wikimedia or Wikepedia is allowed to quote from www.TolerancePark.org or use its pictures with regard to New Netherland, New Amsterdam, Manhattan and Governors Island. If you have any questions please respond to President@TolerancePark.org
Ms. Scudder, May I now post the most recently corrected prose? DeKoning
The following is a discussion about a joker who made a deceptive map of New Sweden and insisted that it reigns on the New Netherland site. Because the map is meant to mislead, it doesn’t belong on either the New Sweden or New Netherland site. The New Sweden map wasn’t even on the New Sweden site so that is where I moved it to. Yet, a group of self-appointed Wikipedia editors, apparently more versed in computers or language rather than New Netherland history, insisted on putting the map back on the New Netherland site. The map evidences the dictatorship of ignorance with which these pages and New Netherland history are permeated. March 24, 2006, DeKoning:
March 7, 2006; the map of New Sweden interposed on the New Netherland Wikipedia entry is not contemporary. It is of recent creation which (if at all, because of its interpretive purpose) belongs to an entry on Wikipedia about New Sweden (definitely not on the New Netherland page) which was established by various disenfranchised and disgruntled members of the Dutch West India Company (including Willem Usselincxs, Samuel Blommaert and Peter Minuit) under the auspices of the Swedish king. Petrus Stuyvesant had been ordered by the States General to retake the area which he did on September 25,1655, with a fleet of seven ships and a force comprising 317 soldiers and over 300 sailors. He was told to do "his utmost to revenge this misfortune not only by restoring matters to their former condition, but also by driving the Swedes at the same time from the river as they did to us". DEKONING —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
Mr. Adamsky, The map of New Sweden is wrongly annotated and its interpretation is historically incorrect. It has therefore no comtemporary meaning unless you produce an engraved map of New Sweden engraved in that specific year 1650. Even then, the map belongs on the New Sweden site only and not on the New Netherland site. Please, be respectful. DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
Mr. Adamsky, What is your interest in insisting on posting a modern interpretive map about New Sweden on a New Netherland site? If people want to know about New Sweden they can go to that Wikipedia site without any problem. The three maps (did you call them paintings?) on the New Netherland site are of the 17th century and NOT, as you appear to claim, from a later date. Not only are you disrespectful of the New Netherland site but you are also ruinous of its integrity and therefore guilty of vandalism. If you read the historical facts carefully, then you know that your modern New Sweden map's caption is erroneous because of, what you say, "both areas are shown in relation to each other". You may need to study history a bit more to understand that one area was situated temporarily contained in another one rather than being (wrongly colored) separate geo-political sections. If you are an expert on New Sweden history, please, focus on that site. I hope that Wikipedia editor Laura Scudder ☎ will be able to do something about that. Respectfully yours, DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
Mr. Zello, New Sweden was a transitory interposition in geo-political New Netherland. A 1648 manuscript map, engraved by Jan Jansson in 1650 may illuminate this point. New Sweden was not an adjoining complement to New Netherland as your modern interpretive map seems to want to tell with its opposite, disparate coloring. If you want to make the public believe your interpretation or would like to debate this further, you ought to do that on the Wikipedia New Sweden site. Similalry, there would be no place for modern, interpretive maps of New Holland (now Cape Cod) or New Netherland on the Wikipedia New England site. Let New England deal with its own history. Respect the history of the various colonies and don't superimpose them on top of one another to try to make a subjective point. I can't give you a clearer explanation than this. Your map requires to be on the New Sweden site only, i.e., not on the Virginia, not on the New England and not on the New Netherland site. DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
BKonrad/Zello/BigAdamsky: New Sweden was not based on (1) first discovery, (2) original exploration, surveying and mapping; and (3) first settlement. It was based on the initiative of various West India Company directors with prior New Netherland experience selling their services to Sweden. New Sweden was therefore an interjection in New Netherland and not a complement to New Netherland. The New Sweden map you are insisting on publishing on the New Netherland site should be only on the New Sweden site as that is the site that pertains to your argument which you are trying to support by your modern deception. Putting the New Sweden map on the New Netherland site belongs to broken history and is historically false. If you continue to post that map, it will be transferred to the New Sweden site. Respectfully yours. March 19, 2006, DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
The point is that it doesn't show their respective geographical positions. You need to make a new map. March 19, 2006, DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
Anyone who can read and understand the above can easily figure out that the map does NOT show the relative positions of New Netherland and New Sweden. Therefore, this map must go from the New Netherland site. March 19, 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
BKonrad, this is not about an objection. It is plainly wrong. This may be because you are visually or geographically impaired or lack even the most basic understanding of history and therefore can't understand. The map does not reflect the historical facts and that has nothing to do with my English which is rather proficient as many articles can attest to. You are just a very sloppy reader. It is so simple; New Sweden lied inside New Netherland not next to it. DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning ( talk • contribs)
The inability to associate text with graphics is a common deficiency among people. That is simply because so many people go through life being visually unaware. Perhaps my argument may best be explained by the analogy that, during the cold war, a part of West Germany, in the form of West Berlin, lied inside East Germany. I.e., Geographically, West Berlin was not adjacent to East Germany. Perhaps it could be so depicted as a complement to East Germany if one were to draw a population density map instead. For example, America cannot be geographically depicted as an East and West coast only because certain states have negligible population (North Dakota). Therefore, the New Sweden map is neither a historical geographical map nor a population density map and by default is an erroneous depiction. Namely:
New Netherland’s southern border started at Cape Hinlopen, just south of the Delaware Bay and so surveyed and mapped by Cornelis Hendricksz between 1613 and 1616 (the map still exists) and in 1620 by Cornelis Jacobsz May. May became New Netherland’s first director in 1624. Samuel Godijn, a director of the West India Company, had a patent for the west side of the South (Delaware) River where he built a fort and established the colony of a few dozen men at Swanendael in 1630. At least 32 of them if not all were killed by the Indians in 1632. The colony’s focus had been on the whaling industry. Another director, Albert Coenraetsz Burgh had a patent for the east side of the river. The origin and disappearance of New Netherland and New Sweden are very different and therefore need to be discussed on their own pages.
Frankly, the Wikipedia pages on 17th-century New Netherland as well as New Sweden and its associated pages have been and are still very lacking in archival truth. I have made an honest beginning with regard to the New Netherland page and some associated pages. But many of them still contain erroneous, misleading secondary information, so repeated through the ages, of prejudicial or no value to Wikipedia’s readers. I now know why no serious historian or earnest person will spend the time and effort required to make this encyclopedia a useful tool.
Having to deal with computer hackers without primary expertise or understanding on the subject matter and having nothing else to do than prejudicially torpedoing other persons’ contributions is not a winnable recipe. For BKonrad to threaten me with a childish “three strikes and you’re out” lockout is evidence of the despotic nature of this ignorance with which these Wikipedia pages are imbued.
Therefore, for as long as that New Sweden map is on the New Netherland site I will refrain from any more contributions. I will no longer remove it. I am sure that someone else will put it back. But, after today, it is entirely up to others to invite me back by removing the New Sweden map from the New Netherland site. I won’t spend one more minute on this as being a computer hacker is not my passion. DeKoning, March 20, 2006
You have behaved like a pack of bull terriers unwilling to read and understand my objective, well-supported arguments for the immediate and permanent removal of a map that serve no function on the New Netherland site as it is incongruous. Cooperation, discussion, consensus-seeking and related people skills are a two-way street, not a one-way attack. To dismiss my effort to make you understand something and calling it “incoherent rambling, bordering on ranting” is indeed a petty accusation and insulting. DeKoning March 20, 2006
It's a good idea to draw another map which shows all the claimed territory of New Netherland together with the actually settled territories (probably with darker and lighter hues). Changing the present map to show New Sweden surrounded by New Netherland seems a bit misleading to me because of mixing the two points of view (ie. actual settlement and claims). Changing the caption is absolutely OK for me. Zello 08:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with DeKoning, the picture isn't appropriate for an article about New Netherland. Especially since the actual article doesn't even mention New Sweden. And even if the article were to mention New Sweden, it would have to be more than in just one or two sentences to warrant a picture as large as this one. It is quite an interesting subject though, the history of New Sweden vis-à-vis New Netherland and probably deserves it's own article, and that article would be the proper place for the picture, not New Netherland.
If people want to see a map showing the New Netherland settlements overlaid on a contemporary map of the US, I'd be willing to make one. Dedden 19:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry but I don't get it at all. What is the reason for this new map, what is it meant to convey? The original contemporary 1650 Jansson map or the 1651 "emendata" Visscher map is infinitely better and more detailed and already contains the names mentioned on this new modern map. The Visscher map is all one would need as an authentic companion to the text and is already part of the New Netherland article. Why do we need, again, another modern map with errors and omissions like the modern New Netherland/New Sweden map which I have tried to purge from the article because it is conceptually flawed? What is the need for a modern map that repeats what is already there, i.e. the Visscher map (even though later and incorrectly colored. I had suggested to Ms. Scudder to replace it with a properly colored one)? Moreover, the whole point of this discussion has been that the Wikipedia editors, by insisting on the posting of the incorrect New Sweden/New Netherland map, used their power to be sole arbiters of cartographic information on New Netherland and New Sweden at the expense of reason and historical facts. Even though they didn't come up with or advanced any convincing arguments which would warrant the defense of the colored sections on that modern New Sweden/New Netherland map, their actions have now superseded history by pretending to know the precise position and exact geographical borders of New Sweden while misrepresenting the geographical reality of New Netherland. I had argued that New Sweden's relative coloration had no geographical relevance with regard to New Netherland and also is erroneous as to New Sweden because its borders are indeterminable. New Sweden can only be defined by its forts; not by borders. New Netherland, though, had defined coastal borders. This new modern map, however well intended by Dedden, doesn't solve the debate and would only clutter up the article, like the flawed New Sweden map is now doing. This discussion has never been about Wikipedia readers wanting "to see a map showing the New Netherland settlements overlaid on a contemporary map of the US". For that it is wholly inadequate or wanting. It had to do with Wikipedia editors wanting their way in spite of their cartographic posting being nonsensical. I had read somewhere that posting nonsense was an act of vandalism. Why do I have to uphold the integrity of an article if editors can randomly post misinformation not worthy of an encyclopedia? We don't need a new map, we only need to remove an incorrect map. DeKoning, April 30, 2006
Ms. Scudder, I can't start a new discussion with you on the pros and cons of the newest of new maps about New Netherland for modern readers. There are already hundreds of those existing as you can see, for example, on http://www.nnp.org/newvtour. I have previously told you that the correctly colored Visscher map was on that site which was taken from an orginally colored map which I own and which is also on http://tolerancepark.org/_wsn/page2.html/ and that you could use it for the Wikipedia New Netherland article. As you know, I have pledged to not contribute any longer to the article for as long as the modern New Sweden/New Netherland map is posted there by Wikipedia editors. Frankly, I am worn out on this subject and too frustrated to continue with this. Please post nonsense. Wikipedia and its readers deserve it. May 1, 2006,. DeKoning
Since Dedden's map seems to address eveyone's objections except DeKoning, I've been bold and switched to it. — Laura Scudder ☎ 23:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Dedden's map achieves next to nothing compared to contemporary maps. It doesn't even mention New Netherland's southern border at Cape Hinlopen on the 38th degree latitude nor the northern border at 42nd degrees named New Holland (now the Cape). How can this map "address everyone's objections" as I was the only one who objected to the erroneous modern map the wikipedia editors insisted on posting? The map was a historical fraud. Yet, everyone was defending the incorrectly colored deliniations of the New Netherland-New Sweden map. Deddens map doesn't accomplish anything other than showing a few scattered names overlaid on a modern map. It is irrelevant to the discussion we have had on the subject. There are more than two dozen contemporary maps of New Netherland. Why the Dedden map is posted is beyond me as Dedden's map would need serious scholarly work to be of any use to a wikipedia reader. DeKoning 14:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Following the New Sweden map discussion above, I have removed the New Sweden map once more. (1) New Sweden was an ephemeral insert in New Netherland. The latter was founded on very specific principles which didn’t include armchair claims, military conquest or trespass. The three-step process of discovery, intensive and systematic exploration and mapping, followed by initial settlement was the basis for the geographical claim of New Netherland between the 38th and 42nd parallels. (2) New Sweden was not founded on those principles and therefore didn’t have defined geographical borders. The geography of New Sweden can therefore not be drawn on an imagined geographical map made in the 21st century as it couldn’t be drawn in 1650 thus. The New Sweden map is therefore spurious. (3) A modern map, perhaps meant to show New Sweden’s population (of a little over 200 persons), would require precise knowledge of the location of each house, if they ever lived in houses rather than forts. There are no population records based on a New Sweden census. Hence, a population distribution map can also not be made. (4) Therefore, what remains is the possibility of making a map that depicts the position of the various New Sweden forts only. Such a map, however, belongs on the New Sweden article and not on the New Netherland article. For example, the Wikipedia New England article should not be required to carry in its text oversized geographical or fortification maps of New France and New Netherland as they would be impertinent to New England. (5) This tenet should be valid for the New Netherland article as well. For those Wikipedia editors who feel strongly about vandalizing the New Netherland article with an incorrect and fraudulent New Sweden map, they ought to be held accountable for providing a fully supported, convincing rationale as the basis for including such an intrusion. DeKoning April 6, 2006
Contrary to Zello’s belief, Wikipedia articles are not based on majority rule. One thousand colorblind editors asserting that grass is red will lose against one contributor who proves it to be green based on historical and scientific precedent. Removed map put up by Zello because he didn't substantiate the placement. DeKoning April 7, 2006; Removed again because of Big Adamsky's unsubstantiated posting.DeKoning April 7, 2006. Because the map is neither a cartographic portrayal of New Netherland nor of New Sweden, the caption “relative location of New Netherland and New Sweden” is nonsensical. Reversed Zello's misplaced, erroneous New Sweden posting. DeKoning April 8, 2006.
manif@hotmail.com vandalized again the New Netherland article by posting an untrue New Sweden map which is falsely created and an unequivocal historical corruption. This intrusion by “manif” cannot be justified in any way on scholarly or geo historical grounds. The map’s flawed creation, its erroneous caption and its unjustified insertion on the New Netherland article is either a deliberate attempt to corrupt the article and to deceive the reader. “Manif” must prove that the map is errorless as a geographical depiction, that its caption can be defended academically and that placing an erroneous map in the wrong article is a Wikipedia objective. The New Sweden map was removed. April 8, 2006, DeKoning
Ms. Scudder, This has nothing to do with personal attacks. It is as I said before: "the map is neither a cartographic portrayal of New Netherland nor of New Sweden, the caption “relative location of New Netherland and New Sweden” is nonsensical". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.224.88 ( talk) 18:45, 9 April 2006
I couldn't care less about editors' motives as long as the information they post is correct; i.e., fully substantiated or supported with reason in the face of being challenged factually. My behavior is solely about the issue itself and certainly not personal. If one takes it personally, that is not my problem. My efforts are directed at achieving a sense of historical integrity for which I am holding these editors accountable. Power games and threats by these editors who seem to insist on not wanting to know, to understand or, alternatively, are unwilling or incapable of understanding should be discouraged. If their posts (like the New Netherland/New Sweden map) are purely for reason of personal motive rather than the Wikipedia readers’ edification, that's fine with me. Yet, they should not be relieved from having to embrace what is truthful or supportable. I.e., personal motive AND gobbledygook are out. The entire discussion above is about ONE issue only: the editors' appropriateness of insisting on posting a map which even Big Adamsky finally admitted is wrong. He thinks however, like the other editors seemingly, that it is fine to post wrong information until the right information comes along. Frankly, that is appalling and unacceptable. Must Wikipedia readers be presented with gibberish (which therefore is a deliberate deception) until correct information becomes available or, in this case, a "correct map will be available". I have only one question all along during this discussion: What could possibly justify the insistent posting of a nonsensical New Netherland/New Sweden map? Why are you insisting on knowingly posting a distorted cartographic fabrication? April 10, 2006 DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.224.88 ( talk) 03:03, 10 April 2006
This reply from Manif@hotmail.com, upon my inquiry to him, demonstrates the haphazardness and carelessness by which these Wikipedia articles are composed. Manif put the flawed New Netherland/New Sweden map back on the article while not having seen it or participated in the discussion why it didn’t belong there. He had no understanding of the subject matter and probably had never even heard of New Netherland or New Sweden. Yet, his post of the map is seen by others as legitimate input. I suspect that this is valid for lots of editors without fundamental knowledge of New Netherland because, not too long ago, the New Netherland article was an embarrassment for an encyclopedia. Yet, most new input, founded in academic, archival knowledge, was questioned, attacked or removed. The New Netherland article was mostly defined by external and peripheral stories such as, for example, stroke-of-the-pen armchair claims by an English king, an Italian explorer who had never explored, a modern New Netherland-New Sweden map with fabricated geographical borders. These tales had nothing to do with New Netherland and therefore should not have been posted on the article. Moreover, the text was plagued with fragments from historical novels and subjective or culturally biased judgments from secondary sources about the main historical characters. The legendary heroes who had dealt with unbelievable adversity to build the foundation of this nation and its largest city were disrespectfully insulted or dismissed as extraneous: Whether it was Verhulst, Minuit, Van Twiller, Kieft or Stuyvesant, they were all ghastly people, unpopular and apparently intently resented by the population, so much so that the 1664 English invasion was welcomed by the population with open arms, if you would like to believe the article. The fact that the disputed New Sweden map is back on the article is confirmation that there is no one out there willing to maintain even a minimum standard of credibility that is worthy of an encyclopedia or to take the New Netherland article seriously. DeKoning April 10, 2006
My response to this is why do you insist on posting a gigantic modern map that is either an uninformed creation by an amateur or a deliberate deception which should have no room in an encyclopedia or on an article of New Netherland or, for that matter, of New Sweden. Doesn't your contribution qualify as unreasonable information and malicious editing? April 28, 2006. DeKoning
Your perception of my aggressive tone is dictated solely by your frustration with my unwillingness to concede to the despotism of about three persons with no historical, cartographic or geographical knowledge of the subject matter and who, under the cloak of “consensus”, are perpetuating an intolerable condition to exist on the New Netherland article. I realize that you "are getting tired of reminding me" but you should also realize that I am equally "getting tired of reminding others" that they have a responsibility and must try to understand something of which they have no knowledge of understanding. I realize that my persistent efforts to open their eyes can only be construed by them, or you, as "aggressive". However, there is no other way to get rid of that ridiculous map other than by continuing to present or explain the rationale for its immediate removal. Frankly, I am awed by your apparent singular power in this matter by overruling reason and argument in favor of superficial consensus. As with Manif@Hotmail (see above), I have no confidence that the three persons, who you state represent a "consensus", have any knowledge or understanding of the subject matter at all. They have not proven to possess such knowledge yet are insisting the map's inclusion on vague notions that the map is a nice or useful map; for whom? In the land of the blind... April 29, 2006. DeKoning
Ms. Scudder writes: “They met minimal resistance, perhaps because of the unpopularity of Stuyvesant”. This is a judgmental, subjective statement not founded in the historical facts. DeKoning
I noticed many entries based on historical novels. Scary (scholary) input. Again, I won't contribute unless the New Sweden map disappears from the New Netherland site. The inability to fight the English incursion had nothing to do with the popularity of one man, even Stuyvesant. Be that as it may, I am losing interest in discussing absurdities put up by unqualified people and correcting ignorance. DeKoning
There was only one director-general which was Stuyvesant who was never governor of New Netherland even though he was governor of Curacao. All others were just (local company) directors. As you suggested, the contents of the New Netherland article ought to be based on scholarly citations which, in turn, ought to be based on original archival records. Citations by scholars and academicians who base their writings and conclusions on erroneous secondary information, novels or deficient research should have no room on this page. Even the many English translations from the original Dutch are full of errors and evidence of Anglo-centric bias. Therefore, what is popularly known about New Netherland in three hundred years of writings is filled with Anglo-centric falsehoods which qualify as nonsense. It also finds its way onto these sites. Like, for example, on the New Amsterdam article whereon the notion is proclaimed that New Netherland was exchanged for just the tiny English island of Run situated within the Dutch East Indies. This info comes straight from the most prejudiced historical novel one could read about the subject; "Nathaniel's Nutmeg". Someone more clear headed than that Wikipedia contributor added Suriname to the swap than just Run. But why not read the original Treaty of Breda before making any entry? If the basic information on an article is already flawed to start with, why must one battle to get rid of it because the ones who put it there insist on writing fairy tales or making others believe their tales? What will you get of America's 21st-century history written entirely by citing "Arab" scholars on the subject?.
Compare your statement on the article: “They met minimal resistance from the citizens, perhaps because of the unpopularity of Stuyvesant” with Stuyvesant’s 1665 report:
“Had your formerly dutiful, but now afflicted inhabitants, on the supplicatory remonstrances of the people and our own so iterated entreaties, which must be considered almost innumerable, been helped with the long sought for settlement of the boundary, or in default thereof had they been seconded with the oft besought reinforcement of men and ships against the continual troubles, threats, encroachments and invasions of the English neighbors and government of Hartford Colony, our too powerful enemies. That assistance, nevertheless, appears to have been retarded so long that our abovementioned too powerful neighbors and enemies found themselves reinforced by four royal ships, crammed full with an extraordinary amount of men and warlike stores. Our ancient enemies throughout the whole of Long Island, both from the east end and from the villages belonging to us united with them, hemmed us by water and by land, and cut off all supplies. Powder and provisions failing, and no relief nor reinforcement being expected, we were necessitated to come to terms with the enemy, not through negelect of duty or cowardice, as many, more from passion than knowledge of the facts, have decided, but in consequence of an absolute impossibility to defend their fort, much less the city of New Amsterdam, and still less the country.”…
“many verbal warnings came from diverse country people on Long Island, who daily noticed the growing and increasing strength of the English, and gathered from their talk that their business was not only with New Netherland but with the booty and plunder, and for these were they called out and enrolled. Which was afterwards confirmed not only by the dissolute English soldiery, but even by the most steady officers and by a striking example exhibited to the colonists of New Amstel on the South Delaware River, who, notwithstanding they had offered no resistance, but requested good terms, could not obtain them, but were invaded, stripped, utterly plundered and many of them sold as slaves to Virginia”.
Do you really believe that Stuyvesant’s alleged unpopularity had anything to do with New Netherland’s provisional surrender (an Anglo centric view?). April 5, 2006 DeKoning
The article about New Netherland, section "Exploration" is prefaced as follows:
“The coast of New Netherland was previously explored in 1524 by Giovanni da Verrazano, whose expedition was financed by the citizens of Lyon, France, under the auspices of King François I. Despite this, the area was mostly ignored by Europeans for a long time afterwards.”
This claim is entirely based on just 25 words purportedly written in a log book based on what Verrazano observed: “We entered up the said river into the land about half a league, where it made a most pleasant lake about three leagues in compass.”
(1) There is, however, no record of any soundings, latitude calculations, surveys or maps or even a sensible textual description of any part of the New Netherland coast. To say that he “explored” the New Netherland coast is nothing less than a myth.
(2) To credit him with discovering New York harbor by sailing through the narrows or observing the harbor from afar is also a falsehood as the flimsy description does not support the geographical reality. Namely, his observed “lake” (ostensibly New York harbor) was not preceded by a river.
The preface, therefore, has no validity on the New Netherland article as the statement is false and its conclusion irrelevant. I removed it on April 3, 2006, DeKoning
The Adriaen Block map of 1614, belongs to the section Exploration. The oversized New Sweden map is irrelevant to that section in particular and to the New Netherland site in general as discussed above. Its overshadowing presence has no function other than to present an erroneous message.
He merely sailed northwards along the eastern coastline, made one landing (nobody knows where exactly), and moved on. As you said, he "can pefectly well have explored the coast" but there is no textual proof or visual evidence. Seeing the moon doesn't mean one has EXPLORED the moon. It takes more to qualify as an explorer than just seeing. For Verrazano to sail along the coast and to see a "lake" should not bestow him with the honor of being quoted on the New Netherland article with having explored the coast line from Cape Hinlopen to Cape Cod, the New Netherland coastline, or to have discovered New York harbor. He simply did not EXPLORE the New Netherland coast line as the statement is based on zero evidence. DeKoning April 6, 2006
Exploring has to do with inquiring, examining, studying, searching or investigating systematically. With regard to the New Netherland coast line, Verrazano can not be called an explorer at all. The one explorer who more than deserves that title is only Adriaen Block. I didn't know it was your quote but it certainly doesn't measure up to the definition of exploring, even if defined as "slightly" rigorous. DeKoning
I suppose one could debate the meaning of exploring, but professional historians have described Verrazzano and other 16th-century mariners "investigating" the North American coast as explorers. As to whether or not Verrazzano "explored" New York Bay, a careful examination of the cartographic evidence (see Stokes, The Iconography of Manhattan Island) would support such a claim. I repeat this claim in the first chapter of my book where I identify two other "explorers" of the region after Verrazzano and before Henry Hudson. 209.170.255.14 16:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)Paul Otto
I have removed the paragraph below from the heading "English Incursions" as it has no relevance there. Frankly, the Flushing Remonstrance is something that belongs particulary to Stuyvesant, not New Netherland. Therefore, it should be discussed on the Petrus Stuyvesant page. It is a difficult to understand, complex, idiosyncratic subject matter and requires historical, contextual understanding of both Stuyvesant, New Netherland and patria. DeKoning April 6, 2006
"The
Flushing Remonstrance objected among other things to his ban on
Quakers as an infringement on the religious freedom of fellow Christians and Dutch citizens. The capture of the city resulted in the
Second Anglo-Dutch War between England and the Dutch Republic."
While I suppose it's necessary to have it somewhere to keep things clear, it seems very odd to me as a casual reader that so much of the lead paragraph of this article is dedicated to explicating the fact that "Belgium" in the 17th century was used for the modern Netherlands. The lead should be a succinct summary of what the article is about -- this is not a primary issue. Is it really necessary to use the Lating name in the lead at all? Can't this material be moved to a footnote or something? -- Jfruh ( talk) 01:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree wholly as in nearly ALL the maps of New Netherland (many dozens) the Latin Appelation of Novum Belgium, Novi Belgii, Novo Belgico etc. was used. New Netherland can therefore only be understood in that geographical and historical context. Without that historical and geographical link, the province of New Netherland in North America cannot be understood by anyone as they will confuse the current Kingdom of Belgium with New Netherland as an extension of the Dutch Republic or Belgium Feoderatum.
DeKoning
This change of degrees latitude from historical fact to a shot in the dark by 24.140.20.205 is unfounded and cannnot be supported in any way. The correct degrees latitude was supported by a link to slides of contemporary period maps which was removed by Laura Scudder on August 18 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.148.137 ( talk) 15:46, 15 September 2006
It seems to me that the articles New Netherland Company and Adriaen Block are very intimately related to this article, however no mention of either name or links to these article exist here. I am hardly an expert on Colonial Dutch exploration, I'm hoping that someone with more knowledge on the subject can straighten out the relationships between the articles. -- Elipongo 20:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Eh? When all private contracts were invalidated, didn't that have the opposite effec from voiding maritime law? Jim.henderson 17:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Aren't f.i. words like "cookie" ("koekje") or "Santa Claus" ("Sant Nikerlaas") derived from Dutch? I think this is missing in the article
I would like to suggest that someone provide an explanation of the dreadful convention of using "New Netherland" instead of "New Netherlands". Surely I'm not the only one that finds this usage unappealing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schildewaert ( talk • contribs) 19:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The map of "greatest extent" of colonial claims only colors the western third of Long Island. It is true the Dutch never acted decisively against the infestation of the island by Yankee interlopers, but didn't they claim the whole island? Jim.henderson ( talk) 17:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Page rendered wrong in both Firefox and Chrome, causing the "euromericas" tag to show up behind main text; moved tag down a bit so the page is at least readable now. My pref would be to delete it altogether (it's for the "Dutch colomization..." page as linked within the tag ) and put ref. to it in the "See Also" section. Pls. test preview before changing this. DeVerm ( talk) 06:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Also did some consistency editing and some Dutch<>English translation corrections. (no change in content) This page needs a lot more work.. is the current text stable enough to spend my time on? DeVerm ( talk) 07:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Surprisingly my edits were not undone so I'm being bold and continued. Although my previous edits (see previous section) were minor edits I forgot to flag them so. The edits I started now are not considered minor although I'm not changing factual content. I can see that the authors must have been Dutch (like me) because I recognize the sometimes odd way of phrasing and tried to correct that. English is my 2nd language so if it's your first and you see phrasing that sounds odd in my edits, please jump in!
My goal is to first make this a readable article with basically the same content. If that works out well, intend to make further refinements and corrections to the content itself, which I will explain on this page too. For now it will be some time before that point is reached as I'm still working on the "exploration section"... DeVerm ( talk) 20:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Have been taking a shot at making article a bit readable, TOP & EXPLORE: In general will need lots of work, and a problem here is that much of the info is not referenced at all so the chanced of this piece becoming valid (if that's a concern) is slim. Djflem ( talk) 01:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm dubious about the map that purports to show (in green) the area of settlement by the Dutch in New Netherland. The portion in present-day Connecticut is especially unlikely, not least because its northern boundary is shown as following the present-day boundary between Connecticut and Massachusetts. (That line wasn't laid out in its current location until 1804, according to the map at the Connecticut Colony article.) My impression is that Dutch settlement in Connecticut was minimal, despite the establishment of a fort/trading post near present-day Hartford. Can any Nutmeg Staters shed light on the matter? 65.213.77.129 ( talk) 21:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
It is unfortunate that none of the "new" maps give a clear picture of the extent of the colony. The territory claimed was never fully settled, and while some trading grew into larger communities others were destroyed (Swaanendael), failed to flourish at all (Ft Nassau), were ceded to English in first treaty (Good Hope), or others that may have been settled by New Netherlanders, but while being part of New Netherland. For all intents and purposes New Netherland was the region around New York Harbor and the Hudson Valley. The Delaware Bay region was New Sweden from 1638-1655, and had little if any official contact with New Amsterdam, and the green map showed that best. The white map within template (which incidently has an English flag on it), shows communites that did not exist simulatneously, highlights small ones, while omitting larger ones. Djflem ( talk) 04:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I have restored map, because, actually it does justice to the article and as it says RELATIVE.... The other map in article-states that were part of NNL is completely misleading, whereas this goes RELATIVELY broadly show regions of settlement.----dj flem
It seems that this article has been mauled over so many times that it is almost impossible to make heads or tails of it: repetitive statements, no chronology, very few references, tons of misleading and obscure information, etc, etc. Having tried to work on it's understandable that it hasn't been touched in a substantive way in while. A quagmire. But besides all that IT DOES NOT TELL THE STORY OF NEW NETHERLAND. Where is the real history? The Lenape, the Wappingers, and Mohawks? Minuit? Kieft's War? The Twelve Men? The Nine Men? Stuyvesant? Esopus War? Would love to see this become a great piece, especially in light of the upcoming 400th anniversary of Hudson's trip up his river and the start of it all Djflem ( talk) 03:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Is there a preferred way to indicate non-English words, ie use of italics that should then consisttenly used througout article? Is there a better way to then translate it? The (Eng:...)form seems redundant and breaks the flow of text. Wouldn't a parenthetical translation suffice? 86.80.116.183 ( talk) 14:49, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Have just added a New Netherland section to above mentioned....which could use work
This template could use some serious work:
Dutch, English (certainly in New Amsterdam and some Brooklyn towns), French (the mother of the Walloons, the first settlers) Unami Lenape (the language of the Hackensack, Tappan, Raritan), Munsee from the Esopus, Meteoac from Canarsee and Rockaway plus a variety of others. Likely Scandanavian tongues, German, and Spanish
Acutally, I suppose it's not a offically a template, but the first info at top of article. Doesn't seem possible thought to add Prinsen flag, or space for other Directors of New Netherland, more specific language notations (ie offical, and common) Djflem ( talk) 23:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Some comments in response to the request on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Netherlands:
Success with the article! – Ilse @ 13:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
I chosen to remove long stretched of Dutch langage text as being too detailed for this article and general reader of English Wikipedia. Agreed? Djflem ( talk) 03:37, 16 December 2008 (UTC) The Union of Utrecht, the founding document of the Dutch Republic, signed in 1579 stated “that everyone shall remain free in religion and that no one may be persecuted or investigated because of religion” (dat een yder particulier in sijn religie vrij sal moegen blijven ende dat men nyemant ter cause van de religie sal moegen achterhaelen ofte ondersoucken). “through attitude and by example”, the natives and nonbelievers to God’s word “without, on the other hand, to persecute someone by reason of his religion, and to leave everyone the freedom of his conscience” (or, in Dutch, levenshouding en voorbeeld moesten zij de Indianen ende andere blinde menschen tot de kennisz Godes ende synes woort sien te trecken, sonder nochtans ijemant ter oorsaecke van syne religie te vervolgen, maer een yder de vrijch[eyt] van sijn consciencie te laten). “that everyone shall remain free in religion and that no one may be persecuted or investigated because of religion” (dat een yder particulier in sijn religie vrij sal moegen blijven ende dat men nyemant ter cause van de religie sal moegen achterhaelen ofte ondersoucken). That statement, unique in the world at the time, became the historic underpinning for the opening of the first synagogue in the Western Hemisphere at Recife in Dutch Brazil in 1642. as well as the official granting of full residency for both Ashkenazim and Sephardim Jews in New Amsterdam in 1655.
New Netherland series |
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Exploration |
Fortifications: |
Settlements: |
The Patroon System |
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People of New Netherland |
Flushing Remonstrance |
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I have add this template for NNL series to many articles which are not included in the template because that are totally relevent, among them: Jan Rodrigues New Netherland Dutch Colonial history of New Jersey Flushing Remonstrance Is it necessary, worthwhile, or interesting to add them to the series template "contents" or would it be too unwieldly? Djflem ( talk) 21:46, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
New Netherland series |
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Exploration |
Fortifications: |
Settlements: |
The Patroon System |
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People of New Netherland |
Flushing Remonstrance |
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I have add this template for NNL series to many articles which are not included in the template because that are totally relevent, among them: Jan Rodrigues New Netherland Dutch Colonial history of New Jersey Flushing Remonstrance Is it necessary, worthwhile, or interesting to add them to the series template "contents" or would it be too unwieldly? Djflem ( talk) 21:58, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
The above mentioned article is very relevent to New Netherland, but cannot be covered very comprehensively within. I have tried to import some material to Patroon and give it a bit of shape, but it's lacking.... Any help there would give support to this piece. Djflem ( talk) 20:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello all. I spend most of time here disamming pages. This just means that there are links to disambiguation pages. Well those pages aren't meant to have links to them. They should be redirected to wherever they should be. Well I've disammed this article multiple times the last few weeks. The main "culprits" are British and Native American(s). The former should really be linked to British people or United Kingdom. The latter should go to Native Americans in the United States. So when adding content, please remember to make the links go to where you intend them to go. Nationalities (British, American, French, Dutch, etc) almost always should go to people, i.e. British people, French people, etc and not the disam pages. Thanks. -- User:Woohookitty Diamming fool! 09:11, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
For North America-related articles needing a map, use {{ map requested|North America}} on the talk page, which adds the article to Category:Wikipedia requested maps in North America. You can help Wikipedia by uploading freely licensed maps for these articles to Wikimedia Commons. Though the current map gives an impression of New Netherland is chooses certain settlements that were never "prominent" and doesn't contain others that were, giving a skewed picture.
Have removed from following paragragh in article the detailed info on the fleet:Within six years, the nations were again at war, and in August 1673 the Dutch recaptured New Netherland with a fleet of 21 ships, then the largest ever seen in North America. It was composed of two squadrons, one under the command of Vice-Admiral Cornelis Evertsen de Jongste, sent out by Pieter Huybert, ‘’raadspensionaris’’ of the Zeeland Chamber of the Dutch West India Company, and one under Jacob Binckes, sent by the Amsterdam Chamber. The victors chose Anthony Colve as governor and renamed the city "New Orange", reflecting the installation of William of Orange as Lord-Lieutenant ( stadtholder) of Holland in 1672. (He would become King William III of England in 1689). Djflem ( talk) 11:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Testing the system Djflem ( talk) 04:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I am going to have to fail this article's GA nomination, mainly due to referencing issues, but also a few other problems. Here is a list of the issues that need to be addressed:
This list is not exhaustive, as I didn't check prose, NPOV or coverage. Once the above issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated for GAN. It looks like a nice article overall, just needs some work on the referencing. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. Dana boomer ( talk) 17:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure what is meant by this. Why are these two sources posted here? Kindly explain. Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 20:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for the confusion. You will notice from the above Good Article evaluation that there are many problems with referencing, one of them being the inconsistency of having an incomplete source list. As a source list is not required per se, and indeed might be redundant or make the article too long, I've eliminated it. Items can indeed be found in Ref List or as external site. In my haste the above were overlooked, are now incorporated. Addtionally, I wonder if you have away of testing for access dates. I beleive there's a program to be run for checking that (rather than doing manuallly), but am not sure. Thanks Djflem ( talk) 22:23, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
After a Request for Feedback from User:Djflem, I started to make some order in the references. I am going to use Cite-templates everywhere for a uniform look. For the access dates, I ask the authors to fill in the respective dates. bamse ( talk) 12:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Done: converted (almost) all references to cite-template style. Moved non-references to Notes section, combined double references and deleted items in external link section if they were already in the references. To complete this task the following is necessary:
I am looking for expert knowledge from authors or people familiar with the subject for this. If you need help with formatting, leave a note here or on my talk page. bamse ( talk) 17:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
My Dutch is a bit rusty, so please correct me if I am wrong. I only know hoek in the meaning of corner/angle. Can it also have the meaning of "point" as written in the article? bamse ( talk) 22:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
A hook (or hoek in NL) is a point as in Paulus Hook or Red Hook or Hook of Holland. By the way, it's obscure and not needed here: From the Alexander Hamilton U.S. Custom House article: The building sits on the site of Fort Amsterdam, the fortification constructed by the Dutch West India Company to defend their operations in the Hudson Valley. The fort became the nucleus of the New Amsterdam settlement, and in turn, of New York City. Djflem ( talk) 23:33, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Wasn't suggesting to keep link to southern tip, just a tid-bit of info about how far inland the site is due to landfilling since 17th century. Hook, as point, seems reasonable to leave since the essential meaning is there in English and it's the term that used for such locations as West Point, Bergen Point, Orient Point. Other than Hoek van Holland (where the pure translation promotes the misconception), another hook in NL is Hoek van Ameland, an island in the Waddenzee. Cannot find online dictionary that offers point as translation. Could also suggest leaving it out altogether. ([www.mijn.woorden.nl] will offer landpunt, which is among the many words used for peninsula, cape, horn, spit, etc. Some other other good old NL words are nes (in English neck), or landtong (tongue of land) Djflem ( talk) 01:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Here is a citation for hoek as point:
Would like to add it, but wouldn't know where to begin with getttin this info a format.
Your help would be greatly appreciated. Much thanks.
Djflem (
talk)
21:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Voorhees, David William (2009). "The Dutch Legacy in America". Dutch New York:The Roots of Hudson Valley Culture. Yonkers, NY: Fordham University Press. p. 418.
ISBN
978-0-8232-3039-6. {{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |co-publisher=
ignored (
help)
Hey djflem, please take a look at the revision I just made. If it isn't what you had in mind, please revert it! :) DutchmanInDisguise ( talk) 23:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I started to fix links to disambiguation pages and am stuck at The Fresh River and New England. Which Oyster Bay is meant there? bamse ( talk) 11:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Great, thanks again!!!! Djflem ( talk) 20:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I changed some sections back for the following reasons:
Djflem ( talk) 20:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't know enough of the subject to attempt an edit, but it occurred me that Art. 6 of Stuyvesant's transfer agreement of 1664, which gives Dutchmen leave to settle freely in future and continues free navigation of Dutch bottoms and free trade of Dutch goods in those bottoms, constitutes an exception to the Navigation Acts of 1660. The Acts allowed free navigation of the colonists in their own ships, except for enumerated commodities, but Art. 6 appears to go further. I believe I have seen this exception mentioned in the literature, so it may have been used effectively. But I am not sure. If it remained a dead letter there is no reason to mention this in the article. But if this privilege for the New Yorkers remained in force during English colonial times it constituted an important advantage for the New Yorkers compared with other English colonists. The Navigation Acts intentionally limited access of English subjects outside England to the Amsterdam Entrepot and so posed a serious obstacle to colonial economic prosperity. Except maybe for New York, if I am right. Does anybody know?-- Ereunetes ( talk) 20:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
This article needs a little work. I will give some recommendations per section.
*Shouldn't the seal be placed in the infobox?
*Shouldn't there be a flag in the infobox?
Flags do not appear in info box though they have been input. Technical assistence needed to do this as well moving seal into it.`20:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Fur pelts, sewant, coin, as well as barter were all used much more than the guilder/ florin The guilder ( Dutch: gulden), represented by the symbol ƒ or fl., was the currency of the Netherlands from the 13th century until 2002, but inclusion would be misrepresentative.
a link has been made to colony
NOT AVAILABLE
See below for"Director-General". Djflem ( talk) 20:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
*"Dutch" should be wikilinked to "Dutch language"
*"colonial province" should be wikilinked to "colony"
*"North America" should only be wikilinked once
Either spelling for Nieuw Nederland, with or without hyphen, is acceptable and used in contemporary Dutch. Dutch language Wikipedia uses that with hyphen. Djflem ( talk) 19:34, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
included in Halve Maan article, which is linked
Rubenescio ( talk) 16:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Rubenescio ( talk) 22:49, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
This article is well written, but needs some work before I can pass it as a good article. The most obvious improvement would be adding more citations in order to pass good article criterion 2. For now I will fail it. Rubenescio ( talk) 20:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Jan Jacobsz May van Schellinkhout was born in the small village of Schellinkhout, just east of the town of Hoorn in North Holland. He appears to be the brother of Cornelis Jacobsz May, the first director of New Netherland [2]. Both brothers were the cousin of an in his days far more famous sailor, Jan Cornelisz May [3], who led several expeditions to explore the Northeast passage and between 1614 and 1617 circumnavigated the world with Joris van Spilbergen. Djflem ( talk) 19:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
This is a list of Directors, appointed by the Dutch West India Company. Only Peter Stuyvesant held the title of Director General. During the restitution to Dutch rule from August 1673 to November 1674, when New Netherland was under the jurisdiction of the City of Amsterdam, the first Dutch 'Governor' was appointed: Anthony Colve.
Director/Director General | From - To |
---|---|
Cornelis Jacobszoon May | 1624 – 1625 |
Willem Verhulst | 1625 – 1626 |
Peter Minuit | 1626 – 1632 |
Sebastiaen Jansen Krol | 1632 – 1633 |
Wouter van Twiller | 1633 – 1638 |
Willem Kieft | 1638 – 1647 |
Petrus Stuyvesant | 1647 – 1664 |
Have chosen to remove this list from info box due to the complexity as described above. As with New Netherland in Dutch language, Director General can be written with or without hyphen. Djflem ( talk) 20:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Djflem just made an edit in the "Dutch colony" info box, changing the dates from 1614-1664 to 1609-1667. I think this is dubious, to say the least. The fact that Hudson re-discovered the area in 1609 on an expedition financed by the VOC does not constitute the start of the colony, if only because the first Company to receive (in 1614) a charter to trade with the area was not the VOC, but the New Netherland Company (as the article correctly states). I think the start date should be the date of first settlement (which actually was later than 1614). As to the end date: of course, the colony officially changed hands only in 1667, but it had de facto fallen into English hands in 1664 and been governed by England since. I think we should not be too punctilious about legalities. In any case, these points are up for debate. I think it is not correct to put such important edits into the article, without putting them first up for discussion.-- Ereunetes ( talk) 22:22, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Below is rough chronology dates which may be relevent to a discussion of the beginning/ending of New Netherland. Since the matter is complicated (just as that of the Director, Director-General, and Governor) it seems trying to chose a date to conform to an infox would be unnecessary and always arbitrary. Information can be found in article itself so the reader can determine if its important. I suggest scrapping it altogether.
Djflem ( talk) 22:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
This may only bother me and I certainly will not make any changes based on my feelings BUT many times an English translation of a Dutch word is used when it would make more sense to this English speaking reader if the modern English word was either used or added parenthetically. It is good to know the Dutch named and called the Hudson the North and the Delaware the South Rivers. But when writing about where a trading post was established it's better to use the modern English name. Use of the Dutch name would be preferable to an English translation, I know little about this colony but I'll bet the Dutch didn't use the title South River they used Zuyd Rivier. Nitpyck ( talk) 16:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I add this tag on talk page as it seems this article is in quite good shape but needing some extra help to it to becoming a GA. The above English/Dutch placenaming consistency issue could be resolved, the dates infobos could be resolved (a list or important dates rather than just two perhaps?), map in infobox could identify less arbitrary selection of settlements (or hone in on Hudson River with New Sweden inset?). The absence of a discusssion of slavery is glaring, and am looking at adding some text in society section. Any movement in this direction would be of great help. Djflem ( talk) 13:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
New Netherland series |
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Exploration |
Fortifications: |
Settlements: |
The Patroon System |
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People of New Netherland |
Flushing Remonstrance |
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I've just created an article on a British film called Nine Men, and have found on looking at the What Links Here page that it's created literally hundreds of links to the New Netherland template --->
I assume this must have been a redlink as there's no other article with this title, but as I have absolutely no knowledge of New Netherland I can't disambiguate the template entry as I wouldn't have any idea what an appropriate dab would be. Maybe someone au fait with the subject could do it? Thanks. Draggleduck ( talk) 06:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
As far as I am aware, we don't celebrate spring during 'Pinkster'. 'Pinksteren', as we call it nowadays, is rather the Dutch name for Pentecost. It may have been turned into a spring celebration or adapted to replace something of the native culture, but at least originally it hasn't been about spring. Qense ( talk) 10:16, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
While editing another article, I tried to add a link to this article, and had a problem. When I tried to link text to this article, the text was replaced by a New Netherlands series box. Although I'm a veteran editor, I'm not a power user. How do I avoid this problem? Secondly, how can I separately display the series box? Hurmata ( talk) 18:16, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I reverted an edit to the Lore section that added a lot detail about the history of the uniform colors of the NY Mets. I don't think that this article is the right place for details sports uniform history. If there's some disagreement about the source of the Mets' colors, they should just be removed from the section. Even if the Mets draw their colors from the Dodgers and Giants, but it seems more likely than not that the Dodgers and Giants drew their colors from the New York flag. In that case, the observation that the Mets colors match the colors of New Netherland's flag seems completely apposite. Fitnr ( talk) 18:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Hudson's ship, the Halve Maen, was miss-categorized as a yacht. It was actually a very serious ship of exploration known as the vlieboot, or "flyboat" in English. Correction made. Thank you, Wordreader ( talk) 20:00, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
It seems that in this entire page, with many examples of encient cartography, there is not one actual atlas showing the position of New Netherland on the globe. Perhaps someone invested in the page could add one? I doubt that the location of Cape Cod is known to the general public. PanDTV ( talk) 17:37, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
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Fur trader Juan Rodriguez's over-wintering on Manhattan in 1613–1614.is clearly part of the early establishment of the colony of NNL. Djflem ( talk) 05:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
{{
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