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This archive page covers approximately the dates between 3 November 2005 and 13 November 2005.
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Please add new archivals to Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/Archive06. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. FuelWagon 05:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
So, here is another blatant example of POV pushing against NLP. The article contains a section that says "Behind every behavior is a positive intention". I added an explanation that this is sometimes called reframing. [1]. This gets blanked reverted by DaveRight [2] simply saying "You are erroneous" and reverting multiple edits.
Case in point, DaveRight is in fact erroneous. According to Dilts, the "Behind every behavior is a positive intention" concept is called "reframing". You can verify this by going to an article written by Dilts titled "The NLP Pattern of the Month: Reframing" subtitle The Principle of Positive Intention [3].
THere is no excuse for this blanket reversion approach by DaveRight. There is no justification for deleting this parenthetical that is it sometimes called "reframing", given that a notable NLP source specifically associates the "positive intention" thing with the term "reframing". And yet, the anti-NLP editors are deleting accurate reporting of a pro-NLP source. FuelWagon 04:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe your reframing addition was incorrect Fuelwagon. But I changed it to fit in for the sake of compromise. Your other edits were definitely incorrect.. Bookmain 04:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Fine FT2. But I did change the line to be more correct.. Bookmain 06:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
In view of the fact that
I am inclined to take the matter of these two editors, and possibly others, to the Arbitration Committee. If so, it will not be on the broad "he said/she said", or "Group A/Group B" basis that the request for Mediation was based upon. It will be directly undertaken myself, and specifically for aggressive POV warring, personal attacks, and persistent irreconcilable non-compliance with wikipedia policies by HeadleyDown, JPLogan and possibly others (to be decided).
Please vote below if you would be supportive, against, or have other opinions on this matter at this time. Note that ArbCom does not in fact require a consensus to accept a matter, so this is more a "straw poll" of feeling. (Sock puppets and suspected sock puppets, including unknown anon IPs, may be ignored) But I would want to think very carefully about such a step if mediation may yet succeed, or if I am in fact alone in thinking this is appropriate.
Hello FT2. Considering your recent additions of your own views to the article, I suggest that you need to go back to the reality check stage. We are in the constructive process of mediation, and if you hadn't noticed, the mediator is working well. He has even been moving or deleting criticisms from sections that your promoter team demanded to have supplied by neutral editors but then decided not to like. VoiceOfAll is working well for now. In future arbitration is always an option. I think it would be silly to pass up such a tolerant mediator as the present one. Regards AliceDeGrey 10:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
No support. Just patience. HeadleyDown 12:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I think you are treating VoiceOfAll's expert efforts unfairly. He has stepped in to remove direct insults, and has made very clear instructions of what you should and should not do (eg accusations section). It still seems to me that further exploration towards actual proceedings is in order. As you said, personal attacks etc. These do indeed need to be resolved. I think I am coming closer to an answer that is more related to how we resolve differences.
For example. One way to go, is to continue fulfilling the issues requirements that VoiceOfAll has provisionally set out. I can see we are getting closer to doing that. Certainly I have plenty of information that can help out there.
I have tried to point out people's clear biases and they tend to be based on vested and reputational interests (NLP teachers). But I realise there will always be fanatics who will come here to deface the facts.
I wish somehow to resolve that to some extent also. I'm wondering whether giving the article a more educational flavour may help (eg, pointing out the difference between science and pseudoscience etc). Whatever way is fine.
I am a patient person and also agree that arbitration is a long way off. You have been here only a short while and you are calling for arbitration already. I think most people would feel that is rash. Also, I feel people should be a lot more patient considering the compromises already made by the mediator and non promoters. Certainly, the mediator is a force of good for wikipedia and has proven to handle things well. So I consider him a friend to all wikipedians. A good force to work with. 203.186.238.214 12:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC) HeadleyDown 12:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Wow, it's so very kind of you to consider what we will do 'very nicely' with. I've never known you to be so concerned before. Thanks Lee1 11:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I can see that you are not using the libraries to your advantage. Stop surfing and start researching. HeadleyDown 14:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I was asked (via private e-mail) to take a look at this.
Please review Wikipedia:Avoid personal remarks and Wikipedia:POV. Uncle Ed 19:43, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
"X states that NLP is pseudoscience" is what I have been saying is the NPOV way to have criticism, so we should all agree here by now. And yes, the sarcasm here is over the top.
Also, lets not talk about arbitration right now, as that is by no means effective nor necessary. Voice of All T| @| Esperanza 20:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Uncle Ed and VoiceOfAll. Your wish is my command. Or something like that:) Thanks for the input. I will do my best to remove my temper. And clearer attribution has been requested, and so it will be followed. Best regards
HeadleyDown
01:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2 15:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I am simply being cooperative. If you wish to move antagonistically against mediation and compromise, then that is your choice. I feel you will find yourself in the minority. If you notice the numerous compromises made towards the promoters then you would not make such a decision. Believe me. You are welcome here, but your extreme moves in the light of the summer of extreme moves is simply a repeat of what went on before and failed. I do not wish to distract you from your own decisions, but I have been here for quite a while, and arbitration seems to be quite a few horizons away. I personally am open to many options. I and others here have made many compromises and will probably be open to others who are willing to shed real light on this subject. Otherwise, your efforts are directed to whichever cliff you wish to climb. Regards
HeadleyDown
15:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. The proposal to merge a speculative and promotional NLP site with wikipedia is completely unacceptable. The information is conflicting, mixed up, unverifiable, unfairly presented, unfactual and so on. It is not up to wikipedia to rescue failing websites and wikispam is also completely unacceptable. Lets just get on with resolving those 2 remaining issues. HeadleyDown 06:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
As mentioned in many places above it seems to me that science may be the solution to a lot of problems here. For example, I noticed that the engram is actually an incredibly persistent issue in psychology and neurology, and that is probably why it is used by NLP theorists. I had a look at the engram page, and it seems to be totally wrong. Not only is it vague, but it is also wrongly attributed to dianetics.
As the engram really is a strong ongoing research stream in neuroscience and psychology amongst other sciences, I suggest that the NLP promoters start accepting it as a concept. We have tried to represent it scientifically here, but promoters/practitioners keep trying to remove that explanation.
One way to do this would be to represent the engram properly as a scientific subject on the engram page. The engram is the memory trace that represents learning and has a very good science history. It is generally construed on the holistic level, just like NLP uses it, and its diagramatic representations match those of the NLP diagrams. It is different from the way dianetics uses the engram concept. There are papers on critiquing the dianetics engram as it is very flawed scientifically. Have a go at the engram page and that will probably help your case enormously. Regards JPLogan 02:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Now there's a good compromise. I can clarify on the article also! DaveRight 03:15, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes I also think this is a good idea. It will clarify things a lot.
HeadleyDown
11:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hallo. The NLP trainers I know in Europe and Russia use the term engrams in different ways to each other. But I think the suggestion is good. Certainly it should be stated that Hubbard's engrams are different from science and NLP's engrams. That is what encyclopedias are good for. The engram page said dianetics uses engrams (just after a scientific description) last time I looked. Just find a book that says the dianetics engram koncept is wrong, and Bob is your uncle:) From my understanding, Hubbard engrams are about pain. Science does not give them such a negative view, they are just representations of learning in the neurons. Also Hubbard talks about demons as part of them:) Read Dianetic, the science and technik of achievement. It is very funny:) Hubbard went from science fiction to fiction science:) But engrams were taught as a holist theoretical koncept in my undergraduate psychology. There is nothing wrong with it and the research is still following it even for finding where the engram is in the parts of the brain. When I read Bandler and amigos I do not see demon engrams, but I do see mental pathways and circuits of scientific proposed engrams. HansAntel 03:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the input Hans. We certainly need some world views and more scientific views here. Regards.. JPLogan 09:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I removed all of this text from the document. It is such a minority view that it is not relevant to the article. --start text removed--- The term "neuro-linguistic programming" includes three ideas:
The methods of NLP involve programming and reprogramming habits and mental associations, which some NLP practioners consider to be individual engrams (Sinclair, 1992; [32] Overdurf & Silverthorn, 1995; Drenth, 2003). Engrams are a scientific term for a theoretical neurological mechanism considered by some scientists to be the means by which memory traces are stored in the brain. (Note: Dianetics uses the term but in a different way). Engrams, give a patterned response which has been stabilised at the level of unconscious competence and involve beneficial automatic activities as well as pernicious ones like addictive behaviour (Sinclair, 1992)(Derks & Goldblatt, 1985). The engram has been used to explain the NLP anchoring process that underlies patterns such as the "swish" process. As such it is a theoretical concept that people used to understand NLP (Drenth, 2003)(Levelt 1995). For instance, Sinclair (1992) theorises that NLP processes are explained through the neurological concepts of programming and reprogramming engrams [33] of the mind/body connection in order to effect change, to develop unconscious competence, and to treat traumas (Andreas & Faulkner, 1994). Other explanations of anchoring include: a form of Pavlovian conditioning, or "consciously creating the placebo effect" (Rex & Carolyn Sikes). O'Connor and McDermot (1996) state that NLP works through reframing and belief change methods. --end text. -- Comaze 06:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, much as you would love to reduce the scope of views to that of Grinder, that will simply not happen. Taking into account the international views of theory into NLP, engrams are central. I know it is quite a vague concept, but it explains the neuro part of NLP perfectly, and it coincides exactly with NLP's association of engrams and the "unconscious". Someone mentioned (I think Hans) that the Anglo American view was too narrow. I have collected a lot more views on NLP from Europe, and those views include more claims to science. OK they are pseudo, but those are the broad views. They will be represented and the engram concept is clarifying (explains neuro). AliceDeGrey 06:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
One can set up a straw man as follows:
Do you recognise a pattern here? -- Comaze 11:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. NLP is not an opponent. NLP in this case is an article. Engram is not a misrepresentation. If anything it is a compromise in favour of NLP. It is after all, a scientific notion, and there is a difference between Hubbard's negative engrams, and NLP's engrams. The most important thing here, though, is engram is not invented. It is simply there to explain what NLP means by neuro in neurolinguistic (senses to nerves to engrams (the general mental pathways in the brain).
Actually, engram is really far more scientifically accurate than some of the other similar ideas stolen from sciences and placed out of context. For example, Dilts talks about the Hebb rule, and then mentions neural nets. Hebb never mentioned neural nets in the context of the brain. He always referred to engrams. Actually, if you talk to neuroscientists, they will choke if you talk about neural nets and the brain. Specifically, neural nets are artificial computer simulations and calculation setups. NeurONAL nets are small and very specific pathways in the brain. What NLP is describing is none of those, but engrams, and some of the proponents of NLP (especially the European ones) are smart enough to know the difference. The engram is a nerve pathway that represents learning.
I noticed that FT2 had made some changes to the engram page to represent things more specifically. I also made contributions there, and it is far more clear now. I still find it strange that you would want to remove something that is accurately descriptive and distinguishes NLP from dianetics. HeadleyDown 11:56, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. Turing machines are completely incompatible with human potential and representation of learning, and resources. Engrams handle those aspects very well. You seem to be obsessed with a very narrow view.
HeadleyDown
17:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Much of the pure scientific aspects of the discussion here are things which I am not well versed in, however, the "success seminar" angle is something I am familiar with, though not the Tony Robbins "I can cure you" kind. Suffice it to say, the usable application to be found here is in helping people steer their minds to a more effective premise in critical areas.
For example, there is a "success saying" which goes like this: "Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position".
I have found from experience that if you can get someone with low self-esteem and/or high self-doubt to truly believe that, they will then start regularly thinking that things can and will get better for them.
Recent case in point: A close friend of my family is in her 40's, overwieght, smokes, is out of work and 3 months past due on her mortgage. As a condition of helping her with enough $$ to get current on the mortgage (between me and her father, we bridged the gap), she was oblidged to come see me face to face for an hour, to get the check. At this meeting, I first made sure of the tally of the required $$, then I reminded her that I'd known her for 8 years and never once butted into her pesonal life. "Thats' true", she confirmed. So then, here is what I explained to her: I said "look, you are about to lose your house and you are spending over $150 a month on cigarettes, what the hell are you doing?" There was no argument on this point and then I explained an NLP "success saying". I said "look Susie (pen name for this), I am giving you this $$ because we care about you, but let me tell you something, the secret I am about to tell you is worth over 100 times more and here it is: Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position".
"It's that simple, all you have to do is stop telling yourself you can't and start telling yourself you can. After a certain point, you really will understand that your mind has stretched and you will know that it's not going back to where it was. You will be a different, better person than you are now".
I also gave here an easy translation Bible and set her to reading Proverbs, explaining that she needed some new grist for the mill (of her mind), such as "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid".
Anyway, the long and the short of it was this all happened about 8 weeks ago. Since then, she has quit smoking, got a job and started a diet/excercize program. When she called me 2 weeks ago to give an update, it was clear that she was convinced that her mind both can stretch and was in the process of stretching. She was really much happier, etc.
Now, will she stay that way? I say yes, if she actually does believe that her mind can stretch and if she works at stretching it. So to wrap this up, this NLP stuff, so far as I can see, really only works when you have a subject who is ready, willing and able to focus their mind effectively. The results come not as a consequence of he suggestion (the "programming"), but rather, as a consenquence of the subject actually focusing intensly on the target - it's the power of sustained postive expectations, nothing more. Those who claim to have developed a structured system of tapping into how people think and steering it via NLP are just putting a fancy name on helping people believe "Yes!, I can". A good football coach already does this; think "the Tuna", Bill Parcells.
In my view, helping people focus and moving them forward in life is the only worthwile application for this technology and frankly, the rest of it (I feel) is a bunch of crap dreamed up by people who are interested in considering themselves superior "Hah! see how I led that person around by the nose"...
Also, it really only works if the suggestion being made is an actual macro-truth - as in always true for everyone. In my mind, I always have available this: "Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position" as an absolute certainty and am always ready to share anecdotal proof that it's true with anyone who asks or othrwise displays interest. Personally, I am fully convinced that the reason why this particular suggestion works (if genuinely apprehended by the subject) is because it's true about all people, all the time.
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 08:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Welcome Rex. Thanks for your input. Yes, you have some clear perceptions about the subject. NLP is generally promoted as a science or scientifically sounding for the sake of sales with no serious effort to test and verify. Regards
HeadleyDown
11:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I think Rex is being more insightful than you realise, FT2. Notice the healthy lack of doctrine in his words. Looks like an open mind. You see the problem with the "subjective reality" part is that NLP proposes that they know the structure of it.
The reality is, they have no clue about the structure. Or more accurately, they have chosen clues which are not accurate. Well, I don't claim to have the answers on that one, but if I did claim it, I may make some money. It is a wild claim in itself. It presupposes that you can learn to do what Einstein did without the immense energy and talent he threw into all his years of obsessive explorations and so on.
Plus the theorizing that goes on within NLP is wild and unconnected. Going from Chomsky's theoretical and untested grammar to a method that is supposed to make you a wizard is a huge leap indeed. And one that makes practitioners fall flat every time from the look of things.
So far promoters don't seem to have persuaded anybody about the science/technology/amazing magic of NLP apart from themselves. That seems to verify the research done on NLP. I do not wish to antagonize here though. Merely to act as a mirror. Science and common sense are the best way to go meta. Regards HeadleyDown 12:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, I can't speak for Rex, but I think you have gone a few planets off target FT2. You speak of good books, and you have NLP books in mind. When I think of good books I think of how to retain and maintain normality in a crazy world. Psychotherapy is designed to do such a thing. It doesn't always succeed but it does a lot better than NLP. I am not talking about Freudian analysis, but about the empirically measured and objectively assessed methods that really do help according to reality (in contrast with speculative hype). Those methods of science that I speak of are self correcting, and even so common sense that they seem obvious. But in that way they help to keep people on the straight and narrow more or less. Whereas NLP promises genius, amazing abilities, and getting over your problems in a blink of an eye. It is purely a mass marketed psychobabble market. The world view is that it is just psychocrap. You can dress any salesman in a suit and sell the stuff with no satisfaction. But there are some things that are verifiable. They are tested and found to be valid. Perceptions of normal people are elicited, and their perceptions are generally ...Yes that seems about right. Whereas NLP is psychobabble from start to finish with nothing more than a bunch of lame promises and insecurity building presuppositions that is guaranteed to set up and complete insecure people's disappointment. Any relatively healthy person will just shrug off NLP like a 24 hr virus. At least, that is the Eurasian perspective according to my studies :) Spend you Euros and have a glass of wine:) Regards HeadleyDown 14:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to keep cleaning up the references and add links and notes where appropriate. I want to get he article to the stage where anyone can come in and easily check the sources. I'm going to stay out of any content disputes for a while until it cools down :) -- Comaze 14:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello Comaze. If cleaning means removing core references that you alone deem disposable, then forget it. If I see you altering the references, I will simply revert, and I will expect any neutral editor to do the same when considering your past and recent history. HeadleyDown 14:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. Further to your requests to discuss. I understand your urge to promote using obscurantisms on the opening of the article, but as discussed 3 weeks ago during mediation, hype and confusion is not appropriate for an encyclpopedia. A clear and instructive opening is requred that tells the reader straight away about their own perceptions (ie, not a programming language, but a way to program the mind). Not a study (sitting in libraries reading books or doing degrees, or publishing peer reviewed papers), but a self help technique. The study of subjective experience has already been criticised by scientists as hype and exageration. Presently the subject is classified as pseudoscientific by more scientists and scientific bodies than you realise. It is fine to explain straight away what NLP is in reality according to the sum of human knowledge on NLP. It is unacceptable to promote the subject using terms that are deliberately obscure and arguable. NLP is a method for programming the mind. Many NLP promoters use that explanation and it is helpful. That has been mediated already. Please learn to cooperate. I understand you have not been around here long. I will remain tolerant to your uncooperative actions. Regards HeadleyDown 17:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello TheCroaker. I simply represent the views of the scientists that I have read about. If those views see Anthony Robbins as one of the voices of NLP, then that is how they will be represented. Remember, NLP does not only study excellence. NLP also studies some very fringe behaviours including modelling those of the occult and also some other dubious and reprehensible behaviours. Those will also be represented HeadleyDown 16:06, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Now lets have some respect and cooperation with VoiceOfAll. In the interest of cooperation, lets work through the issues that have not been tackled and stop going over issues that have already been deemed acceptable by the mediator and the majority. Best regards HeadleyDown 17:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry FT2. You have not covered the issue that your addition is unclear and gives readers a hard time with the opening. Now instead of insisting on such uncooperative sidetracking, you could get on with the issues presented below. HeadleyDown 20:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. The lines you proposed for the opening were unclear and did not satisfy the requirements of the mediated version, plus the study of structure etc really is a promotional obscurantism. I merely wish to state we have some things to sort out here. Please focus on completing these following tasks. Regards
HeadleyDown
01:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello. This is funny. I was taught that I should not use the "study of structure of..." to explain to businesslike people what I was doing. My trainer said that if you tell them that, they just go "Huh?". HansAntel 03:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I've been looking in on this article for a while and I think your presence here is appreciated by all neutral editors, VoiceOfAll. There are some editors here who would like to see the back of you though, and its clearly because they do not like to compromise. People calling for arbitration at such an early stage are seriously biased and seem to be destined for arbitration to tell them clearly that they are biased. I believe they should start questioning their own POV. Considering the amount of changes they insist upon making after compromises have already been made towards them, I suggest the NLP/arbitration promoters use their imaginations to consider how biased and fanatical they seem to relatively NLP savvy outsiders such as myself. JC
Hello FT2. I notice you have continued to add the obscurantist/promotional section to the opening yet again. In doing so, you are turning compromise into uncompromise. Careful and considered compromise was made on that section through mediation. Turning compromise into uncompromise is completely against mediation. Try to work on resolving the outstanding issues.
HeadleyDown
06:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
We seem to have two different version, I merged them as best I could. If anything else should be added, then lets talk. Voice of All T| @| Esperanza 06:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Nicely done VoiceOfAll. Hopefully now we can just get on with resolution. Regards HeadleyDown 06:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2 and VoiceOfAll. I will do my best to clarify.
Programming: NLP is a kind of programming. That is clear by the title. People want to know what kind of programming it is. It is a way to program the mind. There are many NLP sources that state this as a matter of fact and it is indeed an accurate description. NLP also uses the computer metaphor throughout. eg; Hypnotherapy. A kind of therapy using hypnosis. Psychotherapy. A kind of therapy using psychology. HeadleyDown 07:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Programming is neutral enough. Looks to be very clear and the opening works fine that way. HeadleyDown 07:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Any reference to results of NLP in testing should be very concisely summarised. There are a great many other statements that are far more relevant to Sharpley's kind words about the use of many pseudosciences in psychotherapy. Another paper concluding that NLP was ineffective actually stated that dianetics is also ineffective, but is still used in fringe practices. Regards HeadleyDown 07:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
No FT2, the paragraph is a neutral scientific statement of fact. I do have a solution though. It does not concern the opening, but I do have a source that states that many pseudosciences are promoted in psychotherapy, especially concerning fringe practices. Its a fair and factual statement. I will see how it fits. Cheers HeadleyDown 07:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I can accept that, VoiceOfAll, though it is not as immediately clarifying as the previous. I do suggest a couple of word changes. Notice that "the study of structure of subjective etc" is considered an outrageous claim by more than a few scientists, and rather than belief about structure, it is more of an assumption. I will make the changes, see how it looks to you. Regards HeadleyDown 07:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Looks fine. I made some small adjustments also. Cheers HeadleyDown 08:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I think the intro is acceptable. JPLogan 09:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. You have just committed a serious offense in your personal attack. But in response, I am going to point out in as polite a way possible your biases.
Your approach to NLP has been one of posting your own POV on the page (your own perceptions of what you think are inconsistencies), and your own claims that you think NLP is really powerful (yes you said that despite the strong evidence of NLP's ineffectiveness), and you have placed a section of speculation from a paper (1987) on the opening in order to negate a recent finding (post 2000). I suggest you are biased:) I will look for remedies for this, but considering I have made multiple compromises today and I cannot see any from you so far, I am going to continue to compromise by reverting to the position of compromise agreed under mediation. HeadleyDown 13:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FT2. No, I have been here long enough to have read extremely deeply into all of the papers and books and I have most of the papers right here on my desk, so I know if people are misrepresenting the facts (eg by snipping bits out of paragraphs without quoting the negative finding at the end:). The latter references quote Sharpley correctly because, like myself, they actually do research professionally. Their representation of Sharpley is that NLP is unsupported. They quote other review papers that say NLP is pseudoscientific in theory, pseudoscientific in association of principles, and of course ineffective in experiment and practice. All the latter scientists who do overall reviews say the same. They also state many other reasons why NLP is pseudoscience. Now most people know that there are pseudosciences used within psychotherapy, but they don't like it. People blame NLP, and they blame the way it is promoted by the main developers. To state that NLP is unsupported and therefore has been classed as pseudoscientific is really very neutral. Regards HeadleyDown 15:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. The section of Sharpley's article you present below is unrepresentative of Sharpley. Not only have you misrepresented his overall tone, but you have taken a small section of an argument that he presents in the paper to support your desire to promote NLP. Now, as you very well know, Sharpley concluded at the end of the paragraph you have partially represented, that NLP had been relegated.
At the end of the paper, Sharpley says that the research does not in any way support the ridiculous claims of NLP.
He put it in negative terms. Not only that but the statement that you present is higly inconclusive and totally unfit for an encyclopedia. He uses words like, may, perhaps, etc. He makes a statement about psychoanalysis being hard to test. But as you know, he believes the tenets of NLP to be perfectly testable. If you wish to take a word out of a critical paper such as "good" and state that Smith thinks NLP is good, when in fact Smith said that NLP is good for nothing, then you have misrepresented that article. JPLogan 01:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Mmm. FT2, I just looked up what my academic writer's manual says about your type of attribution. They call it "intellectual fraud". Oh dear! HeadleyDown 02:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Don't worry about Headley, FT2. I actually like you; I think fanatics are hillarious. DaveRight 02:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi again VoiceOfAll. I added your suggestions to the intro (calibration and programing). Tell us what you think. Regards HeadleyDown 02:52, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks VoiceOfAll. I will see what I can do about the programing relationship. Regards HeadleyDown 00:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello. I noticed that the opening really did not represent the article as a whole. So I added another paragraph in order to represent the article properly. I think more critique can be added. We have 3 large paragraphs giving NLP its say, but had only one little concise one saying what the scientists say. I added one for the critics. Regards HeadleyDown 14:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Yup! I agree. The opening is totally skewed towards promotion of NLP, and not much has been stated about the criticisms. It could be a lot clearer there. Now I have noticed on many other articles that the opening is stated properly (there is a statement about what the article presents, and then there is a qualifier from critics etc. The NLP article opening needs rebalancing to include a lot more criticism in order to make it represent the article properly. DaveRight 01:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello. Yes they are used all the time and are in the new books and editions on NLP. They are also used as the tests have tested them in the research. Here is evidence:
a. NLP coach uses the eye diagram lead/preferred/primaryRS, and says that people can be primarily one or the other also. The NLP Coach: A Comprehensive Guide to Personal Well-being and Professional Success Ian McDermott, Wendy Jago
b. Molden. Managing with the Power of NLP / eye diagram lead/preferred/primaryRS, and has a lot of information on preferred 1996
c. Dilts Bandler Metastates in A User Manual for the Brain Vol 2 2000 page 270 Diagram placing PRS as core to NLP. This puts prs and rs at the core of NLP in the recent model.
I was taught the primary representation system recently and it is still used in modeling according to my trainers (Grinder trainers). Sincerely. HansAntel 02:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Rep systems are certainly taught in both the old and new books and trainings on NLP. I've had no time for a bit (and still have little), but we have to make clear the difference between Rep Systems, Primary Rep Systems, and Preferred Rep Systems - at the moment all 3 seem to be being used synonymously. By separating that we can also show changes to how Preferred RS is taught. I'll have a look at the main article perhaps you've already sorted that out? Oh, HansAntel - what does Molden say about preferred rep systems? GregA 10:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Could use more clarity, some POV remains, to much use of "many".
This one looks to me to be resolved after Headley's editing. What do you think VoiceOfAll? Regards JPLogan 09:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Had some POV, could use minor style rewordings. Voice of All T| @| Esperanza 03:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
If there is doubt please discuss here, rather than fully and indiscriminately reverting, since the above are believed factual, credibly supported, and relevant to balance the present viewpoint. FT2 13:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I've tried to pull this into Wikipedia standard form, without loss or slanting of information.
There is already an article at Modeling (NLP), I have first, merged all the information in this section into that article, so that it is there for other readers. Secondly, I have then updated the main NLP article to give an overview based upon that article's introduction and criticisms section, which explains modeling, overviews it, and reports criticisms of it. Third, I have linked to the full article as backup.
The "wide uses" referred to include for example - models of anger, used in health services for anger management, sports modeling, advocacy modeling used by lawyers, interview modeling used by law enforcement, spelling and teaching models used in education, and so on.
The test of the success of this is, would someone reading it, feel they know what NLP modeling is (in overview), and its criticisms (again in overview). They can then check the related article for detail.
FT2 20:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FT2. Presently the NLP modelling page is full of hype and exagerated claims. I wonder why you didn't notice:) That will change soon enough. Regards HeadleyDown 00:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
the american cancer society has some info about NLP.
there have been no large-scale randomized clinical trials of the method. One small-scale study found that NLP might be effective in treating phobias. However, a National Research Council committee did not find the theories or practices of NLP to be well founded. Indeed, some studies have found that eye movement is not a consistent marker of type of mental processing. This appears to contradict the observations of the NLP founders.
Several reviews of the literature have reported there is little or no evidence to support the effectiveness of NLP. A survey of 139 psychologists listed in the National Register of Health Service Providers in Psychology found that the soundness of NLP was questionable. More scientific research is needed to determine if NLP may help any medical or psychological condition.
FuelWagon 17:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, they are asking practitioners to start putting NLP through clinical tests themselves. Certainly psychology scientists are not going to do it considering the pseudoscientific theories and poor pre-clinical results. Refs can be provided. Regards HeadleyDown 00:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
It claims it is 'The only professional organisation for psychotherapists and counsellors using Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP).
The link is here. FuelWagon 17:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
NLPtCA is a Member Organisation of the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy (UKCP). This umbrella organisation seeks to agree national standards across the whole range of approaches to psychotherapy and counselling.
Yes, this puts NLP within psychotherapy in perspective to some extent. Remember that CBT etc are hugely represented within psychotherapy compared to NLP. The NLPtca is about the only organization that has any standards at all. The UKCP really wants to keep them under scrutiny (I mean make sure they behave themselves). Anyway, just remember how little weight this assoc carries:) Not trying to diss the assoc here, just read the literature and you will see that NLP is mostly the wild west. Regards HeadleyDown 00:52, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Its just a simple question of weight, Greg. Placing a huge paragraph in the opening section that seems to imply that NLP is an entirely respectable set of psychotherapists is quite ridiculous. Also, associating the group with other unconnected associations is also akin to a lie. HeadleyDown 12:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Greg. Sure, that was the problem. Promoters keep putting junk in the opening that wasn't even represented in the main body. Its a pretty sure sign that people are fanatical. Just a pointer on bias! HeadleyDown 13:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
The word "scientists" is a bit... odd to describe the critics of NLP. Do these people have specific job titles? FuelWagon 15:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FuelWagon. Going for another reframe?:) OK, let me explain. Bandler and Grinder are pulling another fast one. They are making the author believe that they are conducting real qualitative research (As if!). What the author doesn't realise is that qualitative also has to be rigorous. It also has to be peer reviewed by independent peers who do not have vested interests and are not likely to say "Yes! You can learn to walk on water using NLP":) Or "Yes. Using NLP a guruworshiping idiot who likes to read cretinous self help pseudoscience can be Eistein if they wiggle their eyes about in just the right direction". Bandler and Grinder have not done science within NLP. Promoters do continue to call them scientists. Fanatics call Bandler "Dr Bandler" and he does not own a medical certificate or PhD. NLP has certainly not earned the title "science". But it has earned the title "pseudoscience". Note that there are research studies in all kinds of subjects that are qualitative, interpretive etc and are not pseudoscience. From what I have read about the researchers of NLP who call it pseudoscience, they have all conducted qualitative studies, and have conducted lab studies, clinical studies, and field studies in an empirical way. Bandler and Grinder have conducted coke sniffing parties at Esalen in order to further their financial interests in NLP:) Their well deserved charlatan/pseudoscientist/shaman label is well deserved. Cheers DaveRight 01:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
In case there was some confusion, and there seems to be some confustion here, I was talking about this sentence: "scientists such as Eisner, (2000); Lilienfeld et al (2003), Helisch (2004); Williams et al (2000), Drenth (2003)". What is Eisner's credentials for criticizing NLP? Is he a therapist? a psychologist? What? "Scientist" is simply too vague to say he qualifies as someone who gets to criticize NLP. FuelWagon 05:31, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FuelWagon. From what I have read they are all slightly different types of scientist. I suppose you could write "a clinical psychotherapist with degrees in psychology and a doctorate in psychology, a psychologist and researcher of psychology as used in psychotherapy and editor of the Scientific Review of Pseudoscience in Psychotherapy (a large body of therapists and psychologists who have classed NLP as pseudoscience), and a practicing psychotherapist and professor of psychology, and another large body of psychologist doctorates who class NLP as pseudoscience, and a psycholinguist with a phd in psychology. But I think that would be a bit long. They are all scientists so I would class them as such. I reckon all 100+ or so of them would be a representative sample by any statistical measure, and they all say NLP is pseudoscience. Best regard Bookmain 06:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Go ahead Comaze. I have some wicked research on that one also. But keep it concise. The scientific conclusion is pretty abrupt and aptly put:) DaveRight 02:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
In this edit [40] . After checking the sources for Bandler and Grinder, they do not refer to 'psychic energy' only 'energy' -- as in collateral energy (Bateson 1972) -- it is powered by metabolism. I added the page numbers so you can check this yourself. This is a necessary distinction to resolve some ambiguity. -- Comaze 13:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I want to add this sentance to the Energy section (last paragraph). "A notable exception is John Grinder (1986) agree who is intolerant of the uncritical importation of fuzzy concepts of energy into the discussion of thinking and language, this is in line with Gregory Bateson (1972, 1979)." -- Comaze 13:31, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. Firstly what does Grinder quote about energy? And are there any comments that he makes to qualify this? ie, I am sure I read him talking of psychic energy somewhere:) I only have to look through my notes. HeadleyDown 14:20, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. I think its fair to say that people are getting a little crazy with organization and weight here.
Firstly, NLP is a pseudoscience and science gets priority and greater weight.
Secondly, the most sensible and intuitive flow is 1State what NLP claims(the map), and 2 State what science and critics say about NLP (the reality) (because science is overwhelmingly critical of NLP).
So please realise how accommodating neutral editors are being here, when NLP gets a huge say in the opening, then there is some (smaller) criticism. It is completely fanatical of people to paste strategically snipped and intellectually fraudulent stuff afterwards (one small part of Sharpley's argument that concluded that NLP had been ditched. The scientific conclusion is negative. Full stop! HeadleyDown 13:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I have compromised with you on far too much already. It is far more reasonable to represent the criticism more fully within the opening. I am fairly representing the opening by being brief. Your so called critical caveat is one part of a single study that reads as a positive conclusion. As you know, the passage you have presented states that NLP maybe could possibly be thought of as being like psychoanalysis. Then it says that if there is anything that could be tested and it fails, then it relegates the field. So NLP has been relegated (it is worse than psychoanalysis). The other conclusion is that NLP claims are scientifically unsupported.
In addition to that. NLP is criticised by a great many other researchers after this 1987 paper. The are within various fields such as business studies, training, psychotherapy, psychology, and so on, and they all say that Sharpley says that NLP is ineffective, unsupported etc. That is their view, not mine. I will represent the views of scientists and critics exactly how they are represented in the literature. You are a complete fanatic who will look for any reason to promote NLP back into the outlandishly exaggerated nonsense that it is.
Also, pseudoscience is used widely. This is a criticism of pseudoscience. People criticise NLP for being part of this problem. NLP is promoted in some business sectors, and of course people fall for the hype. Business writers also state how pseudoscientific NLP is. That will be represented. Pseudosciences are used in therapy. That is criticised. That will be represented.
So, FT2. You are presenting a completely twisted view.
The literature that I have on these matters is very broad and deep. Now, either you start realising exactly how reasonable the non fanatical editors are, or science will indeed be represented with far more weight than the pseudoscince that you are promoting. HeadleyDown 15:17, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
PS.... OK, FT2. Now here is a solution. If you can find literature that states "Sharpley says NLP is lovely, just like psychoanalysis", then that passage is fine. However, so far, the only lit that I have quotes "Sharpley says NLP is ineffective, perfectly testable and pseudoscientific, and scientifically unsupported". Actually Sharpley is quoted for saying NLP is a cult, fad, ridiculously promoted, dubious, etc. HeadleyDown 15:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, FT2. I know Sharpley doesn't say its lovely. You have no way of getting a the overview of science that says NLP is lovely. It doesn't exist. You are not presenting a balanced view. He stated that if it is testable and fails, then it is relegated. Of course it was tested, and it failed. You deliberately missed that point out. YOU are deliberately misrepresenting Sharpley. Plus you have not referred to how other people see Sharpley's conclusion. You have once again taken your own POV and pulled your favourite bit out (and out of context) in order to promote NLP. You are behaving in a fanatical manner. Your edit will simply get reverted. HeadleyDown 16:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. Again, the note, was your view, but it is not the view of any cited source. Parker was clearly represented, and is valid. HeadleyDown 16:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. Your citation of Sharpley is fraudulent. You have decided to present only the parts you like and cut the lower and more negative conclusion off of the quote.
The overview of every scientist who quoted Sharpley says that Sharpley found that NLP's effectiveness and claimed principles were scientifically unsupported. Sharpleys CONCLUSION was that:
"CERTAINLY research data do not support the rather extreme claims that the proponents of NLP have made as the the validity of its principles or the novelty of its procedures". (Sharpley 1987).
That CAN be represented because that is Sharpley's conclusion. HeadleyDown 16:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. Do you actually believe what you say? I rather doubt it. You have not been editing this article long enough to find all the refs. In general it is wise to conclude with the latest information and talk of how people came to that conclusion.
Your method seems to involve making a conclusion, then stating only the positive parts of the arguments that led to the conclusion. Its like saying: If you fly an airliner into the World Trade Center you will kill a lot of innocent people. BUT if you are following your religious rituals to the rule, then it is perfecly fine and you will have the support of God and all righteous persons and will certainly go to heaven.
Perhaps you should go to work on the terrorism article! DaveRight 03:34, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. You censored the bottom of the paragraph for the sake of fanatical promotion. You are biased. YOU told me that you think NLP is extremely powerful. The SCIENCE goes against that. You persist in posting your own POV on the article. YOU have not read the research. You seem to care nothing for history. NLP has plummeted to pseudoscientific status since it has failed to provide evidence for efficacy since the 80s.
You present Sharpley as if he thinks NLP is just like psychoanalysis. He actually states that it is relegated to QUESTIONABLE status in terms of professional accountability. (clearly because NLP proponents make wild claims that fail to be even normally effective). Psychoanalysis proponents do not make wild claims about giving people orgasms just by talking, or learning photographic memory etc.
The one line with the greatest certainty is the one I provided for you in the opening. It is the line that the other researchers refer to when they talk of NLP's pseudoscientific status. HeadleyDown 17:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Mmm. I think I know what's going on here. It seems that FT2 has not much actual information on NLP testing and has only one negative paper on NLP and wants to screw as much positive out of it to promote his darling NLP. OK, now here is the sequence of statements in the text to help all other people clarify what Comaze, um I mean FT2 is trying to do.
1. The results of Sharpley's paper show that NLP is unsupported by data. 2. Sharpley discusses. (note that in a discussion session you use lots of perpapses, maybes, mays etc because you are being speculative) 3 During his speculative discussion he says that NLP is unsupported. 4 Then he says that Einspruch MAY be right about difficulties in testing 5 Then he says that IF that is so NLP MAY be in the same category as psychoanalysis 6 Then he says BUT......If it is tested and fails, then it is relegated (relegated means that it drops in the eyes of scientist. NLP has fallen. Dumped etc
8 Sharpley concludes (just as in the quote presented by Headley) that CERTAINLY, NLP is unsupported by the scientific data.
Sharpley does not say NLP is unsupported BUT it is just like psychoanalysis. He says that NLP would be like psychoanalysis, BUT it has failed in tests.
Now we all know that Comaze, um I mean FT2 is completely fanatical about NLP. The latest up to date (current) information on the scientific testing of NLP shows very clearly that it is scientifically unsupported. The views of scientists (not just Sharpley but other more recently published writers (not 20 years ago)) are that NLP is pseudoscientific because it is unsupported, because NLP pseudos like to twist the findings after the fact, because NLP pseudos use even more obscurantisms etc.
Since the dawning of the Internet wild west, and the mass sale of snakeoil, NLP has seriously fallen down to negative cultic levels in the eyes of scientists and psychotherapists.
The present opening is very mild. If you want to keep pushing it, Comaze, I mean FT2, then you will find it suddenly becoming far more balanced towards science and away from skewed pseudoscience. JPLogan 01:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I reckon the opening needs a bit more representation of science. I'll do the honours. Regards DaveRight 03:34, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. You are wrong again. You took the above statements (strategically altered to remove the damning evidence against you) from JP's reply. Its JP, not Headley. Please quote without twisting facts. AliceDeGrey 05:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Wrong again, FT2. I noticed that the definitions you refer to are actually the ones that VoiceOfAll presented. NLP is really deliberately confusing (in order to get people to by something they assume is science). Good encyclopedic writing will use brief and clear definitions or descriptions that the reader will understand. You seem to be advocating the wholesale use of psychobabble. Its quite funny, but shouldn't be presented in openings. If you want to make people giggle, you could place that kind of obscrure nonsense in the criticism section. DaveRight 09:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Would you care to explain why Sharpley's words - like psychoanalysis - are useful but the conclusion (NLP is relegated from psychoanalysis)? I know its useful for you, because you want to promote NLP. But its pretty useless for people who want to know what Sharpley thinks. "OK Sharpley, what is your conclusion!?" "NLP is a fad" "Oh!". The Druckman "Outdated metaphors" thing is also the view of other recent reviews. The "NLP study limitations" part is not important because every study of any scientific rigor will include sections that talk of limitations, and they always mention that there are limitations. It is scientific convention. Of course, the Druckman study did not include the Sharpley 1987 study refuting Einspruchs claims and providing further evidence and research for NLP's scientific failures. But why am I explaining all this stuff? If you had been around here for the past 18 months you would have read this answer about 5 times over already. DaveRight 09:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and which scientific sources state that "There is an inconsistency between critics who claim NLP is ineffective and those who think it is a dangerously powerful cult technique?" Oh, it was you! Where did you publish that finding? The NLP creative writing journal for the promotion of psuedoscience? DaveRight 09:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Thats interesting Greg. So if I were to post that little bit of vague nonsense on the article, would I cite you or FT2? DaveRight 03:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I say FT2! You really are very naughty! I just checked the Sharpley 87 ref again and he did conclude from his argument that NLP was relegated down from psychoanalysis. Whats more, you claim to be neutral! Not only is you behaviour very naughty, but it is by far the silliest behaviour of all the NLP promoters here. I understand you feel extremely miserable about NLP being sci unsupported pseudoscience. But you found the article, saw that there was a positive line or two within the paragraph and said to yourself:
"Mmm! That conclusion is painfully negative, but if I shave it off, then NLP looks like clinical psychology again!".
You should know that people are going to notice and place the actual conclusion as they actually are in fact. You should also realise that it will lead to more damning detail being presented in order to show exactly how warped and desperate your biased edits are. People here are actually trying to be kind. I have some extremely crushing reviews from Europe and I havn't yet found a way to present them without NLP looking like mass marketed devilry.
Now lets have no more naughty silliness from FT2 or any of the other NLP promoters. Regards AliceDeGrey 05:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I can give you my research. You remember how Heap mentioned in 1988 that if NLP does not stand up to scrutiny or presents evidence of its efficacy etc, then the verdict will be damning indeed? Well I will present his damning words on the article. I think that is what you are asking for. Bookmain 06:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi again FT2. I'm a true nature's child, I was born to be mild. I think NLP is radical. Radically twisted. I have noticed quite a lot of promotion on wikipedia and I find it personally insulting. I have stuck around here due to the high density:) of NLP promoters who would probably paste:
"NLP is defined as the difference that makes the difference, and is a scientifically supported rapid behaviour change method decades ahead of the current state of psychotherapy that will help YOU to ATTAIN EXCELLENCE. It is scientifically defined as THE empirical study of the magical structure of your own excellently subjective experiences. NOW, it was developed by two extremely talented psychotherapists by metamodeling and as you HOLD ONTO THAT IDEA, you will DISCOVER FOR YOURSELF amazing wonder in your OWN UNLIMITED POWER to become whatever you want to be, beyond what you ever previously thought. Currently figures of excellence such as presidents, heads of state, geniuses and a great many other great minds have stated that it is important to BUY INTO NLP to attain even greater success, and COMMIT to NLP to solve your every problem. NLP is the healthy option for rapid increase in excellence and a way to AVOID ANTI NLP THINKING. Some miserable critics have dismissed NLP with limited knowledge and totally failed to test NLP for themselves. To MOVE BEYOND NEGATIVE THINKING, NLP has been empirically proven through multiple observations of accredited practitioners to be by far the most powerful technologies of excellence available to you. NOW, here are some links to my commercial site...."
Anyway, I think you catch my drift. I have seen a lot of hype, and part of it comes from you. DaveRight 09:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Greg/FT2 (definitely not sockpuppets of each other, you make slightly different mistakes, FT2's being the funniest). Of course I'm exaggerating. But only to make a point. NLP promoters did write "the difference that makes the difference" and so on, and are extremely stubborn when it came to removing those kind of promotions. I have a question for FT2; Do you think Sharpley writes in a straw man kind of way? If so, I think you need to consider looking in the mirror again. In continued response to your enquiry about the research; I see absolutely no reason to consider the positive side of a negative result. This is an encyclopedia, and the concise result will be used. Otherwise, you will end up supersizing the article. I noticed since FT2's mass changes to the article, it has actually more than doubled in size. When Comaze and the other self interested NLP promoters were working on their seperate hype page, the article suddenly got down to wiki recommended size. I get the impression that the NLP promoters have spent a lot of time trying to work their own little excuses into the article with absolutely no regard for concision. But then again, I also find it quite entertaining, so perhaps I shouldn't complain too much. DaveRight 03:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. The one thing consistent with NLP lovers is that they are constantly accusing people of not answering questions. Its as if they do not understand anything. It is blatantly clear what our opinions are. I am a scientist and I believe in and understand science. It is the most independent and neutral force within the advancement of knowledge. There are other bodies of knowledge that I have great respect for. Research in general is an excellent activity. Especially if it is rigorous and thorough. NLP is not broadly used. There was interest in NLP from therapists in the beginning, but it dwindled because therapists adhere to science to a fairly good level. The empirical research conducted on NLP is rigorous and credible and it will clarify things well for this article. I intend to represent the most neutral empirical knowledge that we have access to, and represent the most independent views on what that means. There is nothing more to say about it. If you want to ask questions, you know you will probably get answers. If you start hyping NLP above science then you will be told you are wrong by me or probably by someone else. If you vandalise or post unreasonable comments then you will probably be told not to. It is simple wikipedia process. I believe quite strongly in it and it seems to be working. Mediation suits me (because I believe mediators are about as neutral as me, and because they generally adhere to wikipedia's scientific bias). Arbitration is fine also, though it really is a very long way off, and as far as I can tell we have been moving in the opposite direction (towards stability). If that does not satisfy your question, feel free to ask further or more specifically. HeadleyDown 16:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. I do not see anyone avoiding this question. I do see you trying to avoid people from noticing that you have been selectively editing whilst accusing others of that crime. As I said, NLP is not broadly used in psychotherapy, and the initial enthusiasm resulted in a lot of dumping after the original claims were found to be false. The research is correct citable and credible. The research is very useful for determining how well NLP works. So far, it really doesn't work, and it completely fails to live up to the claims of the originators. I am quite satisfied with that. Exactly how much do you dispise the facts, and how would you like to cover them up?
AliceDeGrey
11:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Short answer. Not broadly used, and the science is plausible, credible, and useful. HeadleyDown 16:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. Thank you for specifying your question more carefully as I requested. The prior empirical studies that show some small positive results have been explained as such (little evidence for efficacy). The empirical evidence that points to NLP being wrong is often entitled such as "Eye accessing cues: A statistical anomaly" or something like that. The reason being, the cues, nods, winks etc of NLP are deceptive. They are neither here nor there. They give no particular signal as to what people are thinking, how they are thinking, or what part of the brain they are using etc. It is similar to the research on mirroring. One of the most telling experiments was conducted on subjects who were told how mirroring works, and comparing with subjects who were not told. Mirroring was conducted, and the people who were told of it's effect beforehand were mightilly impressed and found the mirrorer very persuasive (subjective measures). The people who were not warned of mirroring found no difference between parrots and normal communicators. Furthermore, the theory behind what was tested is pseudoscience anyway. As you know, the overview gives a negative result. That is useful. Taking the "little positive" studies on their own really is just like you snipping a little positive section out of a critique, minus the negative conclusion. Regards HeadleyDown 01:47, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
If the history of this discussion has demonstrated anything, it's the pointlessness of trying to engage Headleydown and his ridiculous sock-puppets in a constructive dialogue. lets just get to arbitration a.s.a.p. The guy clearly has nothing better to do than be a self-appointed pedant and a time-waster. Why bother talking to him at all, I bet you all can guess his standard responses and evasions by now - talking to him clearly achieves nothing in terms of moving towards a fairer and more representative article Faxx 14:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
This is funny also, Faxx. When I came to this article, I was welcomed by Comaze. He pasted a sockpuppet label on my site. I decided to keep it and have posted an explanation. Now, again, I would actually love to go through a bit of arbitration. I have buckets of negative press to chuck on the NLP article. Notice how I have not actually added them? What does that suggest to you? Does it mean that I am a really nice fair minded chap, or does it mean that I simply want to keep the article as neutral and encyclopedic as poss? DaveRight 03:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
To Dave Right. Oh really then you must have some really positive stuff on NLP too Mr Right. Please indulge with both. Justin. Please answer?
Hello Faxx. Perhaps you could take up your problem with the mediator:) HeadleyDown 16:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. You state that you have been around for a long time, but you didn't notice that Faxx has added comment here already? I think that you should care more about what people have posted, and be more cooperative with them, and stop trying to add your own opinion to the article. DaveRight 03:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FT2. Don't be too worried about the sockpuppet thing. Except for VoicOfAll, the neutrally minded long term editors have all had sockpuppet labels posted on their own articles, sometimes several times, never with supporting evidence, and sometimes with vandalism to their own statements or resumes and so on by NLP promoters. So it really is quite easy to identify the neutral editors. I havn't noticed any particular vandalism or accusations to the NLP promoter articles. However, TBP seems to be a self confessed sockpuppet and has supported your views very consistently (but then again all the NLP fanatics follow closely to your own fanatical edits and views). So the sockpuppet allegations/admissions are really very clear. NLP promoters see neutral and they post sockpuppet, neutral editors generally laugh it off as the desperate slurs of terminally unconvincing NLP promoters. Regards DaveRight 08:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Second posting - does that count as new? More a voyeur than an editor really. Comment stands, no point in talking to this guy IMHO
Faxx
16:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2 has already moved for arbitration not long ago. There were votes although I did not participate due to not really participating in the editing. I've just been reading the endlesly recycling discussion. Nothing will get done this way. HeadleyDown obviously has nothing better to do with his time than pursue his crusade Faxx 11:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello Faxx. If wikipedia policy and process is the crusade, then I'm all for it. I seem to have a lot of support for it, including from the mediator VoiceOfAll. Regards HeadleyDown 12:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Actually, Faxx. It is not entirely unconstructive. Each cycle involves NLP fanatics moaning about not liking the facts, so the neutral editors go and find more facts to satisfy the complaints. More facts means a better and more solid article. One way to stop the cycle is to stop moaning about the facts. That would also make for a very stable article. If the NLP fanatics were canny enough, they would have stopped moaning a couple of months ago, and we wouldn't have had to expose such detailed negative fact about NLP. It really is a case of - the deeper you dig, the dirtier it gets. HeadleyDown 12:31, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Oooh, what a totally unanticipated response Faxx 13:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
After being away for a couple days, I return to find the criticisim of NLP to be in complete violation of NPOV. You cannot report someone's opinion about NLP as if it were fact. If their opinion of NLP is in dispute with the opinion held by NLP folks, then you must report the view as a view. Please take a look at this diff that fixes a number of basic NPOV violations. Learn the difference. FuelWagon 02:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Mr Dave Right glad you are on board- However Headley Down presupposes we are "Fanatics" Not true and if veiled references are made through his writings it is made clear what he thinks of NLP and it's users and also his use of the Wikipedia which is quite extensive comnpared to my own of the subject, that he is non supportive of the concept, has not looked into positive reviews and has ignored facts to it's testimony. I personally have not made changes to the article and intend not to, I do however expect a responsibility to the article to be NPOV. A derogatory comment as NLP practitioners being involved in this article as being "fanatics" is an understatement compared to the level of his own involvement in the article.
O.K. heres one for you. Anthony Robbins was one of the top students of NLP when it began. However his methods were considerred by many in the NLP community to be cowboy in nature. Cowboy is the term given to those therapists who operate if not all the time then sometimes without the clients consent. It is widely taught in NLP schools he is a cowboy. However Richard Bandler the NLP co-creator in his book Persuasion Engineering written many years later in his thanks to people who he considerred genius' he cited Anthony Robbins as one of these genius'. So which way is it? Is Anthony a Cowboy or a Genius?
Justin. Under the circumstances, fan or fanatic is a mild term. Considering the rotten behavior of NLP promoters here, I believe the fanatic label is completely justified. It shows the level of bias very accurately. Remember that NLP promoters wanted to erase the fact that NLP is categorized as new age (even by NLP marketeers, and even though NLP is technically and anthropologically new age), and remember that NLP promoters wanted to remove the spirit and energy sections that are part of NLP and stated within the literature. NLP promoters here want to remove those facts in order to give the false impression that NLP is somehow reputable or broadley accepted as a respected subject of psychology or psychotherapy. In fact NLP is simply a dubious and ritualistic fringe treatment, just like EMDR, primal scream therapy, or energy/power therapies with some shamanism thrown in. NLP's biggest claim to fame is perfect NLP marriage promoter and divorcee Tony Robbins and firewalking. Bandler (the diet coach and obese shaman guru) comes far down the list of NLP fame in most people's view.
Not true. NLP and they are not promoters they are staying true to form, will not say that which is NLP which is not. Such as the comparison to Dianetics. Only such an unatuned mind would make such a distinction. Well Hell. You're right then. So lets change the name of the article. We'll call it "Dianetics". Oh but that's already taken. We better tell them to move out cos we want that name. O.K. then "Dianetics two" although I doubt we'll get Travolta to make a movie about it. No, NLP is quite different. It's not new age although it was created quite recently. I really dismiss all admissions of the term New age as being a tool to say a subject is propaganda to both generalise whole fields and dismiss them.
Promoters want to place NLP on the same level as the pseudoscientific subject of psychoanalysis, even though it has been scientifically demoted down from psychoanalysis.
What fine distinctions has Psychoanlayisis made that could not be made with NLP in psychoanalysis were that useful it would be promoted as useful by NLP Practitioners and then used. NLP moves far beyond that one Miss DeGrey. If you follow that NLP makes use of all useful models. On another note NLP moves away from analysis which requires one to look at each individual part and moves toward systems thinking which requires to see how parts fit together as a whole in a working system, as stated by Joseph O'connor in "the art of Systems thinking" this detracts from your comment of psycho ANALYSIS also as a NLPer becomes atuned as to how you work as a whole and not from some seperated part. please tell me there is more to this cos I know there is more to NLP. Good Day
Notice that NLP promoters will use as many references to "excellence, great minds, and high performers" when if fact all the developers do is read a few biographies and make it up as they go along (no way of judging if the models are correct) and NLP developers are totally unexcellent in providing rigorous theories and tests to support NLP.
Not true. as a communications tool the new NLPer fledgling starts to question as to how to aquire results. Fine distinctions are made without the aid of biographies. However the option to model someone from a Book is not closed.
Promoters want to quote "the study of the structure of subjective experience" but that in itself is a wild claim (NLPers do not study such things on the whole - they just do a bunch of rituals that some pseudoscientist claims will work for them). NLP should be defined as "claiming to know the structure of subjective experience and applying it as a universal panacea".
Rituals: MMM I could have fun with that. Doctors in our medical centres and hospitals do that study and then undergo ritualistic behaviour to heal. They even congregate in huge buildings that herald their profession and cite the hipocratic oath. So really what is a ritual? and what is a Cult? Clarity of what you mean will mean the world to me. and not only that it's practical.
If promoters spend months trying to remove facts, and trying to put hype into the article, whilst repeatedly stating that neutral editors "do not understand NLP" even though neutral editors have provided the article with solid rigorous scientific evidence, then fanatic is a great word for the promoters here. Since editing here, I am coming far more to the conclusion that NLP really is a kind of self-delusion inducing cult.
Facts: Like NLP is a CULT, Like NLP is exactly like Dianetics, Like NLP deals with engrams. None of these are mentioned in NLP literature
Headley seems to be biased towards science. I am admittedly becoming more biased towards science. Wikipedia is also biased towards science. Its the best way to keep the pseudoscience of NLP in order. AliceDeGrey 05:59, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
You're really funny FT2. Take a look into literature about cults, fringe therapies, dubious therapies etc. They place dianetics and NLP in the same category. Sorry, but you are well in there in both philosophy and practice. DaveRight 01:35, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
NLP is a Science isn't the only claim NLP developers have made and I think you are missing the point. Good day.
Oh and by the way have you never stopped yourself from seeing a movie because of bad reviews and then yourself given it bad reviews even though you've never seen it? Is that questionable?
No I have not said it is a higher order of knowledge only it is different as one person is to the next. And what of psychology do you make that it ranks higher than distinctions made by NLP. they too are different in form and context so what makes it any less valid. As for books on "past life experiences" you read books at your own peril and a writer does not represent the industry as a whole. Even spirituality is discussed in a matter in which it may be. NLPers are encouraged to try new models to see what they do and where they go. You do not have to follow a NLPer to the ends of the earth. This is called independance a bi product of NLP teachings. As for engrams which relates to memory NLP institutes refer memory change methods as submodalities. So what I can't understand (and I do agree that I have not read much on engrams) is that why is emphasis put on engrams when the emphasis in NLP is on submodalities. And even then who has written about engrams and in what context was it made. To tell you the truth one does not need to know about engrams to make radical memory changes please tell me it's relevance or how it takes the field forward. Submodalities suit just fine it does no more nor no less than what it is supposed to do. And even as an idea or a construct of ways of determining memory do not take for granted that engrams is not of a similar ilk.
I never said it was wise. I said it was there and is widely used in NLP teachings. please who is presuming Miss DeGrey. Justin
Submodalities are about as convincing as spirit therapy or phrenology. I dread to think of how many people have been put to death based on such nonsense as eye accessing cues or their submodalities. That kind of pseudoscience it totally unhelpful. Its mostly just silly, but after reading accounts of what goes on with these "therapies" I have to say, its actually quite worrying also. AliceDeGrey 07:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Really but to deny it's (submodalites) importance within NLP and it's students in this article would be ignorance. Do you know what a submodality is? and even then how it is used or I should say they are used. RE:"the science and technology of achievement" yes NLP borrows from other cultures religions and psychologies not because NLP or it's originators want to be them but because they work toward action toward a result. Justin
OK Justin. So you like pseudoscience. I am not keen. NLP likes to take scientific sounding words but no NLPer is willing to test NLP properly. And they still talk of Bandler and Grinder as if they are scientists. NLP is the archetypal source for psychobabble. NLP promoters make claims, and these are tested. They fail. In a way NLP works quite well. Not to help people, but to sell pseudoscientific books for getting people to repeat buy in order to buy more of the same junk because it is unsatisfying. To me, that looks like they are making people desperately insecure, and then never coming up with the goods. That is unethical. AliceDeGrey 08:02, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Who are they selling the books too. NLP practitioners who have done the course and know how to program therefore knowing what to do with them. But reaaly they're aimed at uneducated fools who wanna buy the first book on psychology that they see. Isn't that right Alice. LMAO. What righteous trash that is. They're not marketted that way. They are marketted to people who are already practicing. I dont consider NLP a pseudoscience. Always with scientists they wanna pidgeon hole something give it a name and stick it in a corner NLP eludes that. So try as you might it will not be labelled. Alice you're not NPOV. I make no claim to edit but to shape it. You dont learn NLP from books you learn it from a NLP trainer or practitioner that should be stated. The trance induced by such beings might have something to do with that.
Look you have said that NLPers on this article have complained that you need to know NLP to understand it. Have you ever turned around for more answers and just said enlighten me? Alice?
Wow you're really that NPOV? Justin
MMMM to be taken out of context. These are comparisons that bring up the ridiculous comparisons and likenesses you have come up with for NLP in your "research" Headley and partly some are jokes. However we must know that such things as cults once did not exist so really the concept iis created by man meaning man created a whole way to class specific groups with one word. a negative word. Fanatic can also be taken negatively and I see no difference of fanaticism in my stance in defending the subject and your stance to detract from it. I dont mock the medical profession I mock what you consider ritual to be. I never said NLP was exactly for preventing boredom though it can be done. NLP has more claims than just claiming to be a science a fact you must admit and or write about. The truth is that comment means when you read something you believe it at your own peril. I thought you knew that already about life. No I actually said it took the language beyond psycho babble, Maybe I should have said took it toward a workable model. Largely NLP is marketted that way I believe. Many people I talk to dont know what NLP is. So interest is not exactly thrust in it's direction from non NLPers looking for self help books. I think they'd prefer Doctor Phil who is more high profile. Yeah it can be labelled but who in NLP wants to do that unless it's useful. Yeah a trainer will make all the difference in NLP training. Please tell me you learnt it cold from a book. That would be amazing. Please tell me how did you do it? Yes NLPers can enjoy richer relationships and in most cases keep productive where employment is concerned was the point and also a jibe at yourself. Didn't say Anthony Robbins was a Genius. There was a comparison of opinion about him where you could go either way. Something not achieved in this article. and yes looking down does not mean that you are clinically depressed. Justin
You know upon my first training and modeling my life to the expectancy of what I would like for myself money was furthest from my mind and still is. If you follow film literature and you're own example that money is not the root of happiness and is infact materialistic then it is fair to assume that NLPers also follow a similar vein of thought and more so if it is a part of their personal psychology it is soon remedied with deeper meanings in life and the behaviours we use to fulfill intention. A lot of people know money will not fulfill and a NLPers questioning of his own inner purpose would contradict that money will bring happiness as well. I don't think of money when I do a job or NLP with someone. I dont even charge, that's just me though others will because NLP has become their profession. I'm more interested what I can do outside of NLP in terms of actually applying it in different fields. Your argument about money is weak and holds no bearing on the situation at hand I hope you do not use such justifications when writing an article on the Wikipedia after all: How do you know that money is a primary interest of people publishing their work and then wanting it to be sold? I do not argue that NLP is not pseudoscience you guys brought that one up all on your own. However upon looking it up there is a section that talks about how it is interpreted, usually negative. See all these words you use. Cult, Pseudoscience, Shamanism, Rituals, New Age etc.. to generalise a field, whilst NLP has some traits in common with these it does not posess all traits therefore the words you use are too general to use and misleading into areas that are not explored by core NLP or NLP foundations. However there is a huge section which I have consistently refferred to in this article that has multiple views on how NLP is dubious, unscientifically proven, shamanistic and so forth that misrepresent the field with examples of individuals rather than as a whole. maybe there should be other sections to different schools of thought on NLP rather than lumping them all together. I didn't say that for NLP to be a pseudoscience it has to claim to be a science. Please don't put words in my mouth it's awful dreadful and frightenning. If someone hadn't seen what I wrote earlier they might presume this is true. Justin
The preceding discussion seems to me to be meandering and becoming increasingly further removed from the original matters of concern. NPOV -- in this context can be achieved -- by stating the claims of NLP practitioners, eg. "Bandler claims...', 'Grinder claims...', 'Baffa claims...' and by emphasing that there is little in the way of evidence -- i.e. obtained using well-accepted and well-proven research and review methods -- to support these claims and that where studies have been conducted they have largely found against NLP's efficacy. On a theoretical level, NLP's implicit theoretrical statements about neurology, psycholinguistics, linguistics and cognition are outdated and derived from the 1970s when NLP was being formulated. NLP's theoretical underpinnings are largely a "snap shot" of neurological and linguistic theory of the 1970s.
The article states the above, to that extent it is NPOV.
Anecdote counts for little -- using anecdote we can "prove" anything eg. "if you smoke and drink heavily you'll live to 90 years of age" -- and NLP proponents seek to justify NLP with reference largely to anecdote. Whether the anecdote is personal or in the form of a "case study" is immaterial both are unreliable as evidence.
All of the healings and behavioural changes attributed to NLP can be just as well attributed to non-specific factors of the "treatment" (i.e. the placebo effect). In the absence of blinded and controlled studies we can just as well conclude that Mrs Smiths arachnophobia was relieved not by a brilliant execution of the "Fast Phobia Cure" but merely by the non-specific factors of the "null" treatment i.e. patient expectation, patient belief regarding treatment and patient-therapist trust. The significance of non-specific factors is well researched and well-understood (see http://journals.apa.org/prevention/volume6/pre0060001a.html, http://www.journals.apa.org/prevention/volume6/pre0060006c.html#c1 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect).
The purpose of controlled and blinded studies is to determine whether treatment X is more effective than placebo (and to a lesser extent to determine the magnitude of non-specific factors in a treatment). If a treatment has not been subject to this kind of examination then there is no reason to assume that anything other than non-specific factors are in effect when that treatment is applied.
The only recent form of psychotherapy that has demonstrated value -- i.e. better than placebo -- is Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy. That is to say, CBT has been demonstrated to possess more efficacy than would be expected if only non-specific factors were in effect.
Further, modern medicine's (including psychology and psychiatry's) appreciation of non-specific factors in treatment is demonstrative that the medical profession (research and clinical) acknowledges that the mind (more specifically the meaning ascribed to an encounter) powerfully influences the outcome of a medical encounter. Non-specific factors and their influence on the outcome of a treatment are ever-present and unavoidable: they are present when any medical practitioner prescribes a drug, they are present when the witchdoctor spills the blood of a chicken, they are present when the shaman utters an incantation, they are present when Bandler asks his wide-eyed volunteer to "roll the anxiety in the other direction" in an NHR session, and they are present when a Reiki practitioner lays their hands. The vital difference between the medical practitioner and the others is that medical practitioners intervention brings more than non-specific factors, the drug trials which preceded the drugs introduction assure us of this, i.e. there are specific attributes of the drug which exert a beneficial physiological effect. The point is that NLP has not been demonstrated to be anything more than a delivery mechanism for non-specific factors. This is entirely consistent with the anecdotes regarding NLPs efficacy. flavius 06:06, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Flavius. There is more to it than that though. The anecdotes are mixed with principles that have been found to be scientifically unsupported. Robbins talks of psychology, as do others including Dilts, who also talks about neuroscience. In addition to this, anecdotes by doctors and psychotherapists are generally not wild claims. A large percentage of NLP uses wild claims, in both its principle hypotheses and its marketing push. Put simply, the views of scientists are that they have tested NLP and it does not measure up. It is a pseudoscientific subject for many reasons. Therefore, the anecdotes regarding NLP's efficacy are criticised for being totally wild, and they do not even measure up to normal standards. CBT does have good support (and certainly does not suffer from exaggerated claims) though there are far more therapies that have gained scientific support. Regards AliceDeGrey 06:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Good points all, flavius. There is one significant piece of missing information. There is substantial research that has tested NLP, either in its principles, or in the field, that has repeatedly concluded it can be effective when tested with an appropriately designed test or in a clinical context. As you will recall, the major criticism of many researches has been, that the tests were poorly designed, or that NLP needed to be tested in its own context. As best I can tell, there is now significant evidence that this is the case and has been done. Additionally, whilst anecdotal evidence by paractitioners is correctly identified as a source of bias, and must be examined carefully for the placebo effect which is the immediate suspect in many new techniques, anecdotal evidence should not be dismissed when it becomes of a serious scale, and likely not to merely be the placebo effect. NLP is widely used in many non-NLP contexts, where it is reported positively by credible sources. For these reasons I have suggested that it is inaccurate to state that NLP is unsupported, or dismissed, because it is clear that it is valued in the field by credible non-NLP organisations and mixed results in scientific testing, and at the same time, some others consider it highly dubious. That sounds like a pretty classic Wikipedia "present both views and the evidence". That's why I am at a loss why this article is being so heated and controversial. FT2 10:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
selective reading, selective hearing, selective maps of the world, selective words, selective concepts to use, selective belief. are your edits selective too Mr. Headley? and even then would you know how to make the difference?
Yes FlaviusVanillus. NLP users love to quote Korzybski, but they do so very selectively. Take a look at the intellectual anticedents section on this page. Its outrageous. Most of them will be turning in their grave to think NLPers are namedropping them into the pseudoscience swamp. I think this does come back to the scientific skepticism idea. One piece of pseudoscience says that you must suspend judgment in order to create ideas. NLP does this a lot. But actually, thats all 60s business bunk. The fact is, an expert has a good intuitive idea of whether something will hold or not (intuition in terms of "will this work?"). So if they hear something spurious within idea generation they will drop it like a skunk's legpit. It does not stop them generating; strong skepticism just directs their search better. Anyway, even in groups, idea generation (the amount of ideas generated and the quality) is enhanced through skepticism and dissent. That has been consistent in recent research and goes directly against what new age pseudoscience proposes and assumes throughout (Nemeth 1999 - Minority dissent and idea generation). Anyway, its really interesting stuff. Popular misconceptions and learning from pseudoscientist's mistakes! Cheers
DaveRight
03:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2: last night I went to look up NLP and science to see reports. I sort of don't want to enter the debate on the particulars with these guys. I could research it more and come up with arguments however it seems futile at the moment. The last few passages I wrote was more an appeal to the editors to do the right thing however skeptical I am of their view of NLP. I say good work with trying to come up with a solution. Keep going please. Lame excuses may come out not to use them. Any way I didnt get to the research as such but came across a page by someone who had also researched NLP and it's claim to science. Yeah we get creamed if we try to say it is a science, I'm not too fazed about that, Nor about it being pseudoscience. Some labels bother me due to misrepresentation I'd hope that people would know how to make the distinction. This guy in the article says in his research he found that developers didnt even want to try and prove it was a science. FT2 if you are a NLPer we both know what a NLPer may feel about trying to prove himself or a theory. This news I hope will be valuable to you and perhaps if you research it, it can be used if proven true then it surely would have some weight as to the outcome of what some testers might have thought "mindreading" toward the NLP advocates. Also Headley the "lame excuse's" line is getting old. I'd like to know what the lame excuses were if you are so inclined to tell us. That's a genuine request. My feeling is that whilst an explaination may not rest well with a tester it may have made perfect sense to a NLPer. PLease tell these "lame excuses" sometimes you have to demonstrate the situation to fully know the communication and it's validity in the original context to be able to know if they were "lame excuses". Justin
Well, I see my changes have been reverted with some brief explanation from Hans. I'll present my changes here to get comments and resubmit my changes based on responses. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
All I changed was "Heap etc find that NLP to be pseudoscience" to "Heap etc state that NLP is a pseudoscience". See NPOV Bias in Attribution. GregA
That's a good addition to my correction, thanks. "find" should say "state", and it was a misquote anyway. GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I added that NLP is applied to therapy, and clarified that NLP is applied to fields. A month ago everyone was saying therapy was the prime application, then self-development became the prime one... but both are valid and representative applications of NLP. GregA
Self help seems more focussed on group trainings and individuals - though most of the NLP processes are taught as one person (trained in NLP processes) working with another person - ala counselling and coaching. How do you suggest representing this most common 2-person interaction? GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
NLP is often training in the modeled patterns of excellence, which are bound to also be able to be used to self-help. It's also used in therapy. We need to clarify the application vs what it is.
I also rephrased the opening paragraph as the prior one was misleading.
(oh, the "NLP includes 3 ideas...." I find confusing - I removed Engram references but I agree they are still confusing so I'll leave them.) GregA
Agreed it's not a "how to do NLP manual". However, if you won't use an NLP term as intended but only put it in the pseudoscience "babble" section then you're incredibly biased. Anyway - you agree we should explain submodalities.
Currently it says "how people store and retrieve past memories is based on transformational grammar". I've not heard anything like that, though I agree that a word has a meaning for people. In fact when accessing memories in NLP you often use a trans-derivational search which uses the representation systems to access a memory, another method is simply asking someone to remember something, or using a timeline. What would you change this line to (you've seen my suggestion). It also confuses what came first etc.. The modeling came first and was related to the grammar, all facts are still represented. The following paragraph says that NLP people changed their mind about 'theory' when transformational grammar was abandoned... that's deliberately misleading. GregA
Hehe. Nice choices you gave me there Maulden. Think outside the square eh?. If we had to be perfect to post here, there wouldn't be anyone posting! Anyway, I don't really care who made a mistake, it's what's written that matters. Do you act differently depending on who says something? Also we've tried a few times to represent the broad scope of NLP training so it's quite likely that we'll have different takes and it's valuable to reflect that. GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
NLP also uses the concept of hemispheric differences in order to promote NLP. This must be someone mindreading "NLP" - saying they teach hemispheric stuff because they want to promote NLP???? Got any sources? GregA
Actually, when you look throughout the books they usually teach eye-accessing cues and differences in left and right eye cues - but that's not the same thing as tying it to brain hemispheres (though some books do that) GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Take a look at all the intellectual antecedents comaze was adding. Quite detailed. It seemed simpler to refer to cog sci antecedents as they're the same (very different for what they DO with the antecedents, but the same history). GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Wanting to sell a product, is unrelated to the quality of the product. Perls & Satir were original models, are you disputing that? Anyway, back to my sentence, which was there are shared intellectual antecedents with the cognitive sciences.... Comment on that? GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
It says that you can replace beliefs with good ones, or replace beliefs with bad ones. Why not say "it can replace beliefs"? I'm not too worried as long as it's clear. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
All I've done is corrected some grammar and explained some slightly clearer. No idea if there's an objection to that. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I separated out the common parts of NLP modeling and Analytic modeling, and made the differences clear. Problem?
This had some significant changes simply because so much is irrelevant to NLP. This is not a history of Perls article.
Nor is it a rehash of the scientific testing or spiritual connections - I left a note on these in my change and referred to the appropriate section GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
This section I went back over past changes that have been made and reverted without much comment, and reposted what I thought was fair and hope to have some debate on it. I'll say why I thought it was fair: GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Heap's quote characterising NLP with gullibilism is pretty repetitive, and didn't tie down anything new. Removed. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
The British Psych society says nothing negative about NLP so Parker is highly dubious. Platt's comment... well, that line is his opinion not what he called 'review'. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I removed the "as yet no scientific evidence" as it clearly belongs in the science section, and it's repeated ad nauseum.
It's a broken record... it doesn't belong in the "extraordinary claims" section. As to its validity lets talk about that in FT2s section... it's not a clear cut subject. GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
The claims to breast enhancement are not criticisms against NLP, rather against people making such claims and citing NLP processes. Still worth noting in the article of course. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
This is the area where ecology is really important. Ecology is how NLP processes are used in a way beneficial to the subject, and as such need to be discussed in relation to ethics. Instead it's been removed, so I readded it (and it was removed).
You've got more comments on "NLP is unsupported"... refer to the other section. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Firstly I changed the heading to remove the bias. Clarified the application of NLP in those areas. I'm not sure who wrote this originally but it is far more neutral that what's there. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
You'd better read that one. It's incredibly biased at present. "The presuppositions of NLP create a background for reduced resistance"... really... GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
You're biased by calling me and others "sellers", and you obviously never read the (temp) page if you think we haven't been forced to compromise alot. Yes explaining is the only way to solve this so please respond to my comments. If (when reverting) you can leave in what you DON'T object to rather than reverting everything it'd make it easier - in good faith I've made these sections above to get your feedback though some are probably unnecessary(??). The biggest problem with this article is that if anyone says anything, it's fair game to go in the article... no wonder it's getting so huge. This in contrast to working out what are minor POVs and getting to the core of what NLP is (which this article fails to do). GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh.. BTW, I just noticed you ONLY commented on the "overview" section. I'm wondering whether you considered the other sections at all.?? And you say "less babble"... can you tell me ANY babble that was added (besides ECOLOGY). yes there is the submodality stuff, which you said needs to be mentioned - how do you personally decide if it needs to be mentioned or is babble? GregA 03:46, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello again. I myself am from mainland Europe and I have noticed that the NLP sellers like to follow the Anglo American view of NLP too much. In Europe and Asia, NLP does not get the same kind of views. It is seen very much as a pseudoscince cult in France, in Germany they are very against such weak methods, and other places also simply call it self help sales speak. This is especially after the 90s when businesses all over were changed and they were told to get used to it using such NLP seminar kind of change management methods. In business it is just seen as hoodwinking. I think this needs to be taken into account much more. The article needs a world view. HansAntel 02:31, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes I agree. The international view is far more reasonable AMaulden 05:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Sure Hans. I'll start putting in the refs you sent us. Best regards HeadleyDown 08:59, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
A counter example is that requirements engineering using NLP meta model is quite popular in Germany, Australia and Ireland, see example. -- Comaze 13:52, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Comaze. Well this is going to be interesting. I have actually published journal papers on the psychological aspects of requirements elicitation for information systems development. Claiming that NLP is in widespread use among information systems developers would be like stating psychotherapists primarily refer to physiognomy in order to determine the level of delusion in a client. HeadleyDown 14:26, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
You know, FT2. You are doing pretty badly on the research front. I had a good look at the Bolstad reference. Its pretty funny. Meet the chap in person
[46]. Not dodgy car salesmanlike at all!:)
Richard Bolstad is not a professor or practicing psychotherapist. He is an NLPer with a clear vested interest in promotion. His scientific sounding (but actually pseudoscientific) article is not published in a peer reviewed independent journal. He is simply writing psychobabble in order to promote his business.
He talks about spiritual transcendence, the natural languages of the brain, modalities (the same old NLP obscurantism), the pseudoscience of representational systems, and split brain myths as if they are absolute truths. He quotes all the supporting evidence (often out of context research from writers who have never even heard of NLP and if they did, they would probably just laugh it off).
He states that emotion affects the perception, but does not say practically to what extent. He talks about checking reality, but does not refer to proper empirical checks. He talks about mirror neurons to support rapport and mirroring, but he does not say exactly how unsupported mirror neurons are. They may exist, but they certainly do not support mirroring, they only might explain the chamelion EFFECT (not cause).
The references he uses are highly selective, often completely out of date (lots of it is debunked) and of course he treats Bandler and Grinder as supreme beings and gives them tons of airing.
Anyway, keep up the hard work; digging yourself into pseudoscience and cultish obscurity. HeadleyDown 10:23, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
You know, FT2, you are the biggest misquoter on this article. You actually wrote: "Prof. Lakoff also states "Even if by today's cognitive science research standards some of the original NLP research must be called inadequate, we now can classify NLP research projects as fitting in the field of cognitive science." Lakoff never wrote such a thing. Lakoff is not an NLP fanatic. The more you do this kind of thing, the more people will see you as a fanatic.
HeadleyDown
10:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I looked FT2, and there are no references to NLP in Lakoff's book that you cite and of course nothing about cognitive science and NLP. HeadleyDown 11:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Look FT2, I noticed that you also misattributed the other lines to lakoff when in fact the NLP biased reviewer of his book wrote them. HeadleyDown 11:45, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh look, FT2. You continue to represent Sharpley by cutting off his conclusion. Remember that people are actually reading what you write. When you dump vast amounts of bias onto wikipedia, people are going to notice:) HeadleyDown 10:38, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I noticed your points above are kind of accusations. I think you are trying to mislead people.
Perhaps I should introduce. I am a therapist, and I came accross this site a while back. I did attend an NLP course a couple of years ago, and found it quite laughable considering all the other training I have received on counseling skills. Anyway, I read through the article and some things that had been nagging at the back of my mind have been well verified. My colleagues tend to call NLP a pseudoscience, and really its more of a motivational guru method. The skills they taught us were miserably simplistic. For example the rapport skills were pseudoscientifically explained (to the point where people laughed and choked on their coffee etc) and ineffective to the point of fostering mistrust. In short, NLP is ineffective and misleading.
Well, to solve that nagging feeling I had a good go through the library, made the relevant photocopies, and indeed, the article is extremely well researched. There are a few things missing, and Hans above seems to have pointed that out already. There are some useful French and German research papers that concur with the Sharpley conclusion (and yes, Sharpley says NLP fails, and is a cult and a fad).
Clearly, NLP is far more of a self help/stage hypnosis concern. It is indeed a fringe therapy concern also, and although I am sure NLP companies love to claim that they teach real therapists, most of those therapists would never boast of being an NLPer. Like myself, the certificate is consigned to the bin.
There are some NLP therapists (who love to claim they are real therapists) and all they do is talk nonsense about pragmatics as if pragmatics do not have a theory.
Certainly psychotherapists are quite alarmed at the amount of bogus therapists there are who charge lots of money for tapping away at your meridians, or waving their fingers in front of your eyes, or indeed doing NLP "changework" as if it is some kind of deep and meaningful method. Its not! It is entirely shallow and can quite reasonably be labeled fraudulent.
In short, the scientific research presented on this article is conclusively negative, and that is exactly factual, truthful and neutrally stated. The only reason for stating otherwise is to do what all NLP people like to do; to twist words and reframe things to make them sound like they have neuroscience, psychology, and the whole of the psychotherapy community supporting them. The more recent literature shows that the medical, psychology, and therapy community is very troubled by the ridiculous claims of NLP charlatans and pseudoscientists. From a global perspective, NLP is just stage hypnosis with some business marketing thrown in. It certainly is not psychology.
Anyway, I appreciate what the nonNLPers have none with the research here, and if I find some aspect of it to help clarify NLP in its rightful place as a messy and misleading pseudoscience, then I certainly will. Sincerely AMaulden 04:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, you do get some very stupid psych bodies who allow NLPers to do therapy. Usually they are without degrees, and have learned NLP from a biz background in motivational hype. They go in completely unprepared for counseling or psychotherapy and screw people out of money and out of their mind. The course I attended was the best that you could buy, and followed Dilts and Bandler et al to the letter. Conclusion: NLP is just worthless pseudoscience. AMaulden 05:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FT2, allow me to vent my view. NLP is most definitely just a lot of hot air. This has to be the most solidly referenced article I have ever seen on NLP. Most of what you read in the shops and adverts is about how NLP is all about science and geniuses and how to be superexcellent and they give nothing to back up their hype. They've been doing the same crap for decades and never deliver any reality on those wild whoppers they keep coming up with. Its so refreshing to read the views of proper psychologists here. Of course it is just about selling books and tickets. Looks to me like YOU have been sussed. Totally. JaseC 07:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
You know, FT2. Just because you post huge amounts of biased extra articles on wikipedia to try to negate the crushing reality effect of the main aricle, does not mean you can go bossing people around. I suggest you have a little more respect. I would allow you to go on insulting them, but I don't want this article discussion to seem too unwelcoming.
HeadleyDown
10:54, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi. Actually, Greg, the research I have read is from highly regarded experts who are also practitioners (of psychotherapy or hypnotherapy or both). I see no reason to question their credibility, especially as they are clearly extremely good researchers (usually some kind of professor). Not only do they have a moral conscience to point out misconceptions, but they do it extremely convincingly. And no, its not just about PRS. The researchers also talk of various signs of pseudoscientific activity such as using holism to cover up failures, to hype using stories rather than directing attention to close examination of assumptions or testing their own methods scientifically. The reviewers tend to agree (including Heap) that the theory is wrong (and pseudo), the results are ineffective, and the hype continues with no real effort to advance the field. I have reported what they say as neutrally as I can, but sometimes the only thing you can do is state it exactly as they say (often harshly). Regards
HeadleyDown
13:12, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I just removed a sentence that says NLP is used for "occult" practices. This sentence is in the part of the intro that is reporting the pro-NLP point of view. I find it highly unlikely that an advocate for anything would call their practices "occult". The "applications" for NLP that can be listed in the pro-NLP part of the intro must be from the main NLP advocates, and it must be sourced. This sentence reads more like it is coming from an anti-NLP critic and is being used to discredit NLP by saying "Look, see? They use NLP for occult ceremonies" or whatever. If that's the case, you must report this in the anti-NLP part of the intro, you must write it in the form of who said it, and you need to provide a URL, so someone else can verify you didn't stretch the truth in order to defame NLP people. Reporting from the source is required for NPOV policy. Providing a URL helps protect wikipedia against defamation lawsuits. And if you do not have a source for the term "occult", it is also violating "No Original Research" policy. FuelWagon 16:28, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FuelWagon. As best I can determine from computer translation of the Dutch... Jan Damen says he got an article from a friend which referred to the "Cult Pocket Dictionary" by Rob Matzken (director of both "the Bible and Education Association" and "True Christians"). Besides terms such as Reiki, Gnomes, Yoga, Chakras and Halloween, it listed NLP. So he decided to see why Matzken put NLP in that list. He says the book quotes the bible alot and takes the words literally (which he says is debatable). He lists their definition of cult (I think he says "cults claim to expose secrets but are secret themselves" or similar, and that all the cults believe in supernatural, magic, astrology, and spiritualism etc, and such (assumed) strengths are applied to explain and/or master natural events). He then says the booklet says that "NLP uses several occult techniques under pseudo-scientific names such as regression technique (trance work in the past and even previous lives). It also says NLP does Out-of-Body experiences and puts people in a "positive-energy frenzy" - (which he has never experienced in all his NLP trainings and experience). Matzken and his spiritual brothers assume the following basic simple rules - If it is not in the bible or does not respect their explanation of the bible it is wrong; Life is suffering and if you want to change that it is wrong. Jan Damen says he hasn't experience what NLP is accused of, nor does he think their bible interpretation is the more general interpretation of the bible.
The article is really just referring to another intense Christian group and their beliefs. I don't know why Headley thought this was worth any more than any of the other cult/christian links like the watchman stuff.
Personally I was surprised that Yoga was in that list (but that's just me!). Certainly NLP doesn't teach out-of-body stuff, but I concede that some "timeline" guys talk about past lives (though when I've heard or read that, it always also says "It doesn't matter what's true, just what you believe in this context which we're going to explore"). I assume the positive frenzy is like some of those LGATs Headley keeps saying are NLP - I've never experienced them in an NLP context though what I've seen was using some very effective language, anchoring, and belief change patterns (whether conscious or unconscious), patterns that I recognised because I've been NLP trained to recognise them. Hope the above helps GregA 22:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I also just removed a sentence that said "NLP has also been identified by the British Psychological Society as quintessential charlatanry (Parker 1999).". This was tagged by someone as being dubious. If this statement is untrue, it exposes wikipedia to a defamation lawsuit. Given how severe this sentence is, and given the penalties that could occur if it is actually wrong, it needs to be removed until it can be verified to be true. Before reinserting this claim, please provide a URL so that others can verify the accuracy of the sentence. Once again, a name in parenthesis does not cut it for wikipedia's requirements of verifiability. Please familiarize yourselves with wikipedia policy on NPOV, NOR, and Verifiability. FuelWagon 16:32, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Sanghera is stating a common set of criticisms. It is entirely representative. It does come from a reliable source (The Financial Times) and gives a great account of someone's view of the subject. JPLogan 02:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Remember what happened during the late 80s and early 90s. Tony Robbins and a whole lot of therapists dumping NLP because it was debunked! Heap is demostrating his conclusive view. JPLogan 02:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
This is correct. I have the photocopy of that page. Singer (RIP) was a world authority on cults and manipulation and like a lot of psychologists was repelled by how people tried to get business employees to be really cheerful about having their livelihoods threatened during the "downsizingfest" of the 90s. JPLogan 02:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello VoiceOfAll. Your changes are appreciated. Please do not be conned into pasting NLP promoter's cuttings into the article. For the most part they have the conclusive statements missing from the paragraph. Your last edits in the science section had those problems. Its completely forgivable considering the literature is actually very large and difficult to get through. The conclusions that neutral editors post into the article have been taken from multiple sources and they concur with each other. The latest literature states that NLP is wrong, unsupported, ineffective etc and cites Druckman, Heap, VonBergen, and Sharpley 97, amongst others. They all use the conclusions that NLP is scientifically unsupported. None of them say there are limitations, because Sharpley has already established that there are no limitations. I have been trying to keep to that very neutral statement (scientifically unsupported), but as you may have noticed, any cutting from the middle of paragraphs by the promoters will tend to lead to me having to paste the actual harsh conclusive statements of scientists. Regards HeadleyDown 04:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi VoiceOFAll, perhaps I should explain further. Heap and Druckman did not take Sharpley's 1987 paper into account when considering Einspruchs criticism of the review. Recent reviews do take Sharpley 87 into account. They state that NLP is pseudoscience, fraudulent, grossly misleading etc. They also say that Einspruch and Formann are putting the burden of proof on the testers, rather than the claimers. That is a pseudoscientific argument. The burden of proof should always be on the people claiming to give 10 minute phobia cures etc. Of course, NLP promoters never provided reliable proof (just stories pseudoscientific explanations and more hype - according to Lilienfeld, Singer, Eisner etc). Regards HeadleyDown 04:16, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
If you could, you would probably mark science as dubious. JPLogan 02:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I've posted to HeadleyDown's talk page directly regarding his recent large reversion to the NLP article. FuelWagon 16:57, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Its pretty simple, FuelWagon. If you have lots of people advocating a large collection of points, and someone makes huge changes to the article, you can pretty much expect reversion. Especially as you make changes that are completely unreasonable and quite censorious.
HeadleyDown
17:03, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. I have seen your large collection of information. I notice that a great deal of it is completely wrongly marked, strategically arranged, and similar to your efforts on this article, some of the conclusively negative statements are censored. I see your large set of biased remarks as a massive piece of evidence that you are probably even more biased than Tony Robbins. It is very clear that you simply want to promote NLP.
JPLogan
02:39, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Note also that if you wish to write your neutral assessment of FT2's collection of notes, you will probably have it removed from that page by FT2, even though FT2 has pasted his own pro-NLP POV all over the page. HeadleyDown 03:23, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 3 November 2005 and 13 November 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/Archive06. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. FuelWagon 05:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
So, here is another blatant example of POV pushing against NLP. The article contains a section that says "Behind every behavior is a positive intention". I added an explanation that this is sometimes called reframing. [1]. This gets blanked reverted by DaveRight [2] simply saying "You are erroneous" and reverting multiple edits.
Case in point, DaveRight is in fact erroneous. According to Dilts, the "Behind every behavior is a positive intention" concept is called "reframing". You can verify this by going to an article written by Dilts titled "The NLP Pattern of the Month: Reframing" subtitle The Principle of Positive Intention [3].
THere is no excuse for this blanket reversion approach by DaveRight. There is no justification for deleting this parenthetical that is it sometimes called "reframing", given that a notable NLP source specifically associates the "positive intention" thing with the term "reframing". And yet, the anti-NLP editors are deleting accurate reporting of a pro-NLP source. FuelWagon 04:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe your reframing addition was incorrect Fuelwagon. But I changed it to fit in for the sake of compromise. Your other edits were definitely incorrect.. Bookmain 04:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Fine FT2. But I did change the line to be more correct.. Bookmain 06:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
In view of the fact that
I am inclined to take the matter of these two editors, and possibly others, to the Arbitration Committee. If so, it will not be on the broad "he said/she said", or "Group A/Group B" basis that the request for Mediation was based upon. It will be directly undertaken myself, and specifically for aggressive POV warring, personal attacks, and persistent irreconcilable non-compliance with wikipedia policies by HeadleyDown, JPLogan and possibly others (to be decided).
Please vote below if you would be supportive, against, or have other opinions on this matter at this time. Note that ArbCom does not in fact require a consensus to accept a matter, so this is more a "straw poll" of feeling. (Sock puppets and suspected sock puppets, including unknown anon IPs, may be ignored) But I would want to think very carefully about such a step if mediation may yet succeed, or if I am in fact alone in thinking this is appropriate.
Hello FT2. Considering your recent additions of your own views to the article, I suggest that you need to go back to the reality check stage. We are in the constructive process of mediation, and if you hadn't noticed, the mediator is working well. He has even been moving or deleting criticisms from sections that your promoter team demanded to have supplied by neutral editors but then decided not to like. VoiceOfAll is working well for now. In future arbitration is always an option. I think it would be silly to pass up such a tolerant mediator as the present one. Regards AliceDeGrey 10:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
No support. Just patience. HeadleyDown 12:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I think you are treating VoiceOfAll's expert efforts unfairly. He has stepped in to remove direct insults, and has made very clear instructions of what you should and should not do (eg accusations section). It still seems to me that further exploration towards actual proceedings is in order. As you said, personal attacks etc. These do indeed need to be resolved. I think I am coming closer to an answer that is more related to how we resolve differences.
For example. One way to go, is to continue fulfilling the issues requirements that VoiceOfAll has provisionally set out. I can see we are getting closer to doing that. Certainly I have plenty of information that can help out there.
I have tried to point out people's clear biases and they tend to be based on vested and reputational interests (NLP teachers). But I realise there will always be fanatics who will come here to deface the facts.
I wish somehow to resolve that to some extent also. I'm wondering whether giving the article a more educational flavour may help (eg, pointing out the difference between science and pseudoscience etc). Whatever way is fine.
I am a patient person and also agree that arbitration is a long way off. You have been here only a short while and you are calling for arbitration already. I think most people would feel that is rash. Also, I feel people should be a lot more patient considering the compromises already made by the mediator and non promoters. Certainly, the mediator is a force of good for wikipedia and has proven to handle things well. So I consider him a friend to all wikipedians. A good force to work with. 203.186.238.214 12:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC) HeadleyDown 12:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Wow, it's so very kind of you to consider what we will do 'very nicely' with. I've never known you to be so concerned before. Thanks Lee1 11:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I can see that you are not using the libraries to your advantage. Stop surfing and start researching. HeadleyDown 14:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I was asked (via private e-mail) to take a look at this.
Please review Wikipedia:Avoid personal remarks and Wikipedia:POV. Uncle Ed 19:43, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
"X states that NLP is pseudoscience" is what I have been saying is the NPOV way to have criticism, so we should all agree here by now. And yes, the sarcasm here is over the top.
Also, lets not talk about arbitration right now, as that is by no means effective nor necessary. Voice of All T| @| Esperanza 20:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Uncle Ed and VoiceOfAll. Your wish is my command. Or something like that:) Thanks for the input. I will do my best to remove my temper. And clearer attribution has been requested, and so it will be followed. Best regards
HeadleyDown
01:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2 15:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I am simply being cooperative. If you wish to move antagonistically against mediation and compromise, then that is your choice. I feel you will find yourself in the minority. If you notice the numerous compromises made towards the promoters then you would not make such a decision. Believe me. You are welcome here, but your extreme moves in the light of the summer of extreme moves is simply a repeat of what went on before and failed. I do not wish to distract you from your own decisions, but I have been here for quite a while, and arbitration seems to be quite a few horizons away. I personally am open to many options. I and others here have made many compromises and will probably be open to others who are willing to shed real light on this subject. Otherwise, your efforts are directed to whichever cliff you wish to climb. Regards
HeadleyDown
15:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. The proposal to merge a speculative and promotional NLP site with wikipedia is completely unacceptable. The information is conflicting, mixed up, unverifiable, unfairly presented, unfactual and so on. It is not up to wikipedia to rescue failing websites and wikispam is also completely unacceptable. Lets just get on with resolving those 2 remaining issues. HeadleyDown 06:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
As mentioned in many places above it seems to me that science may be the solution to a lot of problems here. For example, I noticed that the engram is actually an incredibly persistent issue in psychology and neurology, and that is probably why it is used by NLP theorists. I had a look at the engram page, and it seems to be totally wrong. Not only is it vague, but it is also wrongly attributed to dianetics.
As the engram really is a strong ongoing research stream in neuroscience and psychology amongst other sciences, I suggest that the NLP promoters start accepting it as a concept. We have tried to represent it scientifically here, but promoters/practitioners keep trying to remove that explanation.
One way to do this would be to represent the engram properly as a scientific subject on the engram page. The engram is the memory trace that represents learning and has a very good science history. It is generally construed on the holistic level, just like NLP uses it, and its diagramatic representations match those of the NLP diagrams. It is different from the way dianetics uses the engram concept. There are papers on critiquing the dianetics engram as it is very flawed scientifically. Have a go at the engram page and that will probably help your case enormously. Regards JPLogan 02:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Now there's a good compromise. I can clarify on the article also! DaveRight 03:15, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes I also think this is a good idea. It will clarify things a lot.
HeadleyDown
11:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hallo. The NLP trainers I know in Europe and Russia use the term engrams in different ways to each other. But I think the suggestion is good. Certainly it should be stated that Hubbard's engrams are different from science and NLP's engrams. That is what encyclopedias are good for. The engram page said dianetics uses engrams (just after a scientific description) last time I looked. Just find a book that says the dianetics engram koncept is wrong, and Bob is your uncle:) From my understanding, Hubbard engrams are about pain. Science does not give them such a negative view, they are just representations of learning in the neurons. Also Hubbard talks about demons as part of them:) Read Dianetic, the science and technik of achievement. It is very funny:) Hubbard went from science fiction to fiction science:) But engrams were taught as a holist theoretical koncept in my undergraduate psychology. There is nothing wrong with it and the research is still following it even for finding where the engram is in the parts of the brain. When I read Bandler and amigos I do not see demon engrams, but I do see mental pathways and circuits of scientific proposed engrams. HansAntel 03:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the input Hans. We certainly need some world views and more scientific views here. Regards.. JPLogan 09:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I removed all of this text from the document. It is such a minority view that it is not relevant to the article. --start text removed--- The term "neuro-linguistic programming" includes three ideas:
The methods of NLP involve programming and reprogramming habits and mental associations, which some NLP practioners consider to be individual engrams (Sinclair, 1992; [32] Overdurf & Silverthorn, 1995; Drenth, 2003). Engrams are a scientific term for a theoretical neurological mechanism considered by some scientists to be the means by which memory traces are stored in the brain. (Note: Dianetics uses the term but in a different way). Engrams, give a patterned response which has been stabilised at the level of unconscious competence and involve beneficial automatic activities as well as pernicious ones like addictive behaviour (Sinclair, 1992)(Derks & Goldblatt, 1985). The engram has been used to explain the NLP anchoring process that underlies patterns such as the "swish" process. As such it is a theoretical concept that people used to understand NLP (Drenth, 2003)(Levelt 1995). For instance, Sinclair (1992) theorises that NLP processes are explained through the neurological concepts of programming and reprogramming engrams [33] of the mind/body connection in order to effect change, to develop unconscious competence, and to treat traumas (Andreas & Faulkner, 1994). Other explanations of anchoring include: a form of Pavlovian conditioning, or "consciously creating the placebo effect" (Rex & Carolyn Sikes). O'Connor and McDermot (1996) state that NLP works through reframing and belief change methods. --end text. -- Comaze 06:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, much as you would love to reduce the scope of views to that of Grinder, that will simply not happen. Taking into account the international views of theory into NLP, engrams are central. I know it is quite a vague concept, but it explains the neuro part of NLP perfectly, and it coincides exactly with NLP's association of engrams and the "unconscious". Someone mentioned (I think Hans) that the Anglo American view was too narrow. I have collected a lot more views on NLP from Europe, and those views include more claims to science. OK they are pseudo, but those are the broad views. They will be represented and the engram concept is clarifying (explains neuro). AliceDeGrey 06:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
One can set up a straw man as follows:
Do you recognise a pattern here? -- Comaze 11:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. NLP is not an opponent. NLP in this case is an article. Engram is not a misrepresentation. If anything it is a compromise in favour of NLP. It is after all, a scientific notion, and there is a difference between Hubbard's negative engrams, and NLP's engrams. The most important thing here, though, is engram is not invented. It is simply there to explain what NLP means by neuro in neurolinguistic (senses to nerves to engrams (the general mental pathways in the brain).
Actually, engram is really far more scientifically accurate than some of the other similar ideas stolen from sciences and placed out of context. For example, Dilts talks about the Hebb rule, and then mentions neural nets. Hebb never mentioned neural nets in the context of the brain. He always referred to engrams. Actually, if you talk to neuroscientists, they will choke if you talk about neural nets and the brain. Specifically, neural nets are artificial computer simulations and calculation setups. NeurONAL nets are small and very specific pathways in the brain. What NLP is describing is none of those, but engrams, and some of the proponents of NLP (especially the European ones) are smart enough to know the difference. The engram is a nerve pathway that represents learning.
I noticed that FT2 had made some changes to the engram page to represent things more specifically. I also made contributions there, and it is far more clear now. I still find it strange that you would want to remove something that is accurately descriptive and distinguishes NLP from dianetics. HeadleyDown 11:56, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. Turing machines are completely incompatible with human potential and representation of learning, and resources. Engrams handle those aspects very well. You seem to be obsessed with a very narrow view.
HeadleyDown
17:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Much of the pure scientific aspects of the discussion here are things which I am not well versed in, however, the "success seminar" angle is something I am familiar with, though not the Tony Robbins "I can cure you" kind. Suffice it to say, the usable application to be found here is in helping people steer their minds to a more effective premise in critical areas.
For example, there is a "success saying" which goes like this: "Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position".
I have found from experience that if you can get someone with low self-esteem and/or high self-doubt to truly believe that, they will then start regularly thinking that things can and will get better for them.
Recent case in point: A close friend of my family is in her 40's, overwieght, smokes, is out of work and 3 months past due on her mortgage. As a condition of helping her with enough $$ to get current on the mortgage (between me and her father, we bridged the gap), she was oblidged to come see me face to face for an hour, to get the check. At this meeting, I first made sure of the tally of the required $$, then I reminded her that I'd known her for 8 years and never once butted into her pesonal life. "Thats' true", she confirmed. So then, here is what I explained to her: I said "look, you are about to lose your house and you are spending over $150 a month on cigarettes, what the hell are you doing?" There was no argument on this point and then I explained an NLP "success saying". I said "look Susie (pen name for this), I am giving you this $$ because we care about you, but let me tell you something, the secret I am about to tell you is worth over 100 times more and here it is: Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position".
"It's that simple, all you have to do is stop telling yourself you can't and start telling yourself you can. After a certain point, you really will understand that your mind has stretched and you will know that it's not going back to where it was. You will be a different, better person than you are now".
I also gave here an easy translation Bible and set her to reading Proverbs, explaining that she needed some new grist for the mill (of her mind), such as "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid".
Anyway, the long and the short of it was this all happened about 8 weeks ago. Since then, she has quit smoking, got a job and started a diet/excercize program. When she called me 2 weeks ago to give an update, it was clear that she was convinced that her mind both can stretch and was in the process of stretching. She was really much happier, etc.
Now, will she stay that way? I say yes, if she actually does believe that her mind can stretch and if she works at stretching it. So to wrap this up, this NLP stuff, so far as I can see, really only works when you have a subject who is ready, willing and able to focus their mind effectively. The results come not as a consequence of he suggestion (the "programming"), but rather, as a consenquence of the subject actually focusing intensly on the target - it's the power of sustained postive expectations, nothing more. Those who claim to have developed a structured system of tapping into how people think and steering it via NLP are just putting a fancy name on helping people believe "Yes!, I can". A good football coach already does this; think "the Tuna", Bill Parcells.
In my view, helping people focus and moving them forward in life is the only worthwile application for this technology and frankly, the rest of it (I feel) is a bunch of crap dreamed up by people who are interested in considering themselves superior "Hah! see how I led that person around by the nose"...
Also, it really only works if the suggestion being made is an actual macro-truth - as in always true for everyone. In my mind, I always have available this: "Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position" as an absolute certainty and am always ready to share anecdotal proof that it's true with anyone who asks or othrwise displays interest. Personally, I am fully convinced that the reason why this particular suggestion works (if genuinely apprehended by the subject) is because it's true about all people, all the time.
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 08:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Welcome Rex. Thanks for your input. Yes, you have some clear perceptions about the subject. NLP is generally promoted as a science or scientifically sounding for the sake of sales with no serious effort to test and verify. Regards
HeadleyDown
11:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I think Rex is being more insightful than you realise, FT2. Notice the healthy lack of doctrine in his words. Looks like an open mind. You see the problem with the "subjective reality" part is that NLP proposes that they know the structure of it.
The reality is, they have no clue about the structure. Or more accurately, they have chosen clues which are not accurate. Well, I don't claim to have the answers on that one, but if I did claim it, I may make some money. It is a wild claim in itself. It presupposes that you can learn to do what Einstein did without the immense energy and talent he threw into all his years of obsessive explorations and so on.
Plus the theorizing that goes on within NLP is wild and unconnected. Going from Chomsky's theoretical and untested grammar to a method that is supposed to make you a wizard is a huge leap indeed. And one that makes practitioners fall flat every time from the look of things.
So far promoters don't seem to have persuaded anybody about the science/technology/amazing magic of NLP apart from themselves. That seems to verify the research done on NLP. I do not wish to antagonize here though. Merely to act as a mirror. Science and common sense are the best way to go meta. Regards HeadleyDown 12:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, I can't speak for Rex, but I think you have gone a few planets off target FT2. You speak of good books, and you have NLP books in mind. When I think of good books I think of how to retain and maintain normality in a crazy world. Psychotherapy is designed to do such a thing. It doesn't always succeed but it does a lot better than NLP. I am not talking about Freudian analysis, but about the empirically measured and objectively assessed methods that really do help according to reality (in contrast with speculative hype). Those methods of science that I speak of are self correcting, and even so common sense that they seem obvious. But in that way they help to keep people on the straight and narrow more or less. Whereas NLP promises genius, amazing abilities, and getting over your problems in a blink of an eye. It is purely a mass marketed psychobabble market. The world view is that it is just psychocrap. You can dress any salesman in a suit and sell the stuff with no satisfaction. But there are some things that are verifiable. They are tested and found to be valid. Perceptions of normal people are elicited, and their perceptions are generally ...Yes that seems about right. Whereas NLP is psychobabble from start to finish with nothing more than a bunch of lame promises and insecurity building presuppositions that is guaranteed to set up and complete insecure people's disappointment. Any relatively healthy person will just shrug off NLP like a 24 hr virus. At least, that is the Eurasian perspective according to my studies :) Spend you Euros and have a glass of wine:) Regards HeadleyDown 14:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to keep cleaning up the references and add links and notes where appropriate. I want to get he article to the stage where anyone can come in and easily check the sources. I'm going to stay out of any content disputes for a while until it cools down :) -- Comaze 14:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello Comaze. If cleaning means removing core references that you alone deem disposable, then forget it. If I see you altering the references, I will simply revert, and I will expect any neutral editor to do the same when considering your past and recent history. HeadleyDown 14:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. Further to your requests to discuss. I understand your urge to promote using obscurantisms on the opening of the article, but as discussed 3 weeks ago during mediation, hype and confusion is not appropriate for an encyclpopedia. A clear and instructive opening is requred that tells the reader straight away about their own perceptions (ie, not a programming language, but a way to program the mind). Not a study (sitting in libraries reading books or doing degrees, or publishing peer reviewed papers), but a self help technique. The study of subjective experience has already been criticised by scientists as hype and exageration. Presently the subject is classified as pseudoscientific by more scientists and scientific bodies than you realise. It is fine to explain straight away what NLP is in reality according to the sum of human knowledge on NLP. It is unacceptable to promote the subject using terms that are deliberately obscure and arguable. NLP is a method for programming the mind. Many NLP promoters use that explanation and it is helpful. That has been mediated already. Please learn to cooperate. I understand you have not been around here long. I will remain tolerant to your uncooperative actions. Regards HeadleyDown 17:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello TheCroaker. I simply represent the views of the scientists that I have read about. If those views see Anthony Robbins as one of the voices of NLP, then that is how they will be represented. Remember, NLP does not only study excellence. NLP also studies some very fringe behaviours including modelling those of the occult and also some other dubious and reprehensible behaviours. Those will also be represented HeadleyDown 16:06, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Now lets have some respect and cooperation with VoiceOfAll. In the interest of cooperation, lets work through the issues that have not been tackled and stop going over issues that have already been deemed acceptable by the mediator and the majority. Best regards HeadleyDown 17:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry FT2. You have not covered the issue that your addition is unclear and gives readers a hard time with the opening. Now instead of insisting on such uncooperative sidetracking, you could get on with the issues presented below. HeadleyDown 20:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. The lines you proposed for the opening were unclear and did not satisfy the requirements of the mediated version, plus the study of structure etc really is a promotional obscurantism. I merely wish to state we have some things to sort out here. Please focus on completing these following tasks. Regards
HeadleyDown
01:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello. This is funny. I was taught that I should not use the "study of structure of..." to explain to businesslike people what I was doing. My trainer said that if you tell them that, they just go "Huh?". HansAntel 03:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I've been looking in on this article for a while and I think your presence here is appreciated by all neutral editors, VoiceOfAll. There are some editors here who would like to see the back of you though, and its clearly because they do not like to compromise. People calling for arbitration at such an early stage are seriously biased and seem to be destined for arbitration to tell them clearly that they are biased. I believe they should start questioning their own POV. Considering the amount of changes they insist upon making after compromises have already been made towards them, I suggest the NLP/arbitration promoters use their imaginations to consider how biased and fanatical they seem to relatively NLP savvy outsiders such as myself. JC
Hello FT2. I notice you have continued to add the obscurantist/promotional section to the opening yet again. In doing so, you are turning compromise into uncompromise. Careful and considered compromise was made on that section through mediation. Turning compromise into uncompromise is completely against mediation. Try to work on resolving the outstanding issues.
HeadleyDown
06:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
We seem to have two different version, I merged them as best I could. If anything else should be added, then lets talk. Voice of All T| @| Esperanza 06:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Nicely done VoiceOfAll. Hopefully now we can just get on with resolution. Regards HeadleyDown 06:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2 and VoiceOfAll. I will do my best to clarify.
Programming: NLP is a kind of programming. That is clear by the title. People want to know what kind of programming it is. It is a way to program the mind. There are many NLP sources that state this as a matter of fact and it is indeed an accurate description. NLP also uses the computer metaphor throughout. eg; Hypnotherapy. A kind of therapy using hypnosis. Psychotherapy. A kind of therapy using psychology. HeadleyDown 07:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Programming is neutral enough. Looks to be very clear and the opening works fine that way. HeadleyDown 07:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Any reference to results of NLP in testing should be very concisely summarised. There are a great many other statements that are far more relevant to Sharpley's kind words about the use of many pseudosciences in psychotherapy. Another paper concluding that NLP was ineffective actually stated that dianetics is also ineffective, but is still used in fringe practices. Regards HeadleyDown 07:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
No FT2, the paragraph is a neutral scientific statement of fact. I do have a solution though. It does not concern the opening, but I do have a source that states that many pseudosciences are promoted in psychotherapy, especially concerning fringe practices. Its a fair and factual statement. I will see how it fits. Cheers HeadleyDown 07:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I can accept that, VoiceOfAll, though it is not as immediately clarifying as the previous. I do suggest a couple of word changes. Notice that "the study of structure of subjective etc" is considered an outrageous claim by more than a few scientists, and rather than belief about structure, it is more of an assumption. I will make the changes, see how it looks to you. Regards HeadleyDown 07:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Looks fine. I made some small adjustments also. Cheers HeadleyDown 08:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I think the intro is acceptable. JPLogan 09:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. You have just committed a serious offense in your personal attack. But in response, I am going to point out in as polite a way possible your biases.
Your approach to NLP has been one of posting your own POV on the page (your own perceptions of what you think are inconsistencies), and your own claims that you think NLP is really powerful (yes you said that despite the strong evidence of NLP's ineffectiveness), and you have placed a section of speculation from a paper (1987) on the opening in order to negate a recent finding (post 2000). I suggest you are biased:) I will look for remedies for this, but considering I have made multiple compromises today and I cannot see any from you so far, I am going to continue to compromise by reverting to the position of compromise agreed under mediation. HeadleyDown 13:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FT2. No, I have been here long enough to have read extremely deeply into all of the papers and books and I have most of the papers right here on my desk, so I know if people are misrepresenting the facts (eg by snipping bits out of paragraphs without quoting the negative finding at the end:). The latter references quote Sharpley correctly because, like myself, they actually do research professionally. Their representation of Sharpley is that NLP is unsupported. They quote other review papers that say NLP is pseudoscientific in theory, pseudoscientific in association of principles, and of course ineffective in experiment and practice. All the latter scientists who do overall reviews say the same. They also state many other reasons why NLP is pseudoscience. Now most people know that there are pseudosciences used within psychotherapy, but they don't like it. People blame NLP, and they blame the way it is promoted by the main developers. To state that NLP is unsupported and therefore has been classed as pseudoscientific is really very neutral. Regards HeadleyDown 15:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. The section of Sharpley's article you present below is unrepresentative of Sharpley. Not only have you misrepresented his overall tone, but you have taken a small section of an argument that he presents in the paper to support your desire to promote NLP. Now, as you very well know, Sharpley concluded at the end of the paragraph you have partially represented, that NLP had been relegated.
At the end of the paper, Sharpley says that the research does not in any way support the ridiculous claims of NLP.
He put it in negative terms. Not only that but the statement that you present is higly inconclusive and totally unfit for an encyclopedia. He uses words like, may, perhaps, etc. He makes a statement about psychoanalysis being hard to test. But as you know, he believes the tenets of NLP to be perfectly testable. If you wish to take a word out of a critical paper such as "good" and state that Smith thinks NLP is good, when in fact Smith said that NLP is good for nothing, then you have misrepresented that article. JPLogan 01:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Mmm. FT2, I just looked up what my academic writer's manual says about your type of attribution. They call it "intellectual fraud". Oh dear! HeadleyDown 02:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Don't worry about Headley, FT2. I actually like you; I think fanatics are hillarious. DaveRight 02:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi again VoiceOfAll. I added your suggestions to the intro (calibration and programing). Tell us what you think. Regards HeadleyDown 02:52, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks VoiceOfAll. I will see what I can do about the programing relationship. Regards HeadleyDown 00:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello. I noticed that the opening really did not represent the article as a whole. So I added another paragraph in order to represent the article properly. I think more critique can be added. We have 3 large paragraphs giving NLP its say, but had only one little concise one saying what the scientists say. I added one for the critics. Regards HeadleyDown 14:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Yup! I agree. The opening is totally skewed towards promotion of NLP, and not much has been stated about the criticisms. It could be a lot clearer there. Now I have noticed on many other articles that the opening is stated properly (there is a statement about what the article presents, and then there is a qualifier from critics etc. The NLP article opening needs rebalancing to include a lot more criticism in order to make it represent the article properly. DaveRight 01:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello. Yes they are used all the time and are in the new books and editions on NLP. They are also used as the tests have tested them in the research. Here is evidence:
a. NLP coach uses the eye diagram lead/preferred/primaryRS, and says that people can be primarily one or the other also. The NLP Coach: A Comprehensive Guide to Personal Well-being and Professional Success Ian McDermott, Wendy Jago
b. Molden. Managing with the Power of NLP / eye diagram lead/preferred/primaryRS, and has a lot of information on preferred 1996
c. Dilts Bandler Metastates in A User Manual for the Brain Vol 2 2000 page 270 Diagram placing PRS as core to NLP. This puts prs and rs at the core of NLP in the recent model.
I was taught the primary representation system recently and it is still used in modeling according to my trainers (Grinder trainers). Sincerely. HansAntel 02:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Rep systems are certainly taught in both the old and new books and trainings on NLP. I've had no time for a bit (and still have little), but we have to make clear the difference between Rep Systems, Primary Rep Systems, and Preferred Rep Systems - at the moment all 3 seem to be being used synonymously. By separating that we can also show changes to how Preferred RS is taught. I'll have a look at the main article perhaps you've already sorted that out? Oh, HansAntel - what does Molden say about preferred rep systems? GregA 10:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Could use more clarity, some POV remains, to much use of "many".
This one looks to me to be resolved after Headley's editing. What do you think VoiceOfAll? Regards JPLogan 09:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Had some POV, could use minor style rewordings. Voice of All T| @| Esperanza 03:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
If there is doubt please discuss here, rather than fully and indiscriminately reverting, since the above are believed factual, credibly supported, and relevant to balance the present viewpoint. FT2 13:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I've tried to pull this into Wikipedia standard form, without loss or slanting of information.
There is already an article at Modeling (NLP), I have first, merged all the information in this section into that article, so that it is there for other readers. Secondly, I have then updated the main NLP article to give an overview based upon that article's introduction and criticisms section, which explains modeling, overviews it, and reports criticisms of it. Third, I have linked to the full article as backup.
The "wide uses" referred to include for example - models of anger, used in health services for anger management, sports modeling, advocacy modeling used by lawyers, interview modeling used by law enforcement, spelling and teaching models used in education, and so on.
The test of the success of this is, would someone reading it, feel they know what NLP modeling is (in overview), and its criticisms (again in overview). They can then check the related article for detail.
FT2 20:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FT2. Presently the NLP modelling page is full of hype and exagerated claims. I wonder why you didn't notice:) That will change soon enough. Regards HeadleyDown 00:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
the american cancer society has some info about NLP.
there have been no large-scale randomized clinical trials of the method. One small-scale study found that NLP might be effective in treating phobias. However, a National Research Council committee did not find the theories or practices of NLP to be well founded. Indeed, some studies have found that eye movement is not a consistent marker of type of mental processing. This appears to contradict the observations of the NLP founders.
Several reviews of the literature have reported there is little or no evidence to support the effectiveness of NLP. A survey of 139 psychologists listed in the National Register of Health Service Providers in Psychology found that the soundness of NLP was questionable. More scientific research is needed to determine if NLP may help any medical or psychological condition.
FuelWagon 17:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, they are asking practitioners to start putting NLP through clinical tests themselves. Certainly psychology scientists are not going to do it considering the pseudoscientific theories and poor pre-clinical results. Refs can be provided. Regards HeadleyDown 00:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
It claims it is 'The only professional organisation for psychotherapists and counsellors using Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP).
The link is here. FuelWagon 17:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
NLPtCA is a Member Organisation of the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy (UKCP). This umbrella organisation seeks to agree national standards across the whole range of approaches to psychotherapy and counselling.
Yes, this puts NLP within psychotherapy in perspective to some extent. Remember that CBT etc are hugely represented within psychotherapy compared to NLP. The NLPtca is about the only organization that has any standards at all. The UKCP really wants to keep them under scrutiny (I mean make sure they behave themselves). Anyway, just remember how little weight this assoc carries:) Not trying to diss the assoc here, just read the literature and you will see that NLP is mostly the wild west. Regards HeadleyDown 00:52, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Its just a simple question of weight, Greg. Placing a huge paragraph in the opening section that seems to imply that NLP is an entirely respectable set of psychotherapists is quite ridiculous. Also, associating the group with other unconnected associations is also akin to a lie. HeadleyDown 12:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Greg. Sure, that was the problem. Promoters keep putting junk in the opening that wasn't even represented in the main body. Its a pretty sure sign that people are fanatical. Just a pointer on bias! HeadleyDown 13:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
The word "scientists" is a bit... odd to describe the critics of NLP. Do these people have specific job titles? FuelWagon 15:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FuelWagon. Going for another reframe?:) OK, let me explain. Bandler and Grinder are pulling another fast one. They are making the author believe that they are conducting real qualitative research (As if!). What the author doesn't realise is that qualitative also has to be rigorous. It also has to be peer reviewed by independent peers who do not have vested interests and are not likely to say "Yes! You can learn to walk on water using NLP":) Or "Yes. Using NLP a guruworshiping idiot who likes to read cretinous self help pseudoscience can be Eistein if they wiggle their eyes about in just the right direction". Bandler and Grinder have not done science within NLP. Promoters do continue to call them scientists. Fanatics call Bandler "Dr Bandler" and he does not own a medical certificate or PhD. NLP has certainly not earned the title "science". But it has earned the title "pseudoscience". Note that there are research studies in all kinds of subjects that are qualitative, interpretive etc and are not pseudoscience. From what I have read about the researchers of NLP who call it pseudoscience, they have all conducted qualitative studies, and have conducted lab studies, clinical studies, and field studies in an empirical way. Bandler and Grinder have conducted coke sniffing parties at Esalen in order to further their financial interests in NLP:) Their well deserved charlatan/pseudoscientist/shaman label is well deserved. Cheers DaveRight 01:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
In case there was some confusion, and there seems to be some confustion here, I was talking about this sentence: "scientists such as Eisner, (2000); Lilienfeld et al (2003), Helisch (2004); Williams et al (2000), Drenth (2003)". What is Eisner's credentials for criticizing NLP? Is he a therapist? a psychologist? What? "Scientist" is simply too vague to say he qualifies as someone who gets to criticize NLP. FuelWagon 05:31, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FuelWagon. From what I have read they are all slightly different types of scientist. I suppose you could write "a clinical psychotherapist with degrees in psychology and a doctorate in psychology, a psychologist and researcher of psychology as used in psychotherapy and editor of the Scientific Review of Pseudoscience in Psychotherapy (a large body of therapists and psychologists who have classed NLP as pseudoscience), and a practicing psychotherapist and professor of psychology, and another large body of psychologist doctorates who class NLP as pseudoscience, and a psycholinguist with a phd in psychology. But I think that would be a bit long. They are all scientists so I would class them as such. I reckon all 100+ or so of them would be a representative sample by any statistical measure, and they all say NLP is pseudoscience. Best regard Bookmain 06:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Go ahead Comaze. I have some wicked research on that one also. But keep it concise. The scientific conclusion is pretty abrupt and aptly put:) DaveRight 02:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
In this edit [40] . After checking the sources for Bandler and Grinder, they do not refer to 'psychic energy' only 'energy' -- as in collateral energy (Bateson 1972) -- it is powered by metabolism. I added the page numbers so you can check this yourself. This is a necessary distinction to resolve some ambiguity. -- Comaze 13:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I want to add this sentance to the Energy section (last paragraph). "A notable exception is John Grinder (1986) agree who is intolerant of the uncritical importation of fuzzy concepts of energy into the discussion of thinking and language, this is in line with Gregory Bateson (1972, 1979)." -- Comaze 13:31, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. Firstly what does Grinder quote about energy? And are there any comments that he makes to qualify this? ie, I am sure I read him talking of psychic energy somewhere:) I only have to look through my notes. HeadleyDown 14:20, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. I think its fair to say that people are getting a little crazy with organization and weight here.
Firstly, NLP is a pseudoscience and science gets priority and greater weight.
Secondly, the most sensible and intuitive flow is 1State what NLP claims(the map), and 2 State what science and critics say about NLP (the reality) (because science is overwhelmingly critical of NLP).
So please realise how accommodating neutral editors are being here, when NLP gets a huge say in the opening, then there is some (smaller) criticism. It is completely fanatical of people to paste strategically snipped and intellectually fraudulent stuff afterwards (one small part of Sharpley's argument that concluded that NLP had been ditched. The scientific conclusion is negative. Full stop! HeadleyDown 13:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I have compromised with you on far too much already. It is far more reasonable to represent the criticism more fully within the opening. I am fairly representing the opening by being brief. Your so called critical caveat is one part of a single study that reads as a positive conclusion. As you know, the passage you have presented states that NLP maybe could possibly be thought of as being like psychoanalysis. Then it says that if there is anything that could be tested and it fails, then it relegates the field. So NLP has been relegated (it is worse than psychoanalysis). The other conclusion is that NLP claims are scientifically unsupported.
In addition to that. NLP is criticised by a great many other researchers after this 1987 paper. The are within various fields such as business studies, training, psychotherapy, psychology, and so on, and they all say that Sharpley says that NLP is ineffective, unsupported etc. That is their view, not mine. I will represent the views of scientists and critics exactly how they are represented in the literature. You are a complete fanatic who will look for any reason to promote NLP back into the outlandishly exaggerated nonsense that it is.
Also, pseudoscience is used widely. This is a criticism of pseudoscience. People criticise NLP for being part of this problem. NLP is promoted in some business sectors, and of course people fall for the hype. Business writers also state how pseudoscientific NLP is. That will be represented. Pseudosciences are used in therapy. That is criticised. That will be represented.
So, FT2. You are presenting a completely twisted view.
The literature that I have on these matters is very broad and deep. Now, either you start realising exactly how reasonable the non fanatical editors are, or science will indeed be represented with far more weight than the pseudoscince that you are promoting. HeadleyDown 15:17, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
PS.... OK, FT2. Now here is a solution. If you can find literature that states "Sharpley says NLP is lovely, just like psychoanalysis", then that passage is fine. However, so far, the only lit that I have quotes "Sharpley says NLP is ineffective, perfectly testable and pseudoscientific, and scientifically unsupported". Actually Sharpley is quoted for saying NLP is a cult, fad, ridiculously promoted, dubious, etc. HeadleyDown 15:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, FT2. I know Sharpley doesn't say its lovely. You have no way of getting a the overview of science that says NLP is lovely. It doesn't exist. You are not presenting a balanced view. He stated that if it is testable and fails, then it is relegated. Of course it was tested, and it failed. You deliberately missed that point out. YOU are deliberately misrepresenting Sharpley. Plus you have not referred to how other people see Sharpley's conclusion. You have once again taken your own POV and pulled your favourite bit out (and out of context) in order to promote NLP. You are behaving in a fanatical manner. Your edit will simply get reverted. HeadleyDown 16:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. Again, the note, was your view, but it is not the view of any cited source. Parker was clearly represented, and is valid. HeadleyDown 16:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. Your citation of Sharpley is fraudulent. You have decided to present only the parts you like and cut the lower and more negative conclusion off of the quote.
The overview of every scientist who quoted Sharpley says that Sharpley found that NLP's effectiveness and claimed principles were scientifically unsupported. Sharpleys CONCLUSION was that:
"CERTAINLY research data do not support the rather extreme claims that the proponents of NLP have made as the the validity of its principles or the novelty of its procedures". (Sharpley 1987).
That CAN be represented because that is Sharpley's conclusion. HeadleyDown 16:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. Do you actually believe what you say? I rather doubt it. You have not been editing this article long enough to find all the refs. In general it is wise to conclude with the latest information and talk of how people came to that conclusion.
Your method seems to involve making a conclusion, then stating only the positive parts of the arguments that led to the conclusion. Its like saying: If you fly an airliner into the World Trade Center you will kill a lot of innocent people. BUT if you are following your religious rituals to the rule, then it is perfecly fine and you will have the support of God and all righteous persons and will certainly go to heaven.
Perhaps you should go to work on the terrorism article! DaveRight 03:34, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. You censored the bottom of the paragraph for the sake of fanatical promotion. You are biased. YOU told me that you think NLP is extremely powerful. The SCIENCE goes against that. You persist in posting your own POV on the article. YOU have not read the research. You seem to care nothing for history. NLP has plummeted to pseudoscientific status since it has failed to provide evidence for efficacy since the 80s.
You present Sharpley as if he thinks NLP is just like psychoanalysis. He actually states that it is relegated to QUESTIONABLE status in terms of professional accountability. (clearly because NLP proponents make wild claims that fail to be even normally effective). Psychoanalysis proponents do not make wild claims about giving people orgasms just by talking, or learning photographic memory etc.
The one line with the greatest certainty is the one I provided for you in the opening. It is the line that the other researchers refer to when they talk of NLP's pseudoscientific status. HeadleyDown 17:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Mmm. I think I know what's going on here. It seems that FT2 has not much actual information on NLP testing and has only one negative paper on NLP and wants to screw as much positive out of it to promote his darling NLP. OK, now here is the sequence of statements in the text to help all other people clarify what Comaze, um I mean FT2 is trying to do.
1. The results of Sharpley's paper show that NLP is unsupported by data. 2. Sharpley discusses. (note that in a discussion session you use lots of perpapses, maybes, mays etc because you are being speculative) 3 During his speculative discussion he says that NLP is unsupported. 4 Then he says that Einspruch MAY be right about difficulties in testing 5 Then he says that IF that is so NLP MAY be in the same category as psychoanalysis 6 Then he says BUT......If it is tested and fails, then it is relegated (relegated means that it drops in the eyes of scientist. NLP has fallen. Dumped etc
8 Sharpley concludes (just as in the quote presented by Headley) that CERTAINLY, NLP is unsupported by the scientific data.
Sharpley does not say NLP is unsupported BUT it is just like psychoanalysis. He says that NLP would be like psychoanalysis, BUT it has failed in tests.
Now we all know that Comaze, um I mean FT2 is completely fanatical about NLP. The latest up to date (current) information on the scientific testing of NLP shows very clearly that it is scientifically unsupported. The views of scientists (not just Sharpley but other more recently published writers (not 20 years ago)) are that NLP is pseudoscientific because it is unsupported, because NLP pseudos like to twist the findings after the fact, because NLP pseudos use even more obscurantisms etc.
Since the dawning of the Internet wild west, and the mass sale of snakeoil, NLP has seriously fallen down to negative cultic levels in the eyes of scientists and psychotherapists.
The present opening is very mild. If you want to keep pushing it, Comaze, I mean FT2, then you will find it suddenly becoming far more balanced towards science and away from skewed pseudoscience. JPLogan 01:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I reckon the opening needs a bit more representation of science. I'll do the honours. Regards DaveRight 03:34, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. You are wrong again. You took the above statements (strategically altered to remove the damning evidence against you) from JP's reply. Its JP, not Headley. Please quote without twisting facts. AliceDeGrey 05:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Wrong again, FT2. I noticed that the definitions you refer to are actually the ones that VoiceOfAll presented. NLP is really deliberately confusing (in order to get people to by something they assume is science). Good encyclopedic writing will use brief and clear definitions or descriptions that the reader will understand. You seem to be advocating the wholesale use of psychobabble. Its quite funny, but shouldn't be presented in openings. If you want to make people giggle, you could place that kind of obscrure nonsense in the criticism section. DaveRight 09:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Would you care to explain why Sharpley's words - like psychoanalysis - are useful but the conclusion (NLP is relegated from psychoanalysis)? I know its useful for you, because you want to promote NLP. But its pretty useless for people who want to know what Sharpley thinks. "OK Sharpley, what is your conclusion!?" "NLP is a fad" "Oh!". The Druckman "Outdated metaphors" thing is also the view of other recent reviews. The "NLP study limitations" part is not important because every study of any scientific rigor will include sections that talk of limitations, and they always mention that there are limitations. It is scientific convention. Of course, the Druckman study did not include the Sharpley 1987 study refuting Einspruchs claims and providing further evidence and research for NLP's scientific failures. But why am I explaining all this stuff? If you had been around here for the past 18 months you would have read this answer about 5 times over already. DaveRight 09:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and which scientific sources state that "There is an inconsistency between critics who claim NLP is ineffective and those who think it is a dangerously powerful cult technique?" Oh, it was you! Where did you publish that finding? The NLP creative writing journal for the promotion of psuedoscience? DaveRight 09:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Thats interesting Greg. So if I were to post that little bit of vague nonsense on the article, would I cite you or FT2? DaveRight 03:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I say FT2! You really are very naughty! I just checked the Sharpley 87 ref again and he did conclude from his argument that NLP was relegated down from psychoanalysis. Whats more, you claim to be neutral! Not only is you behaviour very naughty, but it is by far the silliest behaviour of all the NLP promoters here. I understand you feel extremely miserable about NLP being sci unsupported pseudoscience. But you found the article, saw that there was a positive line or two within the paragraph and said to yourself:
"Mmm! That conclusion is painfully negative, but if I shave it off, then NLP looks like clinical psychology again!".
You should know that people are going to notice and place the actual conclusion as they actually are in fact. You should also realise that it will lead to more damning detail being presented in order to show exactly how warped and desperate your biased edits are. People here are actually trying to be kind. I have some extremely crushing reviews from Europe and I havn't yet found a way to present them without NLP looking like mass marketed devilry.
Now lets have no more naughty silliness from FT2 or any of the other NLP promoters. Regards AliceDeGrey 05:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I can give you my research. You remember how Heap mentioned in 1988 that if NLP does not stand up to scrutiny or presents evidence of its efficacy etc, then the verdict will be damning indeed? Well I will present his damning words on the article. I think that is what you are asking for. Bookmain 06:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi again FT2. I'm a true nature's child, I was born to be mild. I think NLP is radical. Radically twisted. I have noticed quite a lot of promotion on wikipedia and I find it personally insulting. I have stuck around here due to the high density:) of NLP promoters who would probably paste:
"NLP is defined as the difference that makes the difference, and is a scientifically supported rapid behaviour change method decades ahead of the current state of psychotherapy that will help YOU to ATTAIN EXCELLENCE. It is scientifically defined as THE empirical study of the magical structure of your own excellently subjective experiences. NOW, it was developed by two extremely talented psychotherapists by metamodeling and as you HOLD ONTO THAT IDEA, you will DISCOVER FOR YOURSELF amazing wonder in your OWN UNLIMITED POWER to become whatever you want to be, beyond what you ever previously thought. Currently figures of excellence such as presidents, heads of state, geniuses and a great many other great minds have stated that it is important to BUY INTO NLP to attain even greater success, and COMMIT to NLP to solve your every problem. NLP is the healthy option for rapid increase in excellence and a way to AVOID ANTI NLP THINKING. Some miserable critics have dismissed NLP with limited knowledge and totally failed to test NLP for themselves. To MOVE BEYOND NEGATIVE THINKING, NLP has been empirically proven through multiple observations of accredited practitioners to be by far the most powerful technologies of excellence available to you. NOW, here are some links to my commercial site...."
Anyway, I think you catch my drift. I have seen a lot of hype, and part of it comes from you. DaveRight 09:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Greg/FT2 (definitely not sockpuppets of each other, you make slightly different mistakes, FT2's being the funniest). Of course I'm exaggerating. But only to make a point. NLP promoters did write "the difference that makes the difference" and so on, and are extremely stubborn when it came to removing those kind of promotions. I have a question for FT2; Do you think Sharpley writes in a straw man kind of way? If so, I think you need to consider looking in the mirror again. In continued response to your enquiry about the research; I see absolutely no reason to consider the positive side of a negative result. This is an encyclopedia, and the concise result will be used. Otherwise, you will end up supersizing the article. I noticed since FT2's mass changes to the article, it has actually more than doubled in size. When Comaze and the other self interested NLP promoters were working on their seperate hype page, the article suddenly got down to wiki recommended size. I get the impression that the NLP promoters have spent a lot of time trying to work their own little excuses into the article with absolutely no regard for concision. But then again, I also find it quite entertaining, so perhaps I shouldn't complain too much. DaveRight 03:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. The one thing consistent with NLP lovers is that they are constantly accusing people of not answering questions. Its as if they do not understand anything. It is blatantly clear what our opinions are. I am a scientist and I believe in and understand science. It is the most independent and neutral force within the advancement of knowledge. There are other bodies of knowledge that I have great respect for. Research in general is an excellent activity. Especially if it is rigorous and thorough. NLP is not broadly used. There was interest in NLP from therapists in the beginning, but it dwindled because therapists adhere to science to a fairly good level. The empirical research conducted on NLP is rigorous and credible and it will clarify things well for this article. I intend to represent the most neutral empirical knowledge that we have access to, and represent the most independent views on what that means. There is nothing more to say about it. If you want to ask questions, you know you will probably get answers. If you start hyping NLP above science then you will be told you are wrong by me or probably by someone else. If you vandalise or post unreasonable comments then you will probably be told not to. It is simple wikipedia process. I believe quite strongly in it and it seems to be working. Mediation suits me (because I believe mediators are about as neutral as me, and because they generally adhere to wikipedia's scientific bias). Arbitration is fine also, though it really is a very long way off, and as far as I can tell we have been moving in the opposite direction (towards stability). If that does not satisfy your question, feel free to ask further or more specifically. HeadleyDown 16:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. I do not see anyone avoiding this question. I do see you trying to avoid people from noticing that you have been selectively editing whilst accusing others of that crime. As I said, NLP is not broadly used in psychotherapy, and the initial enthusiasm resulted in a lot of dumping after the original claims were found to be false. The research is correct citable and credible. The research is very useful for determining how well NLP works. So far, it really doesn't work, and it completely fails to live up to the claims of the originators. I am quite satisfied with that. Exactly how much do you dispise the facts, and how would you like to cover them up?
AliceDeGrey
11:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Short answer. Not broadly used, and the science is plausible, credible, and useful. HeadleyDown 16:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. Thank you for specifying your question more carefully as I requested. The prior empirical studies that show some small positive results have been explained as such (little evidence for efficacy). The empirical evidence that points to NLP being wrong is often entitled such as "Eye accessing cues: A statistical anomaly" or something like that. The reason being, the cues, nods, winks etc of NLP are deceptive. They are neither here nor there. They give no particular signal as to what people are thinking, how they are thinking, or what part of the brain they are using etc. It is similar to the research on mirroring. One of the most telling experiments was conducted on subjects who were told how mirroring works, and comparing with subjects who were not told. Mirroring was conducted, and the people who were told of it's effect beforehand were mightilly impressed and found the mirrorer very persuasive (subjective measures). The people who were not warned of mirroring found no difference between parrots and normal communicators. Furthermore, the theory behind what was tested is pseudoscience anyway. As you know, the overview gives a negative result. That is useful. Taking the "little positive" studies on their own really is just like you snipping a little positive section out of a critique, minus the negative conclusion. Regards HeadleyDown 01:47, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
If the history of this discussion has demonstrated anything, it's the pointlessness of trying to engage Headleydown and his ridiculous sock-puppets in a constructive dialogue. lets just get to arbitration a.s.a.p. The guy clearly has nothing better to do than be a self-appointed pedant and a time-waster. Why bother talking to him at all, I bet you all can guess his standard responses and evasions by now - talking to him clearly achieves nothing in terms of moving towards a fairer and more representative article Faxx 14:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
This is funny also, Faxx. When I came to this article, I was welcomed by Comaze. He pasted a sockpuppet label on my site. I decided to keep it and have posted an explanation. Now, again, I would actually love to go through a bit of arbitration. I have buckets of negative press to chuck on the NLP article. Notice how I have not actually added them? What does that suggest to you? Does it mean that I am a really nice fair minded chap, or does it mean that I simply want to keep the article as neutral and encyclopedic as poss? DaveRight 03:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
To Dave Right. Oh really then you must have some really positive stuff on NLP too Mr Right. Please indulge with both. Justin. Please answer?
Hello Faxx. Perhaps you could take up your problem with the mediator:) HeadleyDown 16:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. You state that you have been around for a long time, but you didn't notice that Faxx has added comment here already? I think that you should care more about what people have posted, and be more cooperative with them, and stop trying to add your own opinion to the article. DaveRight 03:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FT2. Don't be too worried about the sockpuppet thing. Except for VoicOfAll, the neutrally minded long term editors have all had sockpuppet labels posted on their own articles, sometimes several times, never with supporting evidence, and sometimes with vandalism to their own statements or resumes and so on by NLP promoters. So it really is quite easy to identify the neutral editors. I havn't noticed any particular vandalism or accusations to the NLP promoter articles. However, TBP seems to be a self confessed sockpuppet and has supported your views very consistently (but then again all the NLP fanatics follow closely to your own fanatical edits and views). So the sockpuppet allegations/admissions are really very clear. NLP promoters see neutral and they post sockpuppet, neutral editors generally laugh it off as the desperate slurs of terminally unconvincing NLP promoters. Regards DaveRight 08:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Second posting - does that count as new? More a voyeur than an editor really. Comment stands, no point in talking to this guy IMHO
Faxx
16:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2 has already moved for arbitration not long ago. There were votes although I did not participate due to not really participating in the editing. I've just been reading the endlesly recycling discussion. Nothing will get done this way. HeadleyDown obviously has nothing better to do with his time than pursue his crusade Faxx 11:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello Faxx. If wikipedia policy and process is the crusade, then I'm all for it. I seem to have a lot of support for it, including from the mediator VoiceOfAll. Regards HeadleyDown 12:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Actually, Faxx. It is not entirely unconstructive. Each cycle involves NLP fanatics moaning about not liking the facts, so the neutral editors go and find more facts to satisfy the complaints. More facts means a better and more solid article. One way to stop the cycle is to stop moaning about the facts. That would also make for a very stable article. If the NLP fanatics were canny enough, they would have stopped moaning a couple of months ago, and we wouldn't have had to expose such detailed negative fact about NLP. It really is a case of - the deeper you dig, the dirtier it gets. HeadleyDown 12:31, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Oooh, what a totally unanticipated response Faxx 13:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
After being away for a couple days, I return to find the criticisim of NLP to be in complete violation of NPOV. You cannot report someone's opinion about NLP as if it were fact. If their opinion of NLP is in dispute with the opinion held by NLP folks, then you must report the view as a view. Please take a look at this diff that fixes a number of basic NPOV violations. Learn the difference. FuelWagon 02:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Mr Dave Right glad you are on board- However Headley Down presupposes we are "Fanatics" Not true and if veiled references are made through his writings it is made clear what he thinks of NLP and it's users and also his use of the Wikipedia which is quite extensive comnpared to my own of the subject, that he is non supportive of the concept, has not looked into positive reviews and has ignored facts to it's testimony. I personally have not made changes to the article and intend not to, I do however expect a responsibility to the article to be NPOV. A derogatory comment as NLP practitioners being involved in this article as being "fanatics" is an understatement compared to the level of his own involvement in the article.
O.K. heres one for you. Anthony Robbins was one of the top students of NLP when it began. However his methods were considerred by many in the NLP community to be cowboy in nature. Cowboy is the term given to those therapists who operate if not all the time then sometimes without the clients consent. It is widely taught in NLP schools he is a cowboy. However Richard Bandler the NLP co-creator in his book Persuasion Engineering written many years later in his thanks to people who he considerred genius' he cited Anthony Robbins as one of these genius'. So which way is it? Is Anthony a Cowboy or a Genius?
Justin. Under the circumstances, fan or fanatic is a mild term. Considering the rotten behavior of NLP promoters here, I believe the fanatic label is completely justified. It shows the level of bias very accurately. Remember that NLP promoters wanted to erase the fact that NLP is categorized as new age (even by NLP marketeers, and even though NLP is technically and anthropologically new age), and remember that NLP promoters wanted to remove the spirit and energy sections that are part of NLP and stated within the literature. NLP promoters here want to remove those facts in order to give the false impression that NLP is somehow reputable or broadley accepted as a respected subject of psychology or psychotherapy. In fact NLP is simply a dubious and ritualistic fringe treatment, just like EMDR, primal scream therapy, or energy/power therapies with some shamanism thrown in. NLP's biggest claim to fame is perfect NLP marriage promoter and divorcee Tony Robbins and firewalking. Bandler (the diet coach and obese shaman guru) comes far down the list of NLP fame in most people's view.
Not true. NLP and they are not promoters they are staying true to form, will not say that which is NLP which is not. Such as the comparison to Dianetics. Only such an unatuned mind would make such a distinction. Well Hell. You're right then. So lets change the name of the article. We'll call it "Dianetics". Oh but that's already taken. We better tell them to move out cos we want that name. O.K. then "Dianetics two" although I doubt we'll get Travolta to make a movie about it. No, NLP is quite different. It's not new age although it was created quite recently. I really dismiss all admissions of the term New age as being a tool to say a subject is propaganda to both generalise whole fields and dismiss them.
Promoters want to place NLP on the same level as the pseudoscientific subject of psychoanalysis, even though it has been scientifically demoted down from psychoanalysis.
What fine distinctions has Psychoanlayisis made that could not be made with NLP in psychoanalysis were that useful it would be promoted as useful by NLP Practitioners and then used. NLP moves far beyond that one Miss DeGrey. If you follow that NLP makes use of all useful models. On another note NLP moves away from analysis which requires one to look at each individual part and moves toward systems thinking which requires to see how parts fit together as a whole in a working system, as stated by Joseph O'connor in "the art of Systems thinking" this detracts from your comment of psycho ANALYSIS also as a NLPer becomes atuned as to how you work as a whole and not from some seperated part. please tell me there is more to this cos I know there is more to NLP. Good Day
Notice that NLP promoters will use as many references to "excellence, great minds, and high performers" when if fact all the developers do is read a few biographies and make it up as they go along (no way of judging if the models are correct) and NLP developers are totally unexcellent in providing rigorous theories and tests to support NLP.
Not true. as a communications tool the new NLPer fledgling starts to question as to how to aquire results. Fine distinctions are made without the aid of biographies. However the option to model someone from a Book is not closed.
Promoters want to quote "the study of the structure of subjective experience" but that in itself is a wild claim (NLPers do not study such things on the whole - they just do a bunch of rituals that some pseudoscientist claims will work for them). NLP should be defined as "claiming to know the structure of subjective experience and applying it as a universal panacea".
Rituals: MMM I could have fun with that. Doctors in our medical centres and hospitals do that study and then undergo ritualistic behaviour to heal. They even congregate in huge buildings that herald their profession and cite the hipocratic oath. So really what is a ritual? and what is a Cult? Clarity of what you mean will mean the world to me. and not only that it's practical.
If promoters spend months trying to remove facts, and trying to put hype into the article, whilst repeatedly stating that neutral editors "do not understand NLP" even though neutral editors have provided the article with solid rigorous scientific evidence, then fanatic is a great word for the promoters here. Since editing here, I am coming far more to the conclusion that NLP really is a kind of self-delusion inducing cult.
Facts: Like NLP is a CULT, Like NLP is exactly like Dianetics, Like NLP deals with engrams. None of these are mentioned in NLP literature
Headley seems to be biased towards science. I am admittedly becoming more biased towards science. Wikipedia is also biased towards science. Its the best way to keep the pseudoscience of NLP in order. AliceDeGrey 05:59, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
You're really funny FT2. Take a look into literature about cults, fringe therapies, dubious therapies etc. They place dianetics and NLP in the same category. Sorry, but you are well in there in both philosophy and practice. DaveRight 01:35, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
NLP is a Science isn't the only claim NLP developers have made and I think you are missing the point. Good day.
Oh and by the way have you never stopped yourself from seeing a movie because of bad reviews and then yourself given it bad reviews even though you've never seen it? Is that questionable?
No I have not said it is a higher order of knowledge only it is different as one person is to the next. And what of psychology do you make that it ranks higher than distinctions made by NLP. they too are different in form and context so what makes it any less valid. As for books on "past life experiences" you read books at your own peril and a writer does not represent the industry as a whole. Even spirituality is discussed in a matter in which it may be. NLPers are encouraged to try new models to see what they do and where they go. You do not have to follow a NLPer to the ends of the earth. This is called independance a bi product of NLP teachings. As for engrams which relates to memory NLP institutes refer memory change methods as submodalities. So what I can't understand (and I do agree that I have not read much on engrams) is that why is emphasis put on engrams when the emphasis in NLP is on submodalities. And even then who has written about engrams and in what context was it made. To tell you the truth one does not need to know about engrams to make radical memory changes please tell me it's relevance or how it takes the field forward. Submodalities suit just fine it does no more nor no less than what it is supposed to do. And even as an idea or a construct of ways of determining memory do not take for granted that engrams is not of a similar ilk.
I never said it was wise. I said it was there and is widely used in NLP teachings. please who is presuming Miss DeGrey. Justin
Submodalities are about as convincing as spirit therapy or phrenology. I dread to think of how many people have been put to death based on such nonsense as eye accessing cues or their submodalities. That kind of pseudoscience it totally unhelpful. Its mostly just silly, but after reading accounts of what goes on with these "therapies" I have to say, its actually quite worrying also. AliceDeGrey 07:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Really but to deny it's (submodalites) importance within NLP and it's students in this article would be ignorance. Do you know what a submodality is? and even then how it is used or I should say they are used. RE:"the science and technology of achievement" yes NLP borrows from other cultures religions and psychologies not because NLP or it's originators want to be them but because they work toward action toward a result. Justin
OK Justin. So you like pseudoscience. I am not keen. NLP likes to take scientific sounding words but no NLPer is willing to test NLP properly. And they still talk of Bandler and Grinder as if they are scientists. NLP is the archetypal source for psychobabble. NLP promoters make claims, and these are tested. They fail. In a way NLP works quite well. Not to help people, but to sell pseudoscientific books for getting people to repeat buy in order to buy more of the same junk because it is unsatisfying. To me, that looks like they are making people desperately insecure, and then never coming up with the goods. That is unethical. AliceDeGrey 08:02, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Who are they selling the books too. NLP practitioners who have done the course and know how to program therefore knowing what to do with them. But reaaly they're aimed at uneducated fools who wanna buy the first book on psychology that they see. Isn't that right Alice. LMAO. What righteous trash that is. They're not marketted that way. They are marketted to people who are already practicing. I dont consider NLP a pseudoscience. Always with scientists they wanna pidgeon hole something give it a name and stick it in a corner NLP eludes that. So try as you might it will not be labelled. Alice you're not NPOV. I make no claim to edit but to shape it. You dont learn NLP from books you learn it from a NLP trainer or practitioner that should be stated. The trance induced by such beings might have something to do with that.
Look you have said that NLPers on this article have complained that you need to know NLP to understand it. Have you ever turned around for more answers and just said enlighten me? Alice?
Wow you're really that NPOV? Justin
MMMM to be taken out of context. These are comparisons that bring up the ridiculous comparisons and likenesses you have come up with for NLP in your "research" Headley and partly some are jokes. However we must know that such things as cults once did not exist so really the concept iis created by man meaning man created a whole way to class specific groups with one word. a negative word. Fanatic can also be taken negatively and I see no difference of fanaticism in my stance in defending the subject and your stance to detract from it. I dont mock the medical profession I mock what you consider ritual to be. I never said NLP was exactly for preventing boredom though it can be done. NLP has more claims than just claiming to be a science a fact you must admit and or write about. The truth is that comment means when you read something you believe it at your own peril. I thought you knew that already about life. No I actually said it took the language beyond psycho babble, Maybe I should have said took it toward a workable model. Largely NLP is marketted that way I believe. Many people I talk to dont know what NLP is. So interest is not exactly thrust in it's direction from non NLPers looking for self help books. I think they'd prefer Doctor Phil who is more high profile. Yeah it can be labelled but who in NLP wants to do that unless it's useful. Yeah a trainer will make all the difference in NLP training. Please tell me you learnt it cold from a book. That would be amazing. Please tell me how did you do it? Yes NLPers can enjoy richer relationships and in most cases keep productive where employment is concerned was the point and also a jibe at yourself. Didn't say Anthony Robbins was a Genius. There was a comparison of opinion about him where you could go either way. Something not achieved in this article. and yes looking down does not mean that you are clinically depressed. Justin
You know upon my first training and modeling my life to the expectancy of what I would like for myself money was furthest from my mind and still is. If you follow film literature and you're own example that money is not the root of happiness and is infact materialistic then it is fair to assume that NLPers also follow a similar vein of thought and more so if it is a part of their personal psychology it is soon remedied with deeper meanings in life and the behaviours we use to fulfill intention. A lot of people know money will not fulfill and a NLPers questioning of his own inner purpose would contradict that money will bring happiness as well. I don't think of money when I do a job or NLP with someone. I dont even charge, that's just me though others will because NLP has become their profession. I'm more interested what I can do outside of NLP in terms of actually applying it in different fields. Your argument about money is weak and holds no bearing on the situation at hand I hope you do not use such justifications when writing an article on the Wikipedia after all: How do you know that money is a primary interest of people publishing their work and then wanting it to be sold? I do not argue that NLP is not pseudoscience you guys brought that one up all on your own. However upon looking it up there is a section that talks about how it is interpreted, usually negative. See all these words you use. Cult, Pseudoscience, Shamanism, Rituals, New Age etc.. to generalise a field, whilst NLP has some traits in common with these it does not posess all traits therefore the words you use are too general to use and misleading into areas that are not explored by core NLP or NLP foundations. However there is a huge section which I have consistently refferred to in this article that has multiple views on how NLP is dubious, unscientifically proven, shamanistic and so forth that misrepresent the field with examples of individuals rather than as a whole. maybe there should be other sections to different schools of thought on NLP rather than lumping them all together. I didn't say that for NLP to be a pseudoscience it has to claim to be a science. Please don't put words in my mouth it's awful dreadful and frightenning. If someone hadn't seen what I wrote earlier they might presume this is true. Justin
The preceding discussion seems to me to be meandering and becoming increasingly further removed from the original matters of concern. NPOV -- in this context can be achieved -- by stating the claims of NLP practitioners, eg. "Bandler claims...', 'Grinder claims...', 'Baffa claims...' and by emphasing that there is little in the way of evidence -- i.e. obtained using well-accepted and well-proven research and review methods -- to support these claims and that where studies have been conducted they have largely found against NLP's efficacy. On a theoretical level, NLP's implicit theoretrical statements about neurology, psycholinguistics, linguistics and cognition are outdated and derived from the 1970s when NLP was being formulated. NLP's theoretical underpinnings are largely a "snap shot" of neurological and linguistic theory of the 1970s.
The article states the above, to that extent it is NPOV.
Anecdote counts for little -- using anecdote we can "prove" anything eg. "if you smoke and drink heavily you'll live to 90 years of age" -- and NLP proponents seek to justify NLP with reference largely to anecdote. Whether the anecdote is personal or in the form of a "case study" is immaterial both are unreliable as evidence.
All of the healings and behavioural changes attributed to NLP can be just as well attributed to non-specific factors of the "treatment" (i.e. the placebo effect). In the absence of blinded and controlled studies we can just as well conclude that Mrs Smiths arachnophobia was relieved not by a brilliant execution of the "Fast Phobia Cure" but merely by the non-specific factors of the "null" treatment i.e. patient expectation, patient belief regarding treatment and patient-therapist trust. The significance of non-specific factors is well researched and well-understood (see http://journals.apa.org/prevention/volume6/pre0060001a.html, http://www.journals.apa.org/prevention/volume6/pre0060006c.html#c1 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect).
The purpose of controlled and blinded studies is to determine whether treatment X is more effective than placebo (and to a lesser extent to determine the magnitude of non-specific factors in a treatment). If a treatment has not been subject to this kind of examination then there is no reason to assume that anything other than non-specific factors are in effect when that treatment is applied.
The only recent form of psychotherapy that has demonstrated value -- i.e. better than placebo -- is Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy. That is to say, CBT has been demonstrated to possess more efficacy than would be expected if only non-specific factors were in effect.
Further, modern medicine's (including psychology and psychiatry's) appreciation of non-specific factors in treatment is demonstrative that the medical profession (research and clinical) acknowledges that the mind (more specifically the meaning ascribed to an encounter) powerfully influences the outcome of a medical encounter. Non-specific factors and their influence on the outcome of a treatment are ever-present and unavoidable: they are present when any medical practitioner prescribes a drug, they are present when the witchdoctor spills the blood of a chicken, they are present when the shaman utters an incantation, they are present when Bandler asks his wide-eyed volunteer to "roll the anxiety in the other direction" in an NHR session, and they are present when a Reiki practitioner lays their hands. The vital difference between the medical practitioner and the others is that medical practitioners intervention brings more than non-specific factors, the drug trials which preceded the drugs introduction assure us of this, i.e. there are specific attributes of the drug which exert a beneficial physiological effect. The point is that NLP has not been demonstrated to be anything more than a delivery mechanism for non-specific factors. This is entirely consistent with the anecdotes regarding NLPs efficacy. flavius 06:06, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Flavius. There is more to it than that though. The anecdotes are mixed with principles that have been found to be scientifically unsupported. Robbins talks of psychology, as do others including Dilts, who also talks about neuroscience. In addition to this, anecdotes by doctors and psychotherapists are generally not wild claims. A large percentage of NLP uses wild claims, in both its principle hypotheses and its marketing push. Put simply, the views of scientists are that they have tested NLP and it does not measure up. It is a pseudoscientific subject for many reasons. Therefore, the anecdotes regarding NLP's efficacy are criticised for being totally wild, and they do not even measure up to normal standards. CBT does have good support (and certainly does not suffer from exaggerated claims) though there are far more therapies that have gained scientific support. Regards AliceDeGrey 06:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Good points all, flavius. There is one significant piece of missing information. There is substantial research that has tested NLP, either in its principles, or in the field, that has repeatedly concluded it can be effective when tested with an appropriately designed test or in a clinical context. As you will recall, the major criticism of many researches has been, that the tests were poorly designed, or that NLP needed to be tested in its own context. As best I can tell, there is now significant evidence that this is the case and has been done. Additionally, whilst anecdotal evidence by paractitioners is correctly identified as a source of bias, and must be examined carefully for the placebo effect which is the immediate suspect in many new techniques, anecdotal evidence should not be dismissed when it becomes of a serious scale, and likely not to merely be the placebo effect. NLP is widely used in many non-NLP contexts, where it is reported positively by credible sources. For these reasons I have suggested that it is inaccurate to state that NLP is unsupported, or dismissed, because it is clear that it is valued in the field by credible non-NLP organisations and mixed results in scientific testing, and at the same time, some others consider it highly dubious. That sounds like a pretty classic Wikipedia "present both views and the evidence". That's why I am at a loss why this article is being so heated and controversial. FT2 10:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
selective reading, selective hearing, selective maps of the world, selective words, selective concepts to use, selective belief. are your edits selective too Mr. Headley? and even then would you know how to make the difference?
Yes FlaviusVanillus. NLP users love to quote Korzybski, but they do so very selectively. Take a look at the intellectual anticedents section on this page. Its outrageous. Most of them will be turning in their grave to think NLPers are namedropping them into the pseudoscience swamp. I think this does come back to the scientific skepticism idea. One piece of pseudoscience says that you must suspend judgment in order to create ideas. NLP does this a lot. But actually, thats all 60s business bunk. The fact is, an expert has a good intuitive idea of whether something will hold or not (intuition in terms of "will this work?"). So if they hear something spurious within idea generation they will drop it like a skunk's legpit. It does not stop them generating; strong skepticism just directs their search better. Anyway, even in groups, idea generation (the amount of ideas generated and the quality) is enhanced through skepticism and dissent. That has been consistent in recent research and goes directly against what new age pseudoscience proposes and assumes throughout (Nemeth 1999 - Minority dissent and idea generation). Anyway, its really interesting stuff. Popular misconceptions and learning from pseudoscientist's mistakes! Cheers
DaveRight
03:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2: last night I went to look up NLP and science to see reports. I sort of don't want to enter the debate on the particulars with these guys. I could research it more and come up with arguments however it seems futile at the moment. The last few passages I wrote was more an appeal to the editors to do the right thing however skeptical I am of their view of NLP. I say good work with trying to come up with a solution. Keep going please. Lame excuses may come out not to use them. Any way I didnt get to the research as such but came across a page by someone who had also researched NLP and it's claim to science. Yeah we get creamed if we try to say it is a science, I'm not too fazed about that, Nor about it being pseudoscience. Some labels bother me due to misrepresentation I'd hope that people would know how to make the distinction. This guy in the article says in his research he found that developers didnt even want to try and prove it was a science. FT2 if you are a NLPer we both know what a NLPer may feel about trying to prove himself or a theory. This news I hope will be valuable to you and perhaps if you research it, it can be used if proven true then it surely would have some weight as to the outcome of what some testers might have thought "mindreading" toward the NLP advocates. Also Headley the "lame excuse's" line is getting old. I'd like to know what the lame excuses were if you are so inclined to tell us. That's a genuine request. My feeling is that whilst an explaination may not rest well with a tester it may have made perfect sense to a NLPer. PLease tell these "lame excuses" sometimes you have to demonstrate the situation to fully know the communication and it's validity in the original context to be able to know if they were "lame excuses". Justin
Well, I see my changes have been reverted with some brief explanation from Hans. I'll present my changes here to get comments and resubmit my changes based on responses. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
All I changed was "Heap etc find that NLP to be pseudoscience" to "Heap etc state that NLP is a pseudoscience". See NPOV Bias in Attribution. GregA
That's a good addition to my correction, thanks. "find" should say "state", and it was a misquote anyway. GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I added that NLP is applied to therapy, and clarified that NLP is applied to fields. A month ago everyone was saying therapy was the prime application, then self-development became the prime one... but both are valid and representative applications of NLP. GregA
Self help seems more focussed on group trainings and individuals - though most of the NLP processes are taught as one person (trained in NLP processes) working with another person - ala counselling and coaching. How do you suggest representing this most common 2-person interaction? GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
NLP is often training in the modeled patterns of excellence, which are bound to also be able to be used to self-help. It's also used in therapy. We need to clarify the application vs what it is.
I also rephrased the opening paragraph as the prior one was misleading.
(oh, the "NLP includes 3 ideas...." I find confusing - I removed Engram references but I agree they are still confusing so I'll leave them.) GregA
Agreed it's not a "how to do NLP manual". However, if you won't use an NLP term as intended but only put it in the pseudoscience "babble" section then you're incredibly biased. Anyway - you agree we should explain submodalities.
Currently it says "how people store and retrieve past memories is based on transformational grammar". I've not heard anything like that, though I agree that a word has a meaning for people. In fact when accessing memories in NLP you often use a trans-derivational search which uses the representation systems to access a memory, another method is simply asking someone to remember something, or using a timeline. What would you change this line to (you've seen my suggestion). It also confuses what came first etc.. The modeling came first and was related to the grammar, all facts are still represented. The following paragraph says that NLP people changed their mind about 'theory' when transformational grammar was abandoned... that's deliberately misleading. GregA
Hehe. Nice choices you gave me there Maulden. Think outside the square eh?. If we had to be perfect to post here, there wouldn't be anyone posting! Anyway, I don't really care who made a mistake, it's what's written that matters. Do you act differently depending on who says something? Also we've tried a few times to represent the broad scope of NLP training so it's quite likely that we'll have different takes and it's valuable to reflect that. GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
NLP also uses the concept of hemispheric differences in order to promote NLP. This must be someone mindreading "NLP" - saying they teach hemispheric stuff because they want to promote NLP???? Got any sources? GregA
Actually, when you look throughout the books they usually teach eye-accessing cues and differences in left and right eye cues - but that's not the same thing as tying it to brain hemispheres (though some books do that) GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Take a look at all the intellectual antecedents comaze was adding. Quite detailed. It seemed simpler to refer to cog sci antecedents as they're the same (very different for what they DO with the antecedents, but the same history). GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Wanting to sell a product, is unrelated to the quality of the product. Perls & Satir were original models, are you disputing that? Anyway, back to my sentence, which was there are shared intellectual antecedents with the cognitive sciences.... Comment on that? GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
It says that you can replace beliefs with good ones, or replace beliefs with bad ones. Why not say "it can replace beliefs"? I'm not too worried as long as it's clear. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
All I've done is corrected some grammar and explained some slightly clearer. No idea if there's an objection to that. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I separated out the common parts of NLP modeling and Analytic modeling, and made the differences clear. Problem?
This had some significant changes simply because so much is irrelevant to NLP. This is not a history of Perls article.
Nor is it a rehash of the scientific testing or spiritual connections - I left a note on these in my change and referred to the appropriate section GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
This section I went back over past changes that have been made and reverted without much comment, and reposted what I thought was fair and hope to have some debate on it. I'll say why I thought it was fair: GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Heap's quote characterising NLP with gullibilism is pretty repetitive, and didn't tie down anything new. Removed. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
The British Psych society says nothing negative about NLP so Parker is highly dubious. Platt's comment... well, that line is his opinion not what he called 'review'. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I removed the "as yet no scientific evidence" as it clearly belongs in the science section, and it's repeated ad nauseum.
It's a broken record... it doesn't belong in the "extraordinary claims" section. As to its validity lets talk about that in FT2s section... it's not a clear cut subject. GregA 14:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
The claims to breast enhancement are not criticisms against NLP, rather against people making such claims and citing NLP processes. Still worth noting in the article of course. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
This is the area where ecology is really important. Ecology is how NLP processes are used in a way beneficial to the subject, and as such need to be discussed in relation to ethics. Instead it's been removed, so I readded it (and it was removed).
You've got more comments on "NLP is unsupported"... refer to the other section. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Firstly I changed the heading to remove the bias. Clarified the application of NLP in those areas. I'm not sure who wrote this originally but it is far more neutral that what's there. GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
You'd better read that one. It's incredibly biased at present. "The presuppositions of NLP create a background for reduced resistance"... really... GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
You're biased by calling me and others "sellers", and you obviously never read the (temp) page if you think we haven't been forced to compromise alot. Yes explaining is the only way to solve this so please respond to my comments. If (when reverting) you can leave in what you DON'T object to rather than reverting everything it'd make it easier - in good faith I've made these sections above to get your feedback though some are probably unnecessary(??). The biggest problem with this article is that if anyone says anything, it's fair game to go in the article... no wonder it's getting so huge. This in contrast to working out what are minor POVs and getting to the core of what NLP is (which this article fails to do). GregA 03:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh.. BTW, I just noticed you ONLY commented on the "overview" section. I'm wondering whether you considered the other sections at all.?? And you say "less babble"... can you tell me ANY babble that was added (besides ECOLOGY). yes there is the submodality stuff, which you said needs to be mentioned - how do you personally decide if it needs to be mentioned or is babble? GregA 03:46, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello again. I myself am from mainland Europe and I have noticed that the NLP sellers like to follow the Anglo American view of NLP too much. In Europe and Asia, NLP does not get the same kind of views. It is seen very much as a pseudoscince cult in France, in Germany they are very against such weak methods, and other places also simply call it self help sales speak. This is especially after the 90s when businesses all over were changed and they were told to get used to it using such NLP seminar kind of change management methods. In business it is just seen as hoodwinking. I think this needs to be taken into account much more. The article needs a world view. HansAntel 02:31, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes I agree. The international view is far more reasonable AMaulden 05:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Sure Hans. I'll start putting in the refs you sent us. Best regards HeadleyDown 08:59, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
A counter example is that requirements engineering using NLP meta model is quite popular in Germany, Australia and Ireland, see example. -- Comaze 13:52, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Comaze. Well this is going to be interesting. I have actually published journal papers on the psychological aspects of requirements elicitation for information systems development. Claiming that NLP is in widespread use among information systems developers would be like stating psychotherapists primarily refer to physiognomy in order to determine the level of delusion in a client. HeadleyDown 14:26, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
You know, FT2. You are doing pretty badly on the research front. I had a good look at the Bolstad reference. Its pretty funny. Meet the chap in person
[46]. Not dodgy car salesmanlike at all!:)
Richard Bolstad is not a professor or practicing psychotherapist. He is an NLPer with a clear vested interest in promotion. His scientific sounding (but actually pseudoscientific) article is not published in a peer reviewed independent journal. He is simply writing psychobabble in order to promote his business.
He talks about spiritual transcendence, the natural languages of the brain, modalities (the same old NLP obscurantism), the pseudoscience of representational systems, and split brain myths as if they are absolute truths. He quotes all the supporting evidence (often out of context research from writers who have never even heard of NLP and if they did, they would probably just laugh it off).
He states that emotion affects the perception, but does not say practically to what extent. He talks about checking reality, but does not refer to proper empirical checks. He talks about mirror neurons to support rapport and mirroring, but he does not say exactly how unsupported mirror neurons are. They may exist, but they certainly do not support mirroring, they only might explain the chamelion EFFECT (not cause).
The references he uses are highly selective, often completely out of date (lots of it is debunked) and of course he treats Bandler and Grinder as supreme beings and gives them tons of airing.
Anyway, keep up the hard work; digging yourself into pseudoscience and cultish obscurity. HeadleyDown 10:23, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
You know, FT2, you are the biggest misquoter on this article. You actually wrote: "Prof. Lakoff also states "Even if by today's cognitive science research standards some of the original NLP research must be called inadequate, we now can classify NLP research projects as fitting in the field of cognitive science." Lakoff never wrote such a thing. Lakoff is not an NLP fanatic. The more you do this kind of thing, the more people will see you as a fanatic.
HeadleyDown
10:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I looked FT2, and there are no references to NLP in Lakoff's book that you cite and of course nothing about cognitive science and NLP. HeadleyDown 11:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Look FT2, I noticed that you also misattributed the other lines to lakoff when in fact the NLP biased reviewer of his book wrote them. HeadleyDown 11:45, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh look, FT2. You continue to represent Sharpley by cutting off his conclusion. Remember that people are actually reading what you write. When you dump vast amounts of bias onto wikipedia, people are going to notice:) HeadleyDown 10:38, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello FT2. I noticed your points above are kind of accusations. I think you are trying to mislead people.
Perhaps I should introduce. I am a therapist, and I came accross this site a while back. I did attend an NLP course a couple of years ago, and found it quite laughable considering all the other training I have received on counseling skills. Anyway, I read through the article and some things that had been nagging at the back of my mind have been well verified. My colleagues tend to call NLP a pseudoscience, and really its more of a motivational guru method. The skills they taught us were miserably simplistic. For example the rapport skills were pseudoscientifically explained (to the point where people laughed and choked on their coffee etc) and ineffective to the point of fostering mistrust. In short, NLP is ineffective and misleading.
Well, to solve that nagging feeling I had a good go through the library, made the relevant photocopies, and indeed, the article is extremely well researched. There are a few things missing, and Hans above seems to have pointed that out already. There are some useful French and German research papers that concur with the Sharpley conclusion (and yes, Sharpley says NLP fails, and is a cult and a fad).
Clearly, NLP is far more of a self help/stage hypnosis concern. It is indeed a fringe therapy concern also, and although I am sure NLP companies love to claim that they teach real therapists, most of those therapists would never boast of being an NLPer. Like myself, the certificate is consigned to the bin.
There are some NLP therapists (who love to claim they are real therapists) and all they do is talk nonsense about pragmatics as if pragmatics do not have a theory.
Certainly psychotherapists are quite alarmed at the amount of bogus therapists there are who charge lots of money for tapping away at your meridians, or waving their fingers in front of your eyes, or indeed doing NLP "changework" as if it is some kind of deep and meaningful method. Its not! It is entirely shallow and can quite reasonably be labeled fraudulent.
In short, the scientific research presented on this article is conclusively negative, and that is exactly factual, truthful and neutrally stated. The only reason for stating otherwise is to do what all NLP people like to do; to twist words and reframe things to make them sound like they have neuroscience, psychology, and the whole of the psychotherapy community supporting them. The more recent literature shows that the medical, psychology, and therapy community is very troubled by the ridiculous claims of NLP charlatans and pseudoscientists. From a global perspective, NLP is just stage hypnosis with some business marketing thrown in. It certainly is not psychology.
Anyway, I appreciate what the nonNLPers have none with the research here, and if I find some aspect of it to help clarify NLP in its rightful place as a messy and misleading pseudoscience, then I certainly will. Sincerely AMaulden 04:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, you do get some very stupid psych bodies who allow NLPers to do therapy. Usually they are without degrees, and have learned NLP from a biz background in motivational hype. They go in completely unprepared for counseling or psychotherapy and screw people out of money and out of their mind. The course I attended was the best that you could buy, and followed Dilts and Bandler et al to the letter. Conclusion: NLP is just worthless pseudoscience. AMaulden 05:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FT2, allow me to vent my view. NLP is most definitely just a lot of hot air. This has to be the most solidly referenced article I have ever seen on NLP. Most of what you read in the shops and adverts is about how NLP is all about science and geniuses and how to be superexcellent and they give nothing to back up their hype. They've been doing the same crap for decades and never deliver any reality on those wild whoppers they keep coming up with. Its so refreshing to read the views of proper psychologists here. Of course it is just about selling books and tickets. Looks to me like YOU have been sussed. Totally. JaseC 07:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
You know, FT2. Just because you post huge amounts of biased extra articles on wikipedia to try to negate the crushing reality effect of the main aricle, does not mean you can go bossing people around. I suggest you have a little more respect. I would allow you to go on insulting them, but I don't want this article discussion to seem too unwelcoming.
HeadleyDown
10:54, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi. Actually, Greg, the research I have read is from highly regarded experts who are also practitioners (of psychotherapy or hypnotherapy or both). I see no reason to question their credibility, especially as they are clearly extremely good researchers (usually some kind of professor). Not only do they have a moral conscience to point out misconceptions, but they do it extremely convincingly. And no, its not just about PRS. The researchers also talk of various signs of pseudoscientific activity such as using holism to cover up failures, to hype using stories rather than directing attention to close examination of assumptions or testing their own methods scientifically. The reviewers tend to agree (including Heap) that the theory is wrong (and pseudo), the results are ineffective, and the hype continues with no real effort to advance the field. I have reported what they say as neutrally as I can, but sometimes the only thing you can do is state it exactly as they say (often harshly). Regards
HeadleyDown
13:12, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I just removed a sentence that says NLP is used for "occult" practices. This sentence is in the part of the intro that is reporting the pro-NLP point of view. I find it highly unlikely that an advocate for anything would call their practices "occult". The "applications" for NLP that can be listed in the pro-NLP part of the intro must be from the main NLP advocates, and it must be sourced. This sentence reads more like it is coming from an anti-NLP critic and is being used to discredit NLP by saying "Look, see? They use NLP for occult ceremonies" or whatever. If that's the case, you must report this in the anti-NLP part of the intro, you must write it in the form of who said it, and you need to provide a URL, so someone else can verify you didn't stretch the truth in order to defame NLP people. Reporting from the source is required for NPOV policy. Providing a URL helps protect wikipedia against defamation lawsuits. And if you do not have a source for the term "occult", it is also violating "No Original Research" policy. FuelWagon 16:28, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FuelWagon. As best I can determine from computer translation of the Dutch... Jan Damen says he got an article from a friend which referred to the "Cult Pocket Dictionary" by Rob Matzken (director of both "the Bible and Education Association" and "True Christians"). Besides terms such as Reiki, Gnomes, Yoga, Chakras and Halloween, it listed NLP. So he decided to see why Matzken put NLP in that list. He says the book quotes the bible alot and takes the words literally (which he says is debatable). He lists their definition of cult (I think he says "cults claim to expose secrets but are secret themselves" or similar, and that all the cults believe in supernatural, magic, astrology, and spiritualism etc, and such (assumed) strengths are applied to explain and/or master natural events). He then says the booklet says that "NLP uses several occult techniques under pseudo-scientific names such as regression technique (trance work in the past and even previous lives). It also says NLP does Out-of-Body experiences and puts people in a "positive-energy frenzy" - (which he has never experienced in all his NLP trainings and experience). Matzken and his spiritual brothers assume the following basic simple rules - If it is not in the bible or does not respect their explanation of the bible it is wrong; Life is suffering and if you want to change that it is wrong. Jan Damen says he hasn't experience what NLP is accused of, nor does he think their bible interpretation is the more general interpretation of the bible.
The article is really just referring to another intense Christian group and their beliefs. I don't know why Headley thought this was worth any more than any of the other cult/christian links like the watchman stuff.
Personally I was surprised that Yoga was in that list (but that's just me!). Certainly NLP doesn't teach out-of-body stuff, but I concede that some "timeline" guys talk about past lives (though when I've heard or read that, it always also says "It doesn't matter what's true, just what you believe in this context which we're going to explore"). I assume the positive frenzy is like some of those LGATs Headley keeps saying are NLP - I've never experienced them in an NLP context though what I've seen was using some very effective language, anchoring, and belief change patterns (whether conscious or unconscious), patterns that I recognised because I've been NLP trained to recognise them. Hope the above helps GregA 22:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I also just removed a sentence that said "NLP has also been identified by the British Psychological Society as quintessential charlatanry (Parker 1999).". This was tagged by someone as being dubious. If this statement is untrue, it exposes wikipedia to a defamation lawsuit. Given how severe this sentence is, and given the penalties that could occur if it is actually wrong, it needs to be removed until it can be verified to be true. Before reinserting this claim, please provide a URL so that others can verify the accuracy of the sentence. Once again, a name in parenthesis does not cut it for wikipedia's requirements of verifiability. Please familiarize yourselves with wikipedia policy on NPOV, NOR, and Verifiability. FuelWagon 16:32, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Sanghera is stating a common set of criticisms. It is entirely representative. It does come from a reliable source (The Financial Times) and gives a great account of someone's view of the subject. JPLogan 02:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Remember what happened during the late 80s and early 90s. Tony Robbins and a whole lot of therapists dumping NLP because it was debunked! Heap is demostrating his conclusive view. JPLogan 02:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
This is correct. I have the photocopy of that page. Singer (RIP) was a world authority on cults and manipulation and like a lot of psychologists was repelled by how people tried to get business employees to be really cheerful about having their livelihoods threatened during the "downsizingfest" of the 90s. JPLogan 02:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello VoiceOfAll. Your changes are appreciated. Please do not be conned into pasting NLP promoter's cuttings into the article. For the most part they have the conclusive statements missing from the paragraph. Your last edits in the science section had those problems. Its completely forgivable considering the literature is actually very large and difficult to get through. The conclusions that neutral editors post into the article have been taken from multiple sources and they concur with each other. The latest literature states that NLP is wrong, unsupported, ineffective etc and cites Druckman, Heap, VonBergen, and Sharpley 97, amongst others. They all use the conclusions that NLP is scientifically unsupported. None of them say there are limitations, because Sharpley has already established that there are no limitations. I have been trying to keep to that very neutral statement (scientifically unsupported), but as you may have noticed, any cutting from the middle of paragraphs by the promoters will tend to lead to me having to paste the actual harsh conclusive statements of scientists. Regards HeadleyDown 04:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi VoiceOFAll, perhaps I should explain further. Heap and Druckman did not take Sharpley's 1987 paper into account when considering Einspruchs criticism of the review. Recent reviews do take Sharpley 87 into account. They state that NLP is pseudoscience, fraudulent, grossly misleading etc. They also say that Einspruch and Formann are putting the burden of proof on the testers, rather than the claimers. That is a pseudoscientific argument. The burden of proof should always be on the people claiming to give 10 minute phobia cures etc. Of course, NLP promoters never provided reliable proof (just stories pseudoscientific explanations and more hype - according to Lilienfeld, Singer, Eisner etc). Regards HeadleyDown 04:16, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
If you could, you would probably mark science as dubious. JPLogan 02:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I've posted to HeadleyDown's talk page directly regarding his recent large reversion to the NLP article. FuelWagon 16:57, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Its pretty simple, FuelWagon. If you have lots of people advocating a large collection of points, and someone makes huge changes to the article, you can pretty much expect reversion. Especially as you make changes that are completely unreasonable and quite censorious.
HeadleyDown
17:03, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
FT2. I have seen your large collection of information. I notice that a great deal of it is completely wrongly marked, strategically arranged, and similar to your efforts on this article, some of the conclusively negative statements are censored. I see your large set of biased remarks as a massive piece of evidence that you are probably even more biased than Tony Robbins. It is very clear that you simply want to promote NLP.
JPLogan
02:39, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Note also that if you wish to write your neutral assessment of FT2's collection of notes, you will probably have it removed from that page by FT2, even though FT2 has pasted his own pro-NLP POV all over the page. HeadleyDown 03:23, 13 November 2005 (UTC)