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Can you change the following text: "There is no scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates and it has been discredited as a pseudoscience by experts" TO "There is some scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates, (see: http://www.nlp.de/cgi-bin/research/nlp-rdb.cgi) and expert psychologists are ambivalent in their assessment of NLP as they are of many modalities"
My reasons for asking for this is I am a professional chartered psychologist who has been practicing in the UK and using NLP for 25 years. I have written my own academic text on NLP: (The theory and practice of NLP coaching, 2013, (Sage) and numerous academic articles which can be viewed by going to the above web link. Wake et al (2013) have also produced a responsible academic text demonstrating the evidence base for NLP in the context of psychotherapy. Wake, L., Gray, R. M and Bourke, F. S. (2013). The Clinical Effectiveness of Neuro-linguistic Programming. A critical appraisal. Ed. London and New York: Routledge. NLP has in fact produced both RCT's and Meta-analysis, which can be accessed at the above web link and it is simply not true to say there is no scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates, there are. Also it is not true that NLP has been discredited by experts. Some psychologists have written in an unfavourable way concerning NLP, but NLP has not been discredited scientifically. Little evidence for, is very different from evidence against. Thank you and kind regards. Dr Bruce Grimley Brucegrimley ( talk) 20:25, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
OK, I understand. But here are 2 RCT's related to NLP. Surely even 2 are enough to suggest the wording "No scientific evidence" is wrong. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272743688_Raising_maths_attainment_through_enhanced_pedagogy_and_communication_Results_from_a_'teacher-level'_randomised_controlled_trial_An_NLP_related_study
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0091217417703285?journalCode=ijpb
Thank you. Brucegrimley ( talk) 21:05, 17 October 2018 (UTC)-- Brucegrimley ( talk) 21:05, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
I know this will probably get deleted because I don't sign in but whatever. Source 10 (the social work handbook) seems to be primarily based on source 11 (not a good look). Source 11 (Sharpley, 1987, p. 103-107) summarises other studies (which themselves tend to have mixed or inconclusive results) attempting to disprove PRS. Now I don't have any stake in this and personally I don't think very highly of the whole PRS categorisation thing (in case anyone is unfamiliar this involves categorising people as 'visual' 'auditory' or 'kinesthetic') but this is not NLP in it's entirety. Sharpley's - well it's not really a meta analysis - is poorly written; indeed the fact that so many of the studies criticising NLP involve self-reporting is poor scholarship in on the part of the authors summarised. The pseudoscience claim needs to be backed up by much better evidence or changed. Finally, simply writing 'experts' as the origin of the claim is a transparent appeal to authority - by the way Sharpley was employed by the faculty of Education at Monash at the time - not exactly an expert. Now I'm not out to defend NLP, it is simply that this article does itself a disservice by labeling NLP pseudoscience on the strength of what is essentially one piece of very mediocre evidence. I'm just a guy who got vaguely interested in hypnotism after hearing Derren Brown on Sam Harris' podcast (I'm not really a fan though I can't stand the cult that seems to have sprung up around him) and ended up here. If this isn't changed or better supported then you will just get more people like me arriving on this page and thinking "Huh? This looks like a hit-piece" - because right now that's what it looks like. 144.48.37.100 ( talk) 10:01, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia's standard for articles is a neutral point of view. The author, unfortunately, establishes a bias against neuro-linguistic programming from the second sentence. Of all the photos available of Bandler, the most unflattering was chosen. I am not a proponent of NLP, I am just beginning my research of the subject. However, I suggest that the article be deleted until someone without clear bias can appropriately address the topic. Kestreljc ( talk) 13:12, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Disambiguation "Not to be confused with Erhard Seminars Training (EST)." Why is this even here? There are no connections between the subject matters other than two (different) three letter abbreviations. Neither topic has shared roots documented anywhere on Wikipedia beyond links with the 'Human Potential Movement'. Not to be confused with British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) would be equally inappropriate despite both topics being concerned with communication. Please consider removing this disambiguation as it serves no useful purpose. 92.19.38.175 ( talk) 08:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC) steve
Disambiguation "Not to be confused with Erhard Seminars Training (EST)." Why is this even here? There are no connections between the subject matters other than two (different) three letter abbreviations. Neither topic has shared roots documented anywhere on Wikipedia beyond links with the 'Human Potential Movement'. Not to be confused with British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) would be equally inappropriate despite both topics being concerned with communication. Please consider removing this disambiguation as it serves no useful purpose. 92.19.38.175 ( talk) 08:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC) steve
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Citation number 5 is supposed to provide a source for the statement that NLP can treat near-sightedness, but does no such thjng. Instead, it references a creator of NLP who is discussing how he used HYPNOTHERAPY - NOT neuro-linguistic programming- to treat nearsightedness. NLP therapy and hypnotherapy are not the same practice. 69.146.189.251 ( talk) 18:09, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Just pointing out that a citation for describing something as a pseudoscience is a little odd.
By definition, a pseudoscience has no proof.
Anyone else care to comment? Ambitus ( talk) 13:29, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
I’ve reverted an edit removing pseudoscience, which is described as being “opinionated”. It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of fact. Many other articles relating to pseudoscience have it stated in the lead, this should be no different. Ambitus ( talk) 07:27, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Hah hah Roxy! I reverted the edit to your previous edit, so I guess that’s why your name shows up :) Ambitus ( talk) 08:05, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
It was only once in the lead Ambitus ( talk) 13:52, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
It was only once in the lead Ambitus ( talk) 13:52, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
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CHANGE UNDER CRITICISM AND EFFICACY Neurolinguistic programming is also known as neurolinguistic psychotherapy. A plethora of studies confirms the effectiveness of NLP; however, scepticism remains evident. Neurolinguistic programming psychotherapy(NLPt) aims to determine patient’s patterns and change their response’s to stimuli in order to help them regulate their environment and themselves more effectively. NLPt attempts to achieve goals, improve relationships, eliminate fears, build self-image and worth, and for the patient to do their best. NLPt originated as NLP in the 1970s. NLPt is derived from neurobiological, systematic and metatheoretical foundations. NLPt deducts from NLP’s techniques. There is evidence of NLPt helping in some cases, but also there is evidence where NLPt was not beneficial. NLPt’s use for patients with psychological challenges and low perceived quality of life was effective as an intervention, improving both of these deficits significantly. Among claustrophobic patients who had to undergo MRI, NLPt was effective in decreasing the need for general anaesthesia and therefore it can be concluded as an effective intervention for this group. NLPt was shown to impact the allergic immune function in birch pollen allergic humans and these patients experienced significant improvement in all psychological symptoms.<references/Zaharia, Cătălin, et al. “EVIDENCE-BASED NEURO LINGUISTIC PSYCHOTHERAPY: A META-ANALYSIS.” Psychiatria Danubina, vol. 27, no. 4, 2015, pp. 355–363.> NLPt administered to those with anxiety for public speaking as a single session treatment for phobias, in comparison to an intervention of self-control desensitization for the same amount of time or a waiting-list control condition (other psychotherapeutic interventions), was less efficient in decreasing anxiety. Additionally, the seemingly rapid effectiveness of NLP may have been a product of changes that may have occurred without the interventions provided, therefore the efficacy of NLPt decreasing different social and/or psychological problems remains unclear. There is evidence to support the positive effects of NLPt however further study is necessary to corroborate such a claim due to small sample sizes of previous studies.<references/Sturt, Jackie, et al. “Neurolinguistic Programming: a Systematic Review of the Effects on Health Outcomes.” British Journal of General Practice, vol. 62, no. 604, 2012, doi:10.3399/bjgp12x658287.> NLP suffers seven critical challenges, which results scepticism in its efficacy. They are as followed: NLP’s pragmatic, anti-theoretical stance, its eclecticism and lack of theoretical coherence, its weak linkage to contemporary academic work in relevant fields, the belief that there is research evidence refuting NLP, an unclear evidence base for NLP and a lack of evaluation of its practices, ethical concerns about the way NLP is used in practice, and a lack of reflexive critique of NLP’s discourse and social practices. NLP’s pragmatic, anti-theoretical stance has been a criticism of it because the founders of NLP held an explicitly anti-theoretical, pragmatic stance, however there are theoretical skills, classroom management, teaching design that are integral to NLP. For example, the core language model of NLP which is called the meta-model is made up of a set of verbal patterns with corresponding forms of question that evoke exploration of learners’ mental constructs. This meta-model provides a framework that enables the intervener to inquire the patient effectively. In addition, NLP takes into account non-verbal communication, which can improve the intervener’s observations of the patient. NLP’s eclecticism and lack of theoretical coherence is due to its contents and practices drawing upon diverse fields such as behavioural psychology, cybernetics, cognitive psychology, the Palo Alto school of brief therapy, and Chomsky’s transformational linguistics. NLP’s weak linkage to contemporary academic work in relevant fields is due to a need for more explicit evidence. There is a lack of academic research of NLP, it is lacking empirical support. It has been concerned that NLP may be manipulative, therefore warrants ethical concerns. <references/ Tosey, Paul, and Jane Mathison. “Neuro‐Linguistic Programming as an Innovation in Education and Teaching.” Innovations in Education and Teaching International, vol. 47, no. 3, 2010, pp. 317–326., doi:10.1080/14703297.2010.498183.> 99.25.73.78 ( talk) 01:19, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
Under the Psychotherapeutic subheading of "Applications" subsection, Stephen Briers was quoted saying "NLP's reframe casts us into the role of a widower avoiding the pain of grief by leap-frogging into a rebound relationship with a younger woman, never pausing to say a proper goodbye to his dead wife." While a colorful and vivid metaphor, it's too sensational and provocative, not worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedic article. It's also unnecessary within the larger, more substantive quotes criticizing "the NLP maxim—a presupposition in NLP jargon—'there is no failure, only feedback'". This is mae clear in the abstract without referencing such an unseemly metaphor. Cuvtixo ( talk) 17:43, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
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As a practitioner of NLP for 20 years, with many successful client change efforts, I do not dispute the research cited but I do dispute the use of "pseudoscience". NLP has never claimed to be a science but rather a "process-driven" approach to change. Thus, I request the following change of the first sentence: Neuro-linguistic programming is a process-driven approach to change through communication, personal development, and psychotherapy created by Richard Bandler and John Grinder in California, United States, in the 1970s. 98.114.91.21 ( talk) 12:25, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-01-29-mn-26470-story.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jojothedogboy ( talk • contribs) 19:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Frogs into princes has been cited over 1500 times on Google scholar and sold more than [ https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03069885.2019.1622075 270,000 copies]. The Structure of Magic as over 1300 cites. Patterns of the hypnotic techniques of Milton H. Erickson 1&2 has over 1000 cites combined. We've got an article on Psychology Gone Wrong: The Dark Sides of Science and Therapy - it only has 13 citations which criticises some of these books. There is a quote from Weitzenhoffer which criticises Patterns 1&2 but there is no context. Similarly the quote attributed to Stollznow about the book "Frogs into princes" also has no context and completely dismisses it as pseudoscience without further discussion. A quick scan of the 1500 citations shows that most of the discussion of the book takes it seriously. There are many academic articles and reputable authors who at least took it seriously at some point. Quotes of language patterns that Bandler and Grinder extracted from Milton Erickson's video transcripts would give context. You can use some short video or audio snippets under fair use as well. In terms of changes, I think you should some quotes and perhaps audio or video from Bandler and/or Grinder demonstrating the use of language patterns they claim to have extracted (modeled) from Milton Erickson, Virginia Satir, and/or Fritz Perls. -- Croech ( talk) 03:32, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
There was a special issue on 'NLP Coaching' in last year's International Coaching Psychology Review Volume 14 No. 1. These articles provide historical context from the point of view of psychology and coaching practitioners on the development of the personal and executive coaching industries currently missing from this article. -- Croech ( talk) 05:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
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There has been extensive recent testing of NLO for successful treatment of PTSD in the military which hasn’t been represented here. For further information please see: http://www.researchandrecognition.org/pdf/Traumatology.pdf 203.118.175.156 ( talk) 23:12, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
Bovbjerg's secular critique of NLP is echoed in the conservative Christian perspective of the New Age as represented by Jeremiah (1995)[116] who argues that, "[t]he 'transformation' recommended by the founders and leaders of these business seminars [such as NLP] has spiritual implications that a non-Christian or new believer may not recognise. The belief that human beings can change themselves by calling upon the power (or god) within or their own infinite human potential is a contradiction of the Christian view. The Bible says man is a sinner and is saved by God's grace alone.
Its not clear to me why this paragraph is present in this article except to promote Christianity given that it does not specifically critique NLP. It could just as easily be applied to psychology, mindfulness, or life coaching. I could quote a number of other non-Christian religious traditions that are complementary or contradictory to NLP or this perspective.
There should be a subsection on submodalities [1]. This is the idea that your senses are not binary, but rather exist on a spectrum. Senses generally fall into four categories: Visual (sight, images, spatial), Auditory (sound, voice), Kinesthetic (propreceptive, somatic), and Olfactory/Gustatory (taste, smell).
There should be subsections for popular NLP models. A few popular models include:
Dennisconsorte ( talk) 10:22, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
Missing from the NLP introductory paragraphs is mention of the decades old and ongoing controversy surrounding "Comparative effectiveness of paraprofessional and professional helpers".
Just as a cheap generic drug can eliminate highly profitable pharmaceutical product lines, NLP has the potential to undermine various lucrative psychological business (as well as career) models. Hence, critical reviews of NLP done by those with financial or other conflicts of interest must be appropriately scrutinized. That scrutiny also does not seem to have been applied to this Wikipedia article.
Properly performed studies comparing internal psychological modification techniques must, at least initially, be correlational. The essential question is "has the individual's life improved" after application of the technique, and although the answer may be nuanced, it will be fundamentally binary. None of the sited studies in the introduction appear to cover the breadth of NLP and meet the correlational (observational and non-experimental) requirement. In an absence of properly performed studies by unconflicted researchers, the general claim that NPL is pseudoscience is likely a simple attempt to discredit the technique and bias the reader*, and thus inappropriate here on Wikipedia.
* Caveat emptor of course always applies when seeking help in exchange for money, and this must of course be applied both to NLP practitioners as well as the more widely recognized professionals who charge for services. But just as any practitioner in any profession may not posess the skills or ethics needed for a positive result, who practices, and for what purpose, cannot be used to judge the overall effectiveness of the techniques in question.
Duanev ( talk) 22:21, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
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NLP isn't pseudoscientific; it has a good research base proving both its efficacy as well as validity 1.186.180.95 ( talk) 02:27, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
NLP is an umbrella term for many ( hundreds of) practices, which is why denouncing it as a whole in this article is severely inappropriate and biased. Studies such as one published in the journal Counselling and Psychotherapy Research found psychotherapy patients with an improvement in their symptoms and quality of life following NLP treatment, noticeably different from the control group. There is a limited amount of research done on NLP compared to established therapies- therefore it is not accurate to claim it is completely ineffective. Changing the way that people think about things is inevitably going to work for some, even from the standpoint of PLACEBO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.24.98.144 ( talk) 14:12, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
HeartfeltRationalism ( talk) 15:43, 16 December 2021 (UTC)Which is why I included a study in the above comment... I have also now added an edit request with multiple credible references
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"There is no scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates"(subtract) (add into the introduction) "NLP is an umbrella term for hundreds of techniques and practices. Some of which, such as reframing- otherwise called 'cognitive reappraisal' (The reframing of stimuli and experiences) are also used in [ behavioral therapy|Cognitive Behavioral Therapy] (CBT). "Cognitive reappraisal, is one powerful way of skillfully nudging your emotions back toward baseline" [1] Cognitive reappraisal has been found "one of the most effective strategies for emotion regulation. [2]. Another proven technique often used by NLP practitioners is Anchoring. The anchoring effect is one of the most robust cognitive heuristics. [3]
Studies such as one published in the journal Counselling and Psychotherapy Research found psychotherapy patients with an improvement in their symptoms and quality of life following NLP treatment, noticeably different from the control group. There is a limited amount of research done on NLP compared to established therapies- therefore it is not accurate to claim it is completely ineffective, especially considering its breath of different techniques.
HeartfeltRationalism ( talk) 15:35, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
References
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
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15:37, 16 December 2021 (UTC)“A few useful ideas” you mean repeatedly proven practical techniques used in respected therapies such as CBT? (Also a collection of various concepts).. Therapies are rarely ever one concept or science, they are often interwoven and take contribution from other fields HeartfeltRationalism ( talk) 12:13, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
There is literally a mountain of academic research on NLP which supports the ethos and practice of NLP, it is a threat to psychology, psychiatry and other bodies of knowledge so be aware of who is writing and adding this information WilCC ( talk) 23:56, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
A more complete and appropriate quote than: 'A systematic review of experimental studies by Sturt et al (2012) concluded that "there is little evidence that NLP interventions improve health-related outcomes."[53]' is: 'A systematic review of experimental studies by Sturt et al (2012) concluded that "there is little evidence that NLP interventions improve health-related outcomes. This conclusion reflects the limited quantity and quality of NLP research, rather than robust evidence of no effect."'
There is much more to say about this particular treatment of "NLP" -- I have concluded from above that to continue would be like "pissing into the wind." I expect more "None of this can be used for improving the article. This is not a forum. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:58, 25 September 2022 (UTC)" response. The Sturt et al (2012) [53] reference [1] is clearly a more objective assessment. 47.14.164.55 ( talk) 16:13, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Bovbjerg's secular critique of NLP is echoed in the conservative Christian perspective of the New Age as represented by Jeremiah (1995)[107] who argues, "The 'transformation' recommended by the founders and leaders of these business seminars [such as NLP] has spiritual implications that a non-Christian or new believer may not recognise. The belief that human beings can change themselves by calling upon the power (or god) within or their own infinite human potential is a contradiction of the Christian view. The Bible says man is a sinner and is saved by God's grace alone.[citation needed] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:AD9D:B700:8855:9BBF:D04:69AB ( talk) 03:27, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I almost split a gut when I read the lead paragraph of this article claiming, wiithout qualification, that NLP is pseudoscience. Well, I know better than to battle the religious ultra rationalists on Wikipedia so all I will do is say that Richard Bandler bragged that he could commit murder with an eye witness and get off using NLP on a jury then [redacted - serious BLP violation]. Pseudoscience works! Ronald Joe Record ( talk) 03:48, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I’m a humanist, so you’re so wide of the mark it’s hilarious. Of course it’s a pseudoscience. Demonstrate it’s a science by the same standard as physics, biology, chemistry, etc. if you’re so sure. Ambitus ( talk) 08:30, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
backing with scientific peer reviewed worktoo. With several meta-analyses in favor of it. Only, it turned out their methodology was faulty, as is common with science done by pseudoscience proponents. Unless that paper has gained traction and you can supply non-NLP sources agreeing with it, we have more than enough other sources to override that one.
Having a degree in Behavioral Psychology as well as having attended NLP practitioner trainings; I know that in fact, NLP trainings and practitioners use behavioral observation similar to that used in Behavioral Psychological. Yet, on a subtler or finer level of physiological observation.
In behavioral psychology, observations are made regarding a target behavior that is going to be increased or decreased using positive or negative reinforcement patterns or schedules of reinforcement. The important point being, that these behaviors are defined in a way that two observers can agree on the target behavior using objective, sensory terms, of physical behavior.
A trained NLP Practitioner uses observation of physiology, and two observers use those physical observations, and can agree upon those observations in doing change work.
In NLP this is called “state.” In behavioral psychology this is called “desired behavior.”
One difference between Behavioral Psychology and Neuro Linguistic Programming, is that Behavioral Psychology only defines and observes external physical behavior. Where NLP observes a persons external physiology(state), as well as considers a persons internal experience or their subjective experience, through the own persons feedback.
If someone is in a state of joy, their physiology traits will be quite different than when observed in a state of panic or fear.
So because, objective, sensory observation is used in NLP. And these observations can be agreed upon using sensory terms between two observers; NLP is science based, not a pseudoscience, period.
The same stimulus response mechanisms taught in Behavioral psychology using a Skinner Box, are also used in NLP, but on a subtler level of peoples internal processes.
Since internal processes are subjective, NLP let’s the individuals subjectivity be interpreted and codified by the individual, using sub-modalities, such as the location of a feeling, the temperature or size of a feeling. NLP Isn’t a philosophy as such; but an experiential process. And it’s basic practices have roots in observation of physiological traits and uses a person’s physiology as a determinant, to apply treatment. Also, it uses physiological observation to determine successful outcomes or target states.
Indieside ( talk) 17:40, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
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Please un-italicize "pseudoscience" in "...it has been called a pseudoscience." toward the end of the lead. It's just a normal word with no particular emphasis (which should be marked up as such rather than bare italics anyway) used while reading. Nothing in MOS:IT supports the use of italics here. Thanks, 35.139.154.158 ( talk) 20:42, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
The contribution of NLP to personal development industry has been understated in this article. Tony Robbins acknowledges Bandler and grinder's NLP in every seminar and acknowledged it as a major influence on him personally.
'The second most influential mentor in my life came to me when I was in my 20s. I met a man named John Grinder, who was the founder of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) — a communication approach that focuses on adapting a person’s neurological processes and behavioral patterns to achieve specific goals. John introduced me to the concept of modeling. He taught me that if you want to accelerate the tempo of mastery of any subject, you must find someone who is getting the results you want, study them, and do the same thing. Because “success leaves clues.” This has become the No. 1 secret in my life for anything. This is what I do, the curating of success and results, and it’s really the magic behind any great mentorship.' -
https://www.tonyrobbins.com/mind-meaning/the-mentors-who-coached-me/
See also https://www.businessinsider.com/tony-robbins-money-book-carl-icahn-ray-dalio-2014-11 124.150.139.62 ( talk) 15:17, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
While informative and no doubt well-researched, there seems to be a bias on the part of the author toward the pseudoscientific aspect of NLP, as this shows up several times in the article, both in its own section and in the introduction. Perhaps a little more neutrality is in order, lest we run the risk of a polemic in the guise of an objective treatment. 2601:643:4000:9070:3093:E204:A07A:21AD ( talk) 19:25, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
This section contains several citations marked as permanent dead links and I can't find record of a lawsuit called Not Ltd. v. Unlimited Ltd., et al.. There's another lawsuit, Bandler v. Hall, that I could find online that seems to tell a slightly different story about the dispute that took place between Bandler and Grinder in or around 1981. I think this section is in need of a cleanup. Does anyone here have any decent sources to offer on that topic? Or would most of these sources be offline? The Wikipedia Library is returning nothing useful from my search. 〜 Askarion ✉ 23:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I think you should replace the 'not to be confused with Natural language programming' to the NLP disambiguation page. 124.150.139.62 ( talk) 14:54, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
While NLP not been widely embraced by psychologists, it has been popular on the motivational and sales speaking circuit. This is yet covered in the current article. The following text book on persuasion could serve as a starting reference: Gass, R. H., & Seiter, J. S. (2022). Persuasion: Social influence and compliance gaining. Routledge. —- Notgain ( talk) 11:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
May I suggest that the page is changed from semi protection to pending changes so that edits can be made by unregistered or new users? This page has been semi protected for a long time and those engaged in sockpuppetry or disrupted editing have likely moved on. 124.150.139.36 ( talk) 03:43, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
As a first-time wikipedia contributor, this article struck me as so incredibly biased that I had to create an account to comment on it.
"Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a pseudoscientific approach to communication"
Why is it starting off like this right off the bat? It's starting out as opinion on NLP instead of just explaining what it is to the reader.
"NLP asserts that there is a connection between neurological processes, language and acquired behavioral patterns, and that these can be changed to achieve specific goals in life. According to Bandler and Grinder, NLP can treat problems such as phobias, depression, tic disorders, psychosomatic illnesses, near-sightedness, allergy, the common cold, and learning disorders, often in a single session. They also claim that NLP can "model" the skills of exceptional people, allowing anyone to acquire them."
These are distinct claims. Is there a connection between neurological processes, language, and behavioral patterns? Are there any scientists claiming there isn't one? This seems to me a very uncontroversial claim. The claim that NLP can treat all sorts of disorders including the common cold and allow you to acquire exceptional skills is a much, much stronger claim. The juxtaposition here is between an extremely weak and uncontroversial/plausible claim to start with, followed up by a ludicrously strong claim and the article is saying that this is what NLP is. Well as a reader of this article I would like to know more about the first claim. Is there any diversity in the field of NLP where some of it is making weaker, more plausible claims that are less pseudoscientific?
It seems to me that the article is so biased that it wants to say no, there isn't, never was, and never could be any version of NLP which is not pseudoscience and therefore should be dismissed. That's fine if that's your opinion, but that is not why I go to Wikipedia, to inform myself about a subject and as a starting point to explore it. I'm not interested in your opinion, I'm interested in an unbiased description of the subject that doesn't start right in the very first sentence expressing a dismissive attitude.
"There is no scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates, and it has been called a pseudoscience.[11][12][13] Scientific reviews have shown that NLP is based on outdated metaphors of the brain's inner workings that are inconsistent with current neurological theory, and that NLP contains numerous factual errors.[10][14] Reviews also found that research that favored NLP contained significant methodological flaws, and that there were three times as many studies of a much higher quality that failed to reproduce the claims made by Bandler, Grinder, and other NLP practitioners.[12][1"
"No scientific evidence" is an absolute claim and seems very implausible. Really, there is not one shred of evidence anywhere that there is a connection between neurological processes, language, and behavioral patterns? Doesn't that describe the entire field of psychology? The principle of charity states that even if your opponent is not making the best possible argument for their claim, it is your job as someone with intellectual integrity to create the most plausible version of their claim, and construct the strongest possible argument for it (even if that is not the one they themselves are making). I believe this is a requirement for a neutral point of view, which is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia that any neutral observer would agree, this article is violating.
Instead of the article starting with the perspective that we should find everything wrong with NLP and ensure that the reader knows everything that is wrong about it, why not start with the perspective that yes, there may be parts of it - even large parts - which are pseudoscientific, but coming from a neutral point of view, these are some aspects of it which are more plausible and could mesh with a commonly held scientific worldview?
I am not an expert on NLP and I cannot go into detail about scientific studies for and against. But I think that at the very least, the introduction to this article could set a tone which is less biased and more designed to be informative rather than prescribe a judgement on the topic at hand. Mhugman99 ( talk) 18:09, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
replace "pseudoscientific" with "controversial"Read WP:FRINGE and WP:FALSEBALANCE. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 06:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Its not fully embraced by mainstream psychology and not wholly rejected as a pseudoscience either.
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Can you change the following text: "There is no scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates and it has been discredited as a pseudoscience by experts" TO "There is some scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates, (see: http://www.nlp.de/cgi-bin/research/nlp-rdb.cgi) and expert psychologists are ambivalent in their assessment of NLP as they are of many modalities"
My reasons for asking for this is I am a professional chartered psychologist who has been practicing in the UK and using NLP for 25 years. I have written my own academic text on NLP: (The theory and practice of NLP coaching, 2013, (Sage) and numerous academic articles which can be viewed by going to the above web link. Wake et al (2013) have also produced a responsible academic text demonstrating the evidence base for NLP in the context of psychotherapy. Wake, L., Gray, R. M and Bourke, F. S. (2013). The Clinical Effectiveness of Neuro-linguistic Programming. A critical appraisal. Ed. London and New York: Routledge. NLP has in fact produced both RCT's and Meta-analysis, which can be accessed at the above web link and it is simply not true to say there is no scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates, there are. Also it is not true that NLP has been discredited by experts. Some psychologists have written in an unfavourable way concerning NLP, but NLP has not been discredited scientifically. Little evidence for, is very different from evidence against. Thank you and kind regards. Dr Bruce Grimley Brucegrimley ( talk) 20:25, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
OK, I understand. But here are 2 RCT's related to NLP. Surely even 2 are enough to suggest the wording "No scientific evidence" is wrong. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272743688_Raising_maths_attainment_through_enhanced_pedagogy_and_communication_Results_from_a_'teacher-level'_randomised_controlled_trial_An_NLP_related_study
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0091217417703285?journalCode=ijpb
Thank you. Brucegrimley ( talk) 21:05, 17 October 2018 (UTC)-- Brucegrimley ( talk) 21:05, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
I know this will probably get deleted because I don't sign in but whatever. Source 10 (the social work handbook) seems to be primarily based on source 11 (not a good look). Source 11 (Sharpley, 1987, p. 103-107) summarises other studies (which themselves tend to have mixed or inconclusive results) attempting to disprove PRS. Now I don't have any stake in this and personally I don't think very highly of the whole PRS categorisation thing (in case anyone is unfamiliar this involves categorising people as 'visual' 'auditory' or 'kinesthetic') but this is not NLP in it's entirety. Sharpley's - well it's not really a meta analysis - is poorly written; indeed the fact that so many of the studies criticising NLP involve self-reporting is poor scholarship in on the part of the authors summarised. The pseudoscience claim needs to be backed up by much better evidence or changed. Finally, simply writing 'experts' as the origin of the claim is a transparent appeal to authority - by the way Sharpley was employed by the faculty of Education at Monash at the time - not exactly an expert. Now I'm not out to defend NLP, it is simply that this article does itself a disservice by labeling NLP pseudoscience on the strength of what is essentially one piece of very mediocre evidence. I'm just a guy who got vaguely interested in hypnotism after hearing Derren Brown on Sam Harris' podcast (I'm not really a fan though I can't stand the cult that seems to have sprung up around him) and ended up here. If this isn't changed or better supported then you will just get more people like me arriving on this page and thinking "Huh? This looks like a hit-piece" - because right now that's what it looks like. 144.48.37.100 ( talk) 10:01, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia's standard for articles is a neutral point of view. The author, unfortunately, establishes a bias against neuro-linguistic programming from the second sentence. Of all the photos available of Bandler, the most unflattering was chosen. I am not a proponent of NLP, I am just beginning my research of the subject. However, I suggest that the article be deleted until someone without clear bias can appropriately address the topic. Kestreljc ( talk) 13:12, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Disambiguation "Not to be confused with Erhard Seminars Training (EST)." Why is this even here? There are no connections between the subject matters other than two (different) three letter abbreviations. Neither topic has shared roots documented anywhere on Wikipedia beyond links with the 'Human Potential Movement'. Not to be confused with British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) would be equally inappropriate despite both topics being concerned with communication. Please consider removing this disambiguation as it serves no useful purpose. 92.19.38.175 ( talk) 08:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC) steve
Disambiguation "Not to be confused with Erhard Seminars Training (EST)." Why is this even here? There are no connections between the subject matters other than two (different) three letter abbreviations. Neither topic has shared roots documented anywhere on Wikipedia beyond links with the 'Human Potential Movement'. Not to be confused with British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) would be equally inappropriate despite both topics being concerned with communication. Please consider removing this disambiguation as it serves no useful purpose. 92.19.38.175 ( talk) 08:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC) steve
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Citation number 5 is supposed to provide a source for the statement that NLP can treat near-sightedness, but does no such thjng. Instead, it references a creator of NLP who is discussing how he used HYPNOTHERAPY - NOT neuro-linguistic programming- to treat nearsightedness. NLP therapy and hypnotherapy are not the same practice. 69.146.189.251 ( talk) 18:09, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Just pointing out that a citation for describing something as a pseudoscience is a little odd.
By definition, a pseudoscience has no proof.
Anyone else care to comment? Ambitus ( talk) 13:29, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
I’ve reverted an edit removing pseudoscience, which is described as being “opinionated”. It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of fact. Many other articles relating to pseudoscience have it stated in the lead, this should be no different. Ambitus ( talk) 07:27, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Hah hah Roxy! I reverted the edit to your previous edit, so I guess that’s why your name shows up :) Ambitus ( talk) 08:05, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
It was only once in the lead Ambitus ( talk) 13:52, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
It was only once in the lead Ambitus ( talk) 13:52, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
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CHANGE UNDER CRITICISM AND EFFICACY Neurolinguistic programming is also known as neurolinguistic psychotherapy. A plethora of studies confirms the effectiveness of NLP; however, scepticism remains evident. Neurolinguistic programming psychotherapy(NLPt) aims to determine patient’s patterns and change their response’s to stimuli in order to help them regulate their environment and themselves more effectively. NLPt attempts to achieve goals, improve relationships, eliminate fears, build self-image and worth, and for the patient to do their best. NLPt originated as NLP in the 1970s. NLPt is derived from neurobiological, systematic and metatheoretical foundations. NLPt deducts from NLP’s techniques. There is evidence of NLPt helping in some cases, but also there is evidence where NLPt was not beneficial. NLPt’s use for patients with psychological challenges and low perceived quality of life was effective as an intervention, improving both of these deficits significantly. Among claustrophobic patients who had to undergo MRI, NLPt was effective in decreasing the need for general anaesthesia and therefore it can be concluded as an effective intervention for this group. NLPt was shown to impact the allergic immune function in birch pollen allergic humans and these patients experienced significant improvement in all psychological symptoms.<references/Zaharia, Cătălin, et al. “EVIDENCE-BASED NEURO LINGUISTIC PSYCHOTHERAPY: A META-ANALYSIS.” Psychiatria Danubina, vol. 27, no. 4, 2015, pp. 355–363.> NLPt administered to those with anxiety for public speaking as a single session treatment for phobias, in comparison to an intervention of self-control desensitization for the same amount of time or a waiting-list control condition (other psychotherapeutic interventions), was less efficient in decreasing anxiety. Additionally, the seemingly rapid effectiveness of NLP may have been a product of changes that may have occurred without the interventions provided, therefore the efficacy of NLPt decreasing different social and/or psychological problems remains unclear. There is evidence to support the positive effects of NLPt however further study is necessary to corroborate such a claim due to small sample sizes of previous studies.<references/Sturt, Jackie, et al. “Neurolinguistic Programming: a Systematic Review of the Effects on Health Outcomes.” British Journal of General Practice, vol. 62, no. 604, 2012, doi:10.3399/bjgp12x658287.> NLP suffers seven critical challenges, which results scepticism in its efficacy. They are as followed: NLP’s pragmatic, anti-theoretical stance, its eclecticism and lack of theoretical coherence, its weak linkage to contemporary academic work in relevant fields, the belief that there is research evidence refuting NLP, an unclear evidence base for NLP and a lack of evaluation of its practices, ethical concerns about the way NLP is used in practice, and a lack of reflexive critique of NLP’s discourse and social practices. NLP’s pragmatic, anti-theoretical stance has been a criticism of it because the founders of NLP held an explicitly anti-theoretical, pragmatic stance, however there are theoretical skills, classroom management, teaching design that are integral to NLP. For example, the core language model of NLP which is called the meta-model is made up of a set of verbal patterns with corresponding forms of question that evoke exploration of learners’ mental constructs. This meta-model provides a framework that enables the intervener to inquire the patient effectively. In addition, NLP takes into account non-verbal communication, which can improve the intervener’s observations of the patient. NLP’s eclecticism and lack of theoretical coherence is due to its contents and practices drawing upon diverse fields such as behavioural psychology, cybernetics, cognitive psychology, the Palo Alto school of brief therapy, and Chomsky’s transformational linguistics. NLP’s weak linkage to contemporary academic work in relevant fields is due to a need for more explicit evidence. There is a lack of academic research of NLP, it is lacking empirical support. It has been concerned that NLP may be manipulative, therefore warrants ethical concerns. <references/ Tosey, Paul, and Jane Mathison. “Neuro‐Linguistic Programming as an Innovation in Education and Teaching.” Innovations in Education and Teaching International, vol. 47, no. 3, 2010, pp. 317–326., doi:10.1080/14703297.2010.498183.> 99.25.73.78 ( talk) 01:19, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
Under the Psychotherapeutic subheading of "Applications" subsection, Stephen Briers was quoted saying "NLP's reframe casts us into the role of a widower avoiding the pain of grief by leap-frogging into a rebound relationship with a younger woman, never pausing to say a proper goodbye to his dead wife." While a colorful and vivid metaphor, it's too sensational and provocative, not worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedic article. It's also unnecessary within the larger, more substantive quotes criticizing "the NLP maxim—a presupposition in NLP jargon—'there is no failure, only feedback'". This is mae clear in the abstract without referencing such an unseemly metaphor. Cuvtixo ( talk) 17:43, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
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As a practitioner of NLP for 20 years, with many successful client change efforts, I do not dispute the research cited but I do dispute the use of "pseudoscience". NLP has never claimed to be a science but rather a "process-driven" approach to change. Thus, I request the following change of the first sentence: Neuro-linguistic programming is a process-driven approach to change through communication, personal development, and psychotherapy created by Richard Bandler and John Grinder in California, United States, in the 1970s. 98.114.91.21 ( talk) 12:25, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-01-29-mn-26470-story.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jojothedogboy ( talk • contribs) 19:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Frogs into princes has been cited over 1500 times on Google scholar and sold more than [ https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03069885.2019.1622075 270,000 copies]. The Structure of Magic as over 1300 cites. Patterns of the hypnotic techniques of Milton H. Erickson 1&2 has over 1000 cites combined. We've got an article on Psychology Gone Wrong: The Dark Sides of Science and Therapy - it only has 13 citations which criticises some of these books. There is a quote from Weitzenhoffer which criticises Patterns 1&2 but there is no context. Similarly the quote attributed to Stollznow about the book "Frogs into princes" also has no context and completely dismisses it as pseudoscience without further discussion. A quick scan of the 1500 citations shows that most of the discussion of the book takes it seriously. There are many academic articles and reputable authors who at least took it seriously at some point. Quotes of language patterns that Bandler and Grinder extracted from Milton Erickson's video transcripts would give context. You can use some short video or audio snippets under fair use as well. In terms of changes, I think you should some quotes and perhaps audio or video from Bandler and/or Grinder demonstrating the use of language patterns they claim to have extracted (modeled) from Milton Erickson, Virginia Satir, and/or Fritz Perls. -- Croech ( talk) 03:32, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
There was a special issue on 'NLP Coaching' in last year's International Coaching Psychology Review Volume 14 No. 1. These articles provide historical context from the point of view of psychology and coaching practitioners on the development of the personal and executive coaching industries currently missing from this article. -- Croech ( talk) 05:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
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There has been extensive recent testing of NLO for successful treatment of PTSD in the military which hasn’t been represented here. For further information please see: http://www.researchandrecognition.org/pdf/Traumatology.pdf 203.118.175.156 ( talk) 23:12, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
Bovbjerg's secular critique of NLP is echoed in the conservative Christian perspective of the New Age as represented by Jeremiah (1995)[116] who argues that, "[t]he 'transformation' recommended by the founders and leaders of these business seminars [such as NLP] has spiritual implications that a non-Christian or new believer may not recognise. The belief that human beings can change themselves by calling upon the power (or god) within or their own infinite human potential is a contradiction of the Christian view. The Bible says man is a sinner and is saved by God's grace alone.
Its not clear to me why this paragraph is present in this article except to promote Christianity given that it does not specifically critique NLP. It could just as easily be applied to psychology, mindfulness, or life coaching. I could quote a number of other non-Christian religious traditions that are complementary or contradictory to NLP or this perspective.
There should be a subsection on submodalities [1]. This is the idea that your senses are not binary, but rather exist on a spectrum. Senses generally fall into four categories: Visual (sight, images, spatial), Auditory (sound, voice), Kinesthetic (propreceptive, somatic), and Olfactory/Gustatory (taste, smell).
There should be subsections for popular NLP models. A few popular models include:
Dennisconsorte ( talk) 10:22, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
Missing from the NLP introductory paragraphs is mention of the decades old and ongoing controversy surrounding "Comparative effectiveness of paraprofessional and professional helpers".
Just as a cheap generic drug can eliminate highly profitable pharmaceutical product lines, NLP has the potential to undermine various lucrative psychological business (as well as career) models. Hence, critical reviews of NLP done by those with financial or other conflicts of interest must be appropriately scrutinized. That scrutiny also does not seem to have been applied to this Wikipedia article.
Properly performed studies comparing internal psychological modification techniques must, at least initially, be correlational. The essential question is "has the individual's life improved" after application of the technique, and although the answer may be nuanced, it will be fundamentally binary. None of the sited studies in the introduction appear to cover the breadth of NLP and meet the correlational (observational and non-experimental) requirement. In an absence of properly performed studies by unconflicted researchers, the general claim that NPL is pseudoscience is likely a simple attempt to discredit the technique and bias the reader*, and thus inappropriate here on Wikipedia.
* Caveat emptor of course always applies when seeking help in exchange for money, and this must of course be applied both to NLP practitioners as well as the more widely recognized professionals who charge for services. But just as any practitioner in any profession may not posess the skills or ethics needed for a positive result, who practices, and for what purpose, cannot be used to judge the overall effectiveness of the techniques in question.
Duanev ( talk) 22:21, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
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NLP isn't pseudoscientific; it has a good research base proving both its efficacy as well as validity 1.186.180.95 ( talk) 02:27, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
NLP is an umbrella term for many ( hundreds of) practices, which is why denouncing it as a whole in this article is severely inappropriate and biased. Studies such as one published in the journal Counselling and Psychotherapy Research found psychotherapy patients with an improvement in their symptoms and quality of life following NLP treatment, noticeably different from the control group. There is a limited amount of research done on NLP compared to established therapies- therefore it is not accurate to claim it is completely ineffective. Changing the way that people think about things is inevitably going to work for some, even from the standpoint of PLACEBO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.24.98.144 ( talk) 14:12, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
HeartfeltRationalism ( talk) 15:43, 16 December 2021 (UTC)Which is why I included a study in the above comment... I have also now added an edit request with multiple credible references
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"There is no scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates"(subtract) (add into the introduction) "NLP is an umbrella term for hundreds of techniques and practices. Some of which, such as reframing- otherwise called 'cognitive reappraisal' (The reframing of stimuli and experiences) are also used in [ behavioral therapy|Cognitive Behavioral Therapy] (CBT). "Cognitive reappraisal, is one powerful way of skillfully nudging your emotions back toward baseline" [1] Cognitive reappraisal has been found "one of the most effective strategies for emotion regulation. [2]. Another proven technique often used by NLP practitioners is Anchoring. The anchoring effect is one of the most robust cognitive heuristics. [3]
Studies such as one published in the journal Counselling and Psychotherapy Research found psychotherapy patients with an improvement in their symptoms and quality of life following NLP treatment, noticeably different from the control group. There is a limited amount of research done on NLP compared to established therapies- therefore it is not accurate to claim it is completely ineffective, especially considering its breath of different techniques.
HeartfeltRationalism ( talk) 15:35, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
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15:37, 16 December 2021 (UTC)“A few useful ideas” you mean repeatedly proven practical techniques used in respected therapies such as CBT? (Also a collection of various concepts).. Therapies are rarely ever one concept or science, they are often interwoven and take contribution from other fields HeartfeltRationalism ( talk) 12:13, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
There is literally a mountain of academic research on NLP which supports the ethos and practice of NLP, it is a threat to psychology, psychiatry and other bodies of knowledge so be aware of who is writing and adding this information WilCC ( talk) 23:56, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
A more complete and appropriate quote than: 'A systematic review of experimental studies by Sturt et al (2012) concluded that "there is little evidence that NLP interventions improve health-related outcomes."[53]' is: 'A systematic review of experimental studies by Sturt et al (2012) concluded that "there is little evidence that NLP interventions improve health-related outcomes. This conclusion reflects the limited quantity and quality of NLP research, rather than robust evidence of no effect."'
There is much more to say about this particular treatment of "NLP" -- I have concluded from above that to continue would be like "pissing into the wind." I expect more "None of this can be used for improving the article. This is not a forum. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:58, 25 September 2022 (UTC)" response. The Sturt et al (2012) [53] reference [1] is clearly a more objective assessment. 47.14.164.55 ( talk) 16:13, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Bovbjerg's secular critique of NLP is echoed in the conservative Christian perspective of the New Age as represented by Jeremiah (1995)[107] who argues, "The 'transformation' recommended by the founders and leaders of these business seminars [such as NLP] has spiritual implications that a non-Christian or new believer may not recognise. The belief that human beings can change themselves by calling upon the power (or god) within or their own infinite human potential is a contradiction of the Christian view. The Bible says man is a sinner and is saved by God's grace alone.[citation needed] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:AD9D:B700:8855:9BBF:D04:69AB ( talk) 03:27, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I almost split a gut when I read the lead paragraph of this article claiming, wiithout qualification, that NLP is pseudoscience. Well, I know better than to battle the religious ultra rationalists on Wikipedia so all I will do is say that Richard Bandler bragged that he could commit murder with an eye witness and get off using NLP on a jury then [redacted - serious BLP violation]. Pseudoscience works! Ronald Joe Record ( talk) 03:48, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I’m a humanist, so you’re so wide of the mark it’s hilarious. Of course it’s a pseudoscience. Demonstrate it’s a science by the same standard as physics, biology, chemistry, etc. if you’re so sure. Ambitus ( talk) 08:30, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
backing with scientific peer reviewed worktoo. With several meta-analyses in favor of it. Only, it turned out their methodology was faulty, as is common with science done by pseudoscience proponents. Unless that paper has gained traction and you can supply non-NLP sources agreeing with it, we have more than enough other sources to override that one.
Having a degree in Behavioral Psychology as well as having attended NLP practitioner trainings; I know that in fact, NLP trainings and practitioners use behavioral observation similar to that used in Behavioral Psychological. Yet, on a subtler or finer level of physiological observation.
In behavioral psychology, observations are made regarding a target behavior that is going to be increased or decreased using positive or negative reinforcement patterns or schedules of reinforcement. The important point being, that these behaviors are defined in a way that two observers can agree on the target behavior using objective, sensory terms, of physical behavior.
A trained NLP Practitioner uses observation of physiology, and two observers use those physical observations, and can agree upon those observations in doing change work.
In NLP this is called “state.” In behavioral psychology this is called “desired behavior.”
One difference between Behavioral Psychology and Neuro Linguistic Programming, is that Behavioral Psychology only defines and observes external physical behavior. Where NLP observes a persons external physiology(state), as well as considers a persons internal experience or their subjective experience, through the own persons feedback.
If someone is in a state of joy, their physiology traits will be quite different than when observed in a state of panic or fear.
So because, objective, sensory observation is used in NLP. And these observations can be agreed upon using sensory terms between two observers; NLP is science based, not a pseudoscience, period.
The same stimulus response mechanisms taught in Behavioral psychology using a Skinner Box, are also used in NLP, but on a subtler level of peoples internal processes.
Since internal processes are subjective, NLP let’s the individuals subjectivity be interpreted and codified by the individual, using sub-modalities, such as the location of a feeling, the temperature or size of a feeling. NLP Isn’t a philosophy as such; but an experiential process. And it’s basic practices have roots in observation of physiological traits and uses a person’s physiology as a determinant, to apply treatment. Also, it uses physiological observation to determine successful outcomes or target states.
Indieside ( talk) 17:40, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
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Please un-italicize "pseudoscience" in "...it has been called a pseudoscience." toward the end of the lead. It's just a normal word with no particular emphasis (which should be marked up as such rather than bare italics anyway) used while reading. Nothing in MOS:IT supports the use of italics here. Thanks, 35.139.154.158 ( talk) 20:42, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
The contribution of NLP to personal development industry has been understated in this article. Tony Robbins acknowledges Bandler and grinder's NLP in every seminar and acknowledged it as a major influence on him personally.
'The second most influential mentor in my life came to me when I was in my 20s. I met a man named John Grinder, who was the founder of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) — a communication approach that focuses on adapting a person’s neurological processes and behavioral patterns to achieve specific goals. John introduced me to the concept of modeling. He taught me that if you want to accelerate the tempo of mastery of any subject, you must find someone who is getting the results you want, study them, and do the same thing. Because “success leaves clues.” This has become the No. 1 secret in my life for anything. This is what I do, the curating of success and results, and it’s really the magic behind any great mentorship.' -
https://www.tonyrobbins.com/mind-meaning/the-mentors-who-coached-me/
See also https://www.businessinsider.com/tony-robbins-money-book-carl-icahn-ray-dalio-2014-11 124.150.139.62 ( talk) 15:17, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
While informative and no doubt well-researched, there seems to be a bias on the part of the author toward the pseudoscientific aspect of NLP, as this shows up several times in the article, both in its own section and in the introduction. Perhaps a little more neutrality is in order, lest we run the risk of a polemic in the guise of an objective treatment. 2601:643:4000:9070:3093:E204:A07A:21AD ( talk) 19:25, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
This section contains several citations marked as permanent dead links and I can't find record of a lawsuit called Not Ltd. v. Unlimited Ltd., et al.. There's another lawsuit, Bandler v. Hall, that I could find online that seems to tell a slightly different story about the dispute that took place between Bandler and Grinder in or around 1981. I think this section is in need of a cleanup. Does anyone here have any decent sources to offer on that topic? Or would most of these sources be offline? The Wikipedia Library is returning nothing useful from my search. 〜 Askarion ✉ 23:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I think you should replace the 'not to be confused with Natural language programming' to the NLP disambiguation page. 124.150.139.62 ( talk) 14:54, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
While NLP not been widely embraced by psychologists, it has been popular on the motivational and sales speaking circuit. This is yet covered in the current article. The following text book on persuasion could serve as a starting reference: Gass, R. H., & Seiter, J. S. (2022). Persuasion: Social influence and compliance gaining. Routledge. —- Notgain ( talk) 11:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
May I suggest that the page is changed from semi protection to pending changes so that edits can be made by unregistered or new users? This page has been semi protected for a long time and those engaged in sockpuppetry or disrupted editing have likely moved on. 124.150.139.36 ( talk) 03:43, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
As a first-time wikipedia contributor, this article struck me as so incredibly biased that I had to create an account to comment on it.
"Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a pseudoscientific approach to communication"
Why is it starting off like this right off the bat? It's starting out as opinion on NLP instead of just explaining what it is to the reader.
"NLP asserts that there is a connection between neurological processes, language and acquired behavioral patterns, and that these can be changed to achieve specific goals in life. According to Bandler and Grinder, NLP can treat problems such as phobias, depression, tic disorders, psychosomatic illnesses, near-sightedness, allergy, the common cold, and learning disorders, often in a single session. They also claim that NLP can "model" the skills of exceptional people, allowing anyone to acquire them."
These are distinct claims. Is there a connection between neurological processes, language, and behavioral patterns? Are there any scientists claiming there isn't one? This seems to me a very uncontroversial claim. The claim that NLP can treat all sorts of disorders including the common cold and allow you to acquire exceptional skills is a much, much stronger claim. The juxtaposition here is between an extremely weak and uncontroversial/plausible claim to start with, followed up by a ludicrously strong claim and the article is saying that this is what NLP is. Well as a reader of this article I would like to know more about the first claim. Is there any diversity in the field of NLP where some of it is making weaker, more plausible claims that are less pseudoscientific?
It seems to me that the article is so biased that it wants to say no, there isn't, never was, and never could be any version of NLP which is not pseudoscience and therefore should be dismissed. That's fine if that's your opinion, but that is not why I go to Wikipedia, to inform myself about a subject and as a starting point to explore it. I'm not interested in your opinion, I'm interested in an unbiased description of the subject that doesn't start right in the very first sentence expressing a dismissive attitude.
"There is no scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates, and it has been called a pseudoscience.[11][12][13] Scientific reviews have shown that NLP is based on outdated metaphors of the brain's inner workings that are inconsistent with current neurological theory, and that NLP contains numerous factual errors.[10][14] Reviews also found that research that favored NLP contained significant methodological flaws, and that there were three times as many studies of a much higher quality that failed to reproduce the claims made by Bandler, Grinder, and other NLP practitioners.[12][1"
"No scientific evidence" is an absolute claim and seems very implausible. Really, there is not one shred of evidence anywhere that there is a connection between neurological processes, language, and behavioral patterns? Doesn't that describe the entire field of psychology? The principle of charity states that even if your opponent is not making the best possible argument for their claim, it is your job as someone with intellectual integrity to create the most plausible version of their claim, and construct the strongest possible argument for it (even if that is not the one they themselves are making). I believe this is a requirement for a neutral point of view, which is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia that any neutral observer would agree, this article is violating.
Instead of the article starting with the perspective that we should find everything wrong with NLP and ensure that the reader knows everything that is wrong about it, why not start with the perspective that yes, there may be parts of it - even large parts - which are pseudoscientific, but coming from a neutral point of view, these are some aspects of it which are more plausible and could mesh with a commonly held scientific worldview?
I am not an expert on NLP and I cannot go into detail about scientific studies for and against. But I think that at the very least, the introduction to this article could set a tone which is less biased and more designed to be informative rather than prescribe a judgement on the topic at hand. Mhugman99 ( talk) 18:09, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
replace "pseudoscientific" with "controversial"Read WP:FRINGE and WP:FALSEBALANCE. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 06:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Its not fully embraced by mainstream psychology and not wholly rejected as a pseudoscience either.