![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
This article could use some help right near the top, especially at this key time when Net Neutrality (NN) has been seriously attacked, with regards to how long-standing Net Neutrality has been. And, it should have some discussion of "the right way" to achieve the goals those who want to destroy Net Neutrality desire - without violating Net Neutrality and thereby make it a lot more clear both what's at stake and the avarice of those who want NN ended. I would have just made some minor edits, and added a small paragraph on "the right way", but the article is locked.
We are asked to cite our sources; in this case I am the source. And, I can likely find some others to back me up, if necessary. I describe my credential on this matter herein, and wouldn't mind in a more private setting sharing more with whoever makes decisions about this article.
In the late 1970s, through the middle 1980s, as a technologist, I wrote network protocols (some of which are still in use on the internet) and in 1995 I joined UC Berkeley's Electronics Research Laboratory (their Computer Science department) to lead a team of 43 or so researchers, including as a member of my staff Turing Award winner Jim Gray and led by Professor Michael Stonebraker (now at MIT), who recently also became a Turing Award winner.
In my earlier work, management directed that data packets had to be all handled identically and the only issues were the basics of reliably getting data to where it needed to go. "The network is a utility," I was told. One layer above the PLL - Physical Link Layer of the OSI model - was ONLY to get data where it goes and not make any other decisions as those belong to higher layers. So, the concept of Net Neutrality was present from the beginning or extremely early on - "before the late '70s" is as close as my personal knowledge of that goes. I bet there's someone - if they could only be found - who can pin this down a lot more specifically. My guess would be that the guys who did the IP layer of TCP/IP would know.
In the early 1990s, I worked for an internet connected firm and worked closely with the networking staff and occasionally helped because of my earlier work. I was curious how they'd connected to the Internet and, because our company had it's own private, inter-corporate network, there was talk about our becoming a part of the official internet and people I worked with were responsible for figuring out if we were going to do it. The subject of net-neutrality came up, though I don't recall if that term was used at the time.
It's also very important to note that our firm could do exactly what the anti-Net Neutrality people want to do, in that with our multiple connections to the net, we could bypass congestion points via our internal net and pass the data packets at a more advantageous connection point. This is the RIGHT way to NOT violate Net Neutrality while some traffic gets "preferred service". And, there's NOTHING against the NN rules in this; anyone can have their own private network and join the internet wherever they care to make a connection, and thereby gain a performance advantage. "The Right Way" is that carriers like Comcast can sell this capability to companies while still conforming to Net Neutrality, and indeed, they have. The problem for the oligarchs is that they can't force that business. And THAT is what this current battle is about; If you can slow down or drop packets that are already "on" the internet, then you can force those you wish to pay your blood money. In effect, you're saying that within your corporate borders, YOU, the hardware owner, have domain over what or whose data can or can't pass, or how quickly. (In my view, that is NOT the internet, that's a private network; this is a battle to make the internet private.)
I can also attest that in when I joined UCB in 1995, talk of the net was all abuzz and my team discussed it daily in some way or another. I can't tell you who coined "Net Neutrality" but I can tell you the term was in use by 1995 at Berkeley in Soda Hall.
While I disagree as my first hand experience says it's false, my point isn't to attack the assertion about Tim Wu in the article which states:
"The term was coined by Columbia University media law professor Tim Wu in 2003, as an extension of the longstanding concept of a common carrier, which was used to describe the role of telephone systems."
Rather, I think the way it's written now implies that Net Neutrality came about sometime around 2003 and that's just completely false, and instead it's important the article make assertions about how Net Neutrality has always been a part of the net, and that such an assertion belongs very close to the top because many people only read the first couple of paragraphs of an article, especially a long one. And, also near the top, the article should have a discussion of what the current issue is all about, as I just discussed - forcing people to pay premiums for what is really the standard service.
If whoever controls this article grants, I'll attempt to draft up a competent update to the page - you probably know better than I do how to notify people via this system! (I haven't written a lot for Wikipedia.)
§ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rtroy ( talk • contribs) 04:57, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
"Twenty internet pioneers, including the inventor of the worldwide web, Tim Berners Lee, wrote an open letter to the pertinent House and Senate subcommittees, asking that they urge the FCC to cancel its vote to repeal net neutrality."
I was confused that the letter was published via Tumblr, and all the reporting on it (including the linked source) seems to use it as the only source and doesn't mention any external confirmation. I did find a tweeted link ( archive) on Tim Berners Lee's verified account, so it appears to be legitimate. Should this be included as a source? 2A02:8109:F3F:C51C:5F72:A59A:E835:ABF5 ( talk) 20:19, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Net neutrality has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Just came back to make some overdue edits to the Arguments section, but the article still is protected. See here for my original suggestions:
/info/en/?search=Talk:Net_neutrality#"Arguments_against"_and_unreasonable_length/repetition_of_arguments
In particular, I would request the following specific changes to "Arguments against":
Lastly, a lot of the text in this section is nothing but quotes and, frankly, quite tough to read. Compare with the "Arguments for" section. Would be great if this can get a major overhaul due to the current importance of the topic, instead of staying protected until nobody discusses those issues anymore. 95.168.159.112 ( talk) 01:25, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template.
Upsidedown Keyboard (
talk)
14:30, 23 December 2017 (UTC)I would like to see a section on how Net Neutrality relates to existing QOS capabilities, including WMM. WMM ( Wireless_Multimedia_Extensions) is an 802.11e standard to prioritize video and audio traffic. In my experience I have had to disable WMM on my wifi routers because video traffic was given priority and impacted other operations like http connection handshake. It may seem like a good idea to prioritize video so Netflix does not get interrupted. But video is high bandwidth, and a more responsive system might use shortest job first, therefore lowering priority of video streams. I'm suggesting it is helpful to have prioritization and not treat all content as equal. The devil is in the details here, and how to implement "equal" can make a big difference in the system behavior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericjster ( talk • contribs) 22:50, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
Following my suggestions above, I just removed this section from the "Arguments against". Until there is at least one source legitimately arguing this point, this should not be in the article. As I already said, the linked article explicitly mentions that bandwidth is not an issue at all, ironically, and the "series of tubes" argument is noteworthy only because nobody took it seriously, which is clearly laid out in the article about it. -- 109.45.2.123 ( talk) 10:35, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
If I can somehow convince Congress to veto this act, what should I do? Chariho 205165 ( talk) 00:16, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
You guys?
I've just learn that the FCC has just repealed Net Neutrality.
Is that bad? Really bad? -- LooneyTunerIan ( talk) 03:36, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Net neutrality/Archive 3. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Net neutrality/Archive 3 at the Reference desk. |
As a reminder Wikipedia cannot host general discussions about the subjects of articles. Consider having those discussions on another site. Instead, advance the development of the Wikipedia article by sharing published reliable sources here presenting different views about how net neutrality either matters or does not matter. There are interesting publications for all sides which this wiki article should summarize and cite.
If anyone sees a discussion being started here, please help by trying to turn the conversation to researching and sharing sources to cite, criticizing the text of the Wikipedia article, or discussing whether the Wikipedia article could do better to give information about whatever discussion topic anyone raises. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:21, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
There was a section for describing the differences by country at the Wikipedia articles "net neutrality" and " net neutrality law". This caused the problem of Wikipedia:Content forking so I cut the section from this article and the other and combined it at Net neutrality by country. Please comment about the split at Talk:Net neutrality by country. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:05, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
This advertisement has been widely circulated in the English speaking world in the last month. The social context is that it is in Portuguese and from Portugal where lack of net neutrality is normal, but many in the English speaking world find this image shocking.
Here is some news coverage around this screenshot: (see better formatted list below
Blue Rasberry
(talk) 13:07, 22 November 2017 (UTC))
r/technology commentators (27 October 2017).
"In Portugal, with no net neutrality, internet providers are starting to split the net into packages. This is the future of the Internet if the FCC gets its way. It's not theory. It's happening already".
Reddit.
Doctorow, Corey (28 October 2017).
"Portuguese non-neutral ISP shows us what our Trumpian internet will look like / Boing Boing". boingboing.net.
Coren, Michael J. (30 October 2017).
"Without net neutrality in Portugal, mobile internet is bundled like a cable package".
Quartz.
Bode, Karl (31 October 2017).
"Portugal Shows The Internet Why Net Neutrality Is Important".
Techdirt.
Price, Rob (21 November 2017).
"If you want to see what America would be like if it ditched net neutrality, just look at Portugal".
Business Insider.
I just posted it to be at the lead because I think this is the most relevant image identified for demonstrating what net neutrality does.
Blue Rasberry
(talk)
19:15, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with Net neutrality. It is a phone plan where you get 10GB a month and can pay for extra unlimited data for certain apps. We have this in America with net neutrality so no it doesn't prevent this. Also, the image has been intentionally modified to remove the part that says it's a phone plan and to fear monger for net neutrality. This is apples and oranges. If you want to discuss possible fears fine but you can't show phone plans as results of not having net neutrality. Ozfer ( talk) 03:22, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Here is the news coverage by date. This confirms that reliable sources report that selling favored access to get data from one web application versus another is a violation of net neutrality. So far as I can tell, US Representative Ro Khanna ( Democrat - California) was the first to use the Meo advertisement as an illustration of a practice which is contrary to net neutrality and offensive to people who support net neutrality. From his Twitter it went to the /r/technology on reddit, then from there Corey Doctorow posted it to Boing Boing, and from there it went everywhere and continues to travel. I say this by checking the dates of posting and not finding anything earlier. If anyone can track any earlier origin or pathway then please share. All of these pages contain the image with the exception of reddit which as usual has only a link and no images. Reddit discussions are not normally a reliable source for wiki, but this did make the top of the front page so it was the most discussed news item in the world on that day. I gave the links to all of these to the Wayback Machine so the Internet Archive has copies of them. It already had most of them anyway. I have a German link and Italian link to mainstream newspapers so I would say that this is an International issue despite the origin of this being United States citizens using a Portuguese advertisement to discuss their own local laws.
Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:07, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Karl.i.biased In the EU, net neutrality falls under the scope of BEREC - Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications [6] [7]. In Portugal, there's also a regulating body, called ANACOM, that follows the guidelines set by BEREC on net neutrality. [8] [9] [10]. I see where you are coming from with this debate, but as I stated above, these kind of data plans exist all around Europe, like in Spain, the UK and also in Romania [11]. In the USA as well. Do I necessarily think it's right to have these kind of plans? No. But these plans are still a far cry from lack of net neutrality since you do not have to pay to have access to specific websites. RetiredDuke ( talk) 16:17, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Edit request withdrawn
Restore this Meo advertisement as an illustration to the top of the article at the second line immediately below the notice on formatting dates:
[[File:+ Smart Net - advertisement offering service packages.png|thumb|right|500px|Advocates for net neutrality have cited [[Internet service provider]] [[MEO (Portugal)|MEO]]'s October 2017 advertisement as an illustration of [[Internet access]] without net neutrality.<ref> This particular image has been the subject of discussion in media including the following: *{{cite web|last1=Khanna|first1=Ro|authorlink=Ro Khanna|title=In Portugal, with no net neutrality, internet providers are starting to split the net into packages|url=https://twitter.com/rokhanna/status/923701871092441088?lang=en|website=@rokhanna|publisher=[[Twitter]]|language=en|date=26 October 2017}} *{{cite web|last1=Doctorow|first1=Corey|authorlink=Corey Doctorow|title=Portuguese non-neutral ISP shows us what our Trumpian internet will look like / Boing Boing|url=https://boingboing.net/2017/10/28/warning-taken-as-suggestion.html|website=[[:d:Q891048|boingboing.net]]|date=28 October 2017}} *{{cite web|last1=Coren|first1=Michael J.|title=Without net neutrality in Portugal, mobile internet is bundled like a cable package|url=https://qz.com/1114690/why-is-net-neutrality-important-look-to-portugal-and-spain-to-understand/|website=[[:d:Q7269379|Quartz]]|date=30 October 2017}} *{{cite web|last1=Wu|first1=Tim|authorlink1=Tim Wu|title=Web has been disappointing lately, I'll admit, but look what it looks like without Net Neutrality (in Portugal)|url=https://twitter.com/superwuster/status/925181150506692608|website=@superwuster|publisher=Twitter|language=en|date=30 October 2017}} *{{cite web|last1=Bode|first1=Karl|title=Portugal Shows The Internet Why Net Neutrality Is Important|url=https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20171030/12364538513/portugal-shows-internet-why-net-neutrality-is-important.shtml|website=[[:d:Q1647664|Techdirt]]|date=31 October 2017}}</ref>]]
References
I recognize that the conversation about this image is not completed, but it has stalled. Normally there is no hurry but this article is at the center of an urgent political discussion right now which is rising and will peak 14 December at the repeal of net neutrality laws in the United States. Three days have passed with a conversation pause and even from the beginning the opposition has declined to respond to the sources and rationales for adding the image which I have posted on the talk page. Perhaps this image can be removed again, or perhaps we edit the citations or captions, but at this point in the discussion, please re-add it to attract more comments. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:25, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
It is used for scare people, have nothing to do with Net neutrality. Is a personalized Internet service, not a surplus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koala Wiki ( talk • contribs) 12:06, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
I'm actually typing this while using MEO ISP. it's my provider. it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with net neutrality. it's misleading and it makes no sense. meo respects net neutrality otherwise I wouldn't be their client for years. they don't block any websites. they don't throttle others. it's really stupid to see this in wikipedia when net neutrality is such a big issue. shame on this shit. I was reading the article and I was like wtf, this is from meo (altice now btw) and I just had to make a comment here on how silly and absurd it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.244.0.157 ( talk • contribs) 06:36, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Noting the discussion here, I'd like to establish a final consensus discussion for using the image or not. Voting begins below. -- Codyorb ( talk) 00:19, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
These prices aren’t for access to the listed websites, they are for unlimited data to the listed websites because Portugal has data caps. Any American should understand this as we pay extra for unlimited data on our cell phones. Data caps do not violate Net Neutrality. Decimation41 ( talk) 06:33, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
I think the image should be removed. It is definitely misleading. It has nothing to do with net neutrality in respect to broadband internet. It was added in a knee-jerk, fear mongering manner and while we sit here and discuss whether to have it or not it remains. If anything, the image should be remained as the talk continues. SouthernJusticeWarrior ( talk) 01:09, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Image should be removed. It's highly controversial and misleading. The claims about it have been proven false by fact checkers. Sy9045 ( talk) 10:44, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
Does this page really have a twitter post as a fact? Meo, like Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, and T-Mobile has data caps. I don’t know if you get 3GB, 6GB, or 50 a month, but you have a limit on their plans. However, if you pay more, (sound familiar smart phone users?) you can have unlimited acces and the listed sites do not count against your data cap. It doesn’t violate Net Neutrality, it’s almost an inevitable solution to it, just like in June of 2010, when our unlimited data plans on our phones vanished just days before the release of FaceTime. Decimation41 ( talk) 06:40, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
This is an English language Wikipedia article.
Screenshot-2017-10-28 MEO - Televisão, Internet, Telefone e Telemóvel
Do we got something like this in English?
Da Vinci Nanjing ( talk) 18:16, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Meo is a phone/smartphone company selling data packages for smartphones - 14 euros a month for 500mb plus free calls within Portugal and 250 minutes of calls outside Portugal - plus for 5 euros a month they can add the 10 gigabytes for some selected sites.
The current caption is " MEO offers to sell additional access to particular data services in this October 2017 advertisement. Consumer advocates for net neutrality have cited this pricing model as an illustration of Internet access without net neutrality." This is misleading - it's a smartphone-exclusive offer of a bundled package of phone calls plus text messages plus data plus extra data.
Note on references - Twitter is NOT a reliable source. What Cory Doctrow writes in boingboing is not a reliable source - and it is contradicted by the fact checking on 9news (which is a reliable source)
ANACOM and BERC say that MEO's practices are legal and within zero-rating policies.
The actual sale page should be linked as a ref
-- Callinus ( talk) 07:35, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
I strongly oppose using MEO "Smart NET" addons as an "example" of no net neutrality. This is clearly disinformation, that started with a politically biased tweet and spread like wildfire in some english language news sources, blogs and social media. The claim that Portugal "has no net neutrality" is blatantly false and was immediately dismissed by fact-checking sites and more careful news sources.
"Smart NET" addons are zero-rating additional packages. While there is some wordwide controversy regarding zero-rating offers, they are common in several EU countries and they do not violate EU neutrality regulations (EU Regulation 2015/2120 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 November 2015). " In accordance with this regulation and guidelines, zero-rating is not prohibited. However, a zero-rating offer where all applications are blocked once the data cap is reached out except for zero-rated applications would infringe the regulation". This is not the case with MEO or any other European zero-rating offer so far. When you reach the data capa on the basic plan, you are still able to use any app or access any website, regardless of having or not these "Smart NET" addons (although you are charged for the extra traffic). Smart NET addons only give you a discount price on some apps' traffic.
Except Portugal does practice net neutrality, and the graphic doesn’t accurately depict what Portugal’s Internet looks like overall. The European Union’s Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications (BEREC) established net neutrality guidelines in 2015. Portugal is a member of the European Union, so its internet providers must comply. The service promoted in the MEO graphic, “Smart Net,” is essentially a menu of add-ons to the company’s standard mobile data service plan. Contrary to the way it’s been presented, it doesn’t limit users’ access to particular apps or sites. Rather, it lays out prepackaged options via which MEO customers can add extra gigabytes of data usage to their mobile phone plans (similar to Vodafone’s “Passes” offerings). MEO defended Smart Net in a statement to the Portuguese news web site Observador (translation by Google): MEO complies with the European regulation on net neutrality and there is no market distortion caused by its commercial offers. The Smart Net offerings correspond only to additional traffic ceilings for certain thematic sets of applications that are no more than the reflection of Portuguese consumer preferences. Portugal’s telecommunications regulatory agency, ANACOM, would not speak to the Smart Net plan in particular but told Observador that “the issue of network neutrality, zero-rating offers and packages with additives are topics under analysis at ANACOM.”
Sure, this doesn't mean that zero-rating addons aren't subject to some controversy and criticism. But they are not a straightforward example of having no net neutrality. Therefore, using MEO example to illustrate the lead or this article is simply wrong and disinformation. JMagalhães ( talk) 16:11, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia's Manual of Style says that lead image thumbnails should be no wider than 300px. The current 500px-wide thumbnail competes with the text for readers' attention and is very distracting. It takes up half the page at normal screen resolution, and should be smaller so that people can choose whether to see the full-size image by opening it in Media Viewer (if you don't know what that is, log out of Wikipedia and click the thumbnail). It is currently shoved in people's faces, which is wrong; people should be given a choice about whether to see this image of an advertisement. Firebrace ( talk) 18:03, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Why not just remove the image from this article, create a section about Meo's data plans at (what is now) MEO (Portugal) article, and move the image over there? JSH-alive/ talk/ cont/ mail 13:25, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
See here: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/portugal-net-neutrality/. I don't understand why this graphic is at the very top of this article, especially because those who cite it tend to use it to justify net neutrality regulations. It's a highly misleading graphic. Portugal already follows net neutrality rules as set by the EU. Further, the net neutrality rules set under the Obama Administration did not ban what MEO is offering. I do not think this misleading graphic should be in this article, especially not at the very top. Sy9045 ( talk) 10:35, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
The editor, Blue Rasberry, originally added this image to the very top of this article because of this reason: "I just posted it to be at the lead because I think this is the most relevant image identified for demonstrating what net neutrality does." In the original caption, the editor writes this: "In this October 2017 advertisement, the Internet service provider MEO offers separate billing for various kinds of online services. Net Neutrality prohibits this sales model." This claim has been proven false by fact checkers like Snopes. The editor also cites a Ro Khanna tweet and various news articles that cite his tweet. Khanna's claims have been debunked by Snopes. As you can see now, the caption to the graphic has been heavily changed. Unless the editor can clearly state why this graphic still belongs at the very top, I will remove the graphic. Sy9045 ( talk) 11:32, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
I believe the US repeal was June 11, and not July 11. 108.160.125.102 ( talk) 02:05, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi I am new to Wikipedia. In the "by country" section this article only includes USA and India. I believe this article should have an added section for Canada as well. Since net neutrality is a heavily talked about issue in Canada, I feel this article can benefit from talking about the Canadian Radio-Television Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) and what they are doing too keep net neutrality in place.-- Hamzas2 ( talk) 19:00, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
At the end of the first introductory paragraph, the last sentence appears thus, "Net neutrality regulations exist only to protect against misuse." Clicking the citation brings up page 326 of "American Governance" Vol. 3 in the "Gale Virtual Reference Library". It's unclear to me whether I'm reading the actual page 326 as the full work is not available without purchase. Nowhere on this page, however, is the claim made that, "Net neutrality regulations exist only to protect against misuse." Furthermore, and putting aside the hardly academically credible sourcing of "Schenectady County Community College" and author Cory Jensen whom know one has ever head of, "misuse" is completely undefined. What constitutes "misuse" and "misuse" by whom and against what? There are certainly many institutions/persons who would argue net neutrality legislation puts incredible power in the hands of government and is therefore subject to "misuse" and abuse of all kinds. Regardless of which side is right, this last sentence of the first paragraph is merely a matter of opinion and, in so far as it is a statement specifically advocating for net neutrality, it is certainly not neutral and does not belong in the introductory paragraph. It belongs only in the "Arguments in favour" section and even there, given the very flimsy nature of the sourcing, highly speculative and broad nature of the claim, and completely unqualified value of "misuse", the sentence seems essentially useless. I plan to remove the sentence in the next two days unless some credible opposing argument can be made. While net neutrality is an area of interest to me, I'm very new to Wikipedia editing and I beg your indulgence. Felacronom ( talk) 20:01, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
The first sentence of the fourth paragraph leads with, "Research suggests that a combination of policy instruments will help realize the range of valued political and economic objectives central to the network neutrality debate," citing to, "Reconciling political and economic goals in the net neutrality debate" by Johannes Bauer and Jonathan Obar. The link leads to a simple abstract as the full document is behind a pay-wall. Isn't there a Wikipedia rule that states one must cite open sources? In any case, this sentence is advocacy in favour of net neutrality. Neither the sentence nor the full cited document are neutral; these people are in fact advocates of net neutrality through government regulation. This sentence and its corresponding citation therefore belong in the "Arguments in favour" section. Of course, it's hard to determine exactly where it belongs without having the full document available for detailed investigation. I plan to move this sentence in two days to the "Arguments in favour" section unless some reasoned argument in opposition surfaces.
The second sentence continues with the introductory phrase, "Combined with strong public opinion...". The only evidence of "...strong public opinion..." offered is a New York Times article, "F.C.C. Approves Net Neutrality Rules, Classifying Broadband Internet Service as a Utility" of February, 2015. The article itself mentions, "..an extraordinary level of political involvement..." in a US political process that claims some 4 million "comments" directed to the FCC on the issue. The article does not specify whether all of those comments were in favour of net neutrality or further provide any insight into how they were characterized, whether they were credible (as in, not from bots), and etc. Considering that there are about 325 million people in the USA, this hardly seems like an example of "strong public opinion" nor does the article itself anywhere mention/demonstrate "strong public opinion". More importantly, however, this article concerns the concept of "net neutrality" generally; not merely net neutrality in the USA. Is there "strong public opinion" in favor of government imposed net neutrality in other countries? How is this known? In constructing the sentence by prefacing with what seems like almost a mandate from the population at large to justify government regulation, the author of the sentence has engaged in advocacy in favor of net neutrality. As the claim to "strong public opinion" is unsupported in the very article cited and purely advocacy, I plan to remove the introductory phrase entirely within two days unless convinced otherwise by considered argument. Felacronom ( talk) 20:49, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
In the first paragraph, "net neutrality" is defined as follows: Net neutrality is the principle that Internet service providers treat all data on the Internet equally, and not discriminate or charge differently by user, content, website, platform, application, type of attached equipment, or method of communication. The citation for this definition is, "The Net Neutrality Debate: Access to Broadband Networks" by Angele A. Gilroy published by the Congressional Research Service on June 22, 2018. Gilroy's definition can be found on page 2 in the "Summary" section of the article and is in two parts, quoted exactly thus, "The move to place restrictions on the owners of the networks that compose and provide access to the internet, to ensure equal access and nondiscriminatory treatment, is referred to as “net neutrality.” There is no single accepted definition of “net neutrality,” but most agree that any such definition should include the general principles that owners of the networks that compose and provide access to the internet should not control how consumers lawfully use that network, and they should not be able to discriminate against content provider access to that network." Note the first part Gilroy's definition requires a "...move to place restrictions..." on owners of internet networks. Gilroy also acknowledges the lack of cogent definition of "net neutrality" generally. In fact, if one were to read even Tim Wu's treatment of the issue one would be hard pressed to find a single, easily accessible definition; he talks of "ends" and "means" and other such platitudes. In both Gilroy's two part definition, however, and Tim Wu's overly long treatment, there is one overarching and simple theme that consistently runs through both threads; net neutrality includes the use of government regulation on owners to achieve a political policy. If one thinks about the phrase itself in light of what has been written and popularly available on the subject broadly, it's as if the phrase was essentially created by those who specifically seek government regulation of the internet.
Therefore, in order to be consistent with the source cited (Gilory) and the de facto father of the concept (Wu), the definition must include the imposition of government control through regulation. True, in the third sentence of the first paragraph, we see reference to the concept "sometimes" being "...enforced through government mandate." This seems a very weak qualifier. Pursuant to Gilroy and Wu, government regulation is an integral part of net neutrality. I propose that the definition at the start of the first paragraph be changed to better reflect the two part definition provided in the citation to include government regulation of the internet in order to supposedly achieve the non-discrimination in data type. Felacronom ( talk) 21:22, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
The "Open Internet" section I noticed had appropriate citations for its statements up until about the last sentence. I noticed that in the last sentence of the paragraph, Thailand and the United Kingdom were used as an example of countries with internet police without providing any proof to back this statement up. There is information available for this subject, but are there any more solid citations by any chance? A more official source would be greatly appreciated Tony2227 ( talk) 02:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
User:Mindmatrix tried to delete "computer scientists" and "internet entrepreneurs" from listed opponents of net neutrality in the lead section and criticism section, when
Why? 160.39.235.157 ( talk) 04:57, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
The “Net Neutrality” page on Wikipedia has around 204 references for various citations throughout the article. These citations cover information from the definition of net neutrality itself, to relevant topics that sit just outside the spotlight like what will happen to Netflix and Vimeo if net neutrality is lost. Multiple journals and official documents can also be found in the page’s list of references. Due to the article and topic subject being so large, it is clear that the number of citations for the page is appropriate. However, the quantity of citations does not mean that the source material is all reliable. Due to this topic being very media centered, outlets such as the “New York Times” show up in the reference list several times. This creates a problem because the New York Times is a news outlet that produces many opinion pieces written by biased writers. One example of an opinion piece posted by the New York Times would be David Brooks’ “A Nation of Weavers”, which came out on the 18th of February this year. Wired.com is another website that produces opinion pieces that is used in the Wikipedia reference section. As for plagiarism, the articles mentioned previously did not contain any copied material, and the article as a whole seemed to be absent of any sort of plagiarism. Quotes taken from certain individuals relevant to net neutrality such as Ajit Pai himself are cited to correctly display that they are in fact quotes. Quotes from other individuals are also listed appropriately. If this were not the case these edits more than likely would not be able to pass through the Wikipedia editors. The sources that the information is derived from on the net neutrality page consist mostly of online news outlets within the United States. CBC news, which is a Canadian news outlet, is also present within the references section, but outside sources are not the majority of sources. Official documents, while limited in number on the page, are sufficient in giving the relevant information for each section. The FTC or Federal Trade Commission FAQ was also used as a citation on the page. A common theme throughout this article is the underrepresentation of the side responsible for dismantling net neutrality. Most of the counter arguments come from statements by Ajit Pai, who is the main driving force behind taking down net neutrality. This does not bode well for the article, as it comes off as almost entirely biased. However, it is increasingly difficult to find any sources that support the destruction of net neutrality that are not behind its driving force to begin with. Despite all of this, there is no clear indication that the articles were written with a strong bias. Most of the statements regarding net neutrality were compilations of things mentioned by other news outlets and journals. Tony2227 ( talk) 14:36, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
The “Net Neutrality” page on Wikipedia has around 204 references for various citations throughout the article. These citations cover information from the definition of net neutrality itself, to relevant topics that sit just outside the spotlight like what will happen to Netflix and Vimeo if net neutrality is lost. Multiple journals and official documents can also be found in the page’s list of references. Due to the article and topic subject being so large, it is clear that the number of citations for the page is appropriate. However, the quantity of citations does not mean that the source material is all reliable. Due to this topic being very media centered, outlets such as the “New York Times” show up in the reference list several times. This creates a problem because the New York Times is a news outlet that produces many opinion pieces written by biased writers. One example of an opinion piece posted by the New York Times would be David Brooks’ “A Nation of Weavers”, which came out on the 18th of February this year. Wired.com is another website that produces opinion pieces that is used in the Wikipedia reference section. As for plagiarism, the articles mentioned previously did not contain any copied material, and the article as a whole seemed to be absent of any sort of plagiarism. Quotes taken from certain individuals relevant to net neutrality such as Ajit Pai himself are cited to correctly display that they are in fact quotes. Quotes from other individuals are also listed appropriately. If this were not the case these edits more than likely would not be able to pass through the Wikipedia editors. The sources that the information is derived from on the net neutrality page consist mostly of online news outlets within the United States. CBC news, which is a Canadian news outlet, is also present within the references section, but outside sources are not the majority of sources. Official documents, while limited in number on the page, are sufficient in giving the relevant information for each section. The FTC or Federal Trade Commission FAQ was also used as a citation on the page. A common theme throughout this article is the underrepresentation of the side responsible for dismantling net neutrality. Most of the counter arguments come from statements by Ajit Pai, who is the main driving force behind taking down net neutrality. This does not bode well for the article, as it comes off as almost entirely biased. However, it is increasingly difficult to find any sources that support the destruction of net neutrality that are not behind its driving force to begin with. Despite all of this, there is no clear indication that the articles were written with a strong bias. Most of the statements regarding net neutrality were compilations of things mentioned by other news outlets and journals. Tony2227 ( talk) 14:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Draft for possible additions to Open Internet Section
DISCLAIMER! This is a school project for my Media Literacy Class (MCO 220 - 01). Not all of these edits or additions may be perfect, or necessary.
The last paragraph of the Open Internet section could have some more information on its subject. Here is a draft of what could be added:
"Other countries such as Russia, China, and North Korea also use similar tactics to Thailand in order to control the variety of internet media within their respective countries. In comparison to the United States or Canada for example, these countries have far more restrictive internet service providers. This approach is reminiscent of a Closed Platform system, as both ideas are highly similar. These systems all serve to hinder access to a wide variety of internet service, which is a stark contrast to the idea of an open Internet system."
Sources used: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-net/2016/russia http://www.chogabje.com/board/view.asp?C_IDX=59852&C_CC=AZ https://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/china0806/3.htm https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f672/bc06ea9b47994a0677f8eaa088a86699b525.pdf
As for the “Dumb Pipe” section, these are some simple critiques:
The second paragraph of the dumb pipe section has two statements that are without any sort of citation. An argument for the first sentence can be found in, “The end-to-end argument and application design: the role of trust” by David D Clark, Marjory S. Blumenthal. The second sentence has no basis for the statement it makes about MetroTech, Inc creating the term “dumb wave” and I have yet to find anything on this. In the first paragraph last sentence of Data Discrimination there is a broad statement about ISP customers switching ISPs due to data discrimination, but there is no citation. This statement is more of an opinion or idea and can’t really be cited. In Data Discrimination in the second paragraph, ISPs Terms of Service are mentioned without a citation. Perhaps the Xfinity Terms of Service could serve as a citation here? Here are some quick examples of sources that could be used to update or enrich the information in these two sections:
Data Discrimination: Schrage, M. (2014, November 02). Big Data's Dangerous New Era of Discrimination. Retrieved from https://hbr.org/2014/01/big-datas-dangerous-new-era-of-discrimination
Dumb Pipe: Dumb Networks, Not Just Dumb Pipes. (n.d.). Retrieved from https://www.lightreading.com/optical-ip/100g-ethernet/dumb-networks-not-just-dumb-pipes/a/d-id/745234
Tony2227 ( talk) 16:29, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Hello Tony, After analyzing your ideas for contribution to this article I have a few suggestions. Looking at some of your sources, I have found a more recent report regarding Russia’s “open internet,” https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-net/2017/russia. This is the same site, but with updated information. Aslo when looking at your text contributions for this section I would advise against using words like “far more” and “highly similar.” Although your information is accurate, these terms seem suggestive and it would be more neutral without “far” and “highly.” I have found a PDF file to support your argument for the first sentence of the “Dumb Pipe” section https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1585&context=fclj. If you believe that there is a statement in the article that is too broad I suggest trying to find some information that can be narrowed down and cited. As for adding citations to this section to make it more credible, I agree that the “ISP” and “Xfinity Terms of Use” could be helpful. That information can be found here: https://www.xfinity.com/policies, http://www.isp.com/termsofservice.asp. In general I think your contributions are valid and accurate. If you would like, I would encourage looking for the missing citations in this article. Twomey.shannon ( talk) 22:06, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
In the "By Country" section, under "United States", it features the following statement:
"In 2018, a bill cleared the U.S. Senate, with Republicans Lisa Murkowski, John Kennedy and Susan Collins joining all 49 Democrats but the House majority denied the bill a hearing.[64]"
This statement would appear to benefit perhaps from an additional citation referencing the activity by the House in denying the hearing, as well as inclusion of some more descriptive language indicating the date at which this occurred. Rtwikim9765 ( talk) 01:29, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
Just to let other fellow Wikipedians know that this is for a school project for my media literacy class and I am new to the world of Wikipedia, so the suggestions I am making may not be able to be executed. I noticed in the second paragraph under the “Dumb pipe” section that there are a few citations missing with backing up those sentences. I am currently trying my best effort finding reliable sources for those statements.
Also, I noticed that in the “Potentially increased taxes” section in the final sentence of that first paragraph, their may be a sign of close paraphrasing. Part of the sentence states that “Financial website Nerd Wallet did their own assessment and settled on a possible US$6.25 billion tax impact” Where in the source it says “Personal finance website Nerd Wallet did their own assessment and settled on a possible $6.25 billion impact”. I am currently working restructuring that part of the sentence to make it a more valid statement. I may be wrong about this so dismiss this if I am. Dandre12722 ( talk) 19:49, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
This article could use some help right near the top, especially at this key time when Net Neutrality (NN) has been seriously attacked, with regards to how long-standing Net Neutrality has been. And, it should have some discussion of "the right way" to achieve the goals those who want to destroy Net Neutrality desire - without violating Net Neutrality and thereby make it a lot more clear both what's at stake and the avarice of those who want NN ended. I would have just made some minor edits, and added a small paragraph on "the right way", but the article is locked.
We are asked to cite our sources; in this case I am the source. And, I can likely find some others to back me up, if necessary. I describe my credential on this matter herein, and wouldn't mind in a more private setting sharing more with whoever makes decisions about this article.
In the late 1970s, through the middle 1980s, as a technologist, I wrote network protocols (some of which are still in use on the internet) and in 1995 I joined UC Berkeley's Electronics Research Laboratory (their Computer Science department) to lead a team of 43 or so researchers, including as a member of my staff Turing Award winner Jim Gray and led by Professor Michael Stonebraker (now at MIT), who recently also became a Turing Award winner.
In my earlier work, management directed that data packets had to be all handled identically and the only issues were the basics of reliably getting data to where it needed to go. "The network is a utility," I was told. One layer above the PLL - Physical Link Layer of the OSI model - was ONLY to get data where it goes and not make any other decisions as those belong to higher layers. So, the concept of Net Neutrality was present from the beginning or extremely early on - "before the late '70s" is as close as my personal knowledge of that goes. I bet there's someone - if they could only be found - who can pin this down a lot more specifically. My guess would be that the guys who did the IP layer of TCP/IP would know.
In the early 1990s, I worked for an internet connected firm and worked closely with the networking staff and occasionally helped because of my earlier work. I was curious how they'd connected to the Internet and, because our company had it's own private, inter-corporate network, there was talk about our becoming a part of the official internet and people I worked with were responsible for figuring out if we were going to do it. The subject of net-neutrality came up, though I don't recall if that term was used at the time.
It's also very important to note that our firm could do exactly what the anti-Net Neutrality people want to do, in that with our multiple connections to the net, we could bypass congestion points via our internal net and pass the data packets at a more advantageous connection point. This is the RIGHT way to NOT violate Net Neutrality while some traffic gets "preferred service". And, there's NOTHING against the NN rules in this; anyone can have their own private network and join the internet wherever they care to make a connection, and thereby gain a performance advantage. "The Right Way" is that carriers like Comcast can sell this capability to companies while still conforming to Net Neutrality, and indeed, they have. The problem for the oligarchs is that they can't force that business. And THAT is what this current battle is about; If you can slow down or drop packets that are already "on" the internet, then you can force those you wish to pay your blood money. In effect, you're saying that within your corporate borders, YOU, the hardware owner, have domain over what or whose data can or can't pass, or how quickly. (In my view, that is NOT the internet, that's a private network; this is a battle to make the internet private.)
I can also attest that in when I joined UCB in 1995, talk of the net was all abuzz and my team discussed it daily in some way or another. I can't tell you who coined "Net Neutrality" but I can tell you the term was in use by 1995 at Berkeley in Soda Hall.
While I disagree as my first hand experience says it's false, my point isn't to attack the assertion about Tim Wu in the article which states:
"The term was coined by Columbia University media law professor Tim Wu in 2003, as an extension of the longstanding concept of a common carrier, which was used to describe the role of telephone systems."
Rather, I think the way it's written now implies that Net Neutrality came about sometime around 2003 and that's just completely false, and instead it's important the article make assertions about how Net Neutrality has always been a part of the net, and that such an assertion belongs very close to the top because many people only read the first couple of paragraphs of an article, especially a long one. And, also near the top, the article should have a discussion of what the current issue is all about, as I just discussed - forcing people to pay premiums for what is really the standard service.
If whoever controls this article grants, I'll attempt to draft up a competent update to the page - you probably know better than I do how to notify people via this system! (I haven't written a lot for Wikipedia.)
§ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rtroy ( talk • contribs) 04:57, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
"Twenty internet pioneers, including the inventor of the worldwide web, Tim Berners Lee, wrote an open letter to the pertinent House and Senate subcommittees, asking that they urge the FCC to cancel its vote to repeal net neutrality."
I was confused that the letter was published via Tumblr, and all the reporting on it (including the linked source) seems to use it as the only source and doesn't mention any external confirmation. I did find a tweeted link ( archive) on Tim Berners Lee's verified account, so it appears to be legitimate. Should this be included as a source? 2A02:8109:F3F:C51C:5F72:A59A:E835:ABF5 ( talk) 20:19, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Net neutrality has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Just came back to make some overdue edits to the Arguments section, but the article still is protected. See here for my original suggestions:
/info/en/?search=Talk:Net_neutrality#"Arguments_against"_and_unreasonable_length/repetition_of_arguments
In particular, I would request the following specific changes to "Arguments against":
Lastly, a lot of the text in this section is nothing but quotes and, frankly, quite tough to read. Compare with the "Arguments for" section. Would be great if this can get a major overhaul due to the current importance of the topic, instead of staying protected until nobody discusses those issues anymore. 95.168.159.112 ( talk) 01:25, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template.
Upsidedown Keyboard (
talk)
14:30, 23 December 2017 (UTC)I would like to see a section on how Net Neutrality relates to existing QOS capabilities, including WMM. WMM ( Wireless_Multimedia_Extensions) is an 802.11e standard to prioritize video and audio traffic. In my experience I have had to disable WMM on my wifi routers because video traffic was given priority and impacted other operations like http connection handshake. It may seem like a good idea to prioritize video so Netflix does not get interrupted. But video is high bandwidth, and a more responsive system might use shortest job first, therefore lowering priority of video streams. I'm suggesting it is helpful to have prioritization and not treat all content as equal. The devil is in the details here, and how to implement "equal" can make a big difference in the system behavior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericjster ( talk • contribs) 22:50, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
Following my suggestions above, I just removed this section from the "Arguments against". Until there is at least one source legitimately arguing this point, this should not be in the article. As I already said, the linked article explicitly mentions that bandwidth is not an issue at all, ironically, and the "series of tubes" argument is noteworthy only because nobody took it seriously, which is clearly laid out in the article about it. -- 109.45.2.123 ( talk) 10:35, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
If I can somehow convince Congress to veto this act, what should I do? Chariho 205165 ( talk) 00:16, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
You guys?
I've just learn that the FCC has just repealed Net Neutrality.
Is that bad? Really bad? -- LooneyTunerIan ( talk) 03:36, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Net neutrality/Archive 3. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Net neutrality/Archive 3 at the Reference desk. |
As a reminder Wikipedia cannot host general discussions about the subjects of articles. Consider having those discussions on another site. Instead, advance the development of the Wikipedia article by sharing published reliable sources here presenting different views about how net neutrality either matters or does not matter. There are interesting publications for all sides which this wiki article should summarize and cite.
If anyone sees a discussion being started here, please help by trying to turn the conversation to researching and sharing sources to cite, criticizing the text of the Wikipedia article, or discussing whether the Wikipedia article could do better to give information about whatever discussion topic anyone raises. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:21, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
There was a section for describing the differences by country at the Wikipedia articles "net neutrality" and " net neutrality law". This caused the problem of Wikipedia:Content forking so I cut the section from this article and the other and combined it at Net neutrality by country. Please comment about the split at Talk:Net neutrality by country. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:05, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
This advertisement has been widely circulated in the English speaking world in the last month. The social context is that it is in Portuguese and from Portugal where lack of net neutrality is normal, but many in the English speaking world find this image shocking.
Here is some news coverage around this screenshot: (see better formatted list below
Blue Rasberry
(talk) 13:07, 22 November 2017 (UTC))
r/technology commentators (27 October 2017).
"In Portugal, with no net neutrality, internet providers are starting to split the net into packages. This is the future of the Internet if the FCC gets its way. It's not theory. It's happening already".
Reddit.
Doctorow, Corey (28 October 2017).
"Portuguese non-neutral ISP shows us what our Trumpian internet will look like / Boing Boing". boingboing.net.
Coren, Michael J. (30 October 2017).
"Without net neutrality in Portugal, mobile internet is bundled like a cable package".
Quartz.
Bode, Karl (31 October 2017).
"Portugal Shows The Internet Why Net Neutrality Is Important".
Techdirt.
Price, Rob (21 November 2017).
"If you want to see what America would be like if it ditched net neutrality, just look at Portugal".
Business Insider.
I just posted it to be at the lead because I think this is the most relevant image identified for demonstrating what net neutrality does.
Blue Rasberry
(talk)
19:15, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with Net neutrality. It is a phone plan where you get 10GB a month and can pay for extra unlimited data for certain apps. We have this in America with net neutrality so no it doesn't prevent this. Also, the image has been intentionally modified to remove the part that says it's a phone plan and to fear monger for net neutrality. This is apples and oranges. If you want to discuss possible fears fine but you can't show phone plans as results of not having net neutrality. Ozfer ( talk) 03:22, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Here is the news coverage by date. This confirms that reliable sources report that selling favored access to get data from one web application versus another is a violation of net neutrality. So far as I can tell, US Representative Ro Khanna ( Democrat - California) was the first to use the Meo advertisement as an illustration of a practice which is contrary to net neutrality and offensive to people who support net neutrality. From his Twitter it went to the /r/technology on reddit, then from there Corey Doctorow posted it to Boing Boing, and from there it went everywhere and continues to travel. I say this by checking the dates of posting and not finding anything earlier. If anyone can track any earlier origin or pathway then please share. All of these pages contain the image with the exception of reddit which as usual has only a link and no images. Reddit discussions are not normally a reliable source for wiki, but this did make the top of the front page so it was the most discussed news item in the world on that day. I gave the links to all of these to the Wayback Machine so the Internet Archive has copies of them. It already had most of them anyway. I have a German link and Italian link to mainstream newspapers so I would say that this is an International issue despite the origin of this being United States citizens using a Portuguese advertisement to discuss their own local laws.
Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:07, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Karl.i.biased In the EU, net neutrality falls under the scope of BEREC - Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications [6] [7]. In Portugal, there's also a regulating body, called ANACOM, that follows the guidelines set by BEREC on net neutrality. [8] [9] [10]. I see where you are coming from with this debate, but as I stated above, these kind of data plans exist all around Europe, like in Spain, the UK and also in Romania [11]. In the USA as well. Do I necessarily think it's right to have these kind of plans? No. But these plans are still a far cry from lack of net neutrality since you do not have to pay to have access to specific websites. RetiredDuke ( talk) 16:17, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Edit request withdrawn
Restore this Meo advertisement as an illustration to the top of the article at the second line immediately below the notice on formatting dates:
[[File:+ Smart Net - advertisement offering service packages.png|thumb|right|500px|Advocates for net neutrality have cited [[Internet service provider]] [[MEO (Portugal)|MEO]]'s October 2017 advertisement as an illustration of [[Internet access]] without net neutrality.<ref> This particular image has been the subject of discussion in media including the following: *{{cite web|last1=Khanna|first1=Ro|authorlink=Ro Khanna|title=In Portugal, with no net neutrality, internet providers are starting to split the net into packages|url=https://twitter.com/rokhanna/status/923701871092441088?lang=en|website=@rokhanna|publisher=[[Twitter]]|language=en|date=26 October 2017}} *{{cite web|last1=Doctorow|first1=Corey|authorlink=Corey Doctorow|title=Portuguese non-neutral ISP shows us what our Trumpian internet will look like / Boing Boing|url=https://boingboing.net/2017/10/28/warning-taken-as-suggestion.html|website=[[:d:Q891048|boingboing.net]]|date=28 October 2017}} *{{cite web|last1=Coren|first1=Michael J.|title=Without net neutrality in Portugal, mobile internet is bundled like a cable package|url=https://qz.com/1114690/why-is-net-neutrality-important-look-to-portugal-and-spain-to-understand/|website=[[:d:Q7269379|Quartz]]|date=30 October 2017}} *{{cite web|last1=Wu|first1=Tim|authorlink1=Tim Wu|title=Web has been disappointing lately, I'll admit, but look what it looks like without Net Neutrality (in Portugal)|url=https://twitter.com/superwuster/status/925181150506692608|website=@superwuster|publisher=Twitter|language=en|date=30 October 2017}} *{{cite web|last1=Bode|first1=Karl|title=Portugal Shows The Internet Why Net Neutrality Is Important|url=https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20171030/12364538513/portugal-shows-internet-why-net-neutrality-is-important.shtml|website=[[:d:Q1647664|Techdirt]]|date=31 October 2017}}</ref>]]
References
I recognize that the conversation about this image is not completed, but it has stalled. Normally there is no hurry but this article is at the center of an urgent political discussion right now which is rising and will peak 14 December at the repeal of net neutrality laws in the United States. Three days have passed with a conversation pause and even from the beginning the opposition has declined to respond to the sources and rationales for adding the image which I have posted on the talk page. Perhaps this image can be removed again, or perhaps we edit the citations or captions, but at this point in the discussion, please re-add it to attract more comments. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:25, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
It is used for scare people, have nothing to do with Net neutrality. Is a personalized Internet service, not a surplus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koala Wiki ( talk • contribs) 12:06, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
I'm actually typing this while using MEO ISP. it's my provider. it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with net neutrality. it's misleading and it makes no sense. meo respects net neutrality otherwise I wouldn't be their client for years. they don't block any websites. they don't throttle others. it's really stupid to see this in wikipedia when net neutrality is such a big issue. shame on this shit. I was reading the article and I was like wtf, this is from meo (altice now btw) and I just had to make a comment here on how silly and absurd it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.244.0.157 ( talk • contribs) 06:36, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Noting the discussion here, I'd like to establish a final consensus discussion for using the image or not. Voting begins below. -- Codyorb ( talk) 00:19, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
These prices aren’t for access to the listed websites, they are for unlimited data to the listed websites because Portugal has data caps. Any American should understand this as we pay extra for unlimited data on our cell phones. Data caps do not violate Net Neutrality. Decimation41 ( talk) 06:33, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
I think the image should be removed. It is definitely misleading. It has nothing to do with net neutrality in respect to broadband internet. It was added in a knee-jerk, fear mongering manner and while we sit here and discuss whether to have it or not it remains. If anything, the image should be remained as the talk continues. SouthernJusticeWarrior ( talk) 01:09, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Image should be removed. It's highly controversial and misleading. The claims about it have been proven false by fact checkers. Sy9045 ( talk) 10:44, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
Does this page really have a twitter post as a fact? Meo, like Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, and T-Mobile has data caps. I don’t know if you get 3GB, 6GB, or 50 a month, but you have a limit on their plans. However, if you pay more, (sound familiar smart phone users?) you can have unlimited acces and the listed sites do not count against your data cap. It doesn’t violate Net Neutrality, it’s almost an inevitable solution to it, just like in June of 2010, when our unlimited data plans on our phones vanished just days before the release of FaceTime. Decimation41 ( talk) 06:40, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
This is an English language Wikipedia article.
Screenshot-2017-10-28 MEO - Televisão, Internet, Telefone e Telemóvel
Do we got something like this in English?
Da Vinci Nanjing ( talk) 18:16, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Meo is a phone/smartphone company selling data packages for smartphones - 14 euros a month for 500mb plus free calls within Portugal and 250 minutes of calls outside Portugal - plus for 5 euros a month they can add the 10 gigabytes for some selected sites.
The current caption is " MEO offers to sell additional access to particular data services in this October 2017 advertisement. Consumer advocates for net neutrality have cited this pricing model as an illustration of Internet access without net neutrality." This is misleading - it's a smartphone-exclusive offer of a bundled package of phone calls plus text messages plus data plus extra data.
Note on references - Twitter is NOT a reliable source. What Cory Doctrow writes in boingboing is not a reliable source - and it is contradicted by the fact checking on 9news (which is a reliable source)
ANACOM and BERC say that MEO's practices are legal and within zero-rating policies.
The actual sale page should be linked as a ref
-- Callinus ( talk) 07:35, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
I strongly oppose using MEO "Smart NET" addons as an "example" of no net neutrality. This is clearly disinformation, that started with a politically biased tweet and spread like wildfire in some english language news sources, blogs and social media. The claim that Portugal "has no net neutrality" is blatantly false and was immediately dismissed by fact-checking sites and more careful news sources.
"Smart NET" addons are zero-rating additional packages. While there is some wordwide controversy regarding zero-rating offers, they are common in several EU countries and they do not violate EU neutrality regulations (EU Regulation 2015/2120 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 November 2015). " In accordance with this regulation and guidelines, zero-rating is not prohibited. However, a zero-rating offer where all applications are blocked once the data cap is reached out except for zero-rated applications would infringe the regulation". This is not the case with MEO or any other European zero-rating offer so far. When you reach the data capa on the basic plan, you are still able to use any app or access any website, regardless of having or not these "Smart NET" addons (although you are charged for the extra traffic). Smart NET addons only give you a discount price on some apps' traffic.
Except Portugal does practice net neutrality, and the graphic doesn’t accurately depict what Portugal’s Internet looks like overall. The European Union’s Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications (BEREC) established net neutrality guidelines in 2015. Portugal is a member of the European Union, so its internet providers must comply. The service promoted in the MEO graphic, “Smart Net,” is essentially a menu of add-ons to the company’s standard mobile data service plan. Contrary to the way it’s been presented, it doesn’t limit users’ access to particular apps or sites. Rather, it lays out prepackaged options via which MEO customers can add extra gigabytes of data usage to their mobile phone plans (similar to Vodafone’s “Passes” offerings). MEO defended Smart Net in a statement to the Portuguese news web site Observador (translation by Google): MEO complies with the European regulation on net neutrality and there is no market distortion caused by its commercial offers. The Smart Net offerings correspond only to additional traffic ceilings for certain thematic sets of applications that are no more than the reflection of Portuguese consumer preferences. Portugal’s telecommunications regulatory agency, ANACOM, would not speak to the Smart Net plan in particular but told Observador that “the issue of network neutrality, zero-rating offers and packages with additives are topics under analysis at ANACOM.”
Sure, this doesn't mean that zero-rating addons aren't subject to some controversy and criticism. But they are not a straightforward example of having no net neutrality. Therefore, using MEO example to illustrate the lead or this article is simply wrong and disinformation. JMagalhães ( talk) 16:11, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia's Manual of Style says that lead image thumbnails should be no wider than 300px. The current 500px-wide thumbnail competes with the text for readers' attention and is very distracting. It takes up half the page at normal screen resolution, and should be smaller so that people can choose whether to see the full-size image by opening it in Media Viewer (if you don't know what that is, log out of Wikipedia and click the thumbnail). It is currently shoved in people's faces, which is wrong; people should be given a choice about whether to see this image of an advertisement. Firebrace ( talk) 18:03, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Why not just remove the image from this article, create a section about Meo's data plans at (what is now) MEO (Portugal) article, and move the image over there? JSH-alive/ talk/ cont/ mail 13:25, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
See here: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/portugal-net-neutrality/. I don't understand why this graphic is at the very top of this article, especially because those who cite it tend to use it to justify net neutrality regulations. It's a highly misleading graphic. Portugal already follows net neutrality rules as set by the EU. Further, the net neutrality rules set under the Obama Administration did not ban what MEO is offering. I do not think this misleading graphic should be in this article, especially not at the very top. Sy9045 ( talk) 10:35, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
The editor, Blue Rasberry, originally added this image to the very top of this article because of this reason: "I just posted it to be at the lead because I think this is the most relevant image identified for demonstrating what net neutrality does." In the original caption, the editor writes this: "In this October 2017 advertisement, the Internet service provider MEO offers separate billing for various kinds of online services. Net Neutrality prohibits this sales model." This claim has been proven false by fact checkers like Snopes. The editor also cites a Ro Khanna tweet and various news articles that cite his tweet. Khanna's claims have been debunked by Snopes. As you can see now, the caption to the graphic has been heavily changed. Unless the editor can clearly state why this graphic still belongs at the very top, I will remove the graphic. Sy9045 ( talk) 11:32, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
I believe the US repeal was June 11, and not July 11. 108.160.125.102 ( talk) 02:05, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi I am new to Wikipedia. In the "by country" section this article only includes USA and India. I believe this article should have an added section for Canada as well. Since net neutrality is a heavily talked about issue in Canada, I feel this article can benefit from talking about the Canadian Radio-Television Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) and what they are doing too keep net neutrality in place.-- Hamzas2 ( talk) 19:00, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
At the end of the first introductory paragraph, the last sentence appears thus, "Net neutrality regulations exist only to protect against misuse." Clicking the citation brings up page 326 of "American Governance" Vol. 3 in the "Gale Virtual Reference Library". It's unclear to me whether I'm reading the actual page 326 as the full work is not available without purchase. Nowhere on this page, however, is the claim made that, "Net neutrality regulations exist only to protect against misuse." Furthermore, and putting aside the hardly academically credible sourcing of "Schenectady County Community College" and author Cory Jensen whom know one has ever head of, "misuse" is completely undefined. What constitutes "misuse" and "misuse" by whom and against what? There are certainly many institutions/persons who would argue net neutrality legislation puts incredible power in the hands of government and is therefore subject to "misuse" and abuse of all kinds. Regardless of which side is right, this last sentence of the first paragraph is merely a matter of opinion and, in so far as it is a statement specifically advocating for net neutrality, it is certainly not neutral and does not belong in the introductory paragraph. It belongs only in the "Arguments in favour" section and even there, given the very flimsy nature of the sourcing, highly speculative and broad nature of the claim, and completely unqualified value of "misuse", the sentence seems essentially useless. I plan to remove the sentence in the next two days unless some credible opposing argument can be made. While net neutrality is an area of interest to me, I'm very new to Wikipedia editing and I beg your indulgence. Felacronom ( talk) 20:01, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
The first sentence of the fourth paragraph leads with, "Research suggests that a combination of policy instruments will help realize the range of valued political and economic objectives central to the network neutrality debate," citing to, "Reconciling political and economic goals in the net neutrality debate" by Johannes Bauer and Jonathan Obar. The link leads to a simple abstract as the full document is behind a pay-wall. Isn't there a Wikipedia rule that states one must cite open sources? In any case, this sentence is advocacy in favour of net neutrality. Neither the sentence nor the full cited document are neutral; these people are in fact advocates of net neutrality through government regulation. This sentence and its corresponding citation therefore belong in the "Arguments in favour" section. Of course, it's hard to determine exactly where it belongs without having the full document available for detailed investigation. I plan to move this sentence in two days to the "Arguments in favour" section unless some reasoned argument in opposition surfaces.
The second sentence continues with the introductory phrase, "Combined with strong public opinion...". The only evidence of "...strong public opinion..." offered is a New York Times article, "F.C.C. Approves Net Neutrality Rules, Classifying Broadband Internet Service as a Utility" of February, 2015. The article itself mentions, "..an extraordinary level of political involvement..." in a US political process that claims some 4 million "comments" directed to the FCC on the issue. The article does not specify whether all of those comments were in favour of net neutrality or further provide any insight into how they were characterized, whether they were credible (as in, not from bots), and etc. Considering that there are about 325 million people in the USA, this hardly seems like an example of "strong public opinion" nor does the article itself anywhere mention/demonstrate "strong public opinion". More importantly, however, this article concerns the concept of "net neutrality" generally; not merely net neutrality in the USA. Is there "strong public opinion" in favor of government imposed net neutrality in other countries? How is this known? In constructing the sentence by prefacing with what seems like almost a mandate from the population at large to justify government regulation, the author of the sentence has engaged in advocacy in favor of net neutrality. As the claim to "strong public opinion" is unsupported in the very article cited and purely advocacy, I plan to remove the introductory phrase entirely within two days unless convinced otherwise by considered argument. Felacronom ( talk) 20:49, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
In the first paragraph, "net neutrality" is defined as follows: Net neutrality is the principle that Internet service providers treat all data on the Internet equally, and not discriminate or charge differently by user, content, website, platform, application, type of attached equipment, or method of communication. The citation for this definition is, "The Net Neutrality Debate: Access to Broadband Networks" by Angele A. Gilroy published by the Congressional Research Service on June 22, 2018. Gilroy's definition can be found on page 2 in the "Summary" section of the article and is in two parts, quoted exactly thus, "The move to place restrictions on the owners of the networks that compose and provide access to the internet, to ensure equal access and nondiscriminatory treatment, is referred to as “net neutrality.” There is no single accepted definition of “net neutrality,” but most agree that any such definition should include the general principles that owners of the networks that compose and provide access to the internet should not control how consumers lawfully use that network, and they should not be able to discriminate against content provider access to that network." Note the first part Gilroy's definition requires a "...move to place restrictions..." on owners of internet networks. Gilroy also acknowledges the lack of cogent definition of "net neutrality" generally. In fact, if one were to read even Tim Wu's treatment of the issue one would be hard pressed to find a single, easily accessible definition; he talks of "ends" and "means" and other such platitudes. In both Gilroy's two part definition, however, and Tim Wu's overly long treatment, there is one overarching and simple theme that consistently runs through both threads; net neutrality includes the use of government regulation on owners to achieve a political policy. If one thinks about the phrase itself in light of what has been written and popularly available on the subject broadly, it's as if the phrase was essentially created by those who specifically seek government regulation of the internet.
Therefore, in order to be consistent with the source cited (Gilory) and the de facto father of the concept (Wu), the definition must include the imposition of government control through regulation. True, in the third sentence of the first paragraph, we see reference to the concept "sometimes" being "...enforced through government mandate." This seems a very weak qualifier. Pursuant to Gilroy and Wu, government regulation is an integral part of net neutrality. I propose that the definition at the start of the first paragraph be changed to better reflect the two part definition provided in the citation to include government regulation of the internet in order to supposedly achieve the non-discrimination in data type. Felacronom ( talk) 21:22, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
The "Open Internet" section I noticed had appropriate citations for its statements up until about the last sentence. I noticed that in the last sentence of the paragraph, Thailand and the United Kingdom were used as an example of countries with internet police without providing any proof to back this statement up. There is information available for this subject, but are there any more solid citations by any chance? A more official source would be greatly appreciated Tony2227 ( talk) 02:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
User:Mindmatrix tried to delete "computer scientists" and "internet entrepreneurs" from listed opponents of net neutrality in the lead section and criticism section, when
Why? 160.39.235.157 ( talk) 04:57, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
The “Net Neutrality” page on Wikipedia has around 204 references for various citations throughout the article. These citations cover information from the definition of net neutrality itself, to relevant topics that sit just outside the spotlight like what will happen to Netflix and Vimeo if net neutrality is lost. Multiple journals and official documents can also be found in the page’s list of references. Due to the article and topic subject being so large, it is clear that the number of citations for the page is appropriate. However, the quantity of citations does not mean that the source material is all reliable. Due to this topic being very media centered, outlets such as the “New York Times” show up in the reference list several times. This creates a problem because the New York Times is a news outlet that produces many opinion pieces written by biased writers. One example of an opinion piece posted by the New York Times would be David Brooks’ “A Nation of Weavers”, which came out on the 18th of February this year. Wired.com is another website that produces opinion pieces that is used in the Wikipedia reference section. As for plagiarism, the articles mentioned previously did not contain any copied material, and the article as a whole seemed to be absent of any sort of plagiarism. Quotes taken from certain individuals relevant to net neutrality such as Ajit Pai himself are cited to correctly display that they are in fact quotes. Quotes from other individuals are also listed appropriately. If this were not the case these edits more than likely would not be able to pass through the Wikipedia editors. The sources that the information is derived from on the net neutrality page consist mostly of online news outlets within the United States. CBC news, which is a Canadian news outlet, is also present within the references section, but outside sources are not the majority of sources. Official documents, while limited in number on the page, are sufficient in giving the relevant information for each section. The FTC or Federal Trade Commission FAQ was also used as a citation on the page. A common theme throughout this article is the underrepresentation of the side responsible for dismantling net neutrality. Most of the counter arguments come from statements by Ajit Pai, who is the main driving force behind taking down net neutrality. This does not bode well for the article, as it comes off as almost entirely biased. However, it is increasingly difficult to find any sources that support the destruction of net neutrality that are not behind its driving force to begin with. Despite all of this, there is no clear indication that the articles were written with a strong bias. Most of the statements regarding net neutrality were compilations of things mentioned by other news outlets and journals. Tony2227 ( talk) 14:36, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
The “Net Neutrality” page on Wikipedia has around 204 references for various citations throughout the article. These citations cover information from the definition of net neutrality itself, to relevant topics that sit just outside the spotlight like what will happen to Netflix and Vimeo if net neutrality is lost. Multiple journals and official documents can also be found in the page’s list of references. Due to the article and topic subject being so large, it is clear that the number of citations for the page is appropriate. However, the quantity of citations does not mean that the source material is all reliable. Due to this topic being very media centered, outlets such as the “New York Times” show up in the reference list several times. This creates a problem because the New York Times is a news outlet that produces many opinion pieces written by biased writers. One example of an opinion piece posted by the New York Times would be David Brooks’ “A Nation of Weavers”, which came out on the 18th of February this year. Wired.com is another website that produces opinion pieces that is used in the Wikipedia reference section. As for plagiarism, the articles mentioned previously did not contain any copied material, and the article as a whole seemed to be absent of any sort of plagiarism. Quotes taken from certain individuals relevant to net neutrality such as Ajit Pai himself are cited to correctly display that they are in fact quotes. Quotes from other individuals are also listed appropriately. If this were not the case these edits more than likely would not be able to pass through the Wikipedia editors. The sources that the information is derived from on the net neutrality page consist mostly of online news outlets within the United States. CBC news, which is a Canadian news outlet, is also present within the references section, but outside sources are not the majority of sources. Official documents, while limited in number on the page, are sufficient in giving the relevant information for each section. The FTC or Federal Trade Commission FAQ was also used as a citation on the page. A common theme throughout this article is the underrepresentation of the side responsible for dismantling net neutrality. Most of the counter arguments come from statements by Ajit Pai, who is the main driving force behind taking down net neutrality. This does not bode well for the article, as it comes off as almost entirely biased. However, it is increasingly difficult to find any sources that support the destruction of net neutrality that are not behind its driving force to begin with. Despite all of this, there is no clear indication that the articles were written with a strong bias. Most of the statements regarding net neutrality were compilations of things mentioned by other news outlets and journals. Tony2227 ( talk) 14:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Draft for possible additions to Open Internet Section
DISCLAIMER! This is a school project for my Media Literacy Class (MCO 220 - 01). Not all of these edits or additions may be perfect, or necessary.
The last paragraph of the Open Internet section could have some more information on its subject. Here is a draft of what could be added:
"Other countries such as Russia, China, and North Korea also use similar tactics to Thailand in order to control the variety of internet media within their respective countries. In comparison to the United States or Canada for example, these countries have far more restrictive internet service providers. This approach is reminiscent of a Closed Platform system, as both ideas are highly similar. These systems all serve to hinder access to a wide variety of internet service, which is a stark contrast to the idea of an open Internet system."
Sources used: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-net/2016/russia http://www.chogabje.com/board/view.asp?C_IDX=59852&C_CC=AZ https://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/china0806/3.htm https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f672/bc06ea9b47994a0677f8eaa088a86699b525.pdf
As for the “Dumb Pipe” section, these are some simple critiques:
The second paragraph of the dumb pipe section has two statements that are without any sort of citation. An argument for the first sentence can be found in, “The end-to-end argument and application design: the role of trust” by David D Clark, Marjory S. Blumenthal. The second sentence has no basis for the statement it makes about MetroTech, Inc creating the term “dumb wave” and I have yet to find anything on this. In the first paragraph last sentence of Data Discrimination there is a broad statement about ISP customers switching ISPs due to data discrimination, but there is no citation. This statement is more of an opinion or idea and can’t really be cited. In Data Discrimination in the second paragraph, ISPs Terms of Service are mentioned without a citation. Perhaps the Xfinity Terms of Service could serve as a citation here? Here are some quick examples of sources that could be used to update or enrich the information in these two sections:
Data Discrimination: Schrage, M. (2014, November 02). Big Data's Dangerous New Era of Discrimination. Retrieved from https://hbr.org/2014/01/big-datas-dangerous-new-era-of-discrimination
Dumb Pipe: Dumb Networks, Not Just Dumb Pipes. (n.d.). Retrieved from https://www.lightreading.com/optical-ip/100g-ethernet/dumb-networks-not-just-dumb-pipes/a/d-id/745234
Tony2227 ( talk) 16:29, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Hello Tony, After analyzing your ideas for contribution to this article I have a few suggestions. Looking at some of your sources, I have found a more recent report regarding Russia’s “open internet,” https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-net/2017/russia. This is the same site, but with updated information. Aslo when looking at your text contributions for this section I would advise against using words like “far more” and “highly similar.” Although your information is accurate, these terms seem suggestive and it would be more neutral without “far” and “highly.” I have found a PDF file to support your argument for the first sentence of the “Dumb Pipe” section https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1585&context=fclj. If you believe that there is a statement in the article that is too broad I suggest trying to find some information that can be narrowed down and cited. As for adding citations to this section to make it more credible, I agree that the “ISP” and “Xfinity Terms of Use” could be helpful. That information can be found here: https://www.xfinity.com/policies, http://www.isp.com/termsofservice.asp. In general I think your contributions are valid and accurate. If you would like, I would encourage looking for the missing citations in this article. Twomey.shannon ( talk) 22:06, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
In the "By Country" section, under "United States", it features the following statement:
"In 2018, a bill cleared the U.S. Senate, with Republicans Lisa Murkowski, John Kennedy and Susan Collins joining all 49 Democrats but the House majority denied the bill a hearing.[64]"
This statement would appear to benefit perhaps from an additional citation referencing the activity by the House in denying the hearing, as well as inclusion of some more descriptive language indicating the date at which this occurred. Rtwikim9765 ( talk) 01:29, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
Just to let other fellow Wikipedians know that this is for a school project for my media literacy class and I am new to the world of Wikipedia, so the suggestions I am making may not be able to be executed. I noticed in the second paragraph under the “Dumb pipe” section that there are a few citations missing with backing up those sentences. I am currently trying my best effort finding reliable sources for those statements.
Also, I noticed that in the “Potentially increased taxes” section in the final sentence of that first paragraph, their may be a sign of close paraphrasing. Part of the sentence states that “Financial website Nerd Wallet did their own assessment and settled on a possible US$6.25 billion tax impact” Where in the source it says “Personal finance website Nerd Wallet did their own assessment and settled on a possible $6.25 billion impact”. I am currently working restructuring that part of the sentence to make it a more valid statement. I may be wrong about this so dismiss this if I am. Dandre12722 ( talk) 19:49, 1 March 2020 (UTC)