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I have tried to pick together what information I can find about Nerthus. I find the reasoning logical, but that can of course be disputed. I you find the information contradictory or simply wrong, please make a contribution Wiglaf
I have trouble understanding this last sentence: "Slaves do this ministry and are then swallowed by the same lake: hence a mysterious terror and an ignorance full of reverence as to what that may be which men see only to die." Does this mean that the thralls sacrificed themselves in a ritual?
I added the paragraph "It should also be noted that the same root as in Nerthus …" and so on. I used “Svitjod, resor till Sveriges ursprung” by Swedish archaeologist Mats G. Larsson as main reference here. Salleman 16:10, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I found the following website which is, upon brief inspection, a verbatim copy of this article. I'm not sure which came first, but I thought I'd bring it to everyone's attention:
http://experts.about.com/e/n/ne/Nerthus.htm
I made some comments inside the article inside <> editor marks. Inside Etmology, what do the names of other Gods have to do with the etymology of the name, Nerthus? The names don't sound etymologicaly close, to me. What does the war of the Gods have to do with Nerthus? The relevance is missing. Goldenrowley ( talk) 02:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I assume that this section is inspired by Reginheim:
First of all it is unreferenced and begins with a weasel term and secondly it reminds of Reginheim's entry. I have skimmed through Reginheim and I must say that although it is commendable that people present their own theories on homepages, the information we add on WP should abide by WP:reliable sources.-- Berig ( talk) 12:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The reason I originally deleted the ref to Reginheim is that the author says some scholars believe Nehalennia=Nerthus, but does not identify any of them. If there is any scholarly support for this theory, the statement should be referenced directly to the relevant scholar or scholars. If there is no such support, the section headed Nehalennia is speculation, and should be deleted. Rsradford ( talk) 17:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is Ansuharijaz's credentials (found on the Reginheim site). Honestly going by our WP rules, they are kind of vague, has he been "vetted" and is he "mainstream" enough to be used. I would say yes? "Greetings visitor, I am Ansuharijaz and I have created most of this site in 2002 and 2003, the building started on June 2002 ...I was born in 1981 in a small town in the Netherlands and have been interested in history since I was a little boy, during my childhood I was always fascinated by the ancient legends and fairy tales ... and like many other people I was in search of my roots, when I got older I started searching for the answers to my questions and I wanted to know who my Germanic ancestors were...Therefore I decided to create this site on which I shall try to provide accurate and historical information ...please don't be shy to email me if you have any further questions. Enjoy exploring the wondrous world of our ancestors." Goldenrowley ( talk) 02:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone's taken rather a high hand and deleted about half the article. That's what you get for not giving sources for every statement, I suppose. So tiresome, really. Shall we pull together and get some references in? -- Wetman ( talk) 13:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I see someone's tagged the present translation with a "citation demanded" tag. Would the H. Mattingly and S. Hanford translation (Penguin 1986) be acceptable? Before I take the trouble of hand-transcribing the Nerthus passage I want to be sure that it won't be reverted by someone, wasting my labor. -- Wetman ( talk) 13:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I think I found a better translation but someone reverted it back almost immediately... I propose the translation I found as follows. I thought it was better because it was done in 1877, and because I was alarmed to find the translation we were using mispelled half the tribe names in the 1st sentence. Proposed:
(English translation) There follow in order the Reudignians, and Aviones, and Angles, and Varinians, and Eudoses, and Suardones and Nuithones; all defended by rivers or forests. Nor in one of these nations does aught remarkable occur, only that they universally join in the worship of Herthum [Nerthum]; that is to say, the Mother Earth. Her they believe to interpose in the affairs of man, and to visit countries. In an island of the ocean stands the wood Castum: in it is a chariot dedicated to the Goddess, covered over with a curtain, and permitted to be touched by none but the Priest. Whenever the Goddess enters this her holy vehicle, he perceives her; and with profound veneration attends the motion of the chariot, which is always drawn by yoked cows. Then it is that days of rejoicing always ensue, and in all places whatsoever which she descends to honour with a visit and her company, feasts and recreation abound. They go not to war; they touch no arms; fast laid up is every hostile weapon; peace and repose are then only known, then only beloved, till to the temple the same priest reconducts the Goddess when well tired with the conversation of mortal beings. Anon the chariot is washed and purified in a secret lake, as also the curtains; nay, the Deity herself too, if you choose to believe it. In this office it is slaves who minister, and they are forthwith doomed to be swallowed up in the same lake. Hence all men are possessed with mysterious terror; as well as with a holy ignorance what that must be, which none see but such as are immediately to perish. --Tacitus, Germania, 40, translated 1877 by Church and Brodribb. [1]
Proposed by Goldenrowley ( talk) 02:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The last version of the article contained the following claim:
The second sentence is argumentative, and accordingly I have deleted it. If the McTurk cite is going to support the first sentence, more detail is needed. McTurk did not write the book in question; he edited this collection of essays by a variety of Old Norse scholars. Can anyone give a title, author, and page reference for an article in this book that supports the sentence above? Rsradford ( talk) 21:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi Rorik, I have provided the exact page numbers you lacked in the current revision, I own both books. If you have a question regarding them, do not hestitate to ask. I'm happy to help. Wetman has correctly supplied the title of the Orton essay. Why not just buy a copy of the books, they are not difficult to obtain. Don't you run some sort of library out there on the left coast? Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 05:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Intelligent people know that new books are not quoted on Googlebooks in any meaningful way. As you accepted the page numbers I provided, there is no point in lecturing me on proper citation. Wikipedia is a team effort. Truth be known, I have cleaned up a number of your messes in the last months as well. If the McTurk book was really on Googlebooks as you suggest, you would have had no trouble finding the name of Orton's essay and citing the page numbers, rather than leaving an underscore after the "p." and fishing for the title. It is also incorrect to say that McKinnell agrees with Grimm, he doesn't, that's your unsourced opinion. (If not, please provide a source). McKinnell makes a convincing argument independent of Grimm. I have now included both in the entry so you may see the difference. McKinnell's quote on the manuscript evidence for and the etymology of the name Nerthus, clearly belongs in the etymology section, not buried in the footnotes. If you wish to provide Motz's argument as well, I have no objection. The broken quote by Simek is inadequate and should otherwise be removed. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 22:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
It looks like we have another edit war going on here. RSRadford keeps reverting my revisions, in favor of promoting a laudatory comment toward Lotte Motz's article "Nerthus: a New Approach" making it look as if 21st century scholars are in agreement with the conclusions of 19th century scholar Jakob Grimm, which suggests that no research has been conducted since that time. This is verifably false. If you compare the statements of Grimm and McKinnell which I provided in my most recent revision (immediately reverted), you will note that McKinnell doesn't mention Grimm and certainly doesn't rubberstamp Grimm's reading, as the current revision suggests. This is original research being promoted elsewhere by the same editor.
The statements of Grimm and McKinnell are both relevant and show the reader the historical progression of ideas. Motz was not a linguist [her training was in German and Old English], and her observation that the manuscripts don't all say "Nerthum" is hardly original, and certainly not "new". Both Grimm and McKinnell discuss their differing reasons for accepting the reading "Nerthum" (Nerthus) among the mss. reading as their quoted works, now excised, show.
Undue credit is being given to Motz's novelty article. The statement by Simek is quoted from an introductory biographical sketch of Motz published in a work memeorializing her. In his scholarly works, Simek says that "The earth mother Nerthus in Tacitus, Gmc. Nerþus, is exactly the same form of the name which would correspond to the ON god Njorðr." (Dictionary of Norse Mythology, p. 230). Similarly, Andy Orchard (1997) says "The name Nerthus readily recalls that of the god Njörd" (Dictionary of Old Norse Myth and Legend, p. 117). Peter Orton (2005) says "He describes the cult of the goddess Nerthus", "Tacitus glosses the Latinized name Nerthus as terra mater," and "it is not inconceivable that Njörðr and Nerthus represent twin sibling deities."
None of these general reference works make mention of the alternate readings, which were new to Motz apparently, precisely because these are not accepted based on sound linguistic principles, Motz was obviously unaware of. Her statement that Grimm chose the name Nerthus precisely because it corresponded to Njörðr demonstrates this ignorance. Grimm chose the reading Nerthus, based on his knowledge of linguistics as he states in the excised quote. There is no reason to delete it, other than to hide these facts. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 03:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Does any objective reader / editor / administrator find the following detailed linguistic analysis at all relevant to an article on Nerthus, other than in a footnote?
Rsradford ( talk) 17:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I have gone back and restored and summarized Grimm's view. This is necessary since there is a tendency by one editor to promote Motz's view that Grimm chose the reading Nerthus precisely because it corresponds to Njördr, which is clearly not the case according to Grimm's own words. I also removed Simek's laudatory comment toward Motz. Since Simek gives no specific examples of why he felt Motz's 1992 article added anything significant to the discussion, it has no business in a general entry on Nerthus. I suggest the editor in question move it to the Lotte Motz entry, where it belongs, if at all. I also see no reason to quote Polemé at length, since neither his nor Motz's view were ever generally accepted. I also restored the citation for Nerthus being the generally accepted reading, and reduced the spin in the previous summary of McKinnell's clear statements to this effect. McKinnell's views are not a fringe opinion like Motz's and Poleme's. They are the mainstream view. If necessary I can cite a number of modern sources that accept the reading Nerthus without question to demonstrate this point. I don't believe this is necessary, however, unless someone wishes to challenge this rather obvious point. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 06:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Strangely, editor RSRadford continues to restore a version which boldly promotes the views of Lotte Motz. Motz's view probably does not belong in the 'etymology' section at all as her views simply restate the raw manuscript readings, but in the interest of cooperation, I have now summarized her view within that section. The quote by Simek, really doesn't say anything of significance, and as already noted, Simek does not support Motz's view in his independently published works. I have re-edited the section to more accurately reflect the consensus of modern scholarship. If Motz's minority view is to be retained in the entry in any detail, it is best placed in the 'theories' section, alongside those of Viktor Rydberg and others, as they are not etymological arguments. Finnrekkr ( talk) 17:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no valid reason to quote Simek's view that Motz's theory "opened up new paths of thought" in the article. Clearly, it didn't. Motz proposed taking the manuscript variants of the name Nerthus at face value, regardless of the textual evidence for their accuracy and validity. In the decade since she published this argument, no one of any importance has taken it seriously or used it as a "point of departure". As noted, even Simek doesn't take this view seriously in his own work. Nor does he give any indication of how or where exactly her theory "opened up new paths of thought." It's an empty complement from a biographical sketch of Motz published in a memorial festschrist. There Simek acknowledges that he was her personal friend. The view that Motz had "influence on the younger generation of scholars" is original research. The same view is currently being promoted on the discussion page of the Lotte entry. There the administrator has rejected these attempts outright. Does anyone else see the value of inserting this empty statement here? Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 14:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Why are we giving space in this article to Viktor Rydberg's imaginary "identification" of Nerthus with Jord? No real scholar has ever bought into this nonsense, and repeating it here seems to give it undeserved credence, in addition to misleading uneducated readers. It carries the same weight as something one might find in a comic book. Rsradford ( talk) 16:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi Bloodofox. I think this is the best solution. Thank you for cleaning up the article. I have now added the theories of Grimm and Rydberg to the Theories section in chronological order. I have no objection to the theories of Polomé and Motz being added alongside these. I do object, however, to the addition of Simek's quote because it is obviously a flattering statement included in a memorial, not supported by evidence there or in Simek's works. The theory that Nerthus was a hermaphrodite is also a minority view that received some attention when it was first proposed, but now is generally rejected. I think this theory should also be relegated to the Theories section. The modern opinion holds that Nerthus (Earth) and Njordr (Sea) were worshipped as a brother sister pair. Several scholars since 1995 state this clearly with supporting evidence. Orton's view, of course, is a peer-reviewed summary of the current scholarship, representing the mainstream view. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 22:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
If we could quote McKinnell here, I think we would better frame the hermaphrodite argument. McKinnell notes that the best manuscript reading gives the form Nerthum, which yields a masculine Nerthus or a neuter gender, not the expected female gender. Thus one scholar in the 1960s or '70s, whose name escapes me at the moment, suggested that Nerthus (female) had changed sex and become Njörðr (male) in the time between Taictus Germania, c. 100 AD, and the Icelandic Eddic Poems, c. 1000 AD—. The theory was mentioned for five or ten years and then basically rejected in favor of a male-female set of twins. This argument was heavily fueled by the statement in Lokasennna 36, that Njördr's sister was the mother of his childen, supported by Snorri in Heimskringla, Ynglingasaga, ch. 4. This argument is the gold standard today. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 22:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. And better yet, I say we just find and cite the actual scholar who first purposed this theory as a a solution to the problem of a masculine name form (Nerthum) for a female diety (Terra mater, Mother Earth), as well as citing the subsequent scholars who critiqued or repeated it. No need to generalize. A couple of scholars remark that the name Skadi, also associated with Njord, also is masculine in form. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 16:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I've substituted the sentence:
Njörðr is often identified with the Vanir god Njörðr
with this one:
Nerthus is often identified with the Vanir god Njörðr
I suppose that's the right correction but I'm not sure. Could anyone check? J alo 15:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The following sourced text was anonymously deleted (by an "expert" as usual); I have returned it. Deleting is not always editing. However, Nerthus is not directly linked. Other opinions might be reported (and cited) to balance this, or does it not belong at all? Wetman ( talk) 23:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC):
Lotte Motz proposed that the Germanic goddess described by Tacitus may not have been called Nerthus at all, stating her opinion that Grimm selected the name Nerthus from among the manuscript readings precisely because it bore an etymological resemblance to Njörðr Since there is only one surviving manuscript of Tacitus' Germania how can there be variant readings? See also the article Lotte Motz. Id it possible that editors have it backward: that Motz suggests Grimm selected the name Njörðr from among the manuscript readings precisely because it bore an etymological resemblance to Nerthus? Direct quote would help. -- Wetman ( talk) 04:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
Is the name really unattested? "Nerthus" seems like a Latin speaker who had a lisp. "Njörðr", I am sure there is good reason for this interpretation but it doesn't seem a sure thing. *Nerþuz is um. People at that time spoke "proto-Germanic"? Come again, I'm not up on the linguistics but that seems flakey too. Is this the best we have, and there is no other mention or piece of information? Maybe the name is wrong because it was a real name, not a linguistic construction. Närsys maybe? *shrug* Seems like there must be more speculation on this. No documentation in all those scrolls? No rune stones? Unfortunate. Obotlig ☣ interrogate 08:26, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Or look at the Swedish words:
Given the propensity for puns, nicknames, double entendre, etc., I have no idea how any attempt at reconstructing this name was made. And if she was from Gotland? They still speak a different dialect. Obotlig ☣ interrogate 08:54, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Bloodofox:There is a quote which reads: "strange has been the history of this goddess Nerthus in modern times. Sixteenth century scholars found irresistible the temptation to emend the name of 'Mother Earth' into Herthum, which nineteen century century scholars further improved into Hertham, Ertham. For many years this false goddess drove out the rightful deity from the fortieth chapter of Germania".
The text "nineteen century century" looks wrong, but I don't want to correct it without access to the source. Thank you, SchreiberBike | ⌨ 00:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Tacitus did not say the Angles were Suevi in Germania (Chpt 40) at all. I removed this, and edited it to say that the Angles were distinguished by worship of Mother Earth, which is what he DID say.
Unlinked "priest of state" to Godhi, the Icelandic Godhi is not relevant to the Germanic paganism of the Iron Age. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.97.211.185 ( talk) 20:15, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
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I have tried to pick together what information I can find about Nerthus. I find the reasoning logical, but that can of course be disputed. I you find the information contradictory or simply wrong, please make a contribution Wiglaf
I have trouble understanding this last sentence: "Slaves do this ministry and are then swallowed by the same lake: hence a mysterious terror and an ignorance full of reverence as to what that may be which men see only to die." Does this mean that the thralls sacrificed themselves in a ritual?
I added the paragraph "It should also be noted that the same root as in Nerthus …" and so on. I used “Svitjod, resor till Sveriges ursprung” by Swedish archaeologist Mats G. Larsson as main reference here. Salleman 16:10, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I found the following website which is, upon brief inspection, a verbatim copy of this article. I'm not sure which came first, but I thought I'd bring it to everyone's attention:
http://experts.about.com/e/n/ne/Nerthus.htm
I made some comments inside the article inside <> editor marks. Inside Etmology, what do the names of other Gods have to do with the etymology of the name, Nerthus? The names don't sound etymologicaly close, to me. What does the war of the Gods have to do with Nerthus? The relevance is missing. Goldenrowley ( talk) 02:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I assume that this section is inspired by Reginheim:
First of all it is unreferenced and begins with a weasel term and secondly it reminds of Reginheim's entry. I have skimmed through Reginheim and I must say that although it is commendable that people present their own theories on homepages, the information we add on WP should abide by WP:reliable sources.-- Berig ( talk) 12:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The reason I originally deleted the ref to Reginheim is that the author says some scholars believe Nehalennia=Nerthus, but does not identify any of them. If there is any scholarly support for this theory, the statement should be referenced directly to the relevant scholar or scholars. If there is no such support, the section headed Nehalennia is speculation, and should be deleted. Rsradford ( talk) 17:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is Ansuharijaz's credentials (found on the Reginheim site). Honestly going by our WP rules, they are kind of vague, has he been "vetted" and is he "mainstream" enough to be used. I would say yes? "Greetings visitor, I am Ansuharijaz and I have created most of this site in 2002 and 2003, the building started on June 2002 ...I was born in 1981 in a small town in the Netherlands and have been interested in history since I was a little boy, during my childhood I was always fascinated by the ancient legends and fairy tales ... and like many other people I was in search of my roots, when I got older I started searching for the answers to my questions and I wanted to know who my Germanic ancestors were...Therefore I decided to create this site on which I shall try to provide accurate and historical information ...please don't be shy to email me if you have any further questions. Enjoy exploring the wondrous world of our ancestors." Goldenrowley ( talk) 02:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone's taken rather a high hand and deleted about half the article. That's what you get for not giving sources for every statement, I suppose. So tiresome, really. Shall we pull together and get some references in? -- Wetman ( talk) 13:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I see someone's tagged the present translation with a "citation demanded" tag. Would the H. Mattingly and S. Hanford translation (Penguin 1986) be acceptable? Before I take the trouble of hand-transcribing the Nerthus passage I want to be sure that it won't be reverted by someone, wasting my labor. -- Wetman ( talk) 13:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I think I found a better translation but someone reverted it back almost immediately... I propose the translation I found as follows. I thought it was better because it was done in 1877, and because I was alarmed to find the translation we were using mispelled half the tribe names in the 1st sentence. Proposed:
(English translation) There follow in order the Reudignians, and Aviones, and Angles, and Varinians, and Eudoses, and Suardones and Nuithones; all defended by rivers or forests. Nor in one of these nations does aught remarkable occur, only that they universally join in the worship of Herthum [Nerthum]; that is to say, the Mother Earth. Her they believe to interpose in the affairs of man, and to visit countries. In an island of the ocean stands the wood Castum: in it is a chariot dedicated to the Goddess, covered over with a curtain, and permitted to be touched by none but the Priest. Whenever the Goddess enters this her holy vehicle, he perceives her; and with profound veneration attends the motion of the chariot, which is always drawn by yoked cows. Then it is that days of rejoicing always ensue, and in all places whatsoever which she descends to honour with a visit and her company, feasts and recreation abound. They go not to war; they touch no arms; fast laid up is every hostile weapon; peace and repose are then only known, then only beloved, till to the temple the same priest reconducts the Goddess when well tired with the conversation of mortal beings. Anon the chariot is washed and purified in a secret lake, as also the curtains; nay, the Deity herself too, if you choose to believe it. In this office it is slaves who minister, and they are forthwith doomed to be swallowed up in the same lake. Hence all men are possessed with mysterious terror; as well as with a holy ignorance what that must be, which none see but such as are immediately to perish. --Tacitus, Germania, 40, translated 1877 by Church and Brodribb. [1]
Proposed by Goldenrowley ( talk) 02:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The last version of the article contained the following claim:
The second sentence is argumentative, and accordingly I have deleted it. If the McTurk cite is going to support the first sentence, more detail is needed. McTurk did not write the book in question; he edited this collection of essays by a variety of Old Norse scholars. Can anyone give a title, author, and page reference for an article in this book that supports the sentence above? Rsradford ( talk) 21:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi Rorik, I have provided the exact page numbers you lacked in the current revision, I own both books. If you have a question regarding them, do not hestitate to ask. I'm happy to help. Wetman has correctly supplied the title of the Orton essay. Why not just buy a copy of the books, they are not difficult to obtain. Don't you run some sort of library out there on the left coast? Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 05:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Intelligent people know that new books are not quoted on Googlebooks in any meaningful way. As you accepted the page numbers I provided, there is no point in lecturing me on proper citation. Wikipedia is a team effort. Truth be known, I have cleaned up a number of your messes in the last months as well. If the McTurk book was really on Googlebooks as you suggest, you would have had no trouble finding the name of Orton's essay and citing the page numbers, rather than leaving an underscore after the "p." and fishing for the title. It is also incorrect to say that McKinnell agrees with Grimm, he doesn't, that's your unsourced opinion. (If not, please provide a source). McKinnell makes a convincing argument independent of Grimm. I have now included both in the entry so you may see the difference. McKinnell's quote on the manuscript evidence for and the etymology of the name Nerthus, clearly belongs in the etymology section, not buried in the footnotes. If you wish to provide Motz's argument as well, I have no objection. The broken quote by Simek is inadequate and should otherwise be removed. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 22:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
It looks like we have another edit war going on here. RSRadford keeps reverting my revisions, in favor of promoting a laudatory comment toward Lotte Motz's article "Nerthus: a New Approach" making it look as if 21st century scholars are in agreement with the conclusions of 19th century scholar Jakob Grimm, which suggests that no research has been conducted since that time. This is verifably false. If you compare the statements of Grimm and McKinnell which I provided in my most recent revision (immediately reverted), you will note that McKinnell doesn't mention Grimm and certainly doesn't rubberstamp Grimm's reading, as the current revision suggests. This is original research being promoted elsewhere by the same editor.
The statements of Grimm and McKinnell are both relevant and show the reader the historical progression of ideas. Motz was not a linguist [her training was in German and Old English], and her observation that the manuscripts don't all say "Nerthum" is hardly original, and certainly not "new". Both Grimm and McKinnell discuss their differing reasons for accepting the reading "Nerthum" (Nerthus) among the mss. reading as their quoted works, now excised, show.
Undue credit is being given to Motz's novelty article. The statement by Simek is quoted from an introductory biographical sketch of Motz published in a work memeorializing her. In his scholarly works, Simek says that "The earth mother Nerthus in Tacitus, Gmc. Nerþus, is exactly the same form of the name which would correspond to the ON god Njorðr." (Dictionary of Norse Mythology, p. 230). Similarly, Andy Orchard (1997) says "The name Nerthus readily recalls that of the god Njörd" (Dictionary of Old Norse Myth and Legend, p. 117). Peter Orton (2005) says "He describes the cult of the goddess Nerthus", "Tacitus glosses the Latinized name Nerthus as terra mater," and "it is not inconceivable that Njörðr and Nerthus represent twin sibling deities."
None of these general reference works make mention of the alternate readings, which were new to Motz apparently, precisely because these are not accepted based on sound linguistic principles, Motz was obviously unaware of. Her statement that Grimm chose the name Nerthus precisely because it corresponded to Njörðr demonstrates this ignorance. Grimm chose the reading Nerthus, based on his knowledge of linguistics as he states in the excised quote. There is no reason to delete it, other than to hide these facts. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 03:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Does any objective reader / editor / administrator find the following detailed linguistic analysis at all relevant to an article on Nerthus, other than in a footnote?
Rsradford ( talk) 17:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I have gone back and restored and summarized Grimm's view. This is necessary since there is a tendency by one editor to promote Motz's view that Grimm chose the reading Nerthus precisely because it corresponds to Njördr, which is clearly not the case according to Grimm's own words. I also removed Simek's laudatory comment toward Motz. Since Simek gives no specific examples of why he felt Motz's 1992 article added anything significant to the discussion, it has no business in a general entry on Nerthus. I suggest the editor in question move it to the Lotte Motz entry, where it belongs, if at all. I also see no reason to quote Polemé at length, since neither his nor Motz's view were ever generally accepted. I also restored the citation for Nerthus being the generally accepted reading, and reduced the spin in the previous summary of McKinnell's clear statements to this effect. McKinnell's views are not a fringe opinion like Motz's and Poleme's. They are the mainstream view. If necessary I can cite a number of modern sources that accept the reading Nerthus without question to demonstrate this point. I don't believe this is necessary, however, unless someone wishes to challenge this rather obvious point. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 06:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Strangely, editor RSRadford continues to restore a version which boldly promotes the views of Lotte Motz. Motz's view probably does not belong in the 'etymology' section at all as her views simply restate the raw manuscript readings, but in the interest of cooperation, I have now summarized her view within that section. The quote by Simek, really doesn't say anything of significance, and as already noted, Simek does not support Motz's view in his independently published works. I have re-edited the section to more accurately reflect the consensus of modern scholarship. If Motz's minority view is to be retained in the entry in any detail, it is best placed in the 'theories' section, alongside those of Viktor Rydberg and others, as they are not etymological arguments. Finnrekkr ( talk) 17:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no valid reason to quote Simek's view that Motz's theory "opened up new paths of thought" in the article. Clearly, it didn't. Motz proposed taking the manuscript variants of the name Nerthus at face value, regardless of the textual evidence for their accuracy and validity. In the decade since she published this argument, no one of any importance has taken it seriously or used it as a "point of departure". As noted, even Simek doesn't take this view seriously in his own work. Nor does he give any indication of how or where exactly her theory "opened up new paths of thought." It's an empty complement from a biographical sketch of Motz published in a memorial festschrist. There Simek acknowledges that he was her personal friend. The view that Motz had "influence on the younger generation of scholars" is original research. The same view is currently being promoted on the discussion page of the Lotte entry. There the administrator has rejected these attempts outright. Does anyone else see the value of inserting this empty statement here? Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 14:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Why are we giving space in this article to Viktor Rydberg's imaginary "identification" of Nerthus with Jord? No real scholar has ever bought into this nonsense, and repeating it here seems to give it undeserved credence, in addition to misleading uneducated readers. It carries the same weight as something one might find in a comic book. Rsradford ( talk) 16:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi Bloodofox. I think this is the best solution. Thank you for cleaning up the article. I have now added the theories of Grimm and Rydberg to the Theories section in chronological order. I have no objection to the theories of Polomé and Motz being added alongside these. I do object, however, to the addition of Simek's quote because it is obviously a flattering statement included in a memorial, not supported by evidence there or in Simek's works. The theory that Nerthus was a hermaphrodite is also a minority view that received some attention when it was first proposed, but now is generally rejected. I think this theory should also be relegated to the Theories section. The modern opinion holds that Nerthus (Earth) and Njordr (Sea) were worshipped as a brother sister pair. Several scholars since 1995 state this clearly with supporting evidence. Orton's view, of course, is a peer-reviewed summary of the current scholarship, representing the mainstream view. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 22:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
If we could quote McKinnell here, I think we would better frame the hermaphrodite argument. McKinnell notes that the best manuscript reading gives the form Nerthum, which yields a masculine Nerthus or a neuter gender, not the expected female gender. Thus one scholar in the 1960s or '70s, whose name escapes me at the moment, suggested that Nerthus (female) had changed sex and become Njörðr (male) in the time between Taictus Germania, c. 100 AD, and the Icelandic Eddic Poems, c. 1000 AD—. The theory was mentioned for five or ten years and then basically rejected in favor of a male-female set of twins. This argument was heavily fueled by the statement in Lokasennna 36, that Njördr's sister was the mother of his childen, supported by Snorri in Heimskringla, Ynglingasaga, ch. 4. This argument is the gold standard today. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 22:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. And better yet, I say we just find and cite the actual scholar who first purposed this theory as a a solution to the problem of a masculine name form (Nerthum) for a female diety (Terra mater, Mother Earth), as well as citing the subsequent scholars who critiqued or repeated it. No need to generalize. A couple of scholars remark that the name Skadi, also associated with Njord, also is masculine in form. Jack the Giant-Killer ( talk) 16:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I've substituted the sentence:
Njörðr is often identified with the Vanir god Njörðr
with this one:
Nerthus is often identified with the Vanir god Njörðr
I suppose that's the right correction but I'm not sure. Could anyone check? J alo 15:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The following sourced text was anonymously deleted (by an "expert" as usual); I have returned it. Deleting is not always editing. However, Nerthus is not directly linked. Other opinions might be reported (and cited) to balance this, or does it not belong at all? Wetman ( talk) 23:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC):
Lotte Motz proposed that the Germanic goddess described by Tacitus may not have been called Nerthus at all, stating her opinion that Grimm selected the name Nerthus from among the manuscript readings precisely because it bore an etymological resemblance to Njörðr Since there is only one surviving manuscript of Tacitus' Germania how can there be variant readings? See also the article Lotte Motz. Id it possible that editors have it backward: that Motz suggests Grimm selected the name Njörðr from among the manuscript readings precisely because it bore an etymological resemblance to Nerthus? Direct quote would help. -- Wetman ( talk) 04:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
Is the name really unattested? "Nerthus" seems like a Latin speaker who had a lisp. "Njörðr", I am sure there is good reason for this interpretation but it doesn't seem a sure thing. *Nerþuz is um. People at that time spoke "proto-Germanic"? Come again, I'm not up on the linguistics but that seems flakey too. Is this the best we have, and there is no other mention or piece of information? Maybe the name is wrong because it was a real name, not a linguistic construction. Närsys maybe? *shrug* Seems like there must be more speculation on this. No documentation in all those scrolls? No rune stones? Unfortunate. Obotlig ☣ interrogate 08:26, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Or look at the Swedish words:
Given the propensity for puns, nicknames, double entendre, etc., I have no idea how any attempt at reconstructing this name was made. And if she was from Gotland? They still speak a different dialect. Obotlig ☣ interrogate 08:54, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Bloodofox:There is a quote which reads: "strange has been the history of this goddess Nerthus in modern times. Sixteenth century scholars found irresistible the temptation to emend the name of 'Mother Earth' into Herthum, which nineteen century century scholars further improved into Hertham, Ertham. For many years this false goddess drove out the rightful deity from the fortieth chapter of Germania".
The text "nineteen century century" looks wrong, but I don't want to correct it without access to the source. Thank you, SchreiberBike | ⌨ 00:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Tacitus did not say the Angles were Suevi in Germania (Chpt 40) at all. I removed this, and edited it to say that the Angles were distinguished by worship of Mother Earth, which is what he DID say.
Unlinked "priest of state" to Godhi, the Icelandic Godhi is not relevant to the Germanic paganism of the Iron Age. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.97.211.185 ( talk) 20:15, 20 April 2022 (UTC)