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Their supporters are frequently low-income young men who blame their or their society's problems on immigrants and a presumed Jewish conspiracy.
I have a small quibble with this. Their members are generally as described, but their supporters, both ideological and financial, are often quite wealthy and/or politically involved. -- April
I've cut : "However, more mainstreeam organisations such as the FN and Vlaams Blok strong refute this description." It was writen in the previous para. : "no political party of significant importance will describe itself as neo-nazi." I think this is somewhat redundant. Ericd 15:41, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I've always thought that describing the Front National as neo-nazi misses the point and banalizes "nazism" up to the point where it's meaningless. Still, some people argue that they are neo-nazis, so we should mention that. David.Monniaux 15:49, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Should mention important role of neo-Nazi &c. music. -- Daniel C. Boyer 15:36, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I think the article should mention whether the party is openly neo-Nazi or whether its a label applied to them by their apponents. Those of you who know more about the subject please say whether the party is openly Nazi or not.
Italy
USA
UK
Other countries
Saul Taylor 07:26, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
--*note: Very few groups, even amongst those listed, would publicly describe themselves as being neo-Nazi. Firstly and foremostly, these groups aren't stupid and they know the idea of a Nazi makes people nervous. So few, in fact, label themselves that way, that the term is almost entirely within the domain of a slur used by opponents. Furthermore, if we are to definitely describe any of the linked organizations as 'neo-Nazi', it would be pertitent to mention WHY. Many groups appear Nazi simply because they share symbolism and ideas, and depending on how it is percieved, the term 'neo-Nazi' may or may not apply correctly.
I object against the inclusion of the link to the Jewwatch website. It's bad enough that these people peddle their views—linking to them just gives them wider exposure.
JFW |
T@lk
10:13, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Quote: "Jew Watch - This website criticizes modern 'Jewish/Zionist Supremacism'. It presents a neo-Nazi point of view." Point of view? Wouldn't "propaganda" be a better word?!-- Deadworm222 00:47, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
-- A personal objection, I find, is not a valid reason to restrict another person(s) access to vital information. By the same logic, any given person could disallow any number of other people access to Democratic Party literature because they deem it not a point of view, but propaganda. In fact, by that logic, anyone could deny anyone access to any information. We must be responsible with free media such as the internet, because, unlike controllable media which is subject to the law of the country it is based in (in this case, the First Amendment), free media relies on the self-restrain and maturity of those involved with the production thereof.
A question to the community. I have just added a long writeup about a part of the topic, the Russian neo-Nazis. I suspect that it should merit a separate page. So the question is, what exactly is our policy on splitting pages? If I put the long description into a separate article, what should I leave in this article? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Watcher 11:10, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
There is a lot of data to support adding the popular new age neofascist, David Icke to this page. I have a few paragraphs of information at this point, but I want to get some feedback on this idea if possible. If anyone would like to help, that would be great, too. -- Viriditas 01:37, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Where did the data on the Russian neo-nazis come from? It's quite striking information, but it also makes me suspicious somehow...some sources would be helpful. 137.22.1.33 11:26, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
-- I cannot provide, at the moment, any specific rock-solid references, but I know this section is largely correct. The reason it seems incredible is because in most of the West neo-Nazism is believed to be a fringe phenomenon, a bunch of cooks, if you will, and whether or not the 'common knowledge' of this matter is correct, it is a fact that in Russia neo-Nazism (at least, as defined by the article) is an extremely healthy, public movement. If one follows neo-Nazi discourse and literature, one finds that it is a very well acknowledged fact that Russia is a central piece on the neo-Nazi chess board, and an integral part of all plans for the future.
I disagree on LDPR. The party is nationalist ('patriotic') but has no affinity with nazis or Hitler figure. in fact, it is based solely of the charismatic figure of Zhirinovsky, who is more of a businessman of politics than a man of any particular principles. He is a orientologist by profession and the only coherent political idea he came up with was that Russia needs to establish closer ties with the Middle Eastern Arab states like Iran. He is clearly strongly anti-American and a male chauvinist, but in general he is just a skillful speaker who knows how to get the mob excited.
In general, Russian neo-nazis are RNE, NBP and multiple underground groups. As far as I know, both RNE and NBP are outlawed and marginalized. Also important to note that none of the neo-nazi parties have ever made it to the parliament. The communists is another case. Russian modern commnists have turned pure nationalists in early 1990s. The so-called 'red-brown plague' (as democrats would call them) or 'patriotic movement' (as they themselves would like to be called) is very peculiar case of the ideological marriage of nationalism and communism.
In the article: "claiming that the Holocaust slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews" Entire Europe had that many Jews. Is it posible that SOMEBODY survived. Have thay indeed killed everyone. 3 milions + 1 milion died from other reasons but between 1939-1945. (WWII). I hope you don't see as a Neo-Nazi... -- Milant 03:49, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Under the Neo-Nazi lists of political parties it has "One nation - Australia" with a link to information on the British One Nation party. Which is intended?
I'm resplitting the article, I posted warning that I was doing so before and there were no objections. Mel Etitis then reverted my changes and removed my reason why without discussing it. unsigned by user:Korhend
As I said before, the movements have moved away from each other largely, if not entirely. If you contact the American fascist movement, they will tell you just that. Most Neo-Fascist movements are avowedly anti-nazi, wanting to make such groups illegal. Even if the groups are similar, they are different enough to warrant a seperate article. Just as neo-militarists in Japan are considered a different group, the movements are largely seperate, and lack contact with one another. They should not be lumped together simply because they are both totalitarian right. Whatever similarities the regimes they are based off of had, the movements are unique and seperate enough that using them in the same article violates Non-Point of Veiw.- Korhend Apr 9
You would have to personally talk to them. However from the American Fascist parties website "We are not a neo-nazi party and we dont advocate racism or anti-semitism in any form. We are a Fascist Party and any American Citizen of whatever race, religion or creed can become members of our party. We dont say this to make good PR, this is a fact and we have many Hispanic members in our party." Though Nazis might be termed Neo-fascist if Naziism is included in the definition of Fascism, most describe themselves as Nazis and not fascists.-- Korhend
If I could secure a posted statement by Seth Tyrrsen on a site, would that qualify as sufficient?
Its not enough that the founder of the largest neo-fascist movement in america objects to it? Then who exactly is large enough if anyone. As for "saying anything" doesn't that apply to any one also? Are we to assume any politician is anti-semetic until proven otherwise? How exactly can one "Prove" that they are not anti-semitic?- Korhend
Can we establish the divide between neo-fascist and neo-nazi. A nazi and a fascist are not essentially the same thing. Its similiar to defining Stalinism as Communism. It is not accurate. A communist may or may not coinsider himself a Stalinist. Trotsky certainly wasn't! Likewise a fascist may or may not consider himself a Nazi.
I must apologize for the great delay for my reply, my computer wasn't working. General Francisco Franco's Falange Party was widely (and correctly) veiwed as Fascist. In america there is the American Christian Falangist party, which while racist is a pro-zionist nation. At the bottom of their page is a link to ARMDI. http://www.falangist.org/index.htm ARMDIs site describe it as "ARMDI, organized in 1940, is the exclusive fundraising organization in the United States for Magen David Adom (MDA), Israel’s equivalent to a Red Cross Society. ARMDI supports the MDA National Emergency Medical, Ambulance, Blood and Disaster Services which benefit Israel’s entire population." - Korhend
One Nation may be a pack of completely racist dickheads (and that would probably apply to the damn Queenslanders that vote for them too ;-P) but I don't think anyone seriously believes them to be neo-Nazis. Yes, they probably get called fascist Nazis by a lot of left wing voters in Australia, but that's more hyperbole than anything. Those lists need to be cleaned up.
How can Mussolini's movement be called neo-nazi, he was in power long before Hitler, or neo-fascist, as he invented fascism. A.K.A.47 21:48, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
A number of scholars of the "extreme right" in Europe make distinctions regarding the differences between neonazism, neofascism, and right-wing populism. Betz and Mudde for example. Buchanaatin in the U.S., for example, is called neofascist by some, but not neonazi. Front National in France is another example, as is de Benoist in France. I would like to attempt to put up a page Neofascism to accompnay the new page Neofascism and religion and detail the groups that might be considered neofascist, but are not accurately called neonazi. Also, note the spelling. It is gaining currency to distinguish the trends from original Fascism and Nazism.-- Cberlet 16:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
And the new page on Neo-Fascism is up as a stub.-- Cberlet 13:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And the new corporation of a littel 300 members ar colling them selves THE A.T.C- it means (Amsterdamse terror corps)Its a place in Holland and they are trying to become one of the bigggest gangs to become.
National Vanguard is now its own organization and separate from the National Alliance. -- Hremmnoth 29 June 2005 07:16 (UTC)
Now that George W. Bush has declared all liberals to be terrorist sympathizers is it time for us to declare him a neo-fascist?
June 23, 2005, marked a controversial statement from Karl Rove, when he said that "Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers." Conservatives, he said, "saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war."
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Neo-Fascism&redirect=no
The article says:
Is this just speculation, or is there evidence of this? The article only goes on to give a "good, though fictional, example". — Matt Crypto 11:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
This merge was proposed by User:Humus_sapiens. I'm disappointed to find he has offered no rationale here, since I was hoping to rebut it.
I don't see this as a good merge because Nazi skinheads have not only a neo-fascist aspect, but a skinhead one, and the two aspects are intertwined in their identity. Although they partly share origins and early history with both skinheads and neo-fascists, they have evolved separately from either group and have developed their own distinct cultural characteristics--although the current article merely hints at this fact. As a separate article, we can hope for more detail to reveal this at some time. On the other hand, if this article were merged into either Neo-Nazism or Skinhead, exploration of the Nazi skinhead subculture would seem out of place or out of balance with the article as a whole. The merge would effectively discourage potential editors from providing in-depth coverage of unique Nazi skinhead history and culture. I would rather wait a while, allowing time for the Nazi-Skinheads article to mature. -- Unconventional 08:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
In one sense this is a trivial point, but the article is all over the place in how it spells the phenomenon it talks about. I noticed all of these variants: "neo-nazi", "Neo-Nazi", "neo-Nazi", and "Neo Nazi". Can someone authoritative rule on which it should be so it can be cleaned up? Metamagician3000 00:19, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Discussions of the relationship between Fascism and socialism and Nazism and socialism keep appearing on multiple pages. On what page does the section on Nazism and socialism belong?
Fascism and ideology--- Nazism in relation to other concepts--- Fascism and socialism--- Nazism and socialism
Please discuss and vote on this dispute at this talk page]. Thanks. -- Cberlet 15:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
The Austrian section seems to be based largely on
Stiftung Dokumentationsarchiv des österreichischen Widerstandes / Anti-Defamation League (ed.): Brigitte Bailer-Galanda / Wolfgang Neugebauer, Incorrigibly Right. Right-Wing Extremists, "Revisionists" and Anti-Semites in Austrian Politics Today, Vienna-New York 1996, p. 5-21)
found online here.
Is there a copyright, or at least acknoledgement issue?
For example
Wikipedia
"The Austrian public saw itself confronted with the organized Right for the first time in 1959, on the occasion of the "Schiller Celebrations", when "national" (Pan-German) youth, sport and cultural organizations took to the streets. Within student and university bodies the so-called Burschenschaften and schlagende Verbindungen (fraternities of male uniformed students), the FPÖ's students' organization RFS and its graduate equivalent FAV (Freiheitliche Akademikerverbände) attained considerable influence.
In 1960, during the so-called "South Tyrol Crisis", such right-wing extremists, along with German Kameraden, gained widespread notoriety by involvement in terrorist acts ("freedom struggle") in Italy. Prominent among these was Norbert Burger, the ex-RFS leader and subsequent chairman of the Neo-Nazi NDP (Nationaldemokratische Partei). The influence which the extreme Right had gained in the universities became dramatically apparent five years later, during the so-called "Borodajkewycz Affair". Hundreds of students demonstrated in favour of the antisemitic university professor Borodajkewycz and were involved in street battles, in the course of which Ernst Kirchweger, a former concentration camp inmate, was beaten to death."
ADL
"The Austrian public saw itself confronted with the organized Right for the first time in 1959, on the occasion of the "Schiller Celebrations", when "national" (Pan-German) youth, sport and cultural organizations took to the streets. Within student and university bodies the so-called Burschenschaften and schlagende Verbindungen (fraternities of male uniformed students), the FPÖ's students' organization RFS and its graduate equivalent FAV (Freiheitliche Akademikerverbände) attained considerable influence. In 1960, during the so-called "South Tyrol Crisis", such right-wing extremists, along with German Kameraden, gained widespread notoriety by involvement in terrorist acts ("freedom struggle") in Italy. Prominent among these was Norbert Burger, the ex-RFS leader and subsequent chairman of the neo-Nazi NDP (Nationaldemokratische Partei). The influence which the extreme Right had gained in the universities became dramatically apparent five years later, during the so-called "Borodajkewycz Affair". Hundreds of students demonstrated in favour of the antisemitic university professor Borodajkewycz and were involved in street battles, in the course of which Ernst Kirchweger, a former concentration camp inmate, was beaten to death."
I think neo-nazism is disraceful and should be outlawed from the world
Excluded Pro Patria Union (Estonia) from the Neo-Nazism In Other Countries section. (I suppose random parties get often inserted in this list by people who just don't like them and think it would be a smart place to show their disapprovement.)-- Oop 21:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
There is just one thing I cannot understand. Why do American kids think they are right for Nazism when 99% of the times they do not fit the racial standards?
Nazism may be OK for us Europeans, but I hate how it is spreading faster than communism!
I'd also like to add that riots caused by American "nazis" are plain stupid from a European's point of view, they don't lead anywhere. I've seen that in over a million years of history of my continent.—Preceding unsigned comment added by SS-Handzar ( talk • contribs)
In the links listed as other neo nazis, the MNR is listed as NEO NAZI. France Fascism seem distinct from the ideology of Nazism despite some commonality of fact. I would classify MNR or FN as Fascist not neo nozi because their ideology is not really in the belief of Race superiority, but rather in the affirmance of France as a Nation and its priority.
Holocaust denial though is a common trend in Nationalist speech.
What a beautiful family. Good thing to see nationalist influences rising in Europe.
___________________________________
Well, I come from Croatia and I am surely not a Nazi or anything like that. I am shocked by the picture of a Croatian family (3 children, mother and father) in ustasha uniforms.
However, I must say I have never seen something like that in Croatia and in the Croatian newspapers or magazines neither. People who found this photo have done a very hard research. I am convinced, nevertheless, that such a photo could be found perheps in any European country. It may be also a simple "mise en scene" commissioned by somebody.
In the third place, I would like to stress that this photo promotes intolerance and hatred against Croatian people. It is not true that "many children are raised in ustasha tradition". Maybe those who wrote the article should be questioned about their own racism.
Nikola, physician, Split, Croatia
There is overreferencing in the section Neo-Nazism in Croatia, the reference [6] has no substance next to the text in the article: the article in Croatian talks about the graffiti of the Ustasha hailing "Za dom spremni", chetnick grafiti 4 c's around the cross as well as graffiti "Oslobodite Norca hrvatskog borca - komunjare - Gotovina - EU 1:0", te "Niste vi oslobađali Hrvatsku, pa nećete ni vladati - bando crvena" which relate to the Croatian generals Norac and Gotovina. This graffiti was found the main council building in Mursko Središće, so no Orthodox church was graffitied in this reference as well as the following: [7]. The other references do support the sentence and they are OK for referencing the point. [ FrontLine 22:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The article had the following, which was deleted and pasted here:
Proving the existence of a ready audience for fascist thought in Croatia, Mein Kampf was published and sold in the year of 1999 - in the number more than 600 copies in hardback within days at the remarkable price of 500 kuna (75 dollars each) - roughly equivalent to a week's average salary here. That time German foreign minister Joschka Fischer was prompted to press his Croatian opposite number Mate Granic to have Hitler's book banned in Croatia. [8].
You do not have to be a Muslim to own or read the Kuran, or a Cristian to own or read the Bible the problem was that the Mein Kampf was banned literature during the Yugoslav era. So does it make you a fascist to read or own a copy of Mein Kampf ?? Don't think so. The book Mein Kampf is available in many bookstores freely over the couter in: US, Canada, Australia as well as on Amazon.com, and other countries except Germany see: [9] , so many versions for the "ready audience for fascist" for anyone who can read English ??? Don't think so. FrontLine 03:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The previous sentence order was a bit of a mumbo-jumbo job, this no a bit better FrontLine 13:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding 2 links from http://index.hr that Purger, they prove just opposite from what Purger would like to prove. one of them is about a 14 year old kid being interogated from police for Ustasa graffiti, so this proves that there is zero-tolerance for Ustasa grafiti in Croatia. Thanks, Purger, nice work :))).
The litigation section in the article about Neo-Nazism in Croatia was almost a pure copy paste and it has no place there:
In 1999 a suit was filed at a court in San Franciso against the Vatican Bank (Institute for Religious Works) and against the Franciscan order, the Croatian Liberation Movement (the Ustashe), the National Bank of Switzerland and others. The suit was filed by Jewish, Ukrainian, Serb and Roma survivors, as well as relatives of victims and various organizations that together represent 300,000 World War II victims. The plaintiffs demanded accounting and restitution. One of the lawyers representing the plaintiffs is Jonathan Levy. "Many of the plaintiffs have been reluctant to be pictured, after all these years," says Levy. "Many are still terrified of the Ustashe, the Serbs particularly. Unlike the Nazi Party, the Ustashe still exist and have a party headquarters in Zagreb." [10]
FrontLine 15:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The litigation part was removed, as the reference to neo-nazism in Croatia was weak Vodomar 18:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The section:
In the late 1990's, an attempt was made to bring to the justice Nada Sakic who was a guardian at the Stara Gradiska concentration camp. Nada Sakic according to her accusers was known for her cruelty towards the prisoners and is reflected in diverse testimonies that were the basis for her extradition in in November 1998 to Croatia - where she was held until her release. Croatian government granted her Croatian citizenship. Mrs. Sakic, then 72, was never even indicted by the Croatian authorities. The Croatian government falsely claimed that no evidence or witnesses exist to indict Mrs. Sakic. However, the New York based Jasenovac Research Institute was in contact with Survivors living in Yugoslavia who had given eyewitness testimony to Mrs. Sakic's crimes at Stara Gradishka (part of the Jasenovac camps). At the First International Conference on Jasenovac in New York City in 1997 one of these Survivors, Mara Vejnovic, gave an eyewitness account of Nada Sakic's activities as a death camp commander. [11]
is a reflection of some failure of the Croatian judicial system, the trial od Dinko Šakić shows one end of the specturm and the Nada Šakić does not show Neo-Nazism.
FrontLine 15:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The Nada Šakić trial is no proof of neo-nazism in Croatia, it might be a poorly managed case by the Croatian judiciary. Vodomar 18:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Purger, I removed that enormous list of links you placed in the article. Some of them perhaps can go down at the bottom of the page in a references section, but the article doesn't really need such an enormous laundry list like that, especially when some looked like blogs. · Ka t efan0 (scribble) 19:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Laundry list of links - all the links listed below appear in the Article
Neo-nazism in Croatia and placing it in the main article makes it longer then necessary
Vodomar 22:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The above set of links are mostly connections to artiles in croatian newspapers and they are found in the main article Neo-Nazism in Croatia, this is unnecessary in he main article about Neo-Nazism. There is no value in that being in at the end of the article, as the section about Neo-Nazism in Croatia covers the ground and there is a specific article about Neo-Nazism in Croatia which has this link Vodomar 21:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
There are several problems with sources in "Neo-Nazism in Croatia" section.
1. These two links [12], [13]are given as a source for following statement: "Public appearance of the Ustashe veterans seen in Zadar and Slunj are tepidly condemned by some newspapers." However, these newspaper articles (from the same newspaper) are not talking about condemnation of "public appearance of the Ustashe veterans". They are "tepidly" condemning "public appearance…". So claim given in the article is original research.
2. For claim that: "Singing infamous Jasenovac i Gradiska Stara song which glorifies Ustashe and their genocide over Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies is sometimes heard even among schoolchildren, and treated by public with silence, sometimes affirmatively, of if unfavorable - more like as yelling or screaming in public." given source is a Usnet post [14]. However, Usenet posts are not acceptable as sources. [15]
3. For claim that: "In 2005 a number of Orthodox churches were sprayed with Serb hate graffiti" none of the following links [16], [17], [18] can verify it. -- Vision Thing -- 12:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
1. Read the
definition of original research:
"Original research is a term used on Wikipedia to refer to material added to articles by Wikipedia editors that has not been published already by a reputable source."
Claim that "public appearances of Ustatshe veterans… are tepidly condemned" is original research because it hasn't been published in any reputable source (AFAIK). -- Vision Thing -- 16:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
2. No, they can't. " Posts to bulletin boards and Usenet, wikis or messages left on blogs, are never acceptable as primary or secondary sources. Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Bulletin_boards.2C_wikis_and_posts_to_Usenet -- Vision Thing -- 16:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
3. Link to HRW report [19] you added doesn't mention any of claims listed above nor it connects persecution of Serbian minority with Neo-Nazis/Ustase. -- Vision Thing -- 16:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
4. This link [20] talks about Ustashe graffiti sprayed on Ortodox church, but it was one incident in 2004, not a number of incidents in 2005. -- Vision Thing -- 16:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Why reverting edits all the time without ever getting into a discussion about it ? Why have a long winded version, when a short version is sufficents in the article about Neo-Nazism, and you can let loose on the specific Neo-Nazism for a specific country, which is more appropriate. Vodomar 22:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Changed the following:
The paragraph on litigation:
In November 1999 a lawsuit was filled in Federal Court, San Francisco, CA where the plaintifs are of Serb, Jevish and Ukrainian background who survived the WWII concentation camps. The defendants are the Vatican Bank, Franciscan Order and the Croatian Liberation Movements who concealed assets looted by the Croatian Nazis from the concentration camps victims (Serbs, Jews, Ukrainians) between 1941-1945. As per Jonathan Levy, one of the plaintifs' lawyers, many of the plaintiffs have been reluctant to be pictured, and are still terrified of the Ustashe. The Serbs particularly, for unlike the Nazi Party, the Ustashe still exist and have a party headquarters in Zagreb. [22]
What is the point of having this, as the main point of this paragraph is: "many of the plaintiffs have been reluctant to be pictured, and are still terrified of the Ustashe. The Serbs particularly, for unlike the Nazi Party, the Ustashe still exist and have a party headquarters in Zagreb", so to take the fluff out it is best that this is rewritten as:
Many of Croatia's critics also claim that the country is favorable towards it's Nazi past, as there are organistions like Croatian Liberation Movements (Croatian Hrvatski oslobodilački pokret or HOP), which bears the same name as the organisation that was formed after the WWII by Ante Pavelić, and are registered and headquartered organisations in Croatia. Such presence according to Jonathan Levy still terrifies Serbs, who are many times reluctant to have their pictured or seen in court in fear of reprisals and intimidation, like in the recent joint case of WWII concentation camp survivors that was lodged with the US Federal Court case in San Francisco in 1999. [23] Vodomar 23:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, the section on Croatia is obviously full of emotional and political hot buttons. Let's edit one paragraph at a time for a short period of time. Also, it may be prudent to ask that this page be protected from anonymous URL edits. Anonymous editors can remain anonymous as to their "real" identity while registering here at Wiki so that they have some accountability. The last edit by Vision Thing was simply not vandalism.-- Cberlet 19:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Cberlet and have two things to add. Firstly, I advise the anonymous user not to make unwarranted accusations of vandalism. Wikipedia:Vandalism, which is official policy, says: While having large chunks of text you've written deleted, moved to the talk page, or substantially rewritten can sometimes feel like vandalism, it should not be confused with vandalism. Secondly, I advise him not to confuse any attack against Serbs in Croatia with Neo-Nazism. This applies to his first source above, which is exclusively about ethnic hatred, not Neo-Nazism. -- Zmaj 14:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed some references that are only about ethnic hatred and not about Neo-Nazism. -- Zmaj 14:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
NOTICE: 64.18.16.251 and a number of other users have been identified as sock puppets of Purger, see here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Purger. -- Zmaj 09:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Since the main problem here is not the accuracy of some parts of the text, but their relation to the subject, I propose opening a new page Anti-serbian sentiment in Croatia. Then, everything related to ethnic hatred, but unrelated to neo-Nazism (attacks on people from Serbia unrelated to neo-Ustasa etc.) could be moved there. We could also put links to this new page from Neo-Nazism in Croatia and from this page. What do you think?
One of the pictures has the caption:
What does multiracist mean? I think perhaps the caption should read "dystopian multiracial regime". Funkyj 18:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The paragraphs:
In 1998-9, an attempt was made to bring to justice Nada Sakic - who was a guard at the Stara Gradiska concentration camp. Nada Sakic, according to her accusers, was known for her cruelty towards the prisoners which is reflected in diverse testimonies that were the basis for her extradition in November 1998 to Croatia - where she was held until her release . The Croatian government granted her Croatian citizenship. Mrs. Sakic, then 72, was never even indicted by the Croatian authorities. The Croatian government falsely claimed that no evidence or witnesses exist to indict Mrs. Sakic. However, the New York based Jasenovac Research Institute was in contact with Survivors living in Yugoslavia who had given eyewitness testimony to Mrs. Sakic's crimes at Stara Gradishka (part of the Jasenovac camps). At the First International Conference on Jasenovac in New York City in 1997 one of these Survivors, Mara Vejnovic, gave an eyewitness account of Nada Sakic's activities as a death camp commander. [25]
In November 1999 a lawsuit was filed in Federal Court, San Francisco, CA where the plaintiffs are of Serb, Jewish and Ukrainian background. The plaintiffs are also survivors of the WWII Ustase concentration camps. The defendants are the Vatican Bank, the Franciscan Order and the Croatian Liberation Movements who concealed assets looted by the Croatian Nazis from their concentration camp victims (Serbs, Jews, Ukrainians) between 1941-1945. As per Jonathan Levy, one of the plaintiffs' lawyers, many of the plaintiffs have been reluctant to be photographed, and are still terrified of the Ustashe. Among Serbs, fear of the Ustashe is still particularly strong. For unlike the Nazi Party in Germany, the Ustashe still exists and has a party headquarters in Zagreb. [26]
Have nothing to do with Neo-Nazism and it's manifestation in Croatia, it is just padding and not to the point of the main article. As discussed before, the Nada Sakic misstrial migh be poor judiciary, and the lawsuit in the USA is just another example of padding the article with unecessary fluff, and grasping on anything that has a Ustasha/nazi word in it ! I need to repeat again the two paragraphs are unecessary, weak and not to the point Vodomar 01:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Is that so ?
"B'NAI B'RITH OFFICIAL DOESN'T DOUBT STATE ATTORNEY'S DECISION IS RIGHT Return to the month Index 03. 02. 1999. , 21:41H CET B'NAI B'RITH OFFICIAL DOESN'T DOUBT STATE ATTORNEY'S DECISION IS RIGHT WASHINGTON, Feb 3 (Hina) - The American Jewish organisation B'nai B'rith has no reason to doubt that the decision of the Croatian State Attorney's Office not to continue the proceedings against Nada Sakic is founded, B'nai B'rith's honorary international president Tommy Baer told Hina on Wednesday.
Baer said he believed the Croatian State Attorney would have requested that a trial of Nada Sakic begin, had there been enough evidence to support it.
Adding that only one out of 26 questioned witnesses had - indirectly - put Nada Sakic at the scene of horrid crimes (Stara Gradiska concentration camp), Baer said that, as a former US public prosecutor, he knew that it was not enough to issue an indictment.
Baer said his organisation was helping and had established cooperation with Croatian authorities in important issues, such as trials of war criminals from the time of Nazism.
In his capacity as president of B'nai B'rith, Bear had visited Croatia on two occasions, and in 1995 he met Croatian President Franjo Tudjman on the Brijuni isles.
Baer said his organisation did not have and therefore could not give to Croatian authorities any evidence or testimonies of witnesses on possible crimes committed by Nada Sakic.
Speaking about the alleged evidence Belgrade claimed to have, Bear wondered why Yugoslav authorities had not forwarded that evidence to Croatia.
He declined to comment on the views of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre regarding the proceedings that had been carried out against Nada Sakic in Croatia.
Commenting on a proposal by Simon Wiesenthal Centre director Ephraim Zuroff that Yugoslavia request Sakic's extradition, Baer said she was a Croatian citizen and he believed that, although such requests should be respected, Croatian laws did not allow for such a possibility.
It would be a different matter if Sakic did not remain in Croatia but, for example, returned to Argentina, he added.
President Tudjman has invited Tommy Baer to be an official observer at the trial of Dinko Sakic, commander of the World War II concentration camp Jasenovac.
Baer confirmed he would attend the trial adding that judicial authorities in Zagreb granted all requests he had made - from simultaneous translation to additional witnesses.
"
http://jagor.srce.hr/sakic/hinanews/arhiva/9902/hina-03-j.html
http://jagor.srce.hr/sakic/hinanews/arhiva/9903/hina-10-v.html
http://jagor.srce.hr/sakic/hinanews/arhiva/9903/hina-03-d.html
http://jagor.srce.hr/sakic/hinanews/arhiva/9910/hina-05-s.html
Can anyone in wikipedia create a new paragraph on the problem of Neo-Nazism in France? I will appreciate it, since France harbors a small undercurrent of anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi gangs. In the early 2000's, several incidents by neo-Nazis against French Jews and Jewish synagogues are reported. The French government wanted to take direct action against the attacks, but declined to really crack down or do anything. The percentage of hate incidents by neo-Nazis and neo-fascists in France is small, compared to what the French media and Jewish interest groups claim, were done by North African Muslims with a binge against Jews over the issue of Israel. The French public mood appears more quiet and fickle over anti-Semitism, but most right thinking French people oppose anti-Semitism and the French Republic tradition of inclusion forbids it as an attack on "fellow Frenchmen/citizens". But the topic is too hot to handle in France, some call it "taboo" and many dare to address anti-Semitism and neo-Nazis a real threat. Also to discuss the Alsatian Nazi problem in the German-speaking region of Alsace, where skinheads are on the rise and some far-right groups hold sympathy to WWII-era Nazism. Some carry a code word "Ich Allemagne" which translates to "I" in German with the French word for Germany. I doubt they want reunification with Germany or are certain the Alsatian Nazis were never terminated after the war. + 207.200.116.134 11:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I've semi-protected this article to protect it from the blocked User:Purger, who (having gone through a series of sockpuppets) is now using anonymous IP addresses from the 4.249.*.* range to avoid his blocks. Unfortunately I don't think I can block this range, as it corresponds to Level 3, a major US ISP - too much collateral damage. -- ChrisO 07:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Chris, if you can also revert the edits that were done by the 4.249.0.0/16 range, that have happened recently in light to the discussion points on this page. This will set a proper level playing field. Vodomar 23:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Neo-Nazis played a huge role in the late 20th century tabloid talk show craze. Many appeared on Jerry Springer. Geraldo had his nose broken in a televised brawl with Neo-nazis. Even the world's only black billionaire Oprah Winfrey confronted a skinhead in her audience(The best of Larry King page 371):
WINFREAY: "I just heard what you said. You just said 'I don't sit with monkeys. You think because she's black, because I'm black, we're monkeys?"
SKINHEAD: "That's a proven fact."
WINFREY: "That's a proven fact? It's a proven fact that I'm a monkey."
SKINHEAD: "Could be."
WINFREY: "Go ahead. Go ahead."
SKINHEAD: "First thing I want to get off my mind is-"
WINFREY: "No, I want to talk about this monkey stuff. No, no, no. I want to talk about the monkey business. I want to talk-"
Later when a riot threatened to break out half the studio audience ended up leaving the studio.
The section is not very neutral:
-- Konstable 06:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Since it is mentioned by the article, it should be linked from White_Aryan_Resistance.
Also, I found that the documentary, White Terror is relevant to this topic
http://enhancetv.com.au/details/displaytv.php?RecordId=12734370&database=Archive.fp5&layout=web_tv
Some of the informaiton may need to be integrated from
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ru%7Dnaz.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=DYM20041217&articleId=318
<incitement to murder removed>
Excuse me, but MHP is not even close to being neo nazi. It is just another right wing conservative party in Turkey, like the republican party in the usa or christian democrats in Germany. The people who maintain this page could at least check things up before resorting to slander of a respectable political organization that commands 10% of the electorate.
Edit this?
The article states:
A trial was held before the Bundesverfassungsgericht (Federal Constitution Court), the highest court in Germany, about the prohibition of the NPD (National Democratic Party), considered (though not proven to be) a Neo-Nazi party.
Yet it still continues to refer to the party as a Neo-Nazi organization, and there is an image showing an NPD rally which is caption as a "Neo-Nazi rally in Germany" thus the article appears to contradict itself. -- Nazrac 04:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I do believe it is the second sentence in the entire article, very true yet very POV... I'm going to remove it now, if anyone opposes this feel free to complain about it. Also, in the "Holocaust Denial" section there are more sneaky words which I am also deleting. If you want people to visit your site, make sure it is related and include a link in the appropriate section. Cissel 17:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The inclusion of several nationalist organisations on this page is inaccurate and renders the category as useless; in particular: British National Party (UK), Australia First Party (Australia), National Action (Australia), Patriotic Youth League (Australia) - none of which are "neo-nazi" parties. I would assume there are other misclassified examples here as well (as evidenced by reading through the above discussion).
To label nationalist groups as "neo-nazi" is as silly as labelling democratic socialist groups as "communist". This page needs to be cleaned up, with several organisations moved to the "nationalist" category [expertise needed].
It seems that biased commentators will classify any group with a political racial basis as "neo-nazi". Obviously, this is not the case, as evidenced by the "racist" nations who fought the Nazis in WW2 (Australia, USA; possibly Canada and UK). Wikipedia should be a bastion of political neutrality and facts, not a bastion of political bias and propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RedDawn ( talk • contribs) [actually, I did sign it, but it was rendered in a box, as I was not aware that one signed by typing four tildes]
1) The journalistic profession is dominated by multiculturalists and multiracialists, often with a political axe to grind, and therefore often use propaganda techniques to paint their political foes in a bad light. The use of the "neo-nazi" slander is a prime example of this. So-called "reputable media" are - in fact - not reputable, and giving their slant creedence is like giving creedence to Lenin's slant on Trotsky.
2) [directly applicable to the point Michalis Famelis makes above] The mainstream media do not label the Australia First Party as “neo-Nazi”, such name-calling (for that is what it is) comes from the globalists and Multiculturalists in their blogs, sites, etc.
As Peter Charles Henderson noted in his BA (Hons) thesis, A History of the Australian Extreme Right Since 1950:
“There is also a tendency to label groups with titles like 'neo-Nazi' as a form of censure even when the group has no links or sympathies toward Nazism. This name calling has originated not only on the left but on the right where terms like 'femi-Nazi', reputedly coined by US talk back radio personality Rush Limbaugh to describe feminists, has gained currency”. http://library.uws.edu.au/adt-NUWS/public/adt-NUWS20030924.134813/index.html (p.8) (see also pages 28-29) It should be noted that Henderson is a leftist (p.31) (all these pages are in the Introduction, 01Front.pdf). Peter Henderson is certainly a reputable source.
Therefore, the classification of the Australia First Party needs to be moved to “Category:Nationalist_parties”, not only for reasons of truth and clarity, but also to abide by Wikipedia guidelines. RedDawn 19:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I know, because I have paternal relatives in Krakow, that in Poland their is a strong neo-Nazi presence as a rejection of the former Communist government, maybe someone should mention that.
I'm JBAK, I just cannot be bothered to log-in, leave any responses to this on my user-page.
I'm seeing bits of vandalism spread across the page; I think it might be necessary to semi-protect this page until it can be cleared of at least blatant vandalism. -- akuyume T C 02:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Next there will be Pakistani Neo-Nazis!! They are fair, they are Caucasian and they have Aryan heritage!! Many have Greek heritage like the Pashtuns and the Kalasha!!DELETE THE IMAGE OF GREEK NEO-NAZIS NOW!!
There are Greek neonazis. They are Caucasian (their skin is white, you don't need to be blond to be caucasian) and yes, they have Aryan heritage. See also Hrisi Avgi. You are idiot if you believe that the Pashtuns and the Kalasha are Greeks. Have you ever seen a Greek person? If you have, you would have noticed that they are white. Mitsos 12:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let me explain about the Pashtuns and the Kalasha. The articles says that they are descendants of Alexander the Great's army. These people are only 10% Greek. Just think about it. Some soldiers of Alexander the Great stayed at Pakistan and married Pakistani women. Their children married Pakistanis too, and that continued for more than 1000 years!!! So, these people have far more Pakistani blood than Greek blood. Mitsos 13:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Many Greeks are not even White! Some look more middle-Eastern/Central Asian than anything else! ( Read the book ` Black Athena'!). A Nazi is a member of the NSDAP. Former Neo-Nazi Ingo Hasselbach stated in his book (Fuehrer-ex)that many of Germany's neo-Nazis found Southern Europeans in the scene to be stupid and laughable and that "only a Nordic could be a National Socialist" (in his words). The Nazis invaded Greece and killed many Greeks, How can they be Nazis? There is a big neo-Nazi scene in Russia and Hitler hated Russians, hethought they were racially inferior. He turned that nation into a human incinerator! I could see `Japanese Neo-Nazis' more justafiable than them!! By the way, I do not think Pashtuns and Kalasha are Greek, They are descended from Aryans. Have any of you considered how many Greeks could have Northern Indian ancestry, considering much of that area was also a part of the Persian Empire and Persian troops from that region possibly invaded Greece?? P.S. Pashtuns are an Iranian not Indo-Aryan Ethnic group.
Your knowlege of history needs to be improved. Greece was never a part of the Persian Empire. The Persians invaded Greece, but the Greeks beat them in the battles of Themopylae and Salamina. I recommend you to visit either Greece or a psychologist. The Greeks are all White (except from the African and Asian immigrants who have come to Greece in the past few years). The book "Black Athena" is a pile of crap!!!! There are thousands of books that prove the ancient Greeks were Mediterannean Whites, just like the modern Greeks. Look at the ancient Greek statues, for Gods sake!!!!! Other books, by mostly German authors, say that the ancient Greeks were Nordics (see Nordic theory)!!! Again, the ancient Greeks were Mediterannean Whites, just like the modern Greeks. About the Greek neo-nazi movement, see Hrisi Avgi. Mitsos 11:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
About WWII, Greece was at war with Germany and Greece lost. During the Axis occupation of Greece during World War II, thousands of Greeks died because of starvation. This was due to: 1) The Germans took all the food from Greece in order to feed their own people, and 2) Because of the British trade embargo no food could come to Greece. The Greek neo-nazis embrace the ideology of National Socialism, not Hitler and the NSDAP in particular. They admire Hitler, because of what he has done for his people, not the Greeks. Mitsos 11:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I generally don't care about what you have said till now. I would like to see the references that the author should enter. Especially for the first paragraph about the Pelloponese. This is an encyclopaedia is not a blog, we don't write our opinions, we should support everything we write with published work.
agmpinia
23:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
"Russia may seem like an unlikely place for a flowering of Neo-Nazi movements due to the strong memories of the devastation that was wrought on the nation by the Nazi German invaders during World War II" do you think other countries like Belgium, Norway or UK (among others) were not devasted by german nazis in WWII? pff this phrase about russia doesn't make sense and should be removed. this whole article is a propaganda for nazi anyway with disgusting pictures of assholes proud to wear german uniforms, this is stupid. whatever. how can it be young communists and nazis supporters in 2006? too many people are stupid and don't learn, that's life. Shame On You 14:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Russia lost over 15 million civilians to the Nazis. A far greater number that any other country. 124.187.186.70 07:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Go read a text book or something.
-G
Something should be written about Sumka, the Iranian Neo-Nazi Party. The Idea of Iranian Neo-Nazis sounds laughable, but then so does the idea of Neo-Nazis in Italy, Greece and Russia. Is there an Indian Neo-Nazi party as well? They had contingients who fought in the SS and many could claim Aryan heritage. I wonder if they would be accepted by Neo-Nazis in the U.K.!!
I 've explained that Meditteraneans are White many times. I 'm not going to tell you the same things again. Mitsos 12:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The previous version of the Croatia section focussed on people and events from the World War Two era. That does not fit the definition of neo-Nazism. That version was also horribly formatted, with no separation into paragraphs. I replaced that substandard version with content taken directly from the article Neo-Nazism in Croatia. Twice those improvements have been reverted by an anonymous IP user, with the unfounded accusation of vandalism.
To the anonymous editor: please 1) do not revert productive edits 2) do not make false accusations and 3) sign up for a Wikipedia account so you can be held accountable for your edits and comments. If you have productive additions to that section (including much-needed references), please add them, but do not revert to a version that doesn't discuss the correct topic. Spylab 15:51, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I incorporated some content from the old version into the new version, so now there is absolutely no reason to revert to the old version, which focussed on World War Two people and events instead of neo-Nazism. Spylab 16:36, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Yet again the editor without an account reverted to an inferior version, even though I made an effort to comprimise by combining the two versions. Yet again the editor made a false accusation of vandalism. that editor has also brokent the Wikipedia:Three-revert rule rule by making the exact same revert three times within a 24 hour period. The editor has also incorrectly claimed that the content about WWII people is about the topic of Neo-Nazism. However, wikipedia defines neo-Nazism as "the ideology of post-World War II political movements seeking to revive Nazism or a racist form of fascism." The information that I deleted doesn't seem to meet that criteria. Spylab 16:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
people who suppor the popular view that people were gassed love to put these photos like the one on the main page of this article. the bodies are emaciated. they probably died of typhus not from poisoned gas. this photo probably needs to be removed. Keltik31 21:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Pleae seek constructive discussion on Croatia, or I will seek to have the page protected against further edits until collaborative discussion takes place.-- Cberlet 04:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
This edit war is annoying. Learn some manners. I am seeking page protection. Grow up.-- Cberlet 02:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
OK. This page is now protected. Look, folks, this is a complicated issue, and even though I have extensively studied the fascist period of Croatia, I have no idea how to find an NPOV text. But the folks who have engaged in the edit war do have this expertise, what they lack is a collaborative, constructive attitude. So get over it. Find a compromise. I'll do what I can do help, but is really up to us as a collective editing community. That is the wonderous aspect of Wikipedia.-- Cberlet 03:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem on this and other pages related to neonazism in several European countries, is that in several countries, the fascist and Nazi collaborationist forces later became recast as heroic anti-communists, and their historic fascism, Nazi collaborationism, and anti-semitic actions were sanitized as part of Cold War propoganda. In some cases, these same people did lead movements against communist totalitarianism, yet this should not obscure their other ideas and actions. In Croatia, as in several other countries, the neonazi movements often are tied to earlier interwar and WWII Nazi collaborationist forces, and thus it is not possible to exclude a discussion of this historic set of relationships. However, this discussion should not dominate the section on the particular country. Also, the issue of murderous rampages against Jews and Serbs in the WWII period might need to be raised as part of a discussion of current (and changing) Croatian government attitudes toward specific current fascist political movements, especially if they link themselves back to the interwar/WWII Ustasha.-- Cberlet 17:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's start over. Note the text at the top of the entry that the page is protected "until disputes have been resolved." If both of you (in your own way) refuse to engage in collabortive editing of text here on the discussion page, then the solution is not to keep the page locked, but to seek to have both of you banned from editing this article for some appropriate period of time. Please start placing text here on the discussion page and discussing how it should be edited. Thanks.-- Cberlet 15:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Please keep in mind that this article is supposed to be about neo-Nazism (emphasis on neo), and that there is a full article on neo-Nazism in Croatia, which discusses all aspects of the topic in more detail, including the movement's origins in World War Two Nazism. Spylab 16:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
So, Spylab, is there a compromise version that you can craft?-- Cberlet 03:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Alleanza Nazionale classified as a neo-nazi organization? Are we kidding? Please remove it. 82.58.169.151 08:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see some proof that the person on that picture is actually a "militant Neo-Nazi in Germany". What tells us that he really is a) militant, b) a Neo-Nazi and c) in Germany? As long as there is no proof for that, I suggest a new title for the image: "Armed person in front of a swastika flag."-- 62.214.246.78 23:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, I uploaded this image. It is my friend. It was taken at our stash spot in Frankonia. It was taken with my canon powershot A90. Dont know how it ended up on wikipedia but it just became to my attention. Thank you! (I can send you anotehr picture of him if you dont believe me!) Usurpsynapse 12:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I've attached to this section the totallydisputed tag due to a few issues
Also, mentioning Srebrenica atrocities has nothing to do with neo-Nazism in Serbia nor Srebrenica is in Serbia. Mentioning Serbian ultranationalist Seselj here is quite clearly out of context.
My proposal is to delete this section or write the text truly particular to the neo-Nazism in Serbia.
Wiki article on National_Power_Union identifies it as " far-right nationalist political party". That in my opinion corresponds well with what can be read in their program (in Latvian). [Neo]-nazi (as in national-socialist)? I don't believe so. Could someone quote a reliable source in support of their inclusion here? -- Doc15071969 23:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
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Please, remove phrase neo-Chetniks in Serbia from Analogous European movements since there is no single reference branding neo-Chetniks in Serbia as an European movement analogous to nazism 178.223.95.72 ( talk) 19:33, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
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Please, remove phrase neo-Chetniks in Serbia from Analogous European movements since there is no single reference branding neo-Chetniks in Serbia as an European movement analogous to nazism. My request is quite clear - no references supporting the claim. Response to Beyond My Ken: The article is about neo-nazism, not about chetniks, not about fascism. 178.223.95.72 ( talk) 06:30, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
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Beyond My Ken, you may wish to read WP:OVERCITE. In regards to your comment here, "PLEASE STOP REMOVING VALID SOURCE CITATIONS FROM THE ARTICLE. AN/I IS THE NEXT STOP", I can only point out that removing "valid source citations" is entirely appropriate when the citations are being added for no good reason. Shouting at me in capitals does not make your point any more valid. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 04:27, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
That you and I are in an editing dispute here, and that in the middle of it you go to an article you've never edited before right after I edit it, that's prima facie evidence of Wikihounding. I ask you here and now to stop: stop removing valid citations I add to this article, and stop shadowing me. I will not be intimidated by your actions, and I will take you to AN/I if you don't stop.This is my last communication with you on this subject. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 04:49, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Hounding on Wikipedia (or "wikihounding") is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Hounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia.
FreeKnowledgeCreator, you objected to a word being included in the article on the grounds it was uncited. Beyond My Ken added a cite. You are now removing that cite because of "citation overkill". Have I got this right? -- NeilN talk to me 08:24, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
and then go on to comment in the edit summary of a null editrm 'and implement' as uncited (emphasis added) [28]
It is you and you alone who insisted that "and implement" be cited, then you turn around remove one of the citatons I added, and now you say "The problem with it was never primarily that it was uncited. ... Furthermore... the claim that neo-Nazis want to "implement" their ideology is not a "contentious and/or exceptional claim". It is a totally unremarkable claim...", but it was you and you alone who turned into into a "contentious claim" by disputing it. You're being intellectually dishonest, playing both sides of the street. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 22:06, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Beyond My Ken, as already noted, the material you restored is uncited. It thus violates WP:VERIFY. There is no source that supports "and implement". Why would you restore uncited material? [29]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
On 24 March, User:LightandDark2000 added the words "and implement" to the sentence, so that it readNeo-Nazism consists of post-World War II militant social or political movements seeking to revive the ideology of Nazism.
The purpose of this RfC is to determine whether "and implement" – or other equivalent or near-equivalent phrases, such as "and establish" or "and put into effect" – should be kept in the opening sentence, or if it should be reverted to the original version. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 01:42, 4 April 2018 (UTC)Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II militant social or political movements seeking to revive and implement the ideology of Nazism.
This
edit request to
Neo-Nazism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change: "In the German Democratic Republic a former member of SA, Wilhelm Adam, founded the National Democratic Party of Germany." to "In the German Democratic Republic a former member of the SA, Wilhelm Adam, founded the National Democratic Party of Germany." because the former sentence is grammatically incorrect (see /info/en/?search=Sturmabteilung, https://www.britannica.com/topic/SA-Nazi-organization). Thank you. FilmTheory ( talk) 04:28, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
I've deleted improper content of the Serbia section added by someone. The added content is about alleged neo-fascism in Serbia. We have two different Wikipedia articles: Neo-nazism and Neo-fascism and there is no need for arbitrarily mixing their contents on the basis of some "closely-related" or "relevant" opinion-- Богаљ Рајовић ( talk) 10:22, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the description "homosexual". It's a atraight-forward description of a person's sexual orientation. "Gay" is fine as well, except (1) it's more informal than "homosexual", and we are an encyclopedia, and (2) It's somewhat ambiguous, as in many contexts it refers to homosexual men, as in the expression "LGBTQ" is which "L" stands for "Lesbian" (i.e. female homosexuals), and "G" stands for "Gay" (i.e. male homosexual}. Certainly there's nothing wrong with a homosexual woman referring to herself as a "gay woman", but the ambiguity of the word is still a fact, meaning that the unambiguous terms is the better choice. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 00:51, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Personally, I made the change because "anti-gay" seems like the more common and natural expression, whereas "anti-homosexual" sounds stilted. This is supported by Google search, with over 12 million results for "anti-gay" and only 286,000 for "anti-homosexual" (almost two orders of magnitude). "Anti-lesbian" hasn't caught on either, and "anti-gay" is frequently used for homophobia in general. Furthermore, the skinheads are opposed to gay men, but it's not clear that they're opposed to lesbians, or how virulently so. The reasons stated by FKC also make a case for a change. But mostly I am puzzled why the choice between two semantically equivalent words has been allowed to blow up into an extensive discussion, when there are more important issues with this article. Catrìona ( talk) 05:44, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
I believe that the lead requires additional material as noted. It needs to note that neo-Nazism is on the far-right of the political spectrum, something it currently does not note explicitly. It needs to note of neo-Nazis that "They are chronologically separated from the original Nazism of the German Nazi Party". It needs to note explicitly that neo-Nazis are opposed to democracy and to provide added context to explain the history of neo-Nazism. The lead needs to note which particular version of racism it is that neo-Nazis believe in, in particular that they are biological racists and believe that the Nordic race is inherently superior. The lead needs to explain clearly what anti-semitism and Holocaust denial are, it needs to note that neo-Nazis are interested in conspiracy theories, and it needs to note that escaped Nazis, such as some of those who escaped to Latin America, helped influence neo-Nazism. It needs to note the involvement of neo-Nazis in electoral politics, and their involvement with the skinhead movement. I suggest that some of the text visible in this version of the lead should be restored to help explain all these matters. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 05:42, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
Beyond My Ken, I do not think that this edit, which changed "seeking to revive the ideology of Nazism" to "seeking to revive and implement the ideology of Nazism" is reasonable. I think that it is unnecessary, bad writing, and confused. A reader of normal intelligence can be expected to understand that if someone thinks an ideology should be revived, then they also think that the ideology should be acted upon. Actually reviving an ideology by definition means taking action based on that ideology. The editor who added "and implement" perhaps assumed that reviving an ideology does not necessarily involve acting upon it. The assumption is incorrect; reviving an ideology by definition involves acting upon it. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 02:25, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I understand the nuance in adding implement, but the source used for this sentence (almost exactly, at the beginning of #Definition) does not include another word, only revive. If we're to argue that the source's use of only that word is not sufficient, where does the body support the inclusion of a more specific word/phrase to convey "and act upon" or similar? Another source attached to the sentence uses the word propagate ("the attempt to propagate"), which is slightly different from revive—perhaps to spread or increase vs. to renew, respectively—but doesn't really change the sentence's overall meaning. I think meanings of revive fit the sentence, e.g. "to restore to consciousness or life" or "to restore from a depressed, inactive, or unused state : bring back" ( M-W). It would make more sense to keep the lead sentence as concise as possible to give the reader the picture and prevent them from becoming discouraged, and then splitting the sources at the beginning of #Definition into separate sentences to describe the ways, in their subtle forms, that Neo-Nazism is being revived, propagated, completed/realized/implemented, etc. Whether or not "put into action" is implied when an ideology is "revived", I'd be interested in seeing a source that has a short definition of the term and uses something to mean "put into action". Rhinopias ( talk) 06:13, 29 March 2018 (UTC) |
The lead fail to "stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." WP:LEAD There is a lot that has no mention, especially about the history and the contemporary issues. Rupert Loup ( talk) 23:06, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this section should be included in the article because I think that it was added to imply Neo-Nazism in regards to the Constitutional Court's practice prior to my explanation on why the Court actually annulled those amendments (which is merely due to procedural breaches and not because the Court was against their content as implied before; And by the way, that verdict is significant for the whole Croatian legal system because the Court set out its position on what the organic law is, thus defining it, because it wasn't defined by the Constitution). What's your opinion? United Union ( talk) 18:37, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
"In 2003, a group of 56 Croatian MP's voted in favor of amendments to the Croatian penal code which contained provisions prohibiting the public display of Nazi symbols, the propagation of Nazi ideology, historical revisionism and holocaust denial. Later that year, Constitutional Court of Croatia annulled the amendments since they were not enacted based on the constitutionally prescribed procedure requiring the majority of 76 out of 151 MP's. The Court didn't question the amendments' content but merely legislative procedure true which they were enacted since the Court is authorized only for that. Nevertheless, an amendment was added in 2006 by which any type of hate crime based on factors such as race, color, gender, sexual orientation, religion or national origin was explicitly prohibited."
The article includes a "criticism" section mentioning some comments two people made about Neo-Nazism. I am sure that section was well-intentioned, however, in my view, it does not serve a legitimate encyclopedic purpose and should be removed. There are many things wrong with it. The fundamental problem is that it is not appropriate to include "criticism" of an extreme political ideology that obviously has no mainstream acceptability or credibility, as though that ideology were something that needed to be debunked or discredited by Wikipedia. Mentioning "criticism" of Neo-Nazism implies that the ideology might be considered credible in the absence of criticism of it, and that is not something Wikipedia should be doing. In the absence of anything whatever that might suggest that Neo-Nazism is an acceptable mainstream view, it is counter-productive to Wikipedia's credibility to include a section arguing against it. Instead of including "criticism" of Neo-Nazism, as though it were an arguable view that required some counter-argument to disprove it, the article should simply note that it is not a mainstream position, that it is illegal in some countries, and so on. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 04:45, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
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I think we need to be very careful in the Ukraine section to avoid falling into Russian state propaganda. There is no doubt that Svoboda, Right Sector and the Azov Battalion are very much on the far-right of politics, however, categorising these groups unambiguously as neo-Nazi is highly questionable. These groups look back to Stepan Bandera and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army as their inspiration, who was at times pro-Axis and at times anti-Axis. This isn't like the Golden Dawn scenario where the leaders have all been photographed in Nazi uniforms, promoting Hitler in their literature or have Nazi tattoos. In the conflict between Russia and the Ukraine in general (including Banderaites), the former are very cleverly, in a slight-of-hand Byzantine way, trying to portray the Euromaidan/Ukrainian position as "Nazism" in general as a justification for invading territories. The reality is far more nuanced than that. Especially since the Russian side in Donetsk, etc, are backed up by Duginites, Russian National Unity elements, who have a far better claim to the title neo-Nazi. IMO we should neither be pushing Russian or NATO propaganda but remain objective. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 13:26, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
There have been some improvements, but still a lot of problematic interpretations in this section, which gives it a bit of a Greater Russian patriot stench and it needs to include mention of pro-Russian neo-Nazis in the Donbass and rest of the East on the other side. A lot of this is very tendentious and strays into taking sides on the Russia-Ukraine conflict. I'll just give two examples for now;
Our article claims: "The Svoboda party mayor in Konotop reportedly has the number "14/88" displayed"
The Jerusalem Post article we cite says, "According to reports, Semenikhin drives around in a car bearing the number 14/88."
What reports these are the Jerusalem Post does not say, making this complete hearsay and since we are using this as supposed evidence to portray the Ukrainians as Hitler-loving neo-Nazis, we would need some better evidence for this claim than mere anonymous rumor.
Our article claims: "has implied that Jews were responsible for the Holodomor."
JP reference says:
"However, while the mayor attempts to make sure his statements never cross over into outright anti-Semitism, many things he says can be interpreted in such a way, he continued. As an example, he referred to a recent statement by Semenikhin in which the mayor refused to apologize for anti-Jewish actions taken by far-right nationalists in World War II, intimating that it was because those responsible for the Holodomor famine of the 1930s were largely Jewish."
So, the Jerusalem Post actually claims that Semnikhin does not make anti-semitic statements, but has stated the people involved in the "Holomodor" were largely Jewish, not that "the Jews were responsible". We would need to see a direct quote as evidence for this, since in common practice, Jews come in third in the traditional Banderite list of hostilities, behind Russians and Poles. The usual Banderite line on "the Holomodor" is that it was a Muscovite-Russian imperialist attempt to wipe out Ukrainian culture and nationalism. The anti-Jewish angle is secondary. Anti-semitic aspersions isn't necessarily evidence that they are neo-Nazis, the Poles and others in the region aren't particularly friendly with Jews either, yet that doesn't mean they want to revive Hitlerism. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 21:41, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
— The head of the Israel-Ukraine inter-parliamentary association, Israel is Our Home Party MP Alex Miller, has said he does not understand why the Ukrainian opposition signed a coalition agreement with an "anti-Semitic" party - the Svoboda All-Ukrainian Union… According to the Ukrainian Jewish Committee, Svoboda is a fascist party, and its full name - the Social-National Party of Ukraine - was chosen in association with the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP).
— The Wiesenthal Center also cited Oleh Tyahnybok (No. 5) from the fascist Ukrainian Svoboda party. He urged purges of the approximately 400,000 Jews and other minorities living in the Ukraine and has demanded that the country be liberated from the "Muscovite Jewish Mafia." Ukrainian MP Igor Miroshnichenko was cited for anti-Jewish remarks as well: He called Ukrainian-born American actress Mila Kunis a "zhydovka" (dirty Jewess).
— In their propaganda, SNPU ideologues were more open, describing the confrontation with "Muscovite influence" as racial. SNPU publications proudly called the Ukrainian nation the "root of the white race." Ukraine was viewed as an "outpost of European civilization" and Russia as an "Asiatic horde." Ukraine—according to Andriy Parubiy, one of the SNPU leaders (who later joined Our Ukraine)—must "confront the aggressiveness of the pernicious ideas of the Asiatic world, today embodied in Russia.
— The Ukrainian National Assembly (UNA), KUN and Svoboda are also Russophobic and anti-semitic. Moreover, 'white racism' is overtly or covertly inherent in the doctrines of the UNA, Svoboda and All-Ukrainian Party'New Force' (Nova Syla), and most evidently manifests itself through the parties' anti-immigrant positions.!
— But Svoboda's positions are somewhat at odds with the EU's ideals of tolerance and multiculturalism, to put it mildly: It is a driving force behind Ukraine's anti-gay rights movement; the party's platform supports distributing government positions to various ethnicities according to their percentage makeup of the population; and, despite recent claims to the contrary, it remains, at least among its leadership, a deeply anti-Semitic organization (one deputy in parliament has described the Holocaust as a "bright period" for Europe.)-- Tobby72 ( talk) 07:22, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Their supporters are frequently low-income young men who blame their or their society's problems on immigrants and a presumed Jewish conspiracy.
I have a small quibble with this. Their members are generally as described, but their supporters, both ideological and financial, are often quite wealthy and/or politically involved. -- April
I've cut : "However, more mainstreeam organisations such as the FN and Vlaams Blok strong refute this description." It was writen in the previous para. : "no political party of significant importance will describe itself as neo-nazi." I think this is somewhat redundant. Ericd 15:41, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I've always thought that describing the Front National as neo-nazi misses the point and banalizes "nazism" up to the point where it's meaningless. Still, some people argue that they are neo-nazis, so we should mention that. David.Monniaux 15:49, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Should mention important role of neo-Nazi &c. music. -- Daniel C. Boyer 15:36, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I think the article should mention whether the party is openly neo-Nazi or whether its a label applied to them by their apponents. Those of you who know more about the subject please say whether the party is openly Nazi or not.
Italy
USA
UK
Other countries
Saul Taylor 07:26, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
--*note: Very few groups, even amongst those listed, would publicly describe themselves as being neo-Nazi. Firstly and foremostly, these groups aren't stupid and they know the idea of a Nazi makes people nervous. So few, in fact, label themselves that way, that the term is almost entirely within the domain of a slur used by opponents. Furthermore, if we are to definitely describe any of the linked organizations as 'neo-Nazi', it would be pertitent to mention WHY. Many groups appear Nazi simply because they share symbolism and ideas, and depending on how it is percieved, the term 'neo-Nazi' may or may not apply correctly.
I object against the inclusion of the link to the Jewwatch website. It's bad enough that these people peddle their views—linking to them just gives them wider exposure.
JFW |
T@lk
10:13, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Quote: "Jew Watch - This website criticizes modern 'Jewish/Zionist Supremacism'. It presents a neo-Nazi point of view." Point of view? Wouldn't "propaganda" be a better word?!-- Deadworm222 00:47, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
-- A personal objection, I find, is not a valid reason to restrict another person(s) access to vital information. By the same logic, any given person could disallow any number of other people access to Democratic Party literature because they deem it not a point of view, but propaganda. In fact, by that logic, anyone could deny anyone access to any information. We must be responsible with free media such as the internet, because, unlike controllable media which is subject to the law of the country it is based in (in this case, the First Amendment), free media relies on the self-restrain and maturity of those involved with the production thereof.
A question to the community. I have just added a long writeup about a part of the topic, the Russian neo-Nazis. I suspect that it should merit a separate page. So the question is, what exactly is our policy on splitting pages? If I put the long description into a separate article, what should I leave in this article? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Watcher 11:10, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
There is a lot of data to support adding the popular new age neofascist, David Icke to this page. I have a few paragraphs of information at this point, but I want to get some feedback on this idea if possible. If anyone would like to help, that would be great, too. -- Viriditas 01:37, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Where did the data on the Russian neo-nazis come from? It's quite striking information, but it also makes me suspicious somehow...some sources would be helpful. 137.22.1.33 11:26, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
-- I cannot provide, at the moment, any specific rock-solid references, but I know this section is largely correct. The reason it seems incredible is because in most of the West neo-Nazism is believed to be a fringe phenomenon, a bunch of cooks, if you will, and whether or not the 'common knowledge' of this matter is correct, it is a fact that in Russia neo-Nazism (at least, as defined by the article) is an extremely healthy, public movement. If one follows neo-Nazi discourse and literature, one finds that it is a very well acknowledged fact that Russia is a central piece on the neo-Nazi chess board, and an integral part of all plans for the future.
I disagree on LDPR. The party is nationalist ('patriotic') but has no affinity with nazis or Hitler figure. in fact, it is based solely of the charismatic figure of Zhirinovsky, who is more of a businessman of politics than a man of any particular principles. He is a orientologist by profession and the only coherent political idea he came up with was that Russia needs to establish closer ties with the Middle Eastern Arab states like Iran. He is clearly strongly anti-American and a male chauvinist, but in general he is just a skillful speaker who knows how to get the mob excited.
In general, Russian neo-nazis are RNE, NBP and multiple underground groups. As far as I know, both RNE and NBP are outlawed and marginalized. Also important to note that none of the neo-nazi parties have ever made it to the parliament. The communists is another case. Russian modern commnists have turned pure nationalists in early 1990s. The so-called 'red-brown plague' (as democrats would call them) or 'patriotic movement' (as they themselves would like to be called) is very peculiar case of the ideological marriage of nationalism and communism.
In the article: "claiming that the Holocaust slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews" Entire Europe had that many Jews. Is it posible that SOMEBODY survived. Have thay indeed killed everyone. 3 milions + 1 milion died from other reasons but between 1939-1945. (WWII). I hope you don't see as a Neo-Nazi... -- Milant 03:49, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Under the Neo-Nazi lists of political parties it has "One nation - Australia" with a link to information on the British One Nation party. Which is intended?
I'm resplitting the article, I posted warning that I was doing so before and there were no objections. Mel Etitis then reverted my changes and removed my reason why without discussing it. unsigned by user:Korhend
As I said before, the movements have moved away from each other largely, if not entirely. If you contact the American fascist movement, they will tell you just that. Most Neo-Fascist movements are avowedly anti-nazi, wanting to make such groups illegal. Even if the groups are similar, they are different enough to warrant a seperate article. Just as neo-militarists in Japan are considered a different group, the movements are largely seperate, and lack contact with one another. They should not be lumped together simply because they are both totalitarian right. Whatever similarities the regimes they are based off of had, the movements are unique and seperate enough that using them in the same article violates Non-Point of Veiw.- Korhend Apr 9
You would have to personally talk to them. However from the American Fascist parties website "We are not a neo-nazi party and we dont advocate racism or anti-semitism in any form. We are a Fascist Party and any American Citizen of whatever race, religion or creed can become members of our party. We dont say this to make good PR, this is a fact and we have many Hispanic members in our party." Though Nazis might be termed Neo-fascist if Naziism is included in the definition of Fascism, most describe themselves as Nazis and not fascists.-- Korhend
If I could secure a posted statement by Seth Tyrrsen on a site, would that qualify as sufficient?
Its not enough that the founder of the largest neo-fascist movement in america objects to it? Then who exactly is large enough if anyone. As for "saying anything" doesn't that apply to any one also? Are we to assume any politician is anti-semetic until proven otherwise? How exactly can one "Prove" that they are not anti-semitic?- Korhend
Can we establish the divide between neo-fascist and neo-nazi. A nazi and a fascist are not essentially the same thing. Its similiar to defining Stalinism as Communism. It is not accurate. A communist may or may not coinsider himself a Stalinist. Trotsky certainly wasn't! Likewise a fascist may or may not consider himself a Nazi.
I must apologize for the great delay for my reply, my computer wasn't working. General Francisco Franco's Falange Party was widely (and correctly) veiwed as Fascist. In america there is the American Christian Falangist party, which while racist is a pro-zionist nation. At the bottom of their page is a link to ARMDI. http://www.falangist.org/index.htm ARMDIs site describe it as "ARMDI, organized in 1940, is the exclusive fundraising organization in the United States for Magen David Adom (MDA), Israel’s equivalent to a Red Cross Society. ARMDI supports the MDA National Emergency Medical, Ambulance, Blood and Disaster Services which benefit Israel’s entire population." - Korhend
One Nation may be a pack of completely racist dickheads (and that would probably apply to the damn Queenslanders that vote for them too ;-P) but I don't think anyone seriously believes them to be neo-Nazis. Yes, they probably get called fascist Nazis by a lot of left wing voters in Australia, but that's more hyperbole than anything. Those lists need to be cleaned up.
How can Mussolini's movement be called neo-nazi, he was in power long before Hitler, or neo-fascist, as he invented fascism. A.K.A.47 21:48, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
A number of scholars of the "extreme right" in Europe make distinctions regarding the differences between neonazism, neofascism, and right-wing populism. Betz and Mudde for example. Buchanaatin in the U.S., for example, is called neofascist by some, but not neonazi. Front National in France is another example, as is de Benoist in France. I would like to attempt to put up a page Neofascism to accompnay the new page Neofascism and religion and detail the groups that might be considered neofascist, but are not accurately called neonazi. Also, note the spelling. It is gaining currency to distinguish the trends from original Fascism and Nazism.-- Cberlet 16:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
And the new page on Neo-Fascism is up as a stub.-- Cberlet 13:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And the new corporation of a littel 300 members ar colling them selves THE A.T.C- it means (Amsterdamse terror corps)Its a place in Holland and they are trying to become one of the bigggest gangs to become.
National Vanguard is now its own organization and separate from the National Alliance. -- Hremmnoth 29 June 2005 07:16 (UTC)
Now that George W. Bush has declared all liberals to be terrorist sympathizers is it time for us to declare him a neo-fascist?
June 23, 2005, marked a controversial statement from Karl Rove, when he said that "Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers." Conservatives, he said, "saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war."
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Neo-Fascism&redirect=no
The article says:
Is this just speculation, or is there evidence of this? The article only goes on to give a "good, though fictional, example". — Matt Crypto 11:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
This merge was proposed by User:Humus_sapiens. I'm disappointed to find he has offered no rationale here, since I was hoping to rebut it.
I don't see this as a good merge because Nazi skinheads have not only a neo-fascist aspect, but a skinhead one, and the two aspects are intertwined in their identity. Although they partly share origins and early history with both skinheads and neo-fascists, they have evolved separately from either group and have developed their own distinct cultural characteristics--although the current article merely hints at this fact. As a separate article, we can hope for more detail to reveal this at some time. On the other hand, if this article were merged into either Neo-Nazism or Skinhead, exploration of the Nazi skinhead subculture would seem out of place or out of balance with the article as a whole. The merge would effectively discourage potential editors from providing in-depth coverage of unique Nazi skinhead history and culture. I would rather wait a while, allowing time for the Nazi-Skinheads article to mature. -- Unconventional 08:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
In one sense this is a trivial point, but the article is all over the place in how it spells the phenomenon it talks about. I noticed all of these variants: "neo-nazi", "Neo-Nazi", "neo-Nazi", and "Neo Nazi". Can someone authoritative rule on which it should be so it can be cleaned up? Metamagician3000 00:19, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Discussions of the relationship between Fascism and socialism and Nazism and socialism keep appearing on multiple pages. On what page does the section on Nazism and socialism belong?
Fascism and ideology--- Nazism in relation to other concepts--- Fascism and socialism--- Nazism and socialism
Please discuss and vote on this dispute at this talk page]. Thanks. -- Cberlet 15:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
The Austrian section seems to be based largely on
Stiftung Dokumentationsarchiv des österreichischen Widerstandes / Anti-Defamation League (ed.): Brigitte Bailer-Galanda / Wolfgang Neugebauer, Incorrigibly Right. Right-Wing Extremists, "Revisionists" and Anti-Semites in Austrian Politics Today, Vienna-New York 1996, p. 5-21)
found online here.
Is there a copyright, or at least acknoledgement issue?
For example
Wikipedia
"The Austrian public saw itself confronted with the organized Right for the first time in 1959, on the occasion of the "Schiller Celebrations", when "national" (Pan-German) youth, sport and cultural organizations took to the streets. Within student and university bodies the so-called Burschenschaften and schlagende Verbindungen (fraternities of male uniformed students), the FPÖ's students' organization RFS and its graduate equivalent FAV (Freiheitliche Akademikerverbände) attained considerable influence.
In 1960, during the so-called "South Tyrol Crisis", such right-wing extremists, along with German Kameraden, gained widespread notoriety by involvement in terrorist acts ("freedom struggle") in Italy. Prominent among these was Norbert Burger, the ex-RFS leader and subsequent chairman of the Neo-Nazi NDP (Nationaldemokratische Partei). The influence which the extreme Right had gained in the universities became dramatically apparent five years later, during the so-called "Borodajkewycz Affair". Hundreds of students demonstrated in favour of the antisemitic university professor Borodajkewycz and were involved in street battles, in the course of which Ernst Kirchweger, a former concentration camp inmate, was beaten to death."
ADL
"The Austrian public saw itself confronted with the organized Right for the first time in 1959, on the occasion of the "Schiller Celebrations", when "national" (Pan-German) youth, sport and cultural organizations took to the streets. Within student and university bodies the so-called Burschenschaften and schlagende Verbindungen (fraternities of male uniformed students), the FPÖ's students' organization RFS and its graduate equivalent FAV (Freiheitliche Akademikerverbände) attained considerable influence. In 1960, during the so-called "South Tyrol Crisis", such right-wing extremists, along with German Kameraden, gained widespread notoriety by involvement in terrorist acts ("freedom struggle") in Italy. Prominent among these was Norbert Burger, the ex-RFS leader and subsequent chairman of the neo-Nazi NDP (Nationaldemokratische Partei). The influence which the extreme Right had gained in the universities became dramatically apparent five years later, during the so-called "Borodajkewycz Affair". Hundreds of students demonstrated in favour of the antisemitic university professor Borodajkewycz and were involved in street battles, in the course of which Ernst Kirchweger, a former concentration camp inmate, was beaten to death."
I think neo-nazism is disraceful and should be outlawed from the world
Excluded Pro Patria Union (Estonia) from the Neo-Nazism In Other Countries section. (I suppose random parties get often inserted in this list by people who just don't like them and think it would be a smart place to show their disapprovement.)-- Oop 21:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
There is just one thing I cannot understand. Why do American kids think they are right for Nazism when 99% of the times they do not fit the racial standards?
Nazism may be OK for us Europeans, but I hate how it is spreading faster than communism!
I'd also like to add that riots caused by American "nazis" are plain stupid from a European's point of view, they don't lead anywhere. I've seen that in over a million years of history of my continent.—Preceding unsigned comment added by SS-Handzar ( talk • contribs)
In the links listed as other neo nazis, the MNR is listed as NEO NAZI. France Fascism seem distinct from the ideology of Nazism despite some commonality of fact. I would classify MNR or FN as Fascist not neo nozi because their ideology is not really in the belief of Race superiority, but rather in the affirmance of France as a Nation and its priority.
Holocaust denial though is a common trend in Nationalist speech.
What a beautiful family. Good thing to see nationalist influences rising in Europe.
___________________________________
Well, I come from Croatia and I am surely not a Nazi or anything like that. I am shocked by the picture of a Croatian family (3 children, mother and father) in ustasha uniforms.
However, I must say I have never seen something like that in Croatia and in the Croatian newspapers or magazines neither. People who found this photo have done a very hard research. I am convinced, nevertheless, that such a photo could be found perheps in any European country. It may be also a simple "mise en scene" commissioned by somebody.
In the third place, I would like to stress that this photo promotes intolerance and hatred against Croatian people. It is not true that "many children are raised in ustasha tradition". Maybe those who wrote the article should be questioned about their own racism.
Nikola, physician, Split, Croatia
There is overreferencing in the section Neo-Nazism in Croatia, the reference [6] has no substance next to the text in the article: the article in Croatian talks about the graffiti of the Ustasha hailing "Za dom spremni", chetnick grafiti 4 c's around the cross as well as graffiti "Oslobodite Norca hrvatskog borca - komunjare - Gotovina - EU 1:0", te "Niste vi oslobađali Hrvatsku, pa nećete ni vladati - bando crvena" which relate to the Croatian generals Norac and Gotovina. This graffiti was found the main council building in Mursko Središće, so no Orthodox church was graffitied in this reference as well as the following: [7]. The other references do support the sentence and they are OK for referencing the point. [ FrontLine 22:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The article had the following, which was deleted and pasted here:
Proving the existence of a ready audience for fascist thought in Croatia, Mein Kampf was published and sold in the year of 1999 - in the number more than 600 copies in hardback within days at the remarkable price of 500 kuna (75 dollars each) - roughly equivalent to a week's average salary here. That time German foreign minister Joschka Fischer was prompted to press his Croatian opposite number Mate Granic to have Hitler's book banned in Croatia. [8].
You do not have to be a Muslim to own or read the Kuran, or a Cristian to own or read the Bible the problem was that the Mein Kampf was banned literature during the Yugoslav era. So does it make you a fascist to read or own a copy of Mein Kampf ?? Don't think so. The book Mein Kampf is available in many bookstores freely over the couter in: US, Canada, Australia as well as on Amazon.com, and other countries except Germany see: [9] , so many versions for the "ready audience for fascist" for anyone who can read English ??? Don't think so. FrontLine 03:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The previous sentence order was a bit of a mumbo-jumbo job, this no a bit better FrontLine 13:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding 2 links from http://index.hr that Purger, they prove just opposite from what Purger would like to prove. one of them is about a 14 year old kid being interogated from police for Ustasa graffiti, so this proves that there is zero-tolerance for Ustasa grafiti in Croatia. Thanks, Purger, nice work :))).
The litigation section in the article about Neo-Nazism in Croatia was almost a pure copy paste and it has no place there:
In 1999 a suit was filed at a court in San Franciso against the Vatican Bank (Institute for Religious Works) and against the Franciscan order, the Croatian Liberation Movement (the Ustashe), the National Bank of Switzerland and others. The suit was filed by Jewish, Ukrainian, Serb and Roma survivors, as well as relatives of victims and various organizations that together represent 300,000 World War II victims. The plaintiffs demanded accounting and restitution. One of the lawyers representing the plaintiffs is Jonathan Levy. "Many of the plaintiffs have been reluctant to be pictured, after all these years," says Levy. "Many are still terrified of the Ustashe, the Serbs particularly. Unlike the Nazi Party, the Ustashe still exist and have a party headquarters in Zagreb." [10]
FrontLine 15:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The litigation part was removed, as the reference to neo-nazism in Croatia was weak Vodomar 18:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The section:
In the late 1990's, an attempt was made to bring to the justice Nada Sakic who was a guardian at the Stara Gradiska concentration camp. Nada Sakic according to her accusers was known for her cruelty towards the prisoners and is reflected in diverse testimonies that were the basis for her extradition in in November 1998 to Croatia - where she was held until her release. Croatian government granted her Croatian citizenship. Mrs. Sakic, then 72, was never even indicted by the Croatian authorities. The Croatian government falsely claimed that no evidence or witnesses exist to indict Mrs. Sakic. However, the New York based Jasenovac Research Institute was in contact with Survivors living in Yugoslavia who had given eyewitness testimony to Mrs. Sakic's crimes at Stara Gradishka (part of the Jasenovac camps). At the First International Conference on Jasenovac in New York City in 1997 one of these Survivors, Mara Vejnovic, gave an eyewitness account of Nada Sakic's activities as a death camp commander. [11]
is a reflection of some failure of the Croatian judicial system, the trial od Dinko Šakić shows one end of the specturm and the Nada Šakić does not show Neo-Nazism.
FrontLine 15:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The Nada Šakić trial is no proof of neo-nazism in Croatia, it might be a poorly managed case by the Croatian judiciary. Vodomar 18:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Purger, I removed that enormous list of links you placed in the article. Some of them perhaps can go down at the bottom of the page in a references section, but the article doesn't really need such an enormous laundry list like that, especially when some looked like blogs. · Ka t efan0 (scribble) 19:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Laundry list of links - all the links listed below appear in the Article
Neo-nazism in Croatia and placing it in the main article makes it longer then necessary
Vodomar 22:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The above set of links are mostly connections to artiles in croatian newspapers and they are found in the main article Neo-Nazism in Croatia, this is unnecessary in he main article about Neo-Nazism. There is no value in that being in at the end of the article, as the section about Neo-Nazism in Croatia covers the ground and there is a specific article about Neo-Nazism in Croatia which has this link Vodomar 21:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
There are several problems with sources in "Neo-Nazism in Croatia" section.
1. These two links [12], [13]are given as a source for following statement: "Public appearance of the Ustashe veterans seen in Zadar and Slunj are tepidly condemned by some newspapers." However, these newspaper articles (from the same newspaper) are not talking about condemnation of "public appearance of the Ustashe veterans". They are "tepidly" condemning "public appearance…". So claim given in the article is original research.
2. For claim that: "Singing infamous Jasenovac i Gradiska Stara song which glorifies Ustashe and their genocide over Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies is sometimes heard even among schoolchildren, and treated by public with silence, sometimes affirmatively, of if unfavorable - more like as yelling or screaming in public." given source is a Usnet post [14]. However, Usenet posts are not acceptable as sources. [15]
3. For claim that: "In 2005 a number of Orthodox churches were sprayed with Serb hate graffiti" none of the following links [16], [17], [18] can verify it. -- Vision Thing -- 12:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
1. Read the
definition of original research:
"Original research is a term used on Wikipedia to refer to material added to articles by Wikipedia editors that has not been published already by a reputable source."
Claim that "public appearances of Ustatshe veterans… are tepidly condemned" is original research because it hasn't been published in any reputable source (AFAIK). -- Vision Thing -- 16:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
2. No, they can't. " Posts to bulletin boards and Usenet, wikis or messages left on blogs, are never acceptable as primary or secondary sources. Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Bulletin_boards.2C_wikis_and_posts_to_Usenet -- Vision Thing -- 16:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
3. Link to HRW report [19] you added doesn't mention any of claims listed above nor it connects persecution of Serbian minority with Neo-Nazis/Ustase. -- Vision Thing -- 16:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
4. This link [20] talks about Ustashe graffiti sprayed on Ortodox church, but it was one incident in 2004, not a number of incidents in 2005. -- Vision Thing -- 16:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Why reverting edits all the time without ever getting into a discussion about it ? Why have a long winded version, when a short version is sufficents in the article about Neo-Nazism, and you can let loose on the specific Neo-Nazism for a specific country, which is more appropriate. Vodomar 22:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Changed the following:
The paragraph on litigation:
In November 1999 a lawsuit was filled in Federal Court, San Francisco, CA where the plaintifs are of Serb, Jevish and Ukrainian background who survived the WWII concentation camps. The defendants are the Vatican Bank, Franciscan Order and the Croatian Liberation Movements who concealed assets looted by the Croatian Nazis from the concentration camps victims (Serbs, Jews, Ukrainians) between 1941-1945. As per Jonathan Levy, one of the plaintifs' lawyers, many of the plaintiffs have been reluctant to be pictured, and are still terrified of the Ustashe. The Serbs particularly, for unlike the Nazi Party, the Ustashe still exist and have a party headquarters in Zagreb. [22]
What is the point of having this, as the main point of this paragraph is: "many of the plaintiffs have been reluctant to be pictured, and are still terrified of the Ustashe. The Serbs particularly, for unlike the Nazi Party, the Ustashe still exist and have a party headquarters in Zagreb", so to take the fluff out it is best that this is rewritten as:
Many of Croatia's critics also claim that the country is favorable towards it's Nazi past, as there are organistions like Croatian Liberation Movements (Croatian Hrvatski oslobodilački pokret or HOP), which bears the same name as the organisation that was formed after the WWII by Ante Pavelić, and are registered and headquartered organisations in Croatia. Such presence according to Jonathan Levy still terrifies Serbs, who are many times reluctant to have their pictured or seen in court in fear of reprisals and intimidation, like in the recent joint case of WWII concentation camp survivors that was lodged with the US Federal Court case in San Francisco in 1999. [23] Vodomar 23:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, the section on Croatia is obviously full of emotional and political hot buttons. Let's edit one paragraph at a time for a short period of time. Also, it may be prudent to ask that this page be protected from anonymous URL edits. Anonymous editors can remain anonymous as to their "real" identity while registering here at Wiki so that they have some accountability. The last edit by Vision Thing was simply not vandalism.-- Cberlet 19:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Cberlet and have two things to add. Firstly, I advise the anonymous user not to make unwarranted accusations of vandalism. Wikipedia:Vandalism, which is official policy, says: While having large chunks of text you've written deleted, moved to the talk page, or substantially rewritten can sometimes feel like vandalism, it should not be confused with vandalism. Secondly, I advise him not to confuse any attack against Serbs in Croatia with Neo-Nazism. This applies to his first source above, which is exclusively about ethnic hatred, not Neo-Nazism. -- Zmaj 14:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed some references that are only about ethnic hatred and not about Neo-Nazism. -- Zmaj 14:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
NOTICE: 64.18.16.251 and a number of other users have been identified as sock puppets of Purger, see here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Purger. -- Zmaj 09:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Since the main problem here is not the accuracy of some parts of the text, but their relation to the subject, I propose opening a new page Anti-serbian sentiment in Croatia. Then, everything related to ethnic hatred, but unrelated to neo-Nazism (attacks on people from Serbia unrelated to neo-Ustasa etc.) could be moved there. We could also put links to this new page from Neo-Nazism in Croatia and from this page. What do you think?
One of the pictures has the caption:
What does multiracist mean? I think perhaps the caption should read "dystopian multiracial regime". Funkyj 18:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The paragraphs:
In 1998-9, an attempt was made to bring to justice Nada Sakic - who was a guard at the Stara Gradiska concentration camp. Nada Sakic, according to her accusers, was known for her cruelty towards the prisoners which is reflected in diverse testimonies that were the basis for her extradition in November 1998 to Croatia - where she was held until her release . The Croatian government granted her Croatian citizenship. Mrs. Sakic, then 72, was never even indicted by the Croatian authorities. The Croatian government falsely claimed that no evidence or witnesses exist to indict Mrs. Sakic. However, the New York based Jasenovac Research Institute was in contact with Survivors living in Yugoslavia who had given eyewitness testimony to Mrs. Sakic's crimes at Stara Gradishka (part of the Jasenovac camps). At the First International Conference on Jasenovac in New York City in 1997 one of these Survivors, Mara Vejnovic, gave an eyewitness account of Nada Sakic's activities as a death camp commander. [25]
In November 1999 a lawsuit was filed in Federal Court, San Francisco, CA where the plaintiffs are of Serb, Jewish and Ukrainian background. The plaintiffs are also survivors of the WWII Ustase concentration camps. The defendants are the Vatican Bank, the Franciscan Order and the Croatian Liberation Movements who concealed assets looted by the Croatian Nazis from their concentration camp victims (Serbs, Jews, Ukrainians) between 1941-1945. As per Jonathan Levy, one of the plaintiffs' lawyers, many of the plaintiffs have been reluctant to be photographed, and are still terrified of the Ustashe. Among Serbs, fear of the Ustashe is still particularly strong. For unlike the Nazi Party in Germany, the Ustashe still exists and has a party headquarters in Zagreb. [26]
Have nothing to do with Neo-Nazism and it's manifestation in Croatia, it is just padding and not to the point of the main article. As discussed before, the Nada Sakic misstrial migh be poor judiciary, and the lawsuit in the USA is just another example of padding the article with unecessary fluff, and grasping on anything that has a Ustasha/nazi word in it ! I need to repeat again the two paragraphs are unecessary, weak and not to the point Vodomar 01:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Is that so ?
"B'NAI B'RITH OFFICIAL DOESN'T DOUBT STATE ATTORNEY'S DECISION IS RIGHT Return to the month Index 03. 02. 1999. , 21:41H CET B'NAI B'RITH OFFICIAL DOESN'T DOUBT STATE ATTORNEY'S DECISION IS RIGHT WASHINGTON, Feb 3 (Hina) - The American Jewish organisation B'nai B'rith has no reason to doubt that the decision of the Croatian State Attorney's Office not to continue the proceedings against Nada Sakic is founded, B'nai B'rith's honorary international president Tommy Baer told Hina on Wednesday.
Baer said he believed the Croatian State Attorney would have requested that a trial of Nada Sakic begin, had there been enough evidence to support it.
Adding that only one out of 26 questioned witnesses had - indirectly - put Nada Sakic at the scene of horrid crimes (Stara Gradiska concentration camp), Baer said that, as a former US public prosecutor, he knew that it was not enough to issue an indictment.
Baer said his organisation was helping and had established cooperation with Croatian authorities in important issues, such as trials of war criminals from the time of Nazism.
In his capacity as president of B'nai B'rith, Bear had visited Croatia on two occasions, and in 1995 he met Croatian President Franjo Tudjman on the Brijuni isles.
Baer said his organisation did not have and therefore could not give to Croatian authorities any evidence or testimonies of witnesses on possible crimes committed by Nada Sakic.
Speaking about the alleged evidence Belgrade claimed to have, Bear wondered why Yugoslav authorities had not forwarded that evidence to Croatia.
He declined to comment on the views of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre regarding the proceedings that had been carried out against Nada Sakic in Croatia.
Commenting on a proposal by Simon Wiesenthal Centre director Ephraim Zuroff that Yugoslavia request Sakic's extradition, Baer said she was a Croatian citizen and he believed that, although such requests should be respected, Croatian laws did not allow for such a possibility.
It would be a different matter if Sakic did not remain in Croatia but, for example, returned to Argentina, he added.
President Tudjman has invited Tommy Baer to be an official observer at the trial of Dinko Sakic, commander of the World War II concentration camp Jasenovac.
Baer confirmed he would attend the trial adding that judicial authorities in Zagreb granted all requests he had made - from simultaneous translation to additional witnesses.
"
http://jagor.srce.hr/sakic/hinanews/arhiva/9902/hina-03-j.html
http://jagor.srce.hr/sakic/hinanews/arhiva/9903/hina-10-v.html
http://jagor.srce.hr/sakic/hinanews/arhiva/9903/hina-03-d.html
http://jagor.srce.hr/sakic/hinanews/arhiva/9910/hina-05-s.html
Can anyone in wikipedia create a new paragraph on the problem of Neo-Nazism in France? I will appreciate it, since France harbors a small undercurrent of anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi gangs. In the early 2000's, several incidents by neo-Nazis against French Jews and Jewish synagogues are reported. The French government wanted to take direct action against the attacks, but declined to really crack down or do anything. The percentage of hate incidents by neo-Nazis and neo-fascists in France is small, compared to what the French media and Jewish interest groups claim, were done by North African Muslims with a binge against Jews over the issue of Israel. The French public mood appears more quiet and fickle over anti-Semitism, but most right thinking French people oppose anti-Semitism and the French Republic tradition of inclusion forbids it as an attack on "fellow Frenchmen/citizens". But the topic is too hot to handle in France, some call it "taboo" and many dare to address anti-Semitism and neo-Nazis a real threat. Also to discuss the Alsatian Nazi problem in the German-speaking region of Alsace, where skinheads are on the rise and some far-right groups hold sympathy to WWII-era Nazism. Some carry a code word "Ich Allemagne" which translates to "I" in German with the French word for Germany. I doubt they want reunification with Germany or are certain the Alsatian Nazis were never terminated after the war. + 207.200.116.134 11:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I've semi-protected this article to protect it from the blocked User:Purger, who (having gone through a series of sockpuppets) is now using anonymous IP addresses from the 4.249.*.* range to avoid his blocks. Unfortunately I don't think I can block this range, as it corresponds to Level 3, a major US ISP - too much collateral damage. -- ChrisO 07:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Chris, if you can also revert the edits that were done by the 4.249.0.0/16 range, that have happened recently in light to the discussion points on this page. This will set a proper level playing field. Vodomar 23:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Neo-Nazis played a huge role in the late 20th century tabloid talk show craze. Many appeared on Jerry Springer. Geraldo had his nose broken in a televised brawl with Neo-nazis. Even the world's only black billionaire Oprah Winfrey confronted a skinhead in her audience(The best of Larry King page 371):
WINFREAY: "I just heard what you said. You just said 'I don't sit with monkeys. You think because she's black, because I'm black, we're monkeys?"
SKINHEAD: "That's a proven fact."
WINFREY: "That's a proven fact? It's a proven fact that I'm a monkey."
SKINHEAD: "Could be."
WINFREY: "Go ahead. Go ahead."
SKINHEAD: "First thing I want to get off my mind is-"
WINFREY: "No, I want to talk about this monkey stuff. No, no, no. I want to talk about the monkey business. I want to talk-"
Later when a riot threatened to break out half the studio audience ended up leaving the studio.
The section is not very neutral:
-- Konstable 06:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Since it is mentioned by the article, it should be linked from White_Aryan_Resistance.
Also, I found that the documentary, White Terror is relevant to this topic
http://enhancetv.com.au/details/displaytv.php?RecordId=12734370&database=Archive.fp5&layout=web_tv
Some of the informaiton may need to be integrated from
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ru%7Dnaz.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=DYM20041217&articleId=318
<incitement to murder removed>
Excuse me, but MHP is not even close to being neo nazi. It is just another right wing conservative party in Turkey, like the republican party in the usa or christian democrats in Germany. The people who maintain this page could at least check things up before resorting to slander of a respectable political organization that commands 10% of the electorate.
Edit this?
The article states:
A trial was held before the Bundesverfassungsgericht (Federal Constitution Court), the highest court in Germany, about the prohibition of the NPD (National Democratic Party), considered (though not proven to be) a Neo-Nazi party.
Yet it still continues to refer to the party as a Neo-Nazi organization, and there is an image showing an NPD rally which is caption as a "Neo-Nazi rally in Germany" thus the article appears to contradict itself. -- Nazrac 04:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I do believe it is the second sentence in the entire article, very true yet very POV... I'm going to remove it now, if anyone opposes this feel free to complain about it. Also, in the "Holocaust Denial" section there are more sneaky words which I am also deleting. If you want people to visit your site, make sure it is related and include a link in the appropriate section. Cissel 17:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The inclusion of several nationalist organisations on this page is inaccurate and renders the category as useless; in particular: British National Party (UK), Australia First Party (Australia), National Action (Australia), Patriotic Youth League (Australia) - none of which are "neo-nazi" parties. I would assume there are other misclassified examples here as well (as evidenced by reading through the above discussion).
To label nationalist groups as "neo-nazi" is as silly as labelling democratic socialist groups as "communist". This page needs to be cleaned up, with several organisations moved to the "nationalist" category [expertise needed].
It seems that biased commentators will classify any group with a political racial basis as "neo-nazi". Obviously, this is not the case, as evidenced by the "racist" nations who fought the Nazis in WW2 (Australia, USA; possibly Canada and UK). Wikipedia should be a bastion of political neutrality and facts, not a bastion of political bias and propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RedDawn ( talk • contribs) [actually, I did sign it, but it was rendered in a box, as I was not aware that one signed by typing four tildes]
1) The journalistic profession is dominated by multiculturalists and multiracialists, often with a political axe to grind, and therefore often use propaganda techniques to paint their political foes in a bad light. The use of the "neo-nazi" slander is a prime example of this. So-called "reputable media" are - in fact - not reputable, and giving their slant creedence is like giving creedence to Lenin's slant on Trotsky.
2) [directly applicable to the point Michalis Famelis makes above] The mainstream media do not label the Australia First Party as “neo-Nazi”, such name-calling (for that is what it is) comes from the globalists and Multiculturalists in their blogs, sites, etc.
As Peter Charles Henderson noted in his BA (Hons) thesis, A History of the Australian Extreme Right Since 1950:
“There is also a tendency to label groups with titles like 'neo-Nazi' as a form of censure even when the group has no links or sympathies toward Nazism. This name calling has originated not only on the left but on the right where terms like 'femi-Nazi', reputedly coined by US talk back radio personality Rush Limbaugh to describe feminists, has gained currency”. http://library.uws.edu.au/adt-NUWS/public/adt-NUWS20030924.134813/index.html (p.8) (see also pages 28-29) It should be noted that Henderson is a leftist (p.31) (all these pages are in the Introduction, 01Front.pdf). Peter Henderson is certainly a reputable source.
Therefore, the classification of the Australia First Party needs to be moved to “Category:Nationalist_parties”, not only for reasons of truth and clarity, but also to abide by Wikipedia guidelines. RedDawn 19:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I know, because I have paternal relatives in Krakow, that in Poland their is a strong neo-Nazi presence as a rejection of the former Communist government, maybe someone should mention that.
I'm JBAK, I just cannot be bothered to log-in, leave any responses to this on my user-page.
I'm seeing bits of vandalism spread across the page; I think it might be necessary to semi-protect this page until it can be cleared of at least blatant vandalism. -- akuyume T C 02:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Next there will be Pakistani Neo-Nazis!! They are fair, they are Caucasian and they have Aryan heritage!! Many have Greek heritage like the Pashtuns and the Kalasha!!DELETE THE IMAGE OF GREEK NEO-NAZIS NOW!!
There are Greek neonazis. They are Caucasian (their skin is white, you don't need to be blond to be caucasian) and yes, they have Aryan heritage. See also Hrisi Avgi. You are idiot if you believe that the Pashtuns and the Kalasha are Greeks. Have you ever seen a Greek person? If you have, you would have noticed that they are white. Mitsos 12:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let me explain about the Pashtuns and the Kalasha. The articles says that they are descendants of Alexander the Great's army. These people are only 10% Greek. Just think about it. Some soldiers of Alexander the Great stayed at Pakistan and married Pakistani women. Their children married Pakistanis too, and that continued for more than 1000 years!!! So, these people have far more Pakistani blood than Greek blood. Mitsos 13:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Many Greeks are not even White! Some look more middle-Eastern/Central Asian than anything else! ( Read the book ` Black Athena'!). A Nazi is a member of the NSDAP. Former Neo-Nazi Ingo Hasselbach stated in his book (Fuehrer-ex)that many of Germany's neo-Nazis found Southern Europeans in the scene to be stupid and laughable and that "only a Nordic could be a National Socialist" (in his words). The Nazis invaded Greece and killed many Greeks, How can they be Nazis? There is a big neo-Nazi scene in Russia and Hitler hated Russians, hethought they were racially inferior. He turned that nation into a human incinerator! I could see `Japanese Neo-Nazis' more justafiable than them!! By the way, I do not think Pashtuns and Kalasha are Greek, They are descended from Aryans. Have any of you considered how many Greeks could have Northern Indian ancestry, considering much of that area was also a part of the Persian Empire and Persian troops from that region possibly invaded Greece?? P.S. Pashtuns are an Iranian not Indo-Aryan Ethnic group.
Your knowlege of history needs to be improved. Greece was never a part of the Persian Empire. The Persians invaded Greece, but the Greeks beat them in the battles of Themopylae and Salamina. I recommend you to visit either Greece or a psychologist. The Greeks are all White (except from the African and Asian immigrants who have come to Greece in the past few years). The book "Black Athena" is a pile of crap!!!! There are thousands of books that prove the ancient Greeks were Mediterannean Whites, just like the modern Greeks. Look at the ancient Greek statues, for Gods sake!!!!! Other books, by mostly German authors, say that the ancient Greeks were Nordics (see Nordic theory)!!! Again, the ancient Greeks were Mediterannean Whites, just like the modern Greeks. About the Greek neo-nazi movement, see Hrisi Avgi. Mitsos 11:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
About WWII, Greece was at war with Germany and Greece lost. During the Axis occupation of Greece during World War II, thousands of Greeks died because of starvation. This was due to: 1) The Germans took all the food from Greece in order to feed their own people, and 2) Because of the British trade embargo no food could come to Greece. The Greek neo-nazis embrace the ideology of National Socialism, not Hitler and the NSDAP in particular. They admire Hitler, because of what he has done for his people, not the Greeks. Mitsos 11:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I generally don't care about what you have said till now. I would like to see the references that the author should enter. Especially for the first paragraph about the Pelloponese. This is an encyclopaedia is not a blog, we don't write our opinions, we should support everything we write with published work.
agmpinia
23:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
"Russia may seem like an unlikely place for a flowering of Neo-Nazi movements due to the strong memories of the devastation that was wrought on the nation by the Nazi German invaders during World War II" do you think other countries like Belgium, Norway or UK (among others) were not devasted by german nazis in WWII? pff this phrase about russia doesn't make sense and should be removed. this whole article is a propaganda for nazi anyway with disgusting pictures of assholes proud to wear german uniforms, this is stupid. whatever. how can it be young communists and nazis supporters in 2006? too many people are stupid and don't learn, that's life. Shame On You 14:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Russia lost over 15 million civilians to the Nazis. A far greater number that any other country. 124.187.186.70 07:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Go read a text book or something.
-G
Something should be written about Sumka, the Iranian Neo-Nazi Party. The Idea of Iranian Neo-Nazis sounds laughable, but then so does the idea of Neo-Nazis in Italy, Greece and Russia. Is there an Indian Neo-Nazi party as well? They had contingients who fought in the SS and many could claim Aryan heritage. I wonder if they would be accepted by Neo-Nazis in the U.K.!!
I 've explained that Meditteraneans are White many times. I 'm not going to tell you the same things again. Mitsos 12:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The previous version of the Croatia section focussed on people and events from the World War Two era. That does not fit the definition of neo-Nazism. That version was also horribly formatted, with no separation into paragraphs. I replaced that substandard version with content taken directly from the article Neo-Nazism in Croatia. Twice those improvements have been reverted by an anonymous IP user, with the unfounded accusation of vandalism.
To the anonymous editor: please 1) do not revert productive edits 2) do not make false accusations and 3) sign up for a Wikipedia account so you can be held accountable for your edits and comments. If you have productive additions to that section (including much-needed references), please add them, but do not revert to a version that doesn't discuss the correct topic. Spylab 15:51, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I incorporated some content from the old version into the new version, so now there is absolutely no reason to revert to the old version, which focussed on World War Two people and events instead of neo-Nazism. Spylab 16:36, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Yet again the editor without an account reverted to an inferior version, even though I made an effort to comprimise by combining the two versions. Yet again the editor made a false accusation of vandalism. that editor has also brokent the Wikipedia:Three-revert rule rule by making the exact same revert three times within a 24 hour period. The editor has also incorrectly claimed that the content about WWII people is about the topic of Neo-Nazism. However, wikipedia defines neo-Nazism as "the ideology of post-World War II political movements seeking to revive Nazism or a racist form of fascism." The information that I deleted doesn't seem to meet that criteria. Spylab 16:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
people who suppor the popular view that people were gassed love to put these photos like the one on the main page of this article. the bodies are emaciated. they probably died of typhus not from poisoned gas. this photo probably needs to be removed. Keltik31 21:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Pleae seek constructive discussion on Croatia, or I will seek to have the page protected against further edits until collaborative discussion takes place.-- Cberlet 04:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
This edit war is annoying. Learn some manners. I am seeking page protection. Grow up.-- Cberlet 02:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
OK. This page is now protected. Look, folks, this is a complicated issue, and even though I have extensively studied the fascist period of Croatia, I have no idea how to find an NPOV text. But the folks who have engaged in the edit war do have this expertise, what they lack is a collaborative, constructive attitude. So get over it. Find a compromise. I'll do what I can do help, but is really up to us as a collective editing community. That is the wonderous aspect of Wikipedia.-- Cberlet 03:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem on this and other pages related to neonazism in several European countries, is that in several countries, the fascist and Nazi collaborationist forces later became recast as heroic anti-communists, and their historic fascism, Nazi collaborationism, and anti-semitic actions were sanitized as part of Cold War propoganda. In some cases, these same people did lead movements against communist totalitarianism, yet this should not obscure their other ideas and actions. In Croatia, as in several other countries, the neonazi movements often are tied to earlier interwar and WWII Nazi collaborationist forces, and thus it is not possible to exclude a discussion of this historic set of relationships. However, this discussion should not dominate the section on the particular country. Also, the issue of murderous rampages against Jews and Serbs in the WWII period might need to be raised as part of a discussion of current (and changing) Croatian government attitudes toward specific current fascist political movements, especially if they link themselves back to the interwar/WWII Ustasha.-- Cberlet 17:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's start over. Note the text at the top of the entry that the page is protected "until disputes have been resolved." If both of you (in your own way) refuse to engage in collabortive editing of text here on the discussion page, then the solution is not to keep the page locked, but to seek to have both of you banned from editing this article for some appropriate period of time. Please start placing text here on the discussion page and discussing how it should be edited. Thanks.-- Cberlet 15:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Please keep in mind that this article is supposed to be about neo-Nazism (emphasis on neo), and that there is a full article on neo-Nazism in Croatia, which discusses all aspects of the topic in more detail, including the movement's origins in World War Two Nazism. Spylab 16:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
So, Spylab, is there a compromise version that you can craft?-- Cberlet 03:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Alleanza Nazionale classified as a neo-nazi organization? Are we kidding? Please remove it. 82.58.169.151 08:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see some proof that the person on that picture is actually a "militant Neo-Nazi in Germany". What tells us that he really is a) militant, b) a Neo-Nazi and c) in Germany? As long as there is no proof for that, I suggest a new title for the image: "Armed person in front of a swastika flag."-- 62.214.246.78 23:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, I uploaded this image. It is my friend. It was taken at our stash spot in Frankonia. It was taken with my canon powershot A90. Dont know how it ended up on wikipedia but it just became to my attention. Thank you! (I can send you anotehr picture of him if you dont believe me!) Usurpsynapse 12:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I've attached to this section the totallydisputed tag due to a few issues
Also, mentioning Srebrenica atrocities has nothing to do with neo-Nazism in Serbia nor Srebrenica is in Serbia. Mentioning Serbian ultranationalist Seselj here is quite clearly out of context.
My proposal is to delete this section or write the text truly particular to the neo-Nazism in Serbia.
Wiki article on National_Power_Union identifies it as " far-right nationalist political party". That in my opinion corresponds well with what can be read in their program (in Latvian). [Neo]-nazi (as in national-socialist)? I don't believe so. Could someone quote a reliable source in support of their inclusion here? -- Doc15071969 23:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
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Please, remove phrase neo-Chetniks in Serbia from Analogous European movements since there is no single reference branding neo-Chetniks in Serbia as an European movement analogous to nazism 178.223.95.72 ( talk) 19:33, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
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Please, remove phrase neo-Chetniks in Serbia from Analogous European movements since there is no single reference branding neo-Chetniks in Serbia as an European movement analogous to nazism. My request is quite clear - no references supporting the claim. Response to Beyond My Ken: The article is about neo-nazism, not about chetniks, not about fascism. 178.223.95.72 ( talk) 06:30, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
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Beyond My Ken, you may wish to read WP:OVERCITE. In regards to your comment here, "PLEASE STOP REMOVING VALID SOURCE CITATIONS FROM THE ARTICLE. AN/I IS THE NEXT STOP", I can only point out that removing "valid source citations" is entirely appropriate when the citations are being added for no good reason. Shouting at me in capitals does not make your point any more valid. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 04:27, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
That you and I are in an editing dispute here, and that in the middle of it you go to an article you've never edited before right after I edit it, that's prima facie evidence of Wikihounding. I ask you here and now to stop: stop removing valid citations I add to this article, and stop shadowing me. I will not be intimidated by your actions, and I will take you to AN/I if you don't stop.This is my last communication with you on this subject. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 04:49, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Hounding on Wikipedia (or "wikihounding") is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Hounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia.
FreeKnowledgeCreator, you objected to a word being included in the article on the grounds it was uncited. Beyond My Ken added a cite. You are now removing that cite because of "citation overkill". Have I got this right? -- NeilN talk to me 08:24, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
and then go on to comment in the edit summary of a null editrm 'and implement' as uncited (emphasis added) [28]
It is you and you alone who insisted that "and implement" be cited, then you turn around remove one of the citatons I added, and now you say "The problem with it was never primarily that it was uncited. ... Furthermore... the claim that neo-Nazis want to "implement" their ideology is not a "contentious and/or exceptional claim". It is a totally unremarkable claim...", but it was you and you alone who turned into into a "contentious claim" by disputing it. You're being intellectually dishonest, playing both sides of the street. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 22:06, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Beyond My Ken, as already noted, the material you restored is uncited. It thus violates WP:VERIFY. There is no source that supports "and implement". Why would you restore uncited material? [29]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
On 24 March, User:LightandDark2000 added the words "and implement" to the sentence, so that it readNeo-Nazism consists of post-World War II militant social or political movements seeking to revive the ideology of Nazism.
The purpose of this RfC is to determine whether "and implement" – or other equivalent or near-equivalent phrases, such as "and establish" or "and put into effect" – should be kept in the opening sentence, or if it should be reverted to the original version. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 01:42, 4 April 2018 (UTC)Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II militant social or political movements seeking to revive and implement the ideology of Nazism.
This
edit request to
Neo-Nazism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change: "In the German Democratic Republic a former member of SA, Wilhelm Adam, founded the National Democratic Party of Germany." to "In the German Democratic Republic a former member of the SA, Wilhelm Adam, founded the National Democratic Party of Germany." because the former sentence is grammatically incorrect (see /info/en/?search=Sturmabteilung, https://www.britannica.com/topic/SA-Nazi-organization). Thank you. FilmTheory ( talk) 04:28, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
I've deleted improper content of the Serbia section added by someone. The added content is about alleged neo-fascism in Serbia. We have two different Wikipedia articles: Neo-nazism and Neo-fascism and there is no need for arbitrarily mixing their contents on the basis of some "closely-related" or "relevant" opinion-- Богаљ Рајовић ( talk) 10:22, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the description "homosexual". It's a atraight-forward description of a person's sexual orientation. "Gay" is fine as well, except (1) it's more informal than "homosexual", and we are an encyclopedia, and (2) It's somewhat ambiguous, as in many contexts it refers to homosexual men, as in the expression "LGBTQ" is which "L" stands for "Lesbian" (i.e. female homosexuals), and "G" stands for "Gay" (i.e. male homosexual}. Certainly there's nothing wrong with a homosexual woman referring to herself as a "gay woman", but the ambiguity of the word is still a fact, meaning that the unambiguous terms is the better choice. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 00:51, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Personally, I made the change because "anti-gay" seems like the more common and natural expression, whereas "anti-homosexual" sounds stilted. This is supported by Google search, with over 12 million results for "anti-gay" and only 286,000 for "anti-homosexual" (almost two orders of magnitude). "Anti-lesbian" hasn't caught on either, and "anti-gay" is frequently used for homophobia in general. Furthermore, the skinheads are opposed to gay men, but it's not clear that they're opposed to lesbians, or how virulently so. The reasons stated by FKC also make a case for a change. But mostly I am puzzled why the choice between two semantically equivalent words has been allowed to blow up into an extensive discussion, when there are more important issues with this article. Catrìona ( talk) 05:44, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
I believe that the lead requires additional material as noted. It needs to note that neo-Nazism is on the far-right of the political spectrum, something it currently does not note explicitly. It needs to note of neo-Nazis that "They are chronologically separated from the original Nazism of the German Nazi Party". It needs to note explicitly that neo-Nazis are opposed to democracy and to provide added context to explain the history of neo-Nazism. The lead needs to note which particular version of racism it is that neo-Nazis believe in, in particular that they are biological racists and believe that the Nordic race is inherently superior. The lead needs to explain clearly what anti-semitism and Holocaust denial are, it needs to note that neo-Nazis are interested in conspiracy theories, and it needs to note that escaped Nazis, such as some of those who escaped to Latin America, helped influence neo-Nazism. It needs to note the involvement of neo-Nazis in electoral politics, and their involvement with the skinhead movement. I suggest that some of the text visible in this version of the lead should be restored to help explain all these matters. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 05:42, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
Beyond My Ken, I do not think that this edit, which changed "seeking to revive the ideology of Nazism" to "seeking to revive and implement the ideology of Nazism" is reasonable. I think that it is unnecessary, bad writing, and confused. A reader of normal intelligence can be expected to understand that if someone thinks an ideology should be revived, then they also think that the ideology should be acted upon. Actually reviving an ideology by definition means taking action based on that ideology. The editor who added "and implement" perhaps assumed that reviving an ideology does not necessarily involve acting upon it. The assumption is incorrect; reviving an ideology by definition involves acting upon it. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 02:25, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I understand the nuance in adding implement, but the source used for this sentence (almost exactly, at the beginning of #Definition) does not include another word, only revive. If we're to argue that the source's use of only that word is not sufficient, where does the body support the inclusion of a more specific word/phrase to convey "and act upon" or similar? Another source attached to the sentence uses the word propagate ("the attempt to propagate"), which is slightly different from revive—perhaps to spread or increase vs. to renew, respectively—but doesn't really change the sentence's overall meaning. I think meanings of revive fit the sentence, e.g. "to restore to consciousness or life" or "to restore from a depressed, inactive, or unused state : bring back" ( M-W). It would make more sense to keep the lead sentence as concise as possible to give the reader the picture and prevent them from becoming discouraged, and then splitting the sources at the beginning of #Definition into separate sentences to describe the ways, in their subtle forms, that Neo-Nazism is being revived, propagated, completed/realized/implemented, etc. Whether or not "put into action" is implied when an ideology is "revived", I'd be interested in seeing a source that has a short definition of the term and uses something to mean "put into action". Rhinopias ( talk) 06:13, 29 March 2018 (UTC) |
The lead fail to "stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." WP:LEAD There is a lot that has no mention, especially about the history and the contemporary issues. Rupert Loup ( talk) 23:06, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this section should be included in the article because I think that it was added to imply Neo-Nazism in regards to the Constitutional Court's practice prior to my explanation on why the Court actually annulled those amendments (which is merely due to procedural breaches and not because the Court was against their content as implied before; And by the way, that verdict is significant for the whole Croatian legal system because the Court set out its position on what the organic law is, thus defining it, because it wasn't defined by the Constitution). What's your opinion? United Union ( talk) 18:37, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
"In 2003, a group of 56 Croatian MP's voted in favor of amendments to the Croatian penal code which contained provisions prohibiting the public display of Nazi symbols, the propagation of Nazi ideology, historical revisionism and holocaust denial. Later that year, Constitutional Court of Croatia annulled the amendments since they were not enacted based on the constitutionally prescribed procedure requiring the majority of 76 out of 151 MP's. The Court didn't question the amendments' content but merely legislative procedure true which they were enacted since the Court is authorized only for that. Nevertheless, an amendment was added in 2006 by which any type of hate crime based on factors such as race, color, gender, sexual orientation, religion or national origin was explicitly prohibited."
The article includes a "criticism" section mentioning some comments two people made about Neo-Nazism. I am sure that section was well-intentioned, however, in my view, it does not serve a legitimate encyclopedic purpose and should be removed. There are many things wrong with it. The fundamental problem is that it is not appropriate to include "criticism" of an extreme political ideology that obviously has no mainstream acceptability or credibility, as though that ideology were something that needed to be debunked or discredited by Wikipedia. Mentioning "criticism" of Neo-Nazism implies that the ideology might be considered credible in the absence of criticism of it, and that is not something Wikipedia should be doing. In the absence of anything whatever that might suggest that Neo-Nazism is an acceptable mainstream view, it is counter-productive to Wikipedia's credibility to include a section arguing against it. Instead of including "criticism" of Neo-Nazism, as though it were an arguable view that required some counter-argument to disprove it, the article should simply note that it is not a mainstream position, that it is illegal in some countries, and so on. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 04:45, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
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I think we need to be very careful in the Ukraine section to avoid falling into Russian state propaganda. There is no doubt that Svoboda, Right Sector and the Azov Battalion are very much on the far-right of politics, however, categorising these groups unambiguously as neo-Nazi is highly questionable. These groups look back to Stepan Bandera and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army as their inspiration, who was at times pro-Axis and at times anti-Axis. This isn't like the Golden Dawn scenario where the leaders have all been photographed in Nazi uniforms, promoting Hitler in their literature or have Nazi tattoos. In the conflict between Russia and the Ukraine in general (including Banderaites), the former are very cleverly, in a slight-of-hand Byzantine way, trying to portray the Euromaidan/Ukrainian position as "Nazism" in general as a justification for invading territories. The reality is far more nuanced than that. Especially since the Russian side in Donetsk, etc, are backed up by Duginites, Russian National Unity elements, who have a far better claim to the title neo-Nazi. IMO we should neither be pushing Russian or NATO propaganda but remain objective. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 13:26, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
There have been some improvements, but still a lot of problematic interpretations in this section, which gives it a bit of a Greater Russian patriot stench and it needs to include mention of pro-Russian neo-Nazis in the Donbass and rest of the East on the other side. A lot of this is very tendentious and strays into taking sides on the Russia-Ukraine conflict. I'll just give two examples for now;
Our article claims: "The Svoboda party mayor in Konotop reportedly has the number "14/88" displayed"
The Jerusalem Post article we cite says, "According to reports, Semenikhin drives around in a car bearing the number 14/88."
What reports these are the Jerusalem Post does not say, making this complete hearsay and since we are using this as supposed evidence to portray the Ukrainians as Hitler-loving neo-Nazis, we would need some better evidence for this claim than mere anonymous rumor.
Our article claims: "has implied that Jews were responsible for the Holodomor."
JP reference says:
"However, while the mayor attempts to make sure his statements never cross over into outright anti-Semitism, many things he says can be interpreted in such a way, he continued. As an example, he referred to a recent statement by Semenikhin in which the mayor refused to apologize for anti-Jewish actions taken by far-right nationalists in World War II, intimating that it was because those responsible for the Holodomor famine of the 1930s were largely Jewish."
So, the Jerusalem Post actually claims that Semnikhin does not make anti-semitic statements, but has stated the people involved in the "Holomodor" were largely Jewish, not that "the Jews were responsible". We would need to see a direct quote as evidence for this, since in common practice, Jews come in third in the traditional Banderite list of hostilities, behind Russians and Poles. The usual Banderite line on "the Holomodor" is that it was a Muscovite-Russian imperialist attempt to wipe out Ukrainian culture and nationalism. The anti-Jewish angle is secondary. Anti-semitic aspersions isn't necessarily evidence that they are neo-Nazis, the Poles and others in the region aren't particularly friendly with Jews either, yet that doesn't mean they want to revive Hitlerism. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 21:41, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
— The head of the Israel-Ukraine inter-parliamentary association, Israel is Our Home Party MP Alex Miller, has said he does not understand why the Ukrainian opposition signed a coalition agreement with an "anti-Semitic" party - the Svoboda All-Ukrainian Union… According to the Ukrainian Jewish Committee, Svoboda is a fascist party, and its full name - the Social-National Party of Ukraine - was chosen in association with the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP).
— The Wiesenthal Center also cited Oleh Tyahnybok (No. 5) from the fascist Ukrainian Svoboda party. He urged purges of the approximately 400,000 Jews and other minorities living in the Ukraine and has demanded that the country be liberated from the "Muscovite Jewish Mafia." Ukrainian MP Igor Miroshnichenko was cited for anti-Jewish remarks as well: He called Ukrainian-born American actress Mila Kunis a "zhydovka" (dirty Jewess).
— In their propaganda, SNPU ideologues were more open, describing the confrontation with "Muscovite influence" as racial. SNPU publications proudly called the Ukrainian nation the "root of the white race." Ukraine was viewed as an "outpost of European civilization" and Russia as an "Asiatic horde." Ukraine—according to Andriy Parubiy, one of the SNPU leaders (who later joined Our Ukraine)—must "confront the aggressiveness of the pernicious ideas of the Asiatic world, today embodied in Russia.
— The Ukrainian National Assembly (UNA), KUN and Svoboda are also Russophobic and anti-semitic. Moreover, 'white racism' is overtly or covertly inherent in the doctrines of the UNA, Svoboda and All-Ukrainian Party'New Force' (Nova Syla), and most evidently manifests itself through the parties' anti-immigrant positions.!
— But Svoboda's positions are somewhat at odds with the EU's ideals of tolerance and multiculturalism, to put it mildly: It is a driving force behind Ukraine's anti-gay rights movement; the party's platform supports distributing government positions to various ethnicities according to their percentage makeup of the population; and, despite recent claims to the contrary, it remains, at least among its leadership, a deeply anti-Semitic organization (one deputy in parliament has described the Holocaust as a "bright period" for Europe.)-- Tobby72 ( talk) 07:22, 15 July 2017 (UTC)