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Regarding this recent edit [1], instead of just reverting, I wanted to call attention to some inconsistencies. While white supremacy IS already linked, I did not see many of the others, so it may possible this editor accidentally overlooked some of the changes that may indeed have WEIGHT. Thoughts? DN ( talk) 01:27, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
[2] So before we continue this back and forth (which may or may not be likely), could we get some discussion as to the reasons for AND against these changes? Is it WP:MOS related? Please cite or link related policies, guidelines and previous consensus or RfCs...Thanks. DN ( talk) 17:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Neo-Confederates are groups and individuals who portray the Confederate States of America and its actions during the American Civil War in a positive light. The League of the South, the Sons of Confederate Veterans and other neo-Confederate organizations continue to defend the secession of the former Confederate States.
@ Darknipples: To address your question about the link: the neo-Confederates and neo-Nazis (ie, fascists) marched side-by-side at the Unite the Right rally with common stated goals, and that link is well-documented in many sources. @ OgamD218: As consensus is pretty clearly against your removals of the See Also links that I've restored, I'd stop edit warring at this point if I were you. Wes sideman ( talk) 12:15, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Marching "side-by-side" and saying NC are "much like" a fascist movement is not RS, let alone an explicit consensus by RS. The only mention of fascism in the article with RS is at the end and includes these cites [3] [4] [5] I managed to find a few academic opinions on my own that made a correlation, but that would require attribution and isn't very compelling. I should also mention I do not subscribe to NYT or WaPo so it would help to share any explicit quotes that include NC and facist movement in the same sentence, paragraph etc...No offense, but this is starting to look like WP:SYNTH, if I'm being completely honest here. I hope you see my point. Best of luck. Cheers. DN ( talk) 08:19, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
@ DN I too have no affinity for this backwards movement but this is an encyclopedia and its hard to pretend this editor isn't just POV pushing. If the content they just added to the was truthful my position may be different however in context they so demonstrably misrepresented the facts their edit arguably rises to the level of vandalism. @ Wes sideman if we are the ones who are wrong here then please, by all means, reply with a direct quote(s), from an impartial authority, not an editorial, from any of the sources that according to you are "all over the article"..... OgamD218 ( talk) 22:42, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that the only people that aren't "critics" of neo-Confederates are... neo-Confederates. Maybe neo-Nazis too. The cited sources doesn't make such an equivocation. As such, the old wording is fine. Pretty sure WP:NONAZIS can be applied here. I don't know why one editor is trying to soften the image of Neo-Confederates in this article and I don't care about why. I just know it's not a NPOV. Wes sideman ( talk) 13:17, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
Work it out on talk, please. Bishonen | tålk 16:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC).
@ Lectonar: An issue throughout is Wes's strategy of ignoring Talk and just making things up re the page's edit history. They're aware that their changes are recent, in fact very recent and only went to Talk after being called out by Bishonen for incorrectly claiming other editors than themselves were restoring their changes. At Talk they failed to gain consensus and stopped participating altogether once the 1st protection template was put in place. Since then they've edit wared and posted false info about the situation on this thread and to the Talk of editors they believe likely to side with them but continued to ignore the Talk discussion. OgamD218 ( talk) 00:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
I also disagree, a discussion was had and the weight of it was against incl of WS's NPOV unsourced edits. Every discussion thread fizzled out after WS refused requests to specify sourcing for their claim NC is inherently fascist-an assertion contradicted by multiple sources actually cited in the article. From the start WS has pursued a strategy of edit warring, making things up and begging Bishonen to intervene for them-in fact they only came to talk after multiple attempts at this failed. OgamD218 reverted every change I've made to the article, full stop
I haven't even touched most of their edits, not to mention reverted. WS's refusal to stop making things up and engage in a good faith discussion has hindered substantive progress. EG I fixed a sentence to accurately reflect sources and state *critics of NCs often label them fascists, but any alteration to their npov edits is unacceptable to WS, according to whom NCs are considered fascist by apparently anyone who isn't a Nazi. The RfC proposal is no exception, as in the talk discussions, WS restated their NPOV, claims are either absent in the sources or completely stripped of relevant context, when asked where the content is contained in the sources they again outright refused and once the protection tag expired immediately restored their NPOV edit, falsely claiming consensus.
OgamD218 (
talk)
06:35, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
Should the following paragraph be included in the article?
In the 1930s, self-described fascist publisher Seward Collins provided an avenue for white supremacists and neo-Confederates to advance their ideology in The American Review, a literary journal openly sympathetic to European fascism. [1] The connections and overlap between white supremacist, fascist, far-right, and neo-Confederate ideologies have persisted and remain in place in the present day. [2]
Wes sideman( talk) 13:55, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
References
BTW...There has been no discussion (apart from the bit below from the initiator) about this so why the RfC already? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukewarmbeer ( talk • contribs)
Regarding this RfC, editors should take into consideration that the citations provided after both sentences, do not affirm the preceding claims. According to actual sources in article, outreach attempts by fascist in 1930s and 40s were resoundingly rebuffed by Neo-Confederates, starting in the 1970s neo-nazi groups again tried appealing to NCs by adopting symbols such as the Confederate battle flag, which was generally met with derision by NCs. [1] Though some more extreme NC groups have found common cause with fascists, sources widely agree this is rooted in shared support for white supremacy, not fascism. Editors may also want to review the above discussions and edit history. OgamD218 ( talk) 03:13, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
In the 1930s, self-described fascist publisher Seward Collins provided an avenue for white supremacists and neo-Confederates to advance their ideology in The American Review, a literary journal openly sympathetic to European fascism."
Openly sympathetic toward European fascism, the American Review provided a venue for the Southern Agrarians to advance their ideology, attack those whom they envisioned as critical of the South, and vigorously defend white supremacy." That sentence has a footnote attached to it, and it says, "
See, for example, the unattributed editorial from 1933 (although the editor of the issue was Seward Collins) ... which argued that Hitler's rise to power ended 'the Communist threat forever' and that the persecution of Jews 'if ... true' was a 'negligible' aspect of the Nazi regime."
There have long been ties between Neo-Confederacy and facists.[Needs a source] In the early 20th century, The American Review, a literary journal openly sympathetic to European fascism, served as a forum for white supremacists to advance their ideology. [2] And ... (two / three more examples).
References
I removed the unexplained addition of the WikiProject Terrorism banner as I think this article is outside scope of that project. Article does not discuss terrorism in relation to Neo-Confederates, or even mention the word. Nor does it mention any terrorist or criminal acts of violence to bring about political change. While the American Civil War was a military action, this article appears to be about a post-Civil War revision of the history by the losing side for political reasons. If terrorism is involved, it is not apparent from this article. If somebody can sensibly explain the inclusion rationale, I will be happy to have the banner added back. - Cameron Dewe ( talk) 12:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
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3,
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![]() | The
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designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
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Regarding this recent edit [1], instead of just reverting, I wanted to call attention to some inconsistencies. While white supremacy IS already linked, I did not see many of the others, so it may possible this editor accidentally overlooked some of the changes that may indeed have WEIGHT. Thoughts? DN ( talk) 01:27, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
[2] So before we continue this back and forth (which may or may not be likely), could we get some discussion as to the reasons for AND against these changes? Is it WP:MOS related? Please cite or link related policies, guidelines and previous consensus or RfCs...Thanks. DN ( talk) 17:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Neo-Confederates are groups and individuals who portray the Confederate States of America and its actions during the American Civil War in a positive light. The League of the South, the Sons of Confederate Veterans and other neo-Confederate organizations continue to defend the secession of the former Confederate States.
@ Darknipples: To address your question about the link: the neo-Confederates and neo-Nazis (ie, fascists) marched side-by-side at the Unite the Right rally with common stated goals, and that link is well-documented in many sources. @ OgamD218: As consensus is pretty clearly against your removals of the See Also links that I've restored, I'd stop edit warring at this point if I were you. Wes sideman ( talk) 12:15, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Marching "side-by-side" and saying NC are "much like" a fascist movement is not RS, let alone an explicit consensus by RS. The only mention of fascism in the article with RS is at the end and includes these cites [3] [4] [5] I managed to find a few academic opinions on my own that made a correlation, but that would require attribution and isn't very compelling. I should also mention I do not subscribe to NYT or WaPo so it would help to share any explicit quotes that include NC and facist movement in the same sentence, paragraph etc...No offense, but this is starting to look like WP:SYNTH, if I'm being completely honest here. I hope you see my point. Best of luck. Cheers. DN ( talk) 08:19, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
@ DN I too have no affinity for this backwards movement but this is an encyclopedia and its hard to pretend this editor isn't just POV pushing. If the content they just added to the was truthful my position may be different however in context they so demonstrably misrepresented the facts their edit arguably rises to the level of vandalism. @ Wes sideman if we are the ones who are wrong here then please, by all means, reply with a direct quote(s), from an impartial authority, not an editorial, from any of the sources that according to you are "all over the article"..... OgamD218 ( talk) 22:42, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that the only people that aren't "critics" of neo-Confederates are... neo-Confederates. Maybe neo-Nazis too. The cited sources doesn't make such an equivocation. As such, the old wording is fine. Pretty sure WP:NONAZIS can be applied here. I don't know why one editor is trying to soften the image of Neo-Confederates in this article and I don't care about why. I just know it's not a NPOV. Wes sideman ( talk) 13:17, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
Work it out on talk, please. Bishonen | tålk 16:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC).
@ Lectonar: An issue throughout is Wes's strategy of ignoring Talk and just making things up re the page's edit history. They're aware that their changes are recent, in fact very recent and only went to Talk after being called out by Bishonen for incorrectly claiming other editors than themselves were restoring their changes. At Talk they failed to gain consensus and stopped participating altogether once the 1st protection template was put in place. Since then they've edit wared and posted false info about the situation on this thread and to the Talk of editors they believe likely to side with them but continued to ignore the Talk discussion. OgamD218 ( talk) 00:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
I also disagree, a discussion was had and the weight of it was against incl of WS's NPOV unsourced edits. Every discussion thread fizzled out after WS refused requests to specify sourcing for their claim NC is inherently fascist-an assertion contradicted by multiple sources actually cited in the article. From the start WS has pursued a strategy of edit warring, making things up and begging Bishonen to intervene for them-in fact they only came to talk after multiple attempts at this failed. OgamD218 reverted every change I've made to the article, full stop
I haven't even touched most of their edits, not to mention reverted. WS's refusal to stop making things up and engage in a good faith discussion has hindered substantive progress. EG I fixed a sentence to accurately reflect sources and state *critics of NCs often label them fascists, but any alteration to their npov edits is unacceptable to WS, according to whom NCs are considered fascist by apparently anyone who isn't a Nazi. The RfC proposal is no exception, as in the talk discussions, WS restated their NPOV, claims are either absent in the sources or completely stripped of relevant context, when asked where the content is contained in the sources they again outright refused and once the protection tag expired immediately restored their NPOV edit, falsely claiming consensus.
OgamD218 (
talk)
06:35, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
Should the following paragraph be included in the article?
In the 1930s, self-described fascist publisher Seward Collins provided an avenue for white supremacists and neo-Confederates to advance their ideology in The American Review, a literary journal openly sympathetic to European fascism. [1] The connections and overlap between white supremacist, fascist, far-right, and neo-Confederate ideologies have persisted and remain in place in the present day. [2]
Wes sideman( talk) 13:55, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
References
BTW...There has been no discussion (apart from the bit below from the initiator) about this so why the RfC already? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukewarmbeer ( talk • contribs)
Regarding this RfC, editors should take into consideration that the citations provided after both sentences, do not affirm the preceding claims. According to actual sources in article, outreach attempts by fascist in 1930s and 40s were resoundingly rebuffed by Neo-Confederates, starting in the 1970s neo-nazi groups again tried appealing to NCs by adopting symbols such as the Confederate battle flag, which was generally met with derision by NCs. [1] Though some more extreme NC groups have found common cause with fascists, sources widely agree this is rooted in shared support for white supremacy, not fascism. Editors may also want to review the above discussions and edit history. OgamD218 ( talk) 03:13, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
In the 1930s, self-described fascist publisher Seward Collins provided an avenue for white supremacists and neo-Confederates to advance their ideology in The American Review, a literary journal openly sympathetic to European fascism."
Openly sympathetic toward European fascism, the American Review provided a venue for the Southern Agrarians to advance their ideology, attack those whom they envisioned as critical of the South, and vigorously defend white supremacy." That sentence has a footnote attached to it, and it says, "
See, for example, the unattributed editorial from 1933 (although the editor of the issue was Seward Collins) ... which argued that Hitler's rise to power ended 'the Communist threat forever' and that the persecution of Jews 'if ... true' was a 'negligible' aspect of the Nazi regime."
There have long been ties between Neo-Confederacy and facists.[Needs a source] In the early 20th century, The American Review, a literary journal openly sympathetic to European fascism, served as a forum for white supremacists to advance their ideology. [2] And ... (two / three more examples).
References
I removed the unexplained addition of the WikiProject Terrorism banner as I think this article is outside scope of that project. Article does not discuss terrorism in relation to Neo-Confederates, or even mention the word. Nor does it mention any terrorist or criminal acts of violence to bring about political change. While the American Civil War was a military action, this article appears to be about a post-Civil War revision of the history by the losing side for political reasons. If terrorism is involved, it is not apparent from this article. If somebody can sensibly explain the inclusion rationale, I will be happy to have the banner added back. - Cameron Dewe ( talk) 12:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)