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Classification of central italy dialects as "Neapolitan"
I don't think the phrase:
as well as throughout most of southern Italy including the Gaeta and Sora districts of southern Lazio, the southern part of Ascoli province in Marche, most of Abruzzo, Molise, Basilicata, northern Calabria, and northern and central Apulia.
is completely correct.
I'm not a linguist, but i'm italian, and i live in central Italy; some parts of above categorisation seem to me not completely correct.
In Gaeta and Sora, although spoken language being different from "Napoli's neapolitan", i can agree that "Neapolitan" is an enough good classification. I guess the same holds, at least to some extent, looking at Molise and Basilicata. Situation of Calabria is well explained below so i won't spend more words upon.
What i really do not understand is classifying as "Neapolitan" the italian dialects spoken in Apulia, Abruzzo and most of all Marche. Believe me, dialect of Marche has very little in common with Neapolitan... i guess also that most people from that region would "jump on their chairs" reading such a thing. The same holds about Abruzzo, where we should distinguish among at least 3 different families of dialects - see for reference http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IT , looking at "Italian" section. About Apulia, i honestly don't know whether to classify it as a Neapolitan derivative or a dialect of his own, but i think this deserves at least some serious discussion.
LINGUISTIC DEMARCATIONS
which forum? if it is the yahoo one run by carmine then yes, if not then no. so then how do we classify these languages? do we make a separate classification for northern calabrese? I am not a linguist so i don't know. The problem is there is no official language standard. there are differences between napulitano and n. calbrese too, just as there are differences in salerno napulitano, amalfi napulitano.....
you make good points and comparisons though. -- espo111 05:48, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi Frank,
Are you the same Frank I've spoken to in the 'O Nnapolitano forum? Ciao cumpà! The problem with Calabria is that it is a region. The dialects of Calabria are so different from each other (in a direction from north to south) that you cannot group all of the dialects of Calabria as a single language. Cultural differences cannot be used to group languages, because you can look at Canada and the United States, as an example. For the most part, both countries speak the English language, although both countries are very different culturally, and even widening this idea, add in the U.K., Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand. Yes, subtle differences exist between these countries, but they are for the most part based on accents, or idiomatic. Even the cultural differences among the English speaking nations do not result in each country having a 'different' language.
Comparing Spanish and Catalan can be another example of cultural differences. However, the two languages are different because of historical reasons, and above all else, they are separated because of the lexicon, syntax, vocabulary, sentence structure, and so many other reasons.
Which leads me to my last argument about the Calabrian dialects. Again, clearly, if you look at the Sicilian or Neapolitan language groups, you can take a look at the lexicon, syntax, look at the personal pronouns, the adverbs, the prepositions, the intonation, and notice the stark contrasts. Then take the Calabrian dialects, and notice they cannot be grouped together as one. The southern ones belong to the Sicilian group, the northern ones belong to the Neapolitan group. These are not ideas of fantasy, I have provided many documents to support this already widely held theory on the linguistic classifications of Italo-Romance.
But in closing, just by analyzing the information on this main page of the Neapolitan language, you will see how the Calabrian dialects are not related to each other, and cannot be grouped linguistically or even culturally. Like Sicily, Southern Calabria has had a far different history than northern Calabria or Naples, especially when it comes to influence by the Arab and Middle Eastern peoples.
N.C. Northern Calabrian (Neapolitan) ------------------- S.C. Southern Calabrian (Sicilian)
Patre nuorru chi sta ntru cielu ------------------- Tata nostru chi' sini nt'o celu,
*contrast N.C. patre with S.C. tata (Sicilianesque word) *notice the grammatical difference N.C. sta (stare) versus S.C> sini (essere, sei, Italian) *notice the pure use of S.C. celu (as one sees in Sicilian, from celum) versus the dipthongized form of N.C. cielu
chi sia santificatu u nume tuoio ------------------- ù si tena pe' santu u noma toi
*now look at the possessive adjectives... N.C. tuoio (with the dipthong like Italian tuo) *S.C. toi, no dipthong like the standard Sicilian vowel system
venisse u riegnu tuoio ------------------- ù vena u rregnu toi,
*again, the dipthongization - N.C. riegnu versus S.C. rregnu (Latin regnum), also tuoio/toi
se facisse a vuluntà tuoia ------------------- ù si facia a voluntà
sia ntru cielu ca nterra. ------------------- com'esta nt'o celu, u stessa sup'a terra.
Ranne oje u pane nuorro e tutti i juorni ------------------- Dùnandi ped oja u pana nostru e tutti i juorna
*N.C. danne (dare + ne = Italian dacci "give us") vs. dùnandi (dunari + ndi) *the use of nni (ndi) is customary use of Sicilian, in contrast to Italian ci 'us' *while both N.C. and S.C. use the forms nne/ndi here, the verb forms of dare/dunari are totally different *N.C. i juorni vs. S.C. i juorna (in Sicilian many masculine plural verbs end with a, lu libbru, li libbra) *typical of Latin neuter declensions, something you don't find in Italian or Neapolitan/N. Calabrian
perdunacce i rebita nuorri ------------------- e' pardùnandi i debiti
*as in my previous point, I question the fluctuating uses of cce/ndi for 'us' *prior, there is danne/dùnandi, but now here perdunacce/pardùnandi *this fluctuating use shows that N.C. is on the edge linguistically *or the on-line transcriber to this prayer made a mistake in the usage *regardless, again, this shows the huge differencs, between Northern and Southern Calabrese
cumu nue perdunammu i rebituri nuorri ------------------- comu nù nc'i perdunamu ad i debituri nostri
Un ce mannare ntra tentazione ------------------- On nci dassara nt'a tentazioni
ma liberacce e ru male ------------------- ma liberandi d'o mala
*again, here N.C. uses the Italian/Neapolitan form "liberacce" while S.C. uses the Sicilian form of "liberandi"
In closing, it is very clear to see that there are several differences between the northern and southern Calabrese dialects, differences so large that all published linguists combines the two different dialects into either the Neapolitan or Sicilian language groups. To say that there would be a single Calabrian language because of cultural similarities would be like saying New England should have their own separate language as well as southern Californian, as the histories, ethnicities, and cultural characteristics are totally different in those two regions. And comparing Catalan and Spanish is the same as comparing French and Spanish, they are all different languages regardless of culture! It is the historical development of the language, the philology, the evolution, the syntax, the grammar, the lexicon, and so forth. It is like comparing apples and oranges when one tries to analyze Spanish/Catalan, as being in the same linguistic position as Calabrese/Italian. Again, I have no problems with the Calabrese dialects, but they are what they are. One cannot dispute the fact that they share enough different grammatical and vocabular characteristics that they do not constitute a single language, but rather two different dialects of the same region. I urge you to investigate these classifications, either via Ethnologue, in printed material, or through the weblinks I have posted below. Linguistics is a science, and the dialectologists in Italy have analyzed and studied these issues for well over a century, and the consistent conclusion is that the 'southern' Calabrian dialect is part of the Sicilian/Extreme Southern language group, while the 'northern' Calabrian dialect is part of the Neapolitan/Intermediate Southern language group. While you raised an excellent point based on a cultural aspect, one has to accept these findings based on the scientific research. Calabria has always been bifurcated north-south not only in terms of language, but also history, hence the south is an extension of Sicily, and the north an extension of Naples. Even culturally-historically, Calabria can be divided, and this strenghtens the idea that as a result of different invaders and influences, the dialects are so divergent, and classified into separate language groups. -- VingenzoTM 19:11, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
---The point of the differentiating Neapolitan from Calabrese is to demonstrate that although linguistically similar, both languages have cultural and literary differences. This article should not be based solely on Philological and Linguistic similarities, but rather a distinction of particulars, that is what makes them different. Would one classify Spanish and Catalan as the same? My answer would be no, and I believe the same classification distinction should be applied here.
sign posts like this --->-- espo111 23:08, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC) (second from last button ^^^)
To the site administrator,
I disagree with the references toward Calabrese being considered a distinct language. As a student of Romance Philology and Linguistics, there is no significant proof that Calabrese is a unified language. One only has to look at the examples provided on this page that southern Calabrese (resembling Sicilian) is far different than northern Calabrese (closer to Neapolitan).
Instead, Calabria is a region in southern Italy, yes, but it does not necessarily equate being a language as well. The historical information shows that much of southern Calabria was influenced in the same ways as Sicily, while northern Calabria has more in common with greater Naples. Calabria was part of the Two Sicilies, with Sicily (the island), and greater Naples the bifurcated hubs of the former kingdom.
Linguistically speaking, the region of Calabria can be divided north to south in terms of its various dialects. Even the northernmost province of Cosenza is divided between Sicilian and Neapolitan. The other four southern provinces all contribute to the Sicilian dialect group. It is no surprise, that the southern Calabrian dialects are virtually identical to the Messinese dialect of Sicily, and the Salentine dialect in peninsular Puglia. The northern Calabrian dialect is very similar to those of Lucano, Campania, and greater Naples.
For these reasons, the dialects of the region of Calabria cannot be grouped together as contributors to a single, consistent language. Instead, southern dialects make up the language of what some call "Extreme Meredional" (or simply "Sicilian"), while the northern dialects make up the language of what some call "Intermediate Meredional" (or simply "Neapolitan"). Again, these reasons are geographical, historical, and aboveall, linguistic.
If one visits Ethnologue, they will at times see a bifurcated grouping of "Neapolitan-Calabrian" but this is not exactly correct. This is done because northern Calabrian is very similar to (and joins) the many dialects of the Neapolitan group, BUT some argue that Calabrian should retain its own identity, at least in name sake. Unfortunately, linguistics is a science, and Calabria is a region with very different dialects. One cannot simply speak of a "Calabrian" language when the region's dialects are so different. Again, region does not always equal dialect.
I leave you with the following links on the various languages of Italy, including maps and the official Ethnologue linguistic classifications:
http://www.italica.rai.it/principali/lingua/bruni/mappe/mappe/f_dialetti.htm Interactive map of Italy with the linguistic classifications, researched in the 1920s and most recently revisited in 1977 with the publication of the "Carta dei dialetti." See here that southern Calabrian is classified in the group of extreme southern dialects, referred to as 'Sicilian', while northern Calabrese is classified in the intermediate southern group of dialects, referred to as 'Neapolitan.'
http://www.calabriadna.com Compare the above map of linguistic/dialectal boundaries to that of the provinces of Calabria.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=nap Neapolitan-Calabrese group of dialects - which again is not accurate. There is no hybrid Calabrese dialect, instead the 'region' of Calabria is made up of several 'dialects' which pertain to two different language groups, "Neapolitan" and "Sicilian."
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=scn The Sicilian group of dialects. Pay attention that this group is sometimes called "Sicilian-Calabrese" but this, like the "Neapolitan-Calabrese" category is inaccurate. Unfortunately, the region of Calabria is geographically between two larger linguistic groups, and because the Calabrese dialects are so divergent from each other, there is no universial Calabrese language, and therefore it is bifurcated into the other two larger groups of Sicilian and Neapolitan. Even in the peninsular portion of the region of Puglia, that dialect "Salentine" is also part of the Sicilian group, while northern Pugliese is considered a dialect of Italian, according to Ethnologue. But linguistically speaking, this is also incorrect, as you saw with the first weblink (map) above. The reasons for considering northern Pugliese as Italian instead of Neapolitan are of political reasons, and ignorance.
http://www.linguasiciliana.org/articuli_file/puglisi.HTM Finally, here is an essay on the Italian 'languages' or 'dialects.' This essay was written by a Calabrese linguist who regularly participates in a Sicilian language organization. Written in Sicilian, this Calabrese discusses how and why the languages of Italy are classified as such, and also includes much information on his home region of Calabria and why for many different reasons is divided into two different linguistic classifications, none of which are centered around the region of Calabria. He also writes of the different Pugliese dialects, the southern being part of Sicilian, and the northern being part of the Neapolitan group, and not the Italian group as erroneously printed in Ethnologue.
I have no qualms against the people or region of Calabria. Its various dialects are enchanting and bold, but as a researcher, I cannot help but argue against the classification of Calabrese as a single Romance language. All of the evidence points against this idea. I hope that I may have enlightened some of you, and cleared up any previous misconceptions about this topic. I would ask that the administrators remove any information pertaining to a "Calabrian" language. Rather to reiterate, northern Calabrese is a Neapolitan dialect, while southern Calabrese is a Sicilian dialect. Also, the example of the "Lord's Prayer" in southern Calabro should either be removed, or highlighted only for comparison purposes, as the Ethnologue organization clearly states that this dialect is part of the Sicilian linguistic group.
I Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
I may be reached at VingenzoTM@yahoo.com for further questions
This is 16 years later, so maybe it’s for others to read an answer, but the problem is that, as I’m sure you appreciate as a student of linguistics, there is no universal standard for the boundary between language and dialect - hell, all of these are regarded as dialects of Italian by many people. And beyond a certain point this can be an impossible problem where dialect continua exist.
Wikipedia has to be a secondary source and can’t include original research and argumentation. If you have a source that classifies Calabrian as a separate language in a consistent framework, then feel free to include that as another convention. Wikipedia won’t adjudicate either of these being right or wrong, because it’s not consensus and not black and white well-defined.
Emilio-Romagnol is another major example of this: there are some massive differences between dialects within either of these, some very unique within Romance, and Emilian and Romagnol in turn fall on either side of major isoglosses down to the level of pronouns.
Right now the usual standard Wikipedia applies where some choice must be made for logistical/format reasons is based on Ethnologue, though this isn’t cut and dry or limited to it and multiple widespread reasonable conventions should be mentioned. Harsimaja ( talk) 23:47, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
The number of speakers cited in the article is for the Napoletano-Calabrese group as a whole. What is the number of speakers for straight up Neapolitan? There are around 1,100,000 inhabitants of the city proper with another million in the immediately girding communities (2001 census). In terms of number of speakers, at what point does the dialectical continuum flow so far out as to lose its Neapolitan-ness as such? E. abu Filumena
So, I can see why the Latin might be illustrative, but the untransliterated Greek? Admittedly, Naples was a Greek-speaking city up to the 800's (or so) but... I also changed the headings back from the Latin(?), that seemed like a particularly peculiar choice. There is also no need to wikify things multiple times (those terms had been linked earlier in the page). E. abu Filumena 06:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Since most discussions here involve the big differences between the regional languages of southern Italy (and that one cannot speak of "one" Calabrian variant), it seems useful to include the southern Calabrian variant of the Lord's Prayer too. Thus I've readded this text (half a year ago someone removed it for no apparent reason).
Moreover, since the Greek version does not add extra information (and might just confuse), I've removed it. If anyone can give me clear reason, it would be OK to readd it.
-- JorisvS 16:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
For comparison, check out la:lingua neapolitana. I'm not hell bent on the readdition, but I think with a quick sentence or two in the main page about the historical significance, and about how since Naples was definitely a greek colony and naturally its language reflects such, it would be useful to the article. About the comment above by E. abu Filumena, I don't think the lack of transliteration is egregious. To whom it is legible it will be appreciated, to whom it isn't it may be inspiratory.
Maybe, I can read the Greek alphabet, that is not my problem. First of all not all the text showed up correctly on my browser (weird, since it shows Chinese, Japanse, Hindi, a.s.f.). Secondly what did show up correctly wasn't inspiratory, since I couldn't see any connection with the Neapolitan words. But if you want to readd it, I won't stop you, but please make it appear nicely on the Internet browser (with the spiritus asper and other accents showing up, like I show below). Moreover if you do, it might be good idea to split the table into two halves, so its width won't be too large (by placing the last three columns under the first three).
Note: the sentence on
Ancient Greek DOES show up correctly (here it no longer does):
Ὃτι μὲν ὑμεῖς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, πεπόνθατε ὑπὸ τῶν ἐμῶν κατηγόρων, οὐκ οἶδα: ἐγὼ δ' οὖν καὶ αὐτὸς ὑπ' αὐτῶν ὀλίγου ἐμαυτοῦ ἐπελαθόμην, οὕτω πιθανῶς ἔλεγον. καίτοι ἀληθές γε ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οὐδὲν εἰρήκασιν.
I notice now, that in pasting this here, it no longer shows up correctly, with a modification it shows up correctly again:
Ὃτι μὲν ὑμεῖς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, πεπόνθατε ὑπὸ τῶν ἐμῶν κατηγόρων, οὐκ οἶδα: ἐγὼ δ' οὖν καὶ αὐτὸς ὑπ' αὐτῶν ὀλίγου ἐμαυτοῦ ἐπελαθόμην, οὕτω πιθανῶς ἔλεγον. καίτοι ἀληθές γε ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οὐδὲν εἰρήκασιν.
--
JorisvS
14:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
See Ethnologue entry for nap for details [1].
Excuse me, I'm Italian, and the concept of Napoletano provided here just makes me laugh. I really don't see any reason for this confusion between Neapolitan and the group of dialects of southern Italy (meridionale interno or intermedio) among which Neapolitan is just the major one.
Differences are so plain to us Italians, that our
Wikipedia says: «It is spoken in Campania, specifically in the city of Naples, and in general influences southern dialects, especially in Apulia, Basilicata and Southern Latium».
No mention of central dialects, of course. I'm from Ascoli Province and know for sure how distant my dialect and Neapolitan are. There are so many differences that, when I went to Apulia, my accent was mistaken for
Romanesco. --
Llayumri
07:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The article says: vedé (to see)
What tense is it? Present indicative 3rd singular? Why the accent, then? (see conjugation at Verbix)
Please be gentle, i'm not a big expert in Italian. Thanks in advance for your answer. -- Amir E. Aharoni 11:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Is this really rhotacism or flapping? Is the sound /r/ (the "Italian" "r") or /ɾ/ (the pronunciation of intervocalic "d" and "t" in some American accents that makes "metal" and "medal" homophones)? I am not at all familiar with Neapolitan, but it sounds like this might be flapping rather than true rhotacism. — Paul G 12:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Ethnologue, this article assumes the term applies to the dialects of southern Italy. It therefore overlaps the recently created Southern Italian article, which assumes the term Neapolitan (Napoletano) applies to just Naples. Personally, I prefer the "southern Italian" angle, which is closer to actual linguistics, but such a merger should be discussed. Dionix ( talk) 02:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
According to Unesco , Neapolitan is a language ( http://www.napoli.com/viewarticolo.php?articolo=34942) , why this article is called "Neapolitan dialect" ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanno29 ( talk • contribs) 16:56, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Never mind. The distinction was not stable after several years, so I merged. — kwami ( talk) 07:17, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
No, even by Unesco, the Napolitan variety is recognized as Southern Italian. Not everything that appears on their atlas is a separate language. Dialects are also present in that webpage. Some Greek dialects appear along with other languages (unrelated to Greek) spoken in Greece, for example. Anyway, check how it's recognized as a southern dialect: http://www.unesco.org/languages-atlas/en/atlasmap/language-id-1022.html
The article should be renamed "Napolitan dialect".
124.33.177.82 ( talk) 07:55, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
I am not an expert... but I believe some of the confusion comes from the double meaning of the word “dialetto” in Italian... It could mean either “una varietà di una lingua” (a variety of a [single] language) or “[una] lingua contrapposta a quella nazionale” (a language, as opposed to the national language - referring to a language spoken in the country other than the official one). From a linguistic and practical standpoint, Neapolitan probably wouldn’t be a dialect in the first sense, since someone who speaks only standard Italian can’t simply jump into a conversation in Neapolitan the way an American can jump into a conversation between Australians - it is only partially mutually intelligible with Italian, much like another Romance language not spoken in Italy. Case in point: popular Neapolitan songs often include a “traduzione dal napoletano” into standard Italian on genius.com. That wouldn’t be necessary for a mere dialect (in the first sense)
But it can definitely be “un dialetto” as per the second definition, and that can also include languages like Piedmontese that aren’t even Italo-Dalmatian.
To make matters more complicated... there is a dialect of standard Italian influenced by the Neapolitan language (the Italian Wikipedia has a separate page for it), and in everyday speech, the term “dialetto napoletano” could refer to both the Neapolitan language and to regional standard Italian with a Neapolitan accent.
And on top of that... there are several dialects of Neapolitan itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flexthink ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
I changed the rating of the " Neapolitan language" from C to B, because I find that the article
However, JorisvS reverted the rating to C, explaining "Not really". Opinions? - The Gnome ( talk) 10:19, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Both "Napulitano" and "(’o n)napulitano" are currently unsourced, but at least the latter is consistent with both the explanation in this article and as used at the Neapolitan wiki. The stable version is "nnapulitano", not "Napulitano". @ Alessandro57:, do you have a source for your change? -- JorisvS ( talk) 10:54, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Ferdinado Russo: 'O luciano d' 'o Rre. Page 34. 14th verse. Hope it helps! ;) -- C.R. ( talk) 22:24, 10 December 2014 (UTC)E parlava accussì: napulitano!
I was meaning standardized and scientific form. Anyway, I would challenge the double-n, but unfortunately I need more time digging in the texts, and up to date I can tell you I have no reference. However, the native-language page is not a valid reference, and even more: If you check the history, you will see that it was created and reviewed as 'o napulitano by native speakers, and then changed to 'o nnapulitano by a literated non-native user. Proposal: Since it does not seem even phonetically accurate, and leaving it like this would lead you to drag a (quotation needed) for a long time... while we lost coherence between language articles... I would move it to as a "grammar" curiosity, and leave "napulitano" on the autonym.-- C.R. ( talk) 12:43, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
It has always fascinated me how the French language in particular has been partly absorbed into Neapolitan. Some words are the same, like "buatta" adpted from French "boîte" (box, scatola in Italian). It would be really awesome to find some serious references to this influence, as well as to the Spanish one. Vincenza1950 ( talk) 15:45, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
This article mixes the languoid "Neapolitan" as given in Ethnologue with the languoid "Neapolitan" as described in other linguistic sources, i.e. the languoid spoken in Neaples, or Neapolitan proper ("proper" is used here informally, I know no source making the distinction with "proper" and I know no academic publication using "Neapolitan" for the languoid given in Ethnologue). Please, check the literature: the entire voice is written based on the classification assumptions of Ethnologue, thus breaking the Neutral Point of View policy. I'm not against Ethnologue in principle, I'm just saying that it seems the other academic literature does not use the glossonym the same way as Ethnologue does. This should be mirrored in the article. (P.S. "languoid" and "glossonym" are not my inventions, see Language#Languoid for definitions and references). See the following:
-- SynConlanger ( talk) 11:05, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
--More references are already on the text, you can check them easily... and I propose to remove the "lack of references" tag.-- C.R. ( talk) 12:56, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Language and religion: The Neapolitans speak a Romance language called Neapolitan-Calabreze, which is spoken in three major dialects and many regional varieties. The language is not intelligible to speakers of standard Italian; many of its speakers do not speak the Italian national language, particularly in rural areas. The use of the language remains vigorous, and attempts are under way to standardize its usage and teaching. There is a large amount of literature, written mostly in the Neapolitan dialect. The dialects associated with Neapolitan in the northern regions differ considerably from the Calabreze dialects spoken in Calabria, Basilicata, and Puglia. The other regional dialects are Aquilano, Abruzzese, Pugliese and *Molisano, spoken in the eastern parts of the peninsula. An estimated half the population of the region uses one of local dialects as their fist language.
--James Minahan: Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: L-R., pp.1348, 2002
This reference is previous to Ethnologue, so now you have two references... If you don't like the title of the book it's your problem, the definition of the languoid is quite precise...-- C.R. ( talk) 13:07, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be "gemination"? -- Evertype· ✆ 13:36, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
The Italic languages are these: -GALLO-ITALIAN: Venetian, Romagnolo, Emilian, Lombard, Piedmontese, Ligurian, Friulian -MEDIAN-ITALIAN: course, standard italian, Roman dialect, Umbrian, Tuscan -SOUTH-ITALIAN: Neapolitan, Apulian, Lucanian and Abruzzese -EXTREME SOUTH ITALIAN: sicilian, Calabrian, Salentine -SARDIANIAN In Italy these are the linguistic groups, the Neapolitan is not spoken in Puglia, Abruzzo and Basilicata, only in the Campania region. I'm Apulian and I do not speak Neapolitan, I speak Apulian. They are two distinct languages but belonging to the same family.
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I have never before come across the word sect used as a technical term of linguistics. Does anyone have better information than I have on this matter? It did cross my mind that perhaps the editor who added this word actually meant set. If so, would not group be better? LynwoodF ( talk) 15:22, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Neapolitan language (). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Steel1943 ( talk) 17:51, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
The map is quite nice, but in its current location it’s difficult to compare the the detailed list of dialects/languages. Could we move it next to them and float it to the side? babbage ( talk) 21:04, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
After 5 years I brought this up, this article still relies entirely on the classification by SIL/Ethnologue. The lead section now mentions that in some other contexts Neapolitan refers to the languoid spoken in Naples and surroundings and not to the whole branch, but a reference is not provided (I will take care of adding these, since there are many). Can someone with a background in (Romance) linguistics help? -- SynConlanger ( talk) 23:14, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
I am no linguist. However, in this discussion about the article, please take into consideration
WP:COMMONNAME for the article title (so for example Neapolitan language should be a much better choice than Upper Southern Italian), and
WP:NOTJARGON and
WP:TECHNICAL regarding the content (especially of the lead). For example I disagree with "Neapolitan is the name assigned by SIL/Ethnologue and UNESCO to the Romance varieties spoken in the area of ..."
: Neapolitan language is not defined as "a name", it's "a language" (or "a dialect" I don't want to enter the discussion), and that's the definition that should stay in the lead. --
Ritchie92 (
talk)
11:09, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
( ←) I agree that splitting and cleaning is probably the best action. -- SynConlanger ( talk) 12:54, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
P.S. So, after some thought, I think this article should be renamed to "Upper Southern Italian languages" and we should create another article "Neapolitan language" which refers to the languoid spoken in Naples and Campania (Glottocode: napo1241, no ISO 639-3 code). I explain why.
Given that it looks like the academic references agree on "Upper Southern" I think this should be part of the name of this article. I think "Upper Southern Italian languages" fits well with other articles of the sort. In this article we can then give all the info about classification and group vs unitary language, etc. I don't think having separate articles for 1-4 would follow from the principles of Wikipedia. -- SynConlanger ( talk) 22:29, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
( ←) The statement that the common name in the English-speaking world for the languoid [nap] is "Neapolitan language" is simply false. The comparison with Brexit is unfortunate: the general public talks about Brexit, but not about the languoid [nap]. So COMMONNAME here does not apply. Treccani is an encyclopaedia, so it is a tertiary source, and should not be used as a gold standard. [nap] descends from Latin, directly or indirectly doesn't make any sense whatsoever, it just does discend from Latin (meaning that Latin is the ascestor language of Neapolitan). We now have this article "Neapolitan language". What I am proposing to do is to have instead an article called "Upper Southern Italian languages" for [nap]/[neap1235]/Upper Southern Italian dialects/languages and an article called "Neapolitan language" for [napo1241]. In the former we can detail all the issues with classification and unitary language vs. group. I am opposed to having this article, and article called "Neapolitan dialect" and an article called "Upper Southern Italian languages" for the reasons I have given above. Compare with Gallo-Italic languages, which---since an ISO code for Gallo-Italic does not exist---did not end up being called Milanese language or the like. I refuse to accept the statement that English-speaking people talk about Neapolitan (if they ever do) to mean the things spoken in Campania, Abruzzi, Puglia, etc etc. I will send an email to SIL/Ethnologue now or later to ask what their source is for "Neapolitan/Napoletano-Calabrese". Also, why is this article called Neapolitan when on Ethnologue is actually called Napoletano-Calabrese? -- SynConlanger ( talk) 17:53, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
No Italian person would ever dream to say that for example in Chieti or Bari they speak "dialetto napoletano". That would be preposterous.and I am also not saying this. I am saying that an article named "Neapolitan language" should exist on WP with this title, because it's relevant enough (the language spoken in Naples and its area) to have poetry, novels and plays written in it, and millions of native speakers. Then, I am not against the creation of another article about the group of southern dialects which would include (I guess) Neapolitan as one example. -- Ritchie92 ( talk) 19:52, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
( ←) This is Wikipedia in English so should give precedence to English, not Italian. But that's besides the point now. I don't see why we should have two articles (this one and "Middle Southern Italian dialects") that treat more or less the same languoid [nap/neap1235]. I am opposed to having three articles in total: Neapolitan language, Middle Southern Italian dialects, and Neapolitan dialect. I think two are sufficient. Whatever we want to call those two is a different matter. -- SynConlanger ( talk) 20:32, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
this article is not about "dialetto napoletano" is about what academic references refer to as "Upper Southern Italian dialects"but now they say that
the grammar described in this article is that specific of the "parlata di Napoli e Campania" and not of for example "dialetto barese". Just to boost the hopes to end this discussion soon, can we have a clear statement about (a) moving this article to "upper southern", or (b) creating a new "upper southern" article with parts taken from this article (that would then be removed from here)? -- Ritchie92 ( talk) 10:12, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
P.S. The confusion also stems from the fact that this article is confused. The sections Alphabet and pronunciation and Grammar of this article clearly describe the grammar of the parlata of Naples/Campania, which is different from the grammar for example of Barese. To achieve a status with two articles as I propose (one for the higher-level languoid [nap/neap1245] and one for the parlata di Napoli, plus others about other parlate if necessary) we can actually do any combination of split and renaming, so it makes it difficult to explain. What we should agree on is the end product, rather than how to get there. And the end product is one article about [nap/neap1245] and one about the parlata di Napoli with info on alphabet and grammar. -- SynConlanger ( talk) 12:53, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
I changed the glottoname in the InfoBox. It assigned the glossonym "Neapolitan" to Glottocode [neap1235], but the glossonym assigned to that code on Glottolog is "Continental Southern Italian" and not "Neapolitan". If you search "Neapolitan" on Glottolog using the search field, what you get is "No matching languoids found for name part "neapolitan"". The glossonym "Napoletano" is assigned to the code [napo1241] and is a sub-languoid of the languoid "Central Southern Italian [neap1235]". -- SynConlanger ( talk) 10:20, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
This article mixes up three discrete languoids: 1) the very Neapolitan language, which was co-official (besides Latin) within the Kingdom of Naples in 1442–1501, and was then largely spoken in that Kingdom until Italian unification; 2) the intermediate southern Italian dialects (the map actually refers to them), which stem straightforwardly from Latin and not from the Neapolitan language; 3) the Neapolitan dialect currently spoken within the metropolitan city of Naples. I would therefore propose splitting the current article into three ones, similarly to what Italian Wikipedia does ( it:Lingua napoletana, it:Dialetti italiani meridionali, it:Dialetto napoletano).-- 3knolls ( talk) 06:25, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Notwithstanding the time and effort that SynConlanger went to above in explaining and documenting the facts, the article treats readers to first this (with completely inappropriate references):
then this (with no references):
Reality is the opposite: the Romance languages spoken across much of southern Italy go by various names, but no respectable linguist would use Neapolitan/napoletano as a serious cover term for that vast variety; linguists refer to the language of Naples as Neapolitan/napoletano. While once upon a time a very broad unscientific, impressionistic and inaccurate usage of napoletano could be found even in the works of some well-meaning linguists, that time is gone. That that sort of usage remains in the lexicon of some naive native speakers of Italian should be reported here (and the unfortunate UNESCO usage explained), but should not be presented as standard usage, no more than dolphin should be left officially labeled fish. Barefoot through the chollas ( talk) 16:23, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
I have seen that people in my zone, bordering with Campania, acknowledge their dialect as belonging to the Neapolitan’s family, even without having linguistic notions. It may not be the same in a region like Apulia though. The term Parthenopean is commonly used to reference what relates to the city of Naples, as opposed to the Kingdom of Naples as a whole. We could therefore distinguish the Neapolitan language page from the Parthenopean dialect one. Zagreides ( talk) 19:36, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
So I was reading Molise's page in English, and the page gives the pronunciation for the region's name in... Neapolitan. I was like, what the? I click on Neapolitan, and I find out... That this page is the stuff of nightmares. Not even a single soul in the scientific literature calls Southern Italo-Romance 'Neapolitan'. No. one. Where does this definition even come from? Neapolitan is just one of the Southern Italo-Romance languages. This page's quality is really below zero - and I am afraid that my students will learn wrong things from it. Wikipedia is truly influential - please do a better job. Ophoryce ( talk) 11:23, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
This discussion has been repeated over and over for months. Why doesn't someone start a move request? So this matter will finally be sorted out. Yakme ( talk) 12:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Currently, the article claims the they become lenis voiced after a nasal and remain fortis voiceless everywhere else. I don't know how representative the pronunciation of popular singers is, but my impression is that they can have both pronunciations in all positions. Perhaps these stops are lenis with variable voicing? 89.64.69.62 ( talk) 22:40, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. However, while support did not emerge for moving the existing article to the proposed title, there does appear to be a rough consensus that a content split would be helpful for distinguishing the language of the immediate Naples area from the broader category of Southern Italian languages and dialects. ( non-admin closure) ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 16:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Neapolitan language → Southern Italian languages – By looking at this talk page (see [3], [4], [5], [6]), it seems that it could be helpful if we let the community discuss in an orderly way about whether to move the content of this article (or significant parts of it) to " Southern Italian languages" (or " Southern Italian dialects", please state and motivate your preference). The main issue is that currently this article appears to be about an overlap of two or more languoids, which makes a WP:PRECISE title hard to assess. Therefore, a content split could be performed, e.g. keeping Neapolitan language or Neapolitan dialect as the article containing what is strictly related to the language spoken in the area of Naples and Campania. Please motivate your statements and keep in mind WP:NPOV, WP:OR and WP:V. Yakme ( talk) 11:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Steel1943 ( talk) 21:06, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
As has been said quite a few times already, calling all dialetti alto-meridionali "Neapolitan language" is highly problematic from a linguistic perspective. The confusion stems from the fact that the ISO-639-3 code for this language continuum / group of dialects is "nap" and Glottocode labels it "Neapolitan" for lack of a better word. This goes against the consensus in Romance linguistics, that call these dialetti (local lects that are not local dialects of Italian, as per the Italian sociolinguistic definition) . Napoletano/napulitano/Neapolitan is only the dialetto of the city of Naples. Sources:
I know this has been said a million times, but the news is that even UNESCO has now stopped calling ISO-693-3 "Neapolitan" and calls it "Continental Southern Italian": https://en.wal.unesco.org/languages/continental-southern-italian.
I think this is enough to reopen the move discussion? We could follow UNESCO nomenclature and invert the redirect from Continental Southern Italian. CRYptex talk 18:36, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
I tend to be in favor with Ergo Sum's reasoning. One addition: should we keep using the template of "[...] language" for the title? In that case the proposals would be Continental Southern Italian language or Southern Italo-Romance language. Yakme ( talk) 12:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
1) Neapolitan is not Italo-Dalmatian. For the love of God. 2) Neapolitan is spoken in Naples. Elsewehere in Campania other closely related languages are spoken 3) Neapolitan is not spoken in Abruzzo, Apulia, Marche, Calabria, etc. The author is confusing Southern Italo-romance with Neapolitan. Just plain wrong! 4) The section on articles was contradictory, and it showed articles with the lateral. It has been amended. Please check the scientific literature before writing, or these pages become a joke. Ophoryce ( talk) 16:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
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Classification of central italy dialects as "Neapolitan"
I don't think the phrase:
as well as throughout most of southern Italy including the Gaeta and Sora districts of southern Lazio, the southern part of Ascoli province in Marche, most of Abruzzo, Molise, Basilicata, northern Calabria, and northern and central Apulia.
is completely correct.
I'm not a linguist, but i'm italian, and i live in central Italy; some parts of above categorisation seem to me not completely correct.
In Gaeta and Sora, although spoken language being different from "Napoli's neapolitan", i can agree that "Neapolitan" is an enough good classification. I guess the same holds, at least to some extent, looking at Molise and Basilicata. Situation of Calabria is well explained below so i won't spend more words upon.
What i really do not understand is classifying as "Neapolitan" the italian dialects spoken in Apulia, Abruzzo and most of all Marche. Believe me, dialect of Marche has very little in common with Neapolitan... i guess also that most people from that region would "jump on their chairs" reading such a thing. The same holds about Abruzzo, where we should distinguish among at least 3 different families of dialects - see for reference http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IT , looking at "Italian" section. About Apulia, i honestly don't know whether to classify it as a Neapolitan derivative or a dialect of his own, but i think this deserves at least some serious discussion.
LINGUISTIC DEMARCATIONS
which forum? if it is the yahoo one run by carmine then yes, if not then no. so then how do we classify these languages? do we make a separate classification for northern calabrese? I am not a linguist so i don't know. The problem is there is no official language standard. there are differences between napulitano and n. calbrese too, just as there are differences in salerno napulitano, amalfi napulitano.....
you make good points and comparisons though. -- espo111 05:48, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi Frank,
Are you the same Frank I've spoken to in the 'O Nnapolitano forum? Ciao cumpà! The problem with Calabria is that it is a region. The dialects of Calabria are so different from each other (in a direction from north to south) that you cannot group all of the dialects of Calabria as a single language. Cultural differences cannot be used to group languages, because you can look at Canada and the United States, as an example. For the most part, both countries speak the English language, although both countries are very different culturally, and even widening this idea, add in the U.K., Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand. Yes, subtle differences exist between these countries, but they are for the most part based on accents, or idiomatic. Even the cultural differences among the English speaking nations do not result in each country having a 'different' language.
Comparing Spanish and Catalan can be another example of cultural differences. However, the two languages are different because of historical reasons, and above all else, they are separated because of the lexicon, syntax, vocabulary, sentence structure, and so many other reasons.
Which leads me to my last argument about the Calabrian dialects. Again, clearly, if you look at the Sicilian or Neapolitan language groups, you can take a look at the lexicon, syntax, look at the personal pronouns, the adverbs, the prepositions, the intonation, and notice the stark contrasts. Then take the Calabrian dialects, and notice they cannot be grouped together as one. The southern ones belong to the Sicilian group, the northern ones belong to the Neapolitan group. These are not ideas of fantasy, I have provided many documents to support this already widely held theory on the linguistic classifications of Italo-Romance.
But in closing, just by analyzing the information on this main page of the Neapolitan language, you will see how the Calabrian dialects are not related to each other, and cannot be grouped linguistically or even culturally. Like Sicily, Southern Calabria has had a far different history than northern Calabria or Naples, especially when it comes to influence by the Arab and Middle Eastern peoples.
N.C. Northern Calabrian (Neapolitan) ------------------- S.C. Southern Calabrian (Sicilian)
Patre nuorru chi sta ntru cielu ------------------- Tata nostru chi' sini nt'o celu,
*contrast N.C. patre with S.C. tata (Sicilianesque word) *notice the grammatical difference N.C. sta (stare) versus S.C> sini (essere, sei, Italian) *notice the pure use of S.C. celu (as one sees in Sicilian, from celum) versus the dipthongized form of N.C. cielu
chi sia santificatu u nume tuoio ------------------- ù si tena pe' santu u noma toi
*now look at the possessive adjectives... N.C. tuoio (with the dipthong like Italian tuo) *S.C. toi, no dipthong like the standard Sicilian vowel system
venisse u riegnu tuoio ------------------- ù vena u rregnu toi,
*again, the dipthongization - N.C. riegnu versus S.C. rregnu (Latin regnum), also tuoio/toi
se facisse a vuluntà tuoia ------------------- ù si facia a voluntà
sia ntru cielu ca nterra. ------------------- com'esta nt'o celu, u stessa sup'a terra.
Ranne oje u pane nuorro e tutti i juorni ------------------- Dùnandi ped oja u pana nostru e tutti i juorna
*N.C. danne (dare + ne = Italian dacci "give us") vs. dùnandi (dunari + ndi) *the use of nni (ndi) is customary use of Sicilian, in contrast to Italian ci 'us' *while both N.C. and S.C. use the forms nne/ndi here, the verb forms of dare/dunari are totally different *N.C. i juorni vs. S.C. i juorna (in Sicilian many masculine plural verbs end with a, lu libbru, li libbra) *typical of Latin neuter declensions, something you don't find in Italian or Neapolitan/N. Calabrian
perdunacce i rebita nuorri ------------------- e' pardùnandi i debiti
*as in my previous point, I question the fluctuating uses of cce/ndi for 'us' *prior, there is danne/dùnandi, but now here perdunacce/pardùnandi *this fluctuating use shows that N.C. is on the edge linguistically *or the on-line transcriber to this prayer made a mistake in the usage *regardless, again, this shows the huge differencs, between Northern and Southern Calabrese
cumu nue perdunammu i rebituri nuorri ------------------- comu nù nc'i perdunamu ad i debituri nostri
Un ce mannare ntra tentazione ------------------- On nci dassara nt'a tentazioni
ma liberacce e ru male ------------------- ma liberandi d'o mala
*again, here N.C. uses the Italian/Neapolitan form "liberacce" while S.C. uses the Sicilian form of "liberandi"
In closing, it is very clear to see that there are several differences between the northern and southern Calabrese dialects, differences so large that all published linguists combines the two different dialects into either the Neapolitan or Sicilian language groups. To say that there would be a single Calabrian language because of cultural similarities would be like saying New England should have their own separate language as well as southern Californian, as the histories, ethnicities, and cultural characteristics are totally different in those two regions. And comparing Catalan and Spanish is the same as comparing French and Spanish, they are all different languages regardless of culture! It is the historical development of the language, the philology, the evolution, the syntax, the grammar, the lexicon, and so forth. It is like comparing apples and oranges when one tries to analyze Spanish/Catalan, as being in the same linguistic position as Calabrese/Italian. Again, I have no problems with the Calabrese dialects, but they are what they are. One cannot dispute the fact that they share enough different grammatical and vocabular characteristics that they do not constitute a single language, but rather two different dialects of the same region. I urge you to investigate these classifications, either via Ethnologue, in printed material, or through the weblinks I have posted below. Linguistics is a science, and the dialectologists in Italy have analyzed and studied these issues for well over a century, and the consistent conclusion is that the 'southern' Calabrian dialect is part of the Sicilian/Extreme Southern language group, while the 'northern' Calabrian dialect is part of the Neapolitan/Intermediate Southern language group. While you raised an excellent point based on a cultural aspect, one has to accept these findings based on the scientific research. Calabria has always been bifurcated north-south not only in terms of language, but also history, hence the south is an extension of Sicily, and the north an extension of Naples. Even culturally-historically, Calabria can be divided, and this strenghtens the idea that as a result of different invaders and influences, the dialects are so divergent, and classified into separate language groups. -- VingenzoTM 19:11, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
---The point of the differentiating Neapolitan from Calabrese is to demonstrate that although linguistically similar, both languages have cultural and literary differences. This article should not be based solely on Philological and Linguistic similarities, but rather a distinction of particulars, that is what makes them different. Would one classify Spanish and Catalan as the same? My answer would be no, and I believe the same classification distinction should be applied here.
sign posts like this --->-- espo111 23:08, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC) (second from last button ^^^)
To the site administrator,
I disagree with the references toward Calabrese being considered a distinct language. As a student of Romance Philology and Linguistics, there is no significant proof that Calabrese is a unified language. One only has to look at the examples provided on this page that southern Calabrese (resembling Sicilian) is far different than northern Calabrese (closer to Neapolitan).
Instead, Calabria is a region in southern Italy, yes, but it does not necessarily equate being a language as well. The historical information shows that much of southern Calabria was influenced in the same ways as Sicily, while northern Calabria has more in common with greater Naples. Calabria was part of the Two Sicilies, with Sicily (the island), and greater Naples the bifurcated hubs of the former kingdom.
Linguistically speaking, the region of Calabria can be divided north to south in terms of its various dialects. Even the northernmost province of Cosenza is divided between Sicilian and Neapolitan. The other four southern provinces all contribute to the Sicilian dialect group. It is no surprise, that the southern Calabrian dialects are virtually identical to the Messinese dialect of Sicily, and the Salentine dialect in peninsular Puglia. The northern Calabrian dialect is very similar to those of Lucano, Campania, and greater Naples.
For these reasons, the dialects of the region of Calabria cannot be grouped together as contributors to a single, consistent language. Instead, southern dialects make up the language of what some call "Extreme Meredional" (or simply "Sicilian"), while the northern dialects make up the language of what some call "Intermediate Meredional" (or simply "Neapolitan"). Again, these reasons are geographical, historical, and aboveall, linguistic.
If one visits Ethnologue, they will at times see a bifurcated grouping of "Neapolitan-Calabrian" but this is not exactly correct. This is done because northern Calabrian is very similar to (and joins) the many dialects of the Neapolitan group, BUT some argue that Calabrian should retain its own identity, at least in name sake. Unfortunately, linguistics is a science, and Calabria is a region with very different dialects. One cannot simply speak of a "Calabrian" language when the region's dialects are so different. Again, region does not always equal dialect.
I leave you with the following links on the various languages of Italy, including maps and the official Ethnologue linguistic classifications:
http://www.italica.rai.it/principali/lingua/bruni/mappe/mappe/f_dialetti.htm Interactive map of Italy with the linguistic classifications, researched in the 1920s and most recently revisited in 1977 with the publication of the "Carta dei dialetti." See here that southern Calabrian is classified in the group of extreme southern dialects, referred to as 'Sicilian', while northern Calabrese is classified in the intermediate southern group of dialects, referred to as 'Neapolitan.'
http://www.calabriadna.com Compare the above map of linguistic/dialectal boundaries to that of the provinces of Calabria.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=nap Neapolitan-Calabrese group of dialects - which again is not accurate. There is no hybrid Calabrese dialect, instead the 'region' of Calabria is made up of several 'dialects' which pertain to two different language groups, "Neapolitan" and "Sicilian."
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=scn The Sicilian group of dialects. Pay attention that this group is sometimes called "Sicilian-Calabrese" but this, like the "Neapolitan-Calabrese" category is inaccurate. Unfortunately, the region of Calabria is geographically between two larger linguistic groups, and because the Calabrese dialects are so divergent from each other, there is no universial Calabrese language, and therefore it is bifurcated into the other two larger groups of Sicilian and Neapolitan. Even in the peninsular portion of the region of Puglia, that dialect "Salentine" is also part of the Sicilian group, while northern Pugliese is considered a dialect of Italian, according to Ethnologue. But linguistically speaking, this is also incorrect, as you saw with the first weblink (map) above. The reasons for considering northern Pugliese as Italian instead of Neapolitan are of political reasons, and ignorance.
http://www.linguasiciliana.org/articuli_file/puglisi.HTM Finally, here is an essay on the Italian 'languages' or 'dialects.' This essay was written by a Calabrese linguist who regularly participates in a Sicilian language organization. Written in Sicilian, this Calabrese discusses how and why the languages of Italy are classified as such, and also includes much information on his home region of Calabria and why for many different reasons is divided into two different linguistic classifications, none of which are centered around the region of Calabria. He also writes of the different Pugliese dialects, the southern being part of Sicilian, and the northern being part of the Neapolitan group, and not the Italian group as erroneously printed in Ethnologue.
I have no qualms against the people or region of Calabria. Its various dialects are enchanting and bold, but as a researcher, I cannot help but argue against the classification of Calabrese as a single Romance language. All of the evidence points against this idea. I hope that I may have enlightened some of you, and cleared up any previous misconceptions about this topic. I would ask that the administrators remove any information pertaining to a "Calabrian" language. Rather to reiterate, northern Calabrese is a Neapolitan dialect, while southern Calabrese is a Sicilian dialect. Also, the example of the "Lord's Prayer" in southern Calabro should either be removed, or highlighted only for comparison purposes, as the Ethnologue organization clearly states that this dialect is part of the Sicilian linguistic group.
I Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
I may be reached at VingenzoTM@yahoo.com for further questions
This is 16 years later, so maybe it’s for others to read an answer, but the problem is that, as I’m sure you appreciate as a student of linguistics, there is no universal standard for the boundary between language and dialect - hell, all of these are regarded as dialects of Italian by many people. And beyond a certain point this can be an impossible problem where dialect continua exist.
Wikipedia has to be a secondary source and can’t include original research and argumentation. If you have a source that classifies Calabrian as a separate language in a consistent framework, then feel free to include that as another convention. Wikipedia won’t adjudicate either of these being right or wrong, because it’s not consensus and not black and white well-defined.
Emilio-Romagnol is another major example of this: there are some massive differences between dialects within either of these, some very unique within Romance, and Emilian and Romagnol in turn fall on either side of major isoglosses down to the level of pronouns.
Right now the usual standard Wikipedia applies where some choice must be made for logistical/format reasons is based on Ethnologue, though this isn’t cut and dry or limited to it and multiple widespread reasonable conventions should be mentioned. Harsimaja ( talk) 23:47, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
The number of speakers cited in the article is for the Napoletano-Calabrese group as a whole. What is the number of speakers for straight up Neapolitan? There are around 1,100,000 inhabitants of the city proper with another million in the immediately girding communities (2001 census). In terms of number of speakers, at what point does the dialectical continuum flow so far out as to lose its Neapolitan-ness as such? E. abu Filumena
So, I can see why the Latin might be illustrative, but the untransliterated Greek? Admittedly, Naples was a Greek-speaking city up to the 800's (or so) but... I also changed the headings back from the Latin(?), that seemed like a particularly peculiar choice. There is also no need to wikify things multiple times (those terms had been linked earlier in the page). E. abu Filumena 06:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Since most discussions here involve the big differences between the regional languages of southern Italy (and that one cannot speak of "one" Calabrian variant), it seems useful to include the southern Calabrian variant of the Lord's Prayer too. Thus I've readded this text (half a year ago someone removed it for no apparent reason).
Moreover, since the Greek version does not add extra information (and might just confuse), I've removed it. If anyone can give me clear reason, it would be OK to readd it.
-- JorisvS 16:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
For comparison, check out la:lingua neapolitana. I'm not hell bent on the readdition, but I think with a quick sentence or two in the main page about the historical significance, and about how since Naples was definitely a greek colony and naturally its language reflects such, it would be useful to the article. About the comment above by E. abu Filumena, I don't think the lack of transliteration is egregious. To whom it is legible it will be appreciated, to whom it isn't it may be inspiratory.
Maybe, I can read the Greek alphabet, that is not my problem. First of all not all the text showed up correctly on my browser (weird, since it shows Chinese, Japanse, Hindi, a.s.f.). Secondly what did show up correctly wasn't inspiratory, since I couldn't see any connection with the Neapolitan words. But if you want to readd it, I won't stop you, but please make it appear nicely on the Internet browser (with the spiritus asper and other accents showing up, like I show below). Moreover if you do, it might be good idea to split the table into two halves, so its width won't be too large (by placing the last three columns under the first three).
Note: the sentence on
Ancient Greek DOES show up correctly (here it no longer does):
Ὃτι μὲν ὑμεῖς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, πεπόνθατε ὑπὸ τῶν ἐμῶν κατηγόρων, οὐκ οἶδα: ἐγὼ δ' οὖν καὶ αὐτὸς ὑπ' αὐτῶν ὀλίγου ἐμαυτοῦ ἐπελαθόμην, οὕτω πιθανῶς ἔλεγον. καίτοι ἀληθές γε ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οὐδὲν εἰρήκασιν.
I notice now, that in pasting this here, it no longer shows up correctly, with a modification it shows up correctly again:
Ὃτι μὲν ὑμεῖς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, πεπόνθατε ὑπὸ τῶν ἐμῶν κατηγόρων, οὐκ οἶδα: ἐγὼ δ' οὖν καὶ αὐτὸς ὑπ' αὐτῶν ὀλίγου ἐμαυτοῦ ἐπελαθόμην, οὕτω πιθανῶς ἔλεγον. καίτοι ἀληθές γε ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οὐδὲν εἰρήκασιν.
--
JorisvS
14:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
See Ethnologue entry for nap for details [1].
Excuse me, I'm Italian, and the concept of Napoletano provided here just makes me laugh. I really don't see any reason for this confusion between Neapolitan and the group of dialects of southern Italy (meridionale interno or intermedio) among which Neapolitan is just the major one.
Differences are so plain to us Italians, that our
Wikipedia says: «It is spoken in Campania, specifically in the city of Naples, and in general influences southern dialects, especially in Apulia, Basilicata and Southern Latium».
No mention of central dialects, of course. I'm from Ascoli Province and know for sure how distant my dialect and Neapolitan are. There are so many differences that, when I went to Apulia, my accent was mistaken for
Romanesco. --
Llayumri
07:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The article says: vedé (to see)
What tense is it? Present indicative 3rd singular? Why the accent, then? (see conjugation at Verbix)
Please be gentle, i'm not a big expert in Italian. Thanks in advance for your answer. -- Amir E. Aharoni 11:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Is this really rhotacism or flapping? Is the sound /r/ (the "Italian" "r") or /ɾ/ (the pronunciation of intervocalic "d" and "t" in some American accents that makes "metal" and "medal" homophones)? I am not at all familiar with Neapolitan, but it sounds like this might be flapping rather than true rhotacism. — Paul G 12:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Ethnologue, this article assumes the term applies to the dialects of southern Italy. It therefore overlaps the recently created Southern Italian article, which assumes the term Neapolitan (Napoletano) applies to just Naples. Personally, I prefer the "southern Italian" angle, which is closer to actual linguistics, but such a merger should be discussed. Dionix ( talk) 02:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
According to Unesco , Neapolitan is a language ( http://www.napoli.com/viewarticolo.php?articolo=34942) , why this article is called "Neapolitan dialect" ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanno29 ( talk • contribs) 16:56, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Never mind. The distinction was not stable after several years, so I merged. — kwami ( talk) 07:17, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
No, even by Unesco, the Napolitan variety is recognized as Southern Italian. Not everything that appears on their atlas is a separate language. Dialects are also present in that webpage. Some Greek dialects appear along with other languages (unrelated to Greek) spoken in Greece, for example. Anyway, check how it's recognized as a southern dialect: http://www.unesco.org/languages-atlas/en/atlasmap/language-id-1022.html
The article should be renamed "Napolitan dialect".
124.33.177.82 ( talk) 07:55, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
I am not an expert... but I believe some of the confusion comes from the double meaning of the word “dialetto” in Italian... It could mean either “una varietà di una lingua” (a variety of a [single] language) or “[una] lingua contrapposta a quella nazionale” (a language, as opposed to the national language - referring to a language spoken in the country other than the official one). From a linguistic and practical standpoint, Neapolitan probably wouldn’t be a dialect in the first sense, since someone who speaks only standard Italian can’t simply jump into a conversation in Neapolitan the way an American can jump into a conversation between Australians - it is only partially mutually intelligible with Italian, much like another Romance language not spoken in Italy. Case in point: popular Neapolitan songs often include a “traduzione dal napoletano” into standard Italian on genius.com. That wouldn’t be necessary for a mere dialect (in the first sense)
But it can definitely be “un dialetto” as per the second definition, and that can also include languages like Piedmontese that aren’t even Italo-Dalmatian.
To make matters more complicated... there is a dialect of standard Italian influenced by the Neapolitan language (the Italian Wikipedia has a separate page for it), and in everyday speech, the term “dialetto napoletano” could refer to both the Neapolitan language and to regional standard Italian with a Neapolitan accent.
And on top of that... there are several dialects of Neapolitan itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flexthink ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
I changed the rating of the " Neapolitan language" from C to B, because I find that the article
However, JorisvS reverted the rating to C, explaining "Not really". Opinions? - The Gnome ( talk) 10:19, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Both "Napulitano" and "(’o n)napulitano" are currently unsourced, but at least the latter is consistent with both the explanation in this article and as used at the Neapolitan wiki. The stable version is "nnapulitano", not "Napulitano". @ Alessandro57:, do you have a source for your change? -- JorisvS ( talk) 10:54, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Ferdinado Russo: 'O luciano d' 'o Rre. Page 34. 14th verse. Hope it helps! ;) -- C.R. ( talk) 22:24, 10 December 2014 (UTC)E parlava accussì: napulitano!
I was meaning standardized and scientific form. Anyway, I would challenge the double-n, but unfortunately I need more time digging in the texts, and up to date I can tell you I have no reference. However, the native-language page is not a valid reference, and even more: If you check the history, you will see that it was created and reviewed as 'o napulitano by native speakers, and then changed to 'o nnapulitano by a literated non-native user. Proposal: Since it does not seem even phonetically accurate, and leaving it like this would lead you to drag a (quotation needed) for a long time... while we lost coherence between language articles... I would move it to as a "grammar" curiosity, and leave "napulitano" on the autonym.-- C.R. ( talk) 12:43, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
It has always fascinated me how the French language in particular has been partly absorbed into Neapolitan. Some words are the same, like "buatta" adpted from French "boîte" (box, scatola in Italian). It would be really awesome to find some serious references to this influence, as well as to the Spanish one. Vincenza1950 ( talk) 15:45, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
This article mixes the languoid "Neapolitan" as given in Ethnologue with the languoid "Neapolitan" as described in other linguistic sources, i.e. the languoid spoken in Neaples, or Neapolitan proper ("proper" is used here informally, I know no source making the distinction with "proper" and I know no academic publication using "Neapolitan" for the languoid given in Ethnologue). Please, check the literature: the entire voice is written based on the classification assumptions of Ethnologue, thus breaking the Neutral Point of View policy. I'm not against Ethnologue in principle, I'm just saying that it seems the other academic literature does not use the glossonym the same way as Ethnologue does. This should be mirrored in the article. (P.S. "languoid" and "glossonym" are not my inventions, see Language#Languoid for definitions and references). See the following:
-- SynConlanger ( talk) 11:05, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
--More references are already on the text, you can check them easily... and I propose to remove the "lack of references" tag.-- C.R. ( talk) 12:56, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Language and religion: The Neapolitans speak a Romance language called Neapolitan-Calabreze, which is spoken in three major dialects and many regional varieties. The language is not intelligible to speakers of standard Italian; many of its speakers do not speak the Italian national language, particularly in rural areas. The use of the language remains vigorous, and attempts are under way to standardize its usage and teaching. There is a large amount of literature, written mostly in the Neapolitan dialect. The dialects associated with Neapolitan in the northern regions differ considerably from the Calabreze dialects spoken in Calabria, Basilicata, and Puglia. The other regional dialects are Aquilano, Abruzzese, Pugliese and *Molisano, spoken in the eastern parts of the peninsula. An estimated half the population of the region uses one of local dialects as their fist language.
--James Minahan: Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: L-R., pp.1348, 2002
This reference is previous to Ethnologue, so now you have two references... If you don't like the title of the book it's your problem, the definition of the languoid is quite precise...-- C.R. ( talk) 13:07, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be "gemination"? -- Evertype· ✆ 13:36, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
The Italic languages are these: -GALLO-ITALIAN: Venetian, Romagnolo, Emilian, Lombard, Piedmontese, Ligurian, Friulian -MEDIAN-ITALIAN: course, standard italian, Roman dialect, Umbrian, Tuscan -SOUTH-ITALIAN: Neapolitan, Apulian, Lucanian and Abruzzese -EXTREME SOUTH ITALIAN: sicilian, Calabrian, Salentine -SARDIANIAN In Italy these are the linguistic groups, the Neapolitan is not spoken in Puglia, Abruzzo and Basilicata, only in the Campania region. I'm Apulian and I do not speak Neapolitan, I speak Apulian. They are two distinct languages but belonging to the same family.
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I have never before come across the word sect used as a technical term of linguistics. Does anyone have better information than I have on this matter? It did cross my mind that perhaps the editor who added this word actually meant set. If so, would not group be better? LynwoodF ( talk) 15:22, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Neapolitan language (). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Steel1943 ( talk) 17:51, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
The map is quite nice, but in its current location it’s difficult to compare the the detailed list of dialects/languages. Could we move it next to them and float it to the side? babbage ( talk) 21:04, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
After 5 years I brought this up, this article still relies entirely on the classification by SIL/Ethnologue. The lead section now mentions that in some other contexts Neapolitan refers to the languoid spoken in Naples and surroundings and not to the whole branch, but a reference is not provided (I will take care of adding these, since there are many). Can someone with a background in (Romance) linguistics help? -- SynConlanger ( talk) 23:14, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
I am no linguist. However, in this discussion about the article, please take into consideration
WP:COMMONNAME for the article title (so for example Neapolitan language should be a much better choice than Upper Southern Italian), and
WP:NOTJARGON and
WP:TECHNICAL regarding the content (especially of the lead). For example I disagree with "Neapolitan is the name assigned by SIL/Ethnologue and UNESCO to the Romance varieties spoken in the area of ..."
: Neapolitan language is not defined as "a name", it's "a language" (or "a dialect" I don't want to enter the discussion), and that's the definition that should stay in the lead. --
Ritchie92 (
talk)
11:09, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
( ←) I agree that splitting and cleaning is probably the best action. -- SynConlanger ( talk) 12:54, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
P.S. So, after some thought, I think this article should be renamed to "Upper Southern Italian languages" and we should create another article "Neapolitan language" which refers to the languoid spoken in Naples and Campania (Glottocode: napo1241, no ISO 639-3 code). I explain why.
Given that it looks like the academic references agree on "Upper Southern" I think this should be part of the name of this article. I think "Upper Southern Italian languages" fits well with other articles of the sort. In this article we can then give all the info about classification and group vs unitary language, etc. I don't think having separate articles for 1-4 would follow from the principles of Wikipedia. -- SynConlanger ( talk) 22:29, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
( ←) The statement that the common name in the English-speaking world for the languoid [nap] is "Neapolitan language" is simply false. The comparison with Brexit is unfortunate: the general public talks about Brexit, but not about the languoid [nap]. So COMMONNAME here does not apply. Treccani is an encyclopaedia, so it is a tertiary source, and should not be used as a gold standard. [nap] descends from Latin, directly or indirectly doesn't make any sense whatsoever, it just does discend from Latin (meaning that Latin is the ascestor language of Neapolitan). We now have this article "Neapolitan language". What I am proposing to do is to have instead an article called "Upper Southern Italian languages" for [nap]/[neap1235]/Upper Southern Italian dialects/languages and an article called "Neapolitan language" for [napo1241]. In the former we can detail all the issues with classification and unitary language vs. group. I am opposed to having this article, and article called "Neapolitan dialect" and an article called "Upper Southern Italian languages" for the reasons I have given above. Compare with Gallo-Italic languages, which---since an ISO code for Gallo-Italic does not exist---did not end up being called Milanese language or the like. I refuse to accept the statement that English-speaking people talk about Neapolitan (if they ever do) to mean the things spoken in Campania, Abruzzi, Puglia, etc etc. I will send an email to SIL/Ethnologue now or later to ask what their source is for "Neapolitan/Napoletano-Calabrese". Also, why is this article called Neapolitan when on Ethnologue is actually called Napoletano-Calabrese? -- SynConlanger ( talk) 17:53, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
No Italian person would ever dream to say that for example in Chieti or Bari they speak "dialetto napoletano". That would be preposterous.and I am also not saying this. I am saying that an article named "Neapolitan language" should exist on WP with this title, because it's relevant enough (the language spoken in Naples and its area) to have poetry, novels and plays written in it, and millions of native speakers. Then, I am not against the creation of another article about the group of southern dialects which would include (I guess) Neapolitan as one example. -- Ritchie92 ( talk) 19:52, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
( ←) This is Wikipedia in English so should give precedence to English, not Italian. But that's besides the point now. I don't see why we should have two articles (this one and "Middle Southern Italian dialects") that treat more or less the same languoid [nap/neap1235]. I am opposed to having three articles in total: Neapolitan language, Middle Southern Italian dialects, and Neapolitan dialect. I think two are sufficient. Whatever we want to call those two is a different matter. -- SynConlanger ( talk) 20:32, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
this article is not about "dialetto napoletano" is about what academic references refer to as "Upper Southern Italian dialects"but now they say that
the grammar described in this article is that specific of the "parlata di Napoli e Campania" and not of for example "dialetto barese". Just to boost the hopes to end this discussion soon, can we have a clear statement about (a) moving this article to "upper southern", or (b) creating a new "upper southern" article with parts taken from this article (that would then be removed from here)? -- Ritchie92 ( talk) 10:12, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
P.S. The confusion also stems from the fact that this article is confused. The sections Alphabet and pronunciation and Grammar of this article clearly describe the grammar of the parlata of Naples/Campania, which is different from the grammar for example of Barese. To achieve a status with two articles as I propose (one for the higher-level languoid [nap/neap1245] and one for the parlata di Napoli, plus others about other parlate if necessary) we can actually do any combination of split and renaming, so it makes it difficult to explain. What we should agree on is the end product, rather than how to get there. And the end product is one article about [nap/neap1245] and one about the parlata di Napoli with info on alphabet and grammar. -- SynConlanger ( talk) 12:53, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
I changed the glottoname in the InfoBox. It assigned the glossonym "Neapolitan" to Glottocode [neap1235], but the glossonym assigned to that code on Glottolog is "Continental Southern Italian" and not "Neapolitan". If you search "Neapolitan" on Glottolog using the search field, what you get is "No matching languoids found for name part "neapolitan"". The glossonym "Napoletano" is assigned to the code [napo1241] and is a sub-languoid of the languoid "Central Southern Italian [neap1235]". -- SynConlanger ( talk) 10:20, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
This article mixes up three discrete languoids: 1) the very Neapolitan language, which was co-official (besides Latin) within the Kingdom of Naples in 1442–1501, and was then largely spoken in that Kingdom until Italian unification; 2) the intermediate southern Italian dialects (the map actually refers to them), which stem straightforwardly from Latin and not from the Neapolitan language; 3) the Neapolitan dialect currently spoken within the metropolitan city of Naples. I would therefore propose splitting the current article into three ones, similarly to what Italian Wikipedia does ( it:Lingua napoletana, it:Dialetti italiani meridionali, it:Dialetto napoletano).-- 3knolls ( talk) 06:25, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Notwithstanding the time and effort that SynConlanger went to above in explaining and documenting the facts, the article treats readers to first this (with completely inappropriate references):
then this (with no references):
Reality is the opposite: the Romance languages spoken across much of southern Italy go by various names, but no respectable linguist would use Neapolitan/napoletano as a serious cover term for that vast variety; linguists refer to the language of Naples as Neapolitan/napoletano. While once upon a time a very broad unscientific, impressionistic and inaccurate usage of napoletano could be found even in the works of some well-meaning linguists, that time is gone. That that sort of usage remains in the lexicon of some naive native speakers of Italian should be reported here (and the unfortunate UNESCO usage explained), but should not be presented as standard usage, no more than dolphin should be left officially labeled fish. Barefoot through the chollas ( talk) 16:23, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
I have seen that people in my zone, bordering with Campania, acknowledge their dialect as belonging to the Neapolitan’s family, even without having linguistic notions. It may not be the same in a region like Apulia though. The term Parthenopean is commonly used to reference what relates to the city of Naples, as opposed to the Kingdom of Naples as a whole. We could therefore distinguish the Neapolitan language page from the Parthenopean dialect one. Zagreides ( talk) 19:36, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
So I was reading Molise's page in English, and the page gives the pronunciation for the region's name in... Neapolitan. I was like, what the? I click on Neapolitan, and I find out... That this page is the stuff of nightmares. Not even a single soul in the scientific literature calls Southern Italo-Romance 'Neapolitan'. No. one. Where does this definition even come from? Neapolitan is just one of the Southern Italo-Romance languages. This page's quality is really below zero - and I am afraid that my students will learn wrong things from it. Wikipedia is truly influential - please do a better job. Ophoryce ( talk) 11:23, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
This discussion has been repeated over and over for months. Why doesn't someone start a move request? So this matter will finally be sorted out. Yakme ( talk) 12:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Currently, the article claims the they become lenis voiced after a nasal and remain fortis voiceless everywhere else. I don't know how representative the pronunciation of popular singers is, but my impression is that they can have both pronunciations in all positions. Perhaps these stops are lenis with variable voicing? 89.64.69.62 ( talk) 22:40, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. However, while support did not emerge for moving the existing article to the proposed title, there does appear to be a rough consensus that a content split would be helpful for distinguishing the language of the immediate Naples area from the broader category of Southern Italian languages and dialects. ( non-admin closure) ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 16:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Neapolitan language → Southern Italian languages – By looking at this talk page (see [3], [4], [5], [6]), it seems that it could be helpful if we let the community discuss in an orderly way about whether to move the content of this article (or significant parts of it) to " Southern Italian languages" (or " Southern Italian dialects", please state and motivate your preference). The main issue is that currently this article appears to be about an overlap of two or more languoids, which makes a WP:PRECISE title hard to assess. Therefore, a content split could be performed, e.g. keeping Neapolitan language or Neapolitan dialect as the article containing what is strictly related to the language spoken in the area of Naples and Campania. Please motivate your statements and keep in mind WP:NPOV, WP:OR and WP:V. Yakme ( talk) 11:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Steel1943 ( talk) 21:06, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
As has been said quite a few times already, calling all dialetti alto-meridionali "Neapolitan language" is highly problematic from a linguistic perspective. The confusion stems from the fact that the ISO-639-3 code for this language continuum / group of dialects is "nap" and Glottocode labels it "Neapolitan" for lack of a better word. This goes against the consensus in Romance linguistics, that call these dialetti (local lects that are not local dialects of Italian, as per the Italian sociolinguistic definition) . Napoletano/napulitano/Neapolitan is only the dialetto of the city of Naples. Sources:
I know this has been said a million times, but the news is that even UNESCO has now stopped calling ISO-693-3 "Neapolitan" and calls it "Continental Southern Italian": https://en.wal.unesco.org/languages/continental-southern-italian.
I think this is enough to reopen the move discussion? We could follow UNESCO nomenclature and invert the redirect from Continental Southern Italian. CRYptex talk 18:36, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
I tend to be in favor with Ergo Sum's reasoning. One addition: should we keep using the template of "[...] language" for the title? In that case the proposals would be Continental Southern Italian language or Southern Italo-Romance language. Yakme ( talk) 12:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
1) Neapolitan is not Italo-Dalmatian. For the love of God. 2) Neapolitan is spoken in Naples. Elsewehere in Campania other closely related languages are spoken 3) Neapolitan is not spoken in Abruzzo, Apulia, Marche, Calabria, etc. The author is confusing Southern Italo-romance with Neapolitan. Just plain wrong! 4) The section on articles was contradictory, and it showed articles with the lateral. It has been amended. Please check the scientific literature before writing, or these pages become a joke. Ophoryce ( talk) 16:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)